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L.O. Davis : Transcribed Interview

Collection:: Civil Rights Library of St. Augustine
Title:: L.O. Davis : Transcribed Interview
Creator:: Davis, L.O.
Kallal, Edward, Jr.
Contributor to Resource:: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, University of Florida
Date of Original:: 1900/2022
Subject:: Civil rights--United States--Florida
People:: Davis, L. O.
Kallal, Edward, Jr.
Abernathy, Ralph, 1926-1990
Brock, James, 1922-2007
Bryant, Farris, 1914-2002
Eubanks, Goldie M., Sr.
Eubanks, Richard
Hayling, Robert Bagner
King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968
Lynch, Connie (Charles Conley), 1912-1972
Manucy, Holsted, 1919-1995
Mathis, Charles C., Jr.
Melton, Howell
Peabody, Mary E. (Mary Elizabeth), 1891-1981
Stuart, Virgil
Shelley, Joseph, 1915-2007
Simpson, John Milton Bryan, 1903-1987
Stoner, Jesse Benjamin, 1924-2005
Williams, Hosea, 1926-2000
Young, Andrew, 1932-
Frazier, Mary
Landry, Roy
Graham, Joe
Michaels, Earl
Drane, A. H. (A. Hank)
Rollins, Roy
Location:: United States, Florida, 28.75054, -82.5001
Medium:: transcripts
Type:: Text
Format:: application/pdf
Description:: Interview with L.O. Davis, St. Johns County Sheriff during the height of the racial crisis in St. Augustine in 1964. Davis recounts his family history and his life prior to joining the Sheriff's Department. Davis explains the state of race relations prior to 1963-1964 and details many events that occurred during the Movement in St. Augustine. Davis describes many well known events associated with the St. Augustine Movement and gives great detail in explaining police procedures that were in place at the time. Davis gives numerous opinions on the Movement and the people involved.
Saint John lAB Bridges Page 1 This is an interview between Sheriff L. O. Davis and Edward Kallal, Jr., the inte.rviewer. There was no introduction. K: ... ?fuY:-r1!::.\~. . ":.~,clr;t/,_......, t; tJJ..;,--( c-P0.1'1 I 'co. . f-' bA~k+o~. OM I think thi"is the governor a f1,.\J .,,. Governor U rl\! ) 7 D: K: D: Yeah. Uh huh. There's some things here you cttn take with you if you'd $end them back to m.o. K: All right. Yeah, I thi.nk that we'll get to al1 this in due t i me. D: Yeah. K: But I just want to make sure we cover most of the things we should. And I want to--you know I want to emphasi.ie before we begin that this~ I'm very new at thμ and I have to keep most of my questions on what I have read so far. And so I-- in order to ascertain whether what I've read in the newspapers and stuff a.re true, I going to have to, you know, ask a somewhat pointed question every now and then. And so, you know, if l offend you 1n any way, uh, you know, please just let me know. D: Yeah . IC: I ~11 back off and uh, but you koow, this is the only vay I know how to try to net down to the bottom line of this thing. That's all right with you~ You say your parents are froo St. Augustine. D: Yeah. K: Is th&t correct? D: Ye:ih, both my parents, V1'J 8t"3Ildfather and g.randmotber settled here. way back 1n the 1800's. K: Uh huh. D: The grandfather on my side of the fatsily~my father's side, uh, in our • .. SJ lAB Pa.ge 2 Bridges D: faaily history hODt•t•ad is the present site of Titu.&vil.lc. K: Oh yeah. D: And he traded the ho.._.tead vitb Hr . Titus for a yoke of ozen. K: A yoke of oxen. D: Yeah , 3nd he came to St. Augustine end oettled out at Pt. Peyton . K: Uh huh. D: And Ft. Peyton i .1 tho aite where the Indian, Oaceola, vu captured under a flag of tnic•. K: Oh. D: And 1!!'J grandfather vu prucnt when the.y capturtd him. K: Really. D: And he used to gripe and raise the dev:f:l all t'ht time because they took Osceola under a flag of truce. Of cour••• he was t he kind of historian in the roat: of tbe !CUllily. K: YC4h. Th.ot'a int.oroating. Re didn't like t.hat vhen they, uh- 0: No, he- K: That 's a little bit cheating there. D: Well , thot wtt!I true in hietory. K: Uh huh. D: You know, they did captur·e Osceola under A flag of tru.ee. K: Uh, so you grev up in the St. Al!gustine are.a? D: Oh yeah. K: What's it--what va1 it like graving up tbcrc? D: Well, uh, of couna, uh, t came 31.on,s at o kind of a boad #ge , you see. I was in the clnaa or '31 at the University of Florida. K: Oh yeah. D: It was during tho deprueion days, and uh, 1 loft the.re with and worked for the COache.a people out at~in lola Junior College in Iola, SJ IAB Bri.dges Page 3 D: Kansas, and I stayed there two years and went to j unior college. K: Uh huh. D: Then I managed some coaching stuff in Okl ahoma and every place going down to the Univers ity of New Mexico. So I went do~ to Albuquequc , New Mexico . K: Huh. D: I went to the univem;,ty for t\lO ycor& down there. K: It'•s hotte'C down there than i t is here, i sn't i t? D: Yeah. l t 's--vell, i t's right t here ~t the foot of the mountains; you know. X: Yeah. D: And real nice, but-- K: Wel l, then out of coaching, how did you get star ted in law enforcement ? D: Wel l , when I came home from New Mexico, I uh , coached a little team K: D: here f ree of charge-- St. Joseph ' s Academy. Yeah. ~.J Along with just that was--but uh, and ve ~ a pries t down t her e that uh , wanted me to get a just kept PI(< cl<; 1~d I job so bad he could tas te it. And fina11y he the StlnlO ~enator. uh, Fr azier, that I vas talking about was mayor of the city at the tiJl'le. K: Yeah . D: And they gave me a job on the~go t me a job on the city police department vorking nights so that I could coach during the day. And then I stayed down there a couple of years and I got $ln5.00 a month which was top pay for a full patrolman then. And uh, but before ~hat, you k.nov \I'd been to three state universities and I was working in a clothing s tore one day a week for $2. 00. K: Hmmm. •., SJ IAB Br1.dges Pago 4 D: I cean tll:ie.a vere tough. When I ea:.e ho•, I rode the freight fro• Albuqueque. When l ca• home, I stopped at, uh, San Antonio ~ Texas. K: Uh huh. D: ~here the original march on Washington started. Ki Yeah. D: And there were at l e:ut, they said, 1200 people ther·c . And they'd built ehackl out of tin cut and stuff and lived out in the:-veU the jungle t .he.y called it. But. they had a regular little city outside the tovn. All the aerch.ants·, every day, vben they t.hrev out their beet• ind, you knov , the incdib1e•. Woll , when they bring it out, they bring it out in garbage trucks. You'd see at least half of those 1,200 people in there picking up old b~eto and lettuce heads, anything that thay could. I mean, uh, thing• verc reall.y tough. then uh , I caught a freight out of there and cue on into Nev Orleans, and then caught a ferry aero•• New Orleans. And then caught a freight on ioto Tall3hasse.e end Quincy. And thea. vhen I •, got t here, I hitchhiked on into St. Augustine. ·~ X: Ummm. Was it very toug.h hitchhiking'? D: No, people wer~--~' but the only bad part vas, of course, I K: D: l had-I was dirty--l'd be~ on tbe road about nine or ten days and I ne-ede:d a shave and a bath real bad. from riding th•t darn freight for so long. 4"'-d a lot of UMs these big truck.I or aoae.thing vould pick me up and ay lut pick. up in Jack.S:onville. I got acros.a the o ld bridge there , and uh, f2:r:wt0 -J'l\4/\(_ vas a guy from St. Augustine rccogntzed me. Picked i::ae up and brou8ht me ri$ht to tho houoc. \ nutt nust have felt good. Oooh aan, I uaa really J,.ec..J-, SJ !AB p3ge 5 Bridges K: Uh, when you got on the force, uh , dur '11'8 the night shift, what vould you do? D: l worked from 7:00 3t night '~il 5:30 in the morning. K: ~- D: Six days a week. K: Uh huh. D: And theo , of course, I had plent y of time to sleep before coach'ing th3t aft ernoon o.t 3:00. Theo uh, I got a job tdtlt' the Florida East Coast Railroed. K: Yeah. D: As a special agen.t- k1,nd of detective work, you know. The uh-that. job paid $200.00. It started off at $250.00 a month which was $30.00 a month more t han the mayor of-the city manager of our city was o.aldng. K: Well , that wasn ' t too bad. D: You don't know--1 i::ic&\ thirtgs were picking up for me then. K: Yeah. It sounds like it . D: I stayed down there~let 1 s see~abo u t five years and then I went in the Army. I was in the European theatre. 1 was wounded and then I got commissioned. K: When did you go into the 4tmy? D: Uh, a year--two months after Pearl Harbor__.,2. K: ~42! __ ·•-.. D: Yeah. 'cause he sent me in '41; K: Yeah , during '41 . That's right. So when you came back from the 3Xll'/, is that when you got into the sheriff's department? \ D: Yeah. l ~rked for the recreation council before l was sent overseas, and then , uh, when election time e<>.me around,.·I ran for sheriff and ... ·. SJ lAB Bridges Pago 6 D: waa elect ed. K: That was in '46-- ' 47? D: Let'& see, uh, forty--1 was sheriff for tventy-one years- '48 I guess . K: '48? D: And then I took office in '49 and served front--twenty would be '69, yenh-'40-- K: How many men did you have under you then? D: I had one fellow . I had ono outside deputy ~nd tny$ol£ . K: Uh huh. D: And uh, one jailer who worked--lived at the j all and worked t here . K: Oh. D: And then uh. I had five deputies t h3t worked the outskirts of the count>:;> 2'.I 0 P•Y· You f:now we were •on the fee system then, K: Uh huh. ~ D: And the shed ff got $7. 00)/A. half on the rest. K: Oh really? D: Yeah . So uh. we uh- - thc outlying, whan the outside deputies--outlying K: D: districts made a chase, they got , uh, I t hink $4.00 and a half on D c/ase. And, of course, the fee system was a horrible thing because l.'.; here's a guy that aays well , 1111 work this week and pick me up five or s1x.f:/u//.€;'fou know. 1.."·~ Kind of l ike a 'llil 31'1!er sys tem. / J1 .Jq.B1Ct1 Yeah, 1 t pick up five or six '1. and I'd make myself $25 . 00- $30. 00 each weekend; which i a bad, you knO\i'. K: Yeah. When did chey SYitch over to , \Jh ... - D: Well, uh-- K: Salary? o.l,o.._f"" D: About tuo years later, and uh--well. no it was ~a t erm-- <1bout f i ve SJ JAB Bridges Page 1 D: years later, ' c~u$e , uh, we got on the t~l~-.:y . K: Uh huh. D: And the salary was $7 , 500.00 a year. The- and when I was uh, the first year I was elected, rcy total i ncome for the yaar was $3,680.00. K: Yeah ~~,. ?, D: Yeah, because it was f rom the sheriff's office. That was my income • . K: • lh:tn. D: But uh , my tot{Ll income was--out ·of th: They'd get that sra.vy tr~ic . K: Well. •on the other harld, you had this deputy--but were there any people that you knew over on your--as your dep6tie& that were, say, members of the Ku Klux Klan? D: Well, I don't think that the possibility that one of them 111isht. have bee.n> but uh, he was from Hastings, and they were very- ... ·, SJ JAB Br~dges Page 13 K: Hastings? Where 1s Hastings? D: Eighteen miles out of here. K: South? D: Wcst--vhen 1t co=e through on 207. K: ]>;,f ;f ? D: Yeah. K: Oh, it's near there. D: Yeah. I<.: Yeah, I know. I>: Uh, be could have been beC3use Uh, they were-they vorked black.a, you +1«t1•; °"'r- knoW' .,ma. .tabor, potato c&mps and everything. K: Uh hub. D: And uh, of course, at that time they were very op.posed • to them K: D: K: D: K: h ... v<.. although they started a black high school out there-~USi two high schools out there )'\.ArvJ YcM. And L./~ 7J.w~:ry --just about e.ll- in other words, we had-when ve had trouble with our local. black.S, there wasn' t any committee. They. didn't-or whoever fe1t that be was damaged, ~entally /physically or anything else. he came and talked to us. Yeah. or You know /one of the mini&ters . uh, (!