Stanley Bullock : Transcribed Interview

Collection:: Civil Rights Library of St. Augustine
Title:: Stanley Bullock : Transcribed Interview
Creator:: Bullock, Stanley
Contributor to Resource:: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, University of Florida
Date of Original:: 1978-01-17
Subject:: Civil rights--United States--Florida
People:: Bullock, Stanley
Seymour, Charles
Peabody, Mary E. (Mary Elizabeth), 1891-1981
King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968
Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011
Williams, Hosea, 1926-2000
Vivian, C. T.
Young, Andrew, 1932-
Gannon, Michael, 1945-
Location:: United States, Florida, 28.75054, -82.5001
Medium:: transcripts
Type:: Text
Format:: application/pdf
Description:: Interview with Stanley Bullock, who became the Rector of Trinity Episcopal Church in 1964. He begins with his appointment to the congregation of Trinity how he began when St. Augustine was in the midst of the civil rights movement. He details the demographics of the church, how it was mainly upper-class citizens who were generally conservative. He states why the churches were reluctant to get involved in the movement, therefore when Mrs. Peabody attempted to attend services, she was locked out for fear of drawing the demonstrations inside. At the end he gives his opinion on King's involvement in St. Augustine and the impact it had on the city.
CRSTA 4AB Subject: Rev. Stanley Bullock 1-17-78 0 S: (tape in progress)·:.~. I had done it, say Mission, ,4ay St. Francis of 1>· ('.•\'·\, .. ,. ,··~~ . Assisi and-.those-previ:ous, for three years. =r-"''~ (. ~~\!"".( } "l And r.bec~me rector of Trinity Church in St. Augustine when Charles Seymour called me to be his assistant. Uniquely enough, the date of our arrival to take that job to start work, was the first of April, 1964, which was the same day that Mrs. Peabody arrived at the front door of Trinity Chur.ch 1 which was obviously a big moment. I: How did you, how did he happen to call you? Did he know you? He must have known you. S: Yes. I had grown up in the diocese. I was a product of the diocese. I grew up here in Jacksonville. This is my home. I went to public school here. I worked here for awhile before going into the service 'A and went on to the University of Florida where the ~anee and the Diocese are. My first choice was Pensacola ••. I: How did you ••• S: He had known me since I was a child. I: Really. Well, so there was, my next question was there any turmoil when you arrived but I (laughter)) obviously there was a great deal. S: Well, there was turmoil before I arrived. I, you know, as an aside to the whole thing, on the day, on the first of April, my wife, Kay, -:::, and I were driving from Pensacola to St. Augustine 1making the move, and we were about half way across the state somew~ere ,ar.ound, oh 1 I Dn -h:..c (' ! ·-'-""' guess half way up around Madison, when we heardftwhat was happening in St. Augustine. And so I spoke to Kay and said'you know sounds like J CRSTA 4AB Page 2 CTM v,:c it's getting hot down there. You really don't have to go. We can 11 I go back to where we came from. She said1no, that's the commitment we made and we will go on.I I So, we weren 1 t about to turn around anyway, but the comment was made that maybe we ought not to go there. I: Did Father Seymour, had he said anything about any problems when you were considering the job? J: v·lv-:> r· .. )c-rc. S: That there were tensions there1 but not, I don't think anybody knew f) to what degree they were going -------- I: Do you think that, did he mention any concerns within the church itself? S: Yes, I was aware that they were internal problems. I: Would you care to elaborate on them? S: Not greatly. Every clergymen has those persons in his congregation were some in that congregation that felt that way. I: Would you care to talk about the make-up of the church. I jotted down some points.,....economically, racially, philosophically? S: It's very hard for me to remember it, numbers specifically. But basically l '.}C"- ~) the congregation rs made up of upper-middle-class to upper class in terms of the city of St. Augustine, socio-economic groups. It was an all-white congregation as it probably still is today. I don't know the breakdown but I suspect that it is. In terms of age, it was pretty ~!_lJ:;p-,1r1)~,;\,\ 1:;.f well distributed, representative of the community. yoti ttBGW St. Augustine is more given toward the older or retired age group than it is to the very young. And so representative of the community, I think it was. _J CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 3 Basically conservative. One or two more liberally-oriented lines but primarily conservative in all outlooks. I would not say ultra-conservative because I reserve that particular category for those that are much further to the right. They are basically conservative, politically, economically, religiously. Not terribly interested in change. Not terribly interested in being disturbed. Really, that's one of the facts about St. Augustine, I think in lots of other cities like that, that people gradually move to those area/where there is going to be less disturbance of any aspect of life. And they settle C"' ~> (~-c ;\.\ t :. "- \_ :· :· there because that is the case in dfe area. People who are looking for change, I'm speaking of any kind of change, go to the metropolitan '{'{' b S: There were those. There were those t;ha.t: had been in St. Augustine probably since the period of the, traced from the age from the period of the British occupation there. Perhaps some who could trace it back as early as the Spanish, came out of a particular congregation. ~· But there were also people who were brand newf, Been there only a few months or a couple or three years}, ~?' If you have only been in a city like St. Augustine for three, four or five years, you are brand new. I: Was there, was the vestry pretty representative of the congregation in terms of economics, philosophy? Here's a list of the names that CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 4 I guess signed that resolution. S: Right. Yes. I would say so. As I look down it, I see one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, I see seven businesi"'men. And of those seven -.../ businessmen, one, two, three, four, four of them own their own businesses, business owners. One of those persons is a civil service person working for the county. Another one is an insurance salesman) ~relatively successful one. A third one is a representative of a large clothing line, a very elite clothing line. middle-class economy/ certainly. So, they were representative of the .., ....... I see on here also a newspaper man u of some significance in this community. There is an officer in the National Guard. I'm not sure if he was field-graded at that point f\-. ;::N ,,..,,~ -.N ( • .