Guthridge: The the Ladies and gentlemen, it's a distinct pleasure to be here on this program of controversy, and I want to take this time to express my appreciation for Don Trumbull, Jr. and the Fayetteville, Jr. Chamber of Commerce for having the foresight and alertness and energy to present these programs to you. I think it's a wonderful thing. that you have great issues presented to you both sides. And I know you've already had two fine programs. And of course, my worthy colleague and opponent from Little Rock, who is certainly a young, a fine young man and an excellent lawyer with whom I have tangled with before. And I are going to do our best to make this informative, I'm sure. And we have not discussed this and what comes from here on. I don't imagine he knows too much and maybe I don't either. In fact, I wouldn't. The first thing I'm going to do, because I don't know about this time element, I'm going to read you an editorial, given over the, or rather a little piece given over the American Broadcasting Company's radio network, when these Freedom Rides of this summer, the ones north, first started. It was by the well-known commentator. called Harvey. He pretty well pleased our kids for us. The name of this is living in glass houses. He's not a southerner, although I do understand he lives in Missouri. Listen to them swarm. The hypocrisy of pompous northern do-gooders has never been more apparent. Such a little while ago they sent armies of photographers and news hawks down across the Mason-Dixon line with orders to look for trouble. You go anywhere and look for trouble, you'll find it. In the name of brotherhood, they flooded the nation's magazines with reams of invidious, slanderous distortion. In the name of equal rights, these Yankee carpetbaggers proclaimed themselves custodians for the conscience of America, pronounced new proclamations of emancipation for the Southern Negroes, while their own Northern Negroes were subjected to a more subtle but more degrading form of discrimination than the South has seen in almost a century. But many Southern Negroes did not know this. Some of them, the voices raised in their behalf, imply genuine compassion. Surely they reasoned up north the Negroes can enjoy recognition, equality, limitless opportunities. Now, the terrible awakening for a race so long used by political and economic opportunists. Suddenly, the northbound Negroes are told that they are not wanted. Many of the same persons and publications, which posed as their champions, now tell them to stay away. New Orleans—this was before Little Rock got into it—New Orleans is— A militant segregationist thirsting for retribution are offering busloads of Negroes a free one-way ticket north. They are collecting funds to send trainloads of freedom riders in reverse. Hurriedly, the director of public welfare in Detroit warns, you'd better not come here. Detroit already has 122,000 unemployed, 15,100 families on welfare. Chicago's welfare director says his city cannot care for these migrants. A New York state senator says southern Negroes should not jump from the frying pan. Discrimination in New York is more serious than most people realize. Listen to them squirm. It would be humorous if it were not so abysmally, desperately disillusioning to the hapless legions now left hopeless. The smile was a mask. Southern Negroes, again, were flagrantly deceived by the Northern do-gooders who were so eager to champion their cause from a distance. Now I'm going to read you. First, I'm going to tell you that we have sent from Little Rock. at their request, at their desire, all expenses paid, 57 Arkansas Negroes to points north, most of them to heinous Massachusetts. I selected a few letters. We received a few thousand letters, mostly from the north, and the ratio of those favoring what we were doing was a good ten to one supporting our side. I have a few letters here. supported by the postmark. I will not read from whom they are, but any reporter could see these later. But here's one May the 29th addressed to us in Little Rock from Hines, Massachusetts. You sure got our local bigwigs in one heck of a sweat trying to make out they don't have segregation here. When anyone who walks around Cape Cod with his eyes open can tell you they do. Send a lot more riders in July and August when this place is loaded with summer people who will go home. knowing for sure that old Kennedy, that all Kennedy wants out of colored folks is a vote. Signed, well I won't read what he signed. Here's another one. Postmark Oak Grove, Grove City, Pennsylvania addressed to us. Good work, keep it up. Keep sending Kennedy's black brothers to Massachusetts. Those Kennedy boys, Sammy Davis, Frank Sinatra, Martin Luther King, Lyndon Johnson, Ed Sullivan, and so forth, should welcome them to their new culture. My head is... Bowed in shame, I voted for Kennedy. Next time when I am confronted with such a choice, I shall not vote. Remember, I'm not saying this, I'm reading you letters. Here's one postmarked in Manchester, Connecticut. As a northerner who has been down south many times, I'm glad to see that your group is teaching many of our so-called integration zealots a fine lesson in the elementary facts of life. I've been following with great interest and amusement. the exodus of some 65 colored folks from the South destined for the High Ennis Court area. Let us see how sincere the vociferous Kennedy forces are in their extension of aid and hospitality to these folks. Now, I want to tell you this. The first Negro we sent to High Ennis Court was met by Edward M. Ted Kennedy, who is a candidate for the Democratic nomination to the United States Senate, age 30, at which election we'll be on September the 18th. He met David Harris, the cook that we sent from Little Rock. Two hundred people were there. Edward Kennedy met him and the old made a big to do. The pictures were on the front page of the Little Rock papers. When the next one showed up, that two hundred, it's