Oral deposition of Judy Magness

Deposition taken at the Friday, Eldredge and Clark Law Firm, Little Rock, Arkansas
This transcript was created using Optical Character Recognition and may contain some errors.
CERTIFIED COPY IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS WESTERN DIVISION LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, PLAINTIFF vs No.LR-C-82-866 PULASKI COUNTY SPECIAL SCHOOL, DISTRICT NO. 1, ET AL DEFENDANT MRS. LORENE JOSHUA, ET AL KATHERINE KNIGHT, ET AL INTERVENORS INTERVENORS DEPOSITION OF MRS JUDY MAGNESS DATE: October 5, 2001 TIME: 1:07 p.m. PLACE: The Friday, Eldredge & Clark Law Firm 400 West Capitol, Suite #2200 Little Rock, AR 72201-3493 APPEARANCES On Behalf of the Plaintiff: On Behalf of the Defendants: Mr. John w. Walker, Attorney John w. Walker Law Firm 1723 Broadway Street Little Rock, AR 72206 Mr. Clay Fendley, Attorney Friday, Eldredge & Clark 400 West Capitol, Suite 2200 Little Rock, AR 72201-3493 ALSO PRESENT Joy Springer, The John w. Walker Law Firm Tony Rose, Sue Strickland, & Katherine Mitchell, Deponents Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box *4 Sweet Horne, AR 72164-0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 - 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 - CERTIFIED COPY AGREEMENT OF COUNSEL ... SWEARING OF THE WITNESS .. EXAMINATION OF MRS. JUDY MAGNESS By Mr. Walker .. SIGNATURE SHEET .... ERRATA SHEET. . COURT REPORTER'S CERTIFICATION .. * * * * * * * * * Cobb Court Reporting P. O. Box #4 sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: ( 501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax PAGE . . . 3 . . 3 .3-67 . . 68 .69 . 70 1 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 3 STIPULATIONS The deposition of Judy Magness, produced, sworn and examined at the Friday, Eldredge & Clark Law Firm, 400 west Capitol, Suite #2200, Little Rock, AR 72201-3493 commencing at 1:07 p.m., on October 5, 2001, in the captioned cause at the instance of counsel for the Plaintiff, and said deposition being taken according to the terms and provisions of the Arkansas Rules of Civil Procedure. It is stipulated and agreed all forms and formalities in the taking, transcribing, forwarding and filing of said deposition by witness, are hereby waived by the parties, the right being expressly reserved to object to the testimony of the witness at the time of trial as to incompetency, irrelevancy and immateriality, other than those with respect to the form of questions as propounded to the witness. * * * * * P R O C E E D I N G S THEREUPON, JUDY MAGNESS having been called for examination by counsel for the plaintiff, and having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION Questions by Mr. Walker: Q. State your name Mrs. Magness. Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box #4 Sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: ( 501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 - 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 4 A. Judy Magness. Q. I'm smiling Mrs. Magness because I recall a conversation you and I had involving Dr. Henry Williams, do you recall that? A. We had several, which one? Q. Well, there was one when you were real hopeful that things would work with him and he would remain here--- A. Is that the telephone call I made to you? Q. Yeah. A. I'm still hopeful of that Mr. Walker. Q. Were you aware that he's back in Kansas City according to legend as principal of a charter school? A. No, but I think he'd be good at that
he really cares about kids. Q. Well, I just mentioned that. I thought about it when we thought about his deposition. You don't have to--- A. And I think at the time--- Q. respond to that. A. that I said to you, you know, it would be wonderful--Q. You don"t have to put this on there. A. Why not. Q. Because it's not going to be helpful to Judge Wright. But I just--- A. That I always encouraged you to be a statesman and--Q. Oh, I'll give you an opportunity to say that--- A. Okay. Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box #4 Sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: ( 501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 5 Q. I mean on the record. I'll give you an opportunity to--FENDLEY: Let's just leave all of this on the record. WALKER: Well, that's fine
we"ll leave it on the record. Now let me get to the questions. Q. Mrs. Magness, do you believe in racial segregation? A. Absolutely not. Q. Are you a member of any organization dedicated and devoted to eliminating racial segregation in your private activities? A. Say that one more time. Q. Are you a dues paying member of any association which has the purpose of eliminating racial discrimination? A. I don't pay many dues to organizations I'm apart of. Q. Well, I guess the answer is no. A. I'm trying to think about that. Q. We can come back to it, I'll go on to something else because I want to be, I want to be faithful to what I said about trying to get out of here brief as possible. REPORTER: Speak up Mr. Walker. Q. What is your interpretation of the term eliminate achievement disparity between the races, just those words? Eliminate achievement disparity between the races, what, how do you construe that? A. I construe that to mean that by some assessment, pick any, you know there's several so you would have to decide that any Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box t4 sweet Horne, AR 72164-0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 - 25 CERTIFIED COPY 6 person taking that assessment regardless of their race would do as well as the next person. But that takes in to consideration all that has going in to the making each of those people. Q. I'm just asking now--- A. into each persons. Q. you"re a college graduate, right? A. Yes. Q. Masters degree? A. No. Q. What"s your degree in? A. Education. Q. I see. You were a teacher at one time? A. Years ago. Q. I see. Mrs. Magness I just asked you a question to tell me what the term meant, eliminate achievement disparity between the races. I didn't ask you how it comes about, what does that term mean, eliminate the achievement disparity between the races? A. Did you say achievement disparity the time before? Q. Yes, ma"am. Eliminate achievement disparity between the races, what does that mean? A. That any person could achieve what another person could. Q. Does not the word eliminate mean to end? A. Yes. Q. Does not it means ah, does not it contemplate affirmative Cobb Court Reporting P . o. Box t4 Sweet Home, AR 72164- 0004 Phone : ( 501) 490 - 0066 (501) 490 - 0926 - Fax 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 1 action? A. Well--- Q. I'm going to eliminate dirt in this room, that means that I'm going to come in here and get a broom or something and eliminate dirt in this room. Eliminate means to remove doesn't it? A. One definition. Q. Can you tell me any other definition or synonym that means something other than to remove? Any other synonym that relates to eliminating? A. Well, I mean you can get several
why? Q. Well, the point is I'm trying to find out here--A. If I understand English? Q. Yes, ma"am--- A. Uh-huh. Q. that's part of it. Now achievement disparity, what does that mean to you between the races? A. That there would be a difference in the way one group ah, reflected what they were able to do as opposed to another. Q. Now Mrs. Strickland--- A. No. Q. I mean, not Mrs. Strickland but Mrs. Magness--- A. That's okay, people get us mixed up all the time. Q. No, no, no, no I don't, I don"t
y'all are two different people. Do you perceive that there is an achievement disparity Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box t4 sweet Horne, AR 72164-0004 Phone, ( 501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY between the races or students in the Little Rock School District? A. I guess it will depend upon--Q. You can"t answer that--- A. what measurement you"re taking--- 8 Q. just a moment, can you answer that first of all yes or no
is there an achievement disparity? A. Ah, I mean you're going to have to go a little more in depth there. Q. All right. I'm going to tell you, I want you to answer your questions like you are --- A. Uh-huh. Q. but it will be much more of a pleasure for me to put you on the stand and have you answer like this. I'm trying to get though some direct answers. A. Great. Q. Do you understand that there--is there, is there an achievement disparity right now between the races in the Little Rock School District that is evident? A. On some recent test scores that we received, namely ACTAP--- Q. Go ahead. A. there was a difference in the scores between all of the races that we serve in the Little Rock School District. Q. My question is there an achievement disparity between black Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box J4 sweet Horne, AR 72164-0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 CERTlFl"ED COPY 9 students and nonblack students
that's really what I'm talking about. A. The test scores reflected a difference--Q. I see. A. in those groups, yes. Q. Has there ever during your dozen years on the board--A. No. Q. Is it thirteen? A. No. Q. How many, nine? A. Seven. Q. Seven. During your seven years on the board has there ever been a time when there was not an achievement disparity between the black and the white students? A. Not as reflected on test scores that I've seen. Q. I see. Now during that time before 1998 and your tenure on the board, did the board ever by a board resolution or motion determine as its purpose to eliminate the achievement disparity between the races? 20 A. There was never a formal vote--- 21 Q. All right. 22 A. or resolution because our intent--- 23 Q. No, no, no, no, you can't keep--- 24 _ A. was always to--- 25 Q. Mrs., Mrs--- Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box #4 Sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 - 25 CERTIFIED COPY 10 FENDLEY: She can answer. WALKER: She cannot--- A. our intent was always to--- WALKER: She can't state, just a moment, let me say this. She cannot state the intent of other people. She cannot talk about a collective intent. The only way that intent is manifested is by a vote
