Deposition taken at Wright, Lindsey and Jennings, Little Rock, Arkansas
Little Rock School District, plaintiff vs. Pulaski County Special School District, defendant
This transcript was created using Optical Character Recognition and may contain some errors.
Ll'I'lLE Ct {-1 vs. OCK SCHCOL D1S'!flC~, PltdntlffE LR-c-e~-66 * PULASKI CCtlNJ. SPECIAL SC COL DISTBICT 0. l, ct * UNITED S'IATES DIS'IRICT COUF 1t * EAS1ER DISTPICT CF AFRANSAS D f ncantc WESTEF OIVlSlO MFS. LCP-ENE JCSHUI,, ct ~l. * nt tVEnorr
* Y..A'IHHU E KNIGHT, t t tl. lnt:1:venorE, * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * TUE OAAL DEPOSITlC' OF JlM BUFGETT APPEARANCES: Z..B. SAMUEL JONES, III, E .... c._., Wn t.t, Lincl ... ey 6 Jcnningc, 20CD Wcrthen Bank Buildjng, ~co west Ccpitol Avenue, L1ttl ~eek, AtkBnE&C 7~2Cl Z..ESSRS. JO NW. WALKER & NARI< DUFNf/l.'TE, Et
E., 1723 Bt:0.dwc.y, Littl!' lxCick, Atk,,ntu: 7,
c6 ALSO PFiESEN'I': rm. BOBBY LES'JER, Supu intt.nclc.r,t * * * * * * * BUSfW.AN CCUF.T FEPOf'IING, INC. 201 Etst Sixth Stieet Little Beck, Atkc.nr&& 7,~c2 ( ! 01> zn-~11s 'IHE C~AL DEPOSlTlCN CF JU. BUFGE'lT, , wj tnU, pru:tUCEC c:t the re~uiet cf the Int rvenort, t~kcn in the ~bcvc-Ltylca ,no nu~berca c~use on the ~!th a~y cf June, lS2, bcfort Jeff Bennett, CC, LS tl9, a Nct,ry Public in tnd fer White County, Arkt:nsu
, t Wright, Lindsey & JEnn nst, aco Wottl'ien Btnk Bujl61n9, Litll~ Beck, AtkEnStE, rt !:20 p.fu. pur~u~nt tc the S'Il PULJ\'I IC't'S IT IS S'IIPULATED AND AGREED by Hid bet EErl the p~rtic:t thtough their reEpectiv~ c~uns~l thtt the 6 pcsiticn cf JlM BUF.GETT mt.y be tiken Lt the tlnic ~nd pl E.Ce !er the purpu
cE. of di~ccvc1y, pure ~nt to the Fea1r1l toles ~f Civil Pr~ccdurc, and thc:.t .11 forir.~lHiu with reg,ac to the t.iking of st.id depccition ire r,u.Eby \v~ivcil including ptu:er.t,ticn, tt!t,ding, subscription by thE: witneu,, nctic~ of filing, tHing, C:lc.
