Oral deposition of Roy Brooks, Little Rock, Ark.

Little Rock School District vs. Pulaski County Special School District
This transcript was created using Optical Character Recognition and may contain some errors.
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS WESTERN DIVISION LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT vs. LRC 82 --866 PULASKI COUNTY SPECIAL SCHOOL DISTRICT NO . 1 , ET AL MRS . LORENE JOSHUA, ET AL KATHERINE KNIGHT, ET AL ORAL DEPOSITION OF MR . ROY BROOKS DECEMBER 13TH , 2006 BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING' 620 WEST THIRD SUITE 201 LITTLE ROCK, ARKANSAS 72201 (501) 372-5115 bushma.nreporting@aoi.com RECEIVED _IMI 1 0 2006 OfflCEOF DESEGREGA"iiuN MONITORING PLAINTIFFS DEFENDANT INTERVENORS INTERVENORS APPEARANCE OF COUNSEL ON BEHALF OF PLAINTIFF: MR . CHRISTOPHER HELLER FRIDAY, ELDREDGE & CLARK, LLP 2000 REGIONS CENTER 400 WEST CAPITOL AVENUE LITTLE ROCK , AR . 72201 ON BEHALF OF JOSHUA INTERVENORS: MR . JOHN WALKER , P . A. 1723 BROADWAY LITTLE ROCK, AR . 72206 STATE OF ARKANSAS OFFICE OF ATTY GENERAL: SCOTT P . RICHARDSON ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL 323 CENTER STREET SUITE 1100 LITTLE ROCK, AR. 72201 2 STYLE AND NUMBER APPEARANCES STIPULATION PAGE I N D E X Examination by Mr . Walker . .......................... . Examination by Mr . Heller ........................ . Deposition concluded ..... : ........... . . . .... . ...... . COURT REPORTER ' S CERTIFICATE BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537 - 5110 1 1 3 5 73 74 75 3 4 ROY BROOKS PRODUCED, SWORN, AND EXAMINED at the law office of John Walker, 1723 Broadway, in Little Rock, Arkansas, beginning at 10:10 a . m. on December 13th, 2006, the above-entitled cause now pending in the United States District Court, Eastern District of Arkansas, Western Division, said deposition being taken pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, by agreement of counsel, at the instance of counsel for Joshua Intervenors. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. WALKER : Q State your name . A Roy Brooks. Q Dr. Brooks, you have been deposed before? A Yes. Q I won 't go through the preliminary ' s . When you were hired 5 did you have any experience first of all, in your training -- you do have a doctorate degree in education? A Q A Q A Q A Yes, that's correct. From what institution? Nova Southeastern University in Fort Lauderdale . Is that an on-line university? No . You had actual classes? Yes, sir. Q Did you have classes that dealt with evaluation and curriculum? A Q A Q A Q I would think so, yes . You don't recall? Yeah. I see. Undergrad. All right. I take it you don't mind giving us a copy of t his undergraduate transcript and this graduate transcript? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR . HELLER : We ' ll see if it's part of his application . may be . BY MR. WALKER : Q Where did you attend college? A Florida . Q Which college? A Florida A&M . Q FAMU? A Uh huh. Q Do you remember my namesake and "friend down there , Dr . Charles Walker? A No . He was head of the pharmacology department . No. What year did you graduate? '73 . With a major in what? Elementary ed. Were you an honor graduate? No . I see . It Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A I barely got out of there . I was happy to get the degree . Did you receive a master's degree? Yes. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 7 Q From what institution? A Nova Southeastern University. Q What year? A I don't remember . Q Would it have been within three or four years after you graduated from college? A It could have been . I don ' t have that document in front of me . Q I see . Did you graduate with honors from Nova Southeast University with respect to your master ' s degree? A Q A Q A Q A I barely got out of there too . Are you being facetious? No, I 'm being honest . I had to work hard to get it. Okay. Now, when did you get your doctorate degree? Sometime in the '90 ' s . I don't remember . So that would have been in the last 10 years? Perhaps, yeah. Would it be 10 years or almost 20? It was '90 and it's 2006, that ' s 16, 17 years. Q But you said '90's so I just assumed that it was in mid- 90's, which would have been A Q I think it was earlier than that . I see. Now, have you ever been a superintendent of schools before you came to Little Rock? A Q No . Have you ever written any books on any subject? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A No . Q Have you written any articles which appeared in any learning journals? A No . Q Have you published anything under your authorship or name? A Q A Q A Q A Q No, just when I was in school . What was the subject of your Ph . D dissertation? I don ' t remember . Do you have a copy of it? I don ' t think so . Is it capable of being reviewed? Oh , I 'm sure you could pull it up fro~ th~ archives . Of what institution? A The university I just said , Nova Southeast University, the second largest private university in America . Q I understand. Most of the students that attend there are on- line
aren ' t they? A No . It ' s a full university in Fort Lauderdale with football, baseball, soccer, dormitories . Q I see. A Q Go on-line and look it up . Weil, with respect to your dissertation, can you give me any general subject that you addressed in your dissertation? A Mr . Walker, I don't remember . That was a long time ago. don't remember what it was about. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 8 I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A You don't recall what your investigation was? I don't remember what that was about. It had something to do with self-esteem or -- I don't remember. Q Were you employed during the time you were obtaining your master's and doctorate degrees? A Yes. Where were you employed? Orange County, Florida. 9 Q A Q Would you tell me your employment history in Orange County, Florida? A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A I was a teacher . For how many years? 10 or 8. I don't remember exactly. All right. Then what were you next? Assistant Principal. For how many years? A couple. I don't remember exactly. At what school? Chickasaw. Is that an elementary school? Yes. What was your next job there? Principal. Of which school? There were a number of schools. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q Tell me the names in order . Tangelo Park. T- A- N-G- E- L-O Park . For how many years? Four or five . I don't remember exactly. All right . That's an elementary school? Yes . And ih~ next one? Catalina . Is that an elementary school? Yes. For how many years? Three or four. I don ' t remember exactly. And the next one? Orange Center. Is that an elementary school? Yes . For how many years? The same. Three or four? Yes . And the next one? I became an area superintendent . What year was that? '96, I think . And in Orange County, were the areas geographically BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537 - 5110 10 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 arranged? A Yes. Q Were they also grade level arranged? A No. The schools were -- it was geography . Q Did they cover K through 12? A Q A Q A Yes. I see . Your training was in elementary education? Yes . Was your certification in K through 12 as a teacher? No . Q I see . Was your -- all right . So you ' ve never been certified for high school? A Q A Q A Not as a teacher . I see . How many schools were in your area? 34 or 35 . Were most of the elementary? No. Elementary, middle and high school . Q By definition, most of the schools in any district are elementary
aren't they? A Most of them were elementary, yes. Q All right. Now, what was the -- for the Orange County School System what were the demographics of the student body? A For the district? Yes. 11 Q A I would say maybe 25 percent African- American and maybe 15 BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 12 or 20 percent Hispanic and the rest white. Q So your experience as a supervisor is with a majority white school system
is that correct? A That ' s correct . Q All right . So you have no previous experi ence with a majority black school system? A Orange County was more white kids , yes . Q So your experience is with a predominately white school system
isn ' t that correct? A As an area superintendent , yes . Q I see . Also as a teacher and principal? All of it is within a majority white school system
