Paul Good Recordings : Tape 5 : Transcript

Collection:: Civil Rights Library of St. Augustine
Title:: Paul Good Recordings : Tape 5 : Transcript
Date of Original:: 1964
Subject:: Civil rights--United States--Florida
People:: Boyte, Harry G., 1911-
Hayling, Robert Bagner
King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968
Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011
White, Lee
Johnson, Lyndon B. (Lyndon Baines), 1908-1973
Young, Andrew, 1932-
Shelley, Joseph, 1915-2007
Location:: United States, Florida, 28.75054, -82.5001
Medium:: transcripts
Type:: Text
Format:: application/pdf
Description:: This is a transcript of the fifth in the series of journalist Paul Good's tape recordings in St. Augustine during the summer of 1964. This tape consists of four parts: Part 1: Martin Luther King, Jr. speaking to a mass meeting (00:00:04); Part 2: Unidentified speakers addressing a mass meeting (00:02:35); Part 3: Paul Good interviewing Andrew Young (00:06:08); Part 4: Paul Good interviewing Martin Luther King, Jr. (00:18:57)
Paul Good Recordings : Transcript for Tape 5 Part 1: Martin Luther King, Jr. speaking to a mass meeting (00:00:09) Martin Luther King, Jr.: …and creatively making it clear as we're singing our song that you aren't going to let anybody turn you around. And this was a beautiful witness and it took courage. It took a fearless quality. It took a heroic quality and so I want to commend you, the heroes of St. Augustine for carrying out this struggle the way you have carried it out and the way you are carrying it out now. You are proving to be the creative spiritual anvil that will wear out many physical hammer and pretty soon the Klan will see that and they’ll come to see that all of their methods and all of their violence will not stop us. For we are on the way to freedom land, and we don't mean to stop until we get there. We’re going all the way. [Applause] They think that this will stop the movement. I got word way out in California, that a plan was underway, a plot was underway, to take my life in St. Augustine, Florida. Well, if physical death is a price that I must pay to free my white brothers and all of my brothers and sisters from a permanent death of the spirit, then nothing can be more redeeming. [Applause] [Unintelligible] we’ve long since learned to sing anew with our foreparents of old, “Before I’ll be a slave, I'll be buried in my grave and go home to my Father and be saved.” [Singing] Part 2: Unidentified speakers addressing a mass meeting (00:02:51) Unidentified Speaker One:“[Unintelligible] and said to me that, “You’ve only been in the house now in the city just a couple of hours or so, left last week, last Wednesday night to New York City and San Francisco, San Diego and back to San Francisco and down to Los Angeles and then over to Fresno and back to Los Angeles and then to Phoenix and then to Chicago and then to Atlanta. And with just a few hours in the city of Atlanta you are now going to take a flight down to St. Augustine, Florida.” She said, “Some time ago I raised this question with you and I want to raise it with you again. And I think about your family, me, and the children and I think about your church congregation and I think about you and I think about your health, I wonder are you really that dedicated or are you just a damn fool?” [Laughter] Well, this afternoon when we took our flight out of the airport in Atlanta, the flight was crowded, and we could not have seats together, so this gave me the opportunity to ponder this question over and over again. And as this jet made its way from Atlanta into Jacksonville, I thought and pondered over this question, “Are you really that dedicated or are you just a fool?” And I almost decided that it was the latter, until I came into this church and had the privilege again of looking into your faces and I know that it is not the latter. I only pray and I only hope that it is the first, that I am dedicated. If not, I pray that God will enable me to be dedicated, because I know that the clock of time is faster ticking out and America does not have much time left. Unidentified Speaker Two: And Lady Bird and I, we are from the same state. [Applause] And it was a Negro woman, a Negro woman that gave Lady Bird her name. That's a mighty fine name, Lady Bird. I want Lady Bird and LBJ to do something about the people who gave Lady Bird her name. Part 3: Paul Good interviewing Andrew Young (00:06:23) Paul Good:What is the biggest thing that inspired them to continue that march into what seemed like certain violence? Andrew Young: I don't know and I think this is one of the things that as a minister I just retreat and say that somehow God got ahold of 'em. I don't think it was a rational decision, nor was it an emotional decision in the sense of, that they were excited or whipped up in any way, but I think it was a profound spiritual decision that they made or that grabbed them or gripped them and I don't understand this any more than you do, I guess. Paul Good: Do you think that the basic faith of southern Negroes and God is vital to the movement? Andrew Young: Oh I'd say that this is the basis of it. Especially in dangerous