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Joseph Shelley : Transcribed Interview

Collection:: Civil Rights Library of St. Augustine
Title:: Joseph Shelley : Transcribed Interview
Creator:: Shelley, Joseph, 1915-2007
Colburn, David
Contributor to Resource:: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, University of Florida
Date of Original:: 1977-09-06
Subject:: Civil rights--United States--Florida
People:: Shelley, Joseph, 1915-2007
Colburn, David R.
Hayling, Robert Bagner
Young, Andrew, 1932-
King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968
Peabody, Mary E. (Mary Elizabeth), 1891-1981
Peabody, George
Lynch, Connie (Charles Conley), 1912-1972
Stoner, Jesse Benjamin, 1924-2005
Davis, L. O.
Bryant, Farris, 1914-2002
Johnson, Lyndon B. (Lyndon Baines), 1908-1973
Smathers, George A. (George Armistead), 1913-2007
Wolfe, H.E.
Manucy, Holsted, 1919-1995
Brock, James, 1922-2007
Bailey, John, Sr.
O'Neal, Carlton
Blackmer, R.C.
Dart, James
Gutterman, Harry
Simpson, John Milton Bryan, 1903-1987
Kynes, James W., 1928-1988
Kunstler, William A.
Quinn, Charles
Location:: United States, Florida, 28.75054, -82.5001
Medium:: transcripts
Type:: Text
Format:: application/pdf
Description:: Interview with Joseph Shelley, mayor of St. Augustine during the height of the racial crisis in 1964. Begins with a short look into Shelley's early life and then moves onto race relations in St. Augustine. Press relations are mentioned and their accuracy in reporting the conflict. Describes speaking with governor Bryant about the formation of the biracial committee and also the election of the city commission. He also speaks briefly about the demonstrations in the city and the arrival of Martin Luther King, Jr. and Andrew Young.
-c-r-,-Ti; ;;:es ""'fFi1:"i=rl"1g'1, .....,.,o .1...1 e-L""w-o-t+rlJ. r.e.~ e!r"'lfl"i'o'ITu"'I- +.;ft -ve .,, ¥-Obi •·rant to ask me q.ues..U.ons .or:_y.ou Just wa~.., ... ..,.? _ C: Well, I would~i·ke to talk about your background~rrs@eptember & .f means I graduated in~ 1942. S: l'7JJ3,,,,,_ ~el'tembet 138-Which Jackscn?f 4- C4M(I.. rt. -1-eA,."' e ¥'months in combat ret·~iri~ to this country j et fl. vt. (\ "4- , Germany 1 feeF1:1e7 4, and we had to sail out o~'..'.,.. ..,,....._ __ ....._.. _c .. 19~ 0 . "-:. s: . ·•. '.. . . '' \' number ten, We spent the night there on the boat·· ~-----------~----..-......,_ ~, . ... ,, ..... \,' ... ,,,'.",\-\\',',' '< ' h . h . ' ' somet 1ng or ot er'-·-------------------------~-'-'.. '.. . ......- CRSTA 6A pC!ge 3 mjb s: 11arcb HospitC!l, Dr. Lockwood came.over vtsrtrn9' . \ . ......... ~-~--~~~-~~~~~~--- he said, C: What got you involved i·n pol itfcs;'' surgeo~ "· .,_--~---~- --~~~~---..,-~- S: Well, we had a situation on the city commlssfon, There wcis an ciwf u 1 1 ot of."-'' ' , -·+h~l-c~.k_e_r_~~~~~---..,-~----------~~--somuch so~~k~~ C: _. $: Just out of curiosity, who came into"'. " \ \ pOt '[' . ( b~ Caplf!_ . th-·. f<_l!_A_e.t_7'_t!-c/-,-~'1--------- Let 111e ----:F:---po 1 l't tcs· .·wh~ · -~ stcite attorney for the seventh Judi'dal circui1\lj._ l/e ran i'n 1954 and '·' I lost the first election ,,_...tr_11_J_~T-·_. .w... . ..t.1.._ ..$...__ __________ ~----- h.3 Cfi'4 ·" t?.i7"i b .. (//1;~/~fl"Vi1- c-'f~,e; -:he got"" In te rested in po 1 it i cs '• ;[knew I Cdi1~ft. ttCJf bf a tZ.& (,-{, ?:rt:•e. {;;!,. ?01/£1 >ff' a{lr r -ft,..., &/1-. o.1gt. H f f/l~d;. · · · · · ~ · · ·.. . ·. and we had two other men and we were getting ready for our four hundredth anniversary celeorati'o~"--·" "- -- C: Right, S: · go out there and tell the nation ----- CRSTA 6A pqge. 4 roJo ,, ' S: E.lected··. .·. ------- selected oythe mayof',___ ____ srx county commlssio~,. ..·.. . .'. --- w_.. hile .,. was up the re~ Pr. l:faye5) \.-.-------·-·_ . . . . ___________,_ .,_,,....·- '-.-- C: Now, have~ there beeen any proolemsrnen you mo~ed tn-here, ~01:,r you're'''',' '\ \\ d f, \ t) 1vf. ..-, _ have there Eiee.-A-a~~ W·~~, ~{~c.: V !)r-e · (.r()ft:t/t·Ufll 1 "C;j { s: Absolutely not,· f\Jo.u.... c..J(w'{sut>~ert) I would say half of my prac'<:' t!cel'h- 47{ {&st, " ' ' ~ At 1 east oa 1 f my practice is )-k {acf<::!J ·' more than half of them are black, ~I was well known tn the black community..·,,. .._ / • r ',/e've 9ot aho11t like I said, we had the first black pol iceman in Florfda-.'" '', ' ' ' t'~ ..... ? : She 11 ey , Dr. on the extension for you, -~---- (BREAK) S: We have a Dr. Gordon ~--------~-----~-------------.......- very we 11 l t ked, I 1 d say anytime...:. .. \._.- ----------"-·_ . ---------·_ ' , ,_'- .. '\.' '.... .. CRSTA 6A page 5 mjb S: As t sc:iy · W L · · · · · · '· . \. . . '. . .. "" . ', ', ' \ . \. . .. \. ' ' ' C. •. \' . . s: '" . .......----~-------.---~-~-~~----~----------.--~---~----.,_..-- .. un "' 10011-g-, ·~e was Stif- J~._. turned-arot1nd . \.' . . '' '\ Martin Luther King's · · · · f:t//( d frJ. fl).,... 1""'~---"- .. 1<-I"_; _____________ \._~ and 1:6-kl him t:o-c.lea.r~u.t, i'nvf ted him up to see<· .....---~-~-- I was, I I' ·'' t asked him~ ! satd, Nhy are you al 1 comi·ng to St, Augustine?"'--'.·. ... -~------- ' ,,, We're coming here because ~· ..........- --------Birmingham, Alabama-\. ·..·..., '. ._ __. ..,._ _ ,, C; Is ft, is this i:ilso, maybe, was this the------------------- s: have wrltten' \. \. .,........~----------------------~ and I sat and talked to him and I said, ls there anything the city of St, Augustine I, I 1 i ke it in .......------------------------------...._.- -··-----··----------------------------------------- CR.STA 6A page 6 mjb s: Then about two days after ta 1 ked with hi·m he came out and sa rd there had beeh 13 i'n the ctty of St, Augustrn~\' '\.· · ~-~--------------- ....... ..