(,;~fe{:ioe Gr~h..,. Okay. I ,. All right. D: He was the mayor. K: Well then, uh, generally spe3king, about 1 63 or '64, as a sort of a general overview, do you have any special impressions or cocce.nts that you'd like to make? · .•. .,, SJ !AB Bri.dges " Pago 14 D: We had, uh, acw&Uy, ve:-I guess we. had the be.It orde.r of any pl.ace that they ever de.ouatrated. Ve actually had no one killed except one vhite person. K: That was in the, uh, fall of 1 63 , wasn't it? D: Yeah, yeah. And uh, .or '64-yeah '63 or 1 6l1, nnyway that wa& the only death that ve had. K: Yeah, yeah. D: And uh, the uh, vhen tb.U thing started. ther• vu no one objected to the dei=o'llStrated or marching or &Aytbing. but all of a sudden there vaa a big influx of whit• people. The.re vas one. from up in New Raven, Connecticut. He was the chnplain at llGrvard. Re came down. And then a bunch of white boys-young men nnd young women came down, e.nd uh, then what would happen when they would-thay lived down in the colored tOW"O--black town. When they vou1d coae. to town with their little de.aot'lBtt:&tion , they uh, would uh, have th:f.a, uh, id.ea of 3 colored girl vould a.arch vi th a white boy and Vice ver1a. K: Yeah. D: And then when atop and kiss K: Uh huh. they would set up i n tho bu.ainoau ecction, andf"~~(';;ch other , you know ... • they loved to D: ,.~ For the sole pu:rpoae.1 of gcttlttgthese old redneck crack.era~ K: Boys. D: •• &led up. Oh, and goe they'd-sooe of them get eo mad . I see the• ju.at sit down on the sidewalk and stut crying. K: Uh huh. D: And I don't think thoy ncver-311 this time-·thoy never looked around if they saw over two vhite people together. Ev~ if they were all the vay across that part, they'd Dake a beeline for those: three or more SJ lAB .Bridges hge 15 D: vhite people. K: Uh huh. D: To force us to move those vhite people so they could march there. K: D: K: Well, you know tho do111n thing kept getting hottor nnd hotter and people kept getting, uh, sorer and sorar until 1t really got bad. Then when I-thoy elapped an injunction on 'Oe. Tho uh , governor called ma. 11 1 s&id ehe And vhen l got over there, ho said, "What do you th.i.a,.,k 'l'' only euggution 1 h.ave is to re-.ve .. fro• aut.hor.ity. You're going to have to put somebody el1e over there-the highvay patrol. Wellt vo hod twenty-six highway petrol hero. 'leah. All of them in thot t·ow.. 11\ey acted as--thoy know c~rybody here. ntey kne.w the people in the area. They were from PalAa and Gainesville-around, but they bev vho to talk vith and who to, acd the guys had a lot of re.spect for the•, you know. But they 1tnt all t .bes.e total st-range.rs in h•r•, which uh-they moved out ,ou.r twenty-six highway uh- - 1/{ t\ S j{: twenty-six-some of them that v ero. here ~lready out? D: Yeah, vh.ich voe a horrible thing to do becaueo not only do you got all these new onee in and the1c guys s t•rt ueing profanity ot them and cal.led " ,, thc=i nigger- lover• and stuff and they hod.ft't been trained in riot control at that t1De. K: Uh huh. D: So, of course. uh, they deepised the n4tne coll-1ng ond o lot of t ime tl\ey took i t out on tho pareon thot was do:lng it. uh1ch wos, in TAY opin\ion, was wrons because you have t o put up wi.th that stuff if you're going SJ l AB Bridgea Page 16 D: to expect to handle t ,be ezploaive situ.atton. Well. you're going to be called namea. K: Yeah. D: I waa cal l ed thou11ando of them and ao was evel')'body clae. we had a t errific influx , o terrific group here t hat m.arched, and uh, marched vit.h the blacltl . K: Yeah. D: And they vere eia,.hc,"•five peroeot vere businu•MA. K: llh huh. D: Here in St. Auguatino. K: And would t hey--they would just march along ~ -frq 'i?> ... ? D: Mar ch along on the aide of the blacks and t ry to keep the--t z:y to prot e ct them. K: We.ll, why do you think t.hc, uh, the blacka atarted n.arching in the first plecet Why did things break down? D: K: D: and h e s tar ted the lllOV~lll\~n t, I gur:Jo , b ut at tha.t time, I think the JflOVeme'n t consisted of Dr. U•ling, O•rber, and ul1-- k: Who 1s barber, t don't- D: that's not bis n-=e. K: ob, be was tt bhr bet? 0: Ycoah. K: Oh. D: Down on Central Avonue, and uh nar ber up on Wa•h1ngton Str eet. K: Uh huh. Dt They w r e th&, uh. tha only three people t.hat t could find that vas, " SJ JAB Br1.dges Page 17 D: you""°"• vu doing any f'll~ft-undod? D: Dr. Haling and tha tvo barbers one tiu were having a Ku Klux Klan rally out here. \itheR th• bovlln.g alley is. K: Oh yeah. n:tat'a Sept~er 18th, I believe. D: Yeah, and uh- K: That's the time when they got caught out there. D: Yeah, they drove uh, a mile and five eights or eomcthing around the edge of the aarah to get to the back end ovar a ro.al bad road·. It 1189 real hard to get in there) J1A /,"-<--/./.• r<><>lf" Btld everything, .r.. r ,,, ($1> that they could •ne.ak up to the Ku Klux Klan rally-of all· the da= pla«.S anybody'd vane ~ go. K: Bapeeial.ly if you're black. It 11 D: And uh, of course, they &av thm and they et.artcd hollering nigger ond they grabbed cho tht'ao of them and uh, they bent tho tar out of t~em. K: Yeah . D: Uel1, they got the• up on top of t his hi11--about uh, t•d $&y a good · .. SJ JAB Bri.dges Page 21 D: quarter of a mile from the highway . Well, I can't get an ambulance to come up there to pick th&m up . K: Uh huh. D: And uh, l arrested two people. One &an that said he had o mask on, and the other one, I thought was a· C I arrested--1 sent word down for the deputy to COC'lte up and pick Or . Haling up . K: Pick him up . Oh y~ah . D: And these tv<>. So--bccause we couldn't get an ambul ance to COl'lle up there--black or white. Yeah. D: So 1 ookcd him if he could, uh, how fa~ thay could mo.ko t• It '• ., said sure. All three of them sot up but they were beaten. I 'm telling you. K' D: Very bodly , huh? You could lay two fingers in thc--whcre they were beaten in the head and stuff , but mostly it was , uh, I think they seid they hit them with chains--bicycle chains or motorcycle ch3ins because they vere rea l bad cuts, Gnd uh, the d~uty that caJ!le up to pick th~~ up tho eor on I believe it WAO. And so they were subsequent1y arrcated for uh--- D: No, they-none of the three vere ever arrested that 1 know of. K.: H::amm. All rtght. uh , another inc.1.dient happened in July, uh when llaUng .' SJ lAB Bridges Pago 23 K: vas org~nizing these s it- i ns, which you say didn't have too much support but uh . 3nyway. Uh, l et 's see. Oh yes, it vas reported and again, l don't knov if it's true or not, but they r eported that uh , the police . and the sheriff ' s deputies were forced to use cattle prods. D: Yes. K: And dogs to- -on the re&isters--vas this true! D: Yes, we used them on the whites espec ially . K : Uh huh. D: To keep them from croahing the lines in the marches . K: Uh huh. Vell , this is in '63. This is in sit-ins. D: Yeah. But we--we bad~ve did use the cattle prods on several sit - ins . K: Uh huh. D: Because they refused to W3lk and, you know, go to the car, and we also had the standing order that uh, you don't pick up the prisoners. K: Yell, why is that? Is there a security r eason-they mi &ht try to grab the gun? 0 : Yeah, not only that but they can kick you. K: Uh huh. D: And they C: l~ ~ on his face right there. (~./k right side, huh? 11 And uh, he says , uh, give bia a licked tbat guy across the face. I/ ki••· And the old dog "te.ached out aod Really? ) AMlthft eui dl.dn',t,f••ch up to~ipo it off either. Q,~A.A/ ..f I ~ f.l< ,e., ~ ( ( .. .;rt.~.; ~o stayed right there. And then when they--1 got him up and l said I don't want to see you around her~ anymore. K: Uh huh. D: I eaid , you know you could have caused yourself a lot of damage and you could have got soce people excited out there . too. Bet:ause these guys v&re a.ctua.lly harassing them--vere •o•tly young people. I'd say frOG fifteen to tile.'nty-tvo or three year• old---cventy-four. K: Teenagorat .,...__ I): And uh. they would be in eana• of tve.nty-fiv• or thirty ~.lking along cuealn.g you and cussing the blacks--cua•tng you for protecting them and just n continuous stream of harassment. And one night when we had a ~ .A 1/ui .J<- real big showdown, nw:iM e devils got hold of some fit"ecr.:ackcrs. " '• SJ lAB P•so 26 K: Yeah. 0: And they threw those firecraclc.ere in the.re, and those dogs- K: vent vi1d- D: lo the meantime. they sent us so-e doge c.hat vertn•t ve11 ttained over here f roa Raiford that- K: Prison? 0: Yeah. They weren't trained as well 08 our dogs. They hadn't li:id enough time. K: Yeah. 0: But uh, it was just a continuo\1.8, uh, talking 'cause our dogs ~you'd go by--you could . uh. do anything you. wnted to them. and he'd just be vatcbing his master. You could kick him. out of the v.ay or ;iny·tbing elae. But when you started by ooe of theae guye vith theit' dogs. he'd tell you, "Don't cot0e too cl ose to oy dog-don't coee too" And it was, you know, it was uh, because they didn't have that good of control over their dogs. K: They vere worried about lt.) 4'.l,A h ? 0: And uh, they were worried about-·ond I don't know whether--if anybody vae bitten by any of t he dogs, it was by one of the.ire because they didn't hAvc the control over it . When our dog& went down thnt street, it was n-- it voe a terr1fic thing to vatch. K: HnDa. They had cooplete control ovor thecuo.lvea. D: Oh yeah . It vas - it vas--of course, there vaa a horrible tra~ning period. lt vaa the worst cistreataent of ao.taale I 'd e-.er seen 1o ay life. but boy vhen they got- K: They had to beat them pretty hard to gee th~ to do that. D: Oh, I've seen them down a trainer and break hia orm, b~te hiG hand, . crush ., hio finger& and everything else, but, you know, wh~lc they're training thnm. ., SJ lAS Bridges P•ee 27 D: 'Cau.se if, you know, the an.il:ulls will just t.ake 10 ouch. It: Uh huh. D: &ut they'd get them so well trained th,t , uh, you could uh . he'd be . standing by thnt trainer nnd you could take a long bmaboo pole, and you could hit that dog. You could hit the mooter. You could hit all around him. And that dog just sit right there wotching, and of course-- K: As long as the ci.aater didn't tell him to do anything. D: You'd have all thla stuff vrapped on you, you know, .and {1nally he'd aay get·- and ma.a, that aon .. of .. a-gun va$ dovn on you before you. c.ould say " J,... ,, SCA.-.. K: llm!mmn. 0: But it was a horrible treatment they give them. K: 1 imagine. D: It vas beautiful to watch them in action, though. It: I'• not in your way? CM""""' be..clc~ COVI v~ s .. .-fie,., ~ .... i"d' "- I e"' v e - !/---. k. • ':::! :J D: No, uh huh. Re wa1 juat playing vi.th me. K: \lell, I think I hovu one last--oh yeah. "'e vore discussing Mr.lier that one fellow did got killed . Uh, he W30 riding through the bl~ck section of to•.m with n ahotgun on his 141p or S()fl)Qthina like thl'.lt. D: Yeah, he had--they'd uh, come back from huntiog and he had the shotgun behiee.n his fe.et, 11Uz1.l~ down. k: lbey had been hunting? D: Yeah. K: They had grune in the car? 0: No, they had no gaac. There was f our of them in the car. K: Uh huh. D: And they "ent by £ubanke, who wa$ 4-- K: Coldie Eubank.I? '·· SJ 1AB Bridges P33e 23 D: Goldie, yeah . K: Oh. D: They '~ent by his house to, uh, cuss him. K: Uh huh. D: And they vent by the house and this guy wns on guard and h~ shot him across the--when he made the turn sotns back u p~ K: Wa$ he-a g1.1y .:it Coldbttnk.s hou Gc? D: No , this was a full block away, but he--t he black. w.