areas like St. Augustine or over in Mississippi. There is and has been a profound faith that has helped Negroes to get through all along. And without this I don't think we could have, I wouldn't feel free to encourage people to take these dangers unless there was a great deal of faith on my part. Paul Good: As you walked down the street that night that you can remember, what were your thoughts? Were you praying or how did it go for you personally? Andrew Young: Well I think I was perhaps more calm than I've ever been, because I had a feeling that when the majority, I think, if you make a decision on your own you can always question it or doubt it, but when hundreds of people make the same decision with you, there came over me a feeling of peace and contentment that even if we were going to death, this was a decision in which God was involved in and it would work out all right. Paul Good: Do you have any theory on why the whites didn't move? Andrew Young: I have two. One is that they were awestruck by the quiet and the prayer and the dignity of the procession and then the other is quite cynical, that they were operating on orders from the local police. And I don't know which is which. I would imagine that both might be true. Paul Good: Do you feel that the local police and the county police are in fact intimidated by the Klan or infected by the Klan? Andrew Young: Well I don't know, say, that the county police are in control of the Klan. Paul Good: It’s hard to say which is in control of which? Andrew Young: Yeah, that I really think that certainly local authorities in St. Augustine attempted to use the Klan-like element in town to control and curtail demonstrations. Paul Good: Well, now given this situation which doesn't show any immediate signs of changing, and given the attitude by city officials, well, one question, let me put this in right here. The city manager told us yesterday that the Negroes have not, Negro leadership had not approached him to try to arrange any conference, any talk back and forth, is that right? Now he said that you were in his office along with Harry Boyte last week. But that you were there simply to declare what you were going to do, not to ask for a meeting of minds? Andrew Young: Yes, we haven't made any contacts yet, mainly because every time we made contacts and attempted, they assume that it's because we're weak and we're running out and I think that our policy has been that there's got to be some neutral person to serve as a mediator. We've always let everybody know that we're willing to negotiate, to talk at any time. I went up to the man personally yesterday as soon as, after the judge annouced this, asked us to have a moratorium. I asked Mayor Shelley, “Wouldn’t it be possible for us to use this six to eight days creatively in negotiation and dialogue?” And he said, “Well, what do you want me to do?” And I said, “Well, if you would call together the restaurant owners and the motor court operators and just get them to sit down with one or two of us and talk about the situation.” I said “I'm sure they’re reasonable men. We will be reasonable men and I’m sure that this whole situation could be resolved without further demonstrations. He said, “Well, why don't you go to them.” He said, “I'm a public official and I don't want to be in the middle of it.” Now, he is in the middle of it as an elected official and the problem is that without the backing of the political power structure and the police forces, I would think that the merchants in this community would be afraid to move too far. Paul Good: Well alright, now given this three-pronged situation, the police force either intimidated or infiltrated by the Klan, city officials who refuse to take any active part in arranging conferences between the Negro and white communities, and the fact that business men feel intimidated and with no leadership coming from city hall refuse to act on their own. How can you see the situation in St. Augustine being resolved? Andrew Young: I don't know yet. There are several possibilities for outside help. There was a fella down here from the Justice Department, I don't know what he was doing. I know him and I’m sure if there was anybody, if he talked to any people in the white community that wanted to talk, he would feel free to call me up and we would get some people together. There are also some people within the Negro community that have pretty good relationships with individual white merchants and we're going to have them make some contacts. And I think any time anybody in the white community wanted to get on the phone and set up a conference, they all know Dr. Hayling's address and phone number. And it would just be a matter of a phone call and we would be anxious to respond. Paul Good: Well, now this of course, as all this is off the record, unless any part of it you want it on, numerous whites have told us that a stumbling block here is represented by the person of Dr. Hayling, that they refuse to treat with him and they cite various things that he allegedly said and did with them in the past. Would there ever be the possibility you suppose of different leadership coming in here or by taking