the sharing of two hundred people that grumbled to two. And from then on it was just one. It was a selectman, a town councilman, Mr. E. Thomas Murphy, who met them from then on. And after the third one arrived, they panicked. It was all great for these government officials to try and force their integration policies upon the good people of the South, who know better than any other group the many complexities of this situation, having lived with it these many years. Now let us see if they will practice what they preach up in their own bailiwick of Hireness Court. You have given them a golden opportunity to either put up or shut up. My guess is that they will be searching for some solution to this little embarrassment, 65 people. and all the while hoping, a heaping of youth upon you and your council for dragging this condition right out in the open. Everywhere in the north we have segregation in effect, but the folks don't recognize it or dare to openly admit it. But very few whites want to mix in the same living quarters or neighborhoods with colored folks who also realize that they should stay among their own elements for the most part. We'll be looking for further development, sincerely yours. Here's one from Boston I want to read. Now let's skip that. Here's one from Boston. Way in a large city in the far west. And so man, I'm gonna give you his name, not going to give you his city for a reason. Use the next letter I'm going to read. I didn't write any of this. It's postmarked in a large city in California by a medical doctor named Weinberg, addressed to me, the iron is for the idea is excellent. Those hypocrites can dish it out, but you have them at their Achilles heel. They can't take it. Keep up the pressure. If they want equality, let them prove it. You're doing a good service in an important matter. Now here's one from Boston. Now I told you I didn't write these letters, especially to any members of the press here, but I'm reading them to you. You can inspect them later if you want to. Dress to me, June the 10th, from Boston. Congratulations on your good work in sending the Negroes to the north. The late Franklin D. Roosevelt never lifted a finger toward integration and carried the solid south for four turns. I suggest when talking to the reporters you ask for the names and addresses of those freedom riders to the South, Jews, ministers, rabbis, and so forth, and ask how many Negroes they want to take care of in their home. Also that Jew president of the NAACP in New York, Fingorn, how many he will take care of. Tell them also you're surprised none of the Negro lovers are meeting the Negroes up here who won't want South. The Jews are responsible for all this Negro trouble, and every politician, judges, police, and other public officials are living in fear of the Jews. A new KKK has been formed in the White House, Kennedy, Kosher, cabinet. The white people of the North are 98 percent with you white Southerners signed. Well, I've got some good ones, but I'm going to read this one. Here's one from a lady in Boston. In my opinion, the program which the Southern states have been forced to develop is exactly what is needed to quell the Northern politicians and various officials of government coercive pressures to subdue all rights to Southern states through illegal court decrees. I was all but frustrated by the laws being brought into action by Northern courts and judges impeding the Southerner in every step to reserve his own way of order regarding race relations. I feel somewhat encouraged by the recent Freedom Ride. North action. The enclosures is a small contribution and so forth. Now, I want to go into a little history with you. The NAACP was organized in 1909 in New York City by five people, four of them white people and extreme socialists. The other was a Negro named W.E.B. Du Bois, who is an admitted member of the Communist Party. It's true what was said in that letter, Arthur Spingorn of New York has a Communist front record that long. and he has been president of the NAACP since 1939 and he succeeded his uncle. And since 1909, no Negro has ever been president of the NAACP. Now the 1928, rather the Communist Party, and I have all the documents for everything I say and I'm well aware of the laws for civil action for slander and also criminal slander laws. And I have everything that I say documented, but in 20 minutes I can't go back to it. But in 1923, the American Communist Party was started here in 1919. Lenin issued orders, which I have documented, for the Communist Party to infiltrate the NAACP. The Communist Party has done so. The 1928 platform of the American Communist Party has been adopted by both the Democratic and Republican parties nationally, and everything that the 1928 American Communist platform stood for is now in effect in the United States of America pertaining to race relations except striking down the various laws against intermarriage like we have in Arkansas between. people of the Negro and Caucasian races. They have infiltrated all the way through. I can't develop that, but that is what happened. In the 1940s, Joseph Stalin, who was a great with his cohorts from the United States like Paul Robeson and others in W.E.B. Du Bois, developed a plan, and I have some maps of it. I couldn't find one to bring, but I do have a documentation of it with me. That they held out to the southern Negro that they were going to set up a black Soviet Republic of the South. That was in the 1940s. I want to develop that for you. The pro-communist... are calling the turn in most of the governmental actions in the United States today. Their methods, their theories and all, and it's being done through organizations like the NAACP, the Americans for Democratic Action Corps, and others. The United States, and they really took over when Mr. Franklin D. Roosevelt became president. That's when they moved in with Felix Frankfurter and a lot of his students like Alger Hiss. And Dean, he used to be Secretary of