Diane Larrison interview with Ercell Ish

Diane Larrison interviews Ercell Ish about her family's history, her education in Little Rock's segregated school system in the 1930s, her career, and her marriage to George William Stanley Ish.
On-site file includes transcript and audio recording.
INTERVIEWEE: Ercell Ish INTERVIEWER: Diane Larrison DATE: May 14, 1979 TOPIC: LITTLE ROCK WOMEN ***** DL: This is Diane Larrison. Today is May 14, 1979, and I'm visiting with Mrs. Ercell Ish. Mrs. Ish, let's begin with your telling me something about your background. Who were your parents and where were they from ? EI: I was born Ercell Tucker. I was born in Shreveport, Louisiana and my parents were Mr. and Mrs. Leonell Tucker, both from Louisiana, both from Shreveport. I attended elementary, secondary, and high school in Shreveport and graduated from Central High School there. I entered Dunbar Junior College here in Little Rock and graduated from there, then entered Wiley College in Marshall, Texas. Graduated with an A.B. degree, with a major in sociology and a minor in biology. After graduating from Wiley College in Texas I came back to the state of Arkansas to teach. I taught for one year at a small place called Wabbaseka, Arkansas
two years at Capitol Hill School here in Little Rock before being transferred to what was then Dunbar High School, where I taught science. I taught science at Dunbar until Booker Junior High School was built and the faculty was divided. Half was left at Dunbar and half was sent to Booker, and I was sent to Booker. About 1965, five black teachers were selected to integrate faculties in Little Rock, four for elementary schools and one for the high school. I was selected to go to the high school which was Metropolitan High School. I was the first black faculty member placed in a high school in the city, the first black faculty member there at Metropolitan. I had many interesting experiences at Metropolitan! I must say that it wasn't easy at first because many of the students, well, all of the students, had never had the experience of having had a black teacher before. DL: Was it all white in '65? EI: Yes. There were few blacks there then but it was predominantly white. But I was the first black teacher that they had had. And of course— DL: How did you feel, you know, about being one of the chosen ones at that time? EI: I felt, I felt very good. 1 felt that it was an honor for the persons at the Little Rock School District to feel that I could go into a situation like this and, at first— PAUSE DL: You were saying that you were proud to be one of the selected teachers and—? EI: Yes, I was. But I felt a little, I felt that I didn't want to let them down after they had selected me but things were not as easy for me as I thought they would be when I first got there. But, after the first six-weeks marking period, things began to ease up because of a particular thing. At that time you graded citizenship either "good," "fair," or "poor," I think it was. And most of the students, with the exception of a very few, had been very ugly in some instances, but when they received their citizenship cards, I had "good" on every card. So they were a little shocked because they knew that I was going to put—it was not "bad," it was another word, I can't remember the term that was used for, it was "unsatisfactory" citizenship,"unsatisfactory"—so, they were shocked. And one or two of them did mention it to me, so I told them this, I said, "I put that there because I knew 1 was your first black teacher. You had not had the experience of dealing with a black teacher before. You had been told some things and you didn't know any better. Now that I have been here six weeks, you know me well enough to know that I am not all that has been said, that I'm just a human being and I'm here to teach and I want you to learn. So that's why I expect you the next six weeks, now that you've known me for six weeks, I think that is long enough for high school students." And things began to ease up. So I always mention that little incident because I think it's worth mentioning. DL: Right. What about your acceptance among the faculty ? EI: Very good. I had very few problems with the exception of some coolness in some areas, but that soon cleared up. Because for some reason I never had any qualms about being black. I never did. 1 always felt that I could fit into any situation and I felt that if anybody wanted to accept me, good, if not, that was their problem. DL: Well, did the fact that you were having to take on this situation place a lot of pressure on you? EI: Yes, it did. Yes, it did. DL: Were you nervous and upset a lot? EI: Yes, yes I was, to the point where I told my husband, who was living at the time, "I don't think I'm going to be able to." He said, "Oh, you can do it." And of course things did... But when I was placed at Metropolitan I was placed there—see, I was in junior high, in Booker—and I was placed there with the understanding that I would be, when things cleared off and the faculty became upgraded, I would be placed back in a junior high school. So, by that time they were ready to—I taught in Metropolitan for two years and then Henderson Junior High had been built--so they sent two black faculty members to Henderson. So a young man and I were sent to Henderson. And I taught at Henderson for two years and of course I didn't have, with the exception of one or two problems that they are still having, that you are going to have anyway, I had a few problems there. But nothing to the point... EI: Well I, after I had been at Henderson two years, I was not well. I took a year's sick leave. Then when I, when my year of sick leave was up, I decided I would not go back in the classroom, but I went into Pupil Personnel. That's the first time I had had a chance to do anything where my major was concerned, which was sociology. DL: Was that a counseling type position? Yes. It's a counseling type position. It's where I was based at a junior high school and I assisted with problems the students were having. I assisted with attendance problems and I made home visits and talked with parents. DL: Now, was it all schools? EI: Yes. All this was connected with the Little Rock Public Schools, yes. So, I went there for two years where I counseled with black and white parents. DL: Was that something that you enjoyed? EI: I enjoyed it. But, I had planned to come out after two years for early retirement. DL: That's when you retired? EI: That's when I retired. DL: Well now, when you were at Metropolitan and at Henderson, did you teach science? EI: Yes, I taught science at Dunbar, Metropolitan, Henderson, and Booker. I taught science at all those schools. Now, when I left Pupil Personnel the reason, I guess, one of the main reasons I left there was because I was offered work at Philander Smith College. And I left Pupil Personnel and went to Philander Smith College where I have been for the last eight years. DL: Oh, you're still there ? EI: Yeah, I'm still there. DL: And what is your position at Philander? EI: I teach in the Department of Education. I teach a course in Methods of Teaching Elementary Science. And then I teach a course in Introduction to Education, which involves planning for teaching. DL: To go back, to go way back, Mrs. Ish, in your childhood, let's start there. Did you have brothers and sisters? EI: Yes, I had four, there was four of us. My mother had four daughters, she had four daughters. I lost a sister two summers ago and then I lost my younger sister last summer. So that leaves the two of us. DL: Now, what was your father's occupation? My father was a valet, in one of those leading hotels there in Shreveport. DL: Which hotel was that? EI: Washington Youree Hotel* in Shreveport, he was there for 45 years. He ran the valet department for 45 years. And my mother was a seamstress. DL: Now what kind of values did your parents try to impart to you girls, or how were you raised? EI: Mostly moral values, aesthetic values, intellectual values. DL: What was your home life? Did you, were you—first of all, were you four girls, were you very close in age? EI: No, we were—my oldest sister who still, the first and third still lives. (Apparently both look at a photograph of Mrs. Ish's family. A few inaudible exchanges follow, commenting on the photograph.) DL: Now what, first of all what are your sisters'names? EI: Susie Hendrix* is my oldest sister. She is a retired teacher in Shreveport. [Then came] Josephine Brown,* she was a caterer in Los Angeles. A cateress, I guess you would say. And Frances taught in Shreveport. DL: Did she marry? EI: Yes, she has one son, my mother had four daughters and one grandson. She's the only one of us who had a child. DL: And now what was her name? EI: Frances Walton.