-s just shooting anyway. One of Goldie ' s nephews. K: Uh huh. D: And uh , he'd uh, he shot and killed the boy on the outside of the car. It went r ight by t he driver, and went by this guy, and hit this guy, and it killed him. Well he tightened up on the gun ~"hen he shot hi m, and the got went off in t he-- K: Went through the floor . him D: It went through the floor , and these t uys just drove/right strai$bt to the-- right to t he hospit~l. But then wa had a--•C worked and vork~ on the case 4nd had g,uys cOminS from cver~hcre , 3nd f1nally we found a black th~t lived next door to Goldie Euban\s who had given Richard Eub$nks his-- K: That's his nephew. D: This gun. K: Uh huh. What was it--i t vns a rifle? D: No, a pistol. K: A p1~tol~ .and he hit him froo a block a":.•ay? D: Juct cbot--he w.:)s juct shooting .it htm. K: Uh huh. D: Because they'd come by there and cuss~ him out, .ind uh, but hc~it -- actually it was a -- End of Side 1-Tape A SJ lAB !ridges Page 29 Beginning of Side 2-Tape A K: Well, anyvay, what were ve-- D: Actually it was n phyaica l impossibity for him to shoot. uh, to kill somebody that for, It's purely accidental. K: Trying to--yeah. II II 1 woe going to say nnd that vae o pistol. D: Especially with o handgun. 1C: Yeah- that'& a-I couldn't h.it that vall with a piatol, you know. D: Anyvay, ve- got tho--vcll, they gave 11e. the weapon. K: Uh huh. D: And we got his girlfriend. K: Yeah. D: And the--she dieoppearcd the day after she govc ue the information. And uh, she gave it to ua tn the presence of her bo1a, and uh- K: The lady th.at lived at the beach'? D: Yeah, Kiss Calhoun. K: Miss Calhoun. yeah, that's right. D: And uh, she was very, uh, proud--the girl v~• • very proud person. K: Uh huh. D: And uh, young lady, nnd she was also a good worker. K: Uh huh. D: And uh. in foct, ehe voe keeping a couple dollars a veek or so out of ho.r salary becau.se •ho •eked hta to. and she. had aaved quite a bit of aoney out of there--ot>out $35.00 or $40.00 or somath1ng. But uh, the next aft ernoon after I hco";d'f(.//i"Ji h~hat ho l\lld the venpon~af ter Eubanke had the wc3pon, ond uh. t h tt.t he had it that ntght. And t he other. man ooid tMt ho lookod out the window and e1n1 Eubank.& r unning af ter the s hootint. K: lccediately after the shooting. huh? ·. SJ l.llB :Bridges D: Who .1•-·wh.lch ie right--he lives about three blocks from there on Ceotral--the uh girl dieoppeercd. And uh. thc~our witness didn't CO!De to court the f irat day when he vaa supposed to testify aod ve ae:nt out ond got hla. A.nd he worked at one o( the local banks parking core and atuff like thot. And uh, so the judge put him in ja~l over night. And the next doy, the HMCP had an attorney here from Tal.lahassee who, uh, re.luaM to let hta telti!y vhe:n-vhac'& Ms naoe-the c.olored boy waa Cheater, and uh- K: Is t]\at hla laat na11et 0: No, 1t'a his firat naae. I can't think of this last name, but be uh, when K: D: K: D: K: D: thia attornoy came in, said he vat--113nt1n8 to see his ellent-Chester. \I II I said., vell he doesn't have an attorney. He doesn't need an attorney. He vasn' t accused of anythin,g. ,, He va1 teacify1ng for tho State. He said well I was hired to II So 1 went and I aaid, 1 asked Chester, I said, do you have an ,, repr·esent him. attorn~y? "H e 11 ,, ,, said no. So 1 went back and told that attorney~ l said, you ' re not repre- acntin& him. '' I uoid,1 1 ho's o grown man, he 's married. I I And l told him that ,, ti he docen't want you to rcprcee1't hi•. with that , he aoeo upstoira and tolks h:$ or.I. trs dt.,..,,,, l just got through telling you. So .s-~s to the judge. And the judge odccsu'c anid hi.11 mother Rnd father hi?;ed hiat. Was thie judgo 1 ~ 80,Q/.#(,,_-ff.11 ?) ~ No, thia judge ia, uh. uh, ht UcibWtUC • Mel+~ let's 1ee L,/LJ wt.J 1Jv..tc1rcuit court judge ? I .. Mc'ho"rn•? fl e..1 ~ . I I And uh, a.a.id you l'ULve to II let hi• talk to hill. Sol let hio talk ~to him, and he got up whcfn he CAM up to the trial •I testify because it vill incri•lnate ht.. ,, the attorney says be can't K: l!ooa. SJ lAB Bridges Page 31 gv.t- Vie ''1· ,, f\e.'ef ~. you knov, ~ figured - :....,' fi--:S'-"l- hav.ing the gun, .:i..:il:mmizc: ..,.,, 1.!U.t , D: as i t ~ incr ialin3te him. K: Yc:Ah. D: :Well, the judge ruled for him so we lost our case. But the Eubanks boy~ about three or four ui.onths later-- K: He was fishing on the bridge? D: No , he was shooting- -hc was out here at Florlda-at Normal College. K: Yeah . D: Re had it out here. And uh, he had a gun, 3nd he walkQd up to a car where there were five stude·nts. K: From the Normal College? D: Yeah. And he told the one in the middle in the back seac--he sat.cl you've been going around with my girl and uh, he said I'm sick and tired of it. And the other said I don ' t know who your girl is. You must me talking out of your hat. And with thot, Eubanks shot him and shot him in the it .. , jaw, and uh,/loft t he man paralyzed. He's from down in the state soc=eplnce-- Ft. Louderd4le ~ \ e.;. . K: Yeah. D: So we got f inally got r id of Eubanks for-- K: For that. D: For five or ten yea.rs . K: Uh huh. D: We got for that K: Well after this name . D: Can~d. K: can.;(r"d. ,; Canard. shooting. v/..ite. uh, theAman was killed, Glen Kenard, I believe, was his !--,apparently about four nights later or so the vhites retaliated and blew a few windows out of, uh . dancing placea or something. SJ lAB Bridge• Pogc 32 D: Yuh, tMt'a--uh huh. Yeah . they shot the jook jolots up. K: Yuh. D: They'd just ride by and shoot the vindows out. K: Now when you were investigating this--did you h3ve to orre$ t Haling? D: Did ~ling get in your way in that 1nvest1gntiont No, 1--uh, the only t1.e I evcr~ the only tlme I when he was sitting in the bar out at the .otel, arrested Ha.ling wa.s the foxakf.tfJfU.ounge. K: Yeah. D: Vith Mrs. Peabody and uh. the b1shopS~colored btthop's vife. K: Uh huh. D: From Ma.ssachusetts. And Haling, and a. white tirl thnt was wi th Mra. Peabody down here, and uh, she insi.eted thot I gee the Flor ida Statute•·•. K: Uh huh. D: .~.And read the full thing D: Because I talked to her a couple of times. and I begged her not to go out t o that jail. It wasn't a fit place for a vo11o1n her age. K: Uh huh. O: And uh. well, thi• day ehe--I said ~hy. vhy do you want to do thie? And K: she said, vell 1 have to because they told .._ they vanted me to go to jail s? I'a going to the jail U it'll help. Then when I got Mrs. Pt:Abody out .ic: jail, the--&ll of the vh1t.c etl.la are fill.ed ao she and tMa girl-she wanted a bunk co alccp on, and I said vell you'll have to kick one of the old bate off o! it--'4111' old prostitutes nnd etuff we'd had in the jail ~ bt.-r~ ttnd uh, 80 &ho was--and then ehc ooid Ghe wanted her friend, the bishop's wife in there with her. Yeah. D: And, of course, I told then, I s.aid do y'all aind il we bring the b~ahop'a " SJ lAD Bri.clges " I I ,, D: vife in here. and they ea.id yeah. bring her 1n here. We'll kill her . K: llmmo. D: ,. I/ And not only thot , ve'll kill this old battleaxe here , too. n ,. ve don't want no nlggera in here vi.th ua 1~1ch was a com:ion them to a.ay. They wore rough people. K: Yeah. They said thing for D: An.-yvay. th• uh, tho--ve bad Hartin Luther King out there in jail, and uh, he got a-it got kind of atlcky While he was out in jail. The blacks and vMt•I all c.,.. out thorc. And they were all r.a.islng hell . So I called the governor and 11ke.d hta to aend me an order tT~nsferring King to-- K: To Jackaonville , va1n't it? D: To Jacksonvill e, and uh, ' cauee that~all of them said thei veren't going to, uh , post bond . they were goin.g to stick it out. So I knev, uh, when 'Kin.g got up thcro. He couldn' t stand it 'cause he can't, uh, he's out-he' s up there bonded to my jail and they von't let him t.tllk to anyone. K: Ycoh. D: ' Cauue he' e ay pr:11oner. K: Yeoh. O: So he stoyed up there overnisht . end t hen he bonded him.self out tho next day , ond looves all of his buddies here, see. {(~s) K: Wasn't that ~hon he went up to Yale and got an hono,~ry degree? O: Yeah , uh huh. X: I believe that vtll the tiee wh~n he went up to get his honorary degree. Woll, uh, lot •a 1co. Uh, 1 believe during '63 again, uh, Judge Mathis, am I pronouncing itt \ D: Kathie. &: H.'lth1o. D: Ye.ah. · •. ,, SJ lAB Bridges Page 34 K: He uh, ruled that the juveniles couldn't picket. Uc oaid that, you kno'IJ, they couldn't participate in the ait-in. D: No, there vere--1 think there was tw girls that participated 1n o sit-in. K: Yeah. D: And uh, he brought them 1.n the.re--ve did. And they were-be vae juet as nice to them. He wa• also the juvenile judge and the COW1ty Judge, too. K: Yeah. 11 D: And he talb.d to them and ea.id, nov I'a goi1tg ,t,o turn you over to your parents provided that you don ' t do thl• •gaitl. K: Ye:lh. D: And they 10id they were going to do it anytime: they wanted _fo-'-''--"" ~ " ,. ~ says oluly. So be a.cot thea ewer to the girl'• achool- cotte.c.t.lon school, and~~'hich caused 3 lot of stink 'cause the bl4cks would to and ~ayl4iy the deputy ond, you knO\oi, that wos the vorkings . tc.: Yes. D: But I tell you the funay incident happened vhilc Mr•. Peabody was out there in jAil. Her son , vho is an ordoined £piscopolion =iniatcr-- K: WhO was alao the governor. D: And , well thia 1-s anothe.r eon. K: Oh a difforont one. D: And he'8 n boozer. And he'a got his collar on and he ' s going from bar II to bar.. Every tic:e he hits a bar, they tell hia, Kro. Peabody's eon is II on the way out to the county jail to aa.e bis 100thcr. So he get.a out there. nbout 11:30 or 12: 00 at night. So I 'm out tt there and I'm waiting Ond he II // c.occ& in and he &ays, 1 wo.nt to talk to •Y mot her. And 1 said t 'm not going to wake your mother up at 11:30-12:00 at n.lght. II 4nd get in that cab and get yourself oway f rom here. You bet~~r go out I lle S3YS , l ' ll stay SJ lAB Page 35 D: K: D: , , right here 'til I see ay mother. l said, 111.is ten, drunk.a are not allowed ti in this jail unless they're behind the bats. Ho .... ~AA t'< Ava-r> f t1 rtM.s ~ .... 1.' (( ~4.f.) I aaid I can throw you in th.at cell in thftre and you' l.l sober up by morning and you c.o.n sec your mother. I said you ' re: going to lcava or you're going to j•ll. He says I-- When he .. td that, I said put h.ll:I in it. Boy, vhen l said that he was out the door. K: Uo was out the door. D: He told his mother the next aorni.a.g that her drunk aon cOQe staggering around. She didn' t like it much, but ho didn't come back out thore either. But you knOW', you'd be eurprised vhat a- how nuch t~ouble a bunch of teouge ldd1-'Young Ude can give you. K: Ycoh. D: 1 •an they can think up the darnedest thin&•· They got socae-aoee uh, Highlight to nproy on~you know, it's a--rcal hot. I've forgot what the beck you call it. Anyway, they put it in these sp,r.a yguna and coae by and eprayed 1-t. And if 1-t got on your legs or something, it'd bli.etor you in '.just a fev minutes. lt vas tho darnedest-- K: Wa• it an acid type of thing? D: Yeoh. And uh, of coureo, in tha march , all the old bl~ck vomen all had baskets, and we'd stop them uptown. They'd ho.v• theee baskets fu.11 of half bricks and acid to throw- on you. K: You mruin the bldcks were corr y-ing &.. t. ~ J i ti 1/-.¢.; r · ·' ? D: Yeah, QOt acid, the uh , potash. K: Oh, poteah. D: Yeah. And uh, t hey'd uh , have these da·rn, uh , bricka and we 'd dump t hem •, out t the atdevall:.s 1A little pUea~k.e Little p.1lea of the•. And then eo:A~tet S~J.oo~ome atons and pick them up and cake chem up chore. (!,,. ~~A' '- SJ lAB Pogc 36 ~ridges D: They had • big-he hod about t10-o or three bushels of rocks and stu(C they taken ovu-lce pick.1 . And always-it waa always the old old wocen that had tht•. X: That rigb t? D: But. you know, they--to shov you hov bad thAt things got-the city or the~l gave ordQre to my deputies that they vercn't to go over there and ju:sp in that ocean. K: Oh huh. D: Unless soc:.ebody vaa bein.g drovned or scve.rely but.en. Well, when they eaoe over to go evi .. ing, naturally, all thcee young men are over there in shor ts . bathin.s tninks. K: The young whitca? D: Yeah. K: Oh huh. D: Berc are the blacb in pants and sbirta and dr•••e.s and everyth:1n1!