Oral deposition of Ruth White Tucker

Deposition taken at Wright, Lindsey and Jennings
Little Rock School District, plaintiff vs. Pulaski County Special School District, defendant
This transcript was created using Optical Character Recognition and may contain some errors.
Case No.: LR-C-82-866 * LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, * et al. * Plaintiffs * vs. * PULASKI COUNTY SPECIAL SCHOOL DISTRICT NO. 1, et al. * UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT * * EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS Defendants * * WESTERN DIVISION MRS. LORENE JOSHUA, et al. * Intervenors * * KATHERINE KNIGHT, et al. * Intervenors * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * THE ORAL DEPOSITION OF RUTH WHITE TUCKER * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * APPEARANCES: MR. SAMUEL JONES, III, Esq., Wright, Lindsey & Jennings, 2000 Worthen Bank Building, 200 West Capitol Avenue, Little Rock, Arkansas 72201 *** For the Plaintiffs*** MESSRS. JOHN w. WALKER & MARK BURNETTE, Esqs., 1723 Broadway, Little Rock, Arkansas 72206 *** For the Joshua Intervenors *** ALSO PRESENT: MR. BOBBY LESTER, Superintendent * * * * * * * BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. 201 East Sixth Street Little Rock, Arkansas 72202 (501) 372-5115 2 - (Y) THE ORAL DEPOSITION OF RUTH WHITE TUCKER, a witness produced at the request of the Intervenors, taken in the above-styled and numbered cause on the 25th day of June, 1992, before Jeff Bennett, CCR, LS #19, a Notary Public in and for White County, Arkansas, at Wright, Lindsey & Jennings, 2000 Worthen Bank Building, Little Rock, Arkansas, at 2:30 p.m. pursuant to the agreement hereinafter set forth. * * * * * * * * * * STIPULATIONS IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by and between the parties through their respective counsel that the deposition of RUTH WHITE TUCKER may be taken at the time and place for the purposes of discovery, pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, and that all formalities with regard to the taking of said deposition are hereby waived including presentation, reading, subscription by the witness, notice of filing, filing, etc.
and that all objections as to relevancy, materiality, and competency are expressly reserved, except as to form of questions, and may be raised if and when said deposition, or any part thereof, is so offered at the trial of this case. * * * * * * * * * * RUTH WHITE TUCKER the witness hereinbefore named, being first duly cautioned and sworn, or affirmed, to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, testified as follows: BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. 201 East Sixth Street Little Rock, Arkansas 72202 ( 501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 - 3 MR. JONES: The same observation I made on Mr. Matthews' deposition. MR. WALKER: All right. EXAMINATION BY MR. WALKER: Q. What is your name? A. Ruth White Tucker. Q. You're the President of the Board, Ms. Tucker? A. Yes, sir, as of right now I am. Q. I'm going to ask you a few questions, Ms. Tucker, about the proposed reorganization and budget cuts? A. Yes, sir. Q. Could you tell me whether or not the budget cut recommendations were made before the millage election? A. Which one? Q. The ones of March 17. A. Yes, sir. Q. Were they made with the anticipation that the millage would pass or would fail? A. Well, I anticipated it would pass. Now, maybe some of the others did not. But I felt like all along it was going to pass this year. Q. So these budget reductions that you voted upon on March 17 were passed or approved, in the cases where they were approved, with the notion in mind that you still with the millage increase BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372 - 5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 that you got would need some more money to operate the schools? A. Well, yes, sir. But my anticipation might not have been the same as the others were. But we had to be prepared in case. Just like you do at home. Q. Now, did you all have in mind how much more money you would be needing if the millage was approved, than you would be needing that if the millage failed? A. Restate that, sir? Q. Did you have a view that if the millage passed you would not need to make cuts as deep as if it failed? A. Q. Yes, sir. Did you ever have an idea or a writing which recommended or which suggested before the millage vote was taken how much you would need for operating cost with the millage passing, and with the millage failing? A. Dr. Stewart kept us aware of what -- Q. Did you ever get a writing in that respect? Is there anything in writing which said that if the millage passes, we'll still need this much money to be applied in this way? A. Q. I have to think a minute. That if the millage passes? Yes. If the millage passes we'll still need this much money to come from savings in the district or cuts in the district
