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Henry Twine : Transcribed Interview

Collection:: Civil Rights Library of St. Augustine
Title:: Henry Twine : Transcribed Interview
Creator:: Twine, Henry
Colburn, David
Contributor to Resource:: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, University of Florida
Date of Original:: 1900/2022
Subject:: Civil rights--United States--Florida
People:: Twine, Henry
Colburn, David R.
Davis, L. O.
Eubanks, Goldie
Hansen, Paul
Hayling, Robert Bagner
Kinard, William D., -1963
King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968
Lynch, Connie (Charles Conley), 1912-1972
Mathis, Charles C., Jr.
Peabody, Mary E. (Mary Elizabeth), 1891-1981
Shelley, Joseph, 1915-2007
Stuart, Virgil
Thomas, Hank, 1941-
Vivian, C. T.
Williams, Hosea, 1926-2000
Carter, Noll
Wade, Bill
Robinson, Buyan
Brunson, Charles
Chalmers, David
Dot, Jim
Johnson, Earl
Simmons, Guy, 1915-1997
Location:: United States, Florida, 28.75054, -82.5001
Medium:: transcripts
Type:: Text
Format:: application/pdf
Description:: Interview with Henry Twine, prominent leader of the St. Augustine civil rights movement and one time president of the local NAACP. Twine discuss the civil rights movement's origins in St. Augustine as well as major events between 1960-1965.
INTERVIEWEE: Henry Twine INTERVIEWER: David Colburn PLACE: St. Augustine, Florida DATE: C: \VeH l-"tn0ught::t:::wcn'.tlc;:l-start"ln-1963 and you can tel1 me how things got started •. a- fir T: Well, actually t+re first begi·rmfng- at 1'111 io::IF-laglerlt Memorial College, there / were some students who went uptown and sat in~d they called some of the trustees from other cities to come in, and they finally got~them out of ;jail 'l :n·J > h'J'.:.JI d 1 and sq~~ "t17.. And from then on out the members 'began to pi ck up and I ..+-j-+-.......... ~~· into the city. C: Was this early in 1963, do you remember~about what time? T: do not know when the sit-ins first began, when the first sit-ins actually happened. Al A lot of people claimed that Martin Luther King came and started it, but we were actually then the doing it approximately a year before King.arrived on the scene.~ after ;s.a-"Y:;;f We. on o c ri v0 NAACP ~ some workers inl'~ had/f NAACP chapter here al 1 the time, so they sent some workers iry f fellow by the name of Lutman and a fellow by the name of Brown, I· cannot think of their first names, one named Brown I think he ·0 ) vY was NAACP, and still ~in service now, and Lutman."~o young fellows, I think they came in from around Savannah, Savannah State College, I am not sure, but they --~ .. ~ came in and worked during that summer. And-j\;~ we began to make demands on -+Jre )l. \AU'v the city and~~~~the first marches that we had. C: What were race relations like before the sit-ins star~ed? T: Well, as usual,"~'1m., we thought things were good. The whites as usual, thought /d .. s.-u_,, things were good1and this wa'!5~we made any demands. This is where the troubles t (]Jv:"r; begin in 0inter....race relations. xfxax~M¥xwaxxmia~kxkexw~wi~xka~ext~ The average dif-black was happily, as it seems, h. b • ~ h 1s us1nes~ ~~ t e f.1 rst ti.m e whistlin' and doing his business and going it-' is h.e asks for a piece of the pie, ~~a about CRSTAUG 13 A LR 2 T: ferent story. C: In terms of.,~f.J. segregation, what was it, was there a segregation in the T: ot c: T: C: T: school system? Oh, everything, everything, everything, not only the school system, ' ~~ other place,f radio station, everything. They were just as loose about it as any bus terminal, and everything else. And separate white and black~· drinking fountains, white and colored at that particular time, and so forth and so on. And there were no colored restaurants uptown, you could not eat at any of the lunch counters, or any other place •. How about the library? Did you us~ the library? ,., •, ho.d I really don't know, now we~ never tried to use the library before, we did try at that: particular time and we were turned away. Not only that but even churches, right now very few blacks can be found attending white churches around How about the Catholic ~/(),!:;. ' church, >t!t that intergrated? Or did it have ••. ? 1 · ...•. :r·~i!.i~~rii'~~:'.~J;~ attended 0 <;. Most blacks,~far as I kn~w, St. Benedicks up here on, I would say yes/it wa: segregated in a way of speaking 1 because('!l up until that · ~ 11 d'(v _._. time, .tfp., until the 1960s) the blf!ck kidsl(ttended St. Benedicks School up/\on Central Avenue. The white kids went to what they called CTS and St. Joseph's Academy. The black kids could only go, I think, as far as eighth grade up there. They had no white sisters at all in the school. But they could only go as far as eighth grade, they usually had to transfer to the public school or if they continued their Catholic education, they had to go up to Rock Hill, South Carolina. So those who had money, or somebody who would sponsor them, ~'t:t'!fff.. . would go up to Rock Hi 11, South Carolina, that was~ the nearest black, ~· ....-=&Ji~ Catholic, "filit.higher public education, ••b':ldm!~tm~~mtt•EW·'~'They had to Rock Hill, South Carolina, to continue, you know their grade...,.. school . CRST AUG 13 A JR C: ~ ~hen did you get i nvo 1 ved in m munications . ~a= ~ Q Fort Martin? Fort Martin, right, that was iJre I }'las stationed. fronrihere, ..f_._l rst I went to as far as Utah ~ then back over to /\ Carolina for a while. + tNo.S I Yeah,f\out 'S}i~re at c4j\£}-j_ • I lii~ ~-~t" fJ\ff fS-l'CtS Fort Martin and then to North pg 5 C: were in the service? T: After you came out of school? No. ~~rt~~'l)I was in the 437, {ju_~e~of\ t~tlr~hich ~:Ji llJ"t>~k ~~ • a= I .,,.f-_ I · k d _a,i;Vv-1{(v(r ~Q,/U._ - • --'}'=1--- fo r the A1 r Force. · · .{/1J..P.Afi <::i'/'J_,~fUcrr-'- wfl'at ever they did around here. And V\ CJf(];Vvi.-vY"'-OJ~ then, after I came back home,)\'about~a year I got married~! was working as a janitor 0 s-h31 to the ThompsonRecord Company. I took the ro Ex.cm j I was luc~y enough·:to pass it)· ,.PnO. J:: ~~ C€J.-v\ \;)>.-Id~ Posto.J :;:;;;,.QJ1.AJ-'-~·cr.. .. .; SVv-o~,.I .. (1~--t---" • Q:: \/JO~ . C: So there was nothing specific that happened it~ just your desire to have what you CV(...) T: .t£ere ts: a lot of things )LGU:d.:JIM that ~"'' 7:>1>'1,fh>,} specifically that happened, I J'.flJ4B:m. you S'.e''!'A' the way they treated people around here, I mean as far as putting them in jail, for instance, when a white man killed a black woman right on, right in front of Pantry Pride. ·nw"t... . This was all during this particular time. _,,..was Adeputy sheriff by the name of Bi 11 Wade, and~ he was involved in a little gambling scheme out here. He had a little joint or whatever and bliJlck/f9l~~:i rl . (/Ut.f I , 1-- ;::..?f\f<~, went out there and gamb,led . ~ J~e pulled a 1:>i stol and killed them, 1 :.;i)'1m~" ' ' O ~.i. f·.·111v, o1 l' ~- _Jh .''( Wo '\.. r/1' 11:1.,r, . . 1-J;r rln \, ( of_; '" =' I . . 1 f I , , ,.._,, 1 t./.! J ;_... ... ..