* DL: And what was your given name? EI: Tueker. DL: I mean your first name? EI: Ercell. E-R-C-E-L-L. DL: So you were not real close in age. Were there certain things that were expected of you around the house, did you girls pitch in? EI: Yes, we pitched in. I tell a little joke all the time about—Josephine and I were closer in age—and of course we had certain things we'd do, she'd wash the dishes. At that time we didn't have the, inside, you know, you washed the dished in a dishpan. And you put the other dishes in—you don't know anything about that—in another pan. And of course her job was to wash the dishes and mine was to dry them. And I would always put off till the last minute. She said, "Okay you better hurry up and dry the dishes 'cause papa will be here soon." And I'd say, "Okay, I'm going to dry them," but he'd catch me every day that I dried them. And I got a spanking for not drying them. Now, I was a root beer maker. I loved to make root beer. And I would make the root beer and count my bottles. And we had a big old house, too, and we had a big thing called an armoire—we called them "armers" but I understand they're armoires now—they're big dressers where you hung your clothes on both sides with the two mirrors. And I would put my root beer in the bottom drawer and count the bottles and of course they would go in and steal them. When I'd go back to look for my root beer, I'd raise cain. And of course Josephine was the teacake maker. She loved to bake teacakes. So, but Frances was always the quiet one. She never did much. She was spoiled, she was a baby. DL: Now, I don't know about making root beer, tell me how you make root beer. EI: Well, you get the malt. And you have, I have the, I'll show you the bott1ecapper. I have the bottlecapper of my mother's. (Mrs. Ish apparently shows the bottlecapper.) You put it in a, one of these big kegs, well, crocks, you call them. And you let it stay for two or three days until it foams, and you put a 10 little yeast cake in it. And then you bottle it. And it was very good, it was very good. DL: Did you sell it, or did you — EI: No, no. I just liked it, and I liked to know if I put 10 bottles in that drawer, I want—now if you want to come to me and ask me for a bottle, all right. DL: Describe your mother for me. EI: My mother — (Mrs. Ish apparently shows photograph.) DL: Oh, she's a beauty. EI: My mother was beautiful and lovely. Beautiful and a very, very lovely person. DL: What was her personality? PAUSE... You were describing your mother for me and she was a very beautiful woman? EI: Very beautiful woman, and a very kind person. Loved people, she was a devout church-worker, sang in the choir and, incidentally, Frances had a beautiful voice, she sang in the choir. And Susie plays for the choir now, my older sister. Because she did finish music and she plays very well. I play a little but I never really learned to play well because I always had this tendency to play by ear. And you know that's bad, and so I finally gave up. All I wanted you to do was play the piece over for me one time, and then I'd play it. DL: Oh, but that's talent and it's fun. EI: But I'd tell them, "I play enough to entertain myself." My mother of course was born in Shreveport, and her father, my grandfather, was a musician. He played the organ at our church, and the organ that our church, which is St. Paul United Methodist Church in Shreveport, it just had to get rid of the organ that was given in his memory years ago. A very wealthy white woman in Shreveport, who loved to hear him play the organ, gave this organ to the church. And they finally, they had it worked on and worked on until they finally had to get rid of it. DL: Now, what was your mother's maiden name? EI: Walker, Walker. DL: And what was her first name? EI: Willie. Willie Walker.* DL: Did she ever tell you girls that you had to, that you were supposed to act a certain way ? EI: Oh yes. DL: Was it important to be ladylike? EI: Oh yes. It was very, very, very evident that she wanted us to be, so much so, sometimes I think maybe too much so. She was a stickler for those things that reflected good breeding. DL: How were you supposed to act? EI: Well, you were not supposed to chew gum in public, and you were not supposed to talk in church, and you were supposed to keep your things, your clothes, up to par all the time, never wear anything that needed a button on it. Because, of course, she was a seamstress. And my mother had an unusual talent, because she sewed out by the day for the wealthy whites there in Shreveport. And she would go downtown and sketch. PAUSE....(Mrs. Ish answers the telephone.) DL: Now you were saying your mother sewed - did you call it, "out by the day?" EI: Yes, by the day. DL: Did you say she would go and sketch? EI: The people would see dresses in the window downtown and she would go down and she would go down and sketch those dresses, and come back and cut the pattern out with newspaper and make those dresses exactly as she had sketched them in the window. She had an unusual talent in that direction. DL: Well now, would she sew for, white women or—? EI: Yes, white women, white women. Sewed out five days a week. She'd go at 8:30 in the morning and come home at 3:30 in the afternoon for $3 a day. DL: And I imagine she sewed for you girls. EI: Oh yes, she made all of our clothes. Yes, my sister and I reminisce quite often about our Easter dresses. At that time pongee was a fabric and of course, my mother made us, it was understood that we'd have a pongee dress for Easter. Smocked. She did the smocking and it was beautiful smocking. We'd look forward and we laugh now. At that time, children wore shirts and what you call unions, which is undergarments and they were long, that you wore under you because everybody was afraid somebody would catch a cold. I think you caught more then than you do now though, because of all these clothes they made you wear. So we looked forward to Easter because we were going to come out of our union suits. And we laughed that if it was the slightest bit cool at Easter time my mother wouldn't let us, we'd have to roll them up under our Easter dresses. I think people were overprotective at that time. DL: Didn't know quite how you got colds? EI: No, no, that's right. DL: Well, now, how about your dad? Tell me about him. EI: My father was born in Shreveport and, of course, as a young man—his mother was a nurse—and he was one of the few young men who were sent away to school. He was sent to Tuskegee. My father was at Tuskegee during Booker T. Washington's time. DL: Did he know him? EI: Yes. But he didn't stay, he didn't graduate. He went to take this course in tailoring and this work that he worked with—men's valet service—cleaning, pressing and tailoring, and he came back home. And of course, he and my mother married very early, very young. And they, he worked in a laundry for a long time in the alteration and tailoring department before he went to this hotel, Washington Youree Hotel, where he stayed until his death. DL: Did he have much influence on you girls or was he home enough? EI: He wasn't home enough, really. He had some influence, my father was a very strict disciplinarian. Very, very, very strict. So much so until—we say sometimes we almost thought he was cruel—to the point of being so strict. Because he expected so much of us as youngsters until we were a little on the--oh, I don't know what you would call it, I don't know what word