Oral deposition of Doyan Matthews

Deposition taken at Wright, Lindsey and Jennings, Little Rock, Arkansas
Little Rock School District, plaintiff vs. Pulaski County Special School District, defendant
This transcript was created using Optical Character Recognition and may contain some errors.
Case No.: LR-C-82-866 * LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, * et al. * Plaintiffs * vs. * * UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT PULASKI COUNTY SPECIAL SCHOOL DISTRICT NO. 1, et al. * * EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS Defendants * * WESTERN DIVISION MRS. LORENE JOSHUA, et al. * Intervenors * * KATHERINE KNIGHT, et al. * Intervenors * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * THE ORAL DEPOSITION OF DOYAN MATTHEWS * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * APPEARANCES: MR. SAMUEL JONES, III, Esq., Wright, Lindsey & Jennings, 2000 Worthen Bank Building, 200 West Capitol Avenue, Little Rock, Arkansas 72201 *** For the Plaintiffs*** MESSRS. JOHN w. WALKER & MARK BURNETTE, Esqs., 1723 Broadway, Little Rock, Arkansas 72206 *** For the Joshua Intervenors *** ALSO PRESENT: MR. BOBBY LESTER, superintendent * * * * * * * BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. 201 East Sixth Street Little Rock, Arkansas 72202 (501) 372-5115 2 THE ORAL DEPOSITION OF DOYAN MATTHEWS, a witness produced at the request of the Intervenors, taken in the above-styled and numbered cause on the 25th day of June, 1992, before Jeff Bennett, CCR, LS #19, a Notary Public in and for White County, Arkansas, at Wright, Lindsey & Jennings, 2000 Worthen Bank Building, Little Rock, Arkansas, at 11:00 a.m. pursuant to the agreement hereinafter set forth. * * * * * * * * * * STIPULATIONS IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by and between the parties through their respective counsel that the deposition of DOYAN MATTHEWS may be taken at the time and place for the purposes of discovery, pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, and that all formalities with regard to the taking of said deposition are hereby waived including presentation, reading, subscription by the witness, notice of filing, filing, etc.
and that all objections as to relevancy, materiality, and competency are expressly reserved, except as to form of questions, and may be raised if and when said deposition, or any part thereof, is so offered at the trial of this case. * * * * * * * * * * DOYAN MATTHEWS the witness hereinbefore named, being first duly cautioned and sworn, or affirmed, to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, testified as follows: BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. 201 East Sixth Street Little Rock, Arkansas 72202 (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 - MR. JONES: Before we start I promised Mr. Roachell I'd make a statement on his behalf for the record. When John contacted me about these Monday, I think he would agree I immediately moved to accommodate him. And we've got all the ones he requested scheduled for today. Apparently, however, Mr. Richard Roachell, who represents the Knight Intervenors, did not get notified concerning the depositions. We called his office this morning to confirm that he understood that there would be a deposition at 11:00 instead of at 1:00, as I had previously understood the schedule. And he represented to us that it was his first notice that there were going to be any depositions of PCSSD Board members taken today. He told me he had to be in Shannon Hills all day where he acts as the prosecuting attorney, and would be there until approximately 7 o'clock tonight prosecuting cases. He asked me to note his objection, John, on the record. And he indicated to me he was going to reserve the right to I guess move to preclude the use of these depositions if he saw fit. I didn't talk to him, but I understand that Mr. Heller cannot be here. I don't know that that's all that important. But I think he wanted me to note on the record that he was not notified either. It's my understanding that someone will be here from Steve Jones' office, but that he cannot be here. MR. WALKER: Thank you. EXAMINATION BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 BY MR. WALKER: Q. A. Q. Mr. Matthews, what is your name? Doyan Matthews. Mr. Matthews, you're the immediate past President of the Board of Pulaski County? A. Q. Yes. The Board has taken certain action in the name of budget cuts for the forthcoming school term
is that correct? A. Yes, sir, that's correct. Q. Can you tell me what is proposed for the next school year with respect to budget matters that differs from last year? A. Well, reorganization in the administration top level, the cabinet, Mr. Lester's cabinet, would be the elimination of two assistant superintendents, Mr. Billy Bowles and Mr. Ed Hogan, cutting several coordinators. MR. JONES: Refer to that list if you need to. Q. Now, can you tell me whether or not what was proposed was reduced to writing before it was voted upon? A. Q. A. I didn't see the list until the night we voted on it. Do you have a copy of that before you now? As far as the reorganization of the administration, I don't have a copy of that. MR. WALKER: Mr. Jones, do you have a copy of that? MR. JONES: I don't. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. ( 501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 ~ ~ 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 A. There had been several Board members had encouraged Mr. Lester in personnel at various times, that the public figured we needed to make reorganization or cuts in administration in order to pass the millage. I was not one of those Board members. I compared what we spent. We spent $260 per student on administration cost. North Little Rock spends $280. Little Rock spends $480. I felt like we had made substantial cuts in administration prior to this. The reason I voted for it that night, if I had had more time I was not sure I would have voted for it. But Mr. Lester had told me prior to that meeting that afternoon that he had talked with his cabinet, they understood what had to be done. They supported it. Therefore I voted for it that night. Q. Mr. Matthews, can you tell me whether or not the Board acted on the initiative of itself, or on the initiative of the Superintendent of Schools in proposing a specific reorganization plan? MR. JONES: Let me object to the form of the question, because it just assumes those were the only two possible sources of the initiative. For instance, just by way of example -- MR. WALKER: I'll change it. MR. JONES: I want to go ahead and suggest to you what you need to plug in. If you'll review the minutes you'll see that a big part of the initiative came from PACT. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 6 A. Let me just say this. I can't speak for all Board members, but I can speak for myself. And I never told Bobby Lester to make a reorganization of administration. Now, whether other Board members did, I'm not sure. Q. (BY MR. WALKER) I'm only now concerned about what happened in formal Board meetings, rather than behind the scenes or in private conversation. Was there ever a Board directive to Mr. Lester to present an administrative reorganization plan that was voted on in public? A. There was talk. But I don't ever remember a directive from the Board. I just can't remember the Board directing him to do that. Q. A. Q. A. All right. But I do remember us talking about it. Now, was that talked about in public Board meetings? It was when we done the budget cuts and discussion in open Board meetings, yes, it has been discussed. Q. A. But there was never a Board directive? To my knowledge, no. MR. JONES: Are you talking about like a resolution saying Mr. Superintendent you shall? MR. WALKER: Or you're authorized or whatever. We'd like to have you present by a time certain. MR. JONES: You're not suggesting it required a resolution, are you? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 _ , 7 MR. WALKER: Sam, I'm trying to keep my deposition cost and my time. If you've got some objection, then just let's do them. Q. (BY MR. WALKER) Did the Board ever receive a written response to the suggestion that there should be administrative reorganization? A. Not to my recollection. I never received it. Q. So Mr. Lester's office never prepared a proposal for the Board's consideration for reorganization, that was presented to the Board before the night that the matter was voted upon? A. I don't remember myself getting a copy of that reorganization prior to that meeting. Like I say, I can only speak for myself. I'm not sure of the other Board members. Since I'm no longer President this year, my job is kind of demanding sometime, and I'm not as involved as some of the other Board members. Q. Now, with respect to what you know about this matter, do you recall what instructions were given to the administration as to the criteria to be utilized in any reorganization proposal? A. I don't remember any. Q. There were none? A. I don't remember. I'm not sure whether there were or there weren't. I don't remember. Q. When did the Board go on record as proposing reorganization, a formal vote? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. ( 501) 3 72-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. The night we voted on the budget cuts and approved the reorganization is the only time that I know of. Q. Now, before you submitted it to the Board, did you all submit it to the Joshua Intervenors? A. Q. Not to my knowledge. Did you present it to PACT? 8 A. No. I don't think anybody seen it prior to the night of the meeting. Q. Do you know whether any PACT representative was involved in helping to formulate the plan? A. I certainly hope not. If there were I certainly don't know it. There shouldn't have been. Q. Who prepared or presented the reorganization plan to the Board on the night that it was voted on? A. Q. Mr. Lester. Did Mr. Lester make any comments about why he was presenting it? A. Just that there had been -- Board members are allowed, as Board members we can put anything on recommendation as far as budget cuts. And evidently, to the best I can remember, some Board members told Mr. Lester that we want to see a proposed reorganization of administration. And as I said, I was not one of those Board members. Q. A. Who were those Board members? Well, I'm not real sure because that list that we had that BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 - 9 night of the draft, it didn't have who put what on the list. Q. But to your knowledge who were those Board members? A. Well, I know Ms. Tatum had talked about administration. And I remember her saying in public meetings that until there's some cuts right down here, that her community would never support a millage. I know McAlister voiced and said that there was -- I think pretty much all the Board members but maybe me and Dr. Cooley. And I don't remember if he ever Q. Well, budget cuts are one thing, and proposed reorganization is another? A. You're wanting to know who put the proposed organization from the Board? Q. Yes. A. I'm not sure. All I seen was when we voted on it that night there was the draft, the proposed. And when we went back into executive session there was some changes made. I can't really remember those changes exactly. Q. Did you all consider the budget cut proposals in executive session? A. No, just the part dealing with personnel. Q. Well, I mean, the whole thing dealt with personnel. So my question is, did you all consider the budget cuts in executive session? A. Well, I guess we did, because we talked about the personnel, that part of it. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 - 10 Q. Now, you had not given notice to any of the people who may have been affected, that you were going to consider their personnel status in that executive session, did you? A. Not to my knowledge. Q. Now, to this date have you given any persons who were adversely affected by the reorganization notice that they may appear before the Board to challenge their demotions? A. We have a grievance procedure. Q. My question though is, have you given any formal notice to these persons? A. No. Q. In other words Mr. Bowles has not been told, has not been formally advised in writing by certified mail, as far as you know, that his position is being changed, and that if he wishes to grieve it he must do so within a time certain? A. I think according to our policies, that any person that their job has been eliminated has to be notified by I think May the 1st. So I'm sure that was done. Q. Was it done by certified mail? A. I don't know. It should have been. Anybody, not just Mr. Bowles, but anybody's position that was eliminated should have been notified. Q All r i g ht. A. To me, certain mail would be the best way. Q. But the Board had already participated, already considered BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 11 the personnel ramifications of the individual persons associated with the budget cuts? A. Well, when we consider budget cut, I don't look at personalities. Q. That's fine. In the executive meeting did you all consider personalities? A. No. Q. You did not? A. No. Q. So you went into executive session to discuss personnel matters, but you did not personnel, at least personalities, you only considered financial considerations? A. Financial considerations. Q. All right. Now, in the budget cut, executive session, were there minutes taken? A. No. Q. was a tape recorder running? A. No, not in executive session. Q. Do you ever have the tape running? A. No. Q. So there's no system of recording what goes on in the executive sessions? A. No. Sometimes Dr. Cooley takes notes, as far as Board Secretary, about who made a motion to approve or disapprove, and then we have to vote on it in open session, I believe is the way BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 12 it's always worked. Q. But you don't have a procedure for transcribing the proceedings within executive session? A. Q. No. That way nobody can ever know what went on in executive session
is that right? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Is that the purpose of having executive sessions? No, I wouldn't think so. Especially where you're not considering recommendations from the superintendent? A. Q. That's the way it's been done since I've been on the Board. Did anyone ever ask Mr. Lester to make an assessment, at least in the executive session, to make an assessment of the effect that some of these changes would have upon the operation of his administration? A. we talked about that. Because any time you add duties to people that are already what we consider loaded, it's going to be hard to handle. When you increase your workload it's a change. Q. was one of the purposes of the proposed reorganization to effect budget cuts? A. The only purpose of reorganization was for the purpose of saving the district money. Q. And how much money did you all direct be saved? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 13 A. I don't remember the exact figures from that night. Q. Before Mr. Lester began his effort, pursuant to the various notes and comments that had been made, or notations and comments that had been made here and there at Board meetings and otherwise, did the Board ever determine how much money it wanted to save? A. Well, each item on the budget cut list had a projected savings, so, yes. I think what we were looking at, we felt like this year in this school year maybe with $500,000 surplus, the next year we're looking at a 2 1/2 million dollar deficit if the millage had not have passed. The millage next year will bring in 1.4 million. So we were still looking at a pretty substantial. Q. My question, Mr. Matthews, is what was the anticipated or the projected amount of savings that you and the Board members directed Mr. Lester to work toward? A. I don't remember the exact figure. Q. was there a figure ever presented and adopted by the Board before Mr. Lester undertook his work? A. I can't remember that. Q. In other words nobody went to Mr. Lester to say, we want to save in administrative cuts $50,000, or $100,000, or $200,000? MR. JONES: Do you want him to look at this list, John, or do you just want to test his memory? MR. WALKER: No. I'm talking about before he did BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 14 it. A. The administration costs I don't think are on that list. MR. JONES: Yeah, they are. A. I don't remember the exact figures. Like I say, the directions didn't come from me. Q. I see. A. It did not come from me. Personally, if I had had more time to consider it. But I didn't see it until that night. So I went in and talked to Mr. Lester. He said his cabinet understood that there had to be cuts made. This was something that they had all looked at, and they felt like they could live with. That's fine, I'll support it. Q. Now, how much attention did the Board give to the desegregation plan when it contemplated the reorganization, formally, I'm just talking about formally? A. we talked a lot about it. Q. Formal action only, Mr. Matthews. Did the Board consider the desegregation plan in a formal way when it contemplated the reorganization? A. You mean as far as what kind of exact impact will this have on desegreg~tion? Q. You may take that. A. I don't remember that. Q. You did not as far as you know? A. Right. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 15 Q. Incidently, before you all voted on this matter, did you seek Mr. Jones' counsel? A. I didn't. Q. Did anybody ask the question on the night this was voted upon, what is counsel's view about this matter? A. I don't think Sam was even there that night. MR. JONES: I'll stipulate that I was not consulted. Q. Now, my understanding of the desegregation plan is that anything that may have desegregative impact had to be run first by the Office of Desegregation
