Dan Warren : Transcribed Interview

Collection:: Civil Rights Library of St. Augustine
Title:: Dan Warren : Transcribed Interview
Creator:: Warren, Dan
Colburn, David
Contributor to Resource:: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, University of Florida
Date of Original:: 1900/2022
Subject:: Civil rights--United States--Florida
People:: King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968
Hayling, Robert Bagner
Shelley, Joseph, 1915-2007
Simpson, John Milton Bryan, 1903-1987
Young, Andrew, 1932-
Location:: United States, Florida, 28.75054, -82.5001
Medium:: transcripts
Type:: Text
Format:: application/pdf
Description:: Interview with Dan Warren, State Attorney from Daytona Beach, Fl., who was deeply involved in the St. Augustine civil rights movement. A recount of the major incidents that he presided over. Also goes into detail about the use of the first amendment by MLK and Andrew Young. Talks about the night marches and protection issued to the demonstrators.
CRSTA SA CTM Subject: Don Warren Interviewer: David Colburn S: I became an Assistant State Attorney on August of 1961 and I would have become the State Attorney, the following July of 1962. I: And that was an elected position, is that correct? S: I was elected to the unexpired term in September of 1962 and then-wasU-.' 06 subsequently;1reelected in, let's see now, I had two elections, right, OK, I was subsequently reelected as, I think our primaries at that time \h were conductec» the Democratic primaries were conducted in May. I: Right. 'Jo S:~\lhoever won that one in May of '64 would have had four additional years. "1 het& to So, I had two elections. I had toy/run for the unexpired term in September of '62 which I won. Then I had to run again in 1964 which I won again. Then I resigned in '68. I think that was the sequence,of terms. I: What areas of the state did you have? S: It was called the 7th Judicial Circuit. It comprised four counties, Volusia, Flagler, Putnam, and St. Johns. I: What were the duties? S: The duties of the State Attorney at that time was t:rrprosecute felony cases and to assist the Grand Jury's presentation of matters for the Grand Jury. We also had duties of prescribed by the Statutes, which included such things as enforcement of the ~~~~~~~~~~~~~- felony and capital cases. We did not were to prosecute all felony cases, ~; ~ cle'(•X:C1.\ae. have _1'17()..,_.. 4 jurisdiction at that time. We had, they had a county prosecutor in St. John's county. r-- o·\· I: When did you first become involved in the events "'hl St. Augustine? S: Well, I first became involved with the Grand Jury in November of the preceeding year. This is before Dr. King, the SCLC came into St. CRSTA 5A CTM Page 2 I: S: Augustine. And we called the Grand Jury for the purpose of trying to get some dialogue between the black community and the white community . ...--.... for the purpose of establishing a b~acial commission. . ie.6 testimonx from approximately 26 witnesses as I recall and We took In o.n dfo~ W; that w~s u.hi the to get a biracial commission standing. This seemed to be the/lcontro-lool'n t\.e a.~d fu,d:\") versy. The lack of participation by~blacks 9eroFe theacoming quadri-centennial that St. Augustine was going to be celebrating in 1964 for the four hundredth founding of the city. And a biracial commission, I mean a quadricentennial commission, had been established, I believe by the legislature and I think it was funded by the legislature. O.ncl d1J l \ - '\ 1\\ '1:11€..~0(,'\\"l\l.,..t,\''\\\;;,:J> S.everal of the blacksA primarily Dr. Haste, had requested that there Av0..v.\,\ be a black on the'Sl&. commission~ I) '$,his led to CJ)JJ,~,C1.[JJJ:l,Wt~J,? and t,~tt- < that he would suggest this. From there on out, things went downhill. We realized that this was a potentially explosive situation. In order to hit it off, we utilized the Grand Jury. And they did come out with , Lr t,\1c.t L~'"> you..'r!J. \\OJJC i.o \cc¥-. o..\;tr-.e p~.e<;ef'lbnent 1 l-:;errJ a report and suggeste4f. as I recall, A-4-""c/v<"Vo/)c\,.../lc; , ~ I: I ~ee , 5 : 1, ' 0. ~O'fnCJI ,\'_,1 l,~.c_. not 6 • 4~ typ. e thingAwhere we would issue ' t (.i.JOLk:\<__ \')~) to come in.