I'm looking for here—not nervous, but when you would go out, we were so anxious about watching the clock, because papa had said to get back at a certain time. And we knew we had to get back or we were going to catch it. So he was that way. And we were afraid of him, really. We were just absolutely afraid of him, which was bad. And it worried my mother, very much. My mother worried so much about it, because she knew he was not exactly fair in his relationship to expect so much of us as youngsters. So much so till Josephine left home early, she left home. She did not finish high school. DL: Well, did you other girls, the rest of you girls did? EI: Yes, all the rest of us finished college. DL: Oh, I see. Well now, when you were young did you play with only black children? EI: Oh yes, only black children. DL: Were there any distinctions made about not playing with white children? EI: No, no. DL: That was just—came about naturally? EI: No, that just came about naturally. Yes, we were, of course we were in segregated schools in Shreveport. And we would fight along the way because we would come in contact with white children, coming from their schools, when we were coming home. I was going to school and we would push each other off the sidewalk. Nothing ever serious but it was just one of those things that happened back then, because that was just the way of life DL: Do you remember feeling, I mean—what were your feelings as a black child, were they--? EI: I was insecure as a black child because it was taught that. I mean you just felt that way because everybody was taught that you were inferior. And you came up feeling that way. DL: Now, were you taught that way by your parents? EI: No, no, you weren't taught that way by your—it was just a way of life for you in an area where you lived, where segregation was that way. And you just, that was just instilled in you as a child. You would go and Mrs.—the white woman was "Mrs."—my mother sewed for wealthy white women and they would call her and say, "May I speak to Willie?" And she said, "Yes, Mrs. so and so, I can come in the morning." Well, you see, we had heard that. And my father was "Lee," but Mr. Kinkaid, his boss, whom I will always remember, was "Mr." Kinkaid,* and he dare not call him. As angry as I've ever seen my father in his life was when a young white man called him "boy" in the bank one day...he came home. But there was nothing you could do about it. Well, you see, we grew up in that atmosphere and of course I think that is really the basis for so much bitterness now. Because I think, even as much as things have changed now, I think parents sit and tell their children these things. Even though they are practically in an integrated society now, to a point. I think the parents put a lot of bitterness in their children. And I don't quite agree with that. I think those things are things that have happened. There's no bitterness with me, there never was. Because when I came to Little Rock—of course, I must say that Little Rock was a much better place even in those days than living in Shreveport, very much, much better—and of course when I entered the University of Arkansas to get my master's degree I had all white teachers and white classmates, and we did very well together and that was long before the integration crisis here. We studied together. They'd come here and we'd study and we had projects together. And I never had any problems in that dire ction. DL: Well, how was Little Rock better than Shreveport? EI: Well, just generally, race relations were better. I don't know, I mean, people were involved in more activities where whites were concerned—always, you know, than in Shreveport. DL: Well, so it was never said to you that you needed to act a certain way to get along with whites or anything like that? EI: No, no, no, that was never— DL: That was just something you picked up? EI: That's right, that's right. DL: As a young girl, did you always expect to go to college and expect to have a career? Did your parents instill that in you? EI: I was always ambitious. And my mother instilled that in us. My mother worked very hard to see that we got an education, those of us who wanted it. That's why she sewed. Of course, salaries were very low and my father did not make much, but we always had a home. That was one thing my father bought when he married my mother, was a home. I'd see the people going across the street to collect rent—that people rented, you know—on houses. And that was foreign to us because we never knew anything about rent. We always had a home. Now we didn't always have modern conveniences. As time went by, I shall never forget when my father had the lights installed, and it was a big thing, you know, we were just so pleased. And then we had the bathroom put inside with a toilet and all. Well, we hadn't had that all the time. Of course, we were fortunate enough to have it for awhile while we were at home. But they were ambitious to the point that they wanted us to have the niceties of life and enjoy things. Of course, I was always ambitious. I left home first. I left home right after I finished high school, the others stayed around longer. DL: But then you left to go to school? EI: I left to come here. To enter Junior College, after I finished high school. DL: You came here first to Dunbar? EI: Yes, I went to Dunbar Junior, I mean Junior College. See, we had a Junior College then. DL: Now, how did you happen to come to Little Rock? EI: My sister had a very good friend who lived here. She had lived in Shreveport and she was a member of our church, and she had met a man here and married him. My sister married a physician in St. Louis. Well she married him his last year in medical school and she was teaching in a high school in Shreveport. She married him his last year in medical school. After he graduated from medical school he went to St. Louis to complete his internship and then she gave up her work in the high school and went to St. Louis to live. He served his internship and practiced one year and had pneumonia and died. So then she came back home to live and the summer that she came back home was the summer I graduated from high school. And this friend—at that time, they ran excursions from Shreveport on the train to Little Rock—and her friend was here and she asked me to come up. And I asked Susie if I could come, and she said yes, she gave me the money to come and that's how I got here. Because I was supposed to have gone to Wiley my first year, because Susie had graduated from Wiley. So I went back home and asked if I could come here and go here to Junior College because it would be cheaper, and I could live with this friend. So I did. So, I came here and went to Junior College and then when 1 finished Junior College, I went to Wiley down in Texas my last two years. Then when I came back to the state to teach I met Dr. Ish. I had known him before I left but, I mean, he had lost his wife. Now, he has, Dr. Ish has four children, had four children, and his older daughter and I are practically the same age. DL: Wow! Now, how old were you when you married Dr. Ish? EI: I was 24. DL: And how old was he? EI: He was 56. DL: Wow! So you were instantly a mother? EI: Yes, yes, right, I had four children suddenly. DL: How did that all work out? EI: Lovely, beautiful, I couldn't ask for a nicer relationship. I heard from all of them on Mother's Day. Now, he lost his son, the one that had just been made an American College of Surgeons in July. He had lung cancer and died in March, that was Stanley. So that leaves three children. Now, his older daughter, Harriet, lives in Memphis, she is married to Maceo Walker*...