Oral deposition of Mildred C. Tatum

Deposition taken at Wright, Lindsey and Jennings, Little Rock, Arkansas
Little Rock School District, plaintiff vs. Pulaski County Special School District, defendant
This transcript was created using Optical Character Recognition and may contain some errors.
Case No.: LR-C-82-866 * LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, * et al. * Plaintiffs * ~- * * UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT PULASKI COUNTY SPECIAL SCHOOL DISTRICT NO. 1, et al. * * EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS Defendants * * WESTERN DIVISION MRS. LORENE JOSHUA, et al. * Intervenors * * KATHERINE KNIGHT, et al. * Intervenors * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * THE ORAL DEPOSITION OF MILDRED C. TATUM * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * APPEARANCES: MR. SAMUEL JONES, III, Esq., Wright, Lindsey & Jennings, 2000 Worthen Bank Building, 200 West Capitol Avenue, Little Rock, Arkansas 72201 *** For the Plaintiffs*** MESSRS. JOHN w. WALKER & MARK BURNETTE, Esqs., 1723 Broadway, Little Rock, Arkansas 72206 *** For the Joshua Intervenors *** ALSO PRESENT: MR. BOBBY LESTER, Superintendent * * * * * * * BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. 201 East Sixth Street Little Rock, Arkansas 72202 (501) 372-5115 2 THE ORAL DEPOSITION OF MILDRED C. TATUM, a witness produced at the request of the Intervenors, taken in the above-styled and numbered cause on the 25th day of June, 1992, before Jeff Bennett, CCR, LS #19, a Notary Public in and for White County, Arkansas, at Wright, Lindsey & Jennings, 2000 Worthen Bank Building, Little Rock, Arkansas, at 3:45 p.m. pursuant to the agreement hereinafter set forth. * * * * * * * * * * STIPULATIONS IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by and between the parties through their respective counsel that the deposition of MILDRED C. TATUM may be taken at the ti~e and place for the purposes of discovery, pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, and that all formalities with regard to the taking of said deposition are hereby waived including presentation, reading, subscription by the witness, notice of filing, filing, etc.~ and that all objections as to rele~ancy, materiality, and competency are expressly reserved, except as to form of questions, and may be raised if and when said deposition, or any part thereof, is so offered at the trial of this case. * * * * * * * * * * MILDRED C, TATUM the witness hereinbefore named, being first duly cautioned and sworn, or affirmed, to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, testified as follows: BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. 201 East Sixth Street Little Rock, Arkansas 72202 (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 - 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 - 3 MR. JONES: I'll make the same notations in this deposition that I did in Mr. Matthews'. MR. WALKER: All right. EXAMINATION BY MR. WALKER: Q. Ms. Tatum, would you state your name, please? A. Mrs. Mildred c. Tatum. Q. Ms. Tatum, are you aware of the proposed budget cuts that the Board enacted on March 17, 1992? A. Yes, I am. Q. Did you vote for those budget cuts? A. Yes, I did. Q. Before you voted for the budget cuts, did you all request Mr. Lester or anybody who represents the school district in an administrative capacity to set forth the desegregative impact of the budget cuts? A. I did not. Q. Did you at any time before enacting the budget cuts entertain a motion to obtain court approval for them? A. I did not. Q. Since the budget cuts have you made a motion to ask the court to approve the budget cuts? A. I have not. Q. You've not voted on such a motion? A. I have not. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. JONES: we have of course furnished the information to the court. 4 Q. I understand counsel has furnished it. But you all still haven't asked the court to approve it, have you? A, No. Q. All right. Do you recall discussing the budget cuts in executive session? A. Yes, we did. Q. Why were you all discussing these budget cuts in executive session, Ms. Tatum? A. There were some people involved, and that was part of personnel, one of them that we considered. Q. But you discussed the whole budget cut idea in executive committee meeting, didn't you? A. That's true, because the persons are involved that are one of the ones that were being cut. It was part of personnel. Q. The four day week, that doesn't involve specific personnel, does it? A. Q. you? A, Q. That's true. And you discussed that in the executive session, didn't Yes, we did. And the extra curricular activities did not have to do with specific personnel, did it, item number 13? A. Yes, it did. Because it had people that was a part of our BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 personnel. Q. Well, transportation costs aside from the salaries for the bus drivers, that did not involve personnel, did it? A. The 2 mile limit? Q. Yes, ma'am, number 7. A. No, not necessarily. Q. The truth of the matter is that you all had as a general subject the budget cuts in executive session