} L·-·'\.. ti ,....'1 f1 ·v 'Lr';t.:r '~'f~~,..· ' .... f ~~;;:.t~~,J.ma/.JJir. pfrr .,rfr~i c,,ko.Jr. There was fellow by the name of Sheppard, and they never wanted to arrest the -~~Y and the black fel lows0 weAe_. ~~ 1l,e_r€.~.e J.a:,.1~'\. · ~tki?.kf (\il,i~(}\/'l.fw+:ll,-_k,>. ~{...tcui)d~-ekr;f:rfind out who he was. Butl -th~ ~eatl') ~ ,~·v._,{aet( ::tG-+6\4}\ .a~Js(~or~·l}~ ittrllr1;'4~~JDM. w L-. I O..--:...:-Tut.0A-(UY~nd a 11 the blacks u}+~ ~ ~:gistered~U:lf "t~e~~; get people T to register, we did not have to much t~ouble registering around here. The only diff-erence though is that if you went to register and if you were not sharp and watching, 0-- they would automatically register you" Republican if you did not tell them that you wanted to participate in the Democratic primary. Now they would do this to you at the registrar!s o~fice. away and then WHHDi Democratic Party. So you would have to watch them. Now, I have seeru people come have to go back t/.end in a registration slip to get in the 1 , .••• "·.?I Of course the Republican Party could not participate in the l;Q;~~\8j( ~J:~~Jt:etjp~~~.;~t;J:tl!'!""l~ffF~'f.;:r;ieuu~Democra tic .-----"'~. ·". . primary. pg 6 T: The Republicans there were not strong enough to hold a primar~;RF-there was not that much competition. But in the general electio/~ you could vote either way you want' h~ . l-V /Y) Well, I guess back to 1963, ~you said that flt, i?~cfjrv·Ct--r-- ~~the NAACP, what!' was your involvement in the NAACP at that time? 10-r-t\CU\ar e.,\je ~\l~ Ot{<'rL'-D rdS OC~ Well I was a member at tliatY time and f.i!iW'il · .11 ffly"1,13ecretary ~I served on the executive board. lXCJA"t,0 Now what role did Dr. Hilling play here? Was he the head of the youth council? ~~ll.P 1 . :W~ Yes, /,_,_f®IV\\ td youfu- C.;;;ncil ._ '-ibaJ (/.AQ.•\ O.d . ..- have got NAACP chapters in most cities · .· . "' -with' mostly elderly peopl)C:he older people_,but they never had an active youth council --~~~---~~~~~~~~ He saw the need for this and at that particular time the older persons who had been in the NAACP chapters kind of underground could not let white people know what was going on and this kind of thing. These kids;;...;:.1"1..._!r- .. were seeing what was going on with the states and so rf.I ,· \\ ! flC\ forth and they were ~o get out on the street. So we took xkR advantage of this and formed a youth council. C: Was there much interaction between the college students and the youth council or was the r· youth council mostly young black kids from St. Augustine? ~;r;..n-= ,,, ... ~ \'i•v,'.;.;; 1 i 1 T: Well, ~ young black kids.,,.M.. ~ from: in the city. Oh, there were several kids from$ the school participating. ~they were willing and they participated quite ..... ' ~. ~ .. :.' a bit but afxxru1xsR quite naturally the parents drag home the meaning of the good word/ pg 7 T: )nd CJ.l?J'l'\Y the administration out at the school and they put the"""1tttJ:-Von and you get into jail C: you see. pf!:?'f{'v . ';/ When did things begin to get out of hand at least..:iC! the hostile reaction from the white connnunity? Did it happen from the first? T: No, .a:;t>: f&ici~quite natuarally we got a little resistance Xlmm to begin with1but -\"!,,. \ "e'-j vJf\""5 6-:::1 0Gr jt:> · "!f.11* thought maybe this thing C blow E::f:f ove1/a I would imagine so xirax this was on \-\ (2.£At.L '-/ their minds. Right around 1964 '11ifj1J£'ilit\heated up because we began to apply a little pressure. At this particular time we began to appeal to the head of theC'.o::P.:~~)iv(h .. v~ to~e.Bishop at that particular timet(!c;:.,,::;.~~animn~~-lllUIMi~~mSi!l!:f;i .. :£~1!;~., ~~~~~~~~- he had headquarters ... and lived in Jacksonville Beach .. We wrote 1 et t er s to him and then'..,~egan ~talking about this celebration we were supposed to have. 400th Anniversary? T: Right, : 1 ·-ya!'I&'" tat is where we began to apply the pressure. We began to write letters and we began to get the word out to the news media and so forth. We even wrote to +h-C..-<''Q . . \ · ,_ . ( . ~4• . J:il e ~tlr Jwa::geaw ~L£8Rlio. ~-&Dh;::iitlfifii:Jorganization of American States. \ 0 C\ \ (jl- d>< ... ,.'(,\f.J>· T: Right, we even wrote them because~~~~~~~~ ,, people were participatin~ c;.n c)./ 'Q in this·prograu;,-~ and word began to leak outvthat is when we began to take to the all~ streetsxxxW2xhegxRXNi:Xh and King~egan with•8#J ~·!J down in'Florida. C: Tell me about that~ow you get King to come here? Al\ ri'o,h t· • · E. T: """"!SiEiitibl Well, they were having a meeting down in Orlando, Florida. N~f-tbf exactly what the meeting I forget now HHX was but it was a big one. C: 151 c . .J-n C.,kr~/tJ-Q._,,J Cvh 1$ · I think it was a state meeting -lJ-rT-~~'\.}...>~-=o,_tJ_·_JJJv_'~~_l_•..J./V"'"'~-->' . U ; T: Right, right down in Orlando, Florida. So several of us, Hilling, myself, Billy Eubanks, my wife, about two carloads of us went down and we went to talk with him . d-. . CV\ or(~'.t-1'> i t.:£1..-l:.\of\ .Pr90.f\ ;~.tel ~ k-~ :A· about the situation.\-\e ~ ,..~-~~--- v and we were -Mt c a IS unn and IN~ -eXt · ro,;i --- ---- ---------------------- T: pg 8 ~tz\rvC1 we needed kRxp some help and ~that particular time the NAACP national chapter just ~rt- -or_i etri tcd did not believe in taking to the streets. It has always been a - :-ma Elli!~ ' b aj}:tcf..:::lccr;vq'Vi .. L.J<--Q.,. CDu-A_:x.) . outfit you know. You go to court and you wm (D:/v'-· ~ but youVdo not demonstrate et 'fly o f1e.. "s -,a:_ or you are going to get/mt and risk st 1 1g ! s- life. Now this was at that particular stage in the game. So at that particular time the NAACP sent some representatives there. We had most of our officials come here from time to time. ...wti=tmd Father who Gibson I think came here from .. · Miami and Reverend Graham(\ at that particular time~ was a big wig in the state. I remember ~ they would not turn their books over to the r\l.--_j.0'-2~.X::~~? ~J '"' D~,.A. CcJ). o L ... state. They wanted to find out whatC 1 1 a _Q!tt:P. ~the NAACP vJo..s/ state legislature 1 and they refused1 a~d~~h of them. AJ that.particular ~~~k.:.,-,.~_-'\,/$~:e±::s::t:-J.. I time they came in and tried to talk us out of it ...s., ..o,...,,,ij~l:±zi=_;;:;!J...I~' 2;~P-£~ The., OLAt:j:::> i 111~ , __y/ C: _;£;;JiN' JU!ll lihiitllf§Rl_J~1Ptil• i 1 1,~~national president of the NAACP, .. <> T: :Roy Wilkins? C: Roy Wilkins just retired. T: Yes., ,..:. C: I read something that he sort of censored Dr • 1 H~~~~ {\(/v. tJt1li\Cl)..., 5 (}(}-<-., 'l • \J~ He did. Or~ remarks. This came~uttsome moonies report1or somebody hoJ picked up a rema'f k rt\h at Helltt~W~-ov made. He said something about-./-whites were really -·- T: ' rt., d-'(' V}.;>;"\J./~,._,- (f 0. • c:: r-{\, f· 'j-t).J ,/ . 'f'-'\~ ~'O'? and we: made them pretty angry and they began to throw fire-bombs and \_Q_ Jf they began to shoot at peoplets houses and so forth. In fact they threw some right down the street. ~~Ieu i'~my sister Lilian Robinson, had Bunyan Robinson, lO; (fl rJdte., wvd ? ) her kids were the first kids to integrate the school out in--the p1~; School, hous,out there one that lived next to and they burnt up their there was a deaf fellow night.