otherwise she's giving an opinion about somebody else's opinion or purpose. FENDLEY: Well, she can--- MAGNESS: When we voted to approve this--FENDLEY: she can give her opinion and you can make your objection to whether or not she's authorized to make that opinion or not. WALKER: See, I'm going to ask if there was a vote
I didn't ask why there wasn't a vote. Q. Was there a vote? A. Restate your question. Q. Was there ever a vote of the board to eliminate the achievement disparity between black and white students before 1998? A. In other words someone would have said I move--- Q. Yes. A. that we eliminate disparity between--- Q. Yes, ma' am. A. No. Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box #4 Sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 - 25 CERT\F\ED COPY 11 Q. I see. Now do you know what was in the minds of every board member throughout this period of time, these seven years? I'm serious since you say you know what they thought. Do you know what was in--- A. I did not say I know what they thought. Q. I see. A. and no, I do not know what they thought. Q. Well, you were fixing to say the reason that they didn't do something was because of what--you can't speak for anybody but yourself can you Mrs. Magness? A. That's correct. Q. All right. Now when you came onto the board what was the standard by which student achievement was assessed? A. At that time it was one of the national test and I am thinking that it was one of the SAT"s, it wasn"t IX but it was one of the ones prior to that. Q. But they have different SAT'S don't they? They have SAT IV, SAT VI--- A. Yeah, they change them. Q. Yes, but it was always a SAT test wasn"t it
SAT test? A. As far as I recall it was. Q. That's called a Standardized Achievement Test isn"t it? A. With the exception of, of course, students who take the AP classes have an opportunity--- Q. To take? Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box *4 Sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 - 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. to take the AP exams. Q. But let me ask you--- CERTIFIED COPY 12 A. and that would be referenced against other students across the nation that take those. Q. But my question is--what does SAT stand for, Mr--A. Standardize Achievement Test. FENDLEY: I think it's Stanford. MAGNESS: Stanford? It is Stanford, you"re right. Stanford Achievement Test
right, thank you. Q. Now have you all, have you all ever abandoned the Stanford Achievement Test? A. Ah, we scaled back on it. Q. When did you do so? A. About--! can't remember if it was two or three years ago because we were going to use other test that we thought would give us better information. Q. Who thought, the board, this collective board? A. Yes. Q. Did the board--- A. The board voted to do that
correct. Q. They voted to do that? A. Right. Q. Did they vote the scale back on the test, the Stanford test? A. They voted to do the Stanford test in grades 4, 8, and 10 I Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box i4 sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: ( 501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 - 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 13 believe. Q. That was enlarging it wasn't it, putting it to use in more grades wasn't it? A. No. Q. How many grades had they used it in before? A. What, it started three or third or fourth grade through eleven
we were giving it to all of them. Q. I see. Now those test always showed that there was an achievement gap didn't they between black and white students? A. As whole groups
yes. Q. I see. Does not, are you familiar with the court rulings in this case? A. Well, I have read most of them that I have received
I don"t know what are you referring to. Q. Doesn"t the model relate to African-American students as a group rather than as individuals? A. Yes. Q. And does not the term eliminating the achievement disparity between the races apply in your opinion, to eliminating the achievement disparity between black students or AfricanAmerican students as a race in comparison to white students or nonblack students as a race or group? A. And where are you seeing that phrasing? Q. I'm just saying, we"re talking about the class of students being African-American aren't we? Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box t4 Sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 14 A. Well, and you're stating, I mean is that wording in one of the documents? Q. No. We"re talking, if you want to have a disparity, you can fend with me if you wish, if you want to have a disparity judgment it got to be between one group and another doesn"t it? A. Yeah, but we serve more than two groups of students. Q. I understand. But you lump the students as either for our purposes--- A. Uh-huh. Q. as either African-American or black as one group, right? A. Uh-huh. Q. And all other students--FENDLEY: Yes. A. Yes, yes
I"m sorry. Q. All right. All the other students are put in that category aren't they? A. For some report
yes. Q. All right. Now do you believe that you all have committed to eliminate the achievement disparity between the races to any one at any time? A. You want to--- Q. Have you ever as a board made the commitment to eliminate achievement disparity between the races? A. In what ways are you wanting to know? Q. I'm just saying has there ever been that board commitment Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box t4 Sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: ( 501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 15 in a document? A. Yeah. Q. I see. Now isn"t it true also that you committee to in taking the state"s money, twenty million dollars, that you eliminate, that you agreed to bring the, to narrow the gap to a point where black students and white students were within ten points of each other? A. That was the old agreement. Q. Well, has the agreement with the state ever changed? Well, if you call the old agreement, has that agreement with the state ever changed? I mean I would like to see it if it has changed. Where is the state agreement. A. Well, quite frankly I don't remember the ah--do you have that, the last--- Q. The old agreement--- A. it was worked out with the state? FENDLEY: Not with me, no. MAGNESS: Okay, because I would need to be refreshed on that before I could answer anything on it. FENDLEY: I mean, you just tell him you don"t know. MAGNESS: Okay. WALKER: That"s fine. Q. You say the old agreement some how or another has changed and you"re no longer committed. Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box J4 Sweet Horne, AR 72164-0004 Phone: ( 501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 - 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED copy 16 A. Now, I didn"t say it has changed, I said the old agreement said that. Q. Well, what about are you familiar with the--is the old agreement still in effect? A. Which old, which one? Q. The one that you talked about, that old agreement that you said that was under the old agreement
is it still--- A. I don't know, I don't know. Q. Well, tell me then what's the basis of your statement that that was under the old agreement
so what"s if it's under the old agreement? Has that agreement been modified in your opinion? A. I do not know. Well, let me put it this way, I don't remember. I know we have been in discussions with the state and worked something out but particulars I do not know. Q. Do you know if the Joshua Intervenors were parties to that agreement? A. I don't know. Q. Do you agree or have your lawyers informed you that they represented to the court that the revised plan on January 16, 1998 incorporated the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals seven elements which it considered to be crucial and with respect to which no retreat would be approved? A. Yes. Q. And one of them was the effort to eliminate achievement Cobb Court Reporting P . o. Box i4 Sweet Home , AR 72164- 0004 Phone : (501) 490 - 0066 (501) 490 - 0926 - Fax - - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 disparity between the races? A. Yes. CERTIFIED COPY 17 Q. Now do you agree that the only legitimate means to eliminate the racial disparity in achievement is by improving African-American achievement? A. I don't think that's the only one. Q. Have you represented to the court that that was the only legitimate one? FENDLEY: You personally? WALKER: I mean the board. A. Not me personally. Q. I mean the board. Has not the board, you were president of the board in 1998 weren't you? A. Right. Q. You read this memorandum to the district court didn't you? A. That's correct. Q. And that"s what it says here
isn't that your commitment? A. That's right. Q. Now are you backing away from that commitment now? A. Absolutely not. Q. I see. Now are you saying that this is not the only one? Why would you tell the court that this is only legitimate means if it's not the only one? 24 . A. No, let"s back up. 25 Q. Just a minute. Cobb Court Reporting p, o. Box f4 sweet Horne, AR 72164-0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 - 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 18 A. Your question was--- Q. Just a minute, let me go back. I said do you agree that the only legitimate means to eliminate the racial disparity in achievement is by improving African-American achievement. I asked you that question and you said no, not the only one. A. It, it's not the only legitimate way. As Mr. Berkley stated--- Q. Well, why would you say that--- A. it's the only acceptable way because the other way could be that we would try to drag down other kids scores and that, and you could narrow it. Q. You don't have to drag down anybody's, you don't have to drag down any--- A. I hope not because we"re not going to do that. Q. Just a moment, just a moment. You don't have to drag down anybody's scores if you focus on improving African-American achievement do you? A. That's correct. Q. So as you teach these white kids and you focus--A. As we teach all kids. Q. no, as you teach these white kids who are already up, you can focus on the deficiencies of the black kids can you not? A. Yes. Q. Specifically, that doesn't bring the white kids down does it Mrs. Magness? Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box #4 Sweet Horne, AR 72164-0004 Phone: ( 501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 19 A. No. You asked me if that was the only legitimate what to do it and my answer was no, that's not the only legitimate way but that"s the only acceptable way to do it. Q. Well, we're not talking about in this lawsuit bringing anybody"s achievement down are we? A. I hope not Mr. Walker. Q. Well now .if you say that it's the only legitimate way if by improving African-American achievement, that means then you have to focus on African-American achievement doesn"t it? A. Yes. Q. Which means that you, by focusing upon African-American achievement, means that you have to focus away from all students to African-American students doesn't it? A. No. Q. Doesn't it mean that if you have a disparity you have been focusing upon all children? A. Not necessarily. Q. All right. Why is the disparity there you're going to say, tell me you"re going to say it's because of socioeconomics? A. I'm going to say there are lot of reasons for disparity. Q. What are they, what are they in your professional opinion? A. From everything I've read and heard there are several reasons we have disparity. One could be that the test are bias. Another is socioeconomic. Another is parent involvement. Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box *4 Sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 20 Q. What else? A. Well, of course, the experiences that the child has and the readiness to learn when they get to school. Q. Well, you knew all of these things when you all entered into the settlement agreement in '89--- A. That's right--well, I don't know about that. Q. and you knew of all of those things when you entered into it in 1998. A. That's correct. FENDLAND: You, she knew? WALKER: Meaning the board. Q. You knew those things. A. Uh-huh, yes. Q. What you're saying now is that's not something you just learned last week? A. No. Q. All right. So if you knew those things and you still make the commitment to eliminate the achievement disparity it is based isn't it that there is no inherent racial inferiority of black people? FENDLEY: Let me object to the question and you say committed to eliminate the achievement disparity. WALKER: You may. Q. First of all you do accept the notion that there is no such thing as white superiority and black inferiority, isn't that Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box #4 Sweet Horne, AR 72164-0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 21 correct? A. That is correct. Q. All right. So once you accept the premise that all people are equal then you have to accept the premise that all students can learn don"t you? A. Absolutely. Q. All right. And then that means that you make them, I mean you put them in that best posture so they can learn equally well don't you? A. Yes. Q. That's why you adopted English as a second language, for instance, for the Hispanic children? A. Right. Q. And that's recognition of the fact that they had a deficiency with respect to being able to understand English--A. Uh-huh. Q. to the same extent. So that means if you focus on the Hispanics you can focus upon black people doesn't it? A. Right. Q. Now where are the focus programs that have been developed in accordance with 2.7--- A. Okay. Q. what are the focus programs? A. Some of them would include the pre-K III initiatives in the elementary schools--- cobb Court Reporting P . o . Box f4 Sweet Horne , AR 72164-0004 Phone : ( 501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 - 25 CERTIFIED COPY Q. Right. A. and the fact that we have increased our four-year-old programs and those have always been there for students whose background need enrichment. Q. Pre-K is one, what are the other programs? A. Okay, the--- FENDLAND: Pre-Kand Early, the Early one--WALKER: Early Childhood, what else. A. Ear--yeah, Early Childhood. Okay, the fourth--- 22 Q. Let me, let me, let me offer you a little bit better help. I'll let Mr. Fendley answer this question for you for the record and I'll adopt, let you adopt his answer since he"s been on the Compliance Committee. If you want to answer for her Mr- FENDLEY: I'm not, you"re not taking my deposition. WALKER: But I don"t want you but I mean since you want to suggest some answers t o her. FENDLEY: I, you, she had already sai d the fouryear- old program and you--- MAGNESS: She was just, he was just repeating it. WALKER: He didn't say, she didn"t say Early Childhood. Q. But I'm saying that's fine, if he wants to state them Cobb Court Reporting P . o. Box 14 Sweet Home , AR 72164- 0004 Phone : (501) 490 - 0066 (501) 490 - 0926 - Fax 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 23 whatever it is I'm going to tell you they don't exist. Pre-K, that one what else? A. Early Childhood. Q. Early Childhood, thank you. A. ELLA. Q. ELLA. A. Smart Step, Smart Start. In some of our schools we"re using Success for All which is a proven model to particularly help those students who have not come in with the skills that they need. Q. What else? A. Ah, at Washington we have ah, what is that reading programs, it's been proven very effective in one of the ah, schools in the ah, delta down in southeast. Oh, it's a reading program, Direct Instruction and it has also met with a lot of national recognition. Q. What else? A. We have changed our math and science curriculums because we could tell from the scores that we were receiving that our students were not improving--- Q. What else? A. and ah, all the programs that we have put in have been ah, nationally recognized. Q. Well, name them
I'm not asking you to explain them. A. Okay. Reading, writing workshop in our middle schools ah, Cobb Court Reporting P . o. Box t4 Sweet Horne, AR 72164- 0004 Phone: (501) 490 - 0066 (501) 490 - 0926 - Fax 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 - 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY accelerated learning center for high school kids that needed more one-on-one and ah, another alternative--- Q. Well, just tell me the programs without explaining them. A. I might like to explain them. Q. I don't want you--- A. You may not know about them. Q. but I don't want you to explain them now but, you know, just tell me what they are. 24 A. Okay, let me see. Ah, increased use of computers which ah, can offer if used properly enhance instruction and achievement. Q. All right. A. We are improving our fine arts program with a new fine arts director--- Q. All right. A. based on research recently. And we went to the middle school concept, that's not exactly a program, that's more of a framework in which to put the programs. Q. All right, what else? A. But the framework also--Q. I'm not asking--- A. made it easier--- Q. I'm not asking for you to explain them--A. I am to explain to you that--- Q. No, no, I want you to answer my question. FENDLEY: But she"s--Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box t4 Sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: ( 501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY WALKER: No, no, no, no, she can't explain. FENDLEY: she's not wasting time. WALKER: No, no, no, no, no. I'm not, only asking her to identify the programs, I'm not asking her to explain them. 25 FENDLEY: Well, she"s identifying some of them in my interpretation by explaining what they are as opposed to giving a name. WALKER: All right. If you don"t mind her staying that's fine. MAGNESS: I have all afternoon. WALKER: Well good, thank you. Thank you, you know I can stay all night. A. Ah, the middle school structure does help our kids because a group of kids are taught by a group of teachers which hopefully then allows teachers to really be on top of the achievement of the students and give them any extra help they need, be sure they don't fall through the cracks, et cetera. I'll stop there. Q. No, I want the other programs, I want you to tell me all of the programs that you all have adopted. A. Those are the ones that I can think of off the top of my head. Well, we do have some other good ones of course like East Labs, Cisco, university School--- Q. Cisco, okay go ahead
University School, what else? Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box *4 Sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. E-Slabs. Q. Okay. CERTIFIED COPY 26 A. And then we have our good program an McClellan the business education program that is, has been recognized and won lots of awards. Q. Has it won awards in Little Rock or won--A. Yes, yes. Q. Okay, when was that? A. Ah, either last year or the year before and then two years before that. Q. All right. All right, keep going. A. Well, let me see. At Central we have International Studies, Magnet. Q. All right, what else? A. umm, that's enough. Q. That"s enough I'll as--- A. That"s just ah, that"s just a cross section. Q. Well, that's fine. I have listened and you more so than any of the other board members have identified these programs. But 2.71 talks about program evaluation. A. That's correct. Q. Have these programs been evaluated that you have just mentioned? A. Ah, some of them have--- Q. Well, the ones that are listed on here, I don"t see a Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box #4 Sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 - 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY single one that you listed on there, on here being listed on page 148 as having been evaluated. A. Okay. Q. Look, look, now make sure, look at--- A. 2.7. whatever does not say that it has to be a yearly written, formal, evaluation does it? 27 Q. Well now I don't know how you interpret this but I'm saying at least none of the programs that you have mentioned appear to have been listed under what you all reported to the court had been done as of March 15. Now I stand to be corrected, you say here program evaluation and you understand you all were committed to make program evaluation? A. Right, uh-huh. Q. All right. And then you say that in addition to--A. Well, your middle school was evaluated--- Q. Well, just a moment. A. and science was evaluated, science and math was evaluated. Q. Well now look, look. A. Uh-huh. Q. Math--show me if you can see middle school on there as something you reported to the court as having been evaluated? A. Ah, yes, it's up in one of the top paragraphs on here I think. Q. What does it say? A. Ah, let me let your read it. It's right in here. Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box *4 sweet Horne, AR 72164-0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 28 FENDLEY: Just for the record she's referring to the paragraphs under the heading Program Evaluation which discusses the board research agenda. Q. It says, P-R-E, is this what you"re referring to? P-R-E prepared the initial components of the evaluations for pre-K III literacy, the National Science Foundation Project components, and the implementation of middle schools in August of 2000, that's the initial components. Now are you saying that you all have seen those final evaluations? A. We saw a draft--- Q. That's yes or no. Have you seen a final evaluation--A. Not the final. FENDLEY: She can answer any way she wants to. WALKER: My question is my question. FENDLEY: She doesn't have to answer yes or no. Q. Have you seen a final evaluation? I don't mean to fend with you, have you seen a final evaluation? A. No. Q. All right. And isn't it true that the board did not accept the evaluations that were presented? A. We saw the draft evaluations that were presented and we did not think that they were thorough enough--- Q. Mrs. Magness--- A. and we had questions about them so rather than accept flawed what we considered to be not as good as we would like Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box J4 Sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 - 25 CERTIFIED COPY 29 evaluations, no we did not formally accept those. Q. All right now, I want you to have an understanding. If I want you opinion about how other people thought, I'll ask it. If I want an opinion about what the board did, I'll ask that. I object to anything where you speculate about the motivation of other people. Now this situation--- A. Well, obviously if we didn't formally accept them, we did not think they were what we wanted. Q. That's right. Now have you ever received what you wanted with respect to the evaluations that were presented? A. Which evaluations? Q. The ones that you referred to that you did not accept? A. We have not accepted a final evaluation of those programs. Q. I see. But yet you told the court that you had finally evaluated those programs didn't you? FENDLEY: Object as to form, that's not what we told the court. Q. Didn't you tell us that the evaluations had been completed? A. I don't know. Q. That's fine. Now I notice here you have Success For All as a program with some great review, is that right? A. It supposedly is and yes, it is working in some of our schools. Q. Okay. Were you aware that Dr. Lesley had eliminated Success For All in a number of schools? Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box #4 sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 - 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY FENDLEY: Object as to form--Q. Were you aware of that? FENDLEY: it assumes facts not in evidence. WALKER: Well, it may not be in evidence but we're not in court. Q. Were you aware that she has eliminated Success For All? A. I was aware--- FENDLEY: Object as to the form of the questions. Q. Well, do you know whether she has, I'll put it that way. Do you know whether she's eliminated Success For All because 30 her notion was--first of all do you know if she's eliminated it before this year? A. Ah, I know that Success For All--- Q. Do you know is my question, do you know if she had eliminated the Success For All programs in a number of schools? FENDLEY: Let the witness answer. WALKER: That's what I'm asking, do you know if she did that? A. I know that Success For All was taken out of some schools because it was not effective. Q. All right. Now have you seen any written evaluation from anybody including Dr. Lesley to the effect that Success For All was not effective in a particular school, a written eval--- A. Yes. Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box f4 Sweet Home , AR 72164- 0004 Phone : ( 501) 490 - 0066 (501) 490 - 0926 - Fax 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY Q. Where are those evaluations now and when--A. Well, it's not--- Q. when can I see them? 31 A. it is the result of tests that were given the students and their academic achievement. Q. Let me ask you my question. You understand Mrs. Magness, you told me you were a college graduate too, so nobody here can say that they don"t understand questions. A written evaluation is an evaluation that I can put finger on and see. Is there a written evaluation which determined from the PRE Department that determine that Success For All was not a working program? A. Well, I don"t know what you're looking for in a written evaluation Mr. Walker what, what components do you want to be there? What do you want it to look like? Q. Mrs. Magness, first of all have you seem such a written evaluation, that's all
i f so I'd like to see it. But have you seen such an evaluation? A. I told you that I have seen the test results--- Q. I'm not asking about the test results, I'm talking wri--A. That's all I've seen on them. Q. Now you understand an evaluation is more than test results don't you? A. So eliminating--Q. No, no, no--- A. the disparity gap--- cobb Court Reporting P . o . Box t4 Sweet Horne , AR 72164-0004 Phone : (501) 490 - 0066 (501) 490 - 0926 - Fax 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 32 Q. no, no, no, now lis--- A. would be more than just test scores? Q. listen. Do you understand that you as a board set up and approved an evaluation model and format? A. umm, yes. Q. I see. Do you expect evaluations to be made pursuant to that model and format? A. Yes. Q. Have you ever seen an evaluation of Success For All pursuant to that format? A. No. Q. I see. A. But that has never been one of the ones on our agenda specifically. Q. Well, you listed--- A. Now the evaluation will be of like what was the achievement of students in reading K-3. Q. Well, what were--- A. that program will be involved in trying to raise those achievement levels. Q. Well can you tell me what is on the agenda for complying with 2.71 by board motion, by board motion--- A. Uh-huh. Q. can you tell me which programs are there? A. The ones that were evaluated last year--cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box t4 Sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: ( 501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 , 25 CERTIFIED COPY Q. National Science, Early Literacy, and Middle School? A. And English as a second language and quite frankly I've forgotten what we put down for this year. Q. Well, I don"t see National Science being evaluated here. FENDLEY: You're not looking. 33 WALKER: I see that you said--you indicated that it was evaluated sufficiently to make a judgment so I determined that wasn"t an evaluation
so am I wrong about that? A. It was an evaluation. Q. All right, that's fine. A. It was that we had other questions and it was to be ah, looked at again, our questions answered and brought back. Q. So that the evaluation was incomplete? A. Right. Q. So you"re saying that you're going to rest on an incomplete evaluation as an evaluation in compliance with 2.71? A. I'm going to say that for me I will accept that for this last year but because it is not what I think it should be, I will not accept it further. Q. Now show me anywhere on here where you have applied, where you have evaluated the Early Literacy program? A. Ah, right here. Q. You prepared the initial components of evaluation for pre-k through literacy. That means that you set an agenda doesn"t it? It doesn"t mean that you have made an evaluation does it Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box #4 sweet Home, AR 72164- 0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY Mrs. ah--- A. I have seen an evaluation of that. Q. Well, what is it called and who has it? FENDLAND: You've got it. SPRINGER: No we don't. 34 WALKER: Well, that's fine. Is that what you've referred to as the draft Mrs. Magness? A. Ah, the one I saw was a draft, yes. SPRINGER: Thank you. Q. I see. Well, you don"t call a draft an evaluation do you? A. I call it a draft evaluation Mr. Walker, what would you want me to call it
a draft funny word sheet? Q. Well, have you seen any final evaluation of any of the programs contemplated under 2.7 or 71, a final evaluation of any--- A. Not, not a final evaluation of specific programs. Have I seen the result of the achievement increased and achievement results of those
yes. Q. Have you been informed by Dr. Lesley that the evaluation by Dr. Nunnery that is referred to here on page 148 was an incompetent evaluation? A. Nope. Q. Did you consider his evaluation to be competent? A. I haven't seen it. Q. Have you any--- cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box #4 Sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY A. Unless his, unless he, I mean, he was, I think he was involved in the draft versions that we saw. Q. I see. Are you a friend of Dr. Lesley's? A. Yes. Q. I see. Do you spend a lot of time with her? A. No. Q. Do you spend a lot of time in receiving her e-mails? A. No. Q. Do you receive any e-mails from her? A. I"ve received one or two. Q. Do you send her e-mails? A. I've responded to one. Q. I see. WALKER: Mr. Fendley can we have those? MAGNESS: You should have it. WALKER: Not from Mrs. Magness. 35 FENDLEY: If they"re still available