isn ' t it? A No . As a teacher, yes . Q Weren ' t the schools Tangelo Park , Catalina and Orange Center -- A Q A Q A Q No. They were -- Black schools , yes. They were black schools? Yes, sir . I see . What do you call a black school in terms of percentages? A I think if it's a majority. Q A That means 51 percent or more? I think that whatever if there are more black kids than BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 " II 1 - 2 3 " 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 white kids then I would think it would be the majority of the kids would be black, yes . Q I see . Are there any results that you have that are 13 reduced to writing which reflect the achievement of the students under your leadership at Tangelo Park, Catalina and Orange Center? A I don ' t know exactly what you mean . Q Were any written reports made by the county school system which address the issue of academic achievement of Tangelo Park, Catalina A Oh , yeah. There were standardized tests at all those schools consistent with policy, district policy and Florida law , yes . Q What I 'm asking is is there a report which reflects the relative achievement of those students in which A I'm sure back in the archives that you can go and get the achievement results of those youngsters in those schools . Q I'm not talking about the achievement results. I'm not talking about the test results . Is there any report which sets ' out how well, in writing, how well, comparatively speaking, those children in those three schools did -- A I 'don't know if that exists, Mr . Walker . Q I see . I see. Now, have you been the subject, other than in Little Rock, of any article or comment regarding your qualifications for anything, other than when you came to Little BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Rock in newspapers or otherwise? A Yes. Q Which publications? A The Orlando Sentinel . Q A Q A Q What year was that? It was i n the '90 ' s . Was that when you got ready to leave? No, that was before . Do you recall what the Orlando Sentinel -- was that an editorial or was it just a news report? A There were several editorials but I 'm sure you can pull them up . Q What was the subject of the editorial? A Q A Q A I don't remember the subject . Were you the subject of the editorial? A couple, yes . What do you recall the comments of the editorials to be? The Orlando Sentinel talked about the title was expecting excellence and it chronicled my success in being able to move one of Orlando's poorest and highest minority schools forward. That was just not a editorial, it was a feature article in Florida Magazine, which was a insert into the Orlando Sentinel and distributed to almost, I guess , 700,000 people . Q A I see . Do you recall what year that was? It was in the '90's. I don't remember what year , Mr . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 14 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 15 Walker . Q I see . Now, what school was that? A That was Orange Center . I think I have a big copy of that in my office on the wall . Q So you can make that available to us? A Oh, s ure . I ' d love for you to read that. Q All right. Now , can you tell me any programs that you initiated on purpose to address academic achievement of minority students while you were there? On purpose . Not just that were already there or were required by the curriculum. Any new programs that you initiated? A I can ' t recall . Q Did you initiate any new programs that you can identify by name? A Q A Q Academic programs? Yes, sir . I can't I don't remember initiating any . I see. Now, I take it then that basically your forte was to see to it that the teachers did well or better than they were doing before in that school . Is that fair to say? A To supervise the school, yes, as principal. Q I see. And you held the teachers more accountable
is that fair to say? A I held e veryone accountable. Q I see . Is i t fair to say that most of the teachers in that BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 school were white? A I don ' t know what the percentage was. Q Well, you know that more than 51 percent is majority so is it fair to say that most of them were white or were most of them black? A I'd have to see something in front of me to answer that completely . Q You can't recall? A I would think that a majority were probably white . Q I see. Okay . Is it fair to say that in Catalina and Tangelo Park that a majority of those teachers were also white? A Here again , I ' d have to have that in front of me . I can 't recall. Q Do you recall ever being in a situation as a teacher or a principal where a majority of your staff, professional staff , were African-American? A I don ' t recall that, no . Q All right. So your basic experience is also with situations where white people ran everything and did the teaching and everything else
isn ' t that correct? A Q I'm not clear on your question . Well, they ran the school system
didn't they? The board was majority white
wasn't it? A Q Yes. I see . And the administration was majority white
wasn't BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 53 7-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 it? A Q Yes . And the teaching staff where you were when you were principal were majority white? A Q Yes . I see . Were you under court order? Was this district under court order at the time you were area superintendent? A Q Yes . Did you ever make or give any testimony in any proceeding while the case was in court? No . 17 A Q With all the wonderful results that you obtained, you were never called upon to give testimony? A Q No . What was the court order that you were under , to your knowledge? A Q A Q any A Q A Q There was a 1972 court order . Do you know the name of the case? No . I see. Did you have any responsibility for aspect of the court order? No . Did you ever make any report to the court? No. implementing I see. What was the district ordered to do while you were BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (50 1 ) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the area superintendent? Do you recall? A The court order was in place long before I became area superintendent. Q I understand. What did you understand your duties, under the court order, to be during the time you were area superintendent? A To comply with it . Q Well, I understand. What specifically were you to do in order to comply? A It was a court order that really focused in on attendance zones. Q That ' s right. It didn't have to deal with remediation of achievement disparities
did it? A Not that I recall. 18 Q I see. Is it fair to say that the achievement disparities between black and white students in Orange County were comparable to those that you found when you came to Little Rock? A I would think so. Probably everywhere . Q You have no first-hand experience with everywhere
do you? You only have first - hand experience with two districts? A Q That's correct. I see. You haven't had any training that allows you to make a judgment about what is everywhere
do you? A Q That's correct. Now, do you recall when you came here that you caused the BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 19 removal of a number of principals? A I didn't cause the removal. Q Do you recall that a number of principals left the school system for one reason or another? Do you recall that? A I think there were some retirements and that kind of thing. Q For one reason or another? A Yeah. Q Is it fair to say that they are as follows: The principal at Hall High School
the principal at McClellan
the principal at Fair
the principal at Forrest Park, Forrest Heights Middle School
the principal at Cloverdale Middle School? Do you recall those four? A There are different principals at those schools, yes, sir. Q But soon after you got here those principals left
is that fair to say? A I was here for a year with some of those . Q I understand. Soon after you got here, they left. Is that right? A For one reason or another, yes. Q And they were all African-American? Is that fair to say? A No. Q Was not the principals at Cloverdale, Forrest Heights, Fair and McClellan, the ones who left the district, were they not all African-Americans? A No. McClellan was a white principal. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-511 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q A Q Was that Mr . Larry Buck? Yes . Did you not assign Mr . Larry Buck to McClellan? No. That was by Dr . James, I take it? A I wouldn ' t know who assigned him, Mr . Walker . Q I see . Do you recall the name of the principal at McDermott that left? A I don't want to take a guess. I don't recall the name . 20 Q You did replace the principals at McClellan, Fair, Forrest Heights, and Cloverdale in the first year with white persons
didn't you? A No. Q Upon the leaving or departure of the principal, which one of those people was replaced by a black person? A All those principals are black at all those schools . Q I'm not talking about now. The immediate replacement upon the departure of the people were white
weren't they? A No. Q Isn't it true that last year during the 2004 - 2005 school year, all of your secondary principals were white? All of your high school principals were white? A I would have to think of the schools. I don't think so . Q That's fine. Now, Dr. Brooks, how much did you know about the court order in the Little Rock School District at the time BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 I ~ ~ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 21 you were interviewing for the job? A Very little. Q And when did you, after being hired, or have you ever read all the court opinions in this case? A No. Q I see. Can you tell me any of them that you have read? A The first and most important one I read was Judge Wilson 's Order upon my appointment as superintendent . In fact , that was the first document that I received and I think I received that document in Florida , if I recall , before I permanently settled in here in Little Rock . In fact, I remember reading the document on an airplane , I think . Q Do you recall the date of that order? A I think it was 2004 . I think it was either June or July of 2004 . Q Have you read any of the other orders that Judge Wilson or any other judge entered in this case? A I have looked at some of those -- Q No . Read is my question . Have you read any of the other orders of any other persons? A Not with the thoroughness that I've read Judge Wilson ' s Order because Judge Wilson ' s Order was the one that was most important and most pertinent to me. Q I see. Now, the only one that you recall with some recollection is the order of 2004? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 I I 22 J 1 A That 's correct . 2 Q I see . Now, did you, upon being hired , meet with Mr . 3 Heller? 4 A Soon after I was hired , yes , I got together with Mr. 5 Heller . 6 Q Did you have a discussion regarding the 2004 order with 7 him? 8 A Yes . 9 Q Do you recall who else was present? 10 A I don ' t remember . 11 Q Was anybody else present at the time? 12 A I don ' t remember , Mr. Walker . 3 Q How long did the meeting last? 14 A I don ' t remember, Mr . Walker . 15 Q I see . Was it more than one meeting regarding the 2004 16 order? 17 A I probably met more than one time with Mr . Heller regarding 18 that . 19 Q Do you recall a second meeting? 20 A I recall a number of times talking with Mr