<'- That is my sister's house. Then 15'< --n-1i::- he r~name of Charlie Bronson. His kids were attending school and we were out there attending a PTA meeting and somebody set a fire in the back seat of his car and burnt up his car right there in the front of -f\'18J the school. So the whites~after they found out that we were intending to keep on . _.,.., T: C: T: pg 9 C {• ' (! ..... ( ('./ I) 1 . II I c-ffi\, C j} ,,XJ-(.f .. ,e_;\ . r../ ', .(t~f Iv- /) this thing/ a.y~ ·. v""' ~ i_.hey came to Hell'O' and Hell6rtJ focvi\ired/ and he made the remark, I' Shoot first and ask questions later if this is the way it is going to be.'" ~ i--1t.0'S '6 So when he made this remark thevmedia picked up this thing more and they sent it on s:: the wires. It is like this is what they wan~---they want~ something/and up until -_- that time we had not;~e had tried to be quiet and go about our busines~ with this ~ thing. I was working iJY ~~~Aug us tine 1 '1 - , . there o~ ), ~ · t , ~~ree t a no/one 0 1 f the reporter~~~e by a¥,s~31:rd r/:t t~~;nf:,~~-t~~ ~~J h7~~~1~i/ell wa~~!, \i~~>hj H~llb~nd what i!s going o~j\~Lb- know. i\Lo~k at, ;~is.~ .. Anq I looked1tM''SUt d rh0 e-1,,:.:cJt« .,_v bo..tn::.I the man made a remark so we had ~··vrx·c:J1)2) ff f: · '8 and we tried to assume that it was not so important but it had gone.._, like wildfire at that time. Somebody called fJ I V/. (}/\/vJ-- 0 n' c".1-1 re-of the national office) CJvx:t:X,_.. Wilkins being the man r-J.. c1J in a court~ri t:at:ed outfit;.that is when~stated that he would have no part of this. Did he ask you to remove H~ll6~ from the Youth Council? Did he go that far? 0 . +·f10;.Jf- I cannot say for sure but it was something in~ order. ~Wnw;m:et'L 6tfu:w:£~ They wanted to lift~- charter and everything else, so then that is when SCr ' ~J we turned to the ·SE , ~went down to Orlando with C.T. Vivian. T t WOI S 0 &X'li'jfL T: Williams• C.T. was the main speaker down there, King wasn't there. I think King was in his room or something. Anyway, I remember meeting with C.T. Vivian/ . Ji? and 1efi'@a. I think C.T. Vivian was the director of branches for the SC(7'or something; and we persuaded. him at that particular time ·to come and take a look here. So they sent some workers in here to begin with and they looked around and and they tho,ught ·.tha t~J~ffiiett~a r1-. they ~H\~•k . ~ trouble;/}7fiere would not be that much hostility(\ ~nly they liked what they saw would not have that much problem ~1 was that St. Augustine was promeniently Catholic, this is the birth place you know of Catholism in the United States.e. !!O we sold them on this \deo ~ ~ .......... pag 10 T: They thought this to be a dominant tourist town and some people accus/.d. us times for ruining the businesses and c;~~~ ~~" M1..t'.MI .e tourists off and so forth. at But, this was not our intentionf to begin with. Maybe there was some remarks made to organize .a~J'~f:'P'\i.asc.if.'a'fld'Z'tt~ Klu Klux Klan/1from all over the state. We had somebody from all of the United States here. Here was this fellow a~cus/ed of beating these kid-s with stones. Another fellow out of South Carolin~ ~~~~~~~1~a1e.,,~~ .~e •. died, he had a heart attack • ,,..., ~ ~ -:::~Jtmtfi.E:~yncli:~~- T:~~ey came in as organizers. This fellow out of Louisiana, he had a heart attack and died but he was supposed to come here. He was scheduled to come here, b...:a:;e Uiiii!b~!lllivi•91i~io.. pe was a big man in Louisiana .at that time/ ~a big Catholic man. ~ @'3'.f~llm+ _h.e ~alked about shutting the Catholic schools down and everything • . ·~~.: • :S- w~1fc.d iv ~'" .J- ·+h(., blod:~~;. oYJ soyrit.t He said ~~;tmd'!!~"l.i:Jl:~;~1~-€~~";:~""'~ =~~~~~~~¥i~~~~~tqJ~~~~k~~g:£,B~~· He was supposed.to come here but he had a heart attack and died right before he arrived here. We had some of everybody, a fellow who did some bumming over in Jacksonville, remember the bumming school over there, he was caught right here, he was taking a rose plant or something like that. He worked over here at mobile courtyard. See they would let all elclY\ev-i+ h 1'dc .. I and all this bad sljm'@t!: and they would come in~. these guys come in here AllJll;I JJr we had the ~ John Bird society, all of the big whigs on the John Bird Society, we had the \Lu- an o\ ~Klux Klan )left some of everytloiing that you could name here. C:~ I think the day I came by here I mentioned that I was going to talk T: c: t o 'S2-··k --~R (J~ · n d I d1. d • He will talk to you now~ d.'fitetif~_:;;r, about four or five years !!"L he wo.uld not ~talk to anybody. turns out that he talked. But he said that 1-t- 1,Nt1.sd1f\~:1 c0-n- Ju coi1h;t:-,A· I kno., ~ him, And now it L~~~~~~~~~~~ Page 11 C =-~~~lt~_::anot:.{;;e;Vli,i,i'lF,:you.;tt't'f 00t;Pmmen~~ Helling was a very militant -f~(( black, he said that at one meeting they came away shaking~ heads. This 'E T: was he and the city police chief, Stewart, saying that this fellow had all the markings of a black panther. How would you characterize him? tti !! I() 2\ No#'~ ... pefinitely not1 ~~~~~,..-was raised University, his daddy was a professor there. H~' lling finished school in Tallahassee I think he attended college.·~~ in North Carolina; ;r liffi~i!~~ I do fl,"-.J r _f'vo\'Y\ -n-1~ '-- not know whether he attended ATI or not and then'-'he went t~.?~ That is where he got he got his degree. That is where all the black doctors and ministers had to go at that particular time. We had this meeting up at the Civic Building. We were making certain demands on the city. Quite naturally when you 1-1¥ resisted autom::;=ically at that particular time you were~crazy or you.~re a bad name;. ~· _i;r~ Helling was ,.,.- a spokesma'J ;.Jo he spoke for the ~ommunity.~ tris i~ what happened• _:nytime you resisted automatically you n• (1 f.,,<_. . . were If .-f""t(UJ1 1 m'ld: ~Mt!