- but he was ~g toward that direction. ¥:o.u have also, one or two retired persons, represented here. And we have the man who was inde-pendent in terms of his financial structure. I'd say pretty much so • ..:E-~~ bn terms of age also, it was relatively well distributed. I: Was there any sense why you did arrive at the time things were really beginning to, were beginning to get tense? Did you sense that there was any of these problems would, I guess not you 1 but did you hear of anything from the congregation as a whole that they sensed that St. Augustine was going to be a focus of these demonstrations? S: Yes, this was, this was pretty much understood, all the way along because St. Augustine was in the process of developing a new board to celebrate itls four hundredth anniversary. And they knew at that '-' time that this was a natural focal point. '\'"' -\T> \_-,c_ (£,.~·Le•.' ... '.., So there was that ~ of the city. There were some other things too that made St. Augustine .._,,~-,,,~\'(}·! 1 . I in my estimation,-::;tl're foe~~ ~1 this whole thing. It responded as-±n. \ \ l (>rC..<-ol'.<(•., I the media.1 ;mfey_.,,.. 1< \·.l c") • •;ri_ I expect the media here is the kind CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 5 that responds everytime. St. Augustine would do exactly the same thing each time. You could depend on it, the response. So, if you were going to stage a demonstration with the least potential damage to personal property, generally speaking, St. Augustine would be a pretty good place to do it. It was an enclosed city in terms of natural geographic factors. There was the bay on the east which closed off into the ocean itself which closed the natural boundary on the south. And there was a creek that ran up the west side which was a long marshy creek, a natural boundary on the western side of the city. And the access in from the north of the city was bounded by highway which actually split but there was only one basic highway. So, you had a peninsulaCsort of situation with natural geographic boundaries on three sides and a limited access at the top. So, you could keep your area well defined. It didn't spread out into a very large area. So, geographically, it was desirable. As I said/the response of the people and the law enforcement agencies and everything else was significant, so you might note it. So, from that standpoint, it was the place that would be, certainly if you were selecting various places where they would get the best environment and response, St. Augustine was of that nature. And we anticipated that there would be some ~ifficulties. I: I want¥~ to talk to you about that response in just a minute but wouldn't, before that I'd like to talk to you about Father Sumo, what sort of man did you find him to be? How would you characterize him? -::r:. '" J::ic .'.· ·:,-·· S: Oh, my. I must tell you first that·f,:fuunti the man1 \r<-<'-\k1 ''"~ • I've known this man for years and years and I respect him f ~e was then and c;.:, .. Q is now, I suspect, a churchman of the older school that in this day j,rr time cannot be totally tn1derstood yet he was completely comnitted. And CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 6 as I suspect, he still is, to that fonn of the church and that ex-pression of worship of the Episcopal church that he had been trained \,.... s ,.\ • 0-.,_)C\'-' '.';•} '~ ,(' \ in and was his -hi \...>,,~ \r~. . He was llllder great tension\.. both from the congregation, members of the congregation, I should say, who were fC' ('~:T putting pressure on him because of the stand he was taking as a .pe-rsen-of the church. And this was difficult for him to live with because \"IC wr-:._5. these were the people~charged to care for. On the other hand, there were those outside of the St. Augustine situation who were viewing it through the eyes of the press and the media generally 1and they too were highly critical of what he was doing in some instances 1and they didn't help tremendously in supporting him. So here is a man who is caught between both of these pressure points , who in each instance was doing the very best he could as he sensed the situation upon the grotmd upon which he stood. So he was a man that was trying very - Q.y-\J. _, hard\~ with real sincerity and I think __ ' ___ _ and I did not ,·~·-... , \ .. -:·/ v-J c... \I ever feel that he was being,~you know, insincere in the things that ~e stood for and stood for the-wlricte --; ------ And yet, how ..0 much can --------- he was surely going to get Mlack _\\.,,..,,., ,,,.,._, - ,0~-J .:'.\r• And this is a very debilitating kind of position ~\ ,_-;t \," r-,•';' ~ -~ ' to be in. He was a good and strong man, I think, through1~all of the situations that we encountered. And yet when the time came for him to receive a call from another parish, which he did, he felt that he couldn't take that call and relieve himself of ~;)'ov b-.c,,.J ,Y..-<.._\...JfQ,_.,,,__'.'.) here. He was not running from it but certainly when you have been through as difficult a situation as he had existed through, there comes a time when you can say1\I have done my job to the best of my • 1 iJ L~ ( 1-- o~-\-{,,,:.--r\' -1 \"""-("--'\ ;ii) "'I, ~ r ability and I believe this ------------· a s0\, 6 man :::::- I // a good man --------------------~ CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 7 I: Did he have a good rapor with the congregation before this occurred? S: With individuals in the congregation, there had been some difficulty in the past. The details of that, I do not know but I know that there had been some difficulty within the group there. hC- 1: How long had~u been there before? S: I'm not sure exactly when he came. I can find out from •••• I: I can find out from him1 \~-:ct''·-'C \ ~-::,:• · S: Right. \)~{) '.-.1 \ ,<._.:, { I..__.. OY"\ I: When-yott talk about the, one more thing about the church1per se, then we'll stick to the general community for awhile, you said something about the vestry and I wanted to bring it up. I jotted it down at the end here. But there was a characterization made of the vestries in general of the community and the characterization was made by one person that they were extremely conservative, very much active in such groups as Kiwanis, Rotary1 and also either active or behind-thescene supporters of the citizerls council sort of thing which the f citizerls council really doesn't emerge as a formal group until late/ but philosophically· speaking, they were of this ••• S: I would say that that would be the case. When we are speaking of I: S: vestries in general, you are talking about the board of trustees of any of the churches in the community. Right. Yeah, I would think generally speaking that was the case. And again/ looking over these people in this specific group here, out of the one, two, three, four, five, six, seven,eight, nine, ten, eleven, S/.-.'( \ fv D~I- .': :..I\ _,.t.,,-.---... \-\:-.,u\••\ -·,- :- , \ i• .\- ~ ~, f A ( · IJ. _c.J> --C\{') c \} twelve, out of those twelve menf I would say half of them fall in the I category of being specifically being sympathetic to th$s~ white citizeris council philosophy. The other six would have remained CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 8 . neutral by virtue of being \IC\Sl11\c),,'-'• anyway/ or we have specifically ~Q ;~,,.( said no to that philosophy of the church. 