State, nevertheless he'll be back. What's his name? Dean Atkinson. Then the United States Supreme Court took over with their various Supreme Court rulings, knocking out restrictive clauses in housing, private housing in the 1940s, and they came on down when Judge that Scalawag from Charleston, South Carolina, Judge... Jay Waddy's wearing in the 1940s, 1948 I believe it was, said that the Democratic primary, the Democratic Party in the South was not a private political party and in effect out went the word white in the Democratic rules of the South. Up until that time it was a white party. And then we came on down to 1954 when we had the celebrated case of Brown versus Board of Education, about which we've had a lot of trouble. There was, in Montego, Tennessee, a Communist training school. The name of it is Highlander Folk School. I have pictures of it here. Highlander Folk School, it is a Communist training school. And I'm sure I'm right when I say the state of Tennessee closed it up two or three years ago. These Communists who have infiltrated all of these organizations in... trying to put into effect the black Soviet Republic of the South were training people there. Now there was a young Negro of talent going to Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia. He was graduated there and he went to Cozier, C-O-Z-I-E-R Seminary in Chester, Pennsylvania. And he came under the tutelage of a man named Chalmers, who has a long communist history. He saw a lot of—this fellow Chalmers had been trained. He'd been to Moscow, and he's on the advisory committee of core today, Congress on Racial Equality. He saw in this young man potential, and this fellow Chalmers had already—had also gone to India and had studied about Mahatma Gandhi, the nonviolent, violent passage situation. And who is this young man I'm talking about who is 33 years of age today? His name is Martin Luther King. He got a scholarship from Crozier Seminary and went to Boston University and obtained his doctorate, where he fell under the tutelage of some more of these people. So he was selected. They sent him to Highlander Folk School, and I have his picture with known communists. When he was a professor there in the fall of 1957, when you were hearing so much about Little Rock. He was there. And then what happened? They picked him. Remember Stalin's plan of a black Soviet republic of the South. Then next, they started this southern something Christian nonviolent movement and moved into Montgomery, Alabama. Who was the head of it? Dr. Martin Luther King. He became the darling of all the left-wing commentators and instability that ilk. controls the national radio, the national television, and the national news services. We know in Little Rock, and you do too if you observe, how many times have you seen Dr. Martin Luther King on Meet the Press or Issues and Answers? And Harry Aschmo and people like that, how many times have you seen, what let us say, Orville Falbert? never has seen Amos Guttons on there either, except in a derisive smear of proposition. Anyhow, this thing was going along. Well, the national television, national newspapers and all picked up Dr. Martin Luther King, and he was immediately projected into a position of prominence all over the United States and, I guess, the world. And then what happened? In 1961, to fight for their rights and so forth, there was an organization called CORE. knew by any means. And I have the documentation. The people that are on the advisory board of core, you can't prove that they have communist cards, but you can prove that they are pro-communist in all of their acts. And I have it here, and it's loaded with pro-communists, just like the NAACP is. And it's an interesting thing. that the leaders in core are also leaders in NAACP. It's all interchanged. They're all locked up together. And they're under the leadership of a lot of white people like Eleanor Roosevelt and others too numerous to mention. What did they come south for in 1961? They came south to cause trouble. And I'll find before this situation's over a quote where the head of the American Communist party named Gus Hall, whose real name is Yorberg or something like that, I have it there. He's head of the secretary, general secretary of the American Communist Party. He says that we must get into these things and foment strife and trouble, and the idea is to bring on a revolution and the Soviets take over the United States, and the poor Negro will be a slave of the Red Master. They don't care anything about the Negro. But nevertheless, They did this with the official, or rather unofficial, sanction of high members of the government of the United States, these Freedom Rides they called in 1961. When they moved into Montgomery, Alabama and Birmingham and Jackson, Mississippi, and I have it documented here that Robert Kennedy, the Attorney General of the United States, called the manager of the Greyhound bus terminal in Birmingham, Alabama. the bus drivers, 15 minutes, when the bus drivers would not take the bus out with all of those Negro and white agitators on the bus, Robert Kennedy called him and told him, you better call Mr. Greyhound or somebody and get a driver for that bus, so he can't get one. So he'll get a Negro driver, so he can't get one, so to hell, go out and find one. And I have pictures of Robert Kennedy sitting up all night at his desk calling the mayor of Montgomery. and the governor of Alabama, Governor Patterson, and trying to order those state officials and the city officials of Montgomery around and interceding in this thing, and I also have quotations from him where he says that he helped plan it, and he told this manager, the Greyhound Bus Line, said, we've worked hard to organize this, and we want those riders to go through. So there's Robert Kennedy, the brother of the president of the United States and the man who's in charge of the FBI and, of course, the whole Department of Justice. Now, one other thing, since time is short. I've