(\ "le would request, you know, the leaders of both sides to come in and sit down and talk about it. CRSTA SA CTM Page 3 \\o..u Try to get a dialogue going.A~u understand that I cannot discuss what went on in the Grand Jury. I: Right. Exactly. OK. How about HJling. You had some meetings with Haling in both '63 and 64. How would you discribe •••• S: No, not with Haling. I: Oh, you didn't. S: No. I: Oh, I see. S: No, not with Haling. I may have had one meeting with him after this incident occured where he and several of his black friends had gone down to a Ku Klux Klan meeting, I believe that they had been severly beaten. I think maybe at that time, he came in and made an complaint at that time. I: Right. OK. How about Mayor Joseph Shelley? S: Well, the mayor and I just don't see eye to eye on this "'.J-t , \\ uei u!__i b >\.:.: thing at ali, 't::b:is situation. Here's where I feel a real lack of leadership 9e:ict~ "t. \:, I.A"" ) it took place. St. Augustine never should have happened./\'Fhe request of blacks was of course entirely proper. And in keeping with their desire to r.articipate in an event of great importance in their lives ~'\cl ~·1'11 ,, too. /1Also, of course, Haling was an activist. And the only thing ~ he was asking for.was the natural rights that belong to every human being. And so the criticism would have to lie with the white leadership, its' failure to recognize, to take action. \fJ\,'C.. 0 .'..> '-'J l I: What about '64? When did you firsw, did you have any dealings with I i' (I 0'·t~ SCLC;jin '64? S: Yes. As I recall, I, let me see, I have a chronological ~~1t~ < from > here on out, OK. My first involvement would be probably Thursday, June the 11th with the then current crisis. King had been into CRSTA 5A CTM Page 4 St. Augustine, I think, in May for the first time and had called for they il~nj again, for a biracial commission to be created. He then,)this was ignored, began to set up demonstrations, day-time demonstrations. Then the city commission of St. Augustine passed an ordinance which required a permit to march. Then King went into the Federal district court to enjoin the city of St. Augustine from interferring with the 11.\)fL First Ammendment rights. And .:Fetr"Simpson issued an order enjoining the city from interferring with peaceful demonstrations. I: OK. How about the one with Governor Bryant? Were you involved in that at all where Governor Bryant put a curfew on night marches? S: Yes, in fact I suppose I was the one that was instrumental in that. I: In what way would that be? of~ovr:).:;;:__ S: Well, her():~orcthe marches had been in the daytime and we~were charged with the responsibility of protecting the rights of the marchers and also their constitutional rights to :~acefully assemble and petition the government f?'"'.1 1 \c~f r5z;;;~ a di;. grievances as required by the first ammendment. And the route that they were going to take, we ~OU. \,'·\\OvJ) had asked that they let us have the route,~an hour or two ahead of time so that we could have sufficient troops on hand to protect their first ammendment rights. When they switched to the night marching, the routes that they gave us disturbed us because it encompassed marching through the old city. And there was just no way in the world that we could protect the marchers and there were young children in the group ~JJ\'\Q • from anyone hiding in ambush~ wanted to inflict bodily harm on them. (, \ \\'.'\[!\ ,_,\~1) There was just no way without~~· 'ku8W martial law being imposed. A 'Niat decision, I consulted with the governor on that decision and explained it to him. He issued his order and I was the one that implemented the CRSTA SA CTM Page 5 order that night, which led to the contempt citation. And I testified before Judge Simpson in the Federal district court to just what I told you. And after that was over with, I remember meeting Andy Young in the \le hall, and he came over and talked to me for just a moment and,,~ said you D?-jC"'(~. \\e .. :~o;,01. know, that testimony won the case for Governor ~~That was the very thing that we were concerned about, how could we justify the death of c.;.,o:;c.:.., any of the marchers. If we -e~ the route, which could not be fully 7 Ta~e 6lO.:td .• :; ·t:a l I: protected for ___._ ___ Did the marchers on any occasion sort of try to ---- the lines, the \ \' l f("\C,., \ vccc.