is that also yours? A. Yes. Q. Was this matter approved by the Office of Desegregation? A. No, not to my knowledge. Q. Do you understand the organizational structure that was approved in the desegregation plan? A. That night I d id . I had it before me . I studied it. I don't have it before me right now as far as Q. The one that was approved in the desegregation plan? A. You mean the original plan? Q. Yes. A. I understood that. Q. Do you understand that the present organizational structure is different from the organizational structure approved in the desegregation plan? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 A. Yes, I understand that. Q. Now, what is the difference? A. The primary difference is that we had an assistant superintendent in charge of desegregation. And that position has been eliminated, and now we have a Director of Desegregation, I think that's the title, which is Mr. Billy Bowles, and Eddie Collins has taken on part of those job duties. Q. Did anybody ever ask Mr. Lester if this was his proposal, and if he favored that? A. Yes. Q. Who asked him that? A. He said it was the cabinet's, something that they could live with. So I'm sure he talked to the cabinet in staff meeting. Q. Well, you understand that all administrators are going to say they can live with anything that a superintendent proposes. But my question is a little bit different. My question basically is, did Mr. Lester indicate that this was something that had the specific approval of the Office of Desegregation? A. I don't remember. Q. Before it was presented to the Board? A. I didn't ask him that. Q. Now, do you understand the role of the Assistant superintendent of Desegregation as it relates to the plan? A. He oversees the plan, to me. That's his title is to see BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 17 that the plan is carried out to the letter. Q. Do you recall Mr. Lester assuring the court that Mr. Bowles would be that person? A. Yes. MR. JONES: I'm going to have to object to the form of the question, because I don't think the record will bear that out. MR. WALKER: I'm asking about his recollection. Whether it does or doesn't. It's his recollection that's important now. Q. (BY MR. WALKER) Do you recall that assurance by Mr. Lester? A. Q. A. I wasn't in court. But you understood I understand, yeah, what you're saying, is that Mr. Bowles, that's his job is to carry out the desegregation plan. Q. And you understood Mr. Lester to commit that the Director of Desegregation would always carry the title or at least be in a position of oversight of all of the other persons other than himself? MR. JONES: Now you're talking about a position as opposed to a personality? A. Q. MR. WALKER: Position, yes. I assume that. (BY MR. WALKER) Now, how familiar are you with the entire BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 ] 7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 plan? A. Well, I'm more familiar with the part that directs the areas that I represent, zone 3. But I have a pretty good understanding of the overall plan. Have you ever read the entire plan? ]8 Q. A. When, I first got on the Board, every time a plan would come out I'd sit down and try to read it. About the time I'd get through it, throw that one away, here's the new one. I've got stacks of plans that tall. (Indicating) So I can't sit and tell you that I've read every one of them. MR. JONES: The witness is indicating you're showing a stack about 3 feet tall. A. Right. Probably taller than that. We used to call them the March plan or the May plan, and we run out of months. Q. Is there any reason you didn't consult or no one thought to consult Mr. Jones before you undertook this action on this matter? A. Well, like I say, there was Board members that had a whole lot more input into this than I did. Q. A. Q. If you don't know, Mr. Matthews, simply say I don't know. Right, sure. I don't know. How much money will actually be saved by the proposed budget cuts? A. I don't have a figure right before me. I don't remember exactly. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Did you have any document A. I had it that night. 19 MR. WALKER: Do you have any such documents with you, Mr. Jones? MR. JONES: Well, we've got this list of possible cuts. I don't think there's any dispute that there was a target figure, John, the Board was working toward. 2 1/2 million. I think it's undisputed they were working toward a total savings of 2 1/2 million. Q. My question is, what was the amount of cuts that was supposed to come from the Office of Desegregation? A. I don't remember. All it says is administrative reorganization. Q. What was the budget for the Office of Desegregation? A. I don't remember that either. Q. What is the present budget of the Office of Desegregation? A. I'm not sure. Q. was that question asked at any time during your deliberations? A. No. You mean at the Board meeting when we voted on the cuts? Q. Yes. A. No. Q. Now, you all do try to allocate budgets to each department? A. Right. I can tell you what the overall budget is, but I BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 20 can't tell you what the budget is for support services exactly. Q. What is the intended use of the savings that you contemplated? A. Well, at some point in time -- my biggest concern -- Q. I'm just talking about the Board's now, I'm not talking about you personally. MR. JONES: He's already explained, unless the Board has articulated something he knows to be the Board's position, he can only speak for himself. Q. (BY MR. WALKER) I want to know if the Board has agreed upon an intended direct use of the anticipated savings? A. To keep us from bankruptcy. Q. To avoid bankruptcy? A. Right. Q. Now, this was done before the millage passed, right? A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, is there any fear of bankruptcy at this time without the budget cuts? A. We feel looking at a projected deficit next year, the part that concerns me and several of the other Board members have voiced this, is that when the deseg money runs out 95-96, we're going to have to start belt tightening right now. Q. My question is, is there any fear for 1992 or for 1993 of bankruptcy? A. Not bankruptcy, but deficit spending. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 21 Q. Now, why was it necessary to affect the Office of Desegregation at all by budget cuts, since you only had maybe three people or four people related to it? A. I really don't know. That was just what was presented to the Board. And it was my knowledge that they all had input into the list, to the cuts. MR. JONES: Just so we're tracking, John. That was one item on a comprehensive list. And there were some items on there that the Board .declined to cut or did not reach and discuss
is that fair to say? A. Right. And then there was some that we Q. May I see the list you're referring to? A. Sure. (A recess was had.) Q. I'm looking at a document which is entitled, "PCSSD Budget Reduction Considerations, March 17, 1992." Can you draw my attention to the area where the Office of Desegregation is included? A. Item 12, administration reorganization. Q. All right. And the expected savings was to be $137,800? A. That's on the overall reorganization of administration. Q. Of administration? A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, have you seen the analysis that the "Democrat Gazette" did on June 19, 1992? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. 22 No. I show you Mr. Shameer's assessment. Yeah, I did see this. I'm sorry. "Savings scant in two school demotions." Q. Now, since this came out, have you asked Mr. Lester, have you had occasion to ask Mr. Lester to respond to this? A. Q. this? A. Q. No, I have not. Do you agree that the savings are in fact very scant from Yes, I do. In other words none of these savings that were projected -MR. JONES: John, I guess for the record I need to object to you using an article from the newspaper. Maybe if I could glance at it. MR. WALKER: This is a deposition. It's not trial. MR. JONES: I understand. Let me just object, because in the first paragraph it makes it clear they're only talking about two assistant superintendents, and therefore does not address the entire administrative reorganization you've already asked the witness about. A. Personally I never have had a problem with reinstatement of the two assistant superintendents. Q. Did any of the Board members have a problem with that, as far as you know? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-51] 5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 - 23 A. I do not know because I have not communicated with them on that. Q. Now, with respect to changing job descriptions of persons, like you're really talking about here Mr. Collins and Mr. Bowles. If Mr. Collins is going to take over the overall Office of Desegregation, would that not require some different duties for Mr. Collins than he had before? A. Certainly. Q. That means he'll have to be trained more? A. Yes. Q. That means that he'll have to make adjustments that are pretty difficult, such as becoming aware of various things that are not reduced to writing in the district over the last two or three years? A. I think all of our top administrators are very -- they're up on the desegregation plan. They all have a really good knowledge of it, and the goals of it, the time table of it. Not just Mr. Collins, Mr. Lester, Mr. Bowles, they all do. Q. Well, I guess you could say that they all are pretty much up on what each other does? A. Yes. But what you're saying is their exact duties? Q. Yes. A. I see what you're saying. Q. Now, are you saying that a novice could be brought in and perform the function of Assistant Superintendent for BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 ]4 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 24 Desegregation without training? A. I think if anybody could handle it, Mr. Collins is a top notch administrator, and in my opinion one of the finest. Q. We're not asking you to validate Mr. Collins or devalidate Mr. Bowles. A. I also think the same of Mr. Bowles. I think they're both very fine administrators. MR. JONES: Do you want to still ask him a hypothetical question about bringing a novice in? I'm not sure where that's going to take us. Q. If you really wanted to effect savings you could have terminated some people, couldn't you? A. Well, you don't terminate people. You terminate their position, but then they just bump down, and then the person at the bottom is the one that's terminated. Q. Fine. But you could have terminated a number of positions all together? A. Well, over years that's been done. Q. That's right. A. Sure has. Q. Now, in this situation, according to this article, there are no real substantial savings here. Mr. Lester's salary comes down less than 8 percent, and he voluntarily agreed to do that anyway. MR. JONES: Why don't you just get him to confirm BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 25 numbers instead of being subjective. MR. WALKER: All right. Thank you, Mr. Jones. I'm trying to be very brief. Q. (BY MR. WALKER) You have the article I've shown you? A. Yes. Q. It is clear that Mr. Lester and these other persons had already agreed to take voluntary reductions, hadn't they? A. Right. Q. So if they're taking the voluntary reductions, are they also having their salaries decreased beyond the voluntary reductions? A. Well, Mr. Bowles would not qualify I don't think of the voluntary, because that was the assistant superintendent's. Q. Listen to my question. All of them you said have agreed or had agreed to voluntary reductions? A. Right. Q. Now, all of the directors had also agreed to voluntary reductions, hadn't they? A. I don't think all the directors had agreed. I don't think they had. Q. Well, how many people had not agreed in the administration, the top administration? A. The top, you're talking Q. The top 15 or 20 people. A. I don't really remember the names. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 Q. But virtually all of them had agreed to reductions, hadn't they? A. Pretty close to all of them. Q. They had agreed on an 8 percent reduction, and that was the amount that you all asked them to take, wasn't it? A. They was the amount they offered to take. We didn't put a number on it. Q. Now, let me just ask you about Mr. Lester's salary. His salary in 1992 will be $83,653, it seems? A. Yes. Q. And that purports to be a $6,370 decrease? A. Right. Q. So that meant that he had a $90,000 salary? A. Yes. Q. 8 percent of $90,000 is $7,200? A. Yes. Q. This decrease is less than he had voluntarily agreed to take, isn't it? A. I hadn't put the figures on it. But yeah, if he's taking an 8 percent decrease. Maybe Mr. Shameer's math is not real good. Q. But I'm saying if his salary is $90,000, 8 percent of $90,000 is $7,200. MR. LESTER: Well, what we agreed to do, Mr. Walker, is to give back 8 percent of 13.05 percent raise we got. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 - We didn't agree to take a 8 percent reduction in our total salary. And Mr. Matthews knows that. A. Yes. Q. 8 percent of the raise. 27 A. 13.25 percent raise that we gave administrators, that's what we're talking about. Q. The 13 percent raise A. They would still have a 5 percent from last year. Not this past year that just ended, but the one before. Q So i f he had a r a i s e of - - A. You're comparing his salary this year, this school year that just ended the previous school year, right? Q. Yes. A. Then he's still going to have an increase. MR. JONES: Nobody stated it right yet. Instead of getting a 13 percent raise, he's only going to get a 5 percent raise. A. He's still going to be making 5 percent more than he made. MR. LESTER: You're taking 8 percent of our total salary, Mr. Walker. MR. BURNETTE: This isn't going to be a decrease at all in their salaries. MR. LESTER: Yes, it is. $6,300 decrease over the next year of what I made this year. Q. (BY MR. WALKER) What we have here then is a situation BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. ( 501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 28 where you really haven't affected savings because everybody is going to make more this year than they made last year? MR. JONES: I'll object to the form of the question, because it's going to affect savings over the raise that everybody had otherwise been awarded that they could count on for the next year, and they voluntarily agreed to reduce that substantially. Q. (BY MR. WALKER) was there ever a Board vote on a specific motion about the raise reductions? A. we accepted the offer of the 8 percent. Q. Who made the offer? A. It was in the budget cuts. I don't know who put it in there. Q. was it ever -- A. I think there was a letter from the directors, some of the directors and the whole superintendent's cabinet saying that they would voluntarily take an 8 percent cut for '92 and '93 school year. Q. Will you acknowledge that at least for Mr. Altom, Collins, Miller, Bowles, Hogan, Stewart and Lester, their salaries will not be decreased from 1991-92 during 1992-93? MR. JONES: We'll stipulate to that. MR. LESTER: we received that full salary this year. We received it this year. We're going to make less next year than we did this year. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 29 MR. JONES: Let me withdraw my stipulation. I'm in error. A. It makes it looks like they're cheating, and they're not. MR. WALKER: It does make it seem that there is no agreement between a Board member, counsel and the superintendent about what happened. And I'm just trying to find out really what happened. Can we have a stipulation, Mr. Jones, that there is no agreement between the Board -- MR. JONES: No. MR. WALKER: That's fine. MR. JONES: I shouldn't have stuck my nose in it, because I don't know anything about it. MR. WALKER: I'm glad you did. Can we stipulate that you don't know anything about it? MR. JONES: We can stipulate that I don't know anything about it, and I just proved it. A. The cabinet is taking a pay decrease, the superintendent's cabinet. Q. (BY MR. WALKER) Well, how much of a pay decrease is the superintendent's cabinet taking, according to information that you have been provided? A. 8 percent less than they made this past school year. MR. LESTER: That's not right, Mr. Matthews. (Off-the-record.) A. Maybe I don't understand exactly. There's a lot of things BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 in school financing I don't understand. Q. I just want you to state what you understood, and you stated it. A. Okay. Could I clarify it a little bit? Q. Go ahead, to the best of your ability. 30 A. To the very best of my ability, at the beginning of last year, July 1 a year ago, we gave all of our top administrators a 13.04 raise. They draw that salary this whole year. Then next year they're going to draw 8 percent less. 8 percent, they voluntarily took an 8 percent cut, is the way I understand it. MR. LESTER: In the raise, not overall salary. A. In the raise. Q. (BY MR. WALKER) Let me just go with Mr. Matthews, because one of the things that I want to be able to show is that nobody knows what happened. And Mr. Matthews is now helping me to demonstrate that point. Now, isn't it your understanding that the voluntary salary reductions are set forth on line 18 of what we better call Exhibit 1 to this deposition? A. Line 18, voluntary salary reductions, estimated savings $35,078. (Deposition Exhibit 1 was marked.) Q. What are the estimated reductions from the reorganization of the top administrators? A. You're talking about the cabinet? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-51]5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 - 31 Q. Yes. A. I don't know. I'm not sure. Q. Did you all ever ask that question at a Board meeting? A. I'm sure it was brought up, because it was broken down at some point in time. Q. Was it broken down in writing? A. I don't remember. We had so many budget cuts, projected budget cuts, it was reorganized. We could rank it any way we wanted. MR. WALKER: If it was done I'd like to request now, Mr. Jones, a copy of what the proposed savings to the cabinet members were, what the proposed savings which came from the reduction of the cabinet members pursuant to their raises was. MR. JONES: You mixed two different things. MR. WALKER: Let me restate it then. I would like to understand what the cost savings were from the reorganization which applied to the cabinet. MR. JONES: I don't have a better figure than what you've got on what you just marked as an exhibit. What I'm not clear about is if the reorganization extended beyond the cabinet. John, if you'll just put your questioD whet were the projected savings from the administrative reorganization, I will say that's the figure on that exhibit the Board had that night. Q. (BY MR. WALKER) Let me ask you this. Did you ever have a BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 position-by-position projection of savings? A. No. 32 Q. Did you ever ask whether or not such a document was ever prepared by the administration? A. Not to my recollection. Q. Now, you do understand that if they're going to make a projection of savings they have to do it on a position-by-position basis, don't they? A. Like I say, that's been too long ago for me to remember. Q. But in order for them to come up with a composite figure, they have to have a listing and a -- A. You have to have the total and they have to break it down. Q. But you never saw that document? A. I don't remember seeing it. Q. What is here, what is number 24, it says, "RED. SUPT. CONT. by adding 2 percent?" What does "RED." stand for? A. Reduce, I guess. Reduce support staff contract by an additional 2 percent, and add that to number 18 above, which is "Accept all voluntary salary reductions." Q. So you're going to reduce the superintendent's contract by adding 2 percent -- MR. JONES: Not the superintendent, the support staff. MR. WALKER: What is "SUPT" abbreviated for? MR. JONES: I'm sorry, that is superintendent. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 33 I've forgotten about that one. A. I'm sorry, I was thiriking support staff. It says, "Reduce superintendent's contract by an additional 2 percent," that's right. Q. A. Q. A. All right. Then it says add to number 18 above. so we couldn't do that. So that didn't happen? We couldn't do it. He's under contract. A contract is signed. Q. So this is a reduction consideration which was proposed by Mr. Lester himself? A. No. MR. JONES: No. Q. Well, who proposed this document here? MR. JONES: That line item? MR. WALKER: No, the whole document. A. I could put stuff in there. Anybody could have. As far as who put that on there, I have no idea. MR. JONES: John, this was a master list typed up to reflect anybody and everybody's suggestions, Board members and whoever. Q. A. Q. A. Did you all vote on an overall document? What we do is take it line-by-line. So you all had a separate vote on each line? Yes. The year before I think we would take it like down BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 34 through line 17, and everything from 17 up was cut. This time we took it line-by-line. Q. A. Q. So I take it that you all voted down item 24? Well, we had no choice. But you did vote that down. were other items on this document A. We didn't take a vote on item 24. We said he's under contract. The contrcc t js si gned. Q. Well, all these other people were under contract, and their contracts were signed? A. Q. His is a three year contract, and theirs is year-to-year. But under state law a person's salary cannot be reduced from year-to-year, can it? A. Q. A. Q. A. It happened to me three years in a row. But I'm saying for teachers? Yeah. Non-superintendents? It's happening all over the state. Teachers' salaries are being froze. Their steps are being froze. If that's not a cut in salaries what is, especially with the step. Q. I'm talking about changing it or reducing it from what it was the previous year? A. Like cutting it 2 percent from the year before. Q. So you all couldn't have cut the teachers salaries except with their permission or consent? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 35 A. I suppose we could. They would sue us. The Board considers pretty much what they want to do financially, but you just got to bear the consequences. Q. So this document which is Exhibit 1 was never acted on and approved in its form as it's presented to -- A. Q. A. Q. As a whole? Yes. It never was. It never was. So do you have a document which reflects the budget reductions on an item-by-item basis that could be made available to the court right now? A. No, I don't have it with me. MR. JONES: To be fair, the minutes take them item-by-item. You can compare the votes taken in the minutes to what you got in your hand and you'll be there. Q. Have you ever seen a document prepared which lists everything? A. Q. A. Q. Everything that was cut? Yes. No. All right. And you've had since March 17 to do that, haven't you? A. Q. Yeah. If I had wanted it they would have gave it to me. That means it has not then been presented to us or to the court? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. 36 I didn't present it to you. Okay. Now, you all have a general pattern or history, do you not, of having the supervisor of a particular division be the top paid person in that division? A. Well, all I know is that I've only been on the Board four years, and you're saying history
to me, that goes way back. Q. During your four years isn't it true that the assistant superintendent for department A would usually be the highest person in that department? A. Should be. The supervisor, we've got teachers that make more per day than the principal they work for. Q. But that's in part due to the fact that you have a principal's salary schedule and a teacher's salary schedule? A. Q. Right. But in terms of the central office, those administrative positions have ranked -- A. I don't think that's necessarily so, because I think Mr. Fitzgerald makes more than Bobby Altom. I'm not sure. But I know it's real close. MR. JONES: We'd stipulate that's correct. A. Because Mr. Altom has not been with the district as long as Mr. Fitzgerald. Mr. Altom was hired in as an assistant superintendent, and Mr. Dennis Fitzgerald has came up through the ranks, therefore he's probably got 25 years with the district. I would go ahead and say that that's not always the BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 37 case. Q. That's fine. Now, in terms of promoting the millage, did you have occasion to promote the millage? A. In my area I worked for the millage. Q. Do you remember anybody indicating that unless this millage passed the PCSSD would be absorbed by Little Rock? A. There was more rumors and stuff. Q. I'm not asking what happened. I'm just asking as far as a specific answer to that question. Do you remember promoting the millage on the basis that unless it passed PCSSD would be absorbed by Little Rock? A. That was one of the options that people heard. People would say, what will happen if the school district goes under. So, yes, that was discussed. Q. All right. Now, was the fact that Little Rock was majority black discussed? A. No. Q. Not by you? A. Not by me. Not by the people that I spoke with. Q. Have you sat in on any of the court proceedings regarding this case? A. Yes. Q. Are you aware that the 8th Circuit has repeatedly stated that finances or lack thereof have no bearing on the implementation of the desegregation plan? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 38 A. Well, I know what Mr. Reville when I met with him, yes, I have read that on the 8th Circuit's orders. It wasn't their place to finance it. Q. Were you aware that Judge Arnold in the hearing just held this last week indicated that finances would not be a basis for cutting back on the desegregation promises? A. Right, I understood that. Q. Have you by this reorganization plan caused all of the administrators to have more responsibilities than they formerly had? A. All the administrators? Q. Yes. A. I would say so. Q. Isn't that another way of cutting back on desegregation promises? A. It could be interpreted that way. Q. Now, when you take someone like Mr. Bowles and you give him far more responsibilities, but less status, is not that a cut back in the significance of the Office of Desegregation? A. In my opinion I didn't think so. We're still as committed to desegregation as we ever were. It may slow the process down a little bit. We're still committed to it. We have a plan. We're going to follow the plan. Our goal as a djstrict is to gain unitary status. Q. You say it may slow the process down a little bit. What do BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 39 you mean by that? A. Well, we wanted to gain unitary status in two to three years, it may take three to four years. Q. From now? A. Well, from the time when the plan was adopted. Q. Is it your understanding that you all were intending to apply for unitary status within three years? A. No. I'd like to see us do it. That's kind of unrealistic. But I'm just using that as an example. Q. Can you tell me why Superintendent Lester, during the time you're talking about saving money, recommended a salary increase for the wife of the Board member Mr. Goss? A. Q. A. Mr. Lester did not recommend that. Well, she got a salary increase, didn't she? That may have happened at the last Board meeting and I was not there. Q. What is her position? A. She's the facilitator of health services. She filed a grievance and came before the Board. I voted against it, granting her grievance. Q. Now, you understand that that's sort of an awkward thing when you have a Board member's wife corning before the Board, even though he doesn't participate? A. Q. Right. I kind of could see that. Now, what happened was that she gets a salary increase. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 -:i ..