------~-...... --~ pub 1 i c, pub 1 i ci'trwi se the newspapers '--... '------ Now, if you go back before th is happened, rrght after t went in to serve as commi s"' sioner, one of the, l don't remember who it was ----------------- '-.. '\ he wrote his parents that word WCIS out on the campus there"" · ---...----~----..-- '"\"':"":'": =lb It f'1 V'01/(P of students, white studentS'-"\ ""-... -----------.....- -----------~·stir up trouole and we wanted to be prepared for it, '\._\\.' ' '\. \ ~ "-'· -----Vv-~-. ~t-,-t~J _____________ _,,, . ..-----~~-----~---~~ that ti~~~ three~--------------------------"'-''......., "\""'' · C: tlHnk even more mC1ybe, than tnat is residential tntegratron, That 1·s the one thing tlll.f--- S: This town fs more integrated residenti<'llly than any communtty fn the state of '-.. Florrda, t can take you to five different sections-------~-~---·-"-"-"'-\-.\-\.. ......... Broad Street ----------~----------------~~--~-~---~ South Street\'\/.1· liri··· .. \ . ' ' . '· \ .. \ ' CRSTA 6A page 7 mjb s: Central Avenue But, uh,,,. "". . . \ \ . . ' ' '' \ \ \. . ~~-~---~-~-~--~~~-~~~~~~~~~,_....-~,-..-~~ C: You're talking about the, uh ........ ~~--~-------~~-'-,. ~~----~....--~-..--- S: Yes, and he told hfs, he told hfs parents somethln~'' ,,_.....---~---~~~-~--~~ ........ ~ "· ~ ---~-----~---~--~-~~-~~~~---·-~....-.~~- Wel 1, just before the Eas·ter hol idayS'-',· · · · · · · · · fellow came around and ~~----~---~~~ \ 1 ong distance ca 11 from Bos ton, t1ass ,'-- ---~---~~~- -~~--..-~-~-~~~---- t D" ,, " ,, Xou know Mrs. Peabody? And I sai·d/1No, t never heard of her~ '~h ":> .,, He safd, you know ~ who she is? He said we 1·re taping this party- ........ ..-------~--~--~~~----.--~~---~~--- ' \ She 1s the mother of the gove~or of Massachusetts, George Peabody,"~'\·· . \\ \. ._,."" """"--~~ ....... ,......,......., ........ . '\ / '''\ ' ' \_\\\.\ \ '\ ., \,: . . \. \," '....__ \. Did you know she 1s coming down here to cause trouble? t said, what will you do if ./..£ t 4v she comes down here and breaks ~11r leg? And I said, W-el 1, law- is made for everybody--------------------- break tne law.'-..'.-.. ....... J!7_0 _ 11_n_:t-_P_ '__~. .r .. _1 -~:} ~,>;" The next day somebody handed me a paper from Ba 1t hnore. _____~ --..-A~e_tt..,.J~/_/~_l_'_ _ said, "Mayor of St, Augustine Threatens Governor's 'Mother,''' ...·.. ..·. --~--~-'. '.·... ,.·,·.' . ... ·.. .. .... and that was a c1 irnlmt+ remark. We have one set of laws that apply to everybody and if she comes down here and creaks them ~~----~~~~~~~~~~~---~ C: Just out of curiosity, whlle we're on that point, how about evaluating the press coverage of St. Augustine, S: Wel 1, the press, when the thing flrst started, they came down fl.ere and set up headquarters In ,_ ' -..., "''\\_\_ Initially, w~n it ftrst started, I had a lot of mc:dl from all over the country, - --------------------------------------- CRSTA 6A pqge 8 mjb s; C: '- . '\'\. \'. -,_ My ma i' 1 WC'IS- '.,..../_U,. ,.'. .~ _11_·;_~.,..,~ --~--- pu0-1 re op rn t·of1',_· . ' ' '' '' '-' '' ' .. ""'""'' --- ·. ""' the trour:n e came;~:.-·:'· · · -_- · ---~~~--~~~~----~ TV and newspapers ---~---television complete E1nd - - · 100 per cent,\! Tb.e nlnety per cent, ~- . l\ the ninety five per cent of our population 0-el ieve wf\at''s on televt'S'fon 1 or what they read ln newspapers, and they read nothtng else for, to !Jroaden their s-vt-Jut .1 _ . ~''" -- . knowledge of the -system, And ,. -maijed i'n at lea~t 7J rn fqY01'.'< '.. . ,, .. \ .. \ ~ \, . ·. \_\.,' - '' - \.. now I got long dlstance te 1e pnone call 5': ...- _....,....._~--_-_-.'. . ... ·. .· -·---.' ..' --~'.. ..'.. ...'. ._,_-_',.....'. .'. .. .'. . ,,...... ,...· · '\' '--. \• this is how it exp res sect-'. ..·.. .....................- -----·.. .·. . .· _·_·_.. ._-_._.. '_'· ..'. . .'.. . .".. _... '. .. .'.. ,_,_, ......... s t·tm'lt \'0:1 1 ii ~"'. .... .. ...... , ... "'-' "~ ''\'. .. ~'-~ How d~ tl:ie, how dtd· you reacO:i reacl:x·S' · · '· '· · ''' '' '·, ,.,. '.,., ''' · "-'<\ 1 ' ......,.. ................... _...,__ _ _,..~---........ --~ ................ ~.....-..-.-.~--............... --.. how did you become a spotzesman fo J7 tO:.ero? S: Well thfs, thts ts a good potnt, - """-> · II t think tQ:e.whole. thJng i's-- S·et -up' reached out to 11Je., '-..:~;\ · '- ~"-~y · · \,-.. ,.,. ! every nfght when I•\.\.,_''' And they would get up there, and boy-,........ __________- ..,."-:_."..'-\.-: ._.'.:.'-.... ..... ...,... ....... ......,.....-·'\'-..~~>, . ' . \._" "" --..,..----~-~~-~~--~---~~~~~------~-~--------~-.-........ ....,._ ............... '""~' . ~" .. \\ .• , .• .• \< .... {\-. This was ffittch troublesome, We as-ked our state Clttornet>· · · · · · · ·' ,. '· \' '' · '""-"- ' - , to COme Up here and See and J f sten to\, wh,(L +.. h( [_ J1 Cf_ t ,fo ~t ~'-, breaking some law, and he came up here~ listened to us, sat'd,'-.".-.·.. .·.- -........ ....-----\·.· .'.. .. .'..". .... ". ..• .. . ...... ------------they got the freedom of speech, they can go up there. and '\(. . . "-,'-"' say anything they want, you c,:m't do anytnrng aoout ft1. Tll.ls l~'" ,,, · ,. ,. · "-""-- this is Law enforcement officers in th.e dlstrtct·S" ''\·. · \.:~\','-'_'\ . \_\ \ \. ' \ . -----~~~~ ........ .--...-.-. CRSTA 6A page 9 mjb S: Oaytomi i C: The recison t say th.a.t~s remtirka.tHe ts- tft~~~m~~":.~~:: \'~,::\,~,~~~,~,~-:~,X(,·:·,,'.~, ... '<' .....,,,, ······ ......... ..,,...... ................. """""' later crtttcized tbe people,,, S: I know he did. C: ••• for lettrng, lett[ngl.yncft a.nck': ·Srt>~cr······,· people, s: I μ It's, lt's a plain di:imn t te, fte went, fte went to Bos-ton, talked !Jefore q 6'o~>.