Dr. Hayling out would that seem to be a retreat on the part of the movement? Andrew Young:Well I think, that everywhere we've been, we’ve had this, that Birmingham wanted to negotiate, but they refused to negotiate with Fred Shuttlesworth. In Albany they wanted to negotiate but, at times they didn't want to talk with Slater King or Dr. Anderson. That what you’ll always find in every Southern town is that the one leader that starts, gets blasted as being a rabble rouser and irresponsible and they almost never want to deal with him and yet he is the one that probably has made all of the initial sufferings to bring things this far and he is the one that the people respect, so that any negotiations that take place with anybody other than him is really ridiculous, because he has the attention and the ear of the people. Now I think that there may be some ways that we can work around this. I think it’s not necessary for him to be be in on everything but as the local community leader he would have to approve of almost any terms of negotiation and frankly Dr. Hayling is perhaps a much more reasonable man, much more rational man than most of the kinds of local leaders. Usually you have to be, well to really stir up a town, you have to have a certain, almost, I use neurotic advisedly, that you have to be kind of crazy to take on a Bull Connor. And for Fred Shuttlesworth to just get so upset that he had to buck the whole Birmingham power structure, it takes a certain kind of aggressive explosive personality to do this and we realize the difficulties in negotiating with this kind of personality, but at the same time if you look back in the history, all of your leaders and especially all your prophetic leadership, it comes out of this type of person. So that, but you'll also find that as soon as there is some kind of response from the white community, that this person doesn't want to be this way. That if Dr. Hayling was very mean and bitter, it was because he'd been beaten by the Klan, and if any white businessman downtown had been beaten up by a group of Negroes, he would be impossible to negotiate with too. Paul Good: You know the city manager charged us yesterday, that Dr. Hayling had deliberately entered the Klan meeting and had not been dragged in by the Klansmen. Andrew Young: Well actually what happened was, they were driving around there and driving around to see what was going on and some Klansmen got behind them and there was a Klan car in front and Klan car behind kind of jamming them in and they turned off the road trying to get away from these cars and actually speeded up a little bit before they realized where they were. They were on a road that was leading into the Klan meeting and couldn't find a way to turn around, so they were, when they stopped, they were pulled from their cars and dragged into the Klan meeting. Paul Good: Okay Reverend Young I'd like to ask you this last thing. This will just be for the record because we might use this on radio today. As the situation now stands with a Federal judge in Jacksonville going to mull over the weekend a decision whether or not to permit night marches, and whether to rescind the St. Augustine curfew on teenagers, things seem somewhat in abeyance as far as the movement goes here. Dr. King is coming into town tonight of course. What do you see, what direction do you see the movement taking in the next few days? Andrew Young: Well I'd say possibly two or three possibilities. One is that some really meaningful negotiations might begin and this is always an important part of a non-violent movement. The second is that we would have an increase of day-time activity if the negotiations aren’t possible. That we would begin to do more picketing, picketing with larger numbers of people, that we would increase our sit-ins and we'll carry on in early morning and day-time movement. This will be much easier now because school closes today. It was difficult to do anything other than at night. Also with school closing we'll have college people available and there are several groups from New England, from New Haven, Yale students. There’s a, the chaplin of Amherst College is here now with one or two students. There's a group from Boston University that's willing to come down and we could carry on as extensive a day-time movement as we had night-time movement last week. Paul Good: Have you any idea the numbers that might be coming from the north? Andrew Young: No, and I think this sort of depends on us, and they’re waiting to hear from us in terms of how many we need. Paul Good:Do you have anything concrete on which to base the possibility of some kind of meetings between city officials and the group? Andrew Young: No, we really don't. I think the press here has been acting sort of as messenger carriers back and forth as they talk to us and talk to them. And this is always one stage that you go through. I'm going to make a few phone calls this morning and see if I can’t see some people individually and have some of the other members in the Negro community see if they can do this. Paul Good: For the first time you do feel at least hope even though there’s nothing concrete on which