Heller about 21 the 2004 order . I can't list times, dates, etcetera, etcetera . 22 I've sp'oke with Mr . Heller on a number of occasions. 23 Q Do you make a distinction between meetings and 24 conversations? 25 A I think they are distinctly different. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 53 7-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 23 Q Do you recall more than one meeting regarding the judge 's 2004 order with Mr. Heller? A I remember mult i ple meetings with Mr . Heller regarding that order . Q Where did those meetings take place? A Mo s tly in my office. Q A Q A Were any other people present? I don't remember. Were any Board members present? I don ' t remember . Q Do you recall having any one on one discussions with any Board member regarding the 2004 order? A Yeah , I ' ve talked with the Board members about that order. Q Tell me when you first talked with Mr . Tony Rose regarding the 2004 order . A I don ' t remember exactly . Q Tell me what conversation took place between you and Mr . Rose with respect to the 2004 order . A I think that the fact that the district was still in court came up, if I refall, during my interview . Q I'm talking about meetings after you were hired. Tell me about the conversations you had one on one with Mr . Rose regarding A I can't go back and recall , with as many times as I have interacted with Board meetings, individual times with BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 s 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 specificity in terms of when I talk with a Board member about the order . Here is what I am going to say : I do recall on occasions having spoke with Board members about the order reassuring them that we would do everything we could to comply with the Judge ' s order. 24 Q Let me ask you : Have you created any writings with re s pec t to this r eassurance or which reflects your understanding of the court order? A Q I don't think there is anything that I -- I see. Now , going back to my question : Do you recall any meeting one on one with Mr . Tony Rose regarding the evaluations? A The evaluation of -- Q The evaluation process , yes . Do you recall any one on one meeting with him regarding that? A I don ' t recall . Q I see . That doesn ' t mean you didn't have any
does it? A Q A Q A Q No, it doesn ' t. Did you regularly speak with Mr . Tony Rose? I regularly spoke with each and every Board member. I'm asking about Mr. Tony Rose now. In what regard? Any regard . A Here again, I spoke -- Q That ' s yes or no . Did you regularly speak with Mr. Tony Rose during the time that he was on the Board? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q A Yes , as I did with every other Board member. I see. Have you regularly spoken with Mr. Armstrong? Since Mr . Armstrong has been on the Board, I have spoken with him by phone a number of occasions . I think we ' ve eaten lunch at least once, maybe twice . I think we ate lunch at a school together. Q I see. Have you ever discussed with Mr . Armstrong the subject of program evaluation? A Not specifically . 25 Q Have you ever discussed with him this Board resolution that was dated November 16th, 2006, which is Exhibit 8 to the previous deposition? Have you ever discussed that with -him? A Before the Board votes on anything , I call Board members to Q I 'm not asking you about A Let me finish this . Q Go ahead. I'll let you finish. A I call Board members and I ask Board members if they have any questions about any of the agenda items . That has been my longstanding practice. The Board members are provided with the i -nformation and they read it, review it, and if they have questions then they ask me . Q My question again is: Did you have any discussion with Mr . Armstrong regarding this resolution before the Board meeting? A Not one on one with Mr . Armstrong . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537 - 5110 - ~ 26 1 Q I see . How did you get this resolution? Did you develop 2 it yourself? 3 A It was part of what we needed to do . 4 Q Did you develop it yourself? How did you get it is my 5 question . I 'm not asking why yo had it . How did you get it is 6 my question. 7 A It was through our attorney. 8 Q Did it come to you by letter or by e-mail? 9 A I don 't remember. It could have been e-mail. 10 Q Did you send it to the Board members the day you got it? 11 A I don 't know if I sent it the day I got it, no . I don't 12 know if I send anything everyday. 3 Q Well, it's written in here , "it is so resolved this 16th 14 day of November". 15 A They all got it. 16 Q Did they get it before the meeting? 17 A Yes, sir . 18 Q How much in advance of the meeting did they get it? 19 A They got it, I think, 48 hours before. 20 Q Now, at the time that you sent this resolution did you send 21 a whole volume, a large volume of other documents? 22 A An- agenda packet. It's on-line, yes. 23 Q It's your practice, isn't it, to give them the agenda 24 packet two days before the meeting? Is that fair to say? 25 A That's the law . You have 48 hours. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537 - 5110 -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 27 Q What is the time that Board members have to review these documents? 48 hours? A That and somet i mes less if it is an emergency . Q Was there any emergency involving this? A It was part of the agenda packet . I don't know if an emergency meet i ng was called because of that . Q Now, did you tell anybody on the Board what the purpose of this resolution was? A It ' s self- explanator y. Q No . Did you tell anybody what the purpose of this resolution was? A I don ' t recall. Q I see . Now , did you know what was happening in PRE as of November 16th, 2006? A What do you mean what was happening? Q Did you know what was taking place within the department of PRE during that time? A What was taking place? Q Yes. A I'm not sure I understand your question . Q Let me ask you : You were aware that there had been for much of the year a number of evaluation team meetings regarding PRE matters and evaluations? You were aware of that
weren't you? A Sure . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 , 25 Q A Q A Q A Did you ever attend one of those team meetings? No . I see . Yes . Is there a reason you chose not to? What is that reason? I had staff members attend . Q I see. With this being so important , is there any reason 28 that you, as a CEO, would not come to not one of those meetings? A I tell you , there are a lot of meetings that I didn ' t attend but I had staff there. Q Well, I notice that you regularly met with the Chamber of Commerce
didn't you? A Pardon? Q You regularly met with people from the Chamber of Commerce
didn ' t you? A We're a member of the Chamber of Commerce . Q I understand. But you regularly met with the executive director and the president of the Chamber of Commerce
didn't you? A I have met with members of the Chamber of Commerce, yes . Q Name each one of them, please . A I met with the executive director, previous executive director. I don't think I met him with just one on one and I remember being in a meeting with Jay Chesher (phonetic sp. ) Q Is it fair to say that you met with them at least every BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 month? A Q I don ' t think I met every month , no, sir . But pretty regularly, wouldn't you say? 29 A I don ' t think -- I wouldn't characterize it , Mr . Walker , as regularly . Q How often would you say you met with them in the last 12 months? A I would say that I met with Mr . Chesher may two or three times , along with other superintendents . Q A Oh, you were not the only person meeting with them? No . The last two or three meetings I think we met with the superintendent of Pulaski County Special School District and North Little Rock . Q Did you discuss the subject with those people release from court supervision? A Q A Q My discussions with those That's yes or no. - - people was regarding Please listen to my question . I didn't ask what all of them were. I asked if you discussed the subject of release from court supervision . A The last time the three superintendents met with Jay Chesher, I think that did come up. Q Did you ever tell anybody what the advantages to being out of court were? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 30 Who is anybody? Anybody in the world. Anybody? A Q A I think one of the most important advantages is is that for the first time the court is not really supervising the district but the Board of Directors are supervisini the district. I would think with the historic hoopla about a majority black board that those members would readily embrace the fact that now we can supervise this district without the intervention of the court, without the intervention of the lawyers, etcetera, etcetera . I think it would be something that would be historic in nature. Q That's the only one that you can come up with? A I think that's a very important one. Q What are the disadvantages to court release? A I think the public . I think the expense . I think that getting -- Q A You said the expense is a disadvantage? I think there are expenses associated with this court supervision. We're paying lawyers -- Q Let me go back. I'm asking you about the difference between a pro and a con . I'm asking you what are the disadvantages. Do you know what is meant by disadvantage? A Q A Yes .. What are the disadvantages of getting out of court? The disadvantages? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Yeah . I think there are advantages -- Q I'm asking only about disadvantages . 31 A I am not going to suggest to anyone that not getting out of court is not a good thing . Getting out of court is a good thing . Q You see no disadvantages? A Personally, I think it would be a glorious day to get out of court. Q My question is : Do you see any disadvantage in A I only see advantages in getting out of court . Q Let me ask you this : If you lose 30 million dollars a year or 40 million dollars a year, what is the advantage of that? A That is a number that I ' ve heard you throw around and I don't think Q Wait a minute . Let ' s assume if you lose 10 million , whatever million, what is the disadvantage of losing that money? A We don ' t know how much we'll lose if we lose and we don't know when we'll lose it . I think that that is something that people have overstated and exaggerated and it's speculation . Q Just a moment . Have you sought to conduct a study to determ~ne what the loss will be -- A Q A I've done no study . --and how it will be made up and from where it will come? We've done no study . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537 - 5110 ' -~ 1 - 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q I see . A No , sir . Q Now, what will be the disadvantage in losing the magnet schools? What will be the advantage in losing the magnet schools? A I think the magnet schools are very important. Q What would be the advantage in losing them? A I don ' t want to think about losing them, sir . Q I see . But you haven ' t considered that