-ton Unfversity crowd, I bel teve·, and satd that we, the city offtci'als:~\ di'd notbJng to f \.It e;t I/< I ·~IA r iop /P"i " sFop _;t%tf ·Cl td ~vnr~ , We drd c:d 1 we collld -do-eind-Bc se1id, fr,e::I Ir H· o; .. ,, •. t.~ orJ ar,/cetJ "''"' \Vhtt f lv-l C('1U;J ~!) (tt•d l;l ~did. ' ()·· \ _,/ /\ ''You can't touch them~ Then he goes up to 6ciltimore and says we would do notLlng, '" . ""'"'"', ""-" They don 1·t tfl. l nk' . . ' . ' ' ' ' \ \ ' \ \.\.' · ·, \ \\_\ .\ . . ,_ .. ~· q "-' «.:;; ' !I . . ' televtsed, we could tel 1 wtle.re eyerytb..i'ng was goi·ng to l'.lappenJ' Just watch the televisi'on pol lee, pol tee department could tell ~l we could tel?\.""'~~~,·~~~~-~,\~~-<~(:>\ 'I ----~----__, __________ demonstratron~ and a· lot of i't Wf:ls,' was-- arranged, put on People were actually f''Yi//j f 0 I saying whltes ~ loo~ l fl<;.e tn.ey were oeattng blacks up and whJtes wasn\'t~ tt was a terrible lie, C: What, uh, what sort of sb.er1't1f i5'-~"-- . [.. t}.,. S: 1, 0, ,'.s · e..kfl"lrd 't.· · · "-' · ;- Q I . ' . ·" . ' _\ . . "'' - ' . \_ . ., A.itW tt<41S:: ~ .. '.' ., ·,• - .. " .. ,.. . ., ,, '"'::- . \ . ' ' ' • ·- ' ! \ \ ' \ \ l. \ \ "'' • '' " \ \ ,_ ' .. ' ... ~-"' .. ,. '\.'''\\, situation · · L • · 0, Davis had the support of the ~lack community, It's ---~-~~~-~ '', ' had €1 store down tn Wasfll·ngton Street-S''- ~.,.-.~--~~-~~-~~-........ ~-~ ..........-T"" . '.' ,, ' ''. \. . . . \ . \ . . ' \ . ' \ \ "· ', ~ ' \ ' "" " "'"'· '"'"'"·'-" ''\\,\\.'\..,'' -~---~~--~-.----........ ~~~~-..-.~~~~~~-~~..._..-~....-~~.......-..~ CRSTA 6A p(:lge 1Q mjb C: ' .. s; ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '...' . ' ' ' . I .. .. '-'" ' ' \ \ . ,\ .\ ·' ' \ " .\ ,\ ,_ : \ ·" ' . ' . ..... ,. ,.. . '\..'... . ' .. \ ' ' \ .. \ . ' ' . \ \ .... \ ' \ \ \ "\ \, ,\ ,\ ·' ;-.. \ \ \ \ ' ,_ ' ""''""- they televtsed hfm, They,, tf:ley never asl<.ed me or te 1 evi'sed me, They represented peop 1 e :··:' . ti f>' ' );l/1J ' 0\ . . ' . \ . ' ' ' . ' ' \ ' ' . ' ' ' . . "'~. . . .. . . .. . . people~·.· ..-.....,...-.--~--~~~---~~...-.---.....-..................... ,..,,.... .................. ......., ......... ..,.......~ .......... ---- him to the Amertcan '· ' cross sect ton of the .. ' .. \ . ' ... \,.. ' \ '\ \ '•\ ., " ". ' . ·, . "... . C: How about, uh, you to 1 d me that Boston ts~ bow aoout, uh, tb:e press· cover~ge In was it~ will you describe ft as tnaccurate7 . ' . \ ' ' . ' . ' . '. . . S: At least as inaccurate 1 may5e wcrse 1 We only had one, we only hcid one ~1ri'ter . . ' . . . . . _, ... "\ . ' ' '· " . . '\ '· had a prepared statement:/~·~·-·-·-·-·-·-----~·-·. ...· -·-·-·---~~·_._._._._._·_._'·-·-· ....· _·_,_·_·_··-"-"... ..........· lj he came to my house on East;er Sunday morning, t had coffee wHl'l him' I g:;we him tbe ~~ I statement, sat there and talked about t·t for two hot1rs, Wl'len fte wrote the arti'cle, he didn't mention one thi'ng aoout th.rs, He wrote tbe most llicised~\ slarjer/? false \ 'I You know, I thought the press was supposed to quote tfte facts, not 1 not puoltc opinion. C: You know, at that time, ~~~~~~~~~~~~- before the time of the civil of the nation#f, did you, did you feel, as a consequence that you were getting any hearing at all? S: Let me tell you about my personal feelings, and I was very sympathetic ----~~~~--~~~~~~~~~~--~~~~~----~- CRSTA 6A Piil9~ 11. MJB S: and I made up 1llY mind J · · ·w a :.5 · · .. \ \.. -------~-------------you jus1Y_·---------~....----..- \" t thi'nk, C: Can you de.sc.ri!Je ·_ ______a,_ '_'--,.....·h_· ./..L... . l..{. ,_· .· .6.. .... ;. ·. f__· ~t11..,...~-.:.'.t~. _ · _.··---------............. s: one n tght · · · · · · · · · · · · · "-.· -----------------j,-y .,,.,,,,) J., h J v c fir. ((tt, 'wn i te boys'"-. ........ .--------~------~~~ (.I,,'' pol ice station ----------------~ cal led me up'·· ..... ...--~-~--------- two FBt agents ,, they came down from tndiana, they started interviewing these tdds, '-- .·. --~~--- I ,, 11 te 11 you' he Sq rd·'-...... __________ _ l want a hundred years of you white people under my hee 1 l i ke we 1v e been under your hee 1 • '".--'--..:,..;.,',...."."..· ... .- ----------------...- C1nd h.e di:d, Mr;·"- turned to me and he SC!id, Boy,' there i·s~~ ·'- _,......________ ~ ... - . '\'." ' C: So this was 163? s: Th ls was just·. ,._ just thrng started __________________ ~ ~~~ {,. This was right fn, no this was 1'"3. C; Oh, I 1m sorry. 6 S: Right in from 1 ,~3 . \ ' \ \. \ ---------- ---------------------~........_ That wasn't the interesting way, the way people'\'\.. ~-------------~-,......._ '-\.. C: Yeah, s: . ' ..... ' . \' ' ' ·. ' \ . "' CRSTA 6A pqge 12 mjb s: ,_, C: Did you hC1ve much work wtth · '/(}'11~ · ""' ·. · · ~-----------.,+~-~----., '' S: I~ MY~ J,· J rtdf fcu. . . \ ' ,, C: s: ··,, ·, '-. ... '" ... ''"'·''"• Uh, we were talking C!bout, uh what uh, King Eind wt\etner you were meeting or not, '\:· Oh, he, he was coming tn stcite for a dt'!y, rnC1ybe a n igt when l\e took off-."-..''"'"' \ The only time I, t never drd tC!lk to hrm, He never came and talked to me, Never asked to see me, Matter of fact, Andrew Young drdn~t I'\ Pr..11° I s etit fo r ht m. t SC!ld, I want to see the ~'.. ·... •------~~-..,_.,........., 1 f(J S/tt- Ir h C!Sk to see me; Nobody, nobody involved ·_·_1_n_·~l_1ta._....t_·- 'M'-"." "o'-v_l_M_._t_J1_ _. _f_._,_... _ ever asked them to coll'!e fl. rtfr1~ttf,1!;i'".'ractal commi'ttee, ~all Martin Luther King, and do anything he wants you to do; e.;a;-, Cooperate with hi·m so we can get this, gi've Kfng tJ:t:\: i.e--victory-.....-. --·~-·_IJ_.,.....,_t __v,.-_, "I"t,- __jr _ .I' !J-+-r:.-· _ St, Augustlne ~ o /f ca 11 ed me up · ~---------- -~-~---- +h< )t,!J/tj'h+\{fl and Mr, Wt1 Jf told us what it;.