got about a two-week talk in 20 minutes here. In the May issue of Harper's Magazine, May 1962, there's an article in there by Louis Lomax. Louis Lomax is a Negro, and he writes pro-Negro articles. And the name of that article is the Kennedy's Move on Dixie. You get it and read it. And in that, you know what they say, Robert Kennedy, Jack Kennedy, according to this writer. They say that they're going to get the vote for all of those Negroes. There are 131 counties in the South where there are more Negroes than there are whites. And we're going to elect Negro congressmen from the South. And it goes, it's all through there. The Kennedys move on Dixie. And it goes without saying. If they do that, you'll have Negro county judges, Negro sheriffs, Negro circuit judges, Negro city councilmen and all. And now I say... that this thing in Albany, Georgia started in early July. Why did it start? Dr. Martin Luther King. I say that is to be the implementation of Joseph Stalin's plan in the 1940s to have a black Soviet Republic of the South. And I've got quotations from communist leaders in America today that said, we must get the federal government to come in with troops and enforce the civil rights of the Negroes. So there's the plan, ladies and gentlemen. I had to do it hastily, but after this meeting, I'll be glad to show you anything about what you doubt, about what I'm saying. But now the Freedom Rides North, I've already read you something about that. I'll let the people from Boston and other places argue our case for us on that. But I will say this. We're going to educate those people of the North, those good white people who are in the majority because they don't know. But when they've encountered some of the problems that we have, Maybe we can come to a better understanding. Thank you very much. Moderator: Freedom Rides South against those North Winslow Drummond. Drummond: Mr. Chairman, Mr. Guthridge, ladies and gentlemen, I also would like to reiterate everything Mr. Guthridge said with regard to the programs you are conducting here, particularly the work of the Fayetteville Junior Chamber of Commerce. It's virtually impossible for me to define this as a debate in that my text bears little or no resemblance to Mr. Gossard's discussion. In any event, I'm going to proceed in the manner in which I've prepared my discussion, and perhaps we'll iron these things out later on. As I see it, we have to discuss Freedom Rides North and South in terms of legality and morality. volumes have been written on the possible corollary between these two things. But by and large if you measure legality and morality on the same yardstick, morality often outgrips legality. For example, it is my guess that in a Southern community like Fayetteville, the community morality would suggest or dictate that all school children each morning acknowledge the existence of and express words of appreciation to a supreme being. But our legal system prohibits this. In other words, morality has outstripped legality on the yardstick. Because these two things are not correlated in a given area, we often find that immoral conduct continues unabated because it does continue to fall within the sphere of legally permissible conduct. And is this not precisely the description of the so-called reverse freedom ride of which Mr. Guthridge is a leading proponent? If we examine the reverse freedom ride from a legal standpoint, we find only that a group of citizens has invited individuals of a particular race to remove themselves from the community without the necessity of incurring personal travel expenses. The invitation is made in a country where every citizen has the constitutional right to travel from state to state unimpeded. The movement is entirely voluntary. The incentive offered is a minimum incentive, a one-way bus ticket. It's all very legal. But let me interject this at this time, and here I am talking strictly in terms of an hypothesis. If, and I emphasize the if. If. the Capitol Citizens Council has represented to a freedom rider that Hyannis, Massachusetts is a land of milk, honey, and full employment. And if this representation has been made with the intent to induce a rider to travel up there to his own detriment, if, and I emphasize the if, if this has taken place, the membership of the Capitol Citizens Council could well be exposed to a very tidy judgment for damages. But this is the only possible legal sanction, and it would have to be an after-the-fact legal sanction. So I think it is safe to assume that reverse freedom rides are perfectly legal. But let's look at it from a moral standpoint. That is, in light of accepted standards of community decency. and community justice. The Reverse Freedom Ride is characterized by a number of things. First, individual human beings, and more particularly, United States citizens, have been reduced to the status of livestock being shipped to market. Their fare has been paid, space has been purchased for them on a bus, and they depart with the status of merchandise. In the newspapers and in this very auditorium this evening, you have heard quoted the statistics in the Capitol Citizens Council box score, which is gleefully kept current and mounts rapidly as little children are sent off with their parents. How many of these 57 people were, in fact, small children? All of this seems to provide some kind of special satisfaction to the Capitol Citizens Secondly, the Capitol Citizens Council is preying on the minds of the ignorant and the poverty stricken, holding open the door to so-called greener pastures with tongue in cheek all the while. And third, the Capitol Citizens Council members have had not one decent motive in carrying out the entire program. They have stated openly and brazenly, here are the seeds. And in the newspaper. They are trying to harass citizens of other states, that they're trying to annoy and personally embarrass the President of the United States, and that they view this whole thing as nothing