&lilltille the Black Falcons 1 and we never had · the Black JI _C-:-:,., Falcons here. We probably could have gotten here but fori"' some reason we w~ tliril-::;} p·e xs\ s-iTJ(] f I I @know .how the ('(yr.f . .t<"~·t started. Thetent the National Guard, they sent all the Highway Patrolmen. There were supposed to have been 2000 or 1500 camped out on Butler's Beach~or something/~ somewhere between hete. (/J'IJ Jacksonville were going to invade the city of St. Augustine. You have never it in your life. T;('is was on camera in a way of speaking. And they would catch our people down there every once in a while and if wt,(2.t; f\6!..E~ they ~Veatch somebody with a knife or a gun or something they would arrest them. But one night they caught some guyf who came up from Ocala, from what the newspaper and from what I understand/they had a bushell basket of annnunition and all kinds of guns. And they put them in jail and they go out they are going to bring them up to have a hearing the guy. They turn him out. And at that time a fellow w.as living by the name of Page 12 Jim Dot. He was pretty wealthy and he owned a couple of famous ship bars. He was a millionare or I imagine he was. He was a big young fellow. That is the way that most of them are that hung out in there where Barnett Bank is now, in that lot. I understand that Dot was the man that was doing a lot of the financing in fact for the community private school that is operating right now in the YMCA building. That is one of the reasons why we are having such a zoo at the Y now. Because the Y was developed by a liberal mayor. Blacks could use the pool, blacks could use the facilities and everything, but they do not even want to do that. They are not very generous with us on the one hand, and on the other hand over there, the Y is even sponsoring a day care center for mothers in the black community. This is well and good for the black mothers to keep their children off the streets while they go out and work and this kind of thing to keep them off of welfare. I am for day care a hundred percent. We need that care, we need somebody to take care of black children, but I also feel black parents, black mothers or somebody in the community in their homes has always taken care of those black kids. Maybe there are not the best facilities in the world, but there are houses. Now all of a sudden the city cracks down, and the Y decides to put in a day care center, saying that it is federally funded. So the city cracks down, and all these people who have been keeping children are closing up. So now the Y punishes us, and they have got the day care center. They have got three to four whites up there, and some whites working, whites directing and all this kind of stuff, and in the black community that is what we were doinq for them. In the mean time the Y is housing this private school. To me, you cannot serve two masters. If you are going to feed me with the right Page 13 hand, feed her with the left hand. We have had a heck of a to do with the Y about this thing. We need a lot more blacks on the bJard of directors. We have got black members at the Y and all this, but there are no blacks in the policy-making outfit at all. If you have no black participation out there, you are going to limit black kids to an alley as a place to go. We do not have anything private, we do not have a private swimming pool. This is the only place we can go where we do have things like that. We deserve to have something besides a softball team, and they have some pretty nice things out there, weights, and softball, and things like that, for everybody, and I think it is really pretty down there. They have tennis courts and basketball courts, and all that kind of thing. C: The William Kinnard(?) jolt that was riding through the black community, did this happen much during this period of time that you know of? T: Sure. I mean this was common practice. C: There were nearly a hundred of them. T: We knew that someone was framing , and they knew it. And then we tried to talk. This was during the time when everybody knew about it. Maybe that week, there was something else that came up. I think his wife was in the school system here. He had two small girls, and they had a big old bJx of dolls at the house, up in Scottsville, I believe. For some reason, I called, or someone called, and told him that they were out riding that night. We had pretty good communications, word of mouth, phone, or someone would get out there in the back yard and holler. I saw the cop pass. Well, they would take this car, we were told, and we believed it, and I still believe it, and they would take this car and they would paint different colors on different days. It was mostly black, Page 14 and they would put a white top on it or a black top, or a black top on a white body, anything on the same car. And this was the car they were operating from, this car and a pickup truck. Now, Roosevelt James, a fellow who lives out on Palmer Street, a fellow who has not been able to get a plumbing licence, they stopped at his house several times to try to find Brady(?). Now Brady never stayed there, they thought he did. They would pass there, just ride up and down the street all night long. So one night they stopped at his house, and they were all out there winding through the rooms. They came by in this pickup truck and when they did, they had a number sixty-eight, he did not want to kill anybody, bird shots in the shotgun, and they unloaded in the squad in his house, and when they did, he just ran out in the street, and man, he did not have his trousers on! And he f---ed with these guys, so what happened, there are these men there, they are out there investigating, so Brady.(?) goes to the school to see if his wife is there, and they see a pistol in her pocket, and they arrest her for carrying a weapon, but they do not catch the guy who is in the truck, they do not do anything with him. We have got the tag numbers, we turn in the tag numbers, we have seen who we identified, we know who is doing it and everything else. We always had to be on the alert to go to sleep at night. So a couple nights before then it had been down the road where Goldie Eubanks lived on the corner. Now, Goldie was very outspoken, and folks could tell he had been there for a number of years from South Carolina, and everybody seemed to like Goldie, until Goldie began to make I I some demands, and then he was a scoundrel. One night my brother-in-law was in the house, and he heard the dog's noise Page 15 out, and he ran out to see what it was about, or ran to the door, and when he did, they took one of these old flambeaux off the street where the city had been doing some work, this was before they had these automatic blinkers, they had little flambeaux, kerosene flambeaux or whatever they worked on, and set it in the back seat of his car sitting in the front yard. So he either had a choice of trying to get his gun and shoot at the guys or putting out his car. So he ran to put out his car and they disappeared by the time the police came about two weeks later, that is when they set the house on fire, but in the meantime, he then was talking on the phone, I do not recall exactly who it was, someone was talking on the phone to his wife, and she got up off the divan, she must have been seven or eight months pregnant, and the divan was across from the door almost to the back of the room. She got up off this divan and answered the phone, and that was the only thing. These guys went out there and stopped this car in front of their house and riddled that house with bullets. It looked like they had machine guns or high-powered rifles. Some of them went clean through the house, literally almost just shot the door clean off the hinges, and she happened to be in the next room, otherwise she would have gotten killed. They killed the boxer dog. He came to the door and was stepping around when he heard the commotion out there. Somebody even saw this and everything, and