~(LlC!r frri~:fl./).J/'f-5> lCfi ~ ca1rlhim and ta1k'Jto him aoout a1J 41 al;r; c4//1l Gt; ... r.f_V"J1~r ---- (arr,· s /3ryo11 -f fr>) P ~fa ,.J A ad ~~11 i' ~ co" ht)1 T v/ I A 14 r J./'ol/ and we discussed and kicked it around ~nd f kicked the oall andrsa id, 11 Mr. ''.t./,; Ir, . ? B ( l 1 f s going to ,, I you've lived here all your life and said, 1Thls Civil Rfghts ,. be signed in the next, _v_l ,,.+_/ ___ week, two, coup 1e of weeks, We knew it was ((JM ;~~1 i,cavsr At Mi v~ . 11 . I said, When tl'i:at happens,· all tl'.lis t·s going Y~M ~ I this, -we~r~ going to douole~cross your Ytrv frlend~ ',., t ~; ! C0f'l\ff'1•r;fv , "'We're going to sell the communi'ty ~'--~~--"-'-~-'-'...._ __ ~--- ~l out to give Ma rt in Luther King the victory so we.. caft.. ? 0 · fo · ---::;:;'~---~--~---~--~... .... t./ t' t .J !,A )I { Jq ' any other communit~- 4$ry see what we dtd in St, Augustlne~! we Cqn do t·t ,.. ,, to be finished,~nd I said, Now you do ,, any place else we want to !Ind that'·s- ....... -----------~----------".....- Another mqn that that m.:in supported, Mr,'·"·"'· tf:lqt~,s tb:e way you 1're ~·-----~~- going to be, CRSTA 6A pa.ge 14 mjb FPYY-: 5 rlght s: tn hls offtce----~--· _. .· -·-·-·-·-·_ . ·_·_·_·_·_· . .· ~·-·_·_· _, .· _· _ 1'.t.e cal 1ed ~fN"Sh Brya,.,i- l' F~rri5 '' '\ · , . ~ up .:ind scitd, ~' he scii'd,"No dotigb. or no d~ce.·.,..·-"-·-·-·~--~~~-.."... .'.'.,.. .,.''-°". \..... - '"'/n l ;t,, L./,tS 0'1 d t Monday afternoon, Tuesdciy nrgl , natronal television came out, sard, · \~~~-~-, Tuesday ntght, na':' c~. ~ ~~;~,., (1-fr: (.. t.ryo~ tional television came out· Governor..PqFFfsrrannounces that 11e has formed a ... ' bi..-raclal committee in St, Augustine, Well, all that group that attended that meeting that nfght were · 119.H.tr · · dtS/U-tJf t C(J//{ J I s-aw a couple of them and in cioout thlrty minutes the)'. were T ~ ~t J.,./lr( '/Podrct:1 house, fvery6ody was all mad~ as a wet hen,~nd t got f5rot19ftt into the city I' : . attorney ov•f ti.._ '(l . a ;rJ hl ~,;J 1 l~ok let's don'-t go off half cocked~ 1 ___________ _... ______ ___,,_/ ~ ' I' WI He said, The governor~---------------- and ~11 ve got to On. ~-_h_t,· findoutwhcit 1sgoi.ng ~1.iJ1,.,. .,·..), _':!;' ,. ' I J I I I k/tJ1·r,., ( ··t"tt(. tlitey-mayor ca1l8.the governor from my office in tl\e morni'n9''( " v ~it A le. ........ ----.------- +.t;; was July 3; /e called the governor up and had IHm on tl'!e phone and!satd, ''Governor b r YO Y1 t , what in the world''s going or}~' '' ----~-~-.......... 6+ 4 v,q~ t; f ,\.;t ' ' something a little fishy (( ' ' \' oar, t' M JI M ~ ~nd he said~ ,, 'l!J' er &yor, if .= . - r) -' you''l 1 promise - ,, that you' 11 never reveal this, 111 l tel 1 you, Of course me being ·a simple 1 ittle idiot~.,.now I'm political ---------------------.... ~ ?h·j ~-·~ I lf!1)"f.J..1''1/!1 _:t.. _ ~._/ _iv_.!_..,..Y__._ti_H_ _1_ 1·1. .... _ _1 .v_1 _r_)__._:f_· _w.__· 'P_n.._I · _'?_"·" _r_' . He ~a i d {'We 1l , t lte t r u th of t t i s ~ I . I I haven't formed a committee in St, Augustrne, I said, Yo-u mecin to tell me, Governor' , and Robbie Andrew was listening In on the extension tn hts office; Ytt said,bYou mean to tell me that you formed no commtttee and~ you told the people of the state of Flori'da that you had formed a committe~1~nd ne sard, //That ts ~' ,, right. said, Do you mean you've 1 i'ed· to all the people In Florida and in the ' ,1 satd/1Now don 1t ·\\ United State"S? ~nd he you start ca 11 t ng me. nqmesw mc:in, scild, ~ ''Look, youire ci lyrng so--cind-so, You sai'd it yourselL You tell.us one thing and you make an announcement on national televisfo1{ §Ind l'.te di'd H to pcidfy CRSTA 6A page 15 mjb s: -------..,; (; tl Senator Smathers and Lyi:idoi::i JgaRSeR., the presl dent and· he hung up tlJe. pl}one in a. ;:~ big fluff. We 11 , t kept my word for a.b~out a year, year and· a !ta 1 f and sa rd, · t ~ ~ . don't know why t should keep my word to a li~r and then t Q'egan to tell people ; o.l. what trank...f-9.e&. He never dfd form a comrnl'ttee and this was orougllt out fn thi's I pamphlet flere, l't was very strange, no commJttee,~nd the next dciy, ThursdC1y, July 4, tne Civi 1 Rights Bf 11 was si·gned tnto law out the announcement had been made that a bi-racial committee had been formed and that was to get Ktng out of here with some kind of a vr ctory · · bt C' t? K'5(1 · -affli he was. i'n .--------------~~ Washington when the president signed the bfll. The minute that happened C: Well, you did have some problem afterward because Monson 1·s restaurant had thrown out, • , , S: Now that is before the Cfvil Rfghts Bfll was signed, That was at the hetght of the demonstration. C: Wasn't, wasn't that, I think t'm right here. I think you~re wrong 1 S: . ,,,,, C: Remember •••• S: th l nk they ' &{ .Pfir rk C;'v1ll/ioJ/111:/I W;tc <).~~ ------------------------------+--·- ,tF C: think they tested. They went around and they tested some of the, some of the Negroes who stayed tested the bi 11 and then Manucy'·s. n 1 S: You may be right, You may be rtght, C: S: C: s: ... picketed, picketed some of the restaurants, You may oe rf ght because I, I, the dates .-----------------~-- Dldn 1t }ast much longer, but ft,,,, It didn't last ct long, uh; tf\ey dtd, Manucy picketed and the re.ason t!\ey dt·d rt, Monson was the headquarters of a 11 the press and the te levts ron,; '}t?J . C/Jd~tl4.~z'~ · and__;j";:..,._; "'--"'.:...:''.,1..Y_. _..:.,if:;_r .;;..O_t.:...lz_·_· -----------~-------..--...... ~ ..... _o_"_c_l1~t.,.\_I_'-._,,,_' I CRSTA 6A p,:ige 16 mjb s: I' () t: ·• · f · I . /) '1'.. . . J 1\' fl~'· f "(i )' .:;. .. . . ' ' . . . . ' . . \ ' ~ ' . ' ' ' " . :the -po i::e r- 0n Here's a statement that t made f~the morntng, July 7, 1963, C: Uh huh, (Jiaf/ir . 