more than a practical joke being played on people who live several hundred miles to the north. Have you seen photographs of the council members bidding farewell to travelers at Little Rock bus stations? In my opinion, smiles on their faces reflect a very, very sick sense of humor. It's not enough to say the joke is backfired because it is indeed no joke at all. The anger of the entire world, including the people of our own state, has been voiced in editorials, magazine articles, television and radio commentary, and in other public forums. The distaste for reverse freedom rise is universally held by people of all political faiths, of all economic classes, north and south. It is condemned not only by the militant elements favoring desegregation, It is even condemned by some of the staunchest segregation. The Citizens Council has sought to make pawns out of American citizens. And in a nation where we value the dignity of human beings above all else, we deplore irresponsible tactics. Council has caused our state and our city to again become emblazoned in headlines around the world, headlines of disgrace and dishonor. They have even gone so far as to provide first-class accommodations for a goat. They sent a goat to Hyannis, Massachusetts, to a selectman of Barnstable Township, announcing that this was a delicacy savored by the Arkansas Negro on the 4th of July. They slipped their sides with laughter over this. Every thinking citizen in Arkansas was nauseated by it. Assuming that all of this is legal. It is obvious that the reverse freedom ride cannot meet the standard for morality in the community, in this country, or in the world. The law is not the answer to this thing. The law can do nothing and indeed it should not do anything. The answer lies with you the people, individually and collectively. and whispered statements of dismay will not do the job. Right now in Arkansas, we need a genuine public outburst against this type of activity. This activity and its proponents must be shamed into silence. Now, if you're reluctant to base an appeal against the reverse freedom rides on a moral persuasion, let's look at this thing economically for a moment. During the 1950s, approximately one and a half million non-whites left the South. We know that our state was one of three to suffer a loss of population, approximately 10 percent, during the decade. We sit here and we cry for industry, and we cry for new jobs. We're not overpopulated with Negroes in Arkansas. Twenty-three of our counties have a non-white population of under one percent. 18 others, a Negro population of 18 or 15 percent or less. A valuable human resource, in effect, is being wasted here. And it is being augmented by the Reverse Freedom Ride. The Reverse Freedom Ride's augmentation of the migration north is infinitesimal as far as numbers go. It doesn't amount to a hill of beans. But it is catastrophic to the state of Arkansas if this is interpreted as the public policy of our state to get rid of its native citizens. We cry for industrial jobs on one hand, and then we turn right around and permit racial strife to keep industries and factories out of our state until we can demonstrate some degree of racial harmony in the context of a surplus labor market. No factories are going to be built here. I would like now to turn to Freedom Ride South. Going back to this initial statement about legality and morality, I will overgeneralize and then later attempt to shatter my own generalization by saying that Freedom Rides South are illegal, but they are highly moral. When I refer to the illegality, that is in the context of state laws and local ordinances which prohibit pro-desegregation demonstrations such as sit-ins, mass prayer meetings, and the Freedom Ride. The Freedom Ride generally involves a racially mixed group, students and clergymen, who come into a city with a great deal of advance publicity. They then attempt to obtain dining service at a lunch counter or dining room in a transportation center. to which they have been delivered by an interstate carrier, such as a bus, plane, or train. Their movements are always distinguished by a complete lack of spirited talk. There is no belligerent and certainly no actual violence. When they arrive in town, so does a large crowd. The crowd is made up of curiosity seekers, among them an inordinate number of teenagers. other travelers who are frequenting the same eating establishments, and a very few vociferous agitators. And as soon as that happens, along comes Mr. John Law. He may arrive before the crowd gets there, but he certainly will arrive after the crowd gets there. He announces that the peace and good order of the community would best be served if the riders got back on their bus. The riders remain passive. The constable then says, a race riot is imminent, the lives and property of our citizens are threatened, and I will save the day and arrest the rioters. And off they go to jail. Now, we have said freedom rides are illegal in the context of this type of law, but are they actually illegal? These demonstrations have all taken place in restaurant facilities operated in interstate commerce. By federal regulation of the Interstate Commerce Commission, racial segregation in such facilities is prohibited. The United States Supreme Court has held to the same effect. Even our constable friend will admit that federal law controls here and that he understands it, but he argues further, I am acting to preserve lives and property threatened by mob violence. This would be fine except for the completely passive conduct of the freedom riders. So we ask ourselves, what about this constable who has exercised his good judgment? Are not his actions legal? He's trying to preserve peace and harmony in the community. Is he not properly exercising the police power granted to him? The answer to each of these questions is an emphatic no. The Freedom Riders, as already pointed out, remain passive. They only exercise rights already