7hat particular group, I su· 1·:-'i would ~f~ that way. I: This gives some understanding at least to why their response may be predictable, or the community's response might be predictable. But :S:-<· , __ , \ ,(-, there are some~~-t-herqualifications that emerge in my mind looking at the St. Augustine list. residential integration. There was a rather surprising amount of -lu._, There was y:move by the community itself, while not substantial in size, a move to voluntarily integrate ic-'s schools. And there was also the heavy dependence on tourism, something like 85 percent of the wealth in the community was dependent one way or another, on the tourist industry. What makes/in your mind, this ·response predictable, given all of these sort of qualifications? S: It's very hard to say because Atlanta, at about the same time, was undergoing a similar pressure. But the business community in Atlanta.6 recognized the fact that their business was going to be jeopardized/ and so very quickly during that period, Atlanta accommodated one way or another, so that this was quickly leveled off. In St. Augustine, (\ I ' ·,I/ < L r~u-"- 1 1 "'-1 ~'·' '"'· ...... again we\de-il~e lion a very small town and we are dealing with persons who are perhaps more independently-minded than those persons in a more metropolital area, who feel like a responsibility to and for the peopl? who are up and down the street. Or they feel like we are part c,:;, c~"\Cc0 ~ , of a whole group and we have got to hang together,} Many of the people in St. Augustine who are businessmen, were ~ independently~minded and they were sufficiently committed to what they believed 1 whether it be right or wrong, to jeopardize their businesses 1if necessary1 i"n -fc.\~ V··l c. cc, c,.. c ,;«J .. c~'-· order to win what they t-RGu.ght woaldbe ef some significance to them. CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 9 And therefore, rather than giving in to the pressures, they would \/'} C \{_ :~. .,,-..~"")( ( t"" ·"'\ °"~ -J .. c.. . C~O t'i (I • I I oppose on each occasion that they· , c.t. 1'\- \'1 t,.._ "', That s why I say that it's predictable. That is one of the reasons that \~I'.-!.~ I say it. And the predictability who couhi be right because as the sunnner wore on, and we moved on down into June and July, August months, of course July was a watershed-time because by that time ~f.'1v:: .... I the Supreme court had made a kind of. decision concerning the issues that were at stake in St. Augustine. But there was still an after-wash of the response and the resentment to response.· We had had the first wave of the activities in the spring. By the time we got down into the summer months, it was a slightly different kind of pressure J.-Lt.. by that time. And the pressure was not so much~more·localized people involved as it was the continued resurgence of people flowing through the city. This sounds like an oversimplification 1 and perhaps there was some degree a feeling that this is the year b~il. it may be )-tnat -r\~ (. ( th1"l"t all of us should be involved in some way in this) f-'lld to take our stand and show our position. And the way we could do it, is to come to St. Augustine and do our thing. I: Whatever side you were on. S: Yes, certainly. Exactly right. And that is important to recognize. j ' 'i.) <)r . It was not ,Y'Jf!Sr Dn'~ ';>\'2,v,i'.f,,\f';.'~,,,.~(.':) '-~" And from one side however, t \ .. -, -\-.I '"·'\ a~d I have no documentation to support this, I have rumor and comment :i~-,·'< from people~who I think knew what they were talking about by virtue of the fact that they were involved to some degree. This was the same c,__S time we were preparing persons to work in the Delta ministry. ,.D6 you I recall 1that activity in the lower Mississippi area. It was a time for r c \f:\~~,, ~oter registration and things of that sort, which were highly resisted 1- -- ---- --------------------------- CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 10 -~·~,{'\ r;·· (_ - ~-,, 1 I,, \ ' ., ,~ <•-" ( ..,. ~ ., in the Mississippi area. And then -fr.omf-"',-c_, :-:/ · and other places in the south east of that nature. I: What, for a second, what was the Delta ministry/ .O'Y'c::- ,.r 1·-1 ~ S: It was primarily a ministry of administering to the black community in the agricultural and, it's very vague1 I must be honest with you. I don't remember the details. I remember the title. It was a thing that was a concern at that time to both LJ,'r('·v~. But young people particularly who were going to be participating in this activity in the Mississippi delta ministry, delta ministry project, somef as I understand it, and this may be rumor, so if you use this, you had better trace it through that I'm giving you fact, not fiction. They 1~"\'} \ \ " ;1': (; lt..,.'.( ).'"\~":'' -th I !li!gfi the St. Augustine situation where they could predict what was going to happen in terms of demonstrations. In other words, if we go in .to try to be seated in a white restaurant, a quote\'white restaurant~ we are going to find this kind of response from the owner1 \.,...... who would in turn do this andAturn, the police department would respond in this way and we will go through this experience as we go through the booking and through being charged, etc. etc., then we would be c C1~···r~i ... ~ released on bail. And bond is put up by someone else) .that we 1•"- >-. ~c \ \<" 'C>" VH-\,-., to this other situation having already experienced the kind of activity here, that we may well experience out here. So that we will know how to deal with it here. Here, it is,no control. Here and in I . some other "'"~i c_;\,,, ,_,c,, because of various things that I talked about .--\?earlier •. So, in a sense, it was the ----------------- ---------- somebody has a sub-machine gun and starts shooting at you. ____________________ That was exactly the s~-. kind of thing that some participating in se~er -------- f''."\\'\'~ \• c. So, this was also going on while ------------ CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 11 That may not be so. But the people who came ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ in the black interest. I"- (Tape is malfunctioning) (Tape side 2) S: ••• regular students there for which might hft"ll"e possibly have been other persons coming in)al]tt residing at the college and giving the impression of coming from the college in demonstration routes is totally impossible for me to determine. So, I really can't say. \-.\-<-IC.. In terms of the older black community, I think there .w;as a portion of the older black community that were supportive to this;though they may not themselves have been specifically present. Indeed there were some individuals that were there. And they were highly visible and everybody could see them, everybody knew who they were. But .. \/·v. ·t- I generally speaking, those were the same persons whi~h you saw on each occasion. In terms of the whole community, I could not say how many really were there. Demonstration-wise, when there would be a gathering of the ~ community at one of the black churches, the black conununity, I suspect a great part of the black community was present at a gathering such as this. If for no other reason then, that there was as much pressure put upon an individual in the black community to participate on the side of the black community as there would have been and was on behalf of those in the white community to press for support to those who were opposing the action. So, I imagine that there was some participation by everybody but in terms of being in the front lines, not as much as some think. That's an assumption. I do know that in terms of efforts being made to reduce c,,o r 1 _,,.