1 · S': She 1 ley mak.es .aft statement to dtizens on racfal relt1ttons/rto tl'ie citizens of As ,, / ~ 1, ) St, Augustine. ~the mayor of St, Augustrne ·w-&S re~~'"'./\ 11 v t )") 1t · StttJ 11L1"$.",\ S: "I feel that it is incumbant on me ·h Q «( c ;f J a <0 .. , Io 1 is ten to the radio, reads the papers, or whatever." bl(l -k; doing no th f ng to he 1 p the situation, But of even more importance, there has been a failure 6? · tl1t · /u;tJ/ · !Je//c5 ' to speak out i-n 011 /·h/5· ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~---~~ subject, tn an effort to bui·ld pol itfca] f"t};w I ,. .J l) -G4.o.u.t -an.cl maintain themselves in offlce, pol itlcians have resorted to the old political ·ir-iCX of using minority groups to accomplish ~~~--~~~~~~~~- thetr objectives, In effect, such politicians seek the mtnortty vote by calling the fr\C"-,jcr;+, names. \JV/\/~ ' 'tf you don 1t vote for me, those other people will mtsuse you) Not once have heard of a sfngle /t~)tr dH,v'' or -l.R-tervi.ow. on the nationa 1,.,state level say that our Negro citizens that along with equal rights go equal responstbilittes, ' f rte Ao~ · · o ~ · ......-~~~~~~~~~~~~~~--......- c .5 association Is t.b&t tnal tenable, fnal ienably a part of our Bil 1 of Rfghts as is freedom of speech, freedom of relfgton and pursutt of ltfe~ liberty and happiness" ->, t wrote th i's myse 1f , ......-~~~~~~~_..,~~~~~~~~..,......~~~~--...-- ( /' f would remind our citi'zens that justice demands a fair consideration of the right eyJI c11r fitcr!', (u (/ r. + yt d rt'., of~~n ~e ~the words civil rights and equcllftybave been misused ~ " - - - - - - ------------------------------- - CRSTA 6A pC!ge 17 mjb ) ! ! ) ' i . t ) '( r s: .. a t}l~ t;. t. Q .... u n t if .. ·!·~ '. , . 1 .. · .. law. There ts no such thtng i'n tilts world as two equC!l people, From the moment of otrth, infants show indivrdual differences, Some are pbystcally stronger than others. Some develop more r<:ipfdly, Others snow defects, bot!\ mental and physi:cal, as they age, Some are born witfl naturEtl talen~, God"'.'given tctlent), if you wish, A beautfful voice with which, voices wrtl\ which to slng~ How many Negro boys are Stan Musial at the plate? How many whrte boys are equal to (' How many Einsteins or //d,.,,it-rr/ · ;t·rka vers' are equal to.a Wfllte Mays on a baseball field? the re \/'\/·~...--..........,.~ among us? No, even t n God~ s eyes we a re not eq ua 1 ,. v/Oo , I .r but you have equal opportunities to prove the goodness or 0C1dness~,··o.L7?Jr'.--\ , ? I' " J "' ~o rt vo-f for J lrv Equal employment opportunity has been<.· l}NrD · ltttdf..- /'/? ·. J)J/5 v,,c. ,,, oil dri1.tc.. +1:'0o requal r'1ghts, How q.,tlhltfe y apparently fail to recognize that the key to thls problem is education. The drop-out rate in our public school system ts the ~~~~~~~~-of our education problem and hence, our employment problem' and thrs problem ts not peculiar to the Negro race alone, The drop-out rate t~ ;he white race is entfre.ly too high, tn this day of automation and high tech ... 1 .+ \\~Y nological requirements, 'Ettl uneducated youth, both Negro and whfte, represent a bi:>f.(J;.,? problem and often are unemployable except for common labor, but ~~~~-"-~~~ here again /eltdcr') of both races have fatled to attack this problem ~~-'--~~~~~~~~~ vigorously, Integration of our public schools has not solved this problem_ Witness the publi'c schools tn Washtngton, D. C, t\o It/ They have been fully integrated for many years and are a national disgrace to this ...l)e (; M5f- ) r·s--time far educators in this country · 5 f.J!;y.., \,\,jv_:Ji C to solve ' this prob 1 em and it 1 s st i 11 , , , • C: By the way, hadn't St, Augustine integrated its schools tn 1·63? S: We had the, yeah, the school was integrated and the paroch.tcil scnoof,<~~ ~ was always an integrated school, CRSTA 6A page 18 mjb C: s: C: S: I ·;I tt was done, it was done -voluntari'lyk/~~11\1 I · ·t~'uri~ cor•rcf-, tt was done on a volunatry oasi's~. 1The J ftnest educators in this !I lo ~/e,f-country seem utiaBle to solve this problem, Therefore, I say "Wat: you f'tetve personal responsibility (;,. ·f~e~e.· action9' '\ ; rtl I' I! /'f\ ( (\ 1 t·4 i~f) ------;\-· ____ ..,.....,......,.._,._ 1"he laws are made tn Wash fngton out any i~"O'rT of tf\ese 11:1ws, to great extent, t admonish both our Negro and whlte dtlzens to beware the radical fringe ln b"C>th places, Use prudence and reason so that we may avoid the pitfalls wfltcn can destroy the '\ '• respect and friendship which are the foundatfons of a good race relatlo!'}'-'-'·"-'"-''· C: Yeah, okay, yeah. S: "The ctty commission of St, Augusttne situation, problem, however this is J as passing the buck, No decision by a committee of thts type could oe." .. , of the legal fmplicatfons fnvolved, The city commtsslon ts responsible to all ()(1 Jy the citizens and can ~o ffiOl"e accept recommendations from any commtttee which would ---------------a possible law sutt by adding a 0-ona fi'de '\. legal status, Furthermore, a bi~racial commtttee'\. · ~~-------~--......---~ -----------~ will polarfze the white race the the Negro race and -----------~· · · · il 'S'S H•"'l.tli'v'll. that there ts a racial difference because the city commt·ssion of St, Augusti'ne interracial stand that ft fs responstole for only munfciple · "'-\~'; · \\_~~~~"-' ...-~~~~~~~~~-...--~~....,...........