- Collection:
- Civil Rights Library of St. Augustine
- Title:
- Hamilton Upchurch, Frank Upchurch : Transcribed Interview
- Creator:
- Upchurch, Hamilton
Upchurch, Frank
Colburn, David - Contributor to Resource:
- Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, University of Florida
- Date of Original:
- 1978-01-25
- Subject:
- Civil rights--United States--Florida
- People:
- Upchurch, Hamilton
Upchurch, Frank
Colburn, David R.
Brock, James, 1922-2007
Bryant, Farris, 1914-2002
Collins, LeRoy
Davis, L. O.
Hayling, Robert Bagner
Kennedy, John F.
Kinard, William D., -1963
King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968
Lamonson, Droco James
Puryear, Royal W.
Pope, Noel
Stewart, Burgess
Wolfe, H.E.
Wright, Thomas A. - Location:
- United States, Florida, 28.75054, -82.5001
- Medium:
- transcripts
- Type:
- Text
- Format:
- application/pdf
- Description:
- Interview with Hamilton Upchurch and Frank Upchurch, local St. Augustine citizens. The Upchurches discuss life in St. Augustine before and after the '64 movement. They discuss St. Augustine's tourism industry, white responses to the Cvil Rights Movement, personalities related to the movement and general facts about life in St. Augustine.
CRST.A 3A Subject: Mr. Hamilton Upchurch, Frank Upchurch Interviewer: DA v1]) Co/£'-tn.N 1/25/78 sj I : U: ~ \ vJ '"'~J'- l ){-~1'l,\ I guess, basically, VJ ~was with you, and your family. How long you and your family have been in St. Augustine. We've got,H (A"""- ~-v <:J.L AtA]"'-~l-1r1-t.. 1..J 171 .. ,S itt'J 4 -tkt(t.__ ti~~-·They were sprinkled about town, and I think its because of its age. That was were servants lived, behind the better houses. And I can name three or four places in the community, and as people's ability to have servants stopped, they continued to live in harmony, almost as unsegregated 1 s ~ f'/, ql""~ type of community. Which I think~~~~~~~~-' at that time, for that size community. -}J,.tlf F: I think it was too. I've never seen another community_;:...-.t-t- had such a pattern of residential desegregation I: But besides race, is there anything else that exibited southern tradition, so to speak, gave examples of southern traditions. Was, was the pace - · ~ C>,__,....:=:, -"""'== ? You always hear about the I~~'- = pace of the ..wfri:1:.e being leisurely. r I .ri n~ rAc<' <>t" I :12 ., .. H\$. JL U: :ud\.-e-wfta-:t-?- In other words, 1()1'2.Q..., - air con di tioning.1 "'The people who were fairly well off all worked in the Many of the shops in St. Augustine closed in the summertime. The major hotels closed. They would close, and went to Michigan, and CR ST. A 3A sj page 3 other places in the East. They had summer shops there, that was their skill at work. 5lovis ~ ~. And consequently things pretty well slowed down. For example, our Sunday school let out in the summer, just like regular grade . r ' I {- & Ji-J -It> 1-vu11.lS.{- -f:~f)j)QJ school let out in the summer. U?"'"'{lt>l'r01 • \"(. · F: Things really slowed up in the summer. In winter, we would be packed. It was a complete reverse. I: Was there any social hierarchy? Some, when you read about the old southern communities, there was sort of the, the vermin, uh, professional business community who formed the entire social hierarchy in the community, was there that? U: No, I don't think so. I: Yet, yet, interesting enough, your father came here, and he, he, obviously, there must have been some real opportunity because he became very active and influential in his, in his own career. U: He was successful as an attorney. I think the, there was much more social class then, than in other periods. Your professional types and some business types, and then those that were, uh, married or inherited money, and didn't work, formed a social 5-tnA ~c._ ~, and then there were ~~;;00 ,........,,.., 0 C>..J"=/' ... ,,(btV° And it was much more stilted when he used to work. For example, my mother never referred to her next door neighbor as anything other f\,_ (',\2 L \5 1t-) than Mrs., and Mr. Today, you know this backyard part~, and you're running over there borrowing a cup of sugar, and whatever. But, when I grew up, although we were not picky people, but they refer to each other as Mr. and Mrs. He worked the rail; ~" .c~.Jv;~ fl. w I'\.. A; 1•., , \"' '1 c ri ..no-t: wlnle he :was ..a:way •. Nobody felt,,.