·L\,tn1 police lines? S: No, no. They were extremely orderly. I: I was wondering though, when they gave you the route they were going to take, did they anytime deviate? S: No. They followed the route except on this occasion when we wouldn't let them. I: How about your workings with the FBI ? Did you have much connection with the FBI during this period ? S: No, we were there mostly as ~b~lf((V We had, I had -------- with the FBI. Most of mine was when they made their charges who was the Florida Highway Patrol. We had ---------~ sort of a ______ head quarters. And I was there under------ State Attorney a special appointment. And --------- actually implemented his t!C1ta..ck executive under a -------- which granted the governor almost total legislative powers to handle the situation. I issued the first order. (The tape is malfunctioning at this point) CRSTA 5A ctm Page 6 and to permit error----------- the rights of another ___ _ to use such force as is necessary to __ come this ------ proper. And -------------- all those that walked away. waded out into the ocean and lost their tubes and some of them drown. was alive a survey ----------------~ ---------- of law enforcement officers. Some of them ---- with them. It kind of worried me that because I think that the -----------~ -------- actually will talk to the state superintendent- ----- with the activities and the plan -------------------- I: Was there a good deal of coordination between the state police and the sheriff and city police chief's office? ;;~:i:r, ; S: Ah, it was more,fiI would have to say that the city police, you've got to understand that they were just absolutely ill-equipped ------- situation such as this, ------ mentally or physically. And so the type of cooperation really would not be that much ------------ -------- your manpower all comes from the state. And that virtually stripped the Florida Highway Patrol and the Florida Fresh Water Commission and all other regulatory agencies The troops in St. Augustine had about ----------- They had had no training either. It was ----------------~ I: Were the local officials ----- Sheriff Davis, were they more than willing to work with them? S: They were pretty----------~ They did work, I don't know of any incidents in which they entered the state agencies. The fact is, I know several instances which L,o.~'~ accept personally. I really went out on the line to accept them. We had a real, real touchl'. C\."~90 CRSTA SA CTM Page 7 o. 12,10L situation that almost had u.aI~ieElea the night before. When we had the --------- no backup, when we had the night marches, we came out and asked everyone to stop talking now about -------- the night before. And they were asking everyone to refrain from acts that could be construed as violence. A friend of mine who I had borrowed from --------- to assist me in this thing, George He now works for Senator Jackson in Washington, suggested that perhaps we could get the whites to call off their demonstration. See they, the whites were marching and the blacks were marching and they were marching side by side, only going in opposite directions. So we had a secret meeting with ------- George ------- and myself, -~~-- and investigated ~ ------------ a holiday and I had just met with K~nYat about six thirty in the evening. ------------ So we knew that the whites were going to march that night so we asked ----------- call the march off. We expressed surprise over the fact _____ this is a democratic organization and we will take a vote on it. And so _________ we agreed to do it. We have written out the ------- ---- and held on to all law abiding citizens call off the ---------------~ ------- and shouted I'll tell you one thing, --------------~ it didn't take as much -'---------- The thing that really amazes me is ______ citizens of St. Augustine did connnit _________ _ I: How did they allow as they did? ~ S: This was I had n~nowledge of how it permits I: What's his name, Shelley claims that he asked you if you knew anything CRSTA SA CTM Page 8 it and you said ~-------- S: Was ---------·, I don't recall Shelley ever saying that to me. I never asked him whether or not he could do anything about it. He may have I don't know. We did do this, we --------- at all of these --------- whether or not we had permission to ------- Now r .1E''-~ .) (' -~ ·,-.,' , ('" ·. ,. ' ( r.··'t,,'··,'c(/ , I was the one that VJ '''· \ .. .J · •• • • ·· ·" 'J' .~' '\;> "c;::::> e ''"' "'c;;;::-> ""c: , , . . on private property blacks to have them arrested. So I don't ~------ --------- think the facts ------ his position. NBC set up a showing ----------- we could use They were very gracious. They put up a little, 1'"0 \"'\'.:! \\vyf. theatre where I could sit theU with.11 a couple of;lboys. (\ 'w.e sat through almost two days, maybe three days, nothing but this harrang .to see if we could I: (~\\L '- f'f'.