nobody ••• C: That must have been, I guess, when he made that comment, about arming himself. T: Yes, right. It brings back the time when we had a young fellow get shot right in that center, just some fellow was walking down the street, and he got shot with a .22 rifle right through the heel of his foot. Page 16 C: Why did they go out to the Klan meeting? T: They did not actually, I was supposed to go on with them, they did not actually attend the Klan meeting. Now we had some very good, liberal white people that would inform us, some local people from here and some ministers that had come up from Daytona who we trusted who were at our meetings and would keep us informed and so forth, because we wanted to stay one step ahead of them. So they had been attending those Klan meetings, and they decided that night how we were going to find Jenkins. Well, they were supposed to come by for me, but I do not know what I was on, but anyway they did not come by, I did not go. They were having the Klan when I was out there, and we heard all the time remarks about what all was going on, and Jenkins' stoning the common men out there and whatever else was going on at that particular time. So they went out on the road, out on U.S. 1, and there is a bowling alley right across from the shopping center, that is where they were, on back down there behind the little grade school that is there now. So they just rolled out there out of curiosity to see what was happening, and they went down there and were just standing around, and when they turned around there were so many cars coming from the Klan meeting, they got in this lane of cars that was turning right going back in the woods. Well, these guys were just waving people on, waving them on, you know. So they got in this particular lane, traffic was so heavy from what I was told that I do not think they could get out of it or something, and they attempted to turn around and come back out. Well, after they got down in there, somebody passed the word around, and all these guys had CB's during that time, and we did not have any, and they got down there and they poked him right on down there. This Page 17 is what happened when they discovered they drove him all over the woods while they said the words, "Niggers, niggers, niggers," and this was the cry at that particular time. They pulled him onto the ground, and pulled him onto the stage, and they whipped him. It was awful. You should have seen it, it was really something terrible. I do not know if you have seen any pictures of it or not, but it was something terrible. C: I have not seen any pictures of it, no. T: And then the local doctors did not want to wait on him. They really tried to, I do not know, they told Hilling he needed a dentist. They wanted to break him up, they tried to break his hands, pulling his hands off, his fingers, pulling between his fingers, and then they were going to set him on fire. They really knocked him for one once. C: Some of these white people, did they get the sheriff out there? How did the sheriff know about it? T: The sheriff was there. He was there all the time, he and all his deputies, I mean this was common. The sheriff was, in a lot of cities in the South the sheriff was in the Ku Klux Klan. You do not know who it is under those sheets, ---, you do not know who is in there. Now he is working out there today and tomorrow, but at night he is out there under the sheets. So, he swears that, "I do not know," and so some of these people who were attending this meeting saw what was going on and they slipped away and called. Or they patrolled, I do not know, maybe he was there, I do not know. He was accused of being there, some of the people thought he was there. So they went out there, and they went to get some gasoline, they were going to set him on fire. Page 18 C: Yes, I remember that time. Is it true that they took Dr. Hilling and Houser and the other fellow over to Jacksonville Hospital to protect them, or did they take them over there because they could not get treated at Flagler? T: They could not get any treatment over there. You know, we had a black list, we might want to call it, over there at Flagler. Some of the doctors would see you out there picketing or see some of your family out picketing and tag a label on you. Everybody here knows everybody, and the local police would take pictures. You would be out there picketing, and they would ride by in the car, and everybody would take your picture. So they had you on at the clinic and everything else in town. I mean, you went in a place, and they would look, and they identified you, and you are one of those smart guys or whatever the case might be, and so you just do the best you can to go somewhere else. C: Now, these doctors, many of them were members of the John Brooks(?) Society. T: I would think so, yes. We definitely would think so. They even, I do not know about now, but on this radio news, not WFOY(?), another radio station, every Saturday morning they would have a call-in, some conservative poll, some guy working I guess out in Texas or something, was it not? Right. C: Yes, I cannot remember what the fellow's name is, but ••• T: I can, Hunt. Yes, he was a millionaire or something. He ran the program out of Texas, and his was the only program such as this or whatever the case might be, every Saturday morning on this radio station, to keep people informed of what was going on and so forth, and this fellow was Page 19 highly conservative and so forth, and the government was listening. We had just gotten that to tie, in a way of speaking, city and county against the federal government at that particular time, especially on the conservative programs and so forth. C: Well, I guess that brings us into sixty-four. T: Well, we had meetings with the city. We tried to sit down and iron out our problems. We wanted to talk with them. I knew the guy who was city manager at that time, and we had big meetings set up with the City. C: Was that Barrier? Was Barrier city manager? T: I believe he was, I believe it was Barrier, I think it was. And all the black men used to come, and the city commission and some of the county representatives and so forth, and we would go up there, and there he is sitting up there with a tape recorder. So quite naturally, I mean we do not want to talk to no tape, we want to sit across the table, and they refused to talk with us. So this is the thing that had gone ~~~~~~- with you all now. We had some kids that did some picketing and sitting in. We look back on it now, but at this particular time, they grabbed them, I think, and then put them in jail, and after they put them in jail, they sent them to reformatory school. C: Oh, that was the two young girls and the two young boys. T: Right, right, they were on the corner we are on now, and he has not been exactly himself since then. This was a hell of an ordeal for these kids twelve and thirteen years old, and we had a heck of a time getting them out. It