to base it, base that there might be a meeting of minds? Andrew Young: Well I think we oughtta to see this as a blessing, that we have six days in which there could be a meeting of minds. If there is, if there is no meeting of minds during these six days, I think it means almost a total non-violent war from here on and we don't want to do that and I don't think St. Augustine businessmen want that and so I think that the alternatives to negotiations are so fearful for both of us that this will encourage us to go ahead. Part 4: Paul Good interviewing Martin Luther King, Jr. (00:18:56) Paul Good: Reverend King, given the near violence in recent days and the fact that the Ku Klux Klan is exceedingly active in St. Augustine, do you intend to continue with the demonstrations? Martin Luther King, Jr.: Oh, very definitely. We are determined to carry on this struggle in St. Augustine until the conditions there are rectified and until we can bring about a meaningful settlement. We are determined to see that segregation is broken down in the major hotels and motels of that city as well as the restaurants and also to gain better employment opportunities for Negroes and to get Negro policemen. Paul Good:Do you have a plan in case the judge fails to issue an injunction against the demonstration ban? Martin Luther King, Jr.: No, we’ll face that when we come to it. We expect that decision to come through in the next few days and after the decision is rendered, then we will determine our course of action. Paul Good: Has the White House been in contact with you Reverend King regarding this? Martin Luther King, Jr.: Yes, I’ve been in touch with the White House several times since last week and I have been assured that they will keep their eyes on the situation and that they are working to see that there will not be a breakdown of law and order in the community. Paul Good: Did you talk personally with President Johnson? Martin Luther King, Jr.: No, I did not. At the time President Johnson was in Texas, but he had just communicated with his special assistant, Mr. Lee White, and asked him to stay in close touch with me and the situation and I’ve talked with Mr. White on three different occassions since that time and he said the President is very concerned about the situation and is keeping in close touch with him. Paul Good: Have you mentioned the fact that when President Johnson was Vice President he promised to try and establish a dialogue between white and Negroes in St. Augustine? Martin Luther King, Jr.: No, I have not presented that to the President yet. I plan to do it next week. And I think that we should get a real response from the President on this because I know he is concerned. Paul Good: Will you try to communicate with the Archbishop in St. Augustine? Martin Luther King, Jr.:Well I don’t have any definite plans on that now, but as the days unfold we will be communicating with several levels of leadership, the commission that’s planning the Quadricentennial, including Henry Ford, the president of the University Pittsburgh and others. We will ask them to support us in these efforts and we will also get in touch with foreign nations that will be participating in this occasion, so that we hope to bring a great deal of pressure to bear on the community to do something about the problem. Paul Good: After you left St. Augustine last week, the beach house in which you had been staying was riddled with shotgun and rifle blasts. Do you intend number one, to return to that same house, and number two, Reverend King, do you have any personal fear for your safety? Martin Luther King, Jr.: Well, I haven’t made a definite decision about returning to the beach house. We will decide that later this evening. I have lived with these problems a long time now. And I live almost every day under the threat of death and I’m sure if I thought about it all of the time I wouldn’t be able to do anything. I’d be completely immobilized, so I move on in the faith that this is a righteous cause and that I am giving my service to something that will ultimately triumph and I am consoled by that, rather than going into all situations with a deep sense of fear. Paul Good: What’s your reaction to a statement by St. Augustine mayor Joseph Shelley that you came to St. Augustine merely for publicity purposes? Martin Luther King, Jr.: I’ve never been in a movement yet when the local leadership and the power structure did not raise this question, so I don’t respond to that. I’m sure that we are here for very serious and sincere motives. Paul Good: Will you try to speak with the mayor? Martin Luther King, Jr.: Yes, I plan to speak with him next week anyway if I don’t see him this week. End of recording.
Ku Klux Klan -- St. Augustine Quadricentennial Commission -- Attack on Beach Cottage Safe House -- Civil Rights Rally -- Klan Assault on Robert Hayling -- St. Augustine Quadricentennial Celebration -- Night March
Metadata URL:: http://civilrights.flagler.edu/cdm/ref/collection/p16000coll5/id/112
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Extent:: 10 pages
Contributing Institution:: Proctor Library
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