u.a tht ~ll objecticn st le rEl V6ncy, mct~,lelity, ,ne competency so of!tted ,t the trlCl ot thjr C~S(. the \t.ilnccs heieinbEfc,re n,meci, being first cluly ci.uticnE:<l cr,d swotn, er eftirKed, to tell tte truth, tle wt~lc truth, ~na nothing but the truth, teEt1f1ed &s fellow: BUSIW:.AN COUR'I f.EPCF('J n:G, INC. 201 East Sixth Str~ct Little Fock, r~rk~r.~es 7ViC2 (!.01) ~72-~115 1 2 .., .:> 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 - 3 MR. JONES: I woula ~ake the some nototicn that I aid 1n Mr. Matthews' deposition. irn. WALKER: That'E fine . EXAMINAT::iCN BY MR. WALKER: Q. What i your n~rne, please? A. Jim Burgett. Q. Are you a member of the Board of Pulaski County? A. Yes, I am. Q. Mr. Bursett, ar you f~mjl1~r with the proposed budget cuts? A. Which ones? Q. Tht.t were c.ooptea on March 17? A. I recollect, list of those, yes, sir. Q. You're &lso familiEr with the reorgtnization plan that goes with it? A. Yee. Q. It has been suggested by einother Boc:.10 member that you m6y have been one of the persons to propose budget cuts and the reorganjzation, that you rooy have been one of the persons on the Board that arguea strongest for the budget cuts and the proposed reorgonization
would that be a fair statement? A. I dont know about any other Board members. Q. I see. A. If you want to ask me directly about tbet I ctin answer you. BUSH~!AN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 Q. Did you hvve a rnejcr role in proposing the budget cuts? A. I don't know if I had a major role, but I did argue strongly for them, yes. Q. Do you know any Board member who in your presence a1guea rnor strongly than you for them? A. All I can say is that on different items there was st1ong feelings about one ~na not so strong feeljng~ on another. Fer example, I would say when it came to athletics and extre curricular activities I argued very strongly a91nst those, whereas I djdn't argue as strong against others. Q. I'm asking you now about the concept of budget cuts to begin with. Were you the pe1Son saying before the budget cuts were undertaken in March of 1S92, were you the person who argued for what you may call fiscal responsibility in the form of the budget cuts before the millage was submitted? A. Yeah, I think th~t would be a fajr Et~tement. Q. Now, what was jt that you were trying to accompliEh by the budget cuts? A. Whet WGE it I was trying tc accomplish? Q. What did you ~rgue that you would accomplish by reducing thE budget from one year to the next, what was it you were accomplishing? A. It was my impression from our business mGn&9er that we didn't have enough money to operate for the next school yEsr, and thst without r~ducing the budget and saving some money thet BUSHMAN COURT FEPOR'lING, INC. ( 501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 li 16 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 we wouldn 1 t be able to operate. It's as simple as that. Q. I see. Dia he tell you th6t that would be amelioretEd at all in the event that the millage passed? A. He didn't put it that way. He said that, as far as I can recell, thGt just because we passed the millage didn't mean that we'd be out of the woodE entirely. That we had a greGt deal more work to do in the long run. Q. Did he tell you how far out of the woods you would come by the millage prssing? A. I don't recall right off-band how far. Q. Did he give you a written ststerncnt of how far you would come with the millage passing before you undertook to cut the budget? A. No, I don't believe we did that. I believe we looked ~t budget cuts before we oiscussea it. Q. Since the millage has pas~ed, do you know wh~t the irnp~ct the rnill~ge passing will have upon the projected buaget cuts? A. I can't say thtt in any detail, because I have been unQble to ettend the ltst two Boarc meeting. Q. Is there~ reoon you cculan't attend the l~st two meetings? A. Q. A. Q. Yes, sir, of cours the1e's been a re~son. What 1s the re~son? The f1rst reason w,s I had my sall bladder cut. So you were ill? BUSW:AN COURT REPORTING, INC. (5Cl) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 1E lS 20 21 22 22 25 6 A. Yes. Q. Whet w,s the second reason? A. The second I w~s out-of-state. Q. I didn't mean to offena you ana meke you upset. A. You didn 1 t. I would heve a reason. I've ettended evry other Board meeting since I wos elected. Q. I just wante.d to know what the re,son was. You voted on each one of these items one-by-one th,t wre recommended by Mr. Lester? A. Yes, WE did. Q. Diel you also make some. recommended buciget cuts of your own, did you mak some p1oposea cuts yourself? A. As part of the workshop thot we did over a year ego, I submitted a list of things, yes. Q. Did ,ny of those things that you suggested coree within thSs list cf 27? A. May I see that? (Witness viewing document.) Yes, I believe some of these were on my list. Q. A. Which one.s were on your list? I hate to say exactly which onN: were on my list without n,y list being here. Q. A. Q. A. Do you hEve your list? Do I h~V 0 list? YS. I'm sure jt's in my records ~thorn~. BUSfil:AN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372.