did he ever reduce to writing such a proposition? A. I'm not certain about that. I don't recall. It seems that we did have. But I won't say that to be of certain. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 - 5 Q. Now, did you ever have a writing from Dr. Stewart, or Mr. Lester, or anybody under Mr. Lester's direction which said that if the millage fails we'll need this amount to be applied in these ways? A. The total amount was estimated to be 2.5 million. Q. If the millage failed? A. Right. Q. And if the millage passed how much would you need? A. I believe still 2.5 million to have a contingency fund. Q. You wanted to have 2.5 million in a contingency fund MR. JONES: No. She said to help with a contingency fund. A. In order for us to have a contingency fund. Q. Did you say help with or have, Ms. Tucker? A. Well, help with. We had a little. Q. Now, your words earlier were have, were they not, to have a contingency fund? MR. JONES: But she never said they would have a contingency fund of 2 1/2 million. A. I didn't mean to intend to imply that we would have a contingency fund of 2.5 million. Q. Let me understand this. If the millage failed you needed 2 1/2 million dollars from savings of budget cuts to operate the district? A. Right. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. 1501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 6 Q. If the millage passed then how much would you need in order to operate the district at the same level, according to Dr. Stewart's information to you, before dealing with the contingency fund consideration? A. Q. I'm sorry, but I can't answer that. Was that question ever addressed to Dr. Stewart or to Mr. Lester? A. Q. I depend on Dr. Stewart to tell us what -- But my question was, was that question ever addressed to Mr. Lester or Dr. Stewart? I guess I need an answer to that. Did you all ever ask him that question? A. Q. A. How much we would need? Yes, in the event that the millage passed. No, because I believe that we agreed that we would have to have 2.5 million. Q. A. Q. Whether or not the millage passed? To operate and to have any kind of contingency fund at all. How much was your contingency fund at the end of the 1990-91 school year? A. I'm going to say -- at the end of 90-91? Q. Yes. That's the last school year, because this year is just now about to end in another few days. A. Q. I'm going to say $100,000. That's just merely a guess. Okay. Now, if the millage passed you would be able to operate the schools and still have $100,000 contingency fund, BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 - / 7 couldn't you? MR. JONES: John, I object to the form of the question. You've leaped ahead a year. Q. I understand. Well, no, I haven't. Do you know what the amount of the contingency fund is right now, three days before the end of this 1991-92 school year? A. Not to be accurate. Q. Approximately what is it? A. I'm just going to have to say I don't know. Q. Is it more than $100,000? A. I'm going to have to say I don't know on that. Q. Have you discussed the subject with Mr. Lester? A. Not lately. Q. After the millage passed, did you have any discussion with Mr. Stewart about the contingency fund? A. No, I haven't. Q. Has Mr. Stewart appeared before the Board formally or informally with respect to the budget needs since the millage passed? A. I'm trying to remember. Yes. He has told us that we will be able to replace the maintenance and operation funds, the funds that we had taken out to start building Crystal Hill. Q. A. Q. How much was that? I'm not sure how much we had borrowed at that point. was it about $700,000 to $800,000? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8 A. It had to be that much or more. Q. And that was taken from a contingency fund, wasn't it? A. No, it was taken from maintenance and operation. Q. From maintenance and operation? A. As I understand it, that's where we were taking it from. Which is certainly not the same as a contingency fund. It was earmarked for operating expenses for this year. Q. Well, that means then that you will have $700,000 to $800,000 more funds to operate this year than you had last year, won't it? A. No, sir. We have to take care of our current expenses. Q. Once you replaced that $700,000 to $800,000, that was sort of like a loan to yourself, wasn't it, you were loaning yourself money to build this school? A. We were borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. Q. So now that you have paid Peter back, that means that you have that money available for discretionary uses as you did before? MR. JONES: That all assumes there was ever any extra money in that account. Q. Did you all operate at a deficit during the 90-91 school year? A. We hadn't gotten to that point, but we're getting close to it. Q. I guess we'll know by July 1st what the budget deficit is BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9 in the district, won't we? MR. JONES: I don't thjnk the books close that early. Q. Don't you have trial balances, Ms. Tucker, which show you what the anticipated carryover is? A. We can get it, I'm sure, if we ask for it. MR. WALKER: I would like to have that, Mr. Jones, before the hearing. MR. JONES: I can't promise a good figure. I'll get you what we got. A. Q. It would only be a guestimate. That's fine. I'm sure that that guestimate won't be 100 percent off. Ms. Tucker, have you been presented any budget to show what use wjll be made of the 2 1/2 million dollars? Well, no, you said that the 2 1/2 million dollars is needed for the contingency fund
is that correct? A. No, I didn't say that. Q. You said that without the millage you would need 2 1/2 million dollars to operate