> ao these guya are throvin.g sand at them, vh.ich b not a hottiblc thing. I mean a handful of sand is not goin& to kill a.nybody. K: It ain't going to hurt you, no. D: But there't alwnya D lot of , uh , and then vhan they'd get out in tho. voter, vell tho •t•te highway patrolman, inatead of stopping at the vater, and uying look we're not--doo't have, uh, bath.i.n.g suit.s. W• ean't go out thoro now to holp thca. They'd - you'd go out there. Veil, he.re's thie poor devil in full untfora, •ide.arm , billy. #ll that darn heavy unifona on. K: Uh huh. D: Out ther e tryin3 to compete vith:l.l bunch of kids that's been swimming all their live1.-A bunch of Mtnorc.;>ns and they' re dunking the devil out of this highvay p.atrol, and t:he bl.a.cit oou. "· SJ 1AB Bridges tage 37 K: Oh yeah, the highway patrol vor,o getti.ng it D: Oh sure, Dan - -overseas and all, heck they can' t--What they going to do-standing out there in the v'ltcr about seven or eigh t feet deep and thaeo I guys awtm•ing around, ond go underneath thee and jerk theQ under and ~ ~~~ K: They we.re that--they were out that far? t thought they ' d only get knee deep. D: No, they'd so out, tand then when they'd cOC1e in they'd go to, ~od they'd <'Ill jump in the fresh wo.tcr pool. and they'd have to cle$n their weapon•·\ and their unifores and cvoeyth.tng. K: Yeah . D: But uh, •ctually it was-th.Ina• like that, you ko.ov. you think back on them--werc really funny bec• uee no one was t rying to dr~ anyone. K: No? D: they'd--no one got even cl ose to being drowned over there. Of course. they tore 80Cle •utccobilee up over there. Ii:: Ye.ab. D: And uh , vhcn they'd 3ct, uh, one of the tvo black• , uh, boys separated-- K: D: They'd bop the tar out of tham. K: Yeah. D: You ltnov. K: Be.at on the• pretty good? D: Beat on them, and a lot of tirneo the blacks'd cOCllC out on top, too. There ' • eOflle pretty tough kids. They beat the tar out of some of the white boys. K: Uh huh. D: Wt had one g1rl vt called , uh, $111okey the ~.,r. She must b.:ave voighod 240 or SO pounds . SJ l.AB Bridges Pogo 38 X: Black girl? D: Yeah. She was cnoraou•, and l think she waa •bout seventeen or eighteen years old. And one day I was standing and all these \ICre- -white boys were running around, you ·M·-lOW, «,,.,.;. n\~""·,~:.1:1J on one every time t hey sot n chance, and throwing ennd on them. And uho wau atend1ng up ther e . And some of thetll hod got them. some surveyor atoke1. K: Yeah. D: Actually they'to aot h~avy enough to hurt, but they're he.avy enough to bruise aod uh, bl-1.ster you U they hit you across the r~r end vith one. And she vs1 1tandins up cbi?:re and every time one of those white boys cace within rench of her , that big fat hand en.me out ond sh0 vould al#p the• on that hard beach and they'd roll just like.-j(/~~~) tin things, and boy, it wa,s the darnedest thing you 've ever seen/I flelI. natura1ly1 it vae funny. And l was up there laughing and tb~s old guy vas staoditlg and vatch.ia.g the.a and he said." b oy I'd give $50.00 if ti II I/ I could get her in the Xlan . And I said why? And he said , "She could whi.P evet'y one of these niggers out here in no time . 11 lie said , "LOok what •he' e doing to "'Y boys." (7 ~'l-S') K: Who is th3t th~t iB tolking? D: An old Xlansman atonding up there . K: Yeah. t/ ,, D: He ~y$, uh, ••Y• bo1. t'd give $50. 00 to get her in that Xu JUux Kl4n . K: Were the boys on t .he b~ach harassing the bl•ckl--vere they mostly organized by the Klan or wre they just out by thcmiselves? O: No, no, li, ._K' . ., K: just olAt tpr.,. D: .,,T\lo thirds of cha time, they, uh, vouldn't--anybody wouldn't even knov t .hat they went to the beach, except the: fact that thoy would ride around ·. ·~. . SJ lAB Br idges Page 39 D: the park three or four times to get a bunch of people int ereGted in them. So that--and then, by the ti=~ they got around the park 3 couple of t imes--we.11, by t hat time, the white boys wou.ld start organizing to follow them over there. K: Yeah. D: So ther e ' d be a motorcade of inaybc seven or eight loads of blacks and maybe t~'O or three loads of whitee. It didn ' t have to be too many whites to create a disturbance, you know. K : U?1 huh . D: Well , thcy'd- - boy they'd sand ball them and~ K: Would you--as a kind of a whole--wbat--do you th~nk the Klan ~~ D: No, none. They, uh, they were ninety-eight -fr.m. percen)\out-of-t own. much influence in the white reaction or , uh-- K: Mostly from Jacksonville, weren' t they? D: Jacksonville ond Starke and Palatka and Bunnell. Anyway, they'd come II 11 over for a night of fun, you know, have fun. But they-- D: But like this stuff on the beach and stuff like that--what~you don't think th3t was o rganized by t hem. D: No , 'Cn\D ...fi..·r ~ , 'it vas too s pont aneous. K: Spontaneous. That's kind of what I think. You read some~yo u read some people, and they get the idea thot> you know> the Klan had this whole think ...ar sballed and organized. D: No. K: Well, I only have one more question to ask-- I wante tt> ask you about '63, and then we can move on to 164. Because I read at one place wher6~ uh, llaling made a comment that he had, you know, he complained-..I" t2.~·f-'Jr:;,.,,.~ complained about police protection or socething 1 that he had formed himself his own little at111y. SJ lAB Br idges Pog• 40 D: Yeah, he had about eight or ten. I was down at his house the other ic.orning vhcn he coae-- K: Yeah, you were telling me about that one time. D: But uh, there were no--he had him about eight or t~ more ••• There was about three of them---three or four of them-- young men--that were on his littla GA _ _,,o2r-~j+·.:.·:.;·• c__ K: Were they mostl y under twenty-one or somevherc around thQre? D: I'd say they were between eighteen and twenty-four. K: Uh huh. D: Cood husky boys. They knew wh'1t they vere do·ing . K: Yeah. D: They took care of chc--of t bese~cause t he average white kids was a lot tnnal 1e r. K: Yeah. D: But these--these eight or ten he had , they took C4re of the i r end of it. They were pretty tough boys. K: Yeah. That ' s interesting. Wel l , just from the, you know, ~ct iv~tica that Haling could s t ir up and the two barber s, did you think that , uh, you know, all the marches and the wait- ins and wbnt not were going to come out of what you saw that happened in '63 or--? D: No, I didn't. 1 thousht th3t they wore losing ground, actually. K: Ub huh. D: Because uh , their spokesman wosn ' t, uh, he wasn ' t a person that they had a l ot of faith in, a,n, d uh, the kind that jus t says, well, K: Yea.h. he wasn't a man that could, uh, he was IP you're soing to do wb.3.t we tell you •••. II D: Or else ve going to make you crawl and stuff like that , you know, which d1dn 1 t sit good with the city commission at all. .. SJ l AB Bridges Page 41 K: Uh huh. D: And uh, 'cause everybody's doing all they can to help the"m . K·: Oh, from ..,hat I r ead that, uh, sometimes Haling or Haling did have a pretty ha~d time. meeting ..,ith the commission to discuss the black griev.onces. D: Yeah , ..,ell, if he did, it was his own fault 'cause Joe Shelly was th'e K: D: K: aayor that year, and he was a--he always leaned over b3Ckwards trying to find out what they- '"'What their a:Lms were and al.l the other city ~f$ com:missioty\ were the same way, but uh, if uh, if t come before the city commission for a ~equest, t have to state what my request is. Uh huh. If " 1 don't go up there and say, you white mothers going to do this or we going to tear this town down. We going to make you crawl on your hands It and knees and stuff. It was n direct threat all the t ime • . Yeah . And Haling .would, you kno.,, W~~COYN! i:r-::f" (,"./ce +f.. ;~ D: Yeah, he~-and uh, the uh , naturally, the city commission being human resented it. You don't like to be tol d in your 01.ll\ city cooanlssion room ? that you're &Oing to ~ithc~ do this or you're going to destroy your town. K: I 've never rc~d anything About this so Haling would actually go to the city commission me.eting& and say-- D: Yeah. K: t--you know- - if you don't meet this demand, you're all going to crawl or something to that effect? II N D: Yeah, he said we'll m.akQ you crawl on your hands and knees and be~ us. K: Ye.ah. D: They put on a--I 'm going to shO'W you how tough this town got . The biggest motel that we h3vc in St. Augustine at that titn.o w~s across the bridge on the lcf t-hand side and belonged to a tn.ln nam~d Earl Michaels. ·.•. .. ' •. SJ lAJI Bridges Page 42 K: Yeah. D: Earl Mich3cl went thirty- three days without one customer. The biggest mote1 we had in St. Augustine. K: This was during, uh , was '64? D: ' 63 or ·~. K: ~as it due to the black pickets or the whit~ counter-pickets? D: It wasn't due co any pickets. The K: Just a loss of business. D: The--they picketed up in Jacksonville at the airport and at the Mary-- St. Mary's River they said don't ·go near St. Augustine. Actually, the u.h .. -a lot of this was the s tate employees telling them what a tough time. ve's having down here. K: Uh huh. D: And uh, in St. Augustine. So they-- K: They just nvoidcd-- I>: They bypassed us. I<:: Yeah. D: But you k~ow, that's a horri ble thing when a man's got $150--$200,000 invested in a motel and he goes thirty- three days without one customer. K: That's> tough { ~ ' t ''i;, to go that way. It i s. All right, well-well, since we're talking about Ualing, now we can get back to what we we-re discussing about earlier befor~ we had the tape on. What do you think were the, uh, affiliations between Haling and the NAACP and the NCLC and co~unis t organ~zat ions? D: We11 uh~ 1 don't know whether-don't know where llal:ln& came froc ~ , actually . K: Uh huh. D: We never investigated him because we didn't feel like he was too important, but he was a headline seeker, you know. ···~ SJ lAB Bridges 'Page 43 K: Woll--well J4f ~ irt f(J'V..tom what I recall I, you know, specifically ~~-f;-4~:_,R,~~~~~ that he woa a vetersn of the Korean W~r and he went to, uh, Florida State or--no, it must have been F. A & MU., uh, on a grant to, you know, to get his vet or--no--to get his dcncisc- -dentist license. And then, you know, some sort of contract ~so nt him over to St. Augustine. But anyw3y, now you can U:!:J. fin 1A.L • D: I just think he was a -- h «- - - Of course. he had the ... -had some good points. If he have--1 believe he would ~ve donti'a lot bet ter i f he would have had enough sense to realize that you ca1'l' t, uh, do this thing by force. K: Uh huh. D: You know. But uh, h~ felt that what he would do would antagonize tho white people so much that they would actually try to kill socebody, which they didn't do. All they wanted to do was have a good time, and b(Ul.t the tar out of people, that's all. But uh, he uh, the night I tried to talk to him down at the Flagler Hospital when he got beat so bad1 I a-sked him what the heck he was doing down there, and uh, be sa:id 11 II just riding around. We11, you don't take no Palmetto Route road and drive 3 mile ond ftve-oights just to ride around. K:: Yeah. D: 'Cause that's the only v3y they could have goti:there except right up through that mo.in alley. And uh, when I got out there, I left qy car down at the highway, ~nd uh, 1 left my gun in the car and took my--left my badge on. K: Yeah. D: And when 1 walked up that roadway- -that uh~th~t was the longest half nile I ever walked in my l ife. K: ~a.f ii ... 