have you? A I don ' t think we ' ll lose them . Q Have you considered that? A We ' ve -- Q That ' s yes or no . 32 A We ' ve considered that we would have to really find ways to continue what I think is something very important . Q Have you had a discussion with Mr . Heller about that subject? A We've talked about the magnet schools , yes . Q Now, have you reported to the Board the results of those conversations with Mr . Heller on retention of and continuation of magnet schools upon court - - A No, there hasn't been any reason to do that. Q All right . Have you - - what is the advantage of eliminating the M to M transfer program? A Here again, it - - BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 q 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 is 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q What is the advantage? The advantage? Yes . What is the advantage of doing that? A I'm not sure I understand your question . Q You don't understand? You're a superintendent and I am 33 sure that is a simple question . What is the advantage of losing the M to M transfer programs? A Well , the advantage would be that some districts have a lack of kids- - Q A Your district . --going from majority to minority schools and being provided with the transportation. Q So the advantage would be to put them back in their neighborhoods? A I don't think that will happen. Q Well, just a moment . What will happen upon the loss of M to M funds by this district if you chose to let that happen? What would be the advantage of that? A I don't see that happening . Q You don't see that happening? Hasn't Mr. Heller informed you and you have informed others that you may expect to lose M to M funding? That's yes or no. BY MR . HELLER : Object to the form of the question . BY MR. WALKER : BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q 34 Have you not been informed that you will soon, by the 2007 year, lose M to M funding? A I don't think that taxpayers Q Just yes or no . A I have to -- Q I'm not asking you about what you think. I'm asking you about your information now. Your thoughts -- A Nothing is going to last forever. Jhis funding one day is going to go away. Q Just a moment. Have you been. infermed that you will lose M to M funding at the beginnirig of the 2007- 2008 school year? A r don't think a decision has been made about that. Q Have you been so informed? Yes or no? A No. That would be speculation. Q In the event that M to M funding is lost, do you have a plan for replacing that money? A We have no plan, Mr . Walker. Q In the event that those children are no longer able to go their regular schools, where will they be assigned? Do you have a plan for that? A We have no plan . Q I see. Who will be the children most disadvantaged by being removed from their M to M transfer schools? race of the students? A I'm not sure. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 What is the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Who are the students being transferred from tl School District to Pulaski County now under the M to M transfer rules? A Q Black children. Which means that if they have to, if they are no longer able to go to the county schools under M to M then that means they ' ll h ave to return to Little Rock
doesn ' t it? A And we will get the funding for those youngsters . Q Do you know how much funding that will take? A Whatever the foundation funding is per student. Q No . I 'm asking you : Do you know how much funding that will take? A Q A Q Oh, no, I don't know that . Do you know the schools to which they would be assigned? No, I don ' t . No , sir. Have you asked Mark Millholland to run an analysis of cost benefit to that endeavor? A No. Q A Have you had cabinet discussions regarding that subject? No . Q I see . Have you had discussions with Tony Rose and Mr . Brock regarding that subject? A No. Q Now, have you had discussions before she became president of the Board in the last year with Dr . Katherine Mitchell on any BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 1.5 16 17 - 18 19 20 21 22 Ill 23 24 25 36 subject? A Oh , sure . Q Is it fair to say that she told you in no uncertain terms that you were not treating the teachers of the district fairly? Did she tell you that one on one? A I don ' t recall if she used those words, no . Q Did she tell you that your performance as superintendent was sorely lacking? A I don ' t remember that . Q Did she oppose your getting a raise? A She probably did. Q Probably? Do you know? A I ' d have to have it in front of me . I don't know. Q When you say she probably did, did she not tell you face to face that she felt that you were adversely impacting upon black children and poor children in southwest Little Rock? A No. Q She did not? A She ' s never told me that. Q Do you play tennis with her? A If she'd give me a call, I'd love to play tennis with Dr . Mitchell . Q I understand. Do you play tennis with Mr . Berkley regularly? A Yes . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (50 1 ) 537-5110 37 1 Q Y' all go to eat every so often after playing tennis? 2 A No, we don't. 3 Q Y'all don ' t socialize afterwards? 4 A No. 5 Q You don ' t socialize with Mr . Berkley at all? 6 A I've been to Mr . Berkley 's house, yes . 7 Q Okay. Now, how many times have you been to Mr . Walter 8 Hussman's house? 9 A I don't recall going to Mr . Hussman ' s house . 10 Q Not at all? 11 A I don't recall . 12 Q You don't recall? 3 A No . 14 Q Are you saying you never did? ) 15 A No, I haven ' t been 16 Q How many ~imes do you regularly meet with Mr . Hussman? 17 Have you in the last year met with Mr. Hussman? 18 A I've met with Mr. Hussman on several occasions . 19 Q Is several more than five or six or just one or two? 20 A I don't kn9w exactly how many times, Mr. Walker. 21 Q How many times have you met with his staff? Somebody other 22 than him representing the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette? 23 A I don't recall meeting with anyone else. 24 Q You don't remember meeting with Mr . Paul Greenburg? 25 A I do remember that, yes . - BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (50 1 ) 537 - 5110 - I 1 -- 2 3 " 4 5 - 6 - 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 38 Q All right. You understand he ' s on Mr . Hussman ' s staff? A Yes. Q You do recall meeting with him and Hussman together
don't you? A yes, that ' s correct . Q On more than one occasion
don't you? A No, only one occasion . Q What was the subject of that meeting? A We talked about, I think, the district's reorganization , if I remember correctly. I don't think Mr . Hussman was there . In fa~t , Mr . Hussman was not there . Q I see . Did Mr. Hussman privately fund yo~r merit pay initiative? A The first year Mr . Hussman did fund that, yes , sir. Q And did you ask the Board to approve him doing that at the time that it was done? A The second year, yes . Q No , the first year . A The first year I wasn't here . Q Well, was that done through the Public Education Foundation? A The first year? Q Yes . A Yes, it was. Q Now, the Public Education Foundation was not really a BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 I - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 private organization
was it? A Yes, it's a private organization . Q But y ' all paid from this district payroll at least one of the staff members
didn't you? A A portion of her salary, yes . Q You paid all of her salary for three years
didn't you? A I don ' t remember paying all of it . I do remember paying a portion of it . Q And you do remember paying a portion of the salary of other people
don ' t you? A No , I don't recall that . Q Isn ' t it true that you let them bill you on a monthly basis for at least one- third of their salary and Mr . Millholland regularly cuts the check upon presentation of an invoice? A I only recall one employee that we were some how or another helping with her salary . Q Does the Public Education Foundation have any voice or role in the evaluation process? A Not in Little Rock Public Schools. Q How is Project Sword being evaluated? A Project Sword is not being evaluated . Project Sword is Q That's all I asked . You said it's not being evaluated. Now, does the Little Rock Public Education Foundation have interaction with the teachers involved in Project Sword? A Yes. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (5 01 ) 537 - 5110 I I 1 I 2 3 - 4 5 - 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 40 Q And who is the principal person from the Little Rock Public Education Foundation who interac~s with your teachers from the Public Education Foundation? Who is that person? A You'd have to ask Olivine Roberts . I'm not sure I know . Q Are you on the board of the Public Education Foundation? A Yes . Q Is the Public Education Foundation subject to the pol i cies, rules and requirements of the Board of Education of the Little Rock School District? A They're independent . Q I see . So the Board cannot determine what the Public Education Foundation ' s role with it is