isn't that true, Ms. Tatum? A. That's true. Q. So instead of having the discussion which led up to the meeting on March 17, 1992 in public, you all went into executive session to do it? MR. JONES: She never said they didn't have a public meeting about it. Q. Well, you did have public meetings where you entertained comments from people in the public about the budget cuts anticipated and things like that. But when you all sat down and argued back and forth about budget cuts, and talked about it, and told Mr. Lester what you wanted him to do, that was in executive session
isn't that correct? A. You asked me two questions there together. When we made our discussion about the budget cuts, then we went into executive session. Break it down and do it one at a time? Q. You never came out of executive session and made a formal BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 motion directing Mr. Lester with respect to what he was to propose about budget cuts, did you? A. No. 6 Q. So all of this discussion about the budget cuts and what Mr. Lester was to propose took place in the executive committee, didn't it? A. Yes. Q. And you told him to look at in terms of budget reduction considerations not only staff, but programs, purchases and construction and everything else, didn't you? A. I can only speak for myself. I have not told him to look at any specific items that we did not cut. But the administration in itself brought this budget reduction to the Board, and the Board selected from that. And we went to session in -- we had a meeting in March. And we selected the ones we thought we could cut and the ones we could not cut. The administration brought this list to us. Q. Did you all have the benefit of the recommendations before March 17? A. Yes. If any Board member wanted to add anything they could add it to this list. Q. Did you all have this list and the backup data regarding this list before the meeting on March 17, 1992? A. Was that in Hot Springs? Q. I don't know where it was. Wherever this was, did you get BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 - 7 the recommendations at the same time you all took action on the recommendations? A. No, we had time to study it. Q. How much time did you have? A. I'm thinking in terms of the first time we did the budget cut was at our retreat. Q. I'm talking about these that are in Exhibit l? A. No. The ones that you're talking about at this time the final budget cuts that we've taken recently. We always get our agenda package on a Friday. Q. And the meeting is on a Tuesday? A, Right. Q. So you all had the agenda package for three or four days before the meeting? A. Right. And they always say to us if there's any questions to call them. Q. I notice that a number of positions are cut out, like coordinators, educational examiners, laborers, alpha positions
is that correct? A. Yes. Q. Before these positions were cut out, did Mr. Lester or any other administrator give you a writing setting forth the effect that this would have on the district's ability to implement the desegregation plan which was just recently approved by the court? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 .r.:
, 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8 A. No. Q. To this date can you tell me what desegregative effect these budget reductions will have upon the desegregation plan? A. I really think that it's going to have a great impact upon the plan, because when we submitted to the court the coordinators, and in terms of Mr. Bowles' position, because he was our desegregation coordinator. That's the one I've been arguing about the most, because I don't feel at this time that to train someone else to do the job that Mr. Bowles has done for the last past 6 or 7 years is going to make our district effective as it has been in the past. Because Mr. Bowles has studied hard and he has tried to make sure that our district is on top. It is going to be a great impact on our school district. Q. Let me ask you with respect to Mr. Bowles. Have there been some Board members who have been disgruntled about the manner in which Mr. Bowles has carried out and the vigor with which he's carried out his responsibilities? A. They would not discuss it with me if they did. Q. Did the Board consider, to your knowledge, the objective qualifications of Mr. Bowles in comparison to the objective qualifications of Mr. Collins? A. I never seen anything in writing. Mr. Lester said he was going to look at that and make the decision. But that was not my argument. My point was that Mr. Bowles has worked with them. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 .i.::, 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 - 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9 And if there was not a need to go ahead and do the cuts, let's not do that at this time. Q. Was the reason for the cut, with respect to Mr. Bowles and Mr. Collins and the merger of their positions, the reason a financial savings? A. No, it's not. Q. was that the stated reason by Mr. Lester? A. If I can remember correctly, Mr. Lester said that the public wanted us to do something about the administrators here in the central office. And this is one of the ways that he was showing the public that we're doing something and alleviating some of the administrators. Q. So you cut out half of the black assistant superintendents. Mr. Ed Hogan wasn't an assistant superintendent, was he? A. To my knowledge he was. Q. One out of the four white assistant superintendents. And that's a way of doing it. Did the Board consider the fact that it looked like you were merging at least one black department and another department headed by a black so that you would have a department which would look more black than the rest of the departments in the district? A. I serve on a strange Board. Q. Explain that? A. Because normally whatever the superintendent recommends, and we are policy makers, we more or less go with whatever the BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10 recommendation is. Hopefully he's made the right decision in his recommendation. Q. You said that it's a strange Board. What do you mean by that? A. Because we don't ask questions about what our superintendent does. Q. You didn't ask any questions? A. No, I did. I talked to Mr. Lester about it. I said to him that I did not feel that Mr. Bowles' and Mr. Collins' merger was going to be effective for our district. He and I talked about it more than once. Q. Do you have an opinion as to whether or not it will have adverse desegregative impact? A. Yes, I do. Q. What is that opinion? A. They both are fine men. But Mr. Collins has a lot to learn. And we do not need a learning process at this time. Four or five years ago Mr. Lester, we was going to hope to get unitary status. And it has passed the five years. And to go back and get somebody now that needs to learn, it's not going to be productive for our district, as far as my point is. Q. Is it also going to be more costly through training programs and everything else? A. Yes, it is. Q. And will it be more difficult by the fact that you'll cut BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 - 11 out the necessary out of district travel in this budget that it would take in order to get some of the training that Mr. Bowles has already received? A. I've been at odds with Mr. Lester for the last three days about the Board's out of district travel. We told the public out here when we did our millage that we were going to do math and science. And if we cut out of district travel, we will not be sending anybody to get into desegregative conference or anything else. Q. Is that right? A. Well, if you cut out of district travel that's everybody. I don't have a budget. But I talked to him. He said my budget is deleted. I can't go anyplace. So no one will be going anyplace. No desegregative conference. Q. So the desegregation conferences and the like have been effectively cut out of this budget? A. Everything is going to be cut. It says travel period. Q. That means then that the teachers will not be able to have supervisors who will be able to work with them as effectively because they will not be able to obtain the training necessary? A. That's true. MR. JONES: She just talked about out of district. Q. Out of district, yeah. A. That's true. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 12 Q. Now, within district do you have anybody who purports to be a desegregation expert other than Mr. Bowles? A. No. Q. so if Mr. Bowles is being changed from that position, then you don't have anybody to give the training, do you? A. That's true. Q. So this budget will have a great anti-desegregative effect? A. Yes. Q. I want you to tell me about how it was -- do you know whether or not any central administrative staff members got any raises during the 1991-92 school year? MR. JONES: During the year? Q. (BY MR. WALKER) During this present year. A. It was discussed in personnel that we give retroactive pay. That would be an administrator. Q. Who is that administrator? A. Gene Goss wife. Q. Now, she was in effect given a pay increase this year? A. She was given retroactive salary for some times that she had not got a raise up to this point. Q. Is this the same lady who had already lost a grievance on the same matter? A. She didn't lose it. Q. Didn't it come before the Board? A. It did. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. And did the Board vote to uphold Mr. Lester? No. It did not? No. Did the Board vote to reverse Mr. Lester? They voted to give her her steps. 13 Isn't it true that Mr. Lester the first of the year made a recommendation that her grievance be denied? A. Well, he gave it to the Board. The Board had a right to deny it or accept it. Q. The first time Mr. Lester, upon appeal by Mrs. Goss, denied her grievance