{_, , ;;·<--- ~ . '--• ';"-< thefblack clergyAAparticularly noticeable in their effort to bring about some sort of reconriliation within the community/and the ones with whom I had any contact with, were CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 12 very concerned·W1-:fh the community as a community there, not so much in terms of it as a focal point of activity for a national group. But we live here. We have people here. What can we do to, all of us together, I: Was there any effort by King to contact the white churches to try to get them to support the demonstration, protests, or try and bring about a reconciliation? S: Directly by King, I could not tell you. I had no contact with King per se. Some of the other people who worked with the SCLC-? I did ..J.,f/ talk with, and I ha~ difficulty remembering exactly who they were, at this point. Of course, at the moment, I thought I would never forget them. But at this point, they are gone from my mind. I'm sure I would remember them if their names were brought up. I: There was Shuttersworth and Jose Williams and C. T. Vivian and Andy Young. Those were ••••• S: Well, Andy Young, I had known from earlier contact because Andy had also been involved to some degree with some christian education literature which the Episcopal church had used. And I knew people who knew Andy and I knew Andy through that kind of contact. There were some others also. None of whom you have thus far mentioned, that were really significant as they related to the Episcopalchurch. I: I see. S: I cannot remember their names. There was a clergyman. I believe he f- ,'::I l )r;'\::: was from ~iags:;;::(t:)-tnd his name goes out of my mind /but his color and facial contours were such that he could pass either way. And he did so on several occasions. He was present on the occasion when Mr. Seymour CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 13 saw to it that som~~ demonstrators were seated in the Episcopal church. This particular man was with them. I But, no) Jo my knowledge, to my knowledge, remember that I came late on the scene and there may have been something occuring that I knew nothing, you know, about, I: Why were the, one of the things that strikes me about St. Augustine, and I don't think this is atypical but I would like to hear your ..\--le ..... \ , .. I response, ~ churches seemed reluctant to take a stance'? Now whether it was reluctance or it was just no real thought about taking a.~ position!I'm not sure of. But was it reluctance or was it •••• S: Yeah, I think I understand what you are asking. You have to understand the political structure of various denominations of values in order to really grasp this. The Roman Catholic church is made up of members of its congregation who are under the leadership of a priest, who is under the direct guidance of the bishop. And the authority structure .f.{, of the Roman Catholic church is very intense in top. The bishop says,~ Rome says, the bishop says, the priest says and the people will respond, or else. That's one polarity. The Roman Catholic church is changing that kind of structure in present day) fut at that particular. time, that's the way it was. At the other end, you have the free churches most epitomized/I thinklby the Baptist church1generally1in which the authority structure is the congregation. And the congregation has the power to manipulate their clergymen. It's a very strong power to do so. If they don't like what he does, he is out. And they will get another one, or they will raise one from their ranks. So, the Baptist church is one polarity and the Roman Catholic church is the other CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 14 polarity in terms of power structures. Then you have the Methodist church, the Presbyterian churches and other churches of that sort which really are very like the Baptist church in the sense that congregational authority seems to be more intense. So you take the major protestant churches in the community and you see that their group -;esponse is going to be what the group feels. l~he group feeling was resentment or being threatened) ?hen that congregation is going to make their clergymen respond that way. If he responds otherwise, they are going to get rid of them. So, he's tied in a sense. I think .. ~"-~ that you can easily seet,as a community, the white community was being greatly threatened by the~f blacks in the church. It has nothing to do with theology or ethics in that sense. But it.has everything to do with power of authority of the body. In the Episcopal church, we have the congregation and we have the y'estry which is made up of ''(')It !JIP";_t persons who .are ' t ,...:),,J but there is also sort of an ~ - . , I • I \~ v·\ r~·.t:.t'"--. overlay of the Roman Catholic structure wher.e we have the bishop and the priest and the authority from on high as well as authority coming 'I<.\<; from below. So, the clergymen)generally, .i;;s. caught in the middle in that sort of situation. But most clergy in the Episcopal church operate with the general authority coming from the top not from the bottom. So as I was saying/ the Episcopal clergy ~~<.~.I ~of~: responsive to the authority of the diocese, the bishop, than he-was generally to the congregation or to the }lestry • I: Can I get you to describe what happened, the turn of events within the Episcopal church, within the Episcopals? S: Within Trinity, at what point? How do you want me to pick it up? CRSTA 4AB CTM J>age.15 I: Picking it up from when Mrs. Peabody entered and I think it was on the 31st, or the first of April and then on the 13th, the 12thAof April, e~, five blacks attended Trinity Episcopa1 5 Father Seymour says that the only thing that bothered people were all the cameramen out front, ;he blacks came and just like everybody else, took their seats, nobody paid any attention. Bishop Rusk ordered -- all churches in the north Florida dioceses to admit anyone who wishes to attend services. S: This is so difficult for me to reconstruct and I've just been very sure that I do what I do generally and~hat is embellished fact is fiction. So if you find that/please recogni~e i~ t~~~ ~~~-- 1 ~d incidentally, I want to take an opportunitY~,~~r·sa; somethingfwhich f",<:>f-C '/Dv 1 '\ I w-Wh you wot:t!i:d pick up before you leave, and that is I have been quoted in several articles, it was originally in Redhook article, which \~h\'l-h was later picked up in cl(e writings)you have here, in which I made a statement concerning the '' ~\\'i\!C,Q black f'r'-t\ h 11 in St. Augustine and the image of that. And that I was giving that particular ~v-(~-Nf..) interview to this young lady~from Redbook1and I don't remember her name, I don't even remember the article1but in the conversation, she asked me about it and I said the image of the ~~eloved :Black man'1 (~[) etc., when it was printed, the quotation marks were not there. I: I see. S: And it makes all the difference in the world";' how one understands it. If you read it straight or if you see it with the quotation marks because I was speaking on an imagery and no1using this as a specific title for a group of people or an individual. And each time that -- ________________________________________________________ _J CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 16 1.S: has been picked up, it~~ been picked up since~ out of context. D~'-~/, I: JJJ{?, was that in '64 that article was published? S: It was '64, J65, it'~ carried in several of these and I will indicate I: S: it to you later on. ic."