is that your position? A No . Public Education Foundation is a separate entity. It ' s not regulated by the school board of Little Rock . Q Now , is there any board resolution authorizing the Public Education Foundation to receive public funding from the Little Rock School District? A Any what? Q Has the board approved any regulation authorizing the Public Education Foundation to get funding directly or indirectly from the Little Rock School District? A The Public Education Foundation -- Q That's yes or no. A - - has contributed magnificent Q Listen to my question. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTI-NG (5 01 ) 53 7-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Okay . Q Is there anything authorizing the Public Education Foundation to receive funds from the Little Rock School District? A Not that I 'm aware of . Q Are you aware that regularly every month Mr . Millholland cuts a check to the Public Education Foundation? A He no longer does that . Q When did he stop doing that? Last month? A Q It could have been . Why did he stop doing that? 41 A Because it was an agreement that cince the Public Education Foundation got solid enough that they would assume that responsibility . Q I see . Now, have you explained the role, including Mr. Armstrong, the relationship between the Public Education Foundation and the Little Rock School District? Have you done so? A I asked Lisa Black -- Q I'm asking if you have done so . A I wouldn't be the one to do that, Mr. Walker . Q I see. Now, Ms. Black doesn't work for the school district
does she? A Q No, sir . -She did until last month
didn't she? About the time of BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 \ this resolution? Ms . Black didn't work for the school district . She was just paid by the district? A portion of her salary, yes . Did she have a written contract with the district? I don ' t know that. You'd have to ask Mr . Millholland . You don ' t recall seeing the contract? No, sir . 42 A Q A Q A Q A Q All right . That's fine . Let me ask about this evaluation . Before I get to that part , have you had occasion to refer to present counsel as a parasitic lawyer? A I would never do that, Mr . Walker . Q I see . Are you aware of any payments that have been made to the Joshua counsel in this matter in the last two to three years? A Only what I ' ve seen on paper . Q Have you seen anything on any paper indicating that we've received any payment for cost or fees in that period of time? A What period of time? Q Between the time you got here and now . A Q Since I've been here, I haven't seen anything, sir . Now, do you contend that you have the authority to hire lawyers for the district? Do you contend that you have that authority? A Yes, I ho~e so . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 43 Q Is there a writing that sets the terms and conditions under which you may hire lawyers? A There is a policy, yes. Q Does it set the hourly pay and things like that or is it subject to bidding? A I'm not sure. Q I see. Let me go to direct matters . Is there a difference, in your opinion, between of policy of the school district and a regulation of the school district? A Yes . Q A Q What is the difference? A policy needs Board approval. What about a regulation? A I don't think a regulation needs approval of the Board . can be part of a policy. Q I see . Is there a process -- let me understand it . One needs approval from . the Board and one doesn't. What is the purpose of a policy? It A The purpose of a policy is something you abide by . It's a rule. Q A Q What is the purpose of the rule? To make sure there is consistency in what you do. Doesn't it set the standard for the district as to what conduct may be engaged in by the administration? A I hope so. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 \ Q A Q 44 I see . Isn't a regulation something to implement a policy? It can be part of a policy, yes. But a regulation itself is not a policy
is it? A A regulation is separate from a policy but it can be part of a policy . Q Is Policy IL-Ra policy or part of a policy? A That is a Board policy that was approved by the Board . It is the comprehensive assessment process. Q I'll show you a policy that says IL-R. Is that the Board policy? A Q A Q A Q A Q It seems as if it's the policy, yes. Do you know whether that was approved by the Board? Yes, it was. When was it approved? December 2004. Were you present at the time? Yes. So there should be a motion and a second and all the other things that.approves it in that process? A I'm sure the minutes would reflect that. Q Now, if this is a policy it is supposed to be posted to the website
isn't it? A It is posted. BY MR. HELLER: Should we make that an exhibit t.o his deposition BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 so we can see what we're talking about? BY MR. WALKER: Yes. We'll make copies and give it to you. BY MR. WALKER: Q Now, is there a difference between the program evaluation 45 agenda, which also has JL-R as its code and what will be to your deposition Exhibit 3, is there a difference between the two? Is there a difference? A Q is? A Q I don't know what this is. In other words, Exhibit 3, you 're not aware of what that I'm familiar with this , yes . And you're not aware whether Exhibit 3 is posted on your website? A I'm only familiar with this, yes. Q So it's your position that the document that is entitled as . Comprehensive Program Assessment Process is posted, not the Program Evaluation Agenda
is that right? A I'm aware of this, yes. Q And you 're referring to Exhibit 2, Comprehensive Program Assessment Process? A Yes . Q Thank you. Now, you don 't know what number three is at all? You've never seen it before? A Not to my recollection. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 - ' 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q I see. A I see a lot of stuff. Q Let's get to your testimony about evaluation. Would you agree that you have not informed Mr. Armstrong of the Court's requirements with respect to program evaluation? 46 A Mr. Armstrong met with legal counsel the first week or two he was on board . Q My question is you. I'm talking about you. Would you agree that you have not informed Mr. Armstrong of the Court's requirement? A I have not talked-with Mr. Armstrong about that document, no. Q I see . Have you heard Mr. Armstrong express in a public place -- you were aware that he ran for office? A Yes. Q And were you aware that he ran for office in part for the purpose of focusing attention upon the achievement of AfricanAmerican students? Were you aware of that? A I heard him talk about the achievement of students, yes. Q Okay. At the time that he was talking about the achievement of students, is it or is it not to true that you were aware that I was in the audience? A I'm not aware of that, no . Q Did he ask that Dr. DeJarnette or did any Board member ask that Dr . DeJarnette provide information to the Board regarding BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 program evaluation? A Q Dr. DeJarnette did report to the Board . My question was: Was this on the initiative of some Board member? A Q I 'm not sure I follow your question . Do you not recall sending an e - mail to Dr . DeJarnette indicating that the Board members had some questions regarding prQgram evaluation? A Q Yes . And is it fair to say that that e--mail was approximately dated November 3rd, 2006? A Q I would have to see it but -- If the Board members requested information from Dr. DeJarnette regarding program evaluation, would it have been appropriate for her to have responded at the public meeting to their concerns? A Q If they asked that, yes. I see. You were aware that they did ask it
isn ' t that correct? A Q A Q A Q Yes . Which Board member asked you to ask that? I think there were two . Who were they? Dr. Mitchell and Mr . Berkley. I see. Now, did they tell you why they wanted her to BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (50 1 ) 537-5110 47 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 48 address the issue of program evaluation? A I don't recall. Q That was just in October or November. Are you saying that less than six weeks ago you have no recollection of what they told you? A Dr . Mitchell and Mr . Berkley asked for the report I believe because there was some disagreement in some information that had been shared _with them, with the whole Board, in factj I think . Q I'll show you an e - mail dated November 2nd and a response on November 6th regarding the evaluation. Do you recall that? November 2nd from 'you . It says, "Olivine , Please notify Dr. DeJarnette that the Board has requested a compliance reme9y update at the November 9 agenda meeting. That presentation should also involve other members of PRE. Everyone in the department should be available that evening ". A Yes. Q You sent that? A Yes, I did. Q- Did yo_u expect her to give an honest appraisal or presentation to the Board of Directors at that time? A I would hope so. Q I see . Now, did you inform the Board, the other Board members, that the request for Dr. DeJarnette to appear before it had come from at least two of them? A They were there that night . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ' 49 Q I understand they were there that night but did you , before they got there, inform them that the Board members had initiated the request that Dr . DeJarnette make an appearance and presentation to the Board? A I didn't see it necessary . They were all there that night . Q I see . But you understood that at that meeting that night that Mr . Baker Kurrus raised the question of Dr. DeJarnette coming directly to the Board with her presentation. Do you recall that? A No, I don ' t recall that. I think that ' s taken out of context. I think what Mr . Kurrus said that night, as I recall, was Dr . DeJarnette providing information to Board members and everybody else without going through appropriate protocol. Q All right . What was the appropriate protocol after the Board requested the update? A Q I think we ' re . talking about two different things. Tell me what the protocol was that she was required to follow according to Mr. Kurrus . A I think we're talking about two different things. We need . to clarify - - Q was A Q I'm talking about Mr. Kurrus' response . Your answer to me Are you talking about Mr. Kurrus' response that night? Yes, that night. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 \ 17 18 19 20 21 22 -23 24 25 I I A At the Board meeting? Q Yes. You're saying that Mr. Kurrus was dealing with protocol