took us six months or eight months to get these kids released from reformatory school. C: That was an incredible development. Page 20 T: I am telling you now, we have been through the mill. My wife was one of the first, she and probably Jenkins I would say, were the first black adults to go to jail here. Mostly the kids were doing the serving. And the kids were easy for it. We kept them ornery. They were welldressed and everything else, and they were pretty good, and they would go in and sit at the lunch counter, and the whites did not want blacks, and when the blacks were at the lunch counter, and you were open, you would have to serve them, so they would cut out the lights, and all the waiters and waitresses would just walk out, and they would close the door, so they would lock up the place almost, lock the inside. C: Shelley argues that the blacks would lay all over the floor. Is there any truth to that? T: We did have a lie-in. These are the only people who made any time in jail besides these kids, we did have a lie-in, and we did not have any protection to that. This happened at St. George Pharmacy. This only happened one time. A young lady, well, they dropped all these things off the records, I think she spent about thirty days in jail. We had offered her an alternative, she teaches school now down south, and so forth. Now, they will say that the kids who participated, they went on to make them criminals, but this is a lie. Now I can tell you a lot of kids who participated are people who are teaching in the public school system. Some of them are principals and assistant principals and all this kind of thing. They went on to continue their education. C: Shelley would have you believe that this took place all the time. T: I know, I know, I can tell you exactly how many of them there were, four, I think, or five of them. There was only one place this took place, and Page 21 that was St. George Pharmacy. This was the only place this took place. C: How did you get all those people in from the North, those college kids, and Mrs. Peabody? T: Well, these people were interested in, this was the hardest place in the nation at that particular time, because, you know, you had your freedom riots and everything else, and these people followed King, they believed in King. So, actually, we wrote some letters to some fraternities, some white people had come here, some liberal-thinking people, some people who were staying out, but we had contact with the University of Florida, we knew somebody over there. This was Dr. Jones, they eventually fired him over there. And the Homily(?) brothers, I remember them from the University of Florida. C: David Chalmers came over. T: Yes. Homily(?), I think they were from Daytona. And we had a lot of northern students there. I cannot think of some of the names. Some of them lived in housing with us much of the time. Butt Dr. Jones, I remember him specifically. He got arrested over there, and boy, that was really big news when his wife found out about it, that they had locked him up, she called me long distance that night in Gainesville, and my wife went to jail with him, she was having quite a time of it, and eventually they fired Dr. Jones from over at the University of Florida. He fought this thing, he fought this thing for years, and they did spot him everything in the last four or five years, I believe it was. C: Now, when Mrs. Peabody came, and some of those ministers from the North, and those college kids, then the press seemed to come, the New York Times, and the ABC cameras and everything. Page 22 T: Well, the press was following King here when he came here. King was something new. Nolx>dy had ever seen this before. This was almost like Martin Gandy(?) you know, the black passion resistance. You offered your body as a living sacrifice, you did not fight back. Now, the northern kids fought them back. Leeland(?) fought them back. This was annihilating women, you fought the white man, but we could not shoot, we could not buy any ammunition, we could not buy twenty-two shells, we could not buy no guns, we could not buy anything around here. We do not have no violence. This was the only way we could do it, and this was King who persuaded us to do it. I bet that Leeland(?) did not like to go along with his ideas, but he had to, because this was King's organization and everything, and he did not want any shots fired. C: After the Easter protests, things seemed to quiet down from then until May, and then they got really hot. What was happening in that stretch of time? Do you remember? That would be from the end of March, actually it would just be the month of April, really. T: Well, during that particular time, King had several commissions, made up of citizens in other places. We had to stop and revamp. We had to get money and everything to get people out of jail. This was, I think, the first time my wife went to jail, I believe, alx>ut $250 I think, in fee charges, conspiracy, delinquency and minor trespassing out at the Warners(?) or something. The next time, I think, was $500 or something like this, or $1500. C: Fifteen hundred, that is very high. T: Well, and the next time, it went up to alx>ut $7,500 or something like this apiece on fee charges. So then we had to revamp, and we had to reorganize Page 24 We would sit at Leeland's house or somebody's home. We would meet in various homes with the executive board, and all these attorneys would meet. Now, we had pretty good legal advice, from CUsters(?), Guy Simons, Earl Johnson and so forth. And all these lawyers were legal defense, and also Civil Liberties Union. One time we had thirty-seven attorneys in there. C: What were the demands being made? Do you remember the specifics? T: Integrate the lunch counters, this was one of them. Jobs were one. C: I remember that one. T: All right. We wanted to integrate the beaches. We even talked about the churches. C: Plus foods. T: Foods, this was one of the main ones. Cleaning supplies. Fire department. C: One of the big things that Shelley and other whites would claim is that percentage-wise, there was a comparable number of blacks employed by the city to equal the percentage of blacks in St. Augustine. T: Yes, if they pick and choose. Right now, you look at the blacks, and I mean, we have been negotiating with the city right now. In fact, we have some demands up there right now to upgrade blacks, of trying to open up a school or something, so these blacks can move up in their positions. Now we have got one, maybe two black farmers out there at the present time. One fellow by the name of Jones who is in charge of the food, who puts the orders in or something like this, he has got the highest position as a black in the city work force. We do not have any blacks. You go uptown and go up the the city building and find out how many black workers there Page 26 out there twenty-five or thirty years, and he is still patrolling. Fred Waters' salary is below the lowest-ranked white