-1 O~, I'll go through it with you. ".1dt10.") But,· hm.::y:iug back to what you are saying, let's go back first to the p,,"'-·\","~{)' I':;. day of Mrs. ~eeples arrival. I will tell the story to you as I under-stand it, not necessarily as a fact that occured. I was not there on the scene 1 so I do not know. But as I understand it, on that particular day 1 which was the first of April, 1964, Mrs. Peabody had been in town for a day or two or three with other persons. And her presence was quite notable. The national press was aware of it. She was a signicant person and therefore kept alot of A\Jsi. ,·,., _J~~ o.'.J: And on that day/ which was a Wednesday, t-~~:e :~; .~~~mally scheduled .J.~ n.fYf!fft service at, I believe it was, about~ or ~1 o'clock, I'll say lO o'clock in the morning. That was a normal service. It was in the chapel. Generally, there might have been four, five, six people attending1not a big thing1 (Vv",Q I · but a regular week:=day service. }l'arly on that day 1 when CharleJSeymour came to his office, he received a telephone call, I'm now out of sequence, but you will get the elements. He received a telephone call from if v p ~t-...was'"". New York, I think it was New York, wanting to know what he was going to do when Mrs. Peabody integrated the church that morning. He had no knowledge that anything was going to occur. He really didn't know what he was going to do)if you will, at that particular instance. This came totally out of the blue. At the same time 1 roughlY; that he was receiving that kind of phone call, the national news broadcasti!ra on t.'b:e"'radio, was announcing the fact that that day at a proposed hour CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 17 ~· -c, something was going to happen and they help us at all. Later in the morning, \ 1 \I ......... didn't show up. This didn't O\.)(<,-d\K ";-, we got}a call from the same man, who said:::he •·ms really sorry that I did you that .) V---l- s~1 way but;\ "the ) people down herex won't go along :Wit~ your control of the situation. ·we' 1 c.- \....\€.-' ('.< <\<'>• •"1 _ .. '"" ¥ea ar-e. in control and 4t we elerr'"--t do it the way we want to do it and you don't tell us how to do it. We are going to be there at 11 o' pitA.S.orcJ ''/ clock JI Well, I wasn't terribly pleased(\ because I thought that we had stuck our necks on th..,.e line and we didn't feel that we had gotten a decent responsex By the eleven o'clock service time, I think it was the eleven o'clock service, it may have been 9:15, it was very obvious that something was about to happen because not only were we ~cJ':,,!;. at the front door but so were the television coverage ~ which were L CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 21 parked right across the street from the front door,' of the church and that's not much distance. ~"'-~ And the cameras were out and the news people were all ab:m:rt" and there was much todo. l.ja,.) k\. 1c.J t 'C'\ I;.., <;;;-l~Jl.,.. The Xestry were.-the:r~in front of the church to protect it. And at about service time, just +lt,, ~#- ~ -~·~A.· as we lfere s~s•t te service, this man and his persons, followers, did arrive. They were stopped at the sidewalk door under the steps, I should say, the sidewalk door, by members of the J"estry. Mr. Seymour •I 1_ ~\.-,1<.I.'"' \L.-rv and I were standing in the lobb)j ;ft the right of the entrance way of the church and back, set back somewhat, so we could see what was going on. But as soon as we saw them arrive, we went out to see what could be done. Father Seymour went over to the gate to speak to the)festry and asked me to go to speak to the television people. So I did that; \\ I went over and spoke to one or two of the cameramen and said1 gentle-men, we have a very difficult situation here and you are exposing this \C.'S and making a big thing out of it and it really compounds the difficult1 ~."'~(.c ..l;ha:t:-we have and we would appreciate it if you would move off of the situation so we can handle it and do what we can with it.Y But I rem-ember specifically that one of the cameramen turned l to me and help up '..-'t·'l"....r his camera and said/ 1:hftt \\ we -~ you to know that S\""'\::lot· I 'h~ the most important, valuable footage I have ever taken in St. Augustine in this thing right now and I'm not about to put this camera away~1 which didn't help a thing. That was ,;V'f'..t...\<.{1 ~- \ ~~-'--~~~~~~- So at this point, I walked back over and joined Mr. Seymour who was at the gate and he was still trying to persuade and he finally decided ~~~~~~~~~~~~- simply push through and move the blacks into the church, which was what was done. When we did this, some of thefastrymen who were there as j,ic;t ushers, threw their bulletins on the ground and walked off. And the CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 22 blacks were taken into the church and seated themselves at a back pew, the first one they came to when they got inside of the church 1 and they continued to be present there through the service with no difficulty. I say no difficult)/ and I'm not sure if they had difficulty at that ~c.... t..."'""- _, r.···.c~._ .. ~_?··"',.._c"? .. ,.,.."".u·;"._("'t .. 1· ,.t;· ... _, o ... ' J \..(;.._,.., f ·•· ... -~ ~ ~ \ • ' i r \.'.) l ......... ,. \ I ~ time) &fi:=tinnmmication;' · That was something that they had not figured. So, there was IIU1Ch discussion at that point conceTiling what had occured, why they were distressed, all of the things that surrounded it. And Bishop West still held his ground. And finally, at a later point of the;V'estry meeting, some people suggested that perhaps it would be best if they simply resigned from the Xestry. And Bishop indicated y..LS1 oJ. ic.. that ~cu I~ \.;..<.. accept~ ~' that he would accept anyone's resignation who wished to make it. 1here upon, three men immediately resigned. And since it seemed to be snowballing •..•. I: Do you remember who resigned? S: No, I don't remember exactly. (tape cut out for some time) 0 ....... I: Basically what I want to ask is you took over and you had participated tt S: the side of Father Seymour and you had pushed or physically pushed past the Yestry to open the gates so that Styles, I believe it was, and the people with him could enter the church and partake in the service. What happened? What was the situation like to you? ,>.,J....t{."" ·~" ,_.;;.,, Well, again that's hard for me to remember. I remember considerable hostility and yet between myself and Charles Seymour1 because I was new and he had been there for a long while/ ~e had accumulated a certain runount of hostility on the part of some people. I guess I was the least a.S ' 4' \ .. .,.