- ,, fadl i'ties, Let me tnterject here that at that time the state of Florfda hqd, by_ CRSTA 6A pcige 19 mjb R; a trespass law cind these were the things that, uh, the, ttl.ese dernonstrcitors C: S: vro~'' ; ~, would do, They wepe- go.ftfe ¥tJJ a store downtown and lay cil 1 over tt\e floor 1 ike a and the people cotJ 1 dn "t get in and out 1 ~----~-~--~~-- They were about to arrest, to call the police to come down there and remove them, {).,~!' \mty the state tresspass lE:lw, police depctrtment had not ctlternative accept to go down and remove these peop 1 e phys i'cct 11 y from the p rem r ses, there's still trespctss tng lctw __;_~ _1:1_·1_ _r_ J.._;v._r_t_·_ 1 _, __________. _~-".'.· .~. <. ... .·... " ..".. ."...- '-'·-·. Yes? ~~Nt/ I think there's stfll trespass law out they wouldntt, they were! th·ey werel\in the erf: pt Of') \N ~ (') state ctnd these were the 1€tws on whtch we mi'.'tde arrests 'at thes-e, ~ were violat"J1 ing ----·-·. f.._. l_~-_C_l_l)_·- ---- for their own personct 1 reason~ "'-·o ;\ J · fAt 1'<:,p.). .y n - It W€1Sn 1t by ordinance, It wasn 1·t oy the crty commissron or a mandate from the city government, 11The city commission nas no legal or moral r\'ght to tell any merchant how to operate his business- The decision, any decision to file an order to has oeen set forth ln the ~~---~------~......-~__,.,_......,..~ previous statement. f." f ..._ n '. ~ ~"'I\ s ) r Cl (( rt / ,\ ~ ,· !J f\ s . t" I) l . ~1:1l~tf01 '', regu 1a t i ori-s-___.,_ .f\_. . .· _)_·_l_· _1 :1_·-.... f!_t1_~. ·_?_i_~_.. , _h_.e__._ '·~\,..._. _ making statements to that effect, . b&- f~ ,-.~((!, ,, Parents of teenage cf\ildren~should know..,.~and this, to me, is an important statement, cause bel teve tnat right here is the start of the lack of respect we have for law in this count{(r) todciy and it, L c l t l<'. \./J1U ( think it started back in the (ivil f('ights ~ovement~ ~ klds, twelve, fourteen years old--were urged to go out and break laws, any law, tf you didn't ltke ' the law, go out and break it"'.-whether~· it was a good law or a t:rad law:-not have it changed through the legal process, just go out and break the law, And I predicted then we were going to see· ,/I/ 4 f rampant crtme in this country based ~~,'-'-----~----~ on th is IA r4il\~ of young people to get out and if you dontt like something do awciy with it' ·A Vi J· I ·f h, nk r'Ir and t think it ~s< " ' ' ' think it's coming fos·t, '! this country, I Pa rents of teenage children of both. CRSTA 6A page 20 mjb S: races snould know where their cnfldren cire at al 1 tt'1nes and sttould not let tbem to Be put In a situation which cc::in lead to trouole, tt rs a resporisNl'flity of parents to see that thetr ch i1 dren a re home at an early hour and know whom they are associating with all 'tl:le. tim~ One of the Baste tngredi·ents of good citizenship ts a respect for law and order, I would lt'ke to take tnls opportunity ~ ~. ri'ff 1s fo COf'\~~-'\Ci\~· {)V..r--tM enttre poltce department and tne ~errtfts. office for tne speedy and efficient handling of the recen~ i Ylt ·/Jtfl t t.vl,c~ 'tJcCf1v·cJ. I 4 .Suen fndrviduals nave demonstrated good cltizenshif} /f1· .. Ti.f'bt--t/i-12 f-r:;, \,/V\./' police r J'\l~ ~ e r;' (' s I) t i~'\ ( ;) .1~1 J 5 /t ~I; \.r; l,rf.; J?. .> 1-J k f A~flc;.tr.(/- f hl shooting. fl J')J /At!f v.,~.\v I . because ·Some tlHngs transplred earlier out t-~never did call the polfce department C'.f/d -ft//· nol~Jr l.br?!Af /./- ''"- t:tt just let it 10 OY\· ·ufti· ···tn{·· f/.f:··· t;/>//,·. /},.e··5lc,dz'r.q, ;:; v ''but certain individuals had demonstrated good citizenship and reported~ police ~he series of in~.1~~ /eoJ;1-i}·vp.. ·fnJ··of-· S/ic·Qnf'', C: Uh huh, she told me \,A/Cl5 C: +s- there any bickering on the commission at all during tha~~ ....... ~---------~ pol icles7 C: How about the business community, do they pretty much support or were they,,,, vJd) S: MQ, I think the best damn thrng we ever had is I got the largest vote that was ever given when I was elected to the clty commission. ~~~~~~~~~- ran two more, for two more times, was re~elected both times, One time I was unopposed and I· come within about thirty votes of getting...----------- and I got wr thin th i rty votes of the .;._.. _____________________., ,..·,- '-·, ,_ CRSTA 6A pcige 21 mjb S: in pol tttcs and God, I· was elected, re..,.etecteck '\. --~~~~~~~~~~~~~--_...,- C: Thatts so~ something •••• s: I thinkwtth my, l thi'nk the communft~t>usrness~wl'se and al1s1Jpported.the city commission and the er ty government" --~~~~~~_,..~~~~~~~~~~~--~-- C: l\ppreciate your time, I, I really want to .... t ran into one.·f-~/il.{ lo/1y 7-l~f . w~ !, ov~r tAf ' v S: C: S: s: who was reat ly interesting. I .go.AG- the H?stodcal Society and there was an •1 If .1 ,, election notice and I t/l.5Sv.r''1f'. t(- · was 1·65,~ sat'd4 Attentron, citizens of our city, don 1t be mislead. It has been revealed that John Bailey, Carlton O'Neill and Dr, Joseph Shelley made a secret pact with the Nattonal Association of Negroes for Integration, It says two thrngs i 1} to integrate all our schools, motels, hotels and so on; and 21 to appoint Negroes to the quadracentennial committee, 0 /, Vote, it says~at the bottom,'vote to elect R,C, Blackner, Jim Dart and Harry Gutterman. ,, Save our way of 1 ife, fht__ Alright, }et me tell you what happened on that, The morning of/\e 1 ect ion '.day they put out 5,000 of those folders all over town, Daylight, on the morning of election day, John Bailey and Carlton OfNeill called me up, Harry Gutterman"Jt \,(./~~ on the commission. J Uh huh, I B)1,ch1~ r w~~,if- tttd_ , , ,who's the other one? 111D1t/J 5flQ.f //. tf'my Here Oll and that was a, that was, they figured that~ by putting all those damn folders out that it would be too late for us to counteract it. John Bailey called me up and Carlton called me up. Carlton O'Neill was upset about it, He said, 1 \lhat are you going to do? . '' /I You ought to get on the radfo and deny all of it, I said, Hell, Carlton, anybody that knows me knows rt's not true, Anybody who knows you and knows John knows it~s not true,\ \ I said, II Don~t let lt bother you, forget it~' ' Wel 1, I CRSTA 6A page 22 mjb S: I got the most numoe r of votes and John Bal 1 ey got the next 1 a rges t number of votes, Car1'ton didnit win, Harry Gutterman was the thtrd guy ~'-~"O"n ' ....,.::;o-;..