· and we went to the same church. But, were great people. Their children o.."'J- 1'-"'t hri0 ·fl,,1'1_ A"'° J.:. CR ST.A 3A sj °"n_ t sfi II page 4 school friends today. But, it was that formality, and that is a southern tradition.. Along that same line, these are things I remember as a child. There were certain people that uh, many of the wives did not work, that were among my mothers friends. And the style was to have tea, to dress to the ±tc+l in the afternoon, and you could call on friends, make a formal call, where you wore hats, and gloves, and you were seated by a maid, and left your calling card if the lady of the house was not there. And, we did that, or you sat around in the afternoon, fully dressed, awaiting calls 'by others on you. Again, a custom. I: Uh, as you were brought up, were you aware of any racial problems at all in this community? U: No, nothing prior to World War. II. HA,Lft.l{:r I: How about after the war? Uh, say before this .fellow Ha-1-6)' came here, were there, were there any difficulties, not so much was there any violence, but, I guess that what I'm trying to ask, is was it apparent that things were building towards, say '63~h64? ~ NV-.' '.:> Y'/\ '"' l) In~ U: Ye ah. · [ wo._l l e;..__? In retrospect. For example, we had a colored college here, called Florida A Baptist, a black Baptist school, that, uh, It 1r.HIV'+- ON __ • a few years on back. That school was having, before the war, and after the war, was totally segregated, totally from the black students. But they were, as I look back on it now, and then the references to them, the administration and faculty at that time /:,/o.-c,,k L._ was, they were pushing tteabl:"e .•.. An that, they were endeavoring to get black-white, uh, contact through programs t{_Ju,_~., A,.,"\) <;"o -hii.:?.:ll. ,--- CR ST.A 3A sj page 5 I : They'd put on a musical program, or something, and always invite white business leaders, and you would go. ----------~&e~Then, after the program wasn't totally /2~~ ~ fhov..t.l+I a lot of the segregated~mr~~~~~~~~~~~nobody b~ anything aJoDvd-~1t e-f value': But, other than, the reference, occasionally to a black as being a P'· ~s." +1 pr. aware of pa ob krcs 1 n..ert/(t 1 ·) I think I was not lu,1h { Ji...':>./- b(!i}.otJ_L. _. _.. \_-{_A_~- -====--__o_ c._tt~_n._~·_·t_. _ How about there was a fellow who's now over in Gainesville, a Called ['116'~~ c ~ Negro fellow, I ~ .. ,....,..::> (;J111c~'~ r· ~ __. He was minister here. I have talked to him, he claimed a lot for himself, and I'm not quite honestly sure what to believe, in terms 0£.i sort of {Vt.G R..o mobilizing the .J..egal community. But, I was wondering if you were aware of his presence at all. You might not have been involved in any of that, but if you were . U: I knew a lot of the names .:of, but I was not aware of it. There was no overt actions to try to break down any of the segregated +n,rr"rfrmv; pi'l1~c. Iv l9&~.) "16;" . ..μ.osl:-t~, I can see. I was just I : very , and if there was any, it was one -------------~ or two individuals .that were particularly But, not in any particular portion In other words, Kl~"' o-.M("-. IA':> the p-hrn was not ~ The re was not , 1+- 0 ..,,._/\_.,. 0 _._.6'--'-....._.. ,/"_\, .,.,---"'=""'------·~---_ .. pre-World War II, I was not aware of any plan of action, I'm sure they had an organization, but it wasn't called on to do the ~rLeA+·J. Well, that fits with the picture that I know. C1et's put this a -- ... -------·----"1. little close~}:: "" 1c,•v)pL.o..,t] U: ~ut it right here if you want to. Put it on the desk if you'd like.:J I: You were active, as I recall, in the Chamber of Commerce, was that CR ST.A 3A sj page 6 correct? U: I : Were you, uh, president in '64, or '65? U: Probably, I don't have these facts. I: Yeah, I think it may have been '64. I was just, uh, as president, what specifically was your role in the 'commerce? What function? ? u: Did you have ... Well, President of Chamber of Commerce was just a one year term, and you had an executive director, presided at meetings, and most of your policy is pretty well set. The Chamber of Commerce, that~ really a misnomer. ) Its more tourist than merchant. The Chamber of Commerce, although it works toward the industry, and other things of that nature, but it~ more tourist oriented than anything else, it~ more supported by tourism, or tourist attractions, so, I can't, other than try to get additional members. I was not aware of any particular programs underway at that time. I: Were you actively soliciting new'busin~ss for St. Augustine~ trying to attract a small business or co~p~nA1toiJ U: Subcommittees of the Chamber were working in that area, especially tourists. I understand its all volunteer, with busy people. A real small staff, that pretty well operated the Information Center, and Executive Director, and the secretary, c,._p,JQ f>1VS1Ncn. 1 /IJ0v--1r<.1~.., ~J_ o..'H-i:.vr-p1* ~.,_, run~ down things. I: Did the, uh, was the Chamber aware of the racial problems in '63, was it involved in '63? '63 they, Hailing~ started the sit-ins, and then the white fellow, William Canard was, was killed in the fall. And Hailing, for some reason, got himself out of~his ~Ian meeeting) Was the Chamber aware that CR ST.A 3A sj this thing might somehow get out of hand, or did it just see that as a local problem? It might just <;1""mel-'2 , quiet down. U: I think at that time, they attributed the problems to a , an individual, on the local level. And, I thought~·~ ------ c./ c:> '-" " along this line. I'm not conscious of having any thoughts But I think the general concensus was, there was I: Yeah. Well, I suppose maybe I oughta ask, did you know Hailing, other, did you ever meet with him? U: No. I: Uh-huh. But did you, but you got the sense, definately, that he was responsible for much of the problems of '63 and '64. U: That's right, I got the impression that he was a leader at the time. And he saw a great deal of, detected some unrest, but no way to mobilize it. And, there was a movement, I'm sure tiTat, ------ a counter-movement within the black community, we've always let on great here, let's don't make waves. And then there was a militant type that wanted to make waves, based on some I: You know, it seems to me, and I, I don't know if you can accurately reflect on this or not, but it seemed to me that Hailing had support from the College. Support among some young Negro kids, who were at the high school, and a few, what seemed like a very few older Negro citizens who lived here. Am I at all accurate in this~ /at least this, I've seen it through the records of U: It's probably accurate. I: Um-hmm. U; Of course, the black community in St. Augustine had been I - I CR ST. A 3A sj page 8 I think our ratio-was low, for Butler County ~~~~~~~~~~~ I think its something like twenty percent. That may not be an accurate figure. I had it So"" tv-1~ ;...., ~) V"'' WP +t~+ tlnA-'~ ~be.""".+ P.16.lt"I 4,..,,1::1 tlHn "': r..: '.(.,-. ... -0 ihe state average is maybe ~or~ercent. ,...A((,L But, I got the impression,.~ have seen figure~ that the ratio of black to white had been 1e.f.f.1N6 9ne~hfL cJ+bu\A~~ bf~c .. A1."> h~,l btc..i j111N(,. down, in numbers. Some because there was no industry type, no machinization of the agriculture, and no industry types of jobs. r: Yeah, we' re smaller, but within a whole lot 3 VV\~lkh.... its eighteen, St. Augustine, at that time, when state-wide it was l.i..1. 't{ ltt.. tv. ... ~~ tNq f't1:_ ,~ ........{ -- 21. 8, almost 22 percent. But I think you're right, I think it ~ d.e c/1~1,...r;. - was de-fined because of the nature of St. Augustine being a tourist ,-uJ. Ce.11.rh.fL, industrial relat.e-d jobs. One of the things that kind of baffled me, is that I see St. Augustine as a real progressive community. You could, just because it had a history of racial segregation, to me, does not mean its not a progressive community. It was caught up in its history, it had its pattern of residential segregation that seemed to pull to t-h€- . c._ rn..u~ /e.,..,..._ with race relations. It had, the community had begun to voluntarily desegregate its schools, and I wondered, how did it, how did this thing, how do you, why do you see it engulfing St. Augustine the way it did? It was almost chaos in '64. U: Well, I think you had a small, very militant counter C...oc.-v::..c:.... vJ\,.,.