\0 CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 24 ;/ bad things. And so I was able to continue and administer the affairs of the parish when he was not present, at least when he continued to be rector and obviously I continued to minister my -"' -------- to support him. I: When was that approximately? When did he leave? S: It seems to me that he left to go tb New Orleans either in October or November. We had a terrific hurricane come through New Orleans and did great damage to the city, a-.".'. . \ Nu\\ I think it was in November --------- But he had just gone to New Orleans when that occuted. So I remember that distinctly. So it was rather early in the fall. But he definitely called in the late sunnner _c:Nv-_.._ . Q--4-._. __. .... ."".,._) 'o I knew b 'I .£,rY D 0 c .) L-<~ :iJ£' the ttte sUHIIIler that he was going to go. The question then was how ('. ........ was Trinity Parish to be administered. The best thing always was for ,.tll'~ --: assistant to also leave when the rector \_cpvc;, in order ----------~ n that the ---- may be changed for the next time ,..., , ----------~ This particular case, though, I was there and they were '(Y"V' tl;i.cl.. accepting me. ~ they were accepting me for the reason that was sent to me by a clergyman in the diocese who is still here. And I trust he said it in jest but yet at the same time I knew enough about the situation to believe that maybe he was right. They were considering calling me later on to be rector. And this clergyman said, "Stanley, those people really don't want a priest and you are the closest thing to nothing they could find". And he may have been right. (laughter) But what ever the case, \...,/ during the period from Charles Seymoursgoing to New Orleans until the following March or April, during that interim period, the director of the church was the foshop of the .Diocese. I was simply there as the priest-in - charge. And Bishop West asked me to stay there in that capacity. His specific words( as I recall the best I can rere, "Stanley, they have CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 25 allowed you to live with them this long. See if they will let you live with them a little longer." And so I continued to take services and shared the ,..iestry but only as priest-in -charge and not as rector. And t'bkgan picking up pieces. In the spring, they called me to be rector. To be very honest with you 1 and I am being honest, I did not want the job. I had come from G0\f ~.t,7;<- to be an assistant because I really didn't want to be the '1- I wanted somebody else to make the decisions and to take care of angers that would come out of it. I really didn't want it. And wi\l when they offered me the job, I still didn't. I was insecure and I continue~ to be insecure even until this day. I really just didn't want that kind of responsibility. And so Bishop West came down to-St. Augustine and said, "Stanley, they let you live for a year here and you are of the people1 they kno~1""you lived here in south Jacksonville and you are just as cracker as they are;"'''"6-.)>J~~-;.!: !'-c:. rv~r-.tck.o.s-t~v_ 1, c;,,-c. and you are for the same kind of prejudices that they haveJwhich I will speak to you in a few minutes, I think may be helpful.* But they lmew this. I 'S>tr-,dltD \l So, if they ~ (-.::. wanted me to be rector, Bishop West thought it Wffi:lld~·be- a good idea. And so I accepted -------- My full tenure there was seven years. During the early days, when I was still, before I was, no 1 it was after I was rector, no,r beg your pardon, during the early days, when I was still priest-in-charge ~l-"l;\.<.- and ~Seymour was still there and we were having all the difficulties~ we were having, the tensions were very high. And on more than one occasion, both Oiarles Seymour and I received verbal threats by telephone to our households or to ourselves personally. And as I look back on it now, \ I' ) we~ r~ Sr;,.~~c- .J\:) ~-~v~\...,. I really didn't think of it as anything because of in the instances that I recall, I knew the people who were calling . .And on one occasion, I received a call that said, this was right after the .-------------------------------------------------- CRSTA 4AB CIM Page 26 \....r~t-~-· blacks had been let into the church that on the occasion that you all let ~Q ~.;-v r•.Y 0 '.co the blacks into the church, it was so and so and so and so and his b-o,1 ~;;. I Next Sunday, it's going to be so and so and so and so and his boys and it's not going to be the same. And that telephone call came to me in the evening. I was rash in thinking ~ what I was doing; s\-.ov \c~ ~.,., . ic kc. f1 ~. 1-r • \ ke .• \\\:.c l\,.\D0\.\'N ".? ,l:':'\v-it'-S't~vr<1(\, And so I told the caller that he had better bring his boys with him because up until that time, he had been dealing with clergy who were connnitted to non-violence) but I was not connnitted to non-violence. He had better have someone with him if he came on this particular occasion. And I thought that was f?~U" Srt--r>·::,~k ~~~~+\ ........... ~.:,._;_~~~~~~~ But as a matter of fact, on that particular Sunday, they did arrive. They were standing in front of the church and the Ji'shop was aware of this, aware that this was the kind of tension that we were faced with and so he had instructed us not to go in the front door of the church. We had our nonnal procession in the front door. But to enter the sanctuary from the side door to avoid a confrontation at the front door of the church, in case there was physical violence. "? I: Were these black demonstrators or white'~? S: These were white. They were reacting to what happened the Sunday before. 0.\-{.... But as the hour for service grew near, Father Seymour and ~knew that we weren't about to go in the side door. This was just not going to be our way of doing things. So, we went in the front door. We walked through -.t-tv-~ the group and ~ was people The only grateful thing, the only gracious thing, good thing was that on that particular Sunday, no black demonstrators were at the front door. Had they done so, CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 27 we would have had a problem because we weren't going to be intimidated by that kind of ("', t ! ,1' -\1-r ·i , .. ·r "·'"''\ 1; \1" ··'. ~"··But there were instances like that ----------------- they passed_. _____ _ Th at went on generally through the sunnner'()'-:\-_U v...-?-<- 0".:. .I,(-t< - s;..,, "'.,...c( .\,,'_,;;_"-----· What I wanted to say to you about things learned 1and being of the people, perhaps their friends, is that I think I discovered something that apparently lots of other people already know and that is that when you have someone who is confronted with an issue such as demanding your relationship with the person with whom you o-~ .bs-1- ""'" "'\ ______ ___;; ____ ~ it's very hard for you to make that kind of transition immediately. So, what I did was to not force anybody and if I knew anybody who had strong ,, lol)\C.1ypv !,:,.,..~",:.,) feelings, anti-black, I didn't go out and say, you are not a giristian ,, '( and danmed to hell, that sort of stuff. and I love you and I do. I have a great wann feeling for a great many of those people who even today are obstinate, they are absolutely holding their position that is1 not to l;rc,....Q But by approaching them with that position, they didn't have to defend themselves. I was not someone who was constantly W VIC .