patrolmen who walk. But I imagine his salary is pretty comfortable now, because they have been negotiating contracts, he had to gain approval. It is the union, you know, they have been unionized. We have never had but one black policeman, but they have given those tests, but what happened is this city has its own civil service rules. They are not statewide, and they are not covered. In this city, I mean you make up your own civil service rules. You have got a civil service board that consists of about four or five people, who represent the police department, there is one from the fire department, and I think two or three civilians on it. All these are white people. All right, now they give a civil service exam whenever there is an opening, and if you take the exam, then they have the right to pick the man who they think is best qualified, best suited for the job, as far as I know now, maybe I am wrong, and then this fellow is picked. Now we have had people who have passed the exams, but I admit they did not go to school, and you stay on there until the time falls and there is another opening, after you take the exam again. This is the way they do it, they do not keep stagger slips. C: When King came here and started mobilizing the black community, although as you are pointing out, it was mobilized, when he came here and started holding his meetings, what sort of things did the SCLC expect from the black community? T: Nothing but cooperation, we had told them that we did not have any money. We did not have no anything. C: He just wanted to get as many people on the street ••• Page 27 T: On the street, this was his strategy, to get as many people on the street, fill up the jails if necessary, just offer your bodies as living human sacrifice. Let people see us on the outside, what they are doing to us. See, we tried to keep this thing in tact. I have seen newspaper reporters beaten something terrible there, their cameras snatched and all this kind of stuff. I have seen even some reporters from I believe Sweeton(?) or someplace uptown, I was working up there one day, and some kids went across to Woolworths. They went into the Munson(?) and they locked the door, the Munson specifically, and they walked across the park, the play market, over to Woolworths. And once they got into Woolworths, they guy, Hansen, who was a Holiness minister, he was a deputy sheriff at that time, he arrested these newspaper cameramen, because they had followed these kids, and they had tried to get a piece of the action. He claimed that one of them had turned his camera on and hit him, or hit somebody. He knows better, surely it was accidentally, so he put the man in jail. See, every night, at our tour, we would have a strategy, and we would have something different every night, and we would just try to sit there and iron out, and figure out what was going to be everybody's reaction, how you would react to this thing. The day that the kids went in the pool, this was all planned out. We had these rabbis coming up. They were young rabbis, and they arrested Drew Munson(?). So at ten o'clock the next morning, Dr. King would be down on the seawall, he was there, and we got these girls, they came in from Savannah, Georgia and were good swimmers. We did not have any girls down here who were good swimmers. These were all good-swimming girls. So now when we dive up there, you are going to arrest this knight. They go up Page 28 there, and they arrest Drew Munson. Everything is going, these are all white people. Nobody pays any attention to them. So they arrest them, they arrest all the rabbis, they get all the young rabbis, and they arrest them. So the next morning at ten o'clock they had on their bathing suits, and we had a car arrive up there at ten o'clock. Everything is going very precisely. The car arrives at ten o'clock, and when they arrive at ten o'clock, immediately the police were almost right there. They were all uptown, and they had four all-days going, and these girls jumped right out of the car and jumped right in the pool. The rabbis jumped in the pool, and that was everybody in the pool, and you know that they are going to react. You know this white man is going to react to this thing, because he cannot stand it. He does not want this thing to happen. King was over there on the seawall. They were so busy watching these girls, they do not hardly pay attention. Some of the cameras go over to King, and some of the staff sit there on the seawall. They were sitting, all of them, right there waiting. When the action takes place, they want to see their reaction. A lot of people say that King was sitting back. No, he was not, he was right there on the seawall. Someone could even have pushed him over on anything, or whatever. You could have shot him, anything you wanted to do to him at that particular time, and then this when this policeman, a fellow by the name of Henry Bennett, he jumps out of the police car and tells them to come out, and they do not come out, and he just cannot stand it any longer, so he jumps over in his uniform. C: Is that when Watson threw that acid in the water? T: Well, maybe the same day he threw the acid in the water. The next day, no, they put alligators in the pool, but we did not want to go to the pool Page 29 that morning, we had something else to do the next day. Right, the next day or so we went down to St. Augustine Beach. We stayed my wife back there. She said she did not swim, so she was not going down on the beach. And these guys were working at Fairchilds, and they came right through the gate, and they let them off in some kind of way or other, and they had all these axhammers in the trunks of these cars, and they passed them out down there, and we chopped some wood. 'Ihe axhammers, boy, they worked some kids pitifully down there. A young white woman, I never will forget, I cannot think of her name, but she would be walking around with broken bones. Another boy, we had to send this one on back home, they had beaten him so much, and then that boy had a concussion; and he wanted to stay, but we just said he just could not afford to stay, we sent him back home. We had a lot of other white kids who came, we had a boy who came who was tending flowers, I think, I forgot. Gary Oswald was his name, he stayed here with us. Gary just could not take it. He got sick. Man, he was so scared, he just stayed in the house. He would just stay in the house, lock the house. Usually he was in the house. He would just lock the house all day, because this thing lit him up. I mean, all right, we had been accustomed to it all our lives. We were accustomed to police jumping out of their cars, a blackjack in one hand and a pistol in the other hand, and knock us upside the head. We were accustomed to that, we were accustomed to white people who walk uptown, and you would have tipped your hat and said, "Mister," or something, or whatever the case might be, and he would kick you in the pants or something, because nobody