(Mrs. Ish apprently shows photographs.) Now, this is Dr. Ish. This is his son Stanley, the one we lost, and that's me. DL: Oh, how pretty. EI: This is Sue, his wife and of course, this is Dr. Powell* who was a dentist here. Now, Harriet is married to Maceo Walker, who is president of Universal Life Insurance Company in Memphis, and the Tristate Bank of Memphis. Now that's Dr. Ish's oldest daughter. The Commercial Appeal did this on him from Memphis. This is Candy, their baby girl who has just graduated from college, and this is Harriet. Now Harriet has three children and, of course, they are all in Memphis. DL: And she was the one who was your age? EI: Yes, that's right. DL: She accepted you? EI: Yes, because we had been friends before, you know. We were married, Dr. Ish and I, were married 29 and a years. And we had a very, very good marriage because he was the type of person who never seemed like an old person to me. He adjusted well to my group and I adjusted well to his group. He was one of those people who never bothered me about anything. If I wanted to go out to a party or anything and he didn't feel like going, he said, "Go on," or he went. But he, sometimes really, he liked to go more than I did. DL: Well now, what was his background? I mean as far as, what were his credentials? Was he an educator or— EI: Dr. Ish—I'll read it to you right here, this was a thing, (Mrs. Ish reads from an unidentified document, with comments interspersed.) He recieved a B.A. degree from Talladega College in Alabama, his mother's alma mater. Another B.A. from Yale University, and then he went to Harvard Medical School, where he was the only Negro in his graduating class. He was a general practitioner specializing in surgery. We had then what was known as United Friends Hospital and he was chief of the surgical staff there. But at the time of his death, he was a member of all the staffs at all the hospitals. He was a member of the state board of McRae Memorial Tuberculosis Sanitarium and, through Dr. Ish's persuasion, McRae was the first institution in Arkansas, and among the first in the nation, to use isoniazid and streptomycin in the treatment of tuberculosis. And it says that the use of these drugs created a new method of treatment so effective that the disease has been largely eradicated, after the discovery. So, he is really given credit for getting them to use it. DL: Well now, you mentioned United Friends Hospital. Where was it and what kind of a—? EI: It was at Tenth and Izard. It was called the United Friends Hospital. They had a health plan so they could pay monthly, sort of like Blue Cross and Blue Shield. Not nearly, not nearly as big as them. But he was chief of staff there. DL: Well now, did all kinds of people go there? EI: Yes, yes, yes. And at that time, Dr. Ish was the only black surgeon in the state for a long time. People came from all over the state to have surgery because, see, white hospitals were not open to black physicians and they were not on staffs. See, black physicians have just been on staffs at white hospitals in recent years. DL: So, United Friends was a hospital for blacks? EI: Yes. DL: Well, was the staff very large? Do you remember? EI: Well, all the doctors, black doctors, in the city. They didn't have too many. DL: What was his attitude as far as the racial thing? Did he prefer to just treat black patients or—? EI: Oh, no, no. Doctor Ish never had any qualms about the racial situation because his, some of his very best friends were in another group. DL: Did he feel badly to be excluded from their group? EI: Yes, to a point, but then to a point it really didn't make any difference because he was a person who was so s e cure in his position, and he knew that. And so really, I don't think it bothered him too much. And when they did open the hospitals and the medical associations to black physicians he was grateful. But I don't think it would have mattered much because he, his position was unusual in that white physicians had very high respect for him. And they always came to him for certain advice. I was talking to — I don't recall, someone just recently, oh, Rabbi Sanders—who mentioned Dr. Ish and how much he thought of him and his background, and he mentioned a white physician and said that whenever he felt that he needed advice, he would come to Dr. Ish. DL: Do you know if Doctor Ish, being that he was educated at Yale and Harvard, did he always intend to come back to Arkansas? Or did he, you know, ever, because I'm sure up there he would— EI: No, I don't think he did. I don't really believe he did. I think he, he did his internship at Flint Goodrich* in Washington, D.C. and I think he really had plans to stay up that way. But he came home and he got married here and I think that's why he decided to stay here DL: Well then, when you married Dr. Ish, did you continue teaching? EI: Yes. Yes, I contiued teaching. Because he said, "Now you do what you want to do. If you want to teach you can or if you want to, stop," but, I continued teaching. And I enjoyed it because I felt that I was a young woman and I just wasn't ready to come home and roll my hair. And I enjoyed teaching. DL: Did you expect to have your own children? EI: I had hoped to have my own children because he was young enough and I was young enough. But as you can see, from three girls and only one grandchild, .it's just not, it wasn't in the books for me. DL: To go back just a little bit, your years in school. Were there any teachers or any individuals who particularly influenced you other than your parents? People that you particularly respected or admired? EI: Yes. DL: Who would, who were some of those people? EI: Well, I had some teachers in high school who influenced me. Mrs. Roberta Sims,* who taught me English had quite a bit of influence on me. I had a science teacher, Mr. Raleigh Brown,* who exerted quite a bit of influence on my plans to teach school. In college I had Mrs. Norma Harold,* who was the Dean of Women in my dormitory, who encouraged me quite a bit. Because I went to school right in the middle of the depression at that time, and I went to school on sheer nerve to Wiley after I left here. Because my father, everbody, was out of work for a time off and on and, of course, it was sad Susie had just lost her husband. She was really taking, she had gotten her work back in the school but she was taking the burden of carrying the home and everything alone. So I went on a work program called NYA that they had for college students. DL: What did that involve? EI: That involved I worked in the chemistry lab as an assisant and that supplemented my tuition. And I would get very disgusted at times because I really didn't have clothes like the other girls, a lot of the girls. But of course a lot of us didn't, we were a lot of us in the same boat at that time, but we exchanged clothes. And sometimes I'd get hot and tell Mrs. Harold, I said, "I think I'm going to have to give it up and I'm going home," and she would say, "Oh, don't do that, you'll do all right." But in spite of my not having clothes or not having a lot of things that the other girls had, I was selected as the most popular woman on the campus for two straight years. I was convinced that clothes didn't mean everything. I mean those were things that helped you to know that there were some other values that were important. DL: In the summertime did you stay in school or did you go home? EI: No, I always went home in the summer. And I worked, I worked during the summer. DL: What kind of things did you do? EI: I would go out with my mother who was still sewing at that time. DL: And you would help her? EI: Help her, help the people, wash the dishes or anything. DL: When you married Dr. Ish did you, what kind of a wedding did you have? EI: Oh, I had a beautiful wedding. I had a yard wedding, a garden wedding. DL: Did you marry here in Little Rock? EI: Yes, right here in Little Rock, there at 1715 Pulaski. DL: Was it a large wedding? EL
Yes, it was a large wedding. DL: Who married you? EI: Reverend Chilton Christian,* the pastor of First Congregational Church. My husband was Congregationalist and he married us. DL: Who was in the wedding? EI: Marian Taylor,* whose father was president of Philander Smith College at the time. She was a very good friend of mine, was my only attendant and of course, my nephew Sidney, he was my ringbearer. DL: Let's see, his last name, what was—Walton is his last name ? EI: Yes. DL