( /j., thought of as a danming figure but rather someone accepting them even as they were. 'I ' ...R,w,,>._:r (_ {\ \ .. ! ~ ... ' ..--.. \ They knew my position and they knew that I didn't agree with -them but I didn't destroy them if I had a disagreement with their position. This allowed some of the people, the opportunity in later years to move from one position to another without having me say ha ha, I told you you would eventually or feeling anything at all except that they were able to make that on their own. When they made it, it didn't change their relationship with me noti~bly. They were still the same friend that I had before. And I was there. But they could now take a new posture without any kind of external agitation, would you say. And that happened on a great CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 28 many occasions and it was tremendously gratifying to me to see this occur. I remember one specific day when)I don't think I will ever forget, one of the men whose name is not mentioned in any of these papers but he was • p :.- extremely racist, just absolutely, my God, no blacks \-.. ~;!\\..' o-r-t...c~. ' But he was also equally, irrationally Episcopal~an. .And if you are an I Episcopal~an, it didn't make any difference if you came from Mars , you are Episcopal~an. .And one Easter, some of the members of the black '1-, --- Mission, came to Easter services at Trinity, two, three, four years after all this in '64. And suddenly here was this man kn.e~ing at the alter of the Trinity Church along side one of the most notable leaders of the black '-J conmrunity who would have been most l.llldesirable as far as he was concerned. And the ~read was given to everybody and the chalise came by and I watched this guy receive the connnon chalise and pass it on to this black person next to him and he never moved and didn't get up and I'm sure he must have been feeling all kinds of thing7 but he made it. He survived it. He made it. And to me, that was a tremendous experience. I could see this happen'· to people. But this is not the kind of thiag that you can very well .And it's not the kind of thing that happens l.lllder the pressure, it may happen as a reaction to the pressure. But only after you have let down your wall, stppped fighting, stopped all of your defense mechanisms and let yourself be open to a new position which is part of ./\ ¢-S I: Was there any time when you could reach out to the black commllllity; you said there was some sort of overtures being made prior to the racial crisis. Was there any, could you ptck up those threads later on and reestablish ••• I L CRSTA 4.AB CTM Page 29 S: Yeah, during the entire summer of '64, there were meetings periodically/ sometimes weekly, sometimes more often, between some white clergy and some black clergy. And gradually we included some lay persons in these UJ>.1(<,..L( y-vc,..) ~ conversations. The goal,of~ beinv~o···~ 111.,..we in the commllllity,- h~ _\.PV'\,5, ~ in this situation. The white ~ +-k ~V- ,'/. clergy that participated, ~ Episcopal cler~ 'If? Pres!J}!!tarian clergymen who was open and easy to deal with this and one OT two of the ( Methodist cler,gy~ the Baptist were practically non-existent; I: (the interviewer asked something) 1-\ei.-..J d .. ~'.)-..)4 (::,~ •. ,,,.., -+C (c .. IQ~\·r·.'.;;? S: Not at ti$ time. I think it needs to be noted powever 1that John Burns; who /1~~~) in ASia was the monsenior of the cathedral at that particular time. And Archbishop Hurley was the archbishop of the diocese of St. Augustine. Archbishop Hurley specifically directed John Burns to make connnunication with the clergy of Trinity Parish and offer them support. I: Michael Gannon \-...)C-S. t~kro ~~--'-~~~~~~~~~~~~~- S: I knew Mike extremely well. I: Did ym?. S: I am very fond of Mike. I: You were friends? S: I am extremely fond of him. Do you see him regularly? I: Yes. S : Tell him hello for me. I: I will. S: I am extremely fond of him. Mike's a great person. I'm sorry that the . church isn't using him right now, the way I think they ought to be able .(.?.. .,, '', I', . J to but he has an awful lot ~0 r,.·-·~ • ~. there were these persons who were in commllllication at that point. Out of that kind of commllllication also grew a learning that I think is significant. And that was that we -- -- - --------------- CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 30 were all very sensitive to each other and we had new concerns that we had not necessarily had before. .And it was hard to connnunicate because <.. of these Hightened sensitivities. You didn't dare do anything or say anything for fear of offending somebody else. So finally, one of the black clergy, I'll never foTget this, finally just put his hands on top .1 ..$ ;._;;. I\ !?"°:~I,•; ~""' ~: ... [ '"' ) C)t.,_.I ~. . I I ' ,~-v· ., ... ::\ $...-. of the table and said1 we ain't going 1;» done,~ you can call me a nigger if you want to because that's what you usually call me 1 and I can call you a powder face because that's what I usually call youf'and he said1 ''neither one of us is going to get upset by this. .And once we get around this, we can start talking to each other and getting down to the things that we need to get to!1 And that was to me very refreshing because 1,.;:, '-' r we were being so careful with each other, not to offend1-ttmt we weren't '-' \&1' .,,Ir~ l \{O really dealing. So once we all said OK, don't worry about what I say, try to hear what I intend you to hear, we began to make some movement forward. I was ref~\red by that. Later, and I don't know how long this continued, but later, .we were able to involve some of the major leadership persons of the connnunity in by and large with black and white persons '12 LC r .. .,.-~,--,J 1 >- .' · ~ i r ...,,-:\ , and other51 basically they were involved for ~ And they were manipulated to bring about those things that they thought were going ") ·, to be in their favor ~~---~----~ But at least, it was communication. I: Who were some of those representatives from other churches? Do you remember the names of the people from the black churches or the white churches? S: I do not remember their names, I'm sorry. There was a Dr. Lee who was _f?_ic.:_c_J_ ,_ ~l~_c_c_:r_·· -c"_c;_._r·_(_J __ the Methodist church representative was quickly transferred out because they didn't reflect the wishes of the people CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 31 in the congregation. They were very committed men when I got there in 1964. The two Methodist clergymen in the city of St. Augustine in the spring of 1964 were very connnitted to helping deal with the racial issue f ,_,,,(. • \ cμ,.-Q L v \ ~ic , 1 '\;v , c U .. 1 df' 11<.~~ \) ',.