\\-C. within the b.l.aek community, all rednecks, a popular term, that would meet every advance in the black community by~a. counter action. We, what I thought was the real thinking of leadership of this CR ST.A 3A sj page 9 I : U: community, almost became And caught in the middle, and had a lot of its so called friend$, or drinking buddies, who were redneck. I hate to use that term, but it saves a lot of words. Um-hmm. It had a lot of /u the black community, and just hated to see it. It took more overt steps to revert it. And just stood by almost with your head in the sand. This was the great majority of people that I think were Just really became Two really poor With that, Law enforcement I: How'd the Chamber, what was, did the Chamber try to initiate any any action to, Uh, ... ? U: No, the Chamber. I : You. U: And I guess I get blamed myself as much as -·' '7 {)Vo- /-rAJr;vJ. _. I went all week and became Mayor in '67. But, I wasn't thinking about it at the time. And I was serving on the Chamber as a The Chamber dropped efforts to improve. vJ *"' ~ c._.o~ YI-\ eY2C{. • 5 -\--"\ 't (' &. the.~~...s..t.at..e- completely out of COrJC.C•~N~o. Tlv( WCV2..e,. gr@ ates t , they hated to see it i;oL1.yt. f?nl)Gt'2,tf;'f15 • ____ ....:...._ ____ . ' coucer~s, strictly they knew it was going to hurt business. But as far as anything the Chamber thought, there was nothing I: Thats one of the tfuings that kind of baffles me, really, because, CR ST.A 3A sj page 10 eighty-five, the figure I've seen is eighty-five percent of the community was dependent in some way on the tourist industry. And, which took a real beating according to the statistics from the lCA~h\lu Jt S";iN 'l'f\i'\r.ttl'l M"l110 .. <\L VYION()•rttclllT] fort. Um, in, you know, as the months progressed from the spring to the summer, it was obvious that it was getting worse, and I wondered why either of the commission, or -€avDr. Shelley, or the Chamber, or some other part of the leadership of the community wasn't saying, "Listen, we simply can't afford it. Whether the community wanted it or not, we just can't, economically, afford to continue." U: Well, one thing we haven't talked about. This commimi ty has got {).... ... ..:t-ft.e., is very conservative. It was then the John Birch Society, you don't hear much about it any more, but it was an extreme right-wing. A really good, Christian people. And, anything you pll.() Y1c'~C'°') t.Vti.J (,.J blA\l S<'...SS IUN'S I S.U.WocS.e.d., ~ ~t • Socially anywhere, mean real '1..,, ,/\ -/.'.'\ ~ ,/~--- /-\' ,::\----,.("\. \.VU~ e-'-/~v '----'. ·· ··~ v ·· anyway conciliatory, you were ostracized by this, I good friends 5i'o+-_c- .:._I;_{-c_Yt--_£~0'--v--.-·--'"·-·-------- you were ostracized by this extreme right-wing. And they said, this time is bigger than your pocketbook, and so those that wanted to make a concession, so to speak, for economic reasons, to save the tourist industry, were really set upon by the extreme righthanded friends. Or, this redneck government, with which they were left not R.dc:....~J. , but had the same goals. ---~---~ I: Um-hmm. Do you have any idea why the Birch Society was influenced by,<:I know Dr. Norris, I believe at the time was the head of it. Uh, do you know why they were so influential? CR ST.A 3A sj U: Well, they were ... page 11 I: Were they, was it, sort of the Kennedy thing that got them, I don't know, seems, seems like the Birch Society begins to flourish with the Kennedy administration reaction to it, and then grows even more in the Johnson administration. rr,,C1-1,..1~y eit."" U: I think it came from Ga!penter, that there was a Communist behind every bush. And in th.W movement, of social change, was Communist.'·.~l . certain things. 5\: \J! ... ~ t" collar, and there were anybody who was ,.._, ~c.C:-nR-n1.es.5 , I ~~~~~~~~~ didn't care wh_at Co\o'Q, II ~\l off completely there, I'm, I'm going to come back." And there were just some periodic, it was maybe a beating here or theTe, by a few of the rednecks, really, and not downtown, they happened to be around the peripheries of the community. But he said if things didn't calm down all together, that he would come back. And, what was significant to me, was that, Dr. Shelley, on the front page of the paper, The St. Augustine Record, warned both sides that violence of any sort would not be permitted, people would be prosecuted, they could count on a heavy fine, and a stiff jail sentence. U: person. I: And, uh, then the, I think it was either the next day or the day after, the sheriff, Sheriff Davis, also appeared on the front page of the paper, saying literally the