guaranteed to them by the Constitution of the United States. The only threat to law and order in this type of situation is the welcoming committee, which could better be termed the mob. If the police power is to be directed anywhere, it should be to the mob. True the Freedom Riders partially caused this mob to assemble, but the assembly itself is lawful. Now, we've seen here in our own state how local law enforcement properly handles this type of situation. In August 1959, the Little Rock School Board reopened its schools on a desegregated basis, pursuant to a federal court order. A mass meeting was held on the steps of the State Capitol Building on the morning school open. I saw this meeting from the window of an office building across the street, and Mr. Guthridge, I believe, was among those present at the time. The meeting was convened by an invitation by a Little Rock pastor. Several hundred persons were there. A number of speeches were made in the name of state rights, democracy, and even Christianity. Small children who could barely toddle around were carrying Confederate flags, and they cheered whenever their parents told them to do so. Many of these same persons then left the state capitol and headed for Little Rock Central High School and had the utter gall to do so in the name of the United States, the state of Arkansas, and in the name of God. Before they reached the high school, they encountered the late police chief, Gene Smith, and you know what happened. Now, the federal court helped to cause this mob by ordering the schools open, but Gene Smith didn't move against the federal court. The presence of Negro children in Little Rock Central High School helped cause this mob, but Gene Smith didn't imprison them or even remove them from the schools. The speakers on the Capitol step certainly helped to cause this mob. You should have heard some of the things that were said. But Gene Smith didn't arrest them. they were exercising their rights under a constitution which they turned around a few minutes later and tried to subvert. No, Gene Smith stepped into the picture only when a clear and present danger was presented by the mob to lives and property in the neighborhood of the high school. The police power was properly directed in that instance, and that is where it should have been directed. And the same applies to your freedom rider demonstration. The mob is the dangerous element, not these passive people sitting and eating a meal. What I'm getting at is this, constitutional rights in this country cannot be diluted or canceled merely because they may provoke lawless conduct by others. And the point was made perfectly clear in the opinion of the United States Circuit Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit in the Little Rock School case of Aaron against Cooper. These are great words. Listen to them. The time has not yet come in these United States when an order of a federal court must be whittled away or shamefully withdrawn in the face of violence. Going a bit further, even if we can see the legality of the freedom riders, are they not a bunch of rabble-rousers? And to this question comes the ready answer, if they're rabble rousers, are we not the rabble? and what is wrong with rabble rousers anyway. When Patrick Henry said, I care not course what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty and give me death, he wasn't calling for a spelling bee. You look at words like this, what country has existed a century and a half without rebellion? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. They're not the words of Karl Marx, they're the words of Thomas Jefferson. Our American forefathers exhorted men even to the point of war. Rouse the rabble, my friends, they advocated and achieved the overthrow of established government by force and violence. If I may paraphrase the words of the Smithers. We revere these men for their conduct, and yet we look at scant that modern-day rabble-rousers who act entirely within the law because they may tend to upset our way of life down here. Rabble rousing of the most despicable sort has enjoyed legal protection in this country for years. It's part of our American tradition. It's the cornerstone of our Bill of Rights and the First Amendment. What I'm saying here is that fighting words, fighting actions are permitted so long as they remain within the sphere of ideas. I've attempted here and perhaps badly to affect some kind of transition from legality to morality by putting it in the context of American tradition. It should be interesting to note that no freedom rider here is running around in disguise. He's not trying to avoid law enforcement. To the contrary, the freedom rider is deliberately exposing himself to possible violence, to the penalties of laws as they are on the books now, and might say they are placing themselves on an altar of imprisonment, derision, and even pain. If you view such conduct completely in the abstract, is there anything which more closely approaches our concept of the epitome of morality? Freedom Riders seek to effect change through orderly processes of law. They are offering themselves as a test case for eventual presentation to the United States Supreme Court. One such case was decided by the Court on June 4th of this year. They are convinced that their cause is just and that the law which they desire will emerge. And in the meantime, they swallow whatever is dished out. Our entire system has developed through this method what is referred to as civil disobedience, a willingness to violate the law and endure the appropriate punishment. in the hope that an unjust law might thereby be nullified by judicial decision or legislative enactment. Civil disobedience was the trademark of Henry David Thoreau, and it was advocated by someone no less than Mr. Justice Story of the United States Supreme Court, who stated a century ago, the privilege of bringing every law to the test of the Constitution belongs to the citizens who owes