\ " Now Hamilton Up~~ was your assistant, wasn't he? S: No. I: He was not. S: He was not at that time. I: I see. When was he your assistant? Was it '63? S: Let's see. Hamilton quit almost immediately after I became, well I won't say immediately, within the matter of a year anyway, 7 --- as I recall at that time. I: Why did Upchurch quit? He didn't agree with you on this •••• S: No, that wasn't it at all. We were and still are close friends. He o' \\'\\\ ? supported me in bothAbampaigns although after I made my famous ___ _ speech, he wrote me a letter and said he didn't think he could support me any longer which was perfectly alright. 7 J I liked Hamilton very much, in fact, I helped him as best as I could in lj-{)~ his race forfiiegislature. CRSTA SA CTM Page 9 I: How about Simpson? How would you describe Simpson as a Judge? He sort of switched around here somewhat in '64. Initially, he, over the Easter demonstrations, he ruled against the demonstrators and then later on, when they had the mass demonstrations which you witnesse~ he changed ground and supported the demonstrators. t\1.o.. \JtA.\) S: Well, I thin~ the fault, I don't know about the Easter demonstrations, ';)00. lJ',\ \ 0-\f\ J but I would say that if ~ presented Judge Simpson with aAissue, supported by evidence of a violation of any constitutional right, Simpson, without \ -' 1,.\ ~'>; ' " ('t (' ~\0..1\ lJ,''' '"} any lms:i ta' l'A'fi"' at all, would guarantee those rights. He would do absolutely nothing to interfere with constitutional rights. In that regard, I consider him to be one of the great judges of all time in the Federal district. I: Did you have much working with him before '64? S: No, I had known Judge Simpson prior to this time, primarily through my later law partner but a good friend to the judge, he and the judge. And I had known Judge Simpson but you see I had no practice in the e.t.- ~M.IJ federal district court because being stationaryl I had given up my private practice. 'L i · ... 1' I had devoted full time to •> <.:U:t~- \i1)m~:'I':). I: Right. There was a, Shelley said something about the children. I was wondering if you could validate this at all. He said that the black children of the demonstrations had come there from out of, been brought in by King and alot of them without their parents' consent. ' \b S: No, I don't think that was true. IA !,actA there was a charge made by the probation officer against King alleging this. I don't think it was ever proven and I don't believe it is the truth. I: OK. How about Governor Bryant during all of this. Was he, now he had \\\ spokea~ 1 63 to the House Committee that was considering the Civil Rights Bill, that was ultimately adopted in '64, he spoke against it. What CRSTA SA CTM Page 10 sort of position did he take in '64? t-he. S: Bryant was extremely concerned about maintainingApeace aftd erder in St. Augustine, even though he was a states rights and believed in state's rights which had been the populists' concept from before the War between the States until and in some sections of the south He had felt that interposition was still a valid defense. However, he did not do anything in my opinion to, let's put it this way, he did everything and that he could under the power that was vested in him by being governor to protect the first ammendment rights of marchers even though he may not have been accepted. I: How did he and you respond to Simpson's decision to permit the night marches? S: Well, I was requested to fly to Tallahassee that night A '"" 6 / /\7,.........,., /\ L\ Jor that afternoon and I\)' "" and Joe Jacobs and I I did and we met there with Jimmy KY/-nes r; can't recall who else was present, I think~~~ Harrison, one of the governor's personal attorneys from Jacksonville was present at that time. In 1963, I had done an exhaustive research on this subject, the first annnendment rights and when they may be suspended and when they may not be suspended and I took the position that there was no way that we could justify the suspension of these rights unless we could show that there was irrep~rable, you know, injury and arm that was going to resolve that right to go there. You can't suspend a person of their rights. Your job is to protect those rights. You are the one to, you can't say look though, we don't have enough men. You have the whole state of Florida. You know, you have to do everything you can to, but if you are confronted with an emergency CRSTA SA CTM Page 11 situation, that's the only way it can be done. And then you must be in the position to show to the court that there were no other alterna-tives. And of course that was my margin that at this particular moment, we could not guarantee the safety of the marchers. And we had to divert, we didn't divert their, we only diverted their route through the old section of the city. We permitted them to follow their route right through the predominately white neighborhood in the night time. We made no changes in that route at all with the exception that we would not let them go to the old portion of the city. And I feel that that was a wise decision. I had no, and the proof of it is that Judge Simpson never did issue the order of ~~~~~?