we'll see. MAGNESS: I doubt if they are, I delete mine regularly. WALKER: Well, we know there is a deletion program, are you familiar with the administrative regulation on deletion of e-mails? A. Huh-uh. FENDLEY: No. Q. Did you know that one had been promulgated by the Cobb Court Reporting P, 0, Box t4 Sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 - 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 36 superintendent saying that to keep these jokers for two weeks and then they're to be eliminated? FENDLEY: That's a paraphrase. WALKER: Fifteen days and they"re supposed to be moved off. A. I think that's a good practice. Isn't that what they do in business? Q. No, ma'am. Are you familiar with the fact that the court has said that when you eliminate these--are you familiar with the court saying that if you have eliminated them after the request has been made--- A. Uh-huh. Q. She will construe ah, she will, she will determine an adverse inference upon that fact? Now do you know what an adverse inference is? A. No. Q. An adverse inference I would take would be--the inference is that the information deleted would be helpful to the person seeking it. A. Uh. Oh, if I've got them I mean I, you know--Q. You've got them, that's fine. A. No, I said if I have them you're more than welcome to'em. Q. All right. Now I understand that you and Mr. ah, Dr. Darty have a material disagreement over the accomplishments of the school district with respect to remediation, is that fair to Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box #4 Sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 37 say? A. I don"t know. Q. Did you not take issue with his statement at the school board meeting last week or week before last? A. Urnrn, I took--not, no. Q. You did not, that's fine. A. No. Q. Do you believe that the achievement gap that exist in the Little Rock School District between black and white students can be eliminated? A. I believe that--- Q. That's a yes or no
I don't want an explanation now. FENDLEY: Let me, I'll object then because you didn"t put any sort of time frame on there. Q. I just asked you if you believe that it can be eliminated
that's yes or no. FENDLEY: Ever? WALKER: Mr., please don"t try to influence my answer. Q. Do you believe it can be eliminated? A. Well, I'll ask, in what time frame? Q. See you suggested--- A. So a little more. Q. No, no. Do you believe that the achievement gap can be eliminated by the Little Rock School District? Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box t4 sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 38 A. Yes. Q. I see. Now I'll ask you the question, over what time frame will it take at the minimum? A. I don"t know. Q. Will it take 12 years? A. I"m not going to put a time on it. Q. I see. But you do acknowledge that there has to be if that as a goal before you can begin to address the subject, elimination? A. I am not as concerned about looking at that--Q. Mrs. Magness listen to the question--- A. if I am seeing that--- Q. I"m not asking about your concerns--A. every--- Q. I'm only concerned about you--A. student does--- FENDLEY: Let her--WALKER: No--- A. to the best--- FENDLEY: finish her answer. WALKER: I'm only concerned that you answer my question. A. that that student can do. WALKER: I'm only--- REPORTER: One at a time, please. Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box t4 sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 39 Q. I'm only concerned about your answer to my question. This is not a lawsuit about getting every student to do what, the best he can
you understand that don't you? A. No. Q. Is it your understanding that this lawsuit is about getting every student to be able to do the best he can
is that your understanding? A. That the lawsuit is about every student achieving high academic--- Q. So that's your belief? You understand in the world Mrs. Magness that not every student can be a high achiever academically
you understand that don't you? White and black students and not everyone can be a high achiever? A. No, but they can do--I want them to be able to--Q. Mrs., Mrs--- A. achieve the most they can. Q. But there is not way for determining what a person's limits are is there? There"s no way for you to determine that. A. No. Q. So the point here is and you understand that the law requires that students who have been the victim of discrimination be the ones who are the target of remediation. They're the ones who are owed the remedy
you know that don't you? A. Say that again. Cobb Court Reporting P, o. Box #4 sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone, ( 501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 - 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY Q. Upon the finding of discrimination---A. Uh-huh. 40 Q. and there is a class defined, you then have what's called victims of discrimination. And the remedy has to apply to the victims, you understand that do you not? A. Yes. Q. I see. Now the remedy has to be specifically applied to the interest of black children here, do you understand that? A. Uh-huh. Q. And not white children. FENDLEY: You need to say yes or no. MAGNESS: Right, okay. FENDLEY: I mean that"s for the record, she can"t get uh-huh or huh-uh. MAGNESS: Wait, I"m sorry. A. Say that last one again. Q. The remedy goes to black children not to white children. A. Right. Q. All right. Now are there any programs that you know of including middle school, early literacy and National Science that goes specifically to remediating the academic achievement disparities that black students suffer? A. Yes, all those. Q. What is the intended incremental remediation of black student deficiency on an annual basis expected by this school Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box #4 sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 - 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 . 25 CERTIFIED COPY 41 district? A. Explain that a little more. FENDLEY: Do you need to turn your tape over. Q. we understand that students, Mrs. Magness we understand if you have students in 30 percentile and white in the 60 that the goal is not to move the whites up but it's to move the blacks up
do you accept that premise? REPORTER: One moment. You may continue. Do you accept that premise, that was his last words. A. Ah, say it again one more time. Q. Do you accept that where the white students are already beyond the national norm, the 60 percentile or above in general and the blacks are way below say in the 30 percent, that the goal is to move the blacks, the black students, the AfricanAmerican students closer to the white students? A. I accept that as a goal. Q. Fine. And isn't it true that your plans and programs have to be focus upon doing that? A. Yes. Q. All right. And it's not to be trying to get these white students as far as they can go? A. I think we can do both. Q. Now the focus of the law, the requirement of the lawsuit is to remediate the underachievement of blacks students isn't it? A. It is to increase--- cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box *4 sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: ( 501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 42 Q. Can you say yes or no to that? A. No. Q. You can't, that's fine. I want you to say no because you don't believe it
I understand where you're--- FENDLEY: Well, she didn't say she didn't believe that. WALKER: Well, your belief is--A. I did not say I didn't believe that. Q. Your belief has been stated many times Mrs. Magness is we're here committed to teach all children and get them as far as they can go
that's your position. A. That's right. Q. All right. And that means doesn't it Mrs. Magness that it's not upon dealing with the lowest achievement group? A. Yes, it is dealing with the lowest achievement group. Q. All right. You saw your report which said what has happened in the district is this: There are some modest black gains and there are some gains for whites but nonetheless the gap is not changing yet. But what is happening is that the poorest white students are suffering while black students are gaining
you did not see that report? A. No. Q. All right. The gains have come, for white kids have at the expense of poor white kids, have you seen that? A. No. Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box #4 Sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY Q. You understand that when black students don"t learn poor white kids don"t learn either? 43 A. When any student does not learn any group of students in a classroom do not learn then I would say most of them are not in that classroom. Q. The evidence is that white students continue to learn and improve, your own record shows--- A. So are you saying that our black kids are not smart enough to do that? Q. The record shows here that your focus is upon improving the education of all students, so your teachers work with those students they're most comfortable with. A. I disagree. FENDLEY: Object as to form. Q. All right, you may disagree. All right, well then how can you--when you say Mrs. Magness that it"s easier to get a group of students in a lower percentile, say 20 to 30 percentile up 15 or 20 points then it would be to get a student in the 60th or 70th percentile up 10 or 15 points? A. I would say it would depend on the age of the student and the grade level. Q. Mrs. Magness just it's a matter of reasoning the person--A. Uh-huh. Q. whose got the furthest to go has the possibility of making the greatest gain
isn't that correct? Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box H sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: ( 501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 - 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 44 A. Has the possibility, yes. Q. I see. But in this district over the years the only gains on the SAT anyway are reflected for white students. A. I disagree. Q. Can you tell me any time in the last four years when that was not reflected? A. No, I cannot. Q. So in the last four years you acknowledge that those--- A. No, I don't know. Q. Have you looked at the SAT results? A. Yes, but I have not--I don't remember comparing them. Q. Have you heard Dr. Lesley say that the achievement disparity in lower grades, I think second or third grade pre-k through 3 has been eliminated? A. No, not eliminated. Q. Have you heard her say that it's to the point where it statistically inconsequential? A. No--- Q. I see. A. I don't remember her saying that. Q. I see. A. I know that we, that our programs that we have put in there have improved the achievement level of all the students. Q. Mrs. Magness can you explain why the predominantly black schools do not have lower class sizes then the mixed schools? Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box #4 sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: ( 501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY A. I don't know whether they do or not. Q. You haven't seen your own report? A. I hav--I don't remember reading the report that said the size of the classrooms. Q. Do you recall previously testifying that it was contemplated that there would be smaller classes for those children who were in the most disadvantaged circumstances? A. I"ve never testified before. Q. You've never given a deposition before? A. No. FENDLEY: In this case? MAGNESS: Not in this case. Q. Well, maybe it's at the school board meeting. Have you ever taken that position publicly? A. Okay, say it again. 45 Q. That the children in the most disadvantaged circumstances needed to have the lower pupil/teacher ratios? A. I don"t remember saying that. Q. Do you believe that? A. I believe--well, if I had all the money in the world and could design the school, I would make all pre-K through second at least 1 to 15. Q. Mrs. Magness if you have a group of--you understand when children come to school they come there as a reflection of their environment? Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box t4 sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: ( 501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 - 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY A. [Witness nodding head up and down.] Q. Is that right? REPORTER: Answer verbally. A. Oh--- Q. You said oh, and she was nodding yes. A. Yes, yes