4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 40 Did ya'll give anybody else an increase this year other than her? A . I didn't vote for her salary increase. Q. I understand. But to your knowledge did anybody else get an increase? A. Q. No. Was Mr. Goss one of the persons promoting the reorganization? A. Q. He voted for it. I guess he promoted it. voting is one thing, but promoting is another. You voted for it also, and you didn't promote it? A. Q. Exactly. So to your information, based on hearsay or anything else, was Mr. Goss one of the A. Q. I would say yes. Would you say that Mr. Goss was one of the principal promoters of that, according to your information and understanding? A. Q. I'd say yeah. All right. Now, he promotes reorganization, and the sole beneficiary out of this whole thing is his wife? A. Q. That's what it looks like. All right. Have you ever been encouraged to pull in the reins on Mr. Bowles? A. No. Mr. Bowles is a fine man. He does a good job. I BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ~ think the world of Billy Bowles. He's a top notch administrator. 41 Q. Now, you know the reorganization will result in virtually all of the black persons in the central staff at the director or assistant superintendent level being in the same department? MR. JONES: I object to the form of the question. The record won't bear that out. Q. Who are the black persons who before the reorganization had to your knowledge director status or assistant superintendent status? A. Mr. Collins is assistant superintendent. Mr. Bowles is assistant superintendent. Ruth Simmons Hertz was director of desegregation. Do you want assistant directors? Q. That's fine. A. Charles Green, assistant director of secondary ed. Q. Did Mr. Green not also have desegregation responsibilities? A. Yes. It's my understanding that all of our employees have desegregation responsibilities. Q. Do you not recall Mr. Lester representing to the court that Mr. Green was going to be afforded specific desegregation responsibility relating to the Office of Desegregation? A. I don't remember that exactly. I remember talk. But as far as the way it was presented to the court. Q. So Mr. Collins was in another department before this reorganization, wasn't he? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 42 A. Mr. Collins is assistant superintendent in charge of Pupil Personnel. Q. Pupil Personnel was one department headed by a black, and Desegregation was another department headed by a black person? A. Right. Q. And you combined those two departments? A. Yes. Q. Is there any particular reason that was given for combining the only two departments headed by black persons into one? A. We didn't look at it from a racial viewpoint. Q. Maybe you didn't. The desegregation plan says that you'll look at everything from a racial viewpoint, does it not? A. I don't remember the specifics as to how we discussed it. That makes it sound like we're going to stick these two blacks together here. Q. I'm not saying you intentionally did. That's obviously the effect. You didn't discuss it, did you? A. No. That night in personnel we discussed the effect that it was going to have on the black people in the administration. We did discuss that. I don't remember exactly what all was said. Q. I figured ya'll talked a little bit more than about personnel, about things that were not specific personnel problems. You all discussed the desegregation policy in executive committee, didn't you? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372- 5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. 43 No. You just said it. we talked about the black people that were affected. There was more white people affected than there were black people. Q. But you did discuss that. And you didn't discuss it in the public Board meeting? A. Q. A, Q. A. Q. Yeah. Did you discuss it in the public Board meeting? I don't remember. Did you discuss it in the private session? I think, yeah, we did. That's fine. Incidently, did you ever ask Mr. Lester why he recommended a salary increase for Mrs. Goss? MR. JONES: Let me stop you, John. I don't know if I should object to the form of your question, because I don't know if the predicate is correct. It assumes that Mr. Lester did, and I don't know one way or another. Q. Let me ask you, you all don't act on specific cases involving salary increases or grievance resolutions unless it comes to you on recommendation from the Superintendent's Office, do you? A. Right. She filed a grievance. Mr. Lester turned her grievance down. She brought it to the School Board. We turned it down. I think they voted on it at the last meeting. She put it on there again. And I wasn't there, so I don't know. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 44 Q. I didn't understand that. You mean to say that she had a grievance? A. She filed a grievance. Q. She lost the grievance before Mr. Lester? A. And then she brought it to the School Board. Q. And then the Board turned her down? A. What the Board did was said that we realize that she was wanting us to do it right then. And you can't do something during the year. And what we basically said was we'll look at it for next year, on the next year's contract. I think the Board approved that. Q. Here's my question. At the time it was presented to the Board the first time it was rejected
isn't that correct? A. As she presented it it was rejected. Q. so this was not action on a grievance, on a new grievance, this was a recommendation that had been made by Mr. Lester? A. Q. I was not there, so I don't know. That's fine. MR. WALKER: I'd like to request the paperwork regarding Mrs. Goss' circumstances be made available and capable of being used at trial. MR. JONES: I don't know that I can sit here and stipulate that it's relevant. MR. WALKER: We're not asking that it be stipulated for relevance. We just want to have it available so BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 45 that when we put Mr. Goss on the stand we can have it discussed. MR. JONES: I don't have any problem with that, John. I don't know if any part of that process implicates a personnel file that I might not be able to give you. To the extent that they are public records, and Mr. Lester could help me here, I think you're entitled to it. I just don't know because I've never looked at it. MR. WALKER: Well, we're going to be deposing Mr. Lester. So when Mr. Lester's testimony is given we'd like to have that file here, all the files relating to Mr. Goss and Mrs. Goss. Q. (BY MR. WALKER) Now, in the new reorganization in the revamped Office of Desegregation, except for the secretary all those persons will be black, won't they, and Pupil Personnel? A. All the people in Pupil Personnel? Q. Is there another Director of Pupil Personnel besides Mr. Coll ins? A. No. MR. JONES: You said all the people. Q. All the people at the director level or above will be of the black race? A. Right. Q. Do you have another department which is so heavily concentrated with black persons? A. Not to my knowledge. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 46 Q. What three administrators or four administrators -- well, was Mr. Lester responsible for redrawing the student assignment plan? MR. JONES: For what? Q. Are you familiar with the student assignment plans for this next year? MR. JONES: John, what does that have to do with the budget cuts? MR. WALKER: I'll explain it. A. Mr. Lester didn't draw the student assignment plan by himself. Q. (BY MR. WALKER) Who did? A. There was a bunch of people that had parts in that. Mr. Bowles primarily, he's the one I've always talked to about student assignment. Q. With respect to the budget reduction considerations, were there any cost savings effectuated by modifying the student assignment plan? A. The student assignment plans are not part of the budget cuts. MR. JONES: John, I've got to object to the whole form and premise of the question. MR. WALKER: All you have to do is object. There's no use making speeches on the record due to the time. MR. JONES: I'm going to explain my objection. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 - 47 MR. WALKER: Sam, do it quickly. MR. JONES: I'm going to do it real quick. The court approved the student assignment plan, and the Board did not consider changing something MR. WALKER: You weren't there, Sam. They didn't consult you. MR. JONES: It's not on the list. A. We didn't even discuss student assignment plans and budget cuts. Q. (BY MR. WALKER) Well, any time you start talking about reducing, at least adding to teachers' responsibilities or cutting teachers, you're necessarily going to affect the student assignment plan, aren't you? A. Teachers, you're talking about cutting their salary? Q. If you're reducing the number of staff persons, if you're cutting out coordinators, for instance, you're talking about having an impact on the student assignment plan, aren't you? MR. JONES: The student assignment plan or the desegregation plan? MR. WALKER: The student assignment portion of the desegrEgation plan. MR. JONES: That question makes no sense to me. I'll object to it. MR. WALKER: If he doesn't understand it, he doesn't understand it. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 48 Q. (BY MR. WALKER) Is there enough money available to restore the budget cuts proposed? A. Not totally. Maybe some of them. Personally, like I say, I would like to see -- Q. A. I'm asking about money availability now? Not right now. Because next year we're still looking at a deficit. It depends. I asked Mr. Lester earlier, what kind of revenue are we going to end this year with. It's still kind of cloudy. We're not sure. Q. Well, you all are required to give the step increases to the teachers who have not maxed out, aren't you? A. Q. Right. So you must operate at a deficit if necessary, if that's the only way that you can provide those mandated increases? MR. JONES: I object to the form of the question. They're not permitted to operate -- A. The School Board members are held liable if we operate at a deficit. I had heard that you could not cut steps, a teacher's step. That maybe the Attorney General had ruled on that. But then I've been told that you can freeze the steps. A lot of the districts around the state right now are doing that for the next year. Q. Can you tell me whether or not you've reviewed the budget for the end of this school year to determine whether or not there were any savings in any particular areas? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC, (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 49 A. When we get our -- Q. Just listen to the question. I'm not asking you for anything other than to tell me whether you've reviewed the budget for the end of this school year to determine whether or not there will be any savings in any areas? A. No, I haven't yet. Q. All right. I notice here that you don't deal with budget cuts and things such as utilities. Have you checked to determine whether or not you were going to try to reduce utilities? A. We cut that last year as far as the overall. The whole lighting system in all of our school district is on computer. Q. My question is, did you give any attention to other things that are reoccurring costs? A. That's been cut in years past. Q. Well, can you tell me whether or not -- tell me when the last time that was done? A. We met a year ago January in our much publicized board retreat in Hot Springs. we tried to cut the overall operating expenses of the schools, which that was included. Keeping the schools closed as much as possible. Q. You proposed to cut out a number of coordinators, don't you? A. Right, that was on the budget cut list. Q. Is it now necessary to cut out those coordinators? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 50 A. Well, let me say this. When we see how much revenue we're going to end this school year with, and I could better answer that. Q. My question is, what was the anticipated financial savings by cutting out the coordinators? And I'll give you this. A. Well, if it's on here then you've already read it. Q. Show me where it is? MR. JONES: It's not in one line item, John. You have to combine two, I think. MR. WALKER: Mr. Jones, I just want him to tell me. A. Right, it's not a line item. Q. That's fine. Mr. Matthews, did the coordinators perform any particular desegregation function during 1991-92, to your knowledge? A. To my knowledge every employee of our district provided -Q. You cut back on seven coordinators? A. Yes, I think it is. Q. would not that have an adverse impact on desegregation, the ability of the district to fulfill its desegregation obligations? A. Possible. Q. Possibly? A. But what good is a desegregation plan if you're bankrupt. Q. Did you consider the desegregation aspect of the budget BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. ,(501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 - cuts of the coordinators? A. Are you saying did we discuss that openly? Q. Yes. A. I do not remember. Q. Now, you also decided to cut or reduce a number of secretaries and other support staff, did you not? A. It seems like support staff gets hit pretty regular. 51 Q. Now, with respect to support staff, you're talking about bus drivers and people like that, are you not? A. You can't cut bus drivers. But, yeah, that's a support staff. Q. And this also will have an adverse impact upon desegregation, will it not? A. Everything we do in this school district is part of our desegregation, every employee has a part in it. Q. Has any Board member asked Mr. Lester to present an analysis of the desegregative impact of the budget cuts? A. I can only speak for myself. And I have not. As far as the other Board members, I cannot answer for them. Q. Now, you all remember the concerns that we had -for Fuller Junior High School, and you had people coming there and making proposals for various things at Fuller Junior High School, and you approved them? A. For the Futures Program. Q. Right. That was going to be desegregative? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 52 A. Yes. Q. And that's one of the times when you all allowed one of the Board members to go over to work at Fuller. What was her name? She left the Board and went to work, if I'm not mistaken, at Fuller. What was her name? She was on the Board when we had the Green case. A. You're talking about Cheryl Dunn. She didn't go to Fuller. She went to Mills. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. She didn't work at Fuller at all? To my knowledge she didn't. The Futures Program is a desegregation program, isn't it? It's a tool to desegregate. was the Futures Program diminished by $45,000? No, not to my knowledge. You all didn't vote on that? No. It says that here. Where? At the bottom. (Witness viewing document.) "Tag-various schools," is that what you're talking about? Q. Look at Fuller Futures. A. "Specialty, Fuller Futures, "$27,270." We didn't approve that. It was on the list, but we didn't pass it. Everything on that list there was not passed. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 53 Q. Tell me the other things that were on the list that were not passed? Go down the list? A. Start at the top? Q. Just for the record, just indicate the item numbers that were not approved, only the item number? A. Item 2 was not approved. Q. Just number them? A. Number 4 I don't think was approved. I don't remember about 6. The 2 mile limit, we reinstated that. Item 7. Q. If you'd be kind enough to just list the ones that were not approved? MR. BURNETTE: was 7 approved or not approved? A. Both. We approved it, and then we reinstated it, because that's the 2 mile limit that says kids that live within 2 miles of the school have to get to school the best way they can. We're going to run the buses as we've always done. That's a big safety hazard. Item 13. Item 15, 17. Well, we approved 17. 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27. MR. JONES: Did you include 15? A. Yeah, I included 15, all out of district travel. MR. JONES: He asked you the ones that you did not cut. MR. WALKER: No. Did not approve. A. Did not approve. MR. JONES: Well, let's make sure we're tracking. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 54 Q. l(BY MR. WALKER) Let me go back. List only the i tern numbers which were not approved. And you said 2, 4, 13 -- A. Q. A. Q. we did not cut 2, 4. You did not cut? We did not cut. Listen to my question, Mr. Matthews. Only list the ones which were not approved, not the ones which were approved, the numbers? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Number 2. Okay. 4, 7, 8, 13, 15, 16. We cut all out of district travel. What number? That's number 15. We cut 16 by 50 percent. It was half approved? Yeah. Okay. Any others? 20, 21, 22, 23, 24 we didn't. We did 25. We didn't approve 26 or 27. Q. A. Q. So about half of the items were not approved? A bunch of them were not approved. Were there some others that were substituted and added to this list? A. Q. It would be on there. There would be an updated list. Did Mr. Lester indicate to you that it was necessary to have savings which were or at least seek to have savings which BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 55 were this deep, in other words a total of $7,766,000 or so? A. Mr. Lester didn't. The Board had more input into that. We had the list from the year before. Q. Did Mr. Lester make any separate recommendation of budget reductions that was different from what he was ordered or a i rec tea to a o? A. Q. No. Now, you didn't deal with the breakdown by category. Is it fair to say that everything on the bottom of this page was disapproved? A. No. We did not cut the specialty program at Fuller. Futures -- Q. A. You didn't cut -- We cut the coordinator. At the various schools we cut our Director of Athletics at central office. Q. A. So you all did what you call a line item veto? We went line-by-line. We could approve it or disapprove it by Board vote. Q. Mr. Matthews, who is the person who's most knowledgeable about these budget cuts? A. Q. A. Q. Dr . Stew a r t. Did Dr. Stewart sit in the executive sessions with ya'll? No, he did not. So when you all went into the executive session you did not have the most knowledgeable person in there with you to discuss BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 56 them? A. I don't recall calling him in there. I do not. Q. On the proposed budget reductions, did you suggest any of the items on Exhibit l? A. Maybe the 2 mile limit. We all kind of had that in mind. we talked about this the year before. Q. A. Q. A. Q. The 2 mile limit, you mean reducing Transportation, 2 mile limit. You were talking about reducing it? Cutting it out completely. We've since reinstated it. Did you relate in your budget cut proposals to that transportation which might affect desegregation? A. No, we didn't discuss the transportation from the deseg point of view when we was talking to the bus route and cutting the 2 mile limit. MR. WALKER: That's all I have. Thank you. 1(WHEREUPON, the above-entitled deposition was concluded at 12:40 p.m.) * * * * * * * * * * BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 u, n oo ~I-': uC..,: w -..) ::c t
'~ u, C I-' ::c ,_. I-: U1 1-! 2 G 1- !2 ( J N N N N NNl--'1--' u,~ W Nl--'0\0CXl I-' I-' I-' -..) O'I U1 I-' I-' ~ w I-' N I-' I-' -..) PULASKI COUNTY SPECIAL SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET REDUCTION CONSIDERATIONS MARCH 17, 1992 ITEM ESTIMATED NO. ITEM SAVINGS ITEMS FROM REDUCTION LIST DATED JANUARY 29, 1991 J1 1 TRANSPORTATION - MECHANICS HELPERS $34,960 J 2 SUPPLEMENTAL CONTRACTS - JR. HIGH $184,735 3 SECRETARY - INSTRUCTIONAL DIV. $57,000 4 TRANSPORTATION - LABORERS $15 ,750 I 5 COORD. SPEC. ED. / ED. EXAMINERS $46 ,000 ~ 6 SECRETARY - PLANT PLANNING $24,221 I 1 TRANSPORTATION -TWO MILE LIMIT Rei,,
s +11-I-e- $100,000 8 MAINTENANCE EMPLOYEES $106,424 9 SECONDARY INSTRUCTIONAL COORD. $172,397 10 ALPHA POSITIONS - FIVE DAY STUDENT LOAD $90,885 11 SECONDARY TAG POSITIONS $72,708 ADDITIONAL CONSIDERATIONS 12 ADMIN. REORG. (ADD TO NO. 5 & 9 ABOVE) $137,800 13 ALL EXTRA CURR. ACTIVITIES (ADD TO NO. 2 ABOVE) $428,265 14 ALL TEACHERS FULL LOAD (ADD TO NO. 10 ABOVE) . $181 ,770 15 ALL OUT-OF-DISTRICT TRAVEL $109,600 16 CUT IN-DISTRICT TRAVEL BY 50% $83,250 17 FREEZE ALL SALARIES (NO STEPS) $550,000 18 ACCEPT /',LL VOL. S:\L. REDUCTIONS $35,078 19 CUT PRINCIPAL'S/ ASSIST. PAIN. PER STUD. ALLOT. $36 ,887 20 FAMILY LIFE INSTRUCTORS $36,354 21 FOUR DAY WEEK $1 ,222,000 22 CLOSE SCHOOL EARLY '92 (5 DAYS) $1 ,500,000 23 CLOSE SCH. EARLY '92 (10 DAYS) (ADD TO NO. 22 ABV.) $1 ,500,000 24 RED. SUPT. CONT. BY ADD. 2% (ADD TO NO. 18 ABOVE) $1 ,593 25 ALL BD. OUT-OF-DISTRICT TRAVEL (INC. IN 15 ABOVE) $0 26 ALL CERT. SALARIES BY 2% $929,574 27 ALL SUPP. STAFF SALARIES BY 1% $108,788 ..
" EXHIBIT J 1- * BREAKDOWN BY CATEGORY PERIODS CATEGORY ' COST 9 SPECIAL TY - FULLER JR. $27,270 15 FUTURES PROG. - FULLER JR. $45,450 15 TAG - VARIOUS SCHOOLS $45,450 8 SPECIAL ED. COORD. - VARIOUS SCHOOLS $24,240 6 ATHLETIC COORD. - VARIOUS SCHOOLS $18,180 4 FOUR COURSE PREPS - VARIOUS SCHOOLS $12,120 2 SPEC. ED. LEARNING STRAT. $6 ,060 1 BAND .. $3 ,030 O'I U1 w r COMBINE:\ SAVINGS $34,960 $219,695 $276,695 $292,445 $338,445 $362,666 $462,666 $569,090 $741,487 $832,372 $905,080 $1 ,042,880 $1 ,471 ,145 $1,652,915 $1 ,762,515 $1 ,845,765 $2,395,765 $2,430,843 $2,467,730 $2,504,084 $3,726,084 $5,226 ,084 $6,726 ,084 $6 ,727,677 $6,727,677 $7,657,251 $7,766,039 N I t<J >< :i:: H tXl H t-3 I-' U1 -..) STATE OF ARKANSAS} }ss. COUNTY OF WHITE } C E R T I F I C A T E RE: THE ORAL DEPOSITION OF DOYAN MATTHEWS: I, JEFF BENNETT, CCR, LS #19, a Notary Public in and 58 for White County, Arkansas do hereby certify that the facts stated by me in the caption of the foregoing deposition are true
and that the foregoing deposition was transcribed by me, or under my supervision, on the Cimarron III Computerized Transcription System from my machine shorthand notes taken at the time and place set out on the caption hereto, the witness being first duly cautioned and sworn, or affirmed, to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this deposition was taken
and further, that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties hereto, nor financially interested, or otherwise, in the outcome of this action. GIVEN UNDER MY day of June, 1992. JEFF BENNETT, #19, Notary Public County, Arkansas My commission expires 11-29-2000 BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, I'NC. 201 East Sixth Street Little Rock, Arkansas 72202 (501) 372-5115 the 30th
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<dcterms_creator>Bushman Court Reporting</dcterms_creator>