~~~~~~~~- I: But the night marches continued even though they didn't go through the old section. S: Right, sure. I think Andy Young expressed it to me, you know, his concern, was the same concern that I had. And he told me about it. He said that they were concerned about it but didn't know how they could justify it. that I: What about this biracial commission ~ Governor Bryant appointed that never met? S: Never got off the ground. Well, if I could tell you what happened ~1\11 the Grand Jury, I could tell you how that thing came about. But I really can't. During the iro& governor;} asked me to give him a call after I testified because contempt citation hearing in Jacksonville, I had, the \\o.& we~agreed after our meeting in Tallahassee that I wouldl1tt carry the burden of testifying on behalf of the governor as to what e·\f(yr~l:J. " t: D j;; \;- 0 ':::··* ?C·* \, ,.. we had taken to protect these rights. Why we had momentarily suspended that right ,iY).v~~t'~ ~ the route that they wanted to take. And I F\l>t> <:::;>-"'->~ did testify to that fact before Judge Simpson. I told him, I said, CRSTA SA ctm Page 12 A1J \;'-'-") I'll never forget it. It was late at night.~'W;hen ~~~?- finally finished his cross examination of me, Judge Simpson said I could step down and I said, well your honor, I feel that I haven't been L1J,,;c_\'. t\"1\\f, permitted to testify to certain facts that~ I .f.eel are material. Simpson just rared back in his chair and he looked at me and said alright Mr. Warren, go right ahead. And I said your nonor I don't care if you utilize the entire power of the United States government and call out the .JP:(; 5l:.. Airborne and get all the marchers you \"Y'\OXc~ \'\'Gt.1.1<~c.., wanted to but ~ martial law; you can't -~ue for the safety of those chiloren marching through danger in parts of the city at night-time. And I said I've got six children myself and I don't want the blood of any one of those children on my hands. And old Simpson rared back in his ~e he.. chair anc:V1looked at me andfisaid thanks Mr. Warren. That's what's been bothering me. ,He said that. \ \ .fl/ J\-p We.Ji V:•'1 \J-'-'-Jui- I: ~1'las thefibiracial committee, I know you can't again go into this grand jury testimony but was it a serious thing or was it just sort of a Bryant's way of getting King out of there and ••• S: Well, it was compromise. It wasn't Bryant's way ,ff get~ King out ') t, fH.lg Uo tJ' l"l·~'.:.. of there. It was King's way to get out. King wanted out of~he main- ~. We had this meeting with King. I met with him and I'm trying to see the date, I think it was the 18th, I'm not sure, I'm almost v..,c,'.J sure,Aeither the 18th or the 19th. It would have been the 19th because he rejected the Grand Jury proposal. And I was sitting in the ~~1oloQ having a cup of coffee with George Allan. And a UPI reporter approached me and said Mr. Warren, I'm an envoy from l.r. King ~ ~e would like to meet with you privately off the record, if you would agree. And I told him that I would agree to meet with him any place, CRSTA SA CTM Page 13 any time, he said on the record. And it was agreed that we would meet at D<('Q ~v(1f.i~ office. You see, before this there had been no meeting of what we would call ---1 --- up until this time because of the pressure that was put on the connnunity. And George Allan and I went out and we met with Doctor King and Reverend Abernathy was there, and Dr. \] I '(\_\ was there, I think Rev. d \J6 '..:' , was there, but j 4C=" l -ii. w1\E.CU\ee I'm not sure and I'm not sure about Andy Young. I don' t know ~ he was there or not. I just can't recall. But in any event, Dr. King wil\.,_o.::;~'n 'hf· star~ed off the meetin&1more or less. He said Warren, you don't realize; u..\\ 1 \ \C ~)L'l' ch,~ :~~-~~~~~tion at hand. I'm not here to destroy America; I'm here to keep America from being destroyed. He said there are those in the w'1o Civil Rights Movement -t:b::tt: want to burn America down. (Tape Side 2) ,.