-51]5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 - 7 Q. Did you ever make that a part of the aistrict's records? A. Yes, I did. It was a tot,l th0l we all submitted. So I know they bad a copy of it, because it was in a packet, I'm sure. Q. Did you recommend that the desegregc,tion office be reorganized? A. I didn't recommend that, sir. I believe thc.1t my recommendation that I suppo1.te:d was to reorgt.niz1: the central administration staff, and that WE employ a professional to do that and put that off on him to do. Q. Did you employ a professional to de that? A. Yes, we have employed a professional. And th~t's Mr. Lester. Q. Did you u:commend the reduction in the number of alpha pos1tions which is item lC before you? A. I believe I supported that, yes. Q. Did you recommend it? A. Recommend it, no, sir, I didn't. Q. Did you reconm.end B reduction in the number of coordinators? A. I dont believe that was one of mine, no. Q. Did you reccmffiend a reduction in all out of district tr~vel? A. Let roe cl~rify scn,ething here. Are wt tolking about c.S of the BoQrd meeting where we did these cuts, or ere you talking BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-::115 1 2 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 10 19 20 21 23 24 25 8 obout my or1ginal list? Q. I'm saying as of the time preceding Merch 17, 1992, in thet intense period when you all were trying to reorganize in order to decide to submit a mill&ge to the people. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. I understond. Which one did you ask ~e about? Out of district travel. Yes, I supported that. Is that one of your recommendations? That's one that I supported, yes. Why would you recommend cutting out all out of distrjct trc::vel? A. Because I felt that out of district trevel was something that we could sEve money on. It wes not a necessary expnse. Q. Did you h~ve an idea of what the out of distr1ct travel was in the past used for? A. Q, for? A. Q. A. I think so. What is your understand1ng of what that travel wes used You mean for Board rr.embers? Thit says all out of district trovel. Most of the out of district trovel that I am awere of 1s done for professionol reascn6. Q. I understand. You wanted it all cut out. So what w~s the reason that you wanted out of 6istrict trevel for staff members cut out? BUSHr.AN CCURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-E.llE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 H 15 16 17 ]6 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. That's the only reeson? A. I would rather have tht cut out then have the reeding program cut. Q. Let me ask you this. Dia you perceive thot the out of district travel w~s for the purpose of obteining further trajning for the steff development? A. I'm sure thel everyone who trevels toe professionzl meeting c,n gt.thet -- you come c.Wi.Y with something. Q. Do you knew whether the desegregation plan commits the district to st,ff development? A. I'm sure the desegregation plan does commit the district to staff development. Q. Befot e you voted upon this particular 1 tem, a 1d you esk Mr. Lester what effect this cutting out all out of district travel would have upon the desegregation plan? A. Mr. Welker, I don't believe I c:sktd Mr. Lester any spec1fic item that way. I believe that whet I did ask w~s th,t how would all these things go together. How could they be taken care of in relation to the desegregation plan. Q. Did you do that in a public meeting or in executive sessjon? A. I don't remember whether I've done it in a public meeting or not. I haven't discussed it in executive sersion with him. I have discussed it one-on-one in his office. BUSHMAN COUR'I REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 1.S 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 n 10 Q. Wes e.ny other Board men,ber preEent when you a iscussec it with hlm in hlE office? Q. Now, have you reao the des gregation plan? A. Well, I've tried to get through the whole thing, yes, sir. I heve over the years. Q. Over the years? A. Yes. Q. H&ve you read the desegregetJon plan since it WES fine.lly approved by Judge Wright? A. Yes, I h~ve gotten through that. Q. Do you knew whot the district's ccmmitment is tc staff development in that plan? A. Specifically? Q. Yes. A. No, I cannot recoll that right off-hena. Q. Do you have a staff development officer here on your staff? A. Yes, we ao, A. Mr. Jim Herring, I believe. Q. Mr. Jim Herring has a staff of how rr.any people? A. Two or three, I woulo think. I don't know. Q. And how many staff members do you ell have in the district? A. How many stdf members do we have in the district? Q. Yes, sir. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-~115 1 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 12 14 15 16 17 1E 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. We're telking about teachers and Yes. Whoever you call st~ff. Somewhere between 13 ana 1,500. 