is saying anything about it. Well, all right then, this was the thing that we were rebelling against. Page 30 C: Why the night marches? Why not other marches? T: It was the only way we thought it was going to be more effective. See, you had to take your tactics. C: To get publicity. T: Right, right. We were taking our tactics, and the general organizations, service organizations, whatever you want to call them, began to buy dogs, the Kiwanis Club, the Rotary Club, and I guess the Knights Clubs, I am not sure, and so forth, the Daughters of the American Revolution, and all this kind of thing. They would buy these German shepherds, and they would surprise you. You do not see the shepherds around there now. C: They bought those for the police department? T: Yes, they bought them, or the dogs were donated by the police department. C: Oh, somebody came ••• T: Yes, that is where some of them came from. The police and the city bought some, and they donated some. You do not see, we have got the same black people living right here that lived here before, and you do not see any dogs. They hardly use one. Now, with the drug problem we have got, they will not even bother to buy any dogs to find the drugs now. C: What was it like going downtown? Were the police there? Did they try to stop the whites from pounding the heads of the blacks and the other whites who were marching with them? T: I will tell you, the first night march we had, the first one we had was in October at the Lutton and Brown Ladies' Center(?), we caught them by surprise. We left Washington street, and we got on down to Dole Street, and the police station at that time was on Hipolica(?) Street, the police and fire departments were on Hipolica Street. They have got a parking lot Page 31 there, between the state board and Thirtieth Street. We walked down there, walked flat up to the van, and when they did see us, they did not even know what was happening, and there were a lot of cars that passed us on the street, and a lot of whites immediately armed themselves at that particular time. ~~~~~~~~~- This was the first night march I had ever participated in, when we were at the Lutton and Brown Ladies' Center(?). Then, after them, in 1964, the next one we had, the first one with King therefore, we got right there in the Lightly(?) Museum parking lot. My boy was a little boy then, about three or four years old, but the police were still going to stop us, on Cardillo(?) Street. So we left Cardillo(?) Street, right in front of where city hall is, or the county courthouse rather. We came over this big rock, and c. T. asked if we could have a prayer, and he and Jose and the rest of them got to get it together, still while we were stopped, right on the corner of King(?) and Cardillo(?) Street. So it was debated, "Do not go on, we do not know what they are going to do to us." So we said, "Let us have a word of prayer, let us thank the same Lord." So we did, we stood and had a word of prayer. This was something familiar to black people, black people are family prayers. Even the rusty ones checked on, because you do not hide the expression for the good Lord to do something, for somebody to help us. We sent the boys back, we said, "Send the kids back." We decided we were going tonight, so we went. This time we caught them by surprise, but after that, boy, they would be militant. You could go up there in the city, and at night they would have all the benches and chairs and things that they could find, and they would have them all around the place blockading us. There were people running in reels, and they would Page 32 be loaded. These guys would have bricks, they had bicycle chains, they had lead pipes, they had some of everything, and we had people come rank us in the head and so forth, and tomorrow night they would be right back. C: Did you get any protection from the police department until the judge ordered them to protect you? T: No, this, is what they wanted, they wanted to stop this thing, they did not care, anything to stop them, kill them, beat them, anything. C: How about the city fathers there, the mayor, the commissioner and the city manager, were they doing anything to try and negotiate the problem, or get the police to enforce the law? T: No. Well, yes, they were enforcing the law, that was the law at that time, segregation was the law. This is what they were doing, geting the police to enforce the law, segregating, keeping the niggers in their place. C: Did you get any cooperation at all from the business community after you really began to •.• T: There were one or two people. For instance, a fellow had a shop, Friendship, or the Loving Shop, or something like that, down on St. George Street, Mr. , down right here. He was there at this ~------~ particular time, I think he taught a Sunday school class at one of the Methodist churches, and they ran this man out of town. Last thing I knew of him, he was in Ocala working at the Holiday Inn. I have seen him since that time. the state senator at that time, he spoke out against it, he thought it was wrong. We were at the college, in ----- history at Flagler College, I took a course, and they went by and broke Page 34 Jacksonville, because here, Judge Matthews was giving us hell. Weinberger, we were kind of shocked at him, he did the interview, and Meniacle, we thought he would be sympathetic with our case, but we had the first store cases in the city, and people would look at those. Next, we went to the local courts, the county courts, and Matthews, oh man, he has never gotten over this thing.
National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) -- American Broadcasting Company (ABC) -- Bi-Racial Committee -- Florida Highway Patrol -- Florida Memorial College -- John Birch Society -- Ku Klux Klan -- New England Group -- National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) -- Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC) -- St. Augustine Four -- United States Air Force -- Lilian -- University of Florida -- Y.M.C.A. -- Kiwanis Club -- Knights Club -- Rotary Club -- United States National Guard -- American Civil Liberties Union -- Home of Robert Hayling -- Butler Beach, Fl. -- Florida Memorial College -- Ocala, Fl. -- St. Augustine Beach, Fl. -- St. Benedict School -- St. George Pharmacy -- St. Joseph's Academy -- Tallahassee, Fl. -- Savannah, Ga. -- Savanah State College -- Rock Hill, S.C. -- Pantry Pride -- Orlando, Fl. -- Flagler College -- Lutton & Brown's Lady's Center -- Woolworth's -- Integration of Monson Pool -- Bombing -- Civil Rights March -- Desegregation of St. Johns County Schools -- Florida Spring Project of the SCM and SCLC -- Easter Invasion -- Klan Assault on Robert Hayling -- Lie-in -- Night March -- Picketing -- Police Brutality -- Sit-in -- St. Augustine Quadricentennial Celebration -- Wade-in -- Drive-by Shooting
Metadata URL:: http://civilrights.flagler.edu/cdm/ref/collection/p15415coll1/id/1045
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