isn't that correct? A. That did not get to the Board. They go to the superintendent first. Apparently he did. I don't get a copy of that. Q. A. Q. Then she appealled or grieved to the Board? Right. And at that point Mr. Lester's recommendation was that her grievance be denied
isn't that correct? A. Apparently so. But I don't get that. Q. Isn't it true that the Board when it voted upon it, voted to uphold Mr. Lester at that particular time early in the year? A. Q. I don't know. I'm saying I don't recall. Isn't it true though that toward the end of the year right after the millage passed, that somehow or another Mrs. Goss got BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 14 a pay increase retroactive? A. Well, there wasn't enough people there to vote to give it to her. If she got it I'm very upset, because it would take a majority vote there for her to get it. And I did not vote for it. so therefore she was not supposed to get it until after the full Board come back, at least one more Board member. It wasn't but four of us there. And three people voted for it. She wasn't supposed to get it. If she got it that's wrong. And I hope she didn't get it. Because I didn't vote for it. It's a matter of waiting until the other Board members get here, but I didn't vote for it. Q. A. Q. A. Was this matter presented for a vote to you? Yes. And the vote was what, three to one? No. The way it was presented, it was presented back in executive session. And then you accept the recommendation of the administrators. we don't go through -- I told you we're a strange Board. We don't go through items. There's not some items that we could accept and some we could reject. They put them all in one. You accept the administration or you reject it. I differed with that, so I just voted no. Q. And there were only four Board members present? A. There were only four Board members present. Q. That meant that the vote then on Mrs. Goss was three to one? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. 15 Right. And you're saying that it takes a majority of the Board in your understanding? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. In my understanding. And a majority of the Board did not pass upon that? No. Well, the majority present did. But it's your position that a majority of the Board itself? Right. Instead of a majority of those present? Because this was not an item on the agenda. It was not on the agenda? No, this was not an item on the agenda. Wonderful. Do you have your agenda that you all considered in executive session available? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. I don't have it with me. Do you have it at tome? Yes, I have it. I'd like to have a copy of that, if that's possible. The school has a copy also. Now, who presented that motion that it be approved, that she be given this retroactive pay? A. Q. A. Q. Mr. Lester. Did any Board member make the motion to approve it? No. Somebody had to make the motion, otherwise -- Mr. Lester BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 can't make the motion, can he? A. I said that we're very strange. We accept the recommendation of the administration. Q. A. Did somebody make a motion to approve the recommendation? There's no line item. Q. Was there a motion by any Board member to approve the recommendation of the superintendent? A. Q. A. Q. Yes, when you go back out in public. So did you all go back out in the public? Yes. And did somebody make a motion to approve the recommendation of the superintendent? A. Q. A. Yes. With respect to Mrs. Goss? No. They just said approve the recommendation of the administration. Her name was not brought up out in public. Q. A. Q. A. so the recommendations were not given to the public? Not her name. There were other names that were there? There were other recommendations. The principal for Sylvan Hills. There was something else we had on administrative position that needed a recommendation. Some teachers. We also have or the addendum minority teachers who had binding contracts with our district, anyone that has resigned or to that effect. Just a list of people. It's a complete package. If you haven't BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. ( 501) 3 72-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 17 seen our agenda, that's what we get. Q. But the other names except for Mrs. Goss' were there, you got those before you got to the meeting? A. Q. Before executive session. And then when you got there he verbally told you that her name is being included on there? A. No, he didn't say that. I'm trying to think exactly. I may not be precise in how he said it. He said that you all voted to give her the steps. He felt it was right to go ahead and give her the retroactive salary. And I wanted to know how much it will cost. And we