- Collection:
- Civil Rights Library of St. Augustine
- Title:
- J.A. Webster : Transcribed Interview
- Creator:
- Webster, J.A.
Colburn, David - Contributor to Resource:
- Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, University of Florida
- Date of Original:
- 1970-08-15
- Subject:
- Civil rights--United States--Florida
- People:
- Webster, J.A.
Colburn, David R.
Davis, L. O.
Gordon-Mills, Rosalie
Hayling, Robert Bagner
Jones, Malcolm
King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968
Murray, Richard J.
Peabody, Mary E. (Mary Elizabeth), 1891-1981
Puryear, Royal W.
Shelley, Joseph, 1915-2007
Stuart, Virgil
Twine, Henry
Wolfe, H.E.
Wright, Thomas A.
Young, Andrew, 1932-
Calhoun, Solomon
Deswann, Thomas
Mason, Otis T., 1838-1908 - Location:
- United States, Florida, 28.75054, -82.5001
- Medium:
- transcripts
- Type:
- Text
- Format:
- application/pdf
- Description:
- Interview with J.A. Webster, a local African American educator in St. Augustine. Webster discusses the education system in St. Augustine before, during and after the civil rights movement.
; CRSTA llA Subject: J. A. Webster Interviewer: David Colburn 8-15-70 sj C: . This is David Colburn, I'm in St. Augustine, Florida, on August 15, 1970, interviewing Mr. J. A. Webster. Okay, Mr. Webster, when did you first become involved in the racial crisi§, I know it started in 1963) ~t what point did it begin to affect you? W: I've been here since 1936, and I haven't b~en directly involved in racial picture except in my school work. C: Now, you were principal, weren't you, of Murray High ~chool? W: No, I was principal of Webster Sixth Grade C.e..vife.r- . C: Webster Sixth Grade. And how long had you taught, how long did you teach in the school system, and how long were you principal? W: Well, I was principal up until the time I And, my first job wasn't at the Webster Sixth Grade Center. I began working with Florida Memorial College/ Under fl'ollier, President filky ,,J} Collier, and then1 later, Sidwfry", and then Dr. f,Lv'L<..,,V: .. vi.J ~ ij C: Now at what year did you become principal of Webster? w: Oh, ~,Q.... \(l. ~.\cl .,;,r..,o• C: What were, how would you describe race relations in St. Augustine as you were a young man, and while you were principal? W: Well, schools were totally not integrated at that time. It was 5c..hod~ r. ,, L ,.,- ifv V.J.lrr(, r wen-/- fo all black ~ C1 f thf i1rrr .i.- V}Cy ~-1' And sOf1-w-a-5~ work at Florida Memorial College at that time. C: Um hmm. What was the relationship/betwee~you and the white people in this community, was it ..... ? CRSTA llA page 2 W: Well, fortunately, I have always enjoyed a very fine relationship between the whites, educationally; JXnd in other ways you might take it. C:~cii~~ef +Jb(l.,1 w~'S --"---:----C: Was Dr. Ha; ling the man who was -pr1k'!...b~. · ·. W: Yes, I was here at that time, and Dr. Ha'-Jling was he_re, and ~hi \A)(\(, -were pr~oboA1/d +he. emancipator, you might say. ~e was involved in a lot of things for freedom of the black race~· C: How would you describe Dr. Ha'Y-ling? W: A very energetic personality. Someone who participated in. C: Was he easy to get along with? W: Very, very easy. And understanding . He was also my dentist. C: Yes, I understand he also had most of his patients were white, o.J ++1 ::. ~_,:,-,.,,J :1. ~ecause he was about the only dentist in town. No".:; he took over Dr. Gordon's ... Ge:1 J~n,; W:A Jhat is right. C: In 1963, I think, was the year in which much of the ... W: ~-~trife started. C: Started, right. That young white fellow was killed in that year, and some young black students from Florida Memorial, and high. school_ students participated with Dr. \ 1-L'.;,-;-- 1: C?r1·r,:.·;. 1~·'.l.