Did your family come up from Shreveport? EI: Yes, they came up from Shreveport. My family came up, everybody came up. Everybody but Josephine and of course she was in California at the time. She had left. Frances sang at my wedding. DL: Well now, didn't you have a reception? EI: Yes, I had a reception in the yard. DL: Is that, what is 1715 Pulaski, is that a home? EI: That was my home. It is the Bass' home. Reverend Bass, who is pastor of my church now, Wesley Chapel United Methodist Church, is the son of the couple that I lived with. And of course he's very close to me, just like a brother. But it was their home at the time. DL: So it was the Bass home? They were the friends of your sister that you were telling me about. EI: Right, right. Mrs. Bass was formerly of Shreveport. DL: Well then, did you and Dr. Ish take a trip? EI: Yes, we went to Los Angeles on our honeymoon. DL: On the train? EI: On the train. It was the first time I'd ever been in a diner. DL: Was that a wonderful trip? EI: That was a wonderful trip and a wonderful experience. I met many people who are still friends of mine, a lot of them have passed on, but who were friends of Dr. Ish's. Because we went to a meeting, Sigma Pi Phi Boule* is the name of it, and they met every two years and of course, it was meeting that summer in Los Angeles. And it's an organization that's made up of men of similar interests—college presidents, physicians, (Side Two of the cassette tape.) lawyers, men who were members of various fraternities but different areas of work. This chapter has recently been reactivated in Little Rock because at the time it was only two people living in that chapter and that was Dr. Powell and Dr. Ish, until the last two years. Oh no, one other, Scott, J. D. Scott,* who is Business Manager at Philander now, who is the only original living member in that chapter. DL: Now, how long did your trip last? EI:We stayed in Los Angeles two weeks DL: How long was the trip to get back and forth? EI: Four days. DL: Four days each way ? EI: Four days each way. It was quite a trip. DL: Well now, when you got back and set up housekeeping, did you move to this house? EI: I moved directly to this house. Now Lucille, the youngest girl, my husband's youngest daughter, who is supervisor for the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare in Chicago, was finishing high school the year we got married and she's the youngest girl. DL: So she was the only child at home? EI: She was the only child at home and she was only here a year. Then Jeff, who was the middle son (Mrs. Ish apparently shows a photograph.)—that's Jeff and of course this is Lucille. PAUSE... and then of course, Jeff had already graduated from school and he was just in and out. This is Lucille, she's the youngest girl. And of course, this is Jeff who is a podiatrist in Rockford, Illinois. DL: And he was already in school then? EI: Yes, he was in school. Of course, this is Harriet, the oldest girl and this is Maceo, her husband. Now this is Jeff's wife at the time—they are separated and he has married again since then. Stanley was living at the time but he couldn't come over because he had a very sick patient. This was kind of a family reunion we had, so that's why he's not on here. He was living at that time. Now Jeff, of course as I said, is a podiatrist in Rockford and he had just completed a new clinic that he was about to open. DL: What expectations did you have as a new bride? EI: I was a little apprenhensive. I didn't exactly know what was going to happen when you marry a man with four children and children who are around in your same group practically. But those things were not warranted because, as I said before, we had a beautiful relationship and we never had any problems at all, even at Dr. Ish's death when sometimes problems can arise. And I certainly am not stretching this, we have had no problems at all. The children have been just lovely to me. They never forget a birthday, they never, I heard from everybody on Mother's Day and it's just been a beautiful relationship. DL: Well now, had their, had his first wife, had she died? EI: Yes, Mrs. Ish died in '39 and we married in '41. DL: Well, you came on back and did you just immediately pick right up teaching again? EI: Right, right. I came back and went right back into the classroom. And as I said, Lucille had just graduated from high school, and she went to Talladega that first year and then she, after graduating from Talladega, she went to the University of Chicago and got her master's degree in medical social work. DL:These children were obviously highly motivated children. EI: They were, they were. DL: What do you think was the cause of that? Do you think Dr. Ish consciously instilled that in them? EI: Yes, that's right. They grew up in a highly motivated environment where they had access to books and they had experiences. Lucille, for instance, went to Camp Atwater up in Massachusetts every summer. And most children in that age group or in this environment didn't have that opportunity. DL: Was that a recreational camp? EI: That was a recreational camp and she went every summer. Harriet went to camp up in Colorado every summer. Of course, the boys worked but the girls were exposed to those things. And then of course, after Harriet got married. Lucille has been married, but she and her husband separated. She's strictly a career woman. DL: Well, describe Dr. Ish for me. What did he look like and what values were important to him? EI: Intellectual values, I think, were his most important values. I think that he believed in perfection. I teach at Philander and we have many students in Philander who have problems in speaking good English. It's because they came from environments—you see, Philander is a church school, a Methodist Church School, and of course you can't say, "I'm going to give you an examination and if you don't pass it we can't accept you," because Philander depends on students. So you have to accept students in all areas. But I'm saying that to say this: in talking with students I sometimes, when I correct them, when their grammar is poor I tell them, "Now don't get angry with me because I have not been perfect, I am not perfect at all. I have made errors and a lot of people can make errors," I said. "But," I said, "my husband, who used to quote Elbert Hubbard to me quite often, and Elbert Hubbard's theory was, the only was you can recognize an educated person is by his ability to speak his mother tongue correctly. I believe that now," I said, "because I can be sitting listening to someone speak or lecture and I can be very highly motivated, and I'm interested, but if he says something wrong it kind of drops me a little, gives me a little drop."And that's why I tell them that I'm trying to motivate you, to be more careful. And right now I'm trying to get them to put into the curriculum at Philander a course in basic grammar, and I don't want it to be an elective. I want it to be a requirement in basic grammar for freshman students as they come in. Because we talk about it all the time but you see when they get to Philander, after they finish high school, those patterns are set. And I've taught some very good students, very good students, whose English is horrible, and I try to tell them it's going to be a drawback to them if they're not careful.I try to instill that in them because if you're not careful, it's going to set you back. DL: What about the viewpoint that some people feel, you know, about the ethnic language differences and that that should be preserved? EI: Well, I tell them that there's no such thing. There's only one thing, there's either good English or bad English. Now that's my opinion. DL: That everyone really should strive for the same model? EI: Right, exactly. DL: So you would say that that characterizes Dr. Ish? EI: Dr. Ish's first priority was, of course, he believed in moral values first, intellectual values. DL:Did he make house calls? EI: House calls? DL: Yes. EI: Yes, he did. He was known, people—everybody who knew Dr. Ish, he was a person that you had to know well to like— DL: Why? EI: But people who knew him liked him. There were a lot of people who did not like him. Because there was no