__,._.........,,....,._ l wr . ~{},tf" Blackner got beat, That was i·n the FUFI, C: Was Gutterman really involved rn this thtng? Thi5''., ·..:. •. -1 f:.-·_A_1_·11_t;.__· . --------.-S: I think he was behfnd it, C: Yes? S: Quite frankly, He was quite, he was a pol itictan, Somebody was behind it and I think it was somebody in that trio,,, c: Wel 1,.,, c: ••• and I think he was the most likely prospect and f 1m sorry that, that he 1s not C: s: Huh? for- P ~iof C: ••• fie.r comm i s s ion I& ~, s = Ye()\\ · -do11 1 t aS'f< except he later, Harr'l> later ran for..., f:!e had a file on about 1500 peop 1 e 1 n this town, ~tte;:::a~ l f he cou 1 d get about 1500 votes, he could get elected,~Harry \vrrS · (( .to~{tA //!fie cr/fl(J'r; μ,_ ¥eY had a, a small group of people in this town and he was like an actor on the He didn't work. He was retired, He was, he'·d been an enforcer for~:: ...f.._ h_t._ __ There was, l wasn't involved in that thing cause I'm waiting on the city commission. He was on the commission before I was, A group of guys tried to get him removed from the city commisslon because he was, '-._'··. he was arrested on a felony charge up there in New York some place fo~' --~- ---------------some people down or the"-_. ________ _ C: Do you know, do you think he really -----------------------~ That he,., CRSTA 6A page 23 mjb ! S: No, he didn~t think that, That was strictly poHtfcs, Tf:'lat was. stri·ctly C: $ po 1 i ttcs, strictly politics, :j'\dtt ? Jv. lf What about dtm' S impson;'S.( Don Simpson? V< nJ~ r Don Simpson?· I flna11y made a, t finally passed a, a, ffi..my powers as<\'\'\,_··~~-- mayor, I I'm empowered, under the law; the mayor's empowered~ under the law;__ ___ _ to maintain peace in the communf ty, In other II(! v1..r/J.J vJy get up and say,...irJtttf:';_~ hold your right .:.· words"' t can get up.~/it ,, Plr))i'c7 1 • f· 4l IA.f 1' hand 'Ofh t can swear him in as a deputy and say everyone here who takes this oath of offlce has got to obey me right now and do what I tel 1 them to do. The mayor has that right, I got that f have, t carried a paper with me at a 11 t i mes so t co u 1d i nvoke that rt gh t .....:-.tif"-f~.:...fh_;....11_,,.yj'-.·: :...(}_!-_· ._ _.= _:.'- \"<-.:_ \.·. .,....J.. ,·. ... ./'\~-1·.. ,......-=---<''+-;,...c· ;1,.__.. and I invoked that, We were getting to the point where we were afraid that the blacks weren't getting much of a following ti·11 at night, They decided to march at night, They wanted to stir up violence and I think, now to be honest with you, King and some of those people and Andrew Young and the rest of them wanted to see some Negroes murdered in the city to really put the fmprfnt on us~ to really give the Civil Rights movement the thrust it needed1 just like happened -:::; down in Philadelphia '·" ·Civil Rights moverient, ~-~----~----~--~---- We were afraid that was going to happellJSO I passed a what._ you call Ct a no marching from 8:30 at dark at night till 8:30 in the morning, They could march all day long~ but because we~ve got poorly lighted streets and real narrow streets, real dark and hard to police we felt we couldn"t rri11_rcf,er5 protect the~Mff~vJQf'Ui~~-~.A/j/\ • Judge Sfmpson said they could march. They could march any time they wanted to, Well 1 I overruled Mr, Judge ____________________________________________ ['"__ - CRSTA 6 pC1ge 24 mjb S: Simpson. °'\iqd /~ /:tf · ()fl · ~e. cal led m~)·~ ·Of! · ·lorft-lflli _B ""-r_.y'-'.e. ." ':..;..-r_,_'·----- and -Jimmy ·~tnes v1as ~ttorney ~eneral of the State of Florida and be had them reply ~~--~--------~~--~~--~ .......... ..--.~~~ :: the rvri+:t ""'Nf r4vr:1 t' ~, ~ if:deral court,anc.! I spent nine'9 (?,.. · "'"' y·nrlkf.J ~ days on this court and t never heard such,4( Mr, Ku1nsker an~"'-..\.. . .'. _._._._.-·---~--· attorneys 1 for the American Civi'l Uberttes Unton,9nd that t~ ShO.vJ(I weis IY!Cf.Jl o{;q I "-:. -R-v+ .-n - -l-/t-r- --'-'"- --- to them 5'00tt-kl what he ·had- hl~~ · 11J 5 I. 0 r.v.fJ this country what a, what a, I don't know what. He should hcive been barred from law practt·ce. He broke every rule ~r;!. court- · ; roceJ\. n · fAa J. 1 /u·1.:. /s /o hreq.f:. q i-i l ,t thttf- Jl'~1- let him get away with it. It was obvious up there11Judge Simpson had been made a promise by the President of the United States that if he would let them do what they wanted to that he'd be promoted and he was promoted to the Fifth Circuit . ~v.~Jdl ~ of Appeals. We had Chester who was the finest lawyer in Florida at that time, C: Jacksonville? S: Jacksonville. He and Judge Simpson were close personal frtends and they fell out C: . completely~ Judge Simpson f,ktt"'f-.,c_"/tl:.ie ~the court, He just let this guy· K!Jf 'f\sJ/er do anything he wanted to, He'd browbeat witnesses. I got so mad one day in that court I got up and stomped out right Jn the middle of court and walked out in the hallway,,nd Charles Q" 1' ~ ., v• " /\ , Chuck ·_ _~t _J·""'".