-t 1·s corn-::::t. Was Dr. Hafling, did he have, in Ha¥ling in the demonstrations. -14.e-- that year, did he haveAcooperation from most of the black community at that time? W: !00 ;+ vJo..s; Not Q-R-e--ili:ladr~{"<-°Q_ t._,'OlfU reluctant. ~Ji? How about Dr. iioy-fier in '6 3, was he a supporter of ... ? Yes, he allowed to have interracial conferences, and so forth on the campus~ ~e was outstanding person in bringing about} you see; because his school was a private school, it was not connected with the public. C: Who would you say were the black leaders in those years, besides Dr. Hafling and Dr. ~;_;:;;C;;f . W: C: W: C: W: C: W: Let me see. Was Reverend Wright, I guess he was before he left? Reverend Wright, and a Mr. Twine. Mr. Henry Twine, yes, I've talked to him, I've interviewed him. Henry and his wife Cath}:rine. Yeah. And, let's see i.t1ctc w~xe, don' t come to me ,.1 ri'q~~- hexe. • wexr C1..'Ju1b6!t ·tuhdp· Outt·e a t; 1;) +~.c1.J /\ The na~es I \..,' Right. Were there any other ministers that were prominent besides Reverend Wright, especially after he moved? o.n l -t l~ c ·r D . Reverend Wright~was a minister, let's see, there was a Reverend Bass here at the Eirst Baptist Church. And there also was a preacher at the First Baptist Church that they burned up his car, but his name doesn't come through. ~ his C: Yeah, IJm'-~g}tt know who you're talking about, ..:t.h.e name doesn't come to me either. I know who you're talking about. Why did, what relationship did you have with Dr. Ha'iling, did you work with him? You were in a sort of a precarious position L CRSTA llA page 5 W: because you were principal and of course you could be fired if /Ii\( fh;1..f, the superintendent got irked at your behavior or anythingA How did you respond in these sorts of things? '{ t, Now, as far as providing food for the out-of-town~ and association with ~hem, I .w-as Yes(pncltd prc'tfd,- we)/ J fut I was never in a public demonstration, walking up and down the streets and picketing and that sort of thing. C: Well, '64 was the big year, because that's the ·year that Dr. King came , and And 'r·e"..J \J OJ.I\ o • W: lhr,1 H1r~u} hi\..-1 in. 'ia;/ and also this iovernor' s mothe-n1from Mas sachus et ts ... ' ~ I - C: Governor Peabody's mother,~yes.~What impact did the demonstrations W: C: have on relations between whites and blacks in St. Augustine? . ';:.m be..cc~,zse · Well, it had a terrible impact on ... t-l;i.tMn., .s-e that negroes here were not afraid to demonstrate, and to march in the streets~a~d So so it did have an ~- on them. Did whites react angrily to this, did they put pressure on you and other blacks to ... ? W: No pressure was put on me, and most of the pressure was put on during the demonstration period. C: Could you describe some of the pressure that was put on you? W: In fact, no di re ct pres sure was put on me as a pr1 f' '.?!CJ( oF -ti1c 5" c ~ool. mean most of the teachers were o.peoirifcd -fron-1 +"1e who.{- 1·e" 1'f C<'l! ki;{1 Olff 1 • • • our1 ~recommendationsV~ teachers. fr CY'h C: Did Mrs. Gordon work at your school, or dfd she work ... ? W: No, she didn't, she worked at Excelsior High School, and later at Murray High School. She was a very good friend of mine. C: Yes, !~interviewed her as well. Now, who were the principals at CRSTA llA page 6 those schools, Murray, who was the principal of Murray High School? W: When, now or then? C: Then. W·: Richard J. Murray~. And later, A. Malcolm Jones, a very dynamic, dynamic personality. And, then Solomon Calhoun was at Excelsior, the elementary school C: Was, is Jones still in town? W: Jones died; he\ decco,s:cq~ 1 1 -rha.·t ~ ·\ro o~.'to • C: Oh, he did? I see.~ What, after the demonstrations ended, Dr. W: C: W: C: W: C: W: King left town. Why did Dr. Ha'/lin~,~~M'/C? In Well, it made it very uncomfortable for Dr. Ha'fling h.ere., a-ad-c: killed h1~ d,1:1, . f0d, +he"} shot in his house a coup;f of times.,.A-~;llis family, yfo.li; his family was very much at stake..fry the situationV so that's why he left. Vie.re.,..,,.; Well, he was a great loss, wasn't he? Yes, he was. What, what were relations like after the demonstrations ended in fpr the fall of 1964? Was it really difficult fo~~e black people in St. Augustine, were the white people very unfriendly? How did they respond after demonstrations, and .. ? the, Well, I don't think y-ettr white people, well the type of white people I came in contact .with,_ was always 6td·1~01·Al'i ~· _ . , •. -90..'IDlo.b! e o\- ,,• 1- I Lt~, V~), ovh.uci:1 d "·I- ' -wlnrreVeT Vvl'10J '2'/e '(.'' . ' I~ 7 u _, t' ' ' !L• l (' .'