is that correct? A Yes. Q What did he understand, according to what you understood, the proper protocol to have been? A To go through the proper chain of command . Q What was that? A Dr. Roberts. Q And then whom? A Mr. Hattabaugh. Q And then whom? A Me. Q Before going to the Board? A Before presenting to the Board? Q Yes. A We're talking about information. That information was shared that was inconsistent with the chain of command and protocol. Q What information was shared with the Board that was not shared with Dr. Roberts or Mr. Hattabaugh or you by Dr . DeJarnette? 50 A I'm not sure I know what information you're talking about. You tell me what information and I could -- Q You're saying that she did not f o llow protocol and that she 9USHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 went directly to the Board
is that correct? A Q Yes . So what information did she present to the Board that had 51 not previously been given to you , Dr . Hattabaugh or Dr. Roberts? A You have to help me here . Tell me exactly what information are you referring to and then I can help you , then I can answer your question . Q You ' re saying that when she went to the Board directly she did follow protocol , according to Mr . Baker Kurrus . Now , what information did she provide to the Board that had not been previously provided to you by her? What information? A Did she provide - - Q To the Board that had not been previously provided to you . A She sent a letter to the Board that I had never seen before. Q A Q A Q Was it dated after November 2nd? I don't remember what date it was. And what did the letter say? I don't remember exactly . What do you understand the content or the substance of the letter to have said? A I think the substance of the letter was to imply that the Board had not been given all of the information which was false and erroneous and to also suggest that what was turned in was not factual and accurate, which was also false and erroneous . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 52 Q I see . It was turned in to whom? A Provided to the Board in a letter to Dr . Katherine Mitchell . Q I see . Now, so you're saying that she should not have written a letter to Dr . Katherine Mitchell? A I'm not saying she shouldn't have written the letter . Q You ' re saying that she should have provided accurate information? A I'm saying that her actions with that information going to the Board after something had been submitted to you and the Court and everyone else gave me reason to believe that something improper was going on here. Q What was improper that was going on? A To send a letter to the president of the Board and to other Board members that had very little or no factual basis. Q Let ' s just deal with that for a moment. What was it that had no factual basis? A I think the letter and report -- Q Just the contents of the letter as you recall it . Just identify the things that -- A I can ' t identify the specifics of that letter. If you put it in front of me - - Q All right . Since I don't have that letter can you tell me whether she indicated that program evaluations had not been embedded in the curriculum? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q I don't have the letter in front of me. Did she indicate that program evaluations had not been embedded in the assessment and evaluation process? A I don't know if that was in the letter . It was not accurate. 53 Q I see. Tell me this: Has program assessment been embedded, in your opinion , in the fabric of the school district? A I think that - - Q A Q That's yes or no. Yes. All right . Tell me how it has been embedded, please. A I think it's a part of our process to use data and to look r at programs in terms of whether or not they are effective to determine if kids are learning . Q All right. Tell me what is your definition of embedded in the process . A Being able to provide data and information to determin~ the effectiveness of the programs, particularly those programs that were a part of the Court order, to determine whether or not we're getting the desired results. Q How do you embed something? I'm not talking about how you use it. How do you embed it? How did you expect it to be embedded? A You embed it by it becoming a part of the actual pr0cess that you use to determine what you do. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ll 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q 54 Tell me how the process is embedded in the school district at this time. A I think it's embedded because we have data now . We have information that can be used to determine whether or not something is being effective and, if it is, then certainly we want to continue to do it. Q A Where are those data at this moment? I'm talking about data as it relates to where kids are, test scores, etcetera. Q Where are those data maintained? I'm using data plural and that's why I'm saying are. A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q Data is everywhere. Data is Just everywhere? Yeah. All right. It's at the schools. It's at the district level. I see. Now, is there a central source where it is? I think we're working to do that . There is a warehouse But you haven't done it? I think to a degree we have. I understand. What is the status of that at this time? What is the status of what you've just described at this time? A I think it's good. Q Good doesn't mean anyt hing to me. Is it complete? Is the data storage -- BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (5 01 ) 537 -5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A I don ' t think that nothing is as it relates to continuous improvement is ever complete. You continue to work . You continue to improve . 55 Q Doctor , is there a data warehouse completed in the district at this time? A I think there ' s a data warehouse that can provide the information that we need . Q Is there a data wa rehouse completed in the district at this time? A I think that there is a data warehouse that we can still work and make better . Q A Make better? Yes , sir . Q Going back to your memo dated November 2nd . Did Dr. Olivine Roberts tell you that she had asked Dr . DeJarnette to respond to the Board? A I would think she did . This is what she was asked to do . Q Is this the letter that Dr . DeJarnette sent in response to Dr . Mitchell ' s request that is dated November 3rd? Do you recall that? BY MR. HELLER : I ' ll object to the form of the question . recall anything about Dr . Mitchell ' s letter . BY MR. WALKER : Well, the request for Dr. Mitchell is the BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 I don ' t 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 56 question. BY MR. BROOKS : This is interesting because I've never seen this letter . BY MR . WALKER : Q Can you tell me anything in that letter -- first of all , should that letter first have gone to Dr . Roberts for approva l? A Apparently it didn ' t . Q No . Should it have, according to protocol? A I think I would have , yes. She should have been aware of that. Q Is there anything in writing that requires that that level of protocol be-applied? A Yes, the chain of command . Q Is the chain of command in writing? A Q Yes , it ' s the organizational chart . Well , that ' s the chart but the chart just shows who reports to whom
doesn ' t it? A It certainly does . Q I see . Now , did you before that time ever require that any letter that came from Dr . DeJarnette be first given to Dr. Roberts? A I would hope so if it ' s going to the Board . Q If it's going anywhere is there a requirement that she cannot directly communicate to those persons that she feels BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 necessary, that ~s Dr . DeJarnette, that she feels necessary to be responded to? A I think this was a very aifferent circumstance here . 57 Q So you're saying that she should, after you have requested that she make a report to the Board , you are taking the position that she should have gone directly to Dr . Mitchell? A This was a situation where Dr. DeJarnette provided information that was not accurate and it was not proper . Q What was the information in that letter that you recall was not accurate? A I don't have it . Q Now, at the time that she sent this , she sent it to Mr . Heller