same thing. My thought was, my question, I guess it is, could that sort of thing been done to Davis in 1964, to force him, the community forced him, either through Shelley, or through some other able white leader-ship, or was ag~in, the division, I guess, as you mentioned, CR ST.A 3A sj page 17 "') - between this right-wing~ and the rest of the community so difficult? U: Well, the statements that you're talking about, in the newspaper, wAvt f1t1wr,r; . lJe had no staff here. A lot of people in the State's /l+fo._. ... q's office was not near 1 y as we 11 eq ui ppe d ___________[_ o.._s i_t:-=>IJ'-- is now. And we were constantly after the sheriff to do his, <.job. But, he had this great popularity. _._U~~;:__kJ_~~s------~ an extremely personable guy, with this element that I'm talking about, and he even had a in his life, ·he just had a magnitude. He sure was lax when it came to him personally. I\- w '?\ '> 'j 1:h .. , .,.. _l)'-' I t' s 0 they t ottl"d me _·0 _v.._ men, that I had known, that had they *n-e-wrr, and I considered them leaders of the community. Guys that had been the mayors, guys that have been in the Senate, that had amassed personal fortunes, and were now letting sons and relatives, friends go under the table, on a day to day. These guys were your senior citizens with plenty of influence statewide and concerns ( = _ A nationwide. There's many things that -flt'! c..u1. •. U ht<111c.Jor1< > ~"'* c;; ':::::::> didn't do, simply because they thought it was a bad dream, that it woald all go away. They didn't want to be labeled as a μ10ue17. 7 'l • ,, as a nigger-lover. Or to have a cross burned in their yard. And, as you look back on it, it seems simple or trite that that could influence the people. But it was really influential, it I l 1 ' was a big thing to them. Ta avoid theJ b ~G labe~f a nigger- ~ lover. ) CR ST.A 3A sj page 19 I: You~ ... U: I don~t know if your other interviewees have expressed that opinion or not, but I really think that, that, uh, these elements VvL 7rcA-~""' "eeffective leadership. Your have a tendency to quiet your I: Is, was it meant, was it kind of a small town nature of the U: I : " -, ,_ community that sort of made it difficult to un-, say\ take this -.. ·, · ... '·.\ .. '-,·", independent stand? I know in Little Rock, for example, there, the business community there, you don't hear much of, you never hear much about this. I guess its up to us historians to publicize more. The business community in Little Rock, which clt-J, is a much bigger community, ~take this sort of independent stand, I was wondering if it was sort of the small community of St. Augustine that made it difficult. ., (_,\,_\S: o\- r~\l<.-L • I think so. Every, you know, its not ybur g~aper p!ac;_~_, its not the sheriff. Every job had a name and a face, and we knew this. Everybody is so well known, it makes it a lot more difficult. Just a reflection. I've seen the figures, but I was wondering do _;ik; you recall, kind of in a qualitative way, how bad business was hurt, in '64. U: I'm sure that '64 and '65 the :touri~t industry was hurt. The rest of the business, I was not aware s ""-~ of the (Jeographic? ----'~'------ I: No, I didn't. U: All right, this came out in February of '66. Its a beautiful section on St. Augustine. This is just a reprint. But, this fellow, Connolly, that wrote it, this assistant editor hat came down here, was here, and this was keyed to be published prior 0r coincide with the celebration, which would have been in September, '65. And because of the racial problems, and this being a non-controversial magazine, they held it out, and did not publish it in this-C'~ome of the greatest advertising I know of. But it did not hit the newsstand until some five or six Io.At.A.. . months~. But it was keyed to come out in either September or August of that summer, when your real influx of tourists would have been expected. I: There was incredible pressure being brought to fo eo....VL , here in one the . . . . L ll vie.Ii"''{ \ -.l ·1 d.tJNl.\- -H-1~"f< '1 lt >'-l"" r,- Ao,_,..:\· I\ . A~ A U: ~--,,,..,.,.