.i. .::, ) J:i '1J)_i ci "! J Yes .~I don't know' any of them that did any under- / cover work in the education system here. CRSTA llA page 7 C: IR\! ~.Jl "Tt , ~ Did you hav~ the Ku Klux Klan types, and those kind coming out here and harassing black people out here at all? W: No, they didn't come out here, but they did march up in the l.Vl '--!1d' OJ('O..J city, Lincolnvill~~ in Central Avenue, but never Ku Klux Klan here. C: So you didn't have to worry about them shooting at you or any-thing like that? W: No, no.Jn o. C: What was the impact -HH beginning of schooJs on the schools? Now, you had desegregation,~chools,.1 at+u ft1ct-1) desegregationJ a:.i. iBlra~ you had a few black children who went to the white schools, and then gradually it started to improve. Did it have any bad effect on the school system, the demonstrations? W: No. C: It didn't have any at all? W: No. C: What about after desegregation began~ I guess, school desegregation began, what, in 1~68? In St. Augustine? W: Yes, yes. C: What was, how did that go, did you remain the principalf I guess _ w: ye51 ye!,· you did, you remained the principal at Webster.Ac:And did you have many, did you have integrated student body there at the beginning of 1968? W: Yes. C: I guess you didn't have much trouble at the elementary school level, did you? W: No, no. When they integrated the school system, they did it CRSTA llA page 8 according to having census. My school was made a sixth gra4e school. And then, it didn't matter whether you were white, black, red, or green, if you were in Ccx e:_r the sixth grade, you came to \A)dxJr:1- Sixth Grade -st.hoe-1. Same with the seventh grade U~rif C.'( . I ct,f #, e, and the fifth grade -S etUf'I, which is ro./'f: 0 Or; -tHily tG 0 ld Or O~f1cir · I .. · L J ' -la~ .)(rrr.r _?..chool. :::'· C.eM+cr scttlp C: Right, right. Did, were you involved in that fight at all in 1969, where some of the John Birch people, white citizens, councilpeople tried to change the textbooks in the high school? W: No, I wasn't involved. C: You weren't involved in that at all. How would you characterize desegregation, school desegregation, has it been a success in ·st. Augustine? c.er+o.iv-;\,1 · , It sJ+Qu±;d I n ci $ tit,. l' :::i_ W: ~~~~~~"'--~~ success. ,It should:. C: What about economic opportunity for black people in St. Augustine, is there much opport~nity for black people in this community? - W: Very little. Very, very little. The majority of the, very little lhey industry here that employs negroes. -¥-eti got boat building place down there, and, let's see what else do they have. They have the,wel/ o.nd f.h,'::rcrs all the places,,, the black women work in motels ,;\cleaning, and so hu_ 1 ·fft,• i t 1 ) - forth,,\ very little industry that hires coloreO. .:p..e.o~__, /r black people. C: What about Fairchild, now, did they, when they were here, did they W: C: W: employ many black people? Yes, they did. Now, why, when did they move? lo~~'' h<1.5 b<'Cn . Let's see, how,,-0o-:l;:d. Fairchilds~ CjoMfromh<>re~ I'd say around eight - ---------------------------------------------------- CRSTA llA page 9 years. 1 VI V'1 C: Eight years, huh? That sounds about righ't, 1972. Did/\why did they leave, was it just bad business, things really slump for them? W: Things slumped for them, and I don't think there was any pressure put on them by organizations or anything to leave, it was just a poor situation here. C: Yeah. Now, who were the leaders in the white community in those years? I guess, ... W: When you say the leaders, what kind, you mean the, yes, the Wolf. C: Wolf, I guess, was one of the most prominent. How about Shelley, Dr. Shelley, was he, would you characterize him as a leader{ e-r W: c~ C: desegregation. \} /.'.~ rt--:;;~ ,..... , : w : ;\ :E}~ttri"i"y,.... \):?