is that correct? A. To complete the year. Q. All right. Now that the millage has passed, Dr. Stewart has told you that you need this 2 1/2 milljon dollars to go in a contingency fund? A. No. To go in maintenance and operation. MR. JONES: That's not what she said. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10 A. There is a distinct difference, Mr. Walker. Contingency means your savings, as far as I'm concerned. And if I'm wrong you correct me. But maintenance and operation, that is just like I pay out for my groceries and my shelter. Q. Let me understand this, Ms. Tucker. If this millage had passed, you would need 2 1/2 million dollars in order to pay for your maintenance and operation
that would come from savings. Now that the millage has passed, can you tell me what you have realized from the increased millage that can be devoted to -- A. we won't get but about 1.4 million of that in this next year. And all because of the 40 percent pullback. Q. Okay. That's a million-four. So that means then that you will have $1,100,000 available for something that you would not have had available had this millage not passed
isn't that right? A. It's to continue programs and replace as many of the cuts as we could. We replaced the five days that we cut off the end of school year, had proposed to cut off the end of school year, which was 1.5 million dollars. Q. So what you all have done is, you have gone aheld and come up with a replacement budget now that the millage has passed, not a replacement budget, but a budget which takes into account some of the savings that you were going to effect through this reorganization plan? In other words, you're saving some money through reorganization, right? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 - A. very little. We're saving some. Q. Approximately how much do you think you're saving? A. I don't know. MR. JONES: Can you look on that sheet? 11 A. I guess this combined savings. Some of these things we didn't cut. We were looking to cut $3,000,000 out. Q. But you didn't cut them out, did you, you didn't cut all those items out, did you? A. We did at first. And we've only reinstated two things. Q. What are they? A. Those are the five days that we cut off the end of school year and the 2 mile bus limit. Q. So that's $1,500,000? A. For that. Q. And the 2 mile bus limit? A. Is about $100,000, I believe. Q. That's $1,600,000. Can you tell me whether or not you all had any -- was this just an arbitrary judgmental kind of thing by the Board, or did you all have any criteria for determining the priorities of reinstatement of items onto the budget? A. Are you talking about the reinstatement of days and the 2 mile? Q. Yes, ma'am. Was this just arbitrary? A. No. When we cut those, those were two of the items that we had agreed on, that if they were priority items to reinstate. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 12 Q. I see. Now, did you all cut all certified salaries by 2 percent? A. No, we didn't. Q. Can you tell me which items go into your figure of $3,041,626? A. All of these here that were cut. Do you have a list of these? Q. Yes, ma'am, I do. MR. JONES: Ya'll are looking at the same thing, Ms. Tucker. A. We've cut number 3. We cut number 6. We cut number 7. We cut number 10. We cut number 11. We cut number 14 with the exception of 9 and 15 below. We cut number 15, Q. You cut number 15? A. All out of district travel. Q. Number 15 A. 15 and 25 actually were combined. Q. With the exception of what below, you said 9 and 15 below? A. 9 and 15. Q. Under the breakdown by category? A. Yes. Q. You're relating 9 and 15, meaning Specialty Fuller and Futures Program at Fuller? A. Yes, sir, we kept those. But all other teachers except these had to have only one planning period per day. We cut them BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 down to one planning period per day. Q. Where is that reflected? 13 A. It's reflected in the teachers teaching full load in 14, with the exception of 9 and 15, which was Fuller Futures Program. And we felt that was the success of that program. Q. Go on with the other items that you cut? A. 19. Q. Let me understand. You're giving me the items that you kept, or the ones that you cut? A. I'm giving you the ones we cut. I circled them in red. Q. Okay. You said 15, 19? A. 19. We cut 22. Now, these were the original cuts. Q. But 22 is reinstated? A. Right, reinstated. So was the 2 mile transportation. It was number 7. It was reinstated. 25 was combined with 15 above. All district travel, that meant district employees. And then the Board cut their own travel out, out of district travel. Q. All right. And those amounted to $3,041,626 according to my figures. Number 5, 9 and 12 were part of the reorganization plan. Q. 5, organization? A. 5, 9 and 12. Q. And number 5 purported to cut out a number of coordinators in special education? A. Yes. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 14 Q. And examiners. How many persons were to be cut out? A. That looks like about one, possibly two with the estimated savings. Q. And under the administrative reorganization was anybody to be cut? A. Pardon me? Q. Under number 12? No, let's go to 9. How many secondary instructional coordinators were to be cut? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. then I believe there was 6 originally. Are they reinstated? No, sir, not at this point. You say originally? Yes, sir. We said we'd keep math and science. Now, you said originally. Does that mean that cut some others? No, sir. And on number 12 were any persons cut? That was the total reorganization. you've since A. Q. A. Q. So that meant that you demoted a number of people and you reduced the salaries of everybody at certain levels? A. There was voluntary reductions there of 8 percentage points of the current year's salary on all the assistant superintendents. That was a voluntary reduction in the directors salaries. Q. In the directors? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 C ~ 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 / 15 A. By 5 percent, I believe. Q. So that if a director got a raise of 13 percent, and that raise equated to say $3,000, then that person would be cut by 5 percent of $3,000 or $600. 5 percent of $3,000. MR. JONES: She said 5 percentage points. A. 5 percentage points. I don't have a calculator. Q. $3,000, 10 percent is $300, 5 percent would be $150. MR. JONES: She's talking about 5 percentage points out of 13 percentage points that was the raise. Q. All right. The raise was $3,000. Then the person would be expected to be cut by a little bit more than $1,000, about $1,200? A. Yes. Q. Now, you all directed or mandated that, or did you all solicit voluntary responses? A. They volunteered to do it. And we accepted their voluntary salary reductions. Q. Now, with respect to these coordinators, did you all consider the desegregation plan before you did it? A. Well, yes, I did. Q. Did the Board have a discussion about it? A, I don't recall a formal discussion. Q. With respect to the secondary instructional coordinators, did you consider the implications of this upon the desegregation plan before you voted upon it as a Board in public meeting? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 - 16 A. I don't know that the group did. I know the individuals Q. Did you all ask Mr. Lester for his opinion about what the desegregation impact of this would be? A. I don't think that we felt that it would make that great an impact since other Q. I understand that you felt that way. But my question is, did you ask Mr. Lester to give his opinion about what the impact would be? A. I think we did. And I think he responded that other people were going to take up the slack. Q. Let me ask you, did you ask Mr. Bowles' office to tell you what the desegregation impact would be? A. I did not. Q. Did you all before you voted upon this seek the involvement of the court? A. In what way? Q. In any way. Were you aware, Ms. Tucker, that since you all have alleged that almost everything affects desegregation, that you could not change anything under those circumstances unless you had court approval? MR . JONES: I'll object to the form of the question. Q. Ya'll have taken the position in court, have you not, that it's very difficult to segregate desegregation expenses from BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 - normal operating expenses, have you not, you've taken that position, haven't you? 17 A. I don't recall having taken that specific position. I know in court when Dr. Stewart was giving his testimony, our desegregation expenses as divided out by year seems to be right on the money. Q. Can you tell me how much money last year was devoted to desegregation expense? A. No, I can't. Q. Now, isn't it true though that you all have taken the position that almost everything that you do has desegregative implications? A. I do not know that we've taken the official position but Q. That's your position, isn't it, Ms. Tucker, personally, isn't it, that almost everything that you all do through the teachers, and through the programs of the districts, and through the administrative staff for which money is spent has some desegregation benefit or expectation? A. we hope to enhance it. Q. Now, is there any particular reason, since you were making these changes, that before you implemented them you did not get court approval? A. Not that I know of. Q. Is there any particular reason you did not get our input as parties in this case pursuant to the desegregation plan? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 - 18 A. There's no reason that I know of. Q. Were you aware that you all have agreed that before you take any action to alter or modify the operative mechanism of the school system, that you all will discuss it with us first, before helping the Board formally vote on it? A. We don't feel that we modified it to such an extent that it would be necessary. Q. To such an extent. But when you cut out a number of coordinator and examiners, does not this diminish your ability to carry out the desegregation plan? A. Not necessarily. Q. Were you in court when the court got Mr. Jones to make a comment about certain things being put in the plan? You wouldn't put things in this plan that were not necessary, would you? In other words, if you got these coordinators of special ed and the education examiners, they are there for a purpose