no obedience to any legislative act which transcends the constitutional limits. So finally, you must ask yourself this question. Even though we don't like freedom riders down here, and we don't like what they're trying to impress on our society, are they to be condemned as illegal, immoral, and un-American? And second, a more personal question, if you will. Would I, if I believed in something strongly enough— have the gut to endure what the freedom riders are enduring in pursuance of their objectives. It seems to me that in a world torn between two competing ideologies, in a world where we are interested in maintaining strength and unity with other nations, the Southern States have perhaps lost their perspective as to what are the crucial issues of this decade. How long are we going to continue cursing the federal government, cursing the federal courts, as we dispense in quantity heartaches, turmoil, and even blood in an attempt to forestall the inevitable? This, for all of us as citizens, is preeminently the time for a re-evaluation of our role as American citizens and a re-dedication to the cause of social justice for all mankind. Moderator: in rebuttal, Mr. Guthridge. Guthridge: The Freedom Riders of 1961, so dear to the heart of Mr. Drummond, admit that they spent eight million dollars a week, eight million dollars a week on those rides. They, according to the United States News and World Report of May the 7th, 1962, they had a training school in Miami, Florida, and I know they had one in Houston, Texas and other places. to train these riders, both white and Negro, to come into the South again this year. I want to ask, and others have asked, where is that money coming from to support those freedom riders, those agitators who come into the South with the idea of getting arrested and the idea of getting in jail? When Martin Luther King gets in jail, he gets mad when some unknown person pays his bond. That's a part of the plan. Now when almost a hundred ministers, rabbis, clergymen from New Jersey and New York, they both white and colored, block traffic, Parade around without a permit from the city of Albany, Georgia, created disturbance. They're referred to by Mr. Drummond and the national press as groups. But if a white group meets anywhere, it's a mob. Now you listen and you watch for that. Now Mr. Drummond dwells a lot on headlines that we've caused all over the world. Mr. Drummond, and I want to say to this audience, you have seen no headline. But those that are coming, unless this agitation, backed by the Communist Party of the United States, which is backed by the international communist conspiracy, formulating racial strife in the South, you've seen no headlines yet, and you'll be lined up one way or the other because they won't be able to tell you from me. And that's sad but true. That is the plan. And it's working, and I didn't hear any rebuttal about that. Now, about how much money did we spend in Little Rock, sending those 57 people? We spent less than $3,000 total in two months. And we have over 40 on the waiting list. With the difference between the core Freedom Riders South and the Freedom Riders North, we don't have any more money. We're not backed by the unseen organizations and... money from foundations and so forth tax exempt in the large northern and eastern cities. But none of our people have come back to my knowledge that we've sent. We do have over 40 who want to go. And a lot of them, most of them up there are doing real well. And well, thank you very much. Moderator: in rebuttal, Mr. Drummond. Drummond: Dr. Guthridge mentioned that $8 million a week was being spent on Freedom Rides South. I guess I should have mentioned that in addition to blood, pain, and derision, they're also enduring substantial stock in the pocketbook. As I gathered in listening to Mr. Guthridge's remarks, we are confronted here with a plot by the NAACP, CORE, the Communist Party, Jews, the ghost of Franklin D. Roosevelt, and others. Frankly, in listening to them, I almost wanted to join all of those groups. They sound quite appealing. Incidentally, I noticed in the Northwest Arkansas Times this afternoon that I had been referred to the Junior Chamber of Commerce by a former counsel for the NAACP. I think it might be well to state at this time, I do not belong to the NAACP, to CORE, to the Communist Party. I am a Protestant. I am a Democrat. A great point has been made here that hypocrisy exists in the North, that segregation exists in the North, and that is all very true. I've lived in the North. I was born there. I was brought up in the South. I decided to go North to college. I came back to the South to law school and decided to live in the South. There is segregation in the North, and there is hypocrisy in the North, but that does not justify the reverse freedom ride in any way. The issue here is how we handle our own problems and how we value individual human beings, more particularly our own native citizens here in the state of Arkansas. As I see it, that issue has not yet been discussed by the other side. Moderator: The floor is now open for questions to be demanded. Are there any questions for you, ladies and gentlemen? Question is, by meeting the reverse freedom ride, did Ted Kennedy encourage the people to come up north? Drummond: I think perhaps he did. I am sure that a Little Rock Negro in a situation where he would want to take advantage of a bus ride of this kind would look forward to the opportunity to meet the President's brother, if nothing else, particularly if the transportation was paid for. As I mentioned in the course of my initial discussion, the numbers involved here doesn't amount to anything. The 57 people. They don't amount to anything. The fact that so many others are waiting, and it's interesting to note the Citizens Council is having a hard time getting money to send them. That's not the important thing. Because we're not concerned so much with the numbers, despite the glee the Citizens