hypocrisy about him at all. He enjoyed sitting down talking to his patients and he would get off on conversations about current events and things of that sort. And he loved to do that and he had a reputation, he had a reputation for taking his time. He didn't rush on anything. I said sometimes he'd get a call—at that time doctors were making house calls—and he would get a call and they'd say, "Tell Dr. Ish to come right away," and he would take his time. He'd put on one sock, maybe he was in bed, I was a nervous wreck, and he'd say—I was a wreck—and he'd say, "Well, Ercell, if they are that sick they were sick all the time, but my rushing to get there is not going to help whatever it is." And that was the way he looked at it and I think that was why he lived as long as he did. He lived until he was 86 and practiced until the day—he was making his rounds at the hospital the day he went in the hospital—'course he was in the hospital a week and a half. He had a kidney failure. But he believed in, he was, I suppose, being a surgeon he wanted everything right in place. Everything. And of course, he helped me in a lot of ways because I had a tendency to be a little hairy-scary in mind. For instance, he could go to his drawers up there in the dark and put his hand on something that he had put there, you see, but I couldn't. And if he'd see me going to his drawer, he'd say, "Watch it, Ercel1--don't go over there," because he knew I was going to mess it up. But that was his way of doing things _____. DL:I wanted to ask you about this house. We're at 16th and Scott. What is the number here? EI: Sixteen hundred Scott. DL: Sixteen hundred Scott, and I know that, didn't Dr. Ish's parents build this house? EI: Okay. (Mrs.Ish reads from an unidentified document.) "It is a two-story white frame house at the corner of 16th and Scott and looks no different from many of the others on that historic street. But while the others have been homes of people secure in their own racial environment, 1600 Scott has, since it's construction in 1880, been an uncelebrated bridge between the Negro and white communities." You see, from 15th up is where your wealthier white people lived. "One late afternoon in 1873, a tall Negro man and his wife stepped off the train at Little Rock. They traveled on by stagecoach to Wrightsville, where they had been engaged to teach." Now that was Dr. Ish's mother and father, who came here. "Jefferson Gatherford Ish and his wife, Marietta Georgia Kidd Ish, both held college degrees and they established such a fine record, both as teachers and community workers, that the Little Rock School Board sought Ish out. He started his career teaching as principal—he started his teaching career as principal—at the Arsenal School near City Park and moved on to Bush, Union, Capitol Hill and Gibbs. He was the first educator in Little Rock to introduce departmentalism in public schools, and Ish School was named in his honor. In 1880 Ish built his home at 1600 Scott and three years later a son, Stanley, the present Dr. G.W.S. Ish, was born there. Scott Street was favored as a home site by the prominent families of that period. The David Terrys , Angelo Marre, Logan H. Roots, and Judge Kimball built homes up and down it. However, the white area ended at 15th and Scott. The city was less populous then and Ish owned quite a bit of the surrounding property." For example, Dr. Ish and his brother built that apartment house across the street and, of course, he owned the house next door which he gave to Lucille and she owns it now, and the house behind. "Dr. Ish recalls playing under a huge grape arbor in the back and remembers taking the cows to pasture beyond that. Cows figured quite often in Dr. Ish's memories as they do for most people who were young at the turn-of-the- century. The white families drove their cows past his house to more distant pastures. The stuff of which good fathers are made seems to have run in the Ish family. Jefferson Ish saw his two sons through Yale University and Dr. Ish in turn raised and educated two sons and two daughters, who are themselves very successful individuals." See, Dr. Ish had one brother, Jeff, who was also a graduate of Yale. Both of the sons went to Yale. DL: Is he a physician, too? EI: No, he was vice-president of an insurance company in Chicago, but he has passed, too. DL: So they continued to live in this lovely house and then when, I guess now Dr. Ish was already living here when you married him? He had inherited the house, is that right? EI: His brother had sold his interest to him and, of course, Dr. Ish later sold his and had moved to Chicago. So there was no one here but Dr. Ish and his family. DL: Are many of these furnishings original with the house ? EI: Yes, yes many of them. I want to take you upstairs to see his mother and father's bedroom suite. But a lot of the furnishings, pieces like this and this, and some pieces in there, I have had since our marriage. (Inaudible discussion of some furniture.) DL: Well Mrs. Ish, after your marriage and you've gone on to continue to teach school, where were you teaching at this time now? EI: When I married I was teaching at Capitol Hill Elementary School. Then, I was really teaching out of my field over there, because my degree was in secondary education and then I was sent over to Dunbar to teach biology. DL: Now, you taught for how many years? EI: I have taught for, oh, I guess, 35 years. DL: What would you say about the change in the education in the schools since you began teaching to now, did you see a need to upgrade the education? Was it adequate in the elementary school when you were teaching there? EI: To a point, yes. I think it was adequate to a point. And then, I think the whole thing would veer around the change in your whole social pattern of your students. I think that's where your biggest problems are now. I tell my students that I'm teaching now in elementary science, Methods of Teaching Elementary Science, I'm teaching college students. Now I'm not only teaching students from these small areas, but I'm teaching students from Little Rock. Now, before I can teach them any methods of teaching, and certainly I'm not criticizing the teaching profession, and I'm not teaching anybody's methods of teaching in Little Rock, but for some reason I don't think the students are really getting the basics that they got back years ago. For instance when I taught science at Dunbar, we didn't have water in the classroom, or gas, or work tables and all the materials to teach science. We had to improvise. I taught osmosis. The kids brought their own eggs from home and we had to send down to the restroom to get water to do experiments with and demonstrations, you see. But those students got the basics. But now, when I'm teaching this Methods of Teaching Elementary Science, I have to teach them some basic science before I can teach them how to teach it. You can't teach something if you don't know it yourself. So I spend most of my time teaching them basic science before I can get to the methods part. How would you go about teaching a class on elements? Well, if they don't know elements or don't know anything about them, how are they going to teach them? So, I have to stop and teach it. DL: So you think they are missing out like in grade school and high school? EI: Right, right. I think they are missing something and I think it is because of the general attitudes. I think it's because of your relaxed rules. I think it's because of parents being more relaxed with students now and not demanding. You see, there was a time when students had to study, you had to come in and you had to study. I don't know if television plays a part in it or not, but I'm not so sure it doesn't. I'm not so sure it's not playing a part. DL: Kind of a lazier time? EI: Right, right. DL: So you're saying that even back in the '40's, in elementary shool at the time, which was an all-black school, that you think the kids were getting a more quality education. EI: I really do. I feel that way. DL: When along in here did the trend toward integrated schools become important to you