~marching, demonstrating for thirty days. And he said what assurances and he said after thirty days of peace and quiet, on the biracial connnission, what assurances do I have that there isn't going to be ~&+ some other group like the Black Panthers, some other group that wants to burn America down, from coming in, seizing the situation and then we have lost everything that we hoped to achieve and I said to him as I recall, that he didn't need to preach in a sarcastic way but in an understanding to ine. And 1;:Y.,a:\, way7 fl I had I didn't do it been, I had ~~.l--.\11 gone to a Quaker College @ff'd' I had been involved in the first attempt \'n to integrate the social services ff#. Greensboro, North Carolina back in 1947. I was a history major and also had a minor in sociology and this was a project of the Quakers, to integrate the social services. The only reason that they weren't integrated is becau~ they had largely dinner meetings and they said there was no place for blacks and whites could eat together in Greensboro. And I told him this. I said that I CRSTA SA CTM Page 14 am in sympathy with what you are doing. And I said that I cannot, you cov.\c( \"\Ct \°\O.>f-.., y:/;/;\Q\j 0'2_(:~1';.."h"\(:lf ...,,__ ....-1 ' .k. have _ out-o.f;zpo.cke.t:, rejected the grand jury's A-'\ ..., 4 "'V· '= 1 ··rue" ' ''' -,.; 1 L\v;_ 7 ~~~'~- foreman had already made the statement that they would not. You've got to just visually put yourself in that grand jury to understand the situation that I was in and even attempt to beget a biracial connnission. I cannot go into it and I won't go into what happened in the grand jury. You've got to understand ~what the situation must have been and even to get this far, I felt was a major, you know, a major effort. I had not considered what he had told me although I readily realized that that was the situation. So ultimately, I told Bryant ;t~ that when we were in contempt hearings that this was the issue 'l'lov-i -th:t"t and I told him the situation. /\I did not tell him about -:toRe meeting with King or what King said but I did tell him that there were emissaries here from Boston University speaking for King, Dr. De Wolf, Harold came to me and wanted me to ""'-~~ at Boston University, --1"~ 1f.lc IJ...7 help him hand.re · · how I got to DeWolf, who had been King's Boston. He wanted me to help see if we could get the governor on this biracial connnission. 7 I ~~~~-but King told me in Pur¥~r's office that I want out of °' \o7e~) a.vi& . St. Augustine but I cannot go out of her~ will not go out of here. I: Was he, was the president putting much pressure on Governor Bryant? S: Pur~~r? Oh, you mean I: President Johnson. S: Johnson? I'm really not in the position to say. I wouldn't be a bit surprised because there was a moritorium as you remember, 4- t\1e\~(;;., \.•_;Cl~ C\ great debate among the black community after the passing of the civil rights act whether or not there would be a moritorium on these marches. And Johnson as I recall, called for a moritorium. And CRSTA 5A CTM Page 15 King agreed and did have a moritorium. And there was dissent among the black community that know they shouldn't do that. I: Was there a feeling by you that King was trying to use St. Augustine to insure passage of the civil rights bill? S: Oh, sure. In retrospect, there is no question that that was the purpose. The weapon he used was not the marches. The weapon he used was the first ammendment. I: Right. What about after the demonstrations were over and the civil rights act had been passed, did conditions return to normal in St. Augustine? S: Not innnediately. In fact there was of course, efforts to make sure that the law was being complied with the sporatic demonstrations, \ _)\\1 t~& O.\i&. \'\\~ 5j \?'.OU\( primarily by 'J f\ · and his group, marching up and down in - Y\Qd.. 0-p.i::.P-6. lo) fuo..t front of the restaurants thatAdid~ serve blacks. And then, when the pressure was put on Hof fstead and Lynch and the rest of them, it pretty well folded. You can't believe today what it was then. I: How about in the white connnunity? Did you receive any particular S: support from anybody specifically in the white community? f viDvv\ . • Yes, I did; 'Fhe'!!e were two individuals, three individuals which I will be eternally grateful to. The first of course is Judge Harold Melton. He, LA.hi This man is a tremendous individual.fiWhen I called him and asked him if we could immediately reconvene the grand jury and would he make the order broad enough to, so that we could have some leeway, he readily f-1.:v
Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC) -- Ku Klux Klan -- Florida Highway Patrol -- Civil Rights March -- Civil Rights Rally -- Civil Rights Act of 1964 -- Night March -- Police Brutality
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