-'; ... VI I+ c I. C: Did you ever have any workings with him in particular? W: No deals. r' , l ,, C:A'Now, Dr. Hartley, of course, was the superintendent of schools then. W: That is correct. C: What was he like to work with, and again, I can go off the record on this, if you'd like. W: No, you can put this on the record. He was very fine to work with. Very fine and understanding. He did what he could to hold things together between the black and the white. I can't ---------------------------------------------------- CRSTA llA page 10 I r'· , ' ' d .f' -T l ~"\ ! T (' ' / remember him doing anything ~inately/against the bla'ck race. He was very fine to work with. ·n1 1I. .r1- C: Now, he was, of course,f\ t1jl(• C:t)~ did you ever have any dealings with Davis at all? W: Not any at ail. C: I heard that he became a little more open after the crisis, a little more ... W: Well, naturally, he would become more, more, what shall I say, he should become more open, he was running for office again. Naturally, you can't run for office without at least being on both sides of the fence. C: That's a good point. How about Police Chief Stuart? He's still there, what sort of man was he? W: I found him to be a very interesting person. I never had any \ t<• • J'I ' j.Vl.A.•~ trouble with him, he always cooperated with me.~~Jt~~ Stuart. C: What about, how would you say that the situation is now in for-~ St. AugustineAtoday for black people? Is there much political ,,.., opportunity~ ~e, you've already said that economic opportunity is very small~ bu:{ ... . W: That's true. C: Are the young people all leaving St. Augustine because of the lack of economic opportunity? ----~ ---------------------------------------------" CRSTA llA page 11 W: Yes, yes. Educationally, there's no difference, they can go -the.. to any school they wish to, but they're stuck in a hole :th-at heo.1r. average lhck, you~d ~ . Employment situation is very;r:are-3ryrverv ooot I C: How about political opportunities? Are there any, really? W: Uht for nco roes n(~ black people? Very little. Very ._) little. Have you talked with Reverend De-sue..- ? t?h C: I have talked to Reverend DeSwann~ the Phone , yes. Thomas I W: D . ih~luev1tt'Q\ He is a very instM:t1rrental-person in this ar.::o__, and he is opening up many positions politically for negroes, and he's been quite successful at it. He is also secretary lf' NAAC.P. C: Right. How about Oms Mason? Now, he's, what, assistant superintendent of schools? ·~· (' W: No~1 he is the super--~ th~ r_leJ'.l~ntary schools 'SlApentl ~or - \~J:I f•(c15 wnci. 1 .1c b· C: Is that what he is?1ic;He works over in the school board, also doesn't he? W: Yes, he's head of all the elementary schools in St. John~ CoL{n~, C: Now, he strikes me as a very able person. W: He is a very trustworthy and able person1 ,fnd straightforward also. C: +-o be. Do you think he would have a chance ~~ superintendent once Hartley retires? W: If Hartley retires, he would be, he would have a marvelous chance. C: Would, now, he'd have to, you have to run for election here to be elected superintendent, don't you? W: Yes. L CRSTA lla page 12 C: Do you think e-nough white people would vote for Mr. Mason? W: He's very well liked by whites and blacks. C: He really impressed me when I interviewed him. What about, has there been a big difference, or very little difference in the relations between the races since 1960 to today? Do you .see much of a difference really, other than the desegregation of the school system? W: Well, it seems that the white person is understanding the negro better since the integration, they never had opportunity to know C: W: C: . the negro, the gap was such a diffence between them. Now they get into a meeting with the negroes, and now, in the educational system, if you earn a certain degree, you are pai~ black or white, according to your qualifications. So, I think, I think teaching is about the only thing that, savior for the black race, because its nothing el':i e for them to do. l . !)_ 1),f\],j-- that's what seemed to me, as well in St. LI Augustine that teaching was the best outlet ... , . 1f wO..