didn ' t she? A Q Mr . Heller has been copied. He ' ll have to answer . Now, she indicated first that she thought that there was some important information that the Board had not received directly from PRE on some occasions . A Q A Yes . Was that improper for her to say? And it was not factual . Q Well, how do you know that the Board had received information that all the Board members had received information directly from PRE? A I can only say that since we believe that the Board of Directors has not received important information direct from PRE BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 53 7-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 58 on some occasions that this unusual delivery should be. That's not true . Q How do you know it IS not true? A All information relative to -- Q How do you know it I S not true? A Pardon me? Q How do you know it's not true? BY MR . HELLER: Let him answer . BY MR . WALKER: Q I'm not talking about what you normally do. You say you give information out that is given to you but now how do you know that it's not true that the Board did not receive some important direct information? How do you know that's not true? A No one has ever told me that the Board has not received all important information as it related to this compliance issue . Q All right . I'll just go to the next one. "One of the occasions when we feared the Board did not receive this department's thoughts was the last quarterly written update" . Was the last quarterly written update provided to the Board, the one dated September 1, 2006? That's yes or no. A Q A Q Here again, I -You don't know? (No audible response) All right. The second sentence -- is it true that you BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 59 don't know? Is that fair to say? A I wouldn't say that . One of the occasions when we feared the Board did not receive the department's thoughts was the last quarterly written update Q Did you provide the Board the last written quarterly update dated September 1, 2006? That 's yes or no . A I would think so, yes . Q You would think so? A Q Yes. You don ' t know. A Yes . Q Okay. The version delivered to the superintendent's office for the Board's review is Appendix A. The version submitted to ODM omitted all of Section Band much of Section C
isn ' t that correct? A What is correct? Q That there -- first of all, the version that was delivered by her to you all had been edited and then the edited version was submitted to ODM
isn't that correct? A The version that was submitted was an accurate, factual version upon which Dr. DeJarnette, as I understand it, was in a meeting and agreed Q Please listen to my question . You had two different versions of this report
didn't you? A There was only one version submitted. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 60 Q Listen to my question. It is true that there were two different versions of this report
isn't that correct? A There was only one version submitted -- BY MR. HELLER: Listen to his question . BY MR. WALKER: Q There were two different versions of this report
wasn't there? A Yes. Q All right . The one that was submitted to you was given to Mr . Heller and Mr. Heller edited it
isn't that correct? A Q It was just not Mr. Heller. Whoever . But it was given to Mr. Heller and Mr. Heller edited it
isn't that correct? A It was just not Mr . Heller. Q Who else edited it? A It involved Dr . Olivine Roberts, Hugh Hattabaugh and I think input from other members of the PRE staff that had a different opinion about what was in this document and Dr . DeJarnette. It was just not Q Let me ask you: It is true that the version that she submitted to your office was not given to the Board
isn't that correct? A Q Which version? The first version was edited, yes . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 -5 110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 \ Q And it was not given to the Board? A Exactly . We ' re not going to give the Board unfactual information . Q All right . Now , the first one she says , "On these pages PRE described obstacles to the district's embedding and sustaining timely and accurate assessments of its program". A That ' s not true. 61 Q She says , "it ' s omission from the update allows a reader ' s false i mpression that the district has progressed further than it has ". Now, is that not a conclusion that perhaps reasonable people can disagree with? A No, that ' s not true . Q What is not true? A Q A Q A What you just read. Well, it was the description That ' s her opinion . I understand . But it's not true . Q Isn ' t that what the Board members requested was her opinion? A Q A No . Let me ask you this - - The Board members expected factual information . It was her opinion. It was not the opinion of Or . Olivine Roberts. It was not the opinion of Hugh Hattabaugh. It was not the opinion of BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 our attorney and it was not the opinion of members in the PRE Department who work with her . This was her opinion . Q A Q Wasn't she -- Her opinion only. Wasn ' t she entitled to give, as a director of that department, her opinion to the Board? That's yes or no. A Q A No . All right . That ' s fine. Now Everybody has an opinion. We want facts given to the Board. Q Now, if the Board asks for opinions, isn't she obliged to give the opinion? A Facts. That's what we give to the Board . I can give an opinion to the Board. You can give an opinion. Q If the Board asks for an opinion -BY MR. HELLER: Just answer the question . BY MR . WALKER: Q If the Board asks for an opinion from one of your staff members regarding that person's best professional judgment -- A Then that's fine. Q Isn't that what the Board asked? A Not from her, sir. Q They did not? A No, sir. This is a very important document. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 62 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 63 Q I see . Now , "another reason for submitting this document to you is a probable absence by two of our department ' s members on November 9". Is that correct? A I think there were a couple of people out for whatever reason or another . Q I see . So you object to her conclusion that the district may give, by what it is submitted, a false impression that the district has progressed further than it , in fact, has? A I object to anyone in the organization who is producing and giving a document that is not factual . Q Now , has any of the other quarterly reports been edited by Mr . Heller? A Q We review all the quarterly reports . Listen to my question . Had any of the previous quarterly reports been edited by Mr . Heller? A I 'm sure someone has . If it wasn't Mr. Heller, it was someone else . Q Did you direct Mr . Hattabaugh or Mr . Heller to edit this _,,)
report that had been delivered to you by Dr . DeJarnette? A I asked Mr. Hattabaugh, Dr. Olivine Roberts, and Mr. Heller to make sure and assure me that the information that we were going to submit to the Board for approval to be submitted to the Court was accurate and was truthful, yes, I did that . Q Isn't it true that Mr . Heller informed you and other people that it wasn't that the information was not accurate, it was BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that it was unnecessary to provide to the Court? A Q There was some information Listen to my question . BY MR . HELLER : Let him answer the question . BY MR . WALKER : Q Go ahead . A There was not only information that was not necessary, there was information that was not accurate and there was information that was not factual . Q What information was not accurate? A Some information regarding the Arkansas Department of 64 Education , some information regarding the programs, some information regarding Tetra data as it relates to business objects was not only not factual but it was untruthful and a deliberate attempt to distort the truth. I was not happy about it. Q Where does she say anything in here about Tetra data? A That was all a part of the report that you were asking me about. Q All right. So that was in the initial report
is that fair to say, that was taken out by Mr . Heller? A Mr . Heller did not just alone do that. Q A Can you tell me Let me finish. It was -- BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q I understand what your answer is . Now, can you tell me what portions of the report were edited by Dr. Roberts? A It was a team effort. Q A Q Can you tell me? Dr. Roberts -- Please listen to my question. 65 A --Mr. Hattabaugh, Mr . Heller, people in the PRE Department all working together to make sure that the information that was provided to the Board was accurate and was factual because this was a very important document. It's not one person that Dr. DeJarnette has tried to create that really is all encompassing to do this. That's not how we operate in this district. I'm sorry people felt that way. BY MR. HELLER: Just answer his question. Do you know any particular part that Dr. Roberts edited? BY MR . WALKER: Q A Q Do you know what part of the report -I wasn't in the meeting, no. I see. Did anybody ever report to you the parts that they individually edited? A Not on an individual basis, no. Q I see. She submitted one report and that was edited and then the edited report was sent to the ODM and it would be useful for the Board to have both reports
that's what she said BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 66 wasn't it? A That's what she said in the letter . Q And you're saying that she should not have told the Board that there were two reports? You ' re saying that
aren't you? A Absolutely, because one report -- Q That 's fine . A -- was not accurate . Q All right . And she's saying that because one report has an commission it allows the false impression that the district has progressed further than it has . That's what she said
right? And you disagree with that? A In the letter, yes . Q I see . All right . Now, you ' re saying that she should not have told the district that one report may give a false impression? She should not have said that to the Board