~question. Thi~fbeautiful piece of advertising which was - I: Um hmm. U: Thats a 1m"''"'"""TL'I respected periodical. I: Rigfit. This is true. U: But somebody got to them, and they held that thing up, and I was CR ST.A 3A sj page 22 I was totaled. /.J- """,.,~ "(,.l}c.1"1-t sfo~.y. I: Well, after, after '65, has it, has there been any problems at all since I saw, I think, one, one egg throwing at a Easter parade, but those were, those people from Jacksonville who threw the eggs. I haven't seen any reference to any problems after, really, '65. U: Not really. You see, the college out here closed. I : U: Um hmm. - & They were from Miami. Um, Hail~went to Melbourne, or something. And there may be black leadership. There was some [,__ b 11wk:.sfj] brothers) [ v--bnNK. lrJ They, they They've moved away. And I think St. Augustine, uh, segregations have been abolished, but as far as your relationship with the black community 1+1~ v.\__,,,,__\- /i-ke d (;JYJS. There are no blacks with responsible jobs. Particularly 1,v -/~ L school, and _:::_5~~~"'-~t~c::.......:========----~ I: Did it take long for the old relationships to come back, the harmony that existed before, even though it was a different racial pattern, did it take long after the chaos of '64 for those relationships to be restored again, in the community, the white community uptight and the black community as well? U: I think some, within the community. Still bear a label of having , or or tried to create harmony, or racial hi n l'it.!fl'- 1 ------- committee. Although I'm sure the~, there are some scars. I: Um hmm. U: I have coffee every morning when I'm here, in the restaraunt. CR ST. A3A page 23 Any of our friends who want to drop in, but its pretty well in the h~n... same group. And this guy who comes in t~e, that, I didn't know this, but its reported that he was very instrumental in helping the media people set up and be in the right place at the right time. He was kind of a early v.i..:c~.y:.. Ran a ptr-.l.J /1~ house next door. Young fellow, attracted me. He's since become ,te_o... "ift~ ~ •.• a w=t4:t~ and~ well established in the community. And he still bears that label of having cooperated, with not the blacks, but the media. I: Um hmm. U: And getting ready for them, set up. ~e SL.ow u_s ,w a.._ bad I: U: light. ~Z.01 •. + ~If /N -f-l..t- We 11, this, I appreciate your tolerance, a..J...tho.!!gh I have;...an4 "vt\'! .,f wanted questions, I can't think of anything else that might be relevant. You have anything else ... ? No, I'd just like to ask you some questions. c ()Yl-{'\"i~! Sure.~1 was talking to your son about some of the things that happened. Let me just say, I, I've been over at Florida for six years now, at the University of Florida, and I'm, I've been teaching history for seven years. I went to the University of North Carolina, thats where I did my work, and graduated from Chapel Hill, I: Did you? U: I d J ,...), .. ! ;[' ltl , f t~ ~! I: Well, I'd one of the war before that. Went to Vietnam before I .. U: Well, I went to war, first World War. I: Well, you went to a little better war, in terms of sense of play. CR ST. A 3A page 24 But, uh, I've done, I had, I had written one book on the, on Florida gubernatorial politics in the twentieth century, the study of the governor's office, the campaigns, and that sort of got me interested in race relations in Florida, because I, I always saw Florida while I was doing that work as a rather progressive IN state, and I wanted to find out why. And, and looking at it, I got interested in St. Augustine, and what happened here, and why it happened here, so, basically, I think tha~s what I want to talk to you about. As a man who has been in a leadership position in St. Augustine for some time, and knows it very well. I'd like to talk to you about that. I was wondering, why, when you came to St. Augustine, were you, was your family here already, or did you move? U: I moved down here. Moved to /e11..,AivTJ11vt1 ~~~~~~~---~~~~~~~-1-~~~ 1925. I: Did you come to set up a law practice here, or did you come as a r 4· k'f /II(_ t'l- ? U: I came as a --f-~_n_,_N~'ti...