as an educator, or was that important to you, or was that something that was forced upon you? EI: It was important to me. It wasn't necessarily forced upon me but it was important to me, because I felt it would expose our children to areas in which they had never been exposed. DL: Primarily through white students rather than teachers ? EI: Yes, I felt that they would be coming in contact with students who had been exposed to things. I felt that some of them just would, even sitting in the classroom—don't you have students, I told students out at Henderson, whose parents took them to Florida in the summer, or they'd take time out, or they went to Europe. Our students would never have been exposed to things of that sort. And for them to come back and talk about those things and tell you about them, I felt it would serve as a sort of, something to give them more ambition. So many of our students were from broken homes and they were just there because it was free. DL: Do you think this gives them more ambition or do you think it leads to dissatisfaction? EI: I think in some instances it gives them more ambition and then I think the students who would normally have that urge [jealousy] would have it anyway, than those who wouldn't. That's the way I feel DL: Well, do you feel that the place where we are now, into our integrated schools and our somewhat integrated society, can you see beneficial results yourself? EI: Yes, I can. I see beneficial results in that, there are, I see the aftermath of so many things. For instance when I go down to Union Bank and I see young blacks sitting at desks who had gone through school, who are acquitting themselves well. I go to an office like Blue Cross and Blue Shield and I see them scattered all over. Now, I'm not exactly—I hear, I read, I just read last week where somebody said that they felt blacks had gone back since the integration crisis, that they had not been able to come up, they felt they had gone back to a point. But I don't exactly agree with that, I just don't agree with it. I tell my students all the time that it's the survival of the fittest and I try to instill in them to, whatever their--competency is important. And I don't want them to feel that because I am black I didn't get the job. I think you get the job if you are competent, and of course you cannot be competent if you don't try and get those things as you come along the way. It is going to be important. Now so many blacks have trouble passing tests. Well, they have trouble passing tests. Anybody is going to have trouble passing tests if you don't know what is on the test. If you don't know the answer, you can't pass it. That is the only way to look at it. Well, why don't you know the answer if it's something that you are supposed to know? Somebody failed along the way, but there's a reason for it. So that was the point that I was trying to make with parents. I think parents, instead of instilling things that happened years ago, along the racial line, about how I was treated—forget that! And try and get what is coming on now because things are opening up, things have opened up, and the opportunities are there, and it's up to you. And of course, if you're going to have a child, which I have experienced, sitting up in a classroom mad all the time and angry because, "Miss so and so is white, and I remember how they treated my grandparents, and blah, blah, blah." Well, that isn't helping a child, that isn't helping. I think the parents are doing as much to hold them back, who do that, who instill those things in children, as anything else. Now that's the way I feel about it. Now I could be altogether wrong about that, but that's the way I feel about it. And I feel that this transition that has been made, I'm very proud of it. DL: Do you think that we have come far enough? Are you satisfied with how quickly things have come, do you think we should be moving faster? EI:I'm not necessarily happy with the speed at which things have come. I think they could move a little faster, I really do. But, I also feel that in order to move faster we are going to have to take some of the responsibilities ourselves and not blame the other group for it. I think we are going to have to learn to accept some of our own responsibilities. All right, we're talking about the medical schools not accepting but so many blacks. There was an article in the paper last week about the medical schools and so many blacks. Okay, well, why aren't they accepting them? Okay, what we've got to do is get to these school boards and get these people to steer these students in the areas that they need to go into, math and science, you see, and get them to get the basics in those areas. And then when they apply to these medical schools they can pass these entrance examinations. But work — somebody's got to get busy and work with these young men who are inclined to want to go to medical school. If you spot them and you see them, give those people your special time and work with them so by the time they are ready to enroll in these medical schools, they can. Because, they have not been exposed to a lot of things and they just absolutely can't compete. DL: Well, do you feel that this quota system for minorities is appropriate, or do you think that minorities should compete on the same basis with everyone else? EI: I think they should compete on the same basis with everybody else. DL: Even though it may take some years for the children— EI: That's right. I think somebody has got to get busy and speed it up to help them compete on the same basis, and that's the way I feel about it. DL: What was your situation during the '57 crisis? Where were you teaching? Did that have a big effect on your life or was that a turbulent time for you and Dr. Ish? EI: Oh, not necessarily. I was teaching. I had a nephew, Sidney, who came here to live with me and went to school. He finished at Horace Mann and of course he finished in the class of '57 at Horace Mann. DL: At Horace Mann? EI: Yes. Of course, that was right at the beginning of this _____. But we didn't--of course, we were interested and I knew, I had taught all of those students who were the Little Rock Nine, you call them, all but three. I taught six of them
three of them 1 did not teach. But they were all very good students, all of them, and I knew that they were—could acquit themselves if they were accepted. I never agreed with the way they started the integration cirsis, I always thought they should have started within the elementary schools. I always felt they went backwards with it. I felt that that was a terrible mistake, to start integration in your high schools. DL: It was hard on the kids. EI: Yes, it was very hard on them and I could never quite understand it. I could never quite understand why they did it that way, but it would have been much better to have started it with the smaller children. But I think it was a matter of over-anxiousness, they wanted it so badly. DL: Were you involved at all in, what was the committee of women called, the Women's—? EI: Emergency Committee. DL: Right, were you involved in that group at all? EI: No, no, no. Those were mostly, well, I think that whole group was white. DL: Oh, were they? 1 though they were some, I thought it was a mixed group. EI: Maybe a Brewer was, who was — there was an article-in the Gazette about her______ was a very good friendof mine, and of course, Mrs. Terry. They were all involved in that DL: I see, I misunderstood. I was thinking that was a bi-racial group. EI: No, that was to get the schools opened. You know they closed the schools that year and that Women's Emergency Committee was a committee that was formed to get the schools opened. DL: Well, what about the Panel of American Women? Have you ever been involved in that at all? EI: No, other than attending their—and knowing—you know, I've always cooperated with anything they've ever had. DL: So then you are, I would characterize you perhaps as a mover behind the scenes, sort of. Is that right? EI: Yes. Now I have worked with various, I wrote some of these things down here, various areas, of course. The