is that your position? A If it were not true . Q All right. Isn't it for the Board to determine whether or not one report gave a false impression rather than the other? Isn't that the Board's duty? A The Board relies on us, the staff, to be able to make sure that information we bring to them is accurate and is factual. Q A Q Now, you understand that -I hope they do. --the present Board members have questioned your judgment, BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 \ 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 -25 some of them , both in the election and thereafter? You understand that
don't you? You don ' t understand that? A I understand it and that ' s fine . That ' s their opinion . Q Now , didn't they tell you that they wanted to get this information and that was after the e lection? Di dn ' t they tell you that . they wanted to find out what Dr . DeJarnette was actually saying be fore a court date was actually attended? A That ' s when we -- 67 Q And if they asked what i s the status and they wanted to get her view, as opposed to yours , is there some reason that you would disallow that? A It's not a view. It ' s a staff working together . It ' s many people making sure that the information provided is accurate . Not one person -- if the Board wants to believe one person then that ' s their opinion . Q That's right. But now the Board, if ,they had wanted to have Dr . Ed Williams' view , they could have asked for that
couldn ' t they? A I think they asked for that . Q Well, did they ask for that - - they asked for Dr . DeJarnette's view
didn ' t they? A The presentation should involve other members of the PRE staff . BY MR . HELLER : We're two hours into a 15 to 30 minute deposition BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537 - 5110 I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 - 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 now. BY MR. WALKER : Well, let me just sort of finish. BY MR . WALKER: Q You do acknowledge that it was within their prerogative to ask her any question they wanted to
isn't that correct? A Oh, sure . Q I see. And if they had asked the question were there two reports and she had said yes, there would have been no problem with that
isn't that correct? A Yeah . Q And if she had said that the matter had been edited and that it gives a false impression, there would have been nothing wrong with that, in her opinion? A In her opinion, yes . Q And then you would have been in a position -to state your contrary opinion to the Board
wouldn't you? A I think that happened . Q When have you stated your contrary opinion to the Board? A The revised repor~. Q The revised report? A Yes. Q So that's what you were saying to the Board at the time
right? A Yes. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I 69 Q Now, let me go on to some other things about you . Have you ever spoken to Dr. Victoria Burnhart , personally? A No. Q I see . So you ' re not aware of who she is or what she does? A I know she works with us . Q Do you know of any of her qua l ifications? A No . Q I see . You disagree with Dr . DeJarnette that the process of the school district has not been embedded into its assessment process? A Not I. Q I 'm asking about you . A No. Q Do you know anything about the portfolio ' s that were supposed to have been developed? A No. Q Were there any impediments that you knew of to implementing a data warehouse , any cost impediments to implementing that? A I 'm not aware of that . Q All right . Do you disagree that a data warehouse system is not now in place? A I think we have something in place . Q You have something . Would you call it a completed data warehouse? A To the extent practically, yes . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537 - 5110 I I I 1 - 2 3 I 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 ' 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 70 Q To the extent practically? A Yes. Q Are you aware that much of the information in one of these reports is based on false data? BY MR. HELLER : Object to the form of the question . BY MR . WALKER: Q Are you? A What report? Q The report submitted to the Court . The evaluation report . A We submitted a truthful report to the Court. Q Let me ask you : Did you have occasion in September and October to meet several times with Dr . Ed Williams outside of the presence of Dr . DeJarnette? A Perhaps, yes. Q Let me ask you now: Did you ever speak with Dr . Steven Ross regarding anything connected herewith? A No . Q Did Mr. John Ruffin have any role with respect to any of this? A Not that I know of. Q Did you ever speak with Mr. James Wohlleb? A Yeah, I've spoken with James before. Q Were you aware that Mr . Wohlleb and Dr. DeJarnette hired their own lawyers on or about November 3rd or before? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING ( 501 ) 537 - 5110 I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 71 A I know Dr . DeJarnette did . Q Did Dr . DeJarnette -- she's indicated that you said several things to her to express displeasure with her work performance . Did that happen before November 3rd? BY MR. HELLER: Object to the form. BY MR . WALKER : Q You can answer. A Dr. Roberts is the person that evaluates Dr. DeJarnette . Q I'm asking about you. Did you ever express displeasure with the work performance of Dr. DeJarnette? A I don't recall doing that, no, sir. Q All right. Now , have you ever given her a written evaluation before November of her work performance? A No, sir . Q Have you ever approved one? A Q No , sir. Have you ever seen one? A No, sir . Q Isn't it true that she was recommended for renewal at the end of the 2005-2006 school year? A Yes, sir. Q So that meant at that time that her work performance was satisfactory? A At that time, yes . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 ' ' ,1 1 - 2 3 I 4 5 I 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 72 Q All right. I take it you haven ' t had any direct discussions with Mr. Armstrong or any of the other Board members regarding your decision to remove her temporarily for her position
is that correct? A No . Q All right . Who is the present director of the department? A There is an interim director . Q Who is that person? A Dr. Ed Williams . Q Was that position posted before you put him in it? A I t ' s not a vacancy, sir. Q Was it posted? A It ' s not a vacancy . Q Was there another position in PRE posted upon his being placed as interim director? A Yes , sir . Q Who made the decision to post another position? A We did. Q Who is we? Did you make that decision? A Dr . Roberts, Mr . Hattabaugh, and, yes, I was involved. Q Was that a position for a statistician? A Yes, sir. Q Was that the position that Mr . Williams formerly held? A Yes, sir . Q Did you all make a judgement that there was a need for a BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537 - 5110 ~ -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 -25 73 second statistician? A Yes, sir. We wanted the department to have what they needed . Q So you wanted to have two statisticians in the department at this time? A We have three. Q All right. Let's assume that Dr . DeJarnette is reinstated . What happens to Dr . Williams? Does he go back to his former position? A We can't make a decision about that now . Q I see . But at this point it is intended that Dr . Williams will go back to his former position? A We haven ' t made a decision, sir . Q Is it his position that you all are advertising for to be filled? A It's the position he held , yes. Q I see . All right . BY MR. WALKER: I don't have any more questions. CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR . HELLER : Q Dr. Brooks, with respect to Exhibit 4, the letter to Dr. Mitchell from Dr . DeJarnette, it references an accompanying document . Was there an accompanying document? A Yes. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537 - 5110 ' I ' 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 \ Q A Q 74 Was that document called the Compliance History 2004-2006? I think so, yes. Okay. And were there things in the accompanying document to which you objected? A Yes, sir . Q Did Dr. DeJarnette have a grievance pending at the time on November 3rd, 2006? A Yes, sir. Q Did the submission of the letter, which is Exhibit 4, and the accompanying document violate the district's policy with respect to processing grievances? A Yes, it did, sir. Q Okay. BY MR: HELLER: That's all I have . BY MR. WALKER: I want to make sure I have not gone into her grievance. I'm not representing her and I don't have any questions about her grievan~e and I didn't ask any questions about it. I don't have any questions . WHEREUPON, the deposition of Mr . Brooks concluded at 12 : 05 p.m . , December 13th, 2006. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537 -5 110 I 75 C E R T I F I C A T E STATE OF ARKANSAS , )ss COUNTY OF LONOKE I, KELLY S. ADCOCK, Certified Court Reporter and Notary Public, do hereby certify that the facts stated by me in the caption on the foregoing proceedings are true
and that the foregoing proceedings were recorded verbatim through the use of the Stenomask and thereafter transcribed by me or under my direct supervision to the best of my ability, taken at the time and place set out on the caption hereto. I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither counsel for , related to , nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which these proceedings were taken
and further , that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties hereto, nor financially interested, or otherwise, in the outcome of this action. WITNESS MY HAND AND SEAL this 17th day of December 2006 . KELLY S . DCOC~ Certified Court Reporter #643 My Commission Expires : 04 / 15 / 14 BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-511 0
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<dcterms_creator>Bushman Court Reporting</dcterms_creator>