> · Viee.tssa...v-y ~ YP<.J -01~.J5 H,,c b1 ~+- 1·diet,VP11h.k1~ for the bla'ck people to oile1a • I go11~ and get as many advanced degrees as possible so that they -f-hci,.- 'SC'.\.tO.Vi":?<' could increase ~ ~' So the chan_3es in the government, governmental positions, whether it be school teaching, or working for the city, have improved would you say? Have the jobs in the city improved for .black people? W: t1e-~ C :~Yr~~10 ~a~;v:b-i'acks ~::e on the fire department, do you have any idea? CRSTA llA page 13 W : No '{)-C_ • C: That's what I thought. And how many on the police department? o--1 least W: Abou~l wo. C: Two. So really, now that's one of the areas that Reverend neS~c:-- is trying to open up, the fire department, the police -1.i-i ~ri> department, so ~ more young blacks can ·be hired and go to work in those occupations. But obviously, he's having a lot of~ Y-e.s I s 1 -- T •(\", ca.. l'IJ rae-et-i-n-g- a lot of resistance get ting them opened up. W: Oh-6' yes, yes indeed ha. ;5. 1:-; C: So really, when you come right down, it's as you said, that -bf...v tA-4.-v-rAt-v the school system is the key to.,,. . . v A 101. f ~- W: ~Yes, it is. But, I tell you something else might be interesting; suppose they have thirty percent black participation in the school system, and as principals, we have only three black principals and there are fourteen schools in the county; And -ftca..-i is including myself. YPa h C: ~Jt; How about the school teachers themselves, do the blacks constitute about thirty percent of the staff, the school teaching staff? ·w: Oh, probably a little bit more. f\ 1·1'. b·[ ~ (' I··\ , rn !l 1 r rf') v e 1 .L s c ~- • C:A Maybe that's the way they justify it. Having only three principals. W: C: W: Yeah. & G Well, Mrs. }(ordon, now I guess Mrs. fordon rvldls l\ one who they never looked at ;he ability. Seems to me ... for -th-e principal, was certainly ' ' I 0_ f' cl y: ~lei all +o Retired now. Oh, she has a tremendous ability. She'l-±~ do anything fo a),\ J ~ she wants/\ she's very well f1r.w:i~·.+ (1f--, by whites and blacks. she's v CRSTA llA page 14 done some pretty fine things, you know. She's over Echo House~ C, t2_l,'.'.h t- ~H'\ _ ~ 3i1-1:\ et~ Wodu::) . \"J ._ ano counselling ~, she -wa-5 ~g very hard at that. Ai\ J jhe has done a lot for b~ack and white, of aging. C: The Echio1 -House does what now? C:Whcel5~0Ka.t,ylo-h' , T hc tdt 1f'>'" orjo1 f en -f-h a.1-· , W: Feeds_,. 8:ftEl gives Meals on Wheels./\ W:Is my smoking bothering you? C: No, not at all. Has the, is the city government easy to work W: with, is the commission easier for people like Reverend De.-:,t.te to work with? Are they at least concerned ..... '1.EX'/_ They'reAcooperative, at least when he asks for a hearing, or conference, they give it to him, because they realize he's a very powerful person in this community, and when it comes time for voting for various positions, they're going to need the black vote. C: Right. And, he, Reverend D.2.5 lJ c is extraordinarily influential W: C: W: in the black community? whe 11 you ·r-c Extraordinarilly so, and at first· wo hoar from. ----~-10 and also Twine, and and, if you need any help, in connection ----- +hr{rc vu Y. fovH r·((d 1A.h; with the N A/\c. P ·; n:J VUV'V) f'v1 T , that's where t;he;i:r p-e-wer "omcs -frem. Twine is the president, isn't he? h;s · is Bte secretary. 6u.J Pe.sue is the most powerful. h'1 s He has a great following in tire church. :=. C: ~~ £,hurch, yes. So the church is still a very important institution in the black community, obviously. W: Oh, definitely. Jf /ot his church, the church, the church or C: Are the young people that involved in the church,Aare they as involved as the older people? Or are they turning away from CRSTA llA page 15 .g.,r a-r e,;,:_.t.lrn. y. :::.:turn~waT""f"rom the church~ J} ow wo u 1 d you des crib e that? W: I .would think that the young person is not as interested in church as a whole as the older ones. yow- The background, or the BLl t I b ackb one would be ::cfte older people in the church. -Aa.Q.. I' 11 tell --lhc5C you something, tfte. young blacks are