I was thinking on that. 46 Q. Now you understand that the children from Mr. Rose"s and Mrs. Strickland's area who come to school score lower, white children from their area score lower than the children who come from your area? A. I wouldn"t agree to that. Q. Would you not agree that the children whom they represent who are white are generally as a group of lower socioeconomic status compared to your children, the kids in yours? A. No. Q. Are you familiar with the census tracks which show the relative socioeconomic status of students? A. No, I have not
I don't remember seeing that. Q. Do you believe that the children in southwest Little Rock, the white students in southwest Little Rock have the same socioeconomic status as the ones in your census track? A. Some of them. Q. Well now we know that there are some blacks who do and there are some whites--- A. Uh-huh. Cobb Court Reporting P . o. Box t4 Sweet Home , AR 72164- 0004 Phone : ( 501) 490 - 0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 47 Q. but we"re talking about groupings. would you think--- A. So now you"re talking about all of southwest Little Rock? Q. No, no, I"m just saying the census tracks there. Would you not agree Mrs. Magness that if you were dealing with only white students and you didn't have a black student around and you had poor kids who happened to be white irrespective of where they lived but they lived in groups and you had schools for them and you had middle class to rich kids and you had schools for them, wouldn"t you feel that those students from the lower group would have lower test scores on standardize test when they entered school than the ones in the well-to-do group? A. When they entered school? Q. Yes, ma' am. A. Yes. Q. And would not those test score disparities remain throughout absent int ervention by the school district? A. I don"t know that. Q. All right. But at least if you recognize it the goal is to get these students up to the same level as it is the other students isn"t it? A. Uh-huh. Q. All right. Which means then the teachers over here with these students have more work to do in order to move them ahead at a comparable, so they can be at a comparable level than the students over here? Cobb Court Reporting P . O. Box i4 sweet Home , AR 72164- 0004 Phone : ( 501) 490 - 0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY A. I don't know that. Q. Is not that reasonable Mrs. Magness? A. I don't know. Q. So then why do we talk about socioeconomic status if socioeconomic status doesn't mean anything? One of your arguments to me have been this is all attributed to socioeconomic standards. A. No, I did not say that. Q. Did you not indicate at the board meeting that the differences in achievement were due to socioeconomic status? A. No. Q. Did you hear Dr. Lesley say that? A. No. Q. Did she not say anything even comparable to that? A. Socioeconomic status was discussed. 48 Q. All right, that's fine. Doesn't it stand to reason if you got a group of kids over here who can't really read and don't have worldly experiences and don't have two-parent families and support systems that the teachers are going to have to work more with them than a group of differently situated students over here? A. I don't know. Q. Can you honestly say you don't know Mrs. Magness? A. I can honestly say that. Q. I see. Did you agree years ago to double funding? Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box t4 Sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY A. No, I was not in on that decision. Q. Do you support double funding now? A. Umm, I'm supporting it because I have agreed to it with this plan. Q. But do you support it conceptually? 49 A. Conceptually I support putting the money and the resources where they're needed the most. Q. Well, go back to my hypothetical. A. Okay. Q. The students over here start out lower and they're all white [indicating with right hand]. A. Okay. If, well, it doesn't matter to me--- Q. The students over here [indicating with left hand]--A. what color these kids are--- Q. so my point is--- A. or what their background is--Q. but I'm saying--- A. what I want Mr. Walker--- Q. just a moment, listen to my question
let me finish. My question is a nonracial hypothetical
so race isn't an issue now. You got poor kids over here [indicating with right hand] who are white and you"ve got rich kids over here [indicating with left hand] and the white kids are behind over here [motioning with right hand] and these are at National norms or about [indicating with left hand]. Where did put in my Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box *4 Sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 - 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 50 hypothetical--- FENDLAND: Just for the record Mr. Walker, you"re not going to be able to see which hand you're point to. WALKER: Well now, one hand, other hand. Q. Now do you devote more resources to the underachievers or to the high achievers? A. You devote the resources wherever they're needed. If the underachievers need the resources because the way that their school is structured and the way their teachers are teaching, need more resources then yes, that's where they go. Q. Listen to my question. A. You also have to be sure that you have the necessary resources that will meet the needs of these kids. Q. But now in the hypothetical you would acknowledge that the need is greatest to bring these kids up over there [indicating with right hand]? A. The need is the greatest there. Q. So that means you should put more resources--- FENDLEY: For the poor kids is what you"re--A. For the poor kids. Q. Yes. So you should put more resources in the area where the poor children are, isn't that correct? A. Again Mr. Walker it depends--- Q. Under your hypothetical. A. it depends on how those, how that is going to be addressed, Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box #4 sweet Horne, AR 72164-0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 51 what is going to be done to bring those kids up, to raise their achievement levels. Q. Well, the need--- A. And if it requires more money and more resources, yes. Q. Well, do you not feel that it's going to necessarily require more resources when the children are poorer? A. It may. Q. All right. Now let's just talk about reality for a moment. Now I"ve spoken to Mrs. Strickland about this and I don't know whether she's backing away from it but you look at McClellan and, McClellan especially and Mabelvale and Cloverdale and you compare those facilities with Central or Parkview, you acknowledge that McClellan is not the equal physically don't you of Parkview and Central? A. In what way? Q. The physical facilities. Even the appearance of the thing, the interior of the building, I mean you acknowledge that don't you? A. Well no. Q. That's fine. A. I would say McClellan and, you know, probably doesn't look any worse than Central. Now Parkview is newer so, you know, it looks better. Q. I see. Now would you not acknowledge that in general the schools of the southwest are not equal to the schools in the Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box #4 Sweet Horne, AR 72164-0004 Phone: ( 501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 - 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 52 west? A. No. Q. I see. would you not acknowledge that the teacher turnover in the schools in the southwest is greater than it is in the schools in the west? A. I don"t know that. Q. Do you not acknowledge that the educational need for educational achievement is different in the southwest than it is in the west? A. In what ways? Q. Well, they, you have more underachieving students as determined by standardize test in the southwest than you do in the west. A. Now when you"re saying west what, what are you--- Q. I'm saying Pulaski Heights, that northwest, Pulaski Heights, Forest Heights, Parkview, those schools as over against Coverdale and Mabelvale. A. And the question was? Q. You know, just the achievement level of students? A. I'm trying to remember. Now Parkview I think we should take out since it is a magnets but--- Q. Let"s, just assume, just assume for my instance, you can deal with assumption
let's assume that that's for real. If you're trying to get all students to more or less the same achievement level, you put the resources in the area do you not Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box t4 Sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 - 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY where the deficiencies are evident don't you? A. I would think so