~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I: Where did you do your, your work, and where did you recieve your education, your legal education? U: Florida. I: At the University of Florida? Is that where you graduated from after you left Chapel Hill, and went to the war? U: No, I went to Florida first. I : · Oh, I see. U: I graduated ~~~~~~~~~~ live in '-f-A.rc.. Florida, then I went up to Chapel Hill. high school, and I thought it was wrong to CR ST.A 3A page 25 I: If what, could you tell me what St. Augustine was like as, as you were a young man here, as you lived here, you. U: It was very similar to what it is now; hasn 1 t been much change. /Jeoelt Of\-'-- f f,op/-e_ . ... l.apf t since the, since the restoration I: When did the, when did the restorations start? Was it underway when you were here? w~k ttJ~l""C:) U: No, it was not. It started w en )/e S-fft11-k ti , i-- &~ t - /N T11)1c.,~r'1SSte >lnnl-t.f A- Co"'m rr.sMJ ~ Wtt-F-, 1965, or maybe it was '64. I: It was sort of basically a small community. Were, were there .•.. U: Like it is now, except there's just C-._ tt v..J more people now. - I: Uh huh. Socially, how would you characterize it~ 'Was it, was there U: kind of a, was there a social elite in the city, or was it pretty open sort of city. 1;.,1 -ll" Is a~;'"' r er Well, there was a, there was a, it was different, -&t le-a-st to h /Mt-5f- pnop,R+ION rt ft. I'. ~ We had a large po1,,.,__\"' or-'··· l~emen-tr-t1;~t--/1>fl(.),,...1 we.-YL<- ' minorities. I: Uh huh. U: They feel fY .Jt')t ~11'1 fn-; ~ themselves, and when I: Uh, was the business community so, pretty much the leader, leadership of the community? U: No, everybody was about the same ~11 -ft .. t between, ~white people. <:.. - leadership I: Uh hmm. Were the Minoc~ins any, did they~~~~- the city's leaders? CR ST.A3A page 26 U: I : U: - _,_.,,..-- some. fV'I IN' t't~ C, )l'I S Uh huh. What did most, most, where'd most of the ~-gs- C1*- t-reen on the economic ladder, have they held blue collar jobs, some blue collar I: Oh, uh, is, now this, is this the headquarters for the Florida ( n .R.?) East Coast, here is St. Augustine? U: Was, it was. I: When did, when did it move to Jacksonville? U: -Jacksonville. They still call this headquarters. I: Uh huh. They still call this the headquarters, though. I see. Uh, ~as, as you've been here, in the years you've been here, were there any racial problems at all, uh, prior to '64? U: Never. I: How 'bout, how long has that college, that Negro college been out there? That, uh, Florida Memorial College, I believe it was. U: It was here when I came. I: It was here when you came. U: It was for a while, I don't know _e_y_c-..__c_.~__,/7~~~~ I: Um hmm. Do you have any idea when one of the things, that seems to me rather remarkable about St. Augustine is that you have the Negroes and the whites living very close together, in some, some cases, they live on the same streets. There's very little, sort of) segregation in housing. Theres not kind of like a "Negro . ( -~. town" and a ,;1White town", seems to me that both groups live very close together, if not next door to one another. I was CR ST.A 3A page 2 7 looking at the districts, and ... U: _?Ji_l_h1_....._f_l _~ --~-v_1 _~_(_~n_~_v_· ____ population has been here a long time. Um, across from the 01A.1t.. since it was {.,.i<, NAVf'~ ? ..B.ut, uh, Pu. ii. ve ,.,,P-I: Was that~' or something? f,.._n_-1t~IQ.. U: No, p-er yea.Twas about uh, !'fi'('fif!S later. I: Uk huh. U: I: Was that, that, was that a Baptist school? f1,11..V'\...'(t~'t P-e-r--y-e.a-i:. was f i 11 e d U: 1+-μf'\S c I Yes, afi.4 a 13opl-t':;,f school~ /lr"-' K.cno.JA'>A "'"'(\) o-..(!kh l>I i .. n...t"lr.r-CC~ c, m>"lN ,vl'H""t 6niA'( C-4 t"r1L=". I g-rfrde chan-g.e. f,..JA:> 11.J cJ"""-"'i· ~ -,+- fl\.t,.,.. 6nwr fc.f/ w.-.J wo.(- 'T Lfeotdb/1 F~M I : That was for an ------- U: And, uh, he was arrested for stealing I -1-/-..,..,-k ..up .tliere ,. JN-; Hr.lf.JLL•( C,or 1i,J o (' "i»-- . Then they had another fellow nameJ. ~e. ON· And Pv...t<..'Jf.r4t1- Lf 17 . Then there was~ L 117 t....i"l'> ,..,,{- ""- hr<1.t Son__'>-(."l:.l-t...,.,. ".('n.c • 1'J.!,,_c.. wasn't ~ I: Well, I was thinking of '63, uh, just to refresh your memory, when 'u~,' 'uh\,. you had that white fellow, William Canard, who was killed while he was riding around in the Negro area with a shotgun, and, uh, you had the, the uh, Hailing, this fellow, this dentist Hailing, was,·went out to the Klan meeting and got hims~lf all beat up. That happened in '63. Did-they stop? U: Uh huh. I: Uh huh. Uh huh. U: I: So when King came, that was virtually good U: They had, they have a little ifcJi'J..,'t- lfl"\O~tN'I" .t.