isn't that correct? A. That's right. So are these other positions. Q. By taking them out you therefore increase the burdens on other remaining staff members, don't you? A. Yes, sir. But that's been true of any cut we've ever made. Q. I understand. But when you do that you are burdening an already overburdened desegregation process, aren't you, because you're causing the people who are already overburdened to take on more responsibility for making the desegregation plan work? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 - 19 A. I don't consider those people anymore overburdened than I do teachers and people out in the field. Q. But you all have not cut any teachers, have you? A. Yes, I think there have been some teachers cut. Q. In the budget reduction considerations for March 17 can you show me where they are: look in there and tell me where the teachers are cut? A. I believe that in number 10 they would have been cut, alpha positions. Q. Number 10. Where else would some teachers have been cut? A. Now, I'm talking about classroom teachers. Q. We're talking about classroom teachers. I don't know any others. A. There could have been some in 11. I couldn't tell you how many. That's all that I see that I can say for certainty. Q. So how many teachers positions were actually cut by the reorganization plan? A. I'm going to say possibly six. Q. Possibly six. And how many coordinators were cut? A. Four. Q. That is secondary instructional coordinators were four: is that your position? A. We've kept math and science because of the strong emphasis on math and science that we're exercising. Q. Who made the judgment to keep math and science, the Board BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 20 or Mr. Lester? A. Q. All of us together. Who made the recommendation, since the Board only operates on the basis of recommendations from the superintendent, according to its preamble? As I understand your operative documents, the Board acts on the recommendations of the superintendent with respect to operative matters, and does not itself initiate administrative action
is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. That's right. That's not the way you've been doing it, is it, Ms. Tucker? As far as I know. The alpha positions, what was the purpose of the alpha positions? A. Q. A. Q. Being cut? No. What did the people in the alpha positions do? Alpha is elementary talented and gifted. And as I understood it, the alpha positions were being used to promote desegregation? A. That's right. But what we asked them to do was to teach five full days instead of four. Q. You said you cut teachers, so you said the alpha positions were cut, four to six teachers. Now, were four to six -- A. That was four to six alpha and secondary TAG. I think there was only four, if I remember correctly. Q. Whatever the number. Whatever it was, you do understand BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. ,(501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 21 that you all were trained to use the alpha type and TAG type positions to desegregate hard to desegregate schools, weren't you? A. That's right. Q. Now, this necessarily had desegregative effect, didn't it? A. No, sir, for this reason -- MR. JONES: Let her finish, John. MR. WALKER: She said no, sir. I want to ask the followup question. MR. JONES: She's entitled to explain her answer. MR. WALKER: Not on my deposition. MR. JONES: Yes, she is. She is absolutely entitled to. A. Let me explain to you what this entailed. That's what I'm trying to say. Up until this cut was made the alpha teachers taught in the classroom four days a week. The fifth day they went to the central office for inservice and preparation of materials and what have you. We asked them to teach a full five day load. Q. Does that mean that you have cut any positions, alpha positions? A. There might have been four. Q. Now, if you had four actual positions cut, and since the desegregation of hard to desegregate schools was being achieved through alpha and TAG positions, does not this reduce your BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (50)) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 22 ability to desegregate? If you have fewer teachers to relate to desegregation specifically, doesn't that mean that fewer pupils can be accommodated? A. No, sir. Q. You have to operate within certain pupil/teacher ratios, don't you? A. You have to understand that some of these alpha people you don't get the full picture unless you let me explain it to you. Some of these alpha teachers would go to school for a half a day, then they would have traveling time to another school. What we're asking them to do is to schedule their time so that they can spend that whole day at one school. Q. If they are terminated from the district, that means they don't have any time to spend at a particular school, doesn't it? If you terminate four teachers, Ms. Tucker, that's my question? A. Take up the slack, the ones that are left. Q. What you're saying then is that these teachers were performing unnecessary tasks in the first place? A. No, they were traveling. Some part of their time was taken up in traveling. Q. Ms. Tucker, you're saying that you had these teachers, these alpha teachers in the first place doing some things that were not essential, such as traveling from school to school or doing other things like coming to the central office