Urban League, I have been on that board for 25 years. I did work for a long time with the League of Women Voters and served in various areas on that board. I worked at the Central "Y" on that board. I served two three-year terms on the Arkansas Arts Center Board. I served six years as president of the Arkansas Medical Dental Pharmaceutical Association, Women's Division, and I served on the board of Gaines House for four or five years. I am now serving my second three-year term on the ______ Commission on Safety. Pause... Crossover Institutes — DL: What were they? EI: Those were institutes that were funded by the federal government and, of course, teachers were selected to attend those institutes to discuss problems that perhaps would arrive during their teaching. Teachers who had never taught integrated groups. Our first institute was held at the Little Rock School Board, and I served as a chairman of the group down there. Then I went down to Monticello, the University of Arkansas, it was not, what was that school's name— DL: AM &N? EI: Yes, I went down there for six weeks and served as chairman of an institute down there, a Crossover Institute, that teachers from all over the state came to attend, where we sat and discussed problems and talked about them, our views on racial problems and ______ It was one of those things, those institutes were interesting because it was understood at the beginning that nobody was supposed to get angry about anything that anybody said. Everybody was supposed to express themselves, exactly how you felt, and then we would sit down and talk about it. And then at the end of the institute we wrote it up. I tried to find my report but couldn't. Of course, we had those institutes. I worked with three of those institutes. EI: Do you know Neyland Hester? DL: No. EI: You don't know Neyland? Are you at Little Rock University? DL: No, I'm not. This program is, but I'm doing this as a volunteer. EI: Oh, I see, it's volunteer. Well, Neyland Hester is at Little Rock University, University of Arkansas, and he's a very good friend of mine. We worked very closely on these institutes. DL: What do you, did you mention what you wanted to— on your involvement, have you mentioned all that you have there? EI: I guess so. DL: I wanted to ask you what you look forward to. Is there something in particular you would like to accomplish ahead of you that you have in mind? EI: Well, at this point I am still, of course, in the teaching profession and I enjoy working with young people. I work with the church quite a bit. I just want to continue to be able to help where I'm needed, in the areas where I'm needed. DL: What would you say thus far has been your proudest accomplishment in your life? EI: I feel that...working with the integration crisis. DL:You mean continuing to teach? EI: Continuing to teach. DL: Was there pressure brought on you at that time not to teach, or was it just that everyone's nerves were so frazzled? EI: No, no, there was no pressure brought on me not to teach. But it was, it gave me a sense of satisfaction to feel that I made friends, lifelong friends, with members of another group that had never had any experience at all with a black. DL: Are you talking about now when you integrated the faculty. EI: Yes, yes and students, too. 'Cause it's very seldom I go to the Mall or any place where some student won't walk up and say, "Oh, Mrs. Ish, do you remember me? I'm so and so. You taught me at Metropolitan," or, "You taught me at Henderson." I had a young woman to call me just last week and she's head of a department down at City Hall, some department that relates to health. And she said, "Mrs. Ish, do you remember me? I'm Mary Carroll* now." She said, "I was Mary Larraby.* You taught me at Henderson." But it's rewarding. She said, "I think about you and I, your name came up about something," and she said, "I said I was going to give you a ring." But those are rewarding things, you know, having worked with young people and having had some part in straightening their thinking about certain things, you know. Clearing, I wouldn't say straightening, clearing their thinking in some areas. Because, as you say, we don't want to continue to harp on the race thing, but unfortunately a lot of the white students had been brainwashed with the fact that black teachers were inferior. And they believed that, and they told me that, you see. But then they changed their attitudes, you see. And it's rewarding for me to know that I was able to go in, even though it was very hard at first, and as I said it was nerve-racking. For awhile I didn't see how I was going to be able to stand the pressure but 1 made it through and I gained the respect of so many people. And I really feel that that is the most rewarding thing. Then, having been able to, having a good married life to a man that I highly respected, and that everybody who knew him respected him highly. Having been married to him was rewarding. DL: What advice would you give to young people today, particulary young women. EI:Demand respect at all times. And in order to demand respect, acquit yourselves in the manner in which you can demand it. Never drop to the point of trying to satisfy somebody else because of an ambition, or false ambition, I should say. Always remember that you are expected, you are—wait now, turn it off just a minute because I want to get this straight. DL: We can take all the time you want. EI: Okay, all right, because I want to get this straight. Whatever area you're going into, if you're going to be a career woman, if you're going to be a housewife, or whatever you're going to be, do that well. Never go to the extreme in anything, in dress, in entertainment or in _____. I guess what I mean by never going to the extreme is, I see so many women trying so hard to be popular, till they go to the extreme. I feel that people will respect you more if you are, if you demand respect, that's what I should say, if you demand respect. DL: Well, unless there is something that you can think of that you would like to add, or some topic you would like to talk about that I didn't ask you about— EL
I don't know. I was, I think I gave you about all the background that 1 have on myself. DL: I see here the Ish house has been entered on the National Register of Historic Places. EI: Yes, I have, when you go out I will show you the plaque on the outside of the house. That was, this was just given to me last week. They had this reception up at the Territorial Restoration DL: Has it been difficult for you to live here alone? EI: No, it hasn't. DL: You're not afraid? EI: Believe it or not, I'm not afraid I tell you what, I had a decision to make when my husband passed. I had to decide either to give this house up and live in a smaller house, get somebody to come in here and live with me, or get a burglar alarm system. DL: And you got the burglar alarm? EI: So I got the burglar alarm system and I'm very comfortable here. I have not been bothered at all since I've been here and I— DL: Dr.Ish died when ? What year? EI:'70. DL:'70.N ine years. EI: Nine years. And I have on one or two occasions decided I was going to get married again and then I changed my mind. So I change my mind and I think perhaps at this point I will remain single. 'Cause I am comfortable here and I don't see any point in—it's very hard to find, a woman my age, to find a compatible person. You've either got to go from one extreme or to the other, which I could very easily do, go from one extreme to the other, but I don't plan to do that. DL: Well thank you so much for your time. You are a most remarkable woman and I have certainly enjoyed this time. EI: Well, I just hope I, I'm just sorry that I was feeling, I was feeling kind of bum this morning 'cause I might have been able to do a little better. DL: Oh, I think you've done marvelously. Thank you. EI: And I hope what I've given you is material you can use. EDITORIAL NOTES AND SYMBOLS Pause... indicates the recording stopped. ... indicates a brief pause by the speaker. * indicates an unverified name or word. indicates one or a few inaudible words.