very fearless. They don't nskin0i mind going out and ~ch- their lives or something. Something that the older people should, much more reserved than them. C: Good point. Well, I can't think of much more. Are there any things that I haven't asked you that you'd like to comment on, either way you COc.1ld that we could put off the record, or~put think appropriate~ on the tape, any W: When is your book coming out, do you have any idea? C: Oh, it won't be published for another couple of years. I won't finish it, wr.iting it ~till this Christmas. rl' ~Jri( feel ·fo W: C: And it's 5uui·d/1~ ·h hr A race relationships in St. Augustine? if'5 9 011n,_\ ~ e I Yeah~ I'm gonna look at the racial crisis, I'm gonna, I'm going to trace what race relations were like prior to the racial £r,wJVI crisis and the Brow~Adecision in the racial crisis, discuss the racial crisis and what happened, and how the white community resuonded to the black after this. And then I'm going to talk about what race relations are like now, since 1964. W: Are you going to remember the people you interviewed when your book comes out, and get a copy ~ ·r la.Ji etd· ho{d -fo{ -...I C: Well, I'll put a copy, I'll see that a copy gets over to the tY10.l''./ library. Of course they don't give me ~they only give me CRSTA llA about, the publisher gives me about eight copies. -w:., ~Oh;I see: page 16 C: So there are not enough really to distribute to all the people oxc whoAI1ve interviewed, I guess about fifty people. W: But it will be on sale? C: Yes sir. :ii• :'t'.j' your book- ~ W:~'H6w many pages do you anticipate you'll ~s C: Probably 250 pages. W: I should like very much to get a copy of it. If it's on sale, I'll buy.it. C: Well, I'll notify the people over here that, you.know, that ! interviewed'"'JJfe, I will write letters to you all, telling you that it, when it's going to be published. W: How interesting was your interview with Dr.fl.th~.tV? C: Very good, very good. He was very open about the conditions yolk ;1"!•.1.J> here, andt.told me about some of the problems he had, but also some of the things that, like people helped him with ..... (End of side one) ,------ CRSTA llA side 2 C: ..... that would be August 1, interview. '/CJ..fti J W: August the first,;\ I left ~¥t: !~e: -~?~~~, so difference ) arJ he has a lovely home. C: Oh, beautiful. () W: You met Mrs. \-t.t~? page 17 ve 'r'V ti++\ e. it was,\ rca:Hy a C: Yes, yes. I've had lunch with them, in fact. n1 y~, W:.,,1~1 Th;~y're beautiful people. C: W: Oh, they're very mtteh n~1c_e'--~P~~~o~o~\~e--~. \ VJ\:~~.br., )c1_/ur1 with my boys, and ) Once a year now, I'll come -I-tl:ccd him -<50 .[" k'nt'.-UJ +he..m furoi..(~\r. Sc..J1oa\ C!J(' a.-h~ e \je,VLttYll-\l!Cj • fv Corn(.,- v 0 C: Now how did you happen~to St. Augustine? Did your family move here? W: No, I came to St. Augustine by the way of Ecf wMd 1..\)a_fr:rs College. C: In Jacksonville? W: Yes, I taught over there one year~ ~nd President Collier came over to interview me and ask me to come over and work for the college. The college, the most, having red~eved it's accreditation \..l then, and he thought that my help, as principal of a demonstration school; would bring it up and in the next two years,~~~~~~~~ two years apart C: And he put a lot o-f -~f~~~~~-5 o( couri;cp:Ji! teacher .. : training. Dl1' . . I ( . . ' \ W: A'efinitely; cH'11vwre~-.11. · • o_(C, fot~ -lh:cc, C: As I said, ~ there;1 anything you'
Fairchild Aircraft Strato Corporation -- Florida Memorial College -- John Birch Society -- Ku Klux Klan -- National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) -- Excelsior High School -- Florida Memorial College -- Holiday Inn -- Linconvillie -- Murrary High School -- Webster Sixth Grade Center -- Howard Johnson's -- Desegration of St. Johns County Schools -- Picketing - Metadata URL:
- http://civilrights.flagler.edu/cdm/ref/collection/p15415coll1/id/1046
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- Extent:
- 17 pages
- Contributing Institution:
- Proctor Library
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