Council seems to take in the numbers. We should be concerned more. about the fact that we are casting an image to the entire world that Arkansas is sending its people away. That's the thing that hurts, and that's what hurts when your Junior Chamber of Commerce or the Little Rock Junior Chamber of Commerce tries to bring some kind of industry into our state to develop a state and our economy is sliding. We're trying to keep pace with the rest of the country, and then we display this kind of thing to the rest of the world. That, in my opinion, is what we should be concerned about, not the fact that Ted Kennedy has perhaps encouraged a few people to come north. I don't think that'll make the slightest dent in this migration. It's not gonna step it up at all. Moderator: Mr Guthridge, do you think the South would be better off with an all-fight population? Guthridge: I never had thought of that. We've always had Negro people here. We have, and we've always gotten along well comparatively speaking, especially since the days of slavery. The Negro people in the South have made more progress in a hundred years than the Negro race did from time beginning up until that time. But we've got a long fine here. And this communist... projected situation to cause racial tension in the South is destined to upset it. I have great affection for the Negro people, but that doesn't mean that I want to go all the way of what the Communist Party is espousing in social mixture and amalgamation and mongolization, which is exactly what we're having in other parts of the United States, which you know, and it's being applauded. intermarriage and so forth. I'm against that, but I just never had thought about that, about whether or not we should have, that we'd be better off if we had an all-white South. But I will say this to you, for all the Negroes that are dissatisfied in the South, I for one will be glad to help send them to New England, the dissatisfied ones, to the place where they were first... brought from the teeming jungles of Africa to the shores of New England by those Yankee traders there, the forebears of those people that are yelling so loudly up there today. When they couldn't stand the cold weather at that time out of the jungles of Africa there, what did they do? The traders took them on their boats and headed to the fourth largest port in the United States, one time the largest, I think Charleston, South Carolina, and New Orleans, Louisiana. And they do say... and other places along the southern seaboard. They do say that the sins of the fathers will be visited upon the third and fourth generations, I believe, in the Bible. And we are reaping today what our forefathers sowed when they brought those Negroes from Africa because God put those Negroes in Africa, and we're reaping that whirlwind. And I say that is the greatest sin. that has ever been perpetrated by the Caucasian race. Moderator: Why was Hyannis Port picked as a place for the Freedom Riders to go? Mr Guthridge: The South has been the whipping boy of the northern politicians, northern educators, and certain northern clergymen for way more than a hundred years. Now the Negroes have infiltrated those northern cities to where they are the balance of power in those large electoral states in presidential elections and other elections. Very important to those politicians politically. If we send a few Negroes to Chicago, that's nothing. They have more Negroes in the city of Chicago today than we do in the state of Arkansas. We are trying to, we know that the majority of the white people in the North do not understand our problem because they can't. Many of them have never seen a Negro in small communities. We have received abuse and every form of oppression. by Robert Kennedy and plans for more, and others of his ilk like Jacob Javits, Senator Hubert Humphrey, Sophie Williams, and so forth. And what we plan to do is to send those who want to go, and they've all been happy about it, that have gone to places in the north where they will be seen. And we thought could think of no better place than Hyannis Port during the summer season where the millionaires from all over that part of the United States come, where there are a lot of jobs, and where they could be there were there are those who espouse this brotherhood like Robert Kennedy, alleged brotherhood, Robert Kennedy and others who have been conspicuously absent from Hyannis Port all summer up until recently. Where they could be there... and where we could make our point. And it's, we did more with the few hundred that have gone from the South this summer than all of the Freedom Riders South did. I've got an article there about the, how they had planned with these pro-communist teachers, that they had these schools. They were going to have freedom highways this summer. And you know what? They were going to start in May. And when the New Orleans Citizens Council started, sent their first Negroes out, that put the brakes on it. And if we have accomplished nothing else, we stopped. freedom riders south. And when they stop and get off of our backs, we'll stop. He said something about guts and you admire somebody that will stand up. Well, we will stand up. We believe in racial integrity. We're not against the Negro. But we may lose, we may win. But I'll tell you this in this citadel of liberalism in the state of Arkansas that fight will not go by default. Mr Guthridge: That's really good question, director. That's really good question. I agree with you. I want to read you something documented. This is in the Congressional record. There was a Well, I'm reading from this here. I will quote, verbatim, from yet another official Communist Party document of directive written by one Israel Cohen, a Communist Party top functionary in England. And this was written in 1913. That was a great year for the United States, too. among a lot of other things. This is a quote from Mr. Israel Cohen, a top communist functionary in England in 1913.