got somebody in to say Mr. Miller told us about how much it would cost. Q. A. Q. A. How much was that? It wasn't but about $1,500. It wasn't that much, $2,000. Per year? I didn't ask. I didn't want to do it, so I just went to the bathroom. Q. A. Was Mr. Goss in the meeting at the time? Mr. Goss was in the meeting at that time. But I felt that Mr. Goss was not there when we made the decision on her steps. Q. A. But he was there during all the other times? Mr. Lester told him he could stay if he wanted to. He just said he could stay if he wanted to. Q. So since this is executive session he could see how you all voted. Do you all have a policy which says that you must BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 18 exclude yourself relating to matters in which you may have a personal interest? A. He has recused himself in the beginning when we did the steps for her. Q. I'm saying from the dialogue involving this person, he was in there during that dialogue, wasn't he? A. He was in there during talking about this money the other night. He was not in there when we talked about her for the steps. In which I felt that she was entitled to her steps. I voted for her to have her steps. The only reason I did not vote for her money is because I felt that the whole Board needs to hear it. I don't want to ever make a decision without at least one or two more Board members there. Q. A. Especially involving a Board member's wife? Not necessarily a Board member's wife, but just the principal part of it. The other two had been there when we talked about the steps, and I felt like they needed to know about the money part. Q. So this was a recommendation beyond the steps, it included the steps, plus more? A. Q. A. Q. No, I thought you said it was retroactive pay? Yes, it would be. By retroactive pay did you mean that they were giving her pay that someone contended that she should have received the BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 previous years? A. Q. Yes. Did you afford all the teachers in the district an 19 opportunity to be told that if they too thought they were entitled to retroactive pay they could come before the district? A. Q. I don't know if he did or not. Well, you know what happened. Did the Board vote to give all people who felt that they had retroactive pay coming to them, that they could get it this way? A. That was not an item on our agenda. Q. Now that it's been handled that way, do you have any plans to let all teachers know that they can be treated like Mrs. Goss was treated if they have back pay considerations? A. I sure hope that Mr. Lester will let them have it. The Board has to vote to make sure that she gets her money. Q. The Board has already voted to do it according to Ms. Tucker and Mr. Goss? A. My understanding of the rules of the Board is the majority of the Board. But then I heard somebody say the other night the majority of the Board present. The majority of the Board present was three of four of us. And I voted no. So if she got it, well then good. Q. A. Q. There were five Board members present? There were four. That did not include Mr. Goss? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. 20 Yes, it did. Wait a minute. Are you saying that there were only four Board members at the meeting? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. That's true. And three were absent? Yes. And the vote was? Three to one. Well, Mr. Goss didn't vote, did he? Yes, he did. MR. WALKER: I don't have anymore questions. (WHEREUPON, the above-entitled deposition was concluded at 4:15 p.m.) * * * * * * * * * * BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 STATE OF ARKANSAS} }ss. COUNTY OF WHITE } C E R T I F I C A T E RE: THE ORAL DEPOSITION OF MILDRED C, TATUM: I, JEFF BENNETT, CCR, LS #19, a Notary Public in and 21 for White County, Arkansas do hereby certify that the facts stated by me in the caption of the foregoing deposition are true
and that the foregoing deposition was transcribed by me, or under my supervision, on the Cimarron III Computerized Transcription System from my machine shorthand notes taken at the time and place set out on the caption hereto, the witness being first duly cautioned and sworn, or affirmed, to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this deposition was taken
and further, that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties hereto, nor financially interested, or otherwise, in the outcome of this action. GIVEN UNDER MY day of June, 1992. JEFF BENNETT, CCR #19, Notary Publi County, Arkansas My commission expires 11-29-2000 BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. 201 East Sixth Street Little Rock, Arkansas 72202 (501) 372-5115
This project was supported in part by a Digitizing Hidden Special Collections and Archives project grant from The Andrew W. Mellon Foundation and Council on Library and Information Resources.

<dcterms_creator>Bushman Court Reporting</dcterms_creator>