-1-\""-. ' '.1.i_ ___" ~ was down here representing NBC or CBS hl on television once in a while. '" "' ~--------~-------~~~----~ S: He was taere for two years, tC! 1 ked to him many t tines cmd he was a great adml rer of Martin Luther King and we would discuss all angles of it, I walked out of that courtroom and'\'''(:QV~~A""~< walked up behind me,-:-followed me ou:,and he. said, 11 Well, mayor what do you think of the proceedings?' I said, 1\1 think they're /\ /-0 bt CRSTA 6A pcige 25 mJb s: " the loustest, this ts IJ,,l ~~JI{ WI$ ~cfir3 . . I the lous·rest damn tl ng five ever wttnessed,H The way 0 h /J,~ 5/P1·Jd , ''r h tl . He had a young Flortda ~ighway fatrolman witness~ and he was;orowbeatrng that boy and frying to cross htm up and contradt·ct him,ctnd the boy was smart. He was 11 '°"'~-e.; WIS : /;>!> going to 1 aw school J~ f f'V'.i? f!~i" '-.... -.zJ..~· ' He st ucifEifl'; 'tr'· {yhn~f/er tJ+e.. 1 awl- ~nd · +\~.._; ( O>t) h ---=------~couldn't cross hlm up but he just used every tact rel\ he -needed ~ use to try to make hfm lose his temper and tt got so bad • I got up and left the room, Qi~~flt\ followed me out and right be'<:' --~--""~,_....._-~~~ hind him there was a big old marsha11, federal marshall about six foot two and he and t got to be real good friends and as a mcitter of fact t think be ts still up in Jacksonville !..". d he walked out behind :; he was · · · · · · · · and I thin~ about rw... +/,-((I Q (1 !till' ~' {v//ov,1td ~ out rn tb.e hal 1 because 'fo Oi.ti'1r1 1'111,/..1/I turned t-b~ 00f'fl9-f0 and he said, ~, what do you ,, !lnJ ,, 'f.JIJ.. " ? 11 I said, ListenAno good son of a bitch you , I said,''t'm fed up to here with you and your two.,..faced way you're handling the ' I t •J.,. \) It. 1;,1 Qkll'. I• way yoJ talki!Rt ~and I said,'1·1 1m fed up with that judge in there and I'm fed up wl th that farce~ that's going on that they 1 re ca 11. .1 ng a trt•a 1'4-'' and I said,11 Don 1 t you ever come up and talk to me agatn: said. ''t don't want to see you again. ,, ,, I don't want to talk to you again, What do you mean, what ,, II do you mean? I safd, If you don't get away from me rim lfable to hit you right ,, between the eyes, That was the only trme I lost my temper in two years and he turned around, he got right and walked off and left s and when he dfd that big ht : marshall came up to me and reached out and grabbed my hand and shook it and~said, \' ''Mayor,· 1 wished you would have hit him. He said/11 feel the same way about this as you do:' That was the biggest--- )(uhtt5/).t"'r '.5 · · '- son sat rn that court-:- N :e. ~ri i..v11"1 That 1s how biased he was. Well, ! ffiilde 1.1p ~y-fl+nd ~Mr, Judge Simpson, I talked to my brother~ who i's an attorney, and my wHe and t said, r 1.t/ h //YI ' 1 r f this guy ff nes me a thousand do 11 a rs; thirty days t n J a i· 1 , I '·111 going to .ge- ir ~. ~. ... ,,.r,1~~ -lo 'JO ahead amt lot l'ilr&..send me to jail' for ·contempt, for ·tnree ,mantns1;t 'rn gein~ to '~because I'm not goi·ng to· fctlj · 110 · · f1Y\( f ' and let Judge Simpson run like that and while our trial was in progress: the Ctvtl Rights Bi 11 was signed and the law Ct t\ J ~---------~---~~~~-~~~----..-. . \.. The trfal was never completed, C: s: Yeah, he went to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals~- He was promoted1 grid I think ff) : he was bought and paid for by Lyndon Johnson,.-~ let this guy Kuhnstler get . /l'J J..J A. Hl'! fn;b1b11 ~ctr ; , 11 /~ away with murder eR-4 I I\ e. C (?Pr f r11Jr~. ~s U•a4::J..s (I'' / '1 ' ever s I nee. don 1 t understand how the guy gets away with it, His conduct in the Le. courtroom ... -'i-f'any other lawyer, anyplace else, anywhere else· did that, he'd be absolutely thrown in jail. Any judge would throw the lawyer in Jall'-'-:1111'('.,tl<:ljy ho.,, t~;~ qtu;<. - : l,A/ay3 v.1il~ f11~ ""'""''o.ti t w1'f.J.. "·""' :a s,J;gA and o'Ote GQIB~ He parted O'ltel"-~ lie did11.Lf:.., he c;U..d.i:+J..t stay ~· c: S: We asked Judge Scott ruled in favor of us and ~-----------------~ one thing wanted the court aoout-.'>" ~-------------- -~------~· Judge Scott, a federal Judge.;""f.r/PV · fo f~ff have you =tkere, Incidentally~/\ looked up the report of the Flori'da Legfslatlve lnvesti~ gattve Commlttee'l Have you seen that report?. C: Yeah. S: They di'sbanded that organiza.tion._,_._.. _ ·~"·._.· · _.· --------- all thfs transptred and conducted an tnvestigatton, CRSTA 6A page 27 mjb S: C: S: C: . . . '- . \ . \ .' . ' ' "' ' \ ' . \' . . . . ., """-"' . . . ---~-------~-~~ Is there anything that you haven 1·t told me that you thi·ng wi'l "",'·. .-. ---~"----.- . "-..· ' '\.., No, except I think it took a while for relations to get l)ack where thet-~ · .,..._ I think they a re as good now as they were before c:d 1 this I ' happened and sti 11 feel the same way I did before al 1 this.~-·-·--------··-'-~ I say I still feel the same way, I was very sympathetic towards theblackpeople and their plight. I'm not as sympathetic today because".. I· fh/11 k · -;f,,'Jpk is a bad dea 1 , I ~ our education is still the answer to it and some of them don't want to do it, They don't want to work,~nd I think the ' out in California startedthis case where he was denied medical school and somebody was •••• C: '" S: They don't want it to go to Supreme Court and I think they're afraid that they'll, rule in favor of this boy that's its really going to be a blow to·
National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) -- Florida Highway Patrol -- Palatka, Fl. -- Monson Motor Lodge -- St. Augustine Historical Society -- St. Augustine Quadricentennial Celebration -- Arrest of Mary Peabody -- Civil Rights Act of 1964 -- Desegregation of St. Johns County Schools -- Lie-in -- St. Augustine City Commission Election -- Night March
Metadata URL:: http://civilrights.flagler.edu/cdm/ref/collection/p15415coll1/id/1048
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Extent:: 26 pages
Contributing Institution:: Proctor Library
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