yes. 53 Q. That means then that you should have instead of equal resources in all schools, you should have greater resources in some schools than others doesn't it? A. And as I recall--- Q. Doesn't that mean that, yes or no? A. this says equitable. Q. Well, we're talking about resources here. Now if we know the schools in the southwest are deficient in terms of what they can do, in terms of money, you don't try to have an equal thing across the board do you? A. I don't know that I would agree with the deficient. Q. I see, I see. I don't need to have any further--I think that ah, I just have one or two more questions
just a moment. [A recess was taken at 2:08 p.m., proceedings resumed at 2:09 p.m., to-wit:] REPORTER: We are on the record, sir and you may continue. DIRECT EXAMINATION CON'T Questions by Mr. Walker Con't: Q. Did the board ever publicly discuss the issue before Dr. Carnine began approaching the State Department of Education about loan forgiveness or the subject of loan forgiveness? A. Okay, say the first of that again. Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box t4 Sweet Horne, AR 72164-0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 54 Q. Did the board--let me change that question. Did the board ever authorize Dr. Corinine to approach the State Department of Education about loan forgiveness of the 20 million dollar loan
did they do that by a motion? A. I don't remember. Q. Did you, did the board ever make an evaluation of whether it had remediated any portion of the achievement disparity that it committed to the State of Arkansas that it would eliminate? A. You"re going to have to go further on that. FENDLEY: Object to the form of the question. Q. Was any elimination in the disparity gap known to the board as of January 2001 as evidence by a writing the board had before it? A. Umm, as in a formal document? Q. Yes, ma'am. A. No. Q. All right. Did Dr. Corinine in a public meeting ever inform you that he was meeting with me with respect to loan forgiveness during the meetings that he was having with the State Department of Education on that subject? A. Not that I remember. Q. Did you feel that you all were committed to the agreement with the state to remediate achievement disparities between black and white students to the extent of 10 percent? A. Say that again? Cobb Court Reporting P . o . Box t4 Sweet Home , AR 72164- 0004 Phone : (501) 490 - 0066 (501) 490 - 0926 - Fax 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 55 Q. Did you feel that the board was committed to fulfill its agreement with the state to remediate achievement disparities as provided--- A. So now I can tell you if I feel the board was and read their minds? Q. No, I"m asking did the board ever have, let's read the, I'm not asking you--what's the question? FENDLEY: It's exactly--- WALKER: Let's take the question. Q. Did the board ever commit to the state that it would remediate achievement disparity, I'm going to do it in three steps, did it ever do that? A. Ah, that was part of the agreement--Q. That's right. A. in '89. Q. All right now what steps did the board take to comply with that
to do that what steps did it take to comply with that? FENDLEY: Wel l, let me just object as to form because that assumes--- MAGNESS: Right. FENDLEY: ah, since a standard was never decided under that test, we could have met that standard in 1989. Q. My question now--- FENDLEY: So there wouldn"t be any ah, issue of remedying anything. Cobb Court Reporting P . o. Box i4 Sweet Horne , AR 72164- 0004 Phone : (501) 490 - 0066 (50 1 ) 490 - 0926 - Fax - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 - 25 CERTIFIED COPY 56 WALKER: Well, that's an argument for me counsel that he has not been successful on and the judge told him that the other day when you weren"t in court. FENDLEY: Well, I'll object to that, that's not true. WALKER: She told you, he told him in no uncertain terms when you weren't in court that she wasn"t buying that you all did not have a duty to eliminate or remediate achievement disparities and he can get the transcript and see it. Q. You haven't been told that have you? A. John, we're all trying to eliminate and remediate the disparity score, we're all trying. Q. I haven't heard you, I haven"t heard you say one thing that leads me to believe that you are. Your notion is that you education the children and they learn if they want to and you're teaching all children. FENDLEY: Object, that's argue--Q. That's what I've heard. FENDLEY: you're just arguing with the witness. Q. Now I'm asking you did you have a commitment to the board to do that, to the State Board of Education to eliminate disparity? A. The board in '89 made that commitment. Q. All right. Did the board, any subsequent board which you Cobb Court Reporting P. O. Box t4 Sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 were on--- A. We did not, we--- Q. back away, back away--A. no. CERTIFIED COPY Q. All right. Is that still the commitment? 57 A. It is still, as far as I know, nothing has changed
it is still the board's commitment to eliminate the disparity between the races. Q. In achievement? A. Yes. Q. I see. What is the timetable that the board has for eliminating--- A. We do not have--Q. the disparity? A. a timetable. Q. So it could take a thousand years? A. It could. Q. That's good. Did Dr. Corinine ever tell you that it was contemplated that the Joshua Intervenors would have a role before matters got to you in the development of policies, programs, and procedures with respect to the revised desegregation plan? A. Okay, say your first part again? Q. Did he tell you that before things came to the board for approval--- cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box #4 Sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: ( 501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 58 A. Uh-huh. Q. that the Joshua Intervenors would have a role in the development of programs, policies, and procedures? A. Not in those specific words. Q. In any words did he tell you that? A. It was my understanding that it would be ah, a cooperative effort and that I am, you would receive as much information as we could possibly get to you and that and, you know, we were going to work on this together. Q. Now what was your source of that information Mrs. Magness? A. Well, this whole document. Q. That's fine. were you informed by Dr. Corinine that we were being so involved? A. That was my understanding. Q. Did you receive, were you aware of a statement that we made--were you aware of the statement that I made before the board that I refer to on July 22, 1999 that we were not being involved in the planning
do you recall me--let me just draw my attention to this right here. In bullet number 4 down here, this is response #2 and #17 to your answers to interrogatories. The four little squares is what I'm referring to. A. I know, I just wanted to read the rest of it. Q. I don't want you to read the rest of it right now, I'll give you a copy of it and you have, we have given all of these to your lawyer so if they want to share it with you they can. Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box #4 Sweet Horne, AR 72164-0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 59 But do you recall me appearing before the board and telling you in 1999 that we were not being involved? A. I'm trying to remember if I was at that board meeting. Q. That's fine. Well, the minutes will reflect but you don't recall it right now do you? A. Not at this moment. Q. I'll take that back then and Mr. Fendley, I would appreciate if you would ask him to share all these answers to interrogatories with you all. A. Which bullet were you talking about on here? Q. The fourth down that's square, down at the bottom. A. Oh, on the very bottom. Q. It says that the Joshua Intervenors were not being involved. A. Well, am I missing it. Q. If you will show to me and I'll show it to you what I'm talking about. A. Oh, okay, just that one little sentence. Q. Yes, ma'am. Well, there were several others. "We all agree that Dr. Roberts role was to be more significant and had not been significant." Well, I won't go--you just don't have a recollection of that and that's understandable. Were you informed that the Joshua Intervenors were go be involved in the compliance program and trying to see to it that things worked? A. In what ways? Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box #4 Sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: ( 501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 60 Q. Based on your understanding from Corinine or anybody in 1999, did you have an impression as to the role of the Joshua Intervenors with respect to help and to work things out? A. umm, yes, that--- Q. All right. A. yeah. Q. All right. Now was it your understanding that there were Compliance Committee meetings going on throughout this period? A. That's right. Q. Were you aware that the Joshua Intervenors sought to be involved in those meetings? A. Yes. Q. Were you aware that we were denied that privilege? A. Yes. Q. What would be the reason for keeping Joshua out of those compliance meetings when the purpose of the plan was for us to work together? A. Because that was an internal working committee--Q. That's fine. A. that needed to work through problems and offer, and come up with solutions and then at that point I would think would be the time your involvement would be needed. Q. I see. But you were aware that Mr. Fendley was involved in those meetings were you? A. Yes. Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box *4 sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 - 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 61 Q. I see. What was it--- A. Well, not all of them I don't think was he--I don't know. Q. Well, didn't he have a role in that committee? A. I understood that he did attend, I don't know that he attended every one of them. Q. What was it that Mr. Fendley could contribute to that committee that even approach what I could contribute to it? A. [Laughing]. Q. I'm talking about I'm another party, we're trying to work things our--- A. Uh-huh. Q. he's simply the lawyer and the understanding was that we are trying to work these things out so that when they come to the board that can become a beta comply and if there are difference at that time we'll bring them to the attention of the board so the board can make the judgment, what was wrong with that approach? A. It was nothing wrong with that approach and it should have been done but I still didn't feel like that you should be sitting in on the compliance meetings. Q. That's fine. A. I mean if you want to work on things for the districts and programs and things we can do at your office and we'll be glad to come down and sit in on it. Q. Were you aware that we did it, that we were involved in a Cobb Court Reporting P . o . Box t4 sweet Horne , AR 72164- 0004 Phone : (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 62 number of the committees of the board? A. Yes. Q. Well why, if we can be involved in helping to deal with then handbook--- A. Uh-huh. Q. and with the Research Committee--A. Uh-huh. Q. other things, what made compliance, those were compliance issues, what made compliance off limits? A. It was not off limits. The committee which was made up of the, as I understand it, the senior administrators whose responsibility was to see that this program was done. It was their meeting to discuss with, you know, among themselves, be sure that communication was going back and forth from all the different divisions, being sure that we were doing this the best we could and then, I mean we weren't in on any of those either, board members were not