in other words, you had these teachers performing work that was not BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 / 23 absolutely essential? A. Their supervisor thought it was essential, but we thought that we had to tighten our belt, and that they could perform the actual teaching that fifth day. Q. I see. so the Board initiated this action on its own, instead of waiting for the recommendation of Mr. Lester? A. This was on the original list from the year before. And I am not sure who put it on there. Q. Here's my point though. It is true that Mr. Lester did not recommend reduction of teachers who affect desegregation, isn't it, he didn't make a recommendation that the alpha teacher positions be reduced or the secondary TAG positions be reduced, did he, there was not any formal recommendation of his, was there? A. Not that I remember. Q. So that means that the Board did this on its own, doesn't it? A. we took each one of these. Q. Now, how can you be consistent as a Board when you're suppose to act on recommendations of the superintendent, but when you go ahead and take administrative action on your own as a Board
how is that consistent with your policy? A. I don't know how these got here. These were on the list from the year before. And we had agreed that we would take these up. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 24 Q. How many of the four teachers were black who were cut? A. I don't have any idea. I don't even know who they were. Q. Did you all consider the desegregative impact of that before you took the action? A. I don't think there was any adverse. Q. You cannot think -- let me ask you this. If you don't know what the numbers were, how can you arrive at the conclusion that there was no adversity? A. Because I think they'll be doing essentially the same teaching that they would heve done. Q. Ms. Tucker, I'm saying if you're cutting out four to six positions, let's assume it's six, if you're going to cut out six positions, and you're going to determine whether or not this has racial impact, must not you know how many of these teachers were black before you can arrive at the conclusion that there is no racial impact? Must not you at least ask the question? A. These people can bump one another. And we depend on Gary Miller to see that the affirmative action is taken care of. Q. So you all don't do that yourselves, you all don't oversee Gary Miller and you've gone ahead and taken certain actions which bypass Mr. Lester. In this situation you're saying that you didn't yourself, since you all have a responsibility for insuring desegregation, ask the question of what the desegregative impact is? A. I'm sure it was considered. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 25 Q. I'm sure you say it is. Now, with respect to these coordinators, how many of them were black, do you know? A. Q. A. Q. Frank Smith I think is the only one. And the others are all white? I believe that's right. Let me ask you, did Mr. Lester recommend that the School Board Member Goss' wife be promoted during the -- A. State that again? Q. Was Mrs. Goss promoted or given a title change and a pay increase during the 1991-92 school year? A. Q. A title change. She was given a title change. was she also given a pay increase? A. Q. we denied it at first. I know. Just listen to the question. During the 1991-92 school year was she given a pay increase? A. Q. A. Q. Last month. Now, was that on recommendation of Mr. Lester? Yes, sir. Mr. Lester came before you all and told you that he wanted her to be given a pay increase? A. It was a recommendation in personnel. Q. I see. Do you know any other teacher who this year was recommended for a pay increase or other administrator in central office who was recommended for a pay increase other than Mrs. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Goss? A. This year? Q. Yes. A. Not that I know of. 26 Q. Now, before you've had other people who have had grievances that were submitted through Mr. Lester, have you not, which grievances were passed upon by Mr. Lester before being passed on to the Board, have you not? A. That's the sequence. Q. Mr. Lester denied her grievance, didn't he, initially some four years ago? A. Do you have Q. Before Mr. Goss became a School Board member Mr. Lester denied it? A. He denied it this year earlier. Q. Earlier this year. All right. You're not contending that four years ago you all had made a promise to Mrs. Goss, are you? A. I wasn't on the Board four years ago. Q. Well, this year Mr. Lester denied the grievance, and the Board voted to uphold Mr. Lester, didn't they? A. Right. Q. Now, do you know what caused Mr. Lester to come back later on after this grievance was denied, and recommend that she be given a pay increase right after the millage passed? A. No, I don't. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Did that seem strange to you? No, it doesn't, because she was doing extra duty. It 27 doesn't. Q. I thought all of these teachers now had to do extra duty after the budget cuts. Everybody, as I understand it, for the last year has had extra duty. Now, why should she get paid for her extra duty, and all the other teachers not get paid for theirs? A. They're not doing the extra duty this year. Q. Here's what you're saying. You're saying they're going to be doing it next year. What you're doing is causing all of these people