16'$. • SJ lA& Page 44 0: Because uh, all thoac. uh, Klansaen were thero, end I vas afraid. cocao K: D: of thCliOI vouldn't rocogaizo me. And uh, would they pass the •-or-d all t• I I the vay up--the ahariff's coming up--the sheriff's coming up. And a lot of them walked right by ma--never spoke or anything. Of cou~sc, they didn 1 t Mvc a IN16k on. 1lirew-I~,,. And vhen I got--vben I got up there, I didn't expect to see .anyone alive. K: Were most of the Klonaaen-uh--vere t:hey Ccoa Lhe local area or vere-did they come down from Jacksonville or-- D: They-- they came from--well, .far away as Lo.kc City, t )/\1 t....5ine_ • Now I don't now how many would come from Jackaonville. Now I knew some cuie from La" City and I b\e1-1 soee C4IM froa Ocala. K: Yeah. D: And uh, because their, you know-, because of their car tags. K: Yeah. D: And uh, a lot of t1111C& they would have weapons in the trunks of their K: Yeah. 0: Jut by the aaiDC tok.C!n you can•t--you couldo't orrcet a man for having • veapoii in. hie car. J:: Would-did the u.n t-h.at you u" from the St. Au;g areal D: Well, I guess there va1 isaybe forty or fifty out of the, uh, the big-- the' thtng--thc rC410n they caoe~-the Klan coac here, 1 think, vas becn.uae they figured it WOA 0 SOod place to get A lot of members. They-- ' ... K: __l- J""-.'P-'S'---''f/-v-.;-f'·-_-____ with the:, uh, n.ltorcations a.nd stuff, uh huh. Di Yeah, they uh, ve.re charged $10.00 to join the Klan. K: Yeah. SJ 1A8 Bridges Page 45 D: And the flr~t night woa the night tlult the trouble started> and then-- then tho judg• ordered me to, uh, go up there the n~xt night and have •ome deput101 pr•1ent. And uh. actually it was a~it got, uh-- it wasn't sticky at all. E'verybody ju,s, t gets up I 11eao. fo-r hour• ot a ti•. They just J urn4dMm and cusses th~ rdgg~s. II niggers~ nigger&. It wa1 juat the aaa• thing being repeated a11 the time . K: Yeah. va.1 juat a for. of arou.seeent. They didn't: bother oe at all. nlaht ":.:':.:':.:'-- K: Uh huh. D: When tho judge ove.r-tMt SiJtp•on insisted that I belong to the taa.a. I finally told hiJD, I said judge, l VH out to a Klan rally at your orde.r. I said they wa.nted $10.00 to join. I said but I s:h1 Dr. Ra.ling and his t ·wo men ond the in1t1ot1on ia so horrible. that I don't believe I could atand it. K: Woll- "'cll t.1hat do they do for the in1tl.ation? D: Nothing. t wao juat tDlking obout the three blaeks tha t got be3t. K: Oh-- oh, I sec. I see. D: So 1 caw the rosults of it. K: that was too much. huh. D: I said that's too tough for mo. 1 couldn't stand it. K: I eee. D: And he didn't llko it •uch. but I never sav people change s.o fast. The day we had, uh, Mrs. vhot you call it up here. K: Peabody? D: Peab,o, dy. Tbe judg.-ahc told the judge wby she cm::e down httc. and she said the, .• herlff told M two or three tiees that he was going t ·O put ae in Ja.11, •• K: Yeah. " -. SJ ).All Bridges Page '6 II D: ,, ,And be8ged me not to do it--not to do what I was doing. And the judge II K: s31d to her~-and says--well. when yo,,u keep putting a rope around your neck you're bound to gee rope burns. ln other words. ever ything was fine the first day. The next day we so up there, we're all ~ bunch of no good so and suchcs. H=. D: And we had a--we have a guy that writes for the ~~right now. His name is Hank Draf\4.< K: Yo.ah. D: Hank Drain was here the whole timQ, He walked with me. a deputy. or somebody. And he often &aid, "The best thing in the wol'ld we could do is to put that guy underneath the jail--that Martin Luther King--"" · forever." He ha.ted him. He was the \IQrst buzzard he'd ever seen- - a r at t lesnake in disguise and everything. K: Everything he could think, yeah. D: He despised him. The n1.ght that M.artin Luther King got killed, he called Chief Stt7'(art, .-i talked to St~art. He called ue and I said, '' II K: ''well I juet hc3rd about 1t. I said but Hank, by the sru:nc token, I I/ s~id you know what a buzzard he is and what we've put up with here . JI I I 11 II And uh, he sai yeah, I 'm going to burn him up. He said you watch . He a31d 1 l •m sick and tired of making a hero out of htm 1 • 1 The next day I don't sec anything of Hank Dra~ The following day here's this beautiful article how Hank--uh--W'I'itten .by lL"lnk l>rain--just the opposite of what he told us for months and· months and ~onths here in St. Augustine. Uh huh . D: And vhat he told me. the night before. K: !.,,,,,,.. D: In. uh. on the phone. •., SJ lAB Bri_dge& Page 47 K: D: K: Well, :;; ~ .s ""a aaybe be figuTed bec•u•e he vaa dead he, you bov, he vasn't going to hurt the - --'e'-u_f_o,.z;..,g'I---- on ,.t-he way out. No. Mhat he figured Whon he--t think what happencd-- whcn he took h~s -- beautiful article in there and threw it on that editor's pape'llon. tho top of the d(!&k--vhtn that-- He said thia is-- A c cu;h atscs• A t C•(l e { t't:. j C, e.t f' Cf~;) 0: Tb.is is the oppo•ite. He said you-Martin Luther Xing's a hero. Do you understand that? And changed hi.s whole line of thl.nklng. K: But do you think--6 you think that King !2!. affiliated vith coaauni•t help? D: Yes. I told you. 1 believe in ~Y OWn mind that, u~. when King attended that Communist ochool in, uh, Ten.nessce. I had picture& of it and I wa.s present on three different occassions vheo nevsmen asked ht.a if he attended the cocamuni•t school. K: Uh huh. D: And if that vae hie picture in there. And on every occassion, he 4aid it vas none of their bueineee. He cvadal tho question. He never denied attending the coanunist school. X: Uh huh. D: Another thing that up1et1 me about it. He violated a federal injunction Tbe federal eourt had an 1njunct1oo. ~ttJnst him, · '"(kr~c.+s t.o •t•y out of Kcm:phis bceau.ae or the death -c:::p... by g.ol n3 to Keaph1o . . . C.f\ J DI~ I 'lj hia X: Y .. b. D: He violated the federal laws and vent right on into Hcmphia and got killed . If you rcma=bor correctly, he hod just comb b~ck f rom a ' beautiful trip to Ru11ia . And he was in Russia for several veeks. And he ~e back from Russia and then I think he got the. uh, beautiful award for-a Nobel Peace Prize that year, whic.h he vas entitled to about •, SJ lAB Bridges Page 48 D: as much as any, uh, lawbreaker. TI1e--uh, you know, I hQar p~ople say why did you. do this? Why did you put him i n jail? " Well, because you got 3 state law. A D\3n calls you and says I vant this ~an in j~il. What arc you going to do . say no, I ain't going to put him in jail. I'm going to let him stay here. You can't do it. Not and keep your job. But uh, vc had real good luck with him. And uh . we--thosc .ire the only thl'ee blacks thilt I've heard of that were during that whole tioe that were really injured. And they got injuted because they went to a place they shouldn't have gone . Alri3kt. K: ~ Why do you think King chose St. Augustine to focus on during the sumt!'ler of • 64? D: Because of, uh, Dr. Haling's actions . .f.,.,- here/ispecific purpose of, uh, creating as much trouble as he could in 1 think Haling was brought down order to g~t this ball rolling. They had to start soaewheruld tell him, and he would take~ it was all of the class. All of the teachers would march with them. You understand what I mean? K: It was the whole place. D: Oh yeah. They'd all come stand. And uh, they molested nobody. K: Uh huh. D: They didn' t have any arguments or any trouble. They would just go up to the, uh, the foot of the bridge, and uh, all of them would ., sing a few s~ngs, you know, school songs and sometimes rel1g1ous songs 'cause it was aM-I think it was a baptist- oriented school in the first place. K: Uh huh. D: And uh, then they 1d go on back. A lot of times they vould M.ve 4 bu.s come pick them ''P· 8ut they were the best behaved people you ever saw. K: And did th~ White hecklers ever give them any trouble? D: Never never bothered them in any way. K: Really? That's interesting. D: Never-- K: So the--so the white--the white counter-deconstrators would just key - orie tl+e,.e on the uh, SCLC., "h; 'r a. &lht g-roups. SJ lAB Bridge8 Pose 52 D: Yeah. local and- -uh . key on the locals and the out of tO\olfl~ rs . K: Uh huh, bu t they'd leave the college students alone? D: Yeah . Never--never--1 don't think we ever had one incident out there. K: Mm:mn. So in t e rcs of, uh, in terms of, you know, wh3t kind of 1Z1easures you'd take, you've alteady said several times that you had--or you stated at least once that, you know, "hon --when King was in jail you had to, you know, t ake him up to Jack$onv11lc becousc all t he riots and what not, but when he came into town, was it a different situation? Or did°you have to take extra precautions or did you have to, uh, how did his presence change things? D: Uh, well they--they uh became more vocal, and of course. when be travelled h~- l guess he had at least, uh, thirty people with him. K: Uh huh. D: Which is o big a.moun t for a little ole town like this, you know. And uh . ve uh, we didn't have to--hc--he uh, vas fairly abusive in his own way over the TV, you know, but he alvays struck me as being, uh, on some kind of, uh, dope vhen he vould speak on TV . I don't know whether you ever saw him or not. l<: No, l 'm too ,Yc.:O"u,,n,.s._ ____ _ 0: His--his eyes would just--boy, they would just glisten. Just l ike he-- but he knew what he was saying. And uh , the--and he had--he had some bully boys with hiei, \1h , the, uh, like I was telling you , this uh thing after 11:00 at night, when Virsi.l and l were enjoined to--to leave him a lone, but we had to protect him. Tbey--one ntsht they almost got the whole hlnch "'1.ped out . The blacks did. K: Ob yeoh. D: The--a11 of the mer chants in town were good friends of .Jimmy Brock who f'-~•"5'>~ r~n a motel--the ~. ···~ 1- ·-.. SJ lAB Bridges Page Sl K: Tho "M'~ff Id\.~n "'!" ' D: Right on Boy Street. K: Uh huh. D: And uh, they Dnrched up thero •bout 12:lO th~t night and uh . decided to go ~. Well, tbete p•ople arc 411 buaineRA people thst I'n c.alking about~ school teacher• and bu•ine•• people. K: More re1pectible. D: Te..s. They're in t:here and they have baseball bats. K: 1be ~•in••••en and aturft D: Tea. K: These voren ' t the young vhltc toughs or the JCXX or anyt~? D: No, that'• vhero t got ninety percent of 11lY narchers were froaii the bu.ainess people that protected the blacks. K: Uh huh. D: ~ben they were m.arch1ng--"1ere businessmen f roc St. Augus tine t hat owned buainesacs all the woy around that pork--all t he vay up St. George Str eet- - Son Marco. They come every night just aa regular as a cl ock. K: to protect tho marchers? D: To protoct t ha marchore. K: But when-but when King o,nd h is group we.n t into t he ~n t hen they ver e holdin.g the baseball bncet D: Yeo sir. They aaid that if they-they ...,.rc.u ' t going to let them i n t her e . And l tried ond 1 told them. I D4id you guys are not going. I says you 're goint to get the whole bunch kill•d. K: Why did thoy aake a sudden reversal when one night prot ecting the'b1Bcks, then the next night ready to beat on thea? D: Wel-1, i.n t .he firat place , they--we arl'ested Hartin Lut he.r King at the M O. l\S.,.., MnJsea place. --- --- --- -- SJ lAB Bridges Page S& K: Yeah. f'\><"Sor\ D: The next night there wan a fire bomb thrown in the M&Oeon. K: Uh huh. D: Froa--lt dld quite cxtenaivc docwage. K: Yeah. D: Of cour•e, ve felt the blukl threv it in there because they arrested ling there. K: 1 thought-1 though that flre bomb hit a little later after the Civil Right• Act had paeted. D: No, thia vat be.for•. l'• eure it vas . Anyvay, tbc.s-e guys vere all. upset when they heard that they ~ere going, uh, the~tbe--vhat, uh , \oil.at happened va.1 a black caoe-a vb.ice aan came in .end rented a room in the Hunson. K: Yeah. D: then he geta on the phone and call.1 the guys up and they com~ dovn, go 1n hia room, put on their bnthing auits, and go swimniing in the pool. Well, no--you c-0n't do that nt any QOtCl nnywhere, whether you're white or black. You can ' t, uh, h4vc visitors unless they tell you you ca.n. Tbit r•ieod A big otink thot a f ternoon. ln foct, they said they vere going to put an ellis,Ator in the pool. It JJ K: Is that when Brock octUlllly poured that ureatic acid i n there. (°(~../..