~ _rHJ'l7H!N(, • a-1-o ng-t-1-me--runn1-n g ·. could walk down before, but When they, when they fixed it so pJ21mr1•~1e7 , we had a, a -±-trdy named I And, uh, he came up last I said, "hey, And, uh, he uh, he said that he wanted _-h.._~V..J_o_~-~--======----~ 5 /en.Jf p,__,vf s;o ; IV I : \Ai"" l." W\"" U: And the perfectly good ------, he went out, and he started CR ST.A 3A page 29 the registration, and started with a. __ 7hri.-ct~c,Ji1 you cfeml).v t;,7n ~in.:>.....- know. Didn ~ t do that much a..dmHH:-s-t ta ti on, I know. Now, if somebody had a, had a, started a demonstration here, I don't -~ know who~was. Bubba told me that the, uh, the NAACP, he said brhu. .# jhr_ he had ~ to it, and joined it. 'cause he thought it was a good thing for the people, and then they kept after his money, and he, he didn't give them any money, just paid his dues, and they broke his windows out. He had a real estate office then. He won't, I told him He went out and put this Some, some militant t-ft-i-rrg/VC..Gno d.dlit- I: Um hmm. U: Least tha~s what he thought, and I think so too. And then they had a demonstration down at the courthouse one day, /p.rt- bt.to'(Q..... I : U: the judge. :r don't know why they were demonstrating. r~~hink thats what happened. Robbers in the courthouse singing He~> t I some songs. The sheriff, I was made a deputy :t~ ()...,..r.i.. .. h...<- ~-put him in charge of it, and he got all wild, and It wouldn't have been bad, lot of them were drinking to it, and I COUTS e this thing ~·)1- \mJ; •. \T <; !) (,I'\ J. wasn't no, no violence. ·um hmm. -\"~ t~ t..><'..'~-(... but, there They're mostly child.rert n9w,}\~children-from1the schoil>l, you know. . . I Perhaps I: Why do you think King came here? Why do you think Martin Luther King came here? I U:fi Well, at that time, we were, we were, it was war, we were about CR ST.A 3A page 30 to celebrate our fotir hundreth anniversary here, and they heard there's a whole lot of publicity in the paper for it. 1L- ~e.-..dr..,f ~11'7:> appointed a commision of, that we we~e gonna ' C.." ...._IV\&~~ JO ..J going to c~on, . AL &rc1 if {!of.'L it, ~i-n-t.G There were three or four of us planning on pub lici ty. Um, I don't _f(_rJ_o1;-._1_ _= t-'-1l_ ~_{_,t~_•.;;..;'-"';_;_·,'"-+f-...{. "'-"" "'c'"-'1;1"""c' ."•"" ..:...~t_· -+-f_,--f-.~."'"c'..:...~---- • r_, -~ I: So he was gonna take advantage of the four hundreth anniversary to get a lot of publicity. U: Get a lot of the publicity. Tha.t., s, that's , that was what I thought. I: Uh huh. U: Least there was any, they had a couple of parades, I went on the government parade, cc3c r ;J ~. CL~-1-o"Mul;I., ()\..,.-..__.Q wC\.lr.l·v_.l tf · l..J~ik. _.;,;;:;:;;,..:::.._;"-'--_=.;:;:;..;_,.__ ___________ __;_~:;;_;:.;::_:._.:.__ -io t of· people partying, and. . I: Was most of the trouble caused by outsiders, like King, and some~ Klan people from Jacksonville? U: I think practically all the Nc.c.ru.1e-s were outsiders. Now, I've been here a long time, and I know some .Negroes. Um, and I went out and sat out in the fi"'-rvtv-.oetl-t and watche.d the parade, and I didn't see a s ingleANegro·- that -I-lQl:ew, not one. Now, there had to be, most of them had to be outsiders. And the same thing was true with the white, with the white ones. We were just a stagelwv~ - I .LI I C.ll.IA~fNC. c..,fl -/{,.1-{- W1ts1-i 4- /f;Jyf"11,.J c / ;.1 Sf /J,,7 .... ·; 1'1N~i'>"'f>("t / favor~te reporters a ring. And, of course, all the demonstration went there,King went over there, you know, where, where you, publicity. I: Um hmm. U: And, uh, the whole thing was staged in the function. So you see, right over there. He tried to get in a car to follow me, you know, I: Yeah. U: But he refused to let 'em go. He was wrong. reporters "r .',_,.,... I- 'C'"'J .,..;. -··,/........., t •, v ...__ end of tape
Bi-Racial Committee -- Flagler Memorial Hospital -- John Birch Society -- Ku Klux Klan -- Murray High School -- National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) -- Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC) -- St. Augustine Record -- St. Augustine Chamber of Commerce -- St. Johns County Sheriff's Office -- Monson Motor Lodge -- University of Florida -- University of North Caronlina Chapel Hill -- St. Augustine Quadricentennial Celebration - Metadata URL:
- http://civilrights.flagler.edu/cdm/ref/collection/p15415coll1/id/1043
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