Mr. Bowles, Mr. Collins, all of these other people to have greater duties this year than they had last year -- this next year than they had last year, but you're not giving them extra pay, you're giving them less pay. So I would like to understand how on the one hand you can give the School Board member's wife more pay for extra duties this year, let's just say this year, and then next year give all of the non-School Board members more duties but less pay? A. Q. We're talking about separate years. Okay. I won't take advantage of you. I think that would be just too easy. would you like to think about your answer and try to enlarge it, because the concept is that you pay a person more money -- let me back up. Here she is because of extra duties getting more pay this year. Next year when other BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. ,(501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 28 teachers will be having extra duties because of budget cuts, they won't get extra pay, they'll get less pay. A. That hadn't been negotiated yet. Q. Well, we do know that Mr. Lester is going to have more duties this year than he had last year, and he's going to get less pay. Why should he get less pay for more duties, while a School Board member's wife gets more pay for less duties, irrespective of the year? MR. JONES: She never said the lady was going to have less duties. A. She has had these duties all along. Q. For four years she's had them all along? A. I don't know about before I got on the Board. Q. For the last three years she has? A. She has been the Facilitator of Nursing. I don't know when that title change came about. Q. She was actually doing the work, and her grievance was that she was doing the work and not given the pay
isn't that correct? A. Essentially. Q. And she didn't have the title either, did she? So Mr. Lester simply gave her the title this year? A. No, now wait just a minute. Mr. Lester I don't believe had one thing to do with that title change. I think she and Eddie Collins worked that out. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. 1(501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 29 Q. Are you going to say that Mr. Collins has the power to change a title for an employee without going through Mr. Lester? A. He might have agreed to it. I do not know how the situation came about. But I do know that Mr. Collins had something to do, or that was my understanding, with the title change. I know what you're trying to do. You're trying to get me all up into a ball of yarn. So I'm trying to watch how you're phrasing things. Q. No, I'm not. I'm trying to get you to logically explain how when one person, who happens to be a Board member's wife, and who happens to be a Board member who was very active by his own admission in the budget reductions, how that person can get a pay increase, but nobody else does during a year, during a year when everybody has had some increases in job duties and expectations, and when during the next year it's proposed that a number of people have more job responsibilities than they already had, but they're going to get less pay. I'm trying to understand what's the logic in that, just what's the logic in it. Your explanation that it's another year is fine for me, because I'd like to present that one to Judge Wright and have her deal with it. But in order to be fair to you I want to give you a chance to see if you can come up with any other logic. And I'll be happy to start you off as my first witness and that be my first question. So I don't want to take advantage of you. MR. JONES: I'm going to object to anything at BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 30 trial about Mrs. Goss is irrelevant. MR. WALKER: I understand that. But we'll be trying to put it on to show that these Board members have hidden agendas, and that they treat their own much better than they do the regular staff. And this time Mr. Goss gets the preference when he steps out of the room, and Ms. Tucker and all the others go along with this. Then the next time if Ms. Tucker has a relative or somebody else has a concern, then their people be treated the same way. MR. JONES: I agree. You can ask them in a discovery deposition pretty much anything you want to to include the individual hiring decision. I'm just telling you if that's your strategy at trial I'm going to object to it. MR. WALKER: I understand you may object. But I think that the court would be very interested to hear that, especially since she's concerned about the Pulaski County budget. Q. (BY MR. WALKER) Now, I would like one more time, Ms. Tucker, to give you an opportunity so that the record will show I've done it at least three times. Do you have any other justification other than one thing happened one year and all this other is going to take place next year? A. I don't know what the thinking of the other Board members was. I was surprised when she brought it back up again. She more than likely was going to take it to court and sue us. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 31 Q. You all haven't been too concerned about resolving other matters in court. I don't know why you're going to resolve this to avoid court matters. We've got Raymond Green pending. We've got four or five other matters pending. Why are you going to try to resolve hers and not resolve the others? A. I think that's a horse of a different color. Q. It is a horse of a different color. I want that in the record. I will not ask anymore questions. That's the way I want the deposition to end. A. You just wait a minute. MR. WALKER: You can ask her. But I want the deposition to end with her saying that that's a horse of a different color. MR. JONES: would you like to explain your last answer? A. Yes, sir, I would. MR. JONES: Go right ahead. A. Because that is an expression I've used all my life. It's a family expression, and it has nothing to do with racial overtones. And let me tell you something. That I am certainly not as racially motivated against people of different races as you are. And I dare you to prove it. MR. WALKER: Ms. Tucker, I'm not on trial. But I want you to understand that I have Mr. Burnette here in the deposition with me. My staff is far more integrated than any BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 - 32 staff that you've ever been associated with. And all of my practices have been trying to bring people together rather than to separate them. A. You go back and check my record. MR. WALKER: I would like to do that. But for now, Ms. Tucker -- MR. JONES: Wait a minute. You're done. And I don't have anymore questions. MR. WALKER: On the basis of since she's still talking, I would like for her to continue. A. Do you not have expressions that have been handed down to you from generation to generation that are peculiar to your family and to your race? CONTINUING EXAMINATION BY MR. WALKER: Q. Give me some examples? A. I'm asking you. Q. I don't know. I don't really know. But horse of a different color when we're talking about Mr. Green and A. I had no intention of having racial overtones. And I can look you in the eye and tell you very certainly. Q. Ms. Tucker, there's no use being upset. A. I'm not upset. I want it for the record. Q. I want it for the record too. When you say it's a horse of a different color you were trying to avoid a lawsuit from Mrs. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 33 Goss, who's the wife of a member of the Board who would have to sue her own husband, as over against having these other lawsuits and these other people who were affected A. You take it out of context. Q. You got other people out here who are potential lawsuits too, but you didn't concern yourself about them. Even if the coordinators, and you've got grievances pending on some of them, even if the coordinators are white, they are not being given the same treatment as Mrs. Goss, because you don't care about them filing a lawsuit. A. The coordinators have gotten their raises all along as the other people have. Q. You're saying that you're now trying to rectify something that should have been rectified two years or three years ago? A. Possibly. Q. Ms. Tucker, aren't you aware that you have a continuing contract law in Arkansas, and that when she worked for her salary in the 1991 year or the 1990 year she was paid in full. She didn't have a right to go back. And if she had a claim that she was going to make that she was being mistreated, she had to assert it within a certain time? You by doing this negated the necessity for her to go to court. She couldn't have possibly gone to court anyway because she was out of time. And you gave her benefits that the other teachers weren't given, if you were trying to do that. Are you taking the position -- BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 34 MR. JONES: Is there a question in all this? Q. That raises another interesting issue. Because she was mistreated three years ago or two years ago, in your opinion, are you taking the position that she alone is entitled to some remedy, while all the other teachers who may contend they were mistreated two or three years ago may not come to court? A. I don't feel that she was mistreated. What we do, we act as a Board. We don't act as individuals. And you don't know how my vote went on that. Q. How did it go? It's a matter of public record. A. I accepted the superintendent's recommendation, the same as I did before. Q. Have you ever voted against Mr. Lester on a recommendation regarding personnel that he's made? A. I have, but I can't tell you exactly what they were. MR. WALKER: Thank you. !(WHEREUPON, the above-entitled deposition was concluded at 3:30 p.m.) * * * * * * * * * * BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 STATE OF ARKANSAS} }ss. COUNTY OF WHITE } C E R T I F I C A T E RE: THE ORAL DEPOSITION OF RUTH WHITE WCKER: I, JEFF BENNETT, CCR, LS #19, a Notary Public in and 35 for White County, Arkansas do hereby certify that the facts stated by me in the caption of the foregoing deposition are true
and that the foregoing deposition was transcribed by me, or under my supervision, on the Cimarron III Computerized Transcription System from my machine shorthand notes taken at the time and place set out on the caption hereto, the witness being first duly cautioned and sworn, or affirmed, to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this deposition was taken
and further, that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties hereto, nor financially interested, or otherwise, in the outcome of this action. GIVEN UNDER MY HAND AND SEAL OF OFFIC day of June, 1992. JEFF BENNET, CC, #19, Notary County, Arkansa My commission expires 11-29-2000 BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, ~INC. 201 East Sixth Street Little Rock, Arkansas 72202 (501) 372-5115 the 30th
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<dcterms_creator>Bushman Court Reporting</dcterms_creator>