\ • I: Were you able to bring in blacks to the Episcopal church in St. Augustine during your tenure? S: No, there were no black communities brought into Trinity Church. We have now1still, and had then, a black mission not too far away from Trinity Church that had been there for many,·many, many years. I: Where was this? S: On Citrus. And at this particular time, the Episcopal church also had a mission, a black mission, in Fernadino which was on the opposite end of the block at St. Peters A~. And the NAACP and ~----------- others put pressure on the diocese of Florida to close that church and to bring the black congregation into.thewhite congregation in our neighborhood which was white. Successfully or not so successfully, I'm not so sure. If you went down 4 · ~-~----------------~ And the same suggestion was made to st0f;f~p?). ~ --------------~~ people at St. ~~said that they did~ want it. And this is not ~---~-,,,... The t._.,,_,., , ..... , a racist vie' I don r t think_·_~_c_~--~\ -· ' I I •.I ' 1" ,.1 ]!{ i_c_0 _1~ _·~_'_,_._,_,_.1 _·_·~ rut they knew that the people of Trinity didn't want i~ ---- The second thing they knew was that if they went to Trinity ,Yarish, not only would they feel not welcome but they would loose any political powers they had within their own structure in the community. The church would have killed the congre-gational structure. And they really didn't want that. So they·_/'/.:...· __ _ the Bishop not to close them. And he did not close them. And they CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 32 continued on and still continue until this day. I: Who serves in the missionary? Is there a priest? S: There is a priest that goes there. Now when they had a black priest, they operated autonom(ously. Whff'¢ I was in St. Augustine and they did not I: have a black priest and I showed up in St. Augustine, I took the services there regularly, Eucharist and regular prayers, every other Sunday, I think 1I had used this building, confirmation classes, church school teaching and different things. So, I carried them both in interim periods when we didn't have black ministry. We now have a black priest who works there. After '64, I can't remember whether it was '65, '66, but at the same time, somewhere down the line, the people of St/·s·i.~;~:~ began again to come to services at Trinity when they felt like it. When we had speakers of significance who they wished to be present for, they .J.c felt comfortable in coming. On some occasions, some would come to weekly service:in chapel for Eucharist. And we had two or three or four who were ~ quite accustomed to receiving Eucharist weekly and they had not been there weekly for awhile simply because ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ because again you reach the point where people from the town knew I each other. (End of tape 2 side A) •••• I can't remember. I guess I have used up alot of your time but let me just ask one last I question. From your perspective, what impact did the racial crisis have on the community? What sort of shape did it leave the community in after King left? After Reverend Codding Lynch and Stoner left? CAI 1 0~\-.t, S: That's the same question that my friend got me with. The community was ~-1 a unity of persons who found it difficult to trust one another whether I it be in the white community or the black or between whites and whites 1 L __ CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 33 whites and blacks, there had been so many things opened that you weren't ~tp:!t' rcrJJ , \ sure you couldAtrust the guy down the street because he may have been involved in the white citizens council sort of thing or he may not have been. He didn't know whether you were or whether you were more liberally-oriented and therefore, so there was, in terms of interpersonal relations/ ct-- such as racial concerns, a destruction of~ trust. You really couldn't s. 4-n~ d , tell where anybody~. In terms of what was going on between the white ....,. connnunity and the black connnunity per se, the white connnunity ------ to the pressures. Restaurants were opened; public facilities were opened, access~y}opened, hiring and firing was done more ~1: \.,..) ('·,: ·~\l"'-,.:;in a manner, people were taking on token blacks because ~-e-wer~ chTn:gs-that they had to do. But nobody was doing what was really good, open, ().Na., /f rejoicing, feeling good. Generally for the entire_· _________ _ it was that kind of thing. You did what you gotta do but it was not what you wanted. I suspect maybe some changes had taken place but I doubt that they had really changed. The reason I say that is because of the congregation I have here /1 Their attitudes have not changed that much, at this point. The reason I don't begin the intense pressure of St. Augustine. I: Did you feel the intense pressure left than ----- I guess it did leave more in St. Augustine? Do you think, I keep asking questions after I said that would be the last one, do you think St. Augustine could have moved as far as it did without the crisis of '63 and '64? Would it have moved further? ( .., ,.) S: Very hard. It's very hard to say. That is such an <;:_.\X~C'-.(!'Q. question. 11-'S Honestly, I could not tell you. I would like to say, I 1thought it would because they did an exceptional job at the very outset of dealing CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 34 with the school situation. They really did. They ran into problems some years after I left with their seventh grade centers and that sort of thing that really became problematical because they had to/ had to put a certain number of whites in the black community school. But when they first started out dealing with the quote''integration ~. . \ \ r ,.. .{ \ t. l, ) problem;' what they did was to open the schools and say that 1'~nybody, can go to any school that they want to. And a goodly number of black children innnediately came into the white structures. And that worked relatively well. Many of the black children stayed in the black schools. There was one school over on the island that was predominately white, ~.J-some black children/but predominately white. But 1 then the schools that were in the area between the two, where there could be freedom of movement to and from, worked relatively well. And everybody seemed to be pulling it up. It was only when further restrictions or guide-lines by the Federal government said that you have to do this, that they really began to get into problems. They might have done af-ight left on their own, given things that had been going on in the whole national structure. It might have been a]fight because it was still a small town fs it is no~ and everybody knew everybody. And maybe certain whites would want to suppress certain blacks '1. . ·ft4c-V'I t-.P'1' -2- l.t. JL (;::-;;;..( ! v.\'r:-:::-. • \ L.(,. 1:> ( not much different really than whites~ suppress whites,~ the black people who suppress blacks. I think we have that same 'S'.- l"~"'c.. whether it becomes more heightened an image or becomes more undesirable for those who are making any kind of evaluation on white behavior or black. But I think that probably, as any other city of that size in the south east, given the mentality, the psychology, the attitudes CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 35 • • ""? of the people that didn't have that kind of situation~'~~~~~~~~~ I: OK, thank you very much. (end of tape)
Trinity Episcopal Church -- Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC) -- National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) -- Trinity Episcopal Church -- Civil Rights Act of 1964 -- Sit-in -- Attempted Integration of Church -- Civil Rights March
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