nobody was in on those. Q. Did you expect that the superintendent would be involve? A. He would have to be kept up to speed on it. Q. I see. So you're letting three or four people talk about, and Mr. Fendley talk about compliance issues and then maybe you would share some of those wi th us? Was there a party less integral to the whole process than the Joshua Intervenors? FENDLEY: Was there a party less integral? Q. Less integral to whole process than the Joshua--cobb Court Reporting P . o. Box 14 Sweet Home , AR 72164 - 0004 Phone : (501) 490 - 0066 (501) 490 - 0926 - Fax 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 63 A. What does that mean? Q. If you don"t understand it then I'll go on. A. I don"t understand, less integral. Q. integral. Did you ever receive any reports from the Compliance Committee? A. Yes. Q. In a public board meeting? A. Yes. Q. And they told you what they were doing? A. Yes. Q. So those ought to be reflected in the minutes? A. Well, let me back up to say that what were was getting was ah, reports our regular agendas about ah, Mr. Babbs would make a report and there were times when we would get reports from different of the associate or assistance, which was the second, the next one down as to what was being done in their division
yes. Q. Now the only thing I recall those things being were statements by Mr. Babbs telling you that he had met with Dr. Roberts, he had picked him up at the airport or--- A. We heard from Dr. Roberts. Q. wait a minute, I'm talking about the compliance and that ah--- A. That's all part of it. Q. you had a meeting but nothing substantively ever appeared Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box t4 Sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: ( 501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 64 on your agenda. Well, let me say if it did ah, we ought to be able to get it. So you're saying that you received reports from Mr. Babbs substantive in nature dealing with the Compliance Committee activities and I'm accepting that--- A. No, wait, wait, wait, wait--- Q. so I'm asking now Mr. Fendley--A. back up. Q. for copies of all those things. A. Hold it. SPRINGER: The minutes, we can get the minutes. A. I didn't, I did not say that. I said we got reports from the Compliance Committee, I didn't say it was about their activities. Q. Well, what else would it be now you"re getting upon the stand--- A. Okay, it would be like policies and procedures and programs and test results and Dr. Roberts and different things that were going on within the district that were necessary and needed to help us to comply with what we have said we would do
that's what I meant Mr. walker. WALKER: All right. Then I would like to get Mr. Fendley, copies of all the reports that were sent by Mr. Babbs to the board members that had been to the board meetings regarding the Compliance Committee. MAGNESS: There are none regarding the Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box #4 Sweet Horne, AR 72164-0004 Phone: ( 501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 65 Compliance Committee. Q. Well Mrs. Magness, my question deal with what reports did you get from Mr. Babbs or anyone else regarding the Compliance Committee and its work. And you"re telling me now that they sent various things to you and I just like to have a copy it, that's all. A. No, I did not say that. Q. Well, tell me again what you said. A. I said that we received in our regular board meetings much of the business that we conducted had to do with policies, procedures and programs that were put in place to comply with this report. And yes, we did receive and interim report and you have a copy of that and then we received a draft, and then we received a final report
so yes, you have all those. Q. So that"s all you say you received? A. That's all I can think of at the moment. Q. Did you ever ask him what his committee did to address the issue of remediation of achievement disparities? Did you ever ask him that question yourself? A. Not that specific question, no. Q. Did he ever give the board a report on what he and the committee had determine needed to be done in order to remediate the achievement disparities of African-American students? A. Did Mr. Babbs say that? Q. Yes, ma'am. Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box i4 Sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY 66 A. No. Q. All right. Now did anybody representing the Compliance Committee address that subject before the board? FENDLEY: When you say representing you mean on behalf of the--- WALKER: On behalf of--yes, yes. A. I don't think I understand that question. Q. Well, if Mr. Babbs wasn't there did someone else appear and give a Compliance Committee report? A. No. Q. Did Mr. Babbs ever tell you that there was an annual assessment as provided by 2.7 and 2.71 or all programs in the district? A. No. Q. Did anybody on the Compliance Committee ever address the issue of annual written assessment as contemplated by 2.7 and 2. 71? A. Not in specific relation to all programs. Q. That's right. A. No. Q. Did they ever provide a writing indicating that the Compliance Committee had made an assessment of any program and determined that it was not working? A. No. Q. Did they ever make an assessment of any program and Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box #4 sweet Horne, AR 72164-0004 Phone: ( 501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFIED COPY determine that it was working? A. Q. A. The Compliance Committee? Yes, ma'am. No. WALKER: All right. No more question. FENDLEY: No questions. 67 [The deposition ended at 2:27 p.m., October 5, 2001.] * * * * Cobb Court Reporting P. o. Box #4 Sweet Home, AR 72164-0004 Phone: (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax <e 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 (- 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 CERTIFIED COPY 68 SIGNATURE PAGE I, JUDY MAGNESS, hereby certify that the above and foregoing deposition is a full, true, correct and complete transcript of the proceeding [mark the appropriate box]: ( ) had at the time of the taking of my deposition. (OR) (~ubject to the notations on the attached Errata Sheet made by me or at my Date STATE OF ARKANSAS COUNTY OF PULASKI direction. Hffk~ ss. SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO before me, a Notar!.(,Public in Notary Public MY COMMISSION (SEAL) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 CERT\F\ED COPY 69 ERRATA SHEET (Upon completion, please sign and date this sheet below.) Page K Line _L Page ___:)_ Line JL Page~ Line 21_ Page :f5_ Line 2- Page _d!j_ Line.:
._ Page P]_ Line _/3_ Page j_ Line ~ Page i3 Line i Page Line Page Line Page Line Page Line Change: To: c..a,11,, Reason: Change: To: Reason: Change: To: Reason: Change: does To: 0 Reason: Change: To: Reason: Change: To: Reason: Change: (t! tt'il) '
, e. To: Reason: Change: To: Reason: Change: To: Reason: Change: To: Reason: Change: To: Reason: Change: To: Reason: Date Cobb Court Reporting P , O. Box t 4 Sweet Home , AR 72164 - 0004 Phone : ( 501) 490 - 0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax Page I of I - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 CERTIFIED COPY 70 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE STATE OF ARKANSAS ss. 429-84-1622 COUNTY OF PULASKI I, Gloria Y. Cobb, A Certified Court Reporter and Notary Public in and for the aforesaid County and state, do hereby certify that the witness, JUDY MAGNESS, was duly sworn by me prior to the taking of testimony as to the truth of the matters attested to and contained therein
that the testimony of said witness was taken by me in stenomask and was thereafter reduced to typewritten form by me or under my direction and supervision
that the foregoing transcript is a true and accurate record of the testimony given to the best of my understanding and abili ty. I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this proceeding was taken
and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties hereto, nor financially interested, or otherwise, in the outcome of this action
and that I have no contact with the parties, attorneys, or persons with an interest in the action that affects or has a substantial tendency to affect impartiality, that requires me to relinquish control of an original deposition transcript or copies of the transcript before it is certified and delivered to the custodial attorney, or that requir es me to provide any service not available to all parties to the act. My Commiss i on Expires: January 16, 2007 Cobh Court Re porting P , o. Box t4 Sweet Horne , AR 72164-0004 Phone : (501) 490-0066 (501) 490-0926 - Fax
This project was supported in part by a Digitizing Hidden Special Collections and Archives project grant from The Andrew W. Mellon Foundation and Council on Library and Information Resources.

<dcterms_creator>Bushman Court Reporting</dcterms_creator>