~ J D: Ye.ah, yeah. And .uh , to keep them out. K: Yenh. D: And uh, now .&rt:in Luther Hng was at.eying right across the bay on che K: Uh huh, D: Nov 1£ anybody vMted to. uh. beat Hartin Luther Ung up, he bad. four or five .. t\ vith b.19 there. If anybody had vaoted to beat Kat"tia Wt.her Ung • .. SJ lAB Bridges Posa SS D: up. or thrO hie in that place. all they bad to do i .• just t.:J!llk acroe.s Bay Street and puah hi• overboard off the st.a vall. K: Uh huh. D: No one molested hi111. K: l!mmm. D: tto one bothered hi• ot a.11. He l eft and th~n thcy--thc white can that rented the rooe aaid that they'd be back that night to see him. SO by that tiae people had-all the business people are getting pretty riled , md uh, th• y didn't i:arch 'til J..ote. And vhen they eau up, well these people vnrc all standing there. K: ~,~? D: Yeah, good bueinoe• people and-- X: That's intere.&tin3. D: ~"- / and they vere vaiting ao.d t be.gge.d thue people . I said you- I said 11t he bad part of i t is none of you guya that are leaders are going to go get hurt. You're not goin.g up there. You' re going to push these little kidS artd theae old men 4nd women up there." K: Uh huh. II D: That's what' you're going to do. You1 re aoJng to force them up there and these guy& aro going co knock the t ar out of them. And you ought, ,t o be ash.aced of your1elvea-taldng advantage of thee• poor old people. So l finally got tbea aoving and uh. they vent on down to uh-- K: That was t-hc block• thot you were telling that to? D: Ye4h. And so l.'O moved them on down to the slave mo.rket. K: Yedh. ~ovcd them on down the road . D: Which i s where thoy wanted to go anyway. but they just decided to walk on thic ci.on'• private propert y , and 1 tried to explain to t hem. that tlde i s not a street. 1hi• ia thisaan's prlvate property here. And. you've " SJ !AB Bridges Page 56 D: got to honor it. You've got to have a little respect for it. K: D: Uh huh. 11 No, ~c'rc going to march on there. 1 sald, well it ' ~ up to you. 1 1111 don't have anythi ng elao II 11 tosi.y--just go right ohcad. You ain't goi ng to prot ect us? l ••id protect you against II protect you from--your ovn stupidity? whot. What am I going to K: Uh huh. D: I know if soael>ody co.ea to ay house ju.st like you, and you tell W.. to get out. l f he don't get out, you ' ro going to get •~thin.g to put him out. And th@t'• cX4ctly what they were going to do. 'Ibey were going to m.tke them volk--valk out of t here. K: Yeah. D: ____' i3=_i~.J-- ---- a lot of, uh, funny thin.gt happened , but uh, I st.ill uy that ub, l knov that uh, King went to that school. I know that Dr. Young vent to that school . And uh, uh, vhat is that guy's name from Savannah? There vas t r ouble every time I aav M.rt. K: Abernathy? D: No, , w11.s11 +-... Abernathy we~-----~ U: No. K: • U: K: D: Mo. No, uh-H,,. S e<; It wa s~ Willi .... f1".SC R It was ~ Willia••· Ho.te"- Ic was ~ Williama. those people left here And I'm going to tell you something else. When nnd they went to AJo.biuian, 1foJett Willi~u:ds v:.ts arrested in a 8tolcn car and he had car 's keye to eight other $tolen cars in h.is pocket. K: ll:m:D . '• SJ lAB Br:idges Page 57 D: And he was arrested between Savonnah and uh, Atlanta. And he told them that Mortin Luther King had the other eight sets of keys . K: 8-. End of Side 2-T•pe A On page 56 cwo c~ent• vtit• aade by •n unknovn speak.er. The "U" indicat.es this . •. SJ lAB Bridges Page S8 Sida 1-Tape B K: Where what wo missed on that tape was I believe you wera celliog me that Hoss--you didt\'t think Uoo• w3s a Klansman. D: No, I don't think he vaa a ll.ansa.an bec•uae i t cost $10.00. And he-ub, another r eaeon I don't, uh, think he wa1, but I do believe this. 1 believe thot the, uh, group$ of Klan&men or whether they were Klno&men or not. came co Sc. Augu1tine they l ooked co Xenusto for. leadership and for locat i on. K: So when they came in thoy would kind of turn themselves over to Uoaa and Hoss \.;ould then direct them. D: Yeah. K: They "°uld~ 0: But by tho some token, I ncver--all the t ime, uh, that Hoss was in this thing , did I ever hear hia aoy anything that, uh, would 11ean the death ot somebOdy. K: Uh huh, O: Because ho--h,,1 aae.1£ :is not • violent por.on , yOUc know. And uh, ao he'd te.11 anybody I don't be.l1evc in killtna aDybod~ I think •e ought to I ."J keep them here. We ought to beat the.tn up her~'jfd ha had everything lined up on the march and-- K: Ub hub. D: Of course, uh. anytime the blacks vould ace 3 group, that vas where t hey would go. They wouldn't, uh, they wouldn't bypass the group. Thciy wouldn't valk around thcc:a on the str eet or a nything . They'd valk over' then. K: Right. through them,· huh? SJ )A8 Page 59 Bridge.a Kt Well, again I, you know. l hovo to t r y to verify vhat l rMd in the paper. D: Yeah. K: I voo rcading--yCtlh , in fact that's the article I .vns ju$ t go1n.g toa a.sk about. The Alligator-ie that froo tM Alllsatort Is th.la the one from the Alligator? D: Yeah. K: And in hew:e I l>olleve they ••id, uh. Yeah, in this article I. believe they eaid that, uh, you know, that you wcre--that II I/ you had-you hod to , uh, keep peopl e in what were called sv~ot boxes- - D: Yeah! X: Aod in the Outside pens. Cen you tell mo about that? D: Yeah, ve had the , uh, the~there were nine flights c~mc over with a prof easor f roa Cainesville. K: Y .. h. D: And uh, they were, naturall y they didn't belong to the colored , uh, the N~--they ~-ere ao.ething e.lee, they uid. lut they ca• ove.r for sympathy. And ul1, eo uh, tho professor had eight-aeven-- there were eight of them. Yeah. K: Uh huh. ;:;::t \ D: And uh, they turnod themselveo in. They insist~d on going to jnil. And. 0.. ~ sympathy f\\Ol/4- Well, we got them out the.re, and ve, put theo up 1n the vhlte cell upstairs. K: Yeah. D: .Whero we had thrc6 or four other vhite prieoners and the colored vere next door. And uh, &o-gee, about 3:00 in the t!)Oraiog they all 1tarted beatin3 on the valla nt one time and curolng and rateing devil. And so I v ent up ond there vere. two local boys that vas in jail up there. And "· •, SJ lAB Bridges Page 60 D: they vere the one1 cccating the-- k: The altercation? D: The disturbance. K: Uh huh. D: They couldn't got to the blacks ~nd tho black• couldn't get to them, but they'd beat on the walls and cuss them for this and that. And the,n the blacks vould beat on the walls-ju.st keeping peopl.e avake, you know. K: Uh huh. D: And uh, so 1 ordordd them out. I said let'• go. I got a place for you two boys. I' 11 put y' oil in the sweat box. And At that time it vne n. legal deal. lt wo.1 t\ cull box that I think thoy were made for four or five people at the most. K: Yeah. D: No beds id ther~juat bare floor. And uh, 10 they cam.e out and vh,e,n they did . vell the: profc•sor gets up and put• hie 1hlrt on. And he ~id okay 11 ti ii II boys let's go. l aaid where y'all going. Ue sald ve'rc gonna-if they're gonna b~ locked up, we're gonna be locked up. I/ K.: And the 9rofceoor and hio boys weren't t he onee that were raising tho liltink? D: No. 13: It vas ju.st the tvo locals:. II No. Buh uh. I aa ld vhy do you want to go over there to the sweat boxt ,, " but Have you ever been in one? Re said no./ve'rc going. If they go, ve'll D: fl ,, II go. 1 said all right. Be oy guest. so I took them over there and put them in the sweat box and left them there 'til the ncl(.t morntrtg. They left town the next dny. K; Yeah. Did you--did you have to--d~d you use that event box much during these. uh-- D: No. I'd say thot vaa the only t:loe ve u.sed it. ,_ SJ lAB Pago 61 Br idges K: Yeah. What about--whnt about the, uh. pen outside the uh--1 read a report where, uh , you know, you vel'e-you had to , you know, put people out there during th• for 1 don't knOW" vhat reason. J): Well, the---the--you take, uh, twenty-five or thirty people in one coll block-K: Uh huh. D: And uh, that uh--·you have to clean that place out every day. Another thing, they vere cosplainiag abo1.1t not getting any exerc.is:e . Veil, the fence ie etW out th4tre. They atill use it for exercise, and uh_, so ve, uh, put tbea out there. And, of course, I was sorry a.s the devil. We'd leave the:a out there for, •ay, tvo or three hours, and then take another group out and le.ave thea in it. But uh, the uh, black vcmen and uh, black men was uh, kind of disgusting because I Md whit.e peopl.e working at tha ja1l--vh1te jailOr woman. And uh. they put on l ittle sex shove out there. So we finally had to quit. We couldn't put the acn out there ot tho aaoe ti.1ne vith the women. K: H::lmn. D: accnue• it wao, you know, it was filthy so ve &topped 1t. The uh, and then , uh, they really raised a ruckuo . They vere--because they wasn't gcttin.g anough axcrciso, you know. So we'd send thc111 out in groups of fifteen or twenty and let them trot around the thing for fifteen or twenty cainutca and then co11W1; back in. K: llov 11.1ny cell blocka were in the jail? D: Oh . K: Arc in the ja11T D: Well, let'• aee. Ve had, ub. rooa for eighty. X: Eighty prieonore altogether? D: Yuh. ·.. SJ lAI Page 62 Bridge• K: And wa..~ thnt the iaaxiaum .:iaount you kept in you jail during these ti.es or vould you jutt ove.rflov1 D: No, uh, Some nights wc 1d. uh, before we could proceao them, we h4d one ving that we used for juvenilc1-vhite girl1 and vh.lte. boys. There weren't, uh, l think there's about six or eight bunk.a in t he big cell block. K: Uh huh. D: And then on the othBr aide, where we kept the juvc.nilco separated-- the girls from the boya--were two big cell• vitb four bunks in each one. K: Yooh. D: So when ve'd have an overflov, vc'd, uh, take the juveniles and t.ake them. to their parents and tell them to brlng them back. And then we'd move them up in the big area place, but th6y had no place to • l~ep except on the floor so-:- K: Uh huh . D: We didn't have bed facilities for chm. K: Did you h3v4 a p3ddod cell o~t there? D: Yeah, I hnd two of them. X: Yeah. D: Creach padded cells. They wera for t he, uh, insane-- IC: Uh huh. D: And uh- K: Oid•-would you use those for vhcn there vt11--vhen it overflowed? D: Uh, used theta the nt.gbt we had the &\<:eat box inci.dcmt. X: Yeah. D: Couse the VOCLtn al.l 1t•rted raietng hell--they~ K: Put the \IOCMln in the poddod cell.a'? D: 'l'enh. 'l'cah. Let those-- .. , SJ lAB Pogo 63 Bridge(l K: And that 's the only time you had to use those sweat boxes? D: Yeah. We left them, uh, we left them in there l'd say a ful.l hour. K: Uh huh. D: Because there' s no place to stand-- ! mean nothing you can do in a padded cell except walk around and around the loop, you know. K: M:!mun. D: Well, if, you t.ake, uh, ten or fifteen people jammed in one of those pl~ces and uh, it t akes just bbout an hour for everything to quiet right down. K: So you left them in about an hour and-D: And brought them out . D: And brought them back out. Sounds like they-did all right. Uh, oh yenh, another newspaper, uh, they were talking about how several times, uh , the state police ~'<>uld arrest somebody and turn them over to you on--whereupon you ~-ould, you know, release them for, uh, you know, as littl.e-- wit h, uh, you know, no bail or just, you know, let thezi go or something and, uh, it would--did this happen much? I don't know if this- D: Yes, it happened often. K: Uh huh. O: The uh, sometimes they would, uh , bring, uh, five or six blacks in. K: Uh huh. D: And uh, the uh, bondsman ~ould come, you knOw, write the bonds. If you couldn't get 1n touch with them, I'd always call up, uh, an influent13l bl-Ock and tell him I had five down there and 1 want, him to come to the court houGe the next QOrning and post bond. And finally they got a black bondsaan here . K: Uh huh. ·.., SJ lAU Bi-tdges Pogo 64 0: And I'd cal.l h.ia or the st•te wou1d cith• r call hiD and he'd say, p vell, if l can't cake it tonight, Y°"' turn them loose and tell t,b, ea to aeet .e at t.be courthouse to.orrov and 1' ll post thctr bond.$. And-- vhich he vould . X: Yeah. D: So ~e've worked the $aoe process-- K: Wlth the whites? D: With the whitcc. K: Uh, ia uh-- 0: We never lost any of th~. X: Uh huh. D: And ju1t like l "3$ telling you, the two Ku Jelux taanners that I arre1ted out at the: rally, they both vent to the county jail and turned t ,heuelvea 1.o :aod posted bond. K: Uh huh. Yeah. D: Both of the:n. I mean--vi.thout a deputy or anytbi:rg. had K: What About , uh, I re3d 3bout one fellow tha.c- -who/burned a stotc otficer with a:id? Uh, do you rccoll thnt incident? And appi:irencly found out)somebody got mad at you for apparently using this procedure. D: Uh uh. K: Do you recal 1 th.at or is it tt'uct D: l remember a st#te officer getting his finger bt'oXeo. t: Yeah. D: X: Up 1n the park, but uh-That' a not the answer~ ' D: No, uh, thoy never bad acid. They called it Highlife. It's a--stuff you acooch on when a dog or something when he's molesting you. K: llighl1£c? Oh, kind of like tn..1CC7 D: Ye.oh. Similar. Only thing it vas .. -it would burn--oil of mustard, that 'e •., SJ lAB Pase 65 D: what it wat. K: 011 of mustotd? D: Oil of cu•tard, yeah. K: Oh. I •ce. What about one tioe that they aaid that a-- some vhite was drivina in and they had a--and the state police stopped him and they i)od 4 loaded ohotgun. five 104dcd pietols. and I think they a.aid they had five buahele of awnitlon or aooiething like t ,hat. Acd t ,bey turned the.a all over to you and the.y a.aid-the paper "1d. that you released tbea and, you knov~ gave hill hie gun aod stuff back.- D: No, I-when thie--1 e&1:1e out there and the.y didn't Nve any charges against the people. K: Uh huh. D: And uh, none of the weapons were loaded and uh , they took them at the jail--the county jail--thcy took the five guns, I think i t va.s. And they ware all in the trunk. lC: Yeah. D: They took t ho vcapon1 from them. K: Yeah. D: And uh, told t hm t hot when they got r eady t o lt!Ave Sc. Augustine: t o come by and pick thei~ weapons up. K: Uh huh. D: And not to c0tne back to St. Auguetine again with weapons i n the car or oo thoir pereon. K: Yeah. And the anunition, y'all kept that, too? D: K: D: K: D: We didn't hnve Any asaunttion. Oh, they didn't h&ve any amunition? Not vtMtn th•y got to ua. Oh. --- - --- ---- ·.. , i~~ SJ 1All 'Bridges Page 66 K: I see. .. D: There wasn't- K: So you just got the guns. D: Just got the weapons. No amuniti on. There va1n ' t any i n t he car. K: On May 29th then Moyor Shows--l>r. Shows. D: Yeah. K: Did the:y--did like he--he put you in charge or ail the police in the aru? The atote, local. and the. uh, acd the county? And thco,. I don't knov, thie 1a gettiog close to the heigth of the oa.rchee and so you called upon, uh. let's •ec, very speclfic sroups and local citizens and buainee~es for the special deputy, uh , forces? D: Ye:i.h, ve had Rotorinna, Kiwaniaos, J~ycecs, ve had--we vere desperate. K: Everybody. Did-..ould-- n: And you know, uh, the guys that were strictly e&inst the earch that didn't vant to uk.e part in it,. they, you know. they we.re disgustin8 __. ..J~.1. .. )'OU up ?"'~.S_ _- -th1:11y--every one of them vould call I a:o-d say look, don't count on me, J'D not goin& to protect those people. ,. K: Uh huh. D: I 'm not going to ptotect them . nod 1 don ' t intend to. I said okay. that's all right, but I've got to boave 1-0IM help somewhere. K: Yeah. D: And socetiaea th•y'd aay all right Elwood, just for you 1'11-""Ve'll eo=e back and help you. 1(: What about , uh, vhnt About in r eports like, uh, what Sinpson brought out that they 'd .... aomo of t he boys from d1c ~ncient ¢.s.cy f&unt1n3 ~lub tvrned up on thooo lioto--vas, uh--did you know that, uh, t hat they O: We1l,. uh,. l vu over there that day. Th4:y had• uh, Henusie give a liet. ·. SJ lAB Page 67 K: Uh huh. D: And uh, he didn't have list of those hunting club members so the judgu gave him a day to get it s<>_.,or an hour to set) so he got a St Augustine directory . K: Yeah. D: Telephone directory and he vent down nnd Wl;'Otc about 100 names. Well, the funny part of it "'3S, t\o'O of the U.S. M.arsha.lls--two of t he men '-'Orking in the U.S Marshall's office had been down to his place-- his " hunting cam~ he called it. K: Yeah . D: Out w¢St and northwest of town and uh. had hunted deer there. So uh, I mean~and, and uh , of course. 1 didn ' t uh--he asked me if 1 belonged to it, and I told him no that I--that wa$ a deer hunting camp. K: Yeah. D: Aod t hunt bixds. I'm strictly a quail hunter . K: Yeah. D: Then uh, I said I know vhere the camp was . I could find it . I could go to it, but as far os ever belonging- - K: Belonging. D: l didn't belong. K: .Well, was--I wos talking in terms of your. uh, your special deputies . Uh, did- D: Well, a lot of them belong to that hunting camp. K: Ye.ah? D: Ye.ah, they, uh, sec. they get-- K: And they were willing to protect the blacks? D: Oh yeah . See, uh, the way these-- this hunting camp thing--like. they get one man who'll go--We've got several organizations here in St. · ... J SJ lAB Bridges P•gc 68 D: Augustine and I guess you have them in Cainesville, too , but this one m.an will go like to, uh, Cumber Lumber Company and say he had a tract of land out there so many miles long and so many miles vide. K: Uh huh. D: He'll go to him ilnd say I go t forty members that• uh, want to hunt this tract of land. And in retu.rn we will patrol it and keep people fro~ burning your titnbcr . K: Yeah. D: And uh-- K: So t hat's what Hoss and the boys did? D: Yeah. They--I think there vas about thirty-five or forty of them belong to it out there. K: Uh huh. And, well, I noticed that Simpson, uh, like, you know, literal ly accused, uh, the Ancient C1ty \~nting 'lub of being, uh, you know. part of the Klan. D: Yeah. K: Do you think that was true? D: No. K: No? D: No. They ~as just a bunch of old crugbt holy aack.e.rel, we'll never gee of thia one. So uh, the lieute.a.ant and the. capta.J.n and the. b1gbway patrol, tt>.ey sa1d • uh., ve' ll va.it for you guys: up a.t t:be. offl.ce. And they turned around ud we.nt up back up to the police station. They v11n't about to get irtvolvcd in that. K: Thia vas- thie incident occui:-red after thc-thnt t11cy-tl\B.t Btyant. put that major in charge? D: Ye.ah, 1-t smoothed dovn after tvo or three we.eke. It: Yeah. D: And see. tbey--.and th• ni.sht they had the bad t-roubl& th.ere, there. ve:ce. four of Uve highway potrolloen got into a bad spot. And 1:t was right on c.,,.-J.o ~e.. the. corner of Gt'tdoTa and King. And uh. so they yelled for me and t rushed down thcrQ and t: 'WCt 1n a_nd th.csa guys vere all standing back to Dack.. And uh, so- ~ Vere they surrounded by vUd vMtes? D: Yuh. all WJ.t ... .. SJ lAB Bridges !'age. 74 K: Un hull. n : Must have been twenty-fi.ve or thirty of them. K: 'R'ere they young toughs? D: Ye.."th. tough as hell. And uh, one of the high"1ay patri>lmen had come back with his stick to hit tllis guy and the guy behin$ him, a .-.h1.te boy, grabbe.d and jcrkod him flat on bis back. Then he turned him ro:ound and ,. ti he says here m.1.ster, you dropped your stick.. Well, that give them some.thing to, you know, a little relief--somebody-so they all started I• I I II laughing. gey, you dropped your stick. Hey copper, and stuff like that. \I And uh, so I got there and r sai.d, 'uh, listen you guys. I s::iid I'm going 11 ,, to get you out of there. He S3.id no, w 're going t~ get out of the:ce. (I ,, l(e.'re going to shoot our way out. I' satd. it's no use shoot ing theae . \1 (I •• II i:fds:;. r satd forget tt. Come on, let's go. I'll get you out of he.:re. So t tu.med at:ound and I said "a ll right, I'• coming right through there and these guys nrc cominS through there. The first one raises a hand to any of the.= or throws a rock.. If 1 know who you are you 're going to 11 go out there and make some little ones out of big ones. And Wen I got them. out, this old big tall guy 00 looked .a.t mo and said 'i!ot damn I 'm ll If 11 one of the five and he sa.id t sure apprecicte it. I thank you. He said \ f 11 l I 11 how in the world did we get in that spot? I said I don't know. They had just got ccparated from-in other "WOrds, one of them had run at one of these. white kids, and- -which got him in the crowd. And then his buddies wanted to help him and the. first thing they know- K: They got surrounded. D: Yeah, they--there are. a vhole bunch of them, you know, just set a trap ' for them and they .fell .in. K: Thcs~ ~rtl mostly local white yo1.1ths? D: Yeah, uh huh. It was a-- K: Maybe Hosses sons and that kind of boys? •,, ' SJ l.All Bri.dges ~•sa. 75. D: Yeah. Now, Hoss, uh, most of these kids, of course, are just kids growing up around town. K: Yeah, right. D: You know. It wasn't a- K: Not tt l0.3:n conspiracy or- D: No, they weren't bad kids. rt vas just the idea that , ub, they'd found some.thing they could have a lot 0( fun in. K: Uh huh. D: And uh, not get hurt themselves. But uh, t he uh, highway patrol and I didn't-we didn't- that night, tho~h, 4.tter tMt, the uh-we got on pretty good terms 'cause that-1.t, the whole thtng: vas that , uh, that the.)", ? don't knoW' vhy, but they thought they could co=c here. and uh, ·. just, uh, beat these kids down. lfell, we got-they-1"'e didn't take our dogs out anymore. K: Wb.e:n di.d you stop doing that? D: We.J.l , they t ook cf\Grge. K: Oh, vheo. the major took charge they quit using dog.s? D: Ye.ab. We didn't send any dogs down. lie didn't ecce.pt any Of our deputies or-for about throe or four-five nights. Then all of a sudden, be knows be needs us, you know. K: Yeah. D: He can' t --he can't-you can't do ~nythio.g with a bunch of kids. You can't K: D: shoot them. You can't hurt them. And those darn little devils are just like rubber balls. They'd-they'd bounce them a.round. They'dAll~'. o f sudden then your i:elntions rlth",f:be state ve.re fairly ami.ableOh ~ 1.1.e.J: . et'" ic •. l:: la.. 0 • ' I K: J3:ut did this a...Dr-f' r""i sr with he federal government, and uh, Judgo. .... Simpson, uh, how \.'Ou.ld you a$sess his rolo ~he: whole m4tter? ·. ., ., SJ lAll Bridges ~.g .. 76 D: I think that Judge Simpson was promised a re..U. nice promotion which he got just a few months after that. He vent to the htth Gurt of .4,peals in New Orleans. K: Who do you think promised him? D: The federal gove.rnnent. Becau$e he couldn't possibly have changed that much in &.ts attitude in tvo days. K: Uh huh. D: Re kne.v people in St. Augustine. He knew a lot of them that were sitting 1n the courtroom. And he allowed the blacks to do t"tnythiog they wanted 1n that courtroom including put tbei:r feet on the desk and go sound asleep in that courtroom-the blacks could. And :the whites couldn't breathe. They couldn't do a thing. And if oae of them stood up or vent to the reetroOD> there was always two or t hree b4cks to run there and get in t heir seats. And he upheld them each and every time. IC: Uh huh. D: He send the bailJ.ff dow, and he'd go down and he'd ball the Wile people out for-- Ji:: Trying to- D: And Judge Simpson knw all of those people. I mean. you knov. he comes-he use.cl to cooe to St. Augustine a lot. K: Wall, t.alking about. you Jal.ow, hj.s showing this favoritism, I read that, you know, in several newspaper articles where youJ~ Tr\"fa.c.-~ a favorite quote, and aloost anybody writing nbout it is where, ub, those two Klan rabblerous:ers, .J. B. Stoner and Conrad Lynch. D: Yeah. K: And when, uh, vhen Ro3s-- thcy 'd--vould always be seen b.anting a.round your office.. They, uh, you know,. they' d--is this true? Uh, you know, I read Lt in several pl-0ces. SJ l.AJl,. ~age 77 Bridges D: Well, I think, uh, Lynch and uh, both- I think both of them were in the office, uh, two ear nings in a row. K: Uh huh. D: 1 Uh, and i t vae about the Klan rally. They wanted to know if they could, uh, put out circul ars around tha park.. And uh- K: They advertised, ~uh, around th.at night. D: Advert i$e the rally. And uh, I called the uh, the city for them, and uh, the-they came back the next morning and, and uh, the. office was full of people. And they trust ha.ve. stayed ten or fi.ftcen minutes De.cause they wanted to sQe, uh, Judge Mathis and bis office was packed, too, of couYse. And uh, they uh, but uh, Hoss, that son, be~it didn't make any difference where. you were. K.: Be was around- D: Old Boes 'd sbw up all day--time. of the day or ~iglit. And the nt.ght that, ul\, Marti.n Luther King was out there in jail, there mu.st ha'Vc been fifty whites and fifty blacks circulating around that jail. K: Uh hub. I>: All night long. K: l!mD. ·D: Up and down c·bc streets nnd-- K: Those-I believe two nights, the uh, the Klan staged their counter--ca.rche.e 4.nd they- they m.'lrched inthe black section. Was it-was-? D: Oo.e ti=e. t. uhK: One time.? D: Yeah. They, uh, came and asked me t.o march with them, ·and I told tQ,em I would. I'd been-they put it to me re.al strong. they said you' ve been marcb.tng with the blocks now you can march vith the whites. K: Uh huh. '·•. SJ 1J\B Bridges l(aga 78 D: Th.at ' s perfectly okay. So I cal1ed down and I got five blacks that bad been march.il'lg continuously-all xoung blacks. They'd been marching continouSlly every night, and uh, 1 told them I wonted five of them to march vi.th us. K: Yeah. D: And I took those. five blacks and put them right at the head of the 11.st u:ith me. and we marched all the v~y through black. .COYn- 311 through the. bar ce.ctiono and down in Libcrio., and we c4.me back up to the park. K: So you were-you were pretty much. along that- tbose marches just for the secur·ity aspect or th4: whol e t hing? D: Well, uh, they uh, aee, you kcow, the blacks bad . a lot of confldcncc in J11.e-the local blacks. K: Uh bun. D: Th~y. bad as much confidence in me. as they did in anyone. K: Uli huh. D: 'cause t hey knev that t wa.an' t going to let t hem be in;jured if I could pooo:lbly help :Le. K: Yaoh. D: But uh, they, uh, gee I-i.t was touch and go sometimes 'cause, you know, some- one night there a taxi driver of all people-he almost tomed a war in up there. Re bails out and bails on- jucrps on a little fellow. and a black fe.llow that was walking right alongside of me. And uh, he was a little old skinny dried-up taxi driver. And uh, \O"hy he bailed on this bl ack, I don't know . I've forgotten his name.. Anyway, he uh, when he junped on him, we.ll I tried to push him avay. I said, Wil1y get avay from here now. When I. did, the black grabbed him, picked him up, and instead of staying in that line where we could pt:otect him, he gets him Ou the sidewalk where there's about fifteen or twanty whit~s . ···~ SJ lA.S Page 79 D: lfe started beating the. t4r out of this Utt.lo old vh.lte fellow. It: Yeah. D: And uh, of course, they ki.cked hilll around pretty bad. K: They all jumped him. Uh huh. »: · I sot him out of the tht.Dg-jam, and got h1D back in line, got hint down to the Lincolnvil.l• oroa. But uh, actu.a.lly, tho uh, the thing was so out of balance that., uh, 1t. was, uh, vasn't cvcm-l mean the way the thing was vr1tton up, you vould think that, uh, tho vh.ite people vero ju.st be.a.ting the.se people. to death. K: That's the •'BY it c01111 through-reading the a.cvepepera. D: And ye.ah. And uh, thoro wasn't anybody-I sue11 ae tDOny as the newspaper photographers. Ono time-one thing that made thtl'.l'I sore, they got tvo or three. l ocal guye and the:y go oa. the beach. they go ove.r there v::lth •beets - - JC,: t 88.V" tbat picture.. D: And pose as the Ku IJ.ux Q.a:n. Well, boy the llatt, they bunting tbe guye that took the picturoo. K: loah. D: And uh, they alao hunting th.B guys that poeed for tho pictures. JC: those weren't really O.On•en? D: No. So, you knov, I au:n anything to crute a - JC: And ·so you would ••1 • generally, the vbitu wvo not as violut as they-- it #ppears to be or that- D: No, they wasn't . It.:wftan't that typ~ of violo.nco. It was aK: More of a pueh- 0: Push and pull stuff, yeoh. K: Uh, so you would aay, in terms of your s~urity aeAsurea between, ··.uh, the black marches and the vh.ite marches you ~uld take pretty auch the same "· SJ J.Aa Bri.dge..s Pag• 80 K: aort of security procoud.ons over any-thing :l1's..t" you had to do for say t-he blacks. and th• vbite) 1C#U&e appare.11t17 \.then the vhites care:bed the blacks would aing to them o-r somethtn.g. D: Oh yeah. They did them the same vay that the whites did them. K: How do you me.a.a.? D: They sang to them, Md cura.ed them you vtdte ao and such, and curse the wb:.tte.s just lib tho vhitea cut:sed t 'bect--all the vay down .. r.: Really. D: And t .hen the blacb that. I had m.rching at the. head of the. line, they'd cal.l thell white mother AllA /\Ny..M}. loveto •nd everything. They I cussed them for everything they could thi.nk of bccnuoe thCY. vere marching vith the vbitcs. So octually, it~bn-vc didn't Mve one bit of troufil.e. vi.th that whit• mArch until we got vay back down on Central AVenuo. and uh, a bunch of the buck.s bad gottet1 be!W>! this old housa over thez1e and th•y hid a bunch of rocks. And tbe:y bt'ick.ed us pretty good. IC1 Uh bub.. D: And uh, the-one thing-the reason I think that it v ae k:Lnd of f;et up that way is because tho, uh, five guys I had marching with us, the. five blacks, when tboee. rocke started coaing, thay took off. IC: Yeah. D: I don't know wht.tb&r they thoug~ that the vhitea were. throwing rocb at then or not, you 1c.:aov. 1(: Yeah. D: But uh, they took off, nnd the next time I talked to ft couple of the:n they oaid that tho rcoeoo thoy rnn, they thought it \4118 vhi.te boys rock.ins-thro" 1.ng rockG at them. 'They •aid but they found out it vas the blacks roc1d4g the vb.ice. line. ... SJ lAll Brf:dges Page. Sl. K: Oh yeah. Was-I-you know, what I read of those, uh, those white marches was that the blacks were real peaceful and stuff when the whites marched through and tho,y, you know, sans: songs. I, you know. we. lov~ e.verybody, and did- D: Well, we ooly ran into . Yeah, they loved to sing that to the Wite oarcl'tes. We love you and everything . Oh they'~ give them a fit. But one pl ace iet in the old bar down there, The Blue Coose Bar. And uh, there must have been thirty- five big old bucks down there. And they resented the fact of t hose guys marching down there. K: Yeah. ' D: And ot course, they l."l'tew a lot of the white men. IC: Tllat were actually marching? D: Yeah. K: Was tb.is- vere there a lot of lO.anS111en in this march per se or moatly the- D: TMs9- vel1 these, uh, if r remember correctly, I think they vc:re all locals except ma!fbe ten or fifteen or twenty. K: Yeah. D: They had a good peaceful group. They dd real well-just a- X: So anyvny the.cc black boys at the Blue Cooae Bar- D! Yeah t hey--they were kind of-- K: What? They'd razz: the-in or- D: No, they came out and said 'w' hy don't you come. on in and h.a:ve a drink, ,, \\ brother? And you won't drink. with us now, wi.11 you brother? I've had /)<. many/\ dr·i.nk. vi.th you o l d ti boy . And they'd rag the heck out of them, you know, all the way around. TheTe was three or four di:unks that got kind of abusi.ve and I told them-a coupl,e of blacks, I said take those guys in thei-e before we have so~e trouble. l said I got--I said there's too •., SJ l.A)I Page. B(banks' left. They all went down in the state some.where down around Cococ:\.. The vhole:-all of the Ting leaders left town . And when they-on both side.s-and when t hey le.ft town, cveTything went right back to nonnal. K: Wh.en- didn' t thty have a little problem integrating the motels there foT SJ lAB Paga 87 K: while after the, uh, aft er t 'he act pa.tuleJ, uh, there vars · a little problem with intilllidati on. D: Well, there were, uh, I don't think anyo.ne wa.s eve.r actually refused, I bu~ I d id hear that there vero quite a fw prices raised to $50. 00 a day and stuff like that. 'When the black.a caae in. K: Uh huh. D: But uh, the-I think the biggest thin& 1n that whole. thinB was the, uh, the blacks and vhites- -white girl s-marching vith the bl.4.ck boys and the black boys marching with the white girls and that's w~ .... K.: That's vb.at really ril.00 thing's up', huh? D: And that kept this town so upset and oh, it was, uh, they just couldn't believe it. T?-ey couldn't believe any white person vould be that crum;my, you knov. K: Uh hub. D: And uh, of course, they would do anything to make them notice it. They'd hole! hands and they'd kiss and it was just-it was just pi<:k pi.ck pick. They-and the-then when the highway pat.rol got- they would, uh, march all the cars for weapons- K: Yeah. D: And uh, one night thi~ guy--he must have "''Cighed every bit of llS or 120 pounds-came to me and he said, uh, he had some-I had $1.00 And . sixty cents-worth of pennies in a roll. And he said that highway patrolma.n took it avay from him. K: Ye
St. Johns County Sheriff's Office -- Ancient City Gun Club -- Ancient City Hunting Club -- Flagler Hospital -- Florida Highway Patrol -- National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) -- Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC) -- Special Police Force -- St. Johns County School District -- St. Johns County Sheriff's Office -- Florida Times Union -- The Alligator -- Daytona Beach, Fl. -- Lake City, Fl. -- Monson Motor Lodge -- Ocala, Fl. -- Old Slave Market -- Ponce de Leon Hotel -- Tallahassee, Fl. -- Starke, Fl. -- Bunnell, Fl. -- Arrest of Mary Peabody -- Integration of Monson Pool -- Bombing -- Civil Rights Act of 1964 -- Civil Rights March -- Civil Rights Rally -- Clash Between civil rights Workers and Segregationists -- Klan Assault on Robert Hayling -- Klan March -- Klan Rally -- Murray High Walk Out -- Night March -- Picketing -- Police Brutality -- Shooting Death of William Kinard -- Sit-in -- St. Augustine Quadricentennial Celebration -- Use of Cattle Prods -- Use of Police Dogs -- Wade-in
Metadata URL:: http://civilrights.flagler.edu/cdm/ref/collection/p15415coll1/id/1049
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Extent:: 89 pages
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