11 So Mr. Herring ana his two staff member ~re responsible for the staff development for a whole year for these 1,500 people? A. I guess he js, Q. Now, are they supposed to -- tell me what his office does? Just tell me what he does in steff dEvelcprnent to your knowlEdge? A. Well, to rr.y knowledge he has developed plans for cl,sses that ore held and are taught, thet teachers ana administrators cen take to upgrade their skills and be higher on the pay scale. we have varjous people who -- teachers and coordinators who teach those, administrators who teach those. Coordinates the well, I know I was involved with him this year on the Site-Based Sh~re Decision Making Commjttee amongst othe1 things. Q. Well, now, ao you find any incongruity in him conducting staff development for those purposes and his not de.veloping or heving staff development fer aesegregatj.on purposeE? MR. JONES: He never said he didn't have staff development for desegregation. Q. All right. Well, let me ask you this. You're sayJng th,t one of the reasons that he conducts sttff development is to afford people an opportunity to get pay raises by, cf course, BUSr~lAN COURT REPORTING, INC. ( 501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 6 7 e 9 10 11 12 13 14. 15 16 17 16 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. 12 That's: dght. Do you fine any congruity 1n trying to find ways to get ycur st&ff rnerebers highet up en the pay reiwe at a tirn when you're trying to cut cos:tE? A. No, I acn't. Q. I see. So you're trying to give these teachers s many raises as poEsible while you're trying to have budget cuts? A. No, sir. I didn't s&y tht. Is id tht people are trying to raise their skills profeEEionally as well as be on th pay scale. I me,m Q. Tell me, ao you knew Mt. Don Stewart? A. Yes, sir. Q. Can you tell me why Mr. Den Stewart would be in one of these classes? A. Q. A. To be in one of them? Yes. I didn't know he was in one of them. I know he teaches one, or maybe more than one. I hcven't read the curriculum. Q. I see. All right. Is it your position that Mt. Stewart is not trying to -- is not in one cf these classes as~ student trying to obtain higher pay himself? A. I wouldn't know about that. I don't know if it applies to him at that level. Q. okay. I'm trying to find out just e little bit about thiE BUSHMAN COURT REPORTIKG, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 6 9 10 11 12 J 3 14 15 J6 17 18 lS 20 21 22 23 24 25 st~ff devlopmnt. Do you have anybody who is primarily responsible for desegregation staff development? A. I would presume that would come und~r his office. Q. Have you ever asked Mr. Lester whether it did? A. No, I did not. 13 Q. Do you know what the rc:.ce of the pE:rsons who work with him, the other two perscns, is? A. I think they' le one iE blEck and one is white. Q. What's the name of the black person that works with him? A. Is that Brenda. I don't know. Q. You don't know? A. I don't know. Q. You thought it was Brenda Spriggs? A. Yes. Q. I thought she was in multicultural educ6t1on, and there was a special position, somewhat over my objection, cre~ted for her as a directive of thot? MR. LESTER: I've been trying to stay out of this. But Mary Mcclendon 1s a black lady i~ under him, coordinator, and Brenda Spriggs is multicultur~l. MF. JONES: And you didn't object to it. Q. And Ms. Mcclendon h~s no expertise in oescgregetion st~ff development, h~s she? A. 1 don't know. Q. Okay. Is Ms. McClenaon the ltdy who used tc be a BUSIW.J\N COURT FEPOR~ING, INC. <!i0l) 3n-s115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1 'i 1 19 20 21 22 vice-principal out at -I don't know. Q. A. Q. -- the Air BaEe Elementary School? I don't know. Okay. 14 MR. JONES: I thought you wanted to ~sk about budget cuts. MR. WALKER: I em. I'm just trying to find out what this man knows about what he was acing. Q. (BY MR. WALKER) You did rEcommEnd that some teacher positions be eliminated, didn't you? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. In the lest budget cuts? Yes. Yes. How many d1a you recomrnena be el jminE.tea? Oh, gosh. I'm esking about your recommendation now, not whet action you took. But hew rn~ny did you recommend be cut? A. Q. A. Q. I don't know exactly. Did you reco1r.me:na thet " number of cooraint.tors be cut? I supportecl thst recommendcit :ion. Woula this have a tendency -- well, first of ~11, were the ccordin~tors necesssry in the first place? A. Are you asking me pexscnelly wh6t I think about ccordinE.tors? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 272-fll: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ll 1~ 13 14 1~ 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 ~4 25 I - 15 Q. Yes. A. Yeah, I think personally th&t coordinators are necessary. I sure ao. Q. Now, by cutting them out, does that diminish the quality of the course offerings? A. I would say th&t the -- Q. Listen to my question. Does th&t diminish the quality of the course offerings in the programs which they c0ordinttea ana participated in? A. If the teachers themselves took up the sl6ck, I don't think it would diminish the quality of the course offerings. I don't know why the course offerings would be dependent on the coordinators being there. Q. I see. So ifi the teachers took up the slack. How would the teachers take up the sl~ck? How could the teachers take up the slack? A. Well, basically to keep on doing the same thing thet they're alr ady doing. Q. I see. So they would be ooing the sarre things that they were doing without 6irection and ccoperation and Eupporl of the ,dministt&tive staff of the centr&l office to the same extent as A. To the same extent, th6t's correct. Q. so this re6lly will dim1niEh the qu&lity of the progrms and evaluation and other things r.ext year -- BUSHMAN COUR'I REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 l 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 22 24 16 A. I can't say that for sure, Mr. Welker, whEther it would diminish it or not. Q. A. Q. A. Q. I see. Are you a former educotor? Yes. Whet is your field? I was a band director, sir. Now, you dJd understand as a teacher that one reason for getting speci~l treining, or having coordinators, or directors was to strenghten the quality of thE progrsms that those persons supervised or coordinated? A. Yes, I co. Q. So would it not be logic~l that jf you intend to strenghten the progr~rns by adding specialty persons to them, that you would correspondingly weaken programs by taking people oway from those programs
isn't that lcgicel? A. Well, I would disagree with that somewhat. Because, whilE not maybe progressing os much and having that ability to take from the coordinators those things which they can do, that dcetn't necessarily mean that what you 1ve tlready eccoropljshed is going to dimlniEh. I woula say it wouldn't grow. Q. I see. Aren't you ccmroitted to having a program, ot l~ast e desegregation prcgrare, which 1s at least as eff~ctive in the future ~sit has been 1n the psst? A. Q. I would hope so, yes, sir. And if you cut out statf, don't you diminish the ability cf BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 -C: 6 7 e 9 10 ll 12 13 14 l~ 16 17 1 19 20 21 22 23 24 2-5 - 17 the d1strict to m~int,in at least grcwth in the continuum cf educational progress from year to yer thit you hao prcmiEed the ccUJ: t tbot you would be implen,enting? A. My problEm as a Boara member lE making a chcice. I was net the one who decided to put the ccordinators on the blcck. Q. No, listen to my question. A. I unoerstana your question. Q. I'm asking just about the effect. I'm not asking about you as a Board merob~r in charge. In terms of the effect, you understand that you've indicatea to the court that these programs sre working, and that they will work, and that they will work in part because you have these staff members in place. Now, when you say that you h~ve them in place, de ycu not thereby represent to the court th,t yo~1c going to keep thefu in place? A. Not necessarily. Q. All right. Now, you ao recall that there has been some problm with the court, and you're saying that you Ell put things in your plan that you dian't necessarily rne~n or need. I mean, bow are you going to go -- and I'm being very explicit. How ere you gojng to -- and I'm surE that that is th case, don't misunderste.na me. This is a deposition, so I can say that. But how are you going to let your lawyer get in a position where he hes to defend that position one more time? A. Which position are you talking about? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 l 2 -:, ~ 4 ~ 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 16 19 2C 21 22 23 24 25 H, Q. Which is that you put things in & program, in other words, you presented things to the court that you didn't necess&rjly need? A. Th&t we necesssrily didn't need? Q. That you didn't necess&rily need and, therefore, you coulo re.duce them without sny impi.ct upon the dee:egregation plan? MR. JONES: I object to the form of the question. I don't think we've ever Eaia that we put things in the plan that we didn't need as a district. I have said there were things in the. plan that weren't directly relate.a to desegregation, th&t certain jobs were described fut re~sons I never fully understood. If tliet helps any. I don't think I ever said these people weren't needed, John. MR. JONES: And, of course., this w1tne.ss h0sn't indicated he relished making any of these cuts. A. To the contrary. (Off-the-record.) Q. were any of these coordinators th~t were cut jnvolvea in either gifted and talented educ~t1on, or guidance and counseling Eervices, or the Division of Instruction? A. I thought ,11 of them were patt of the divlsion of instruction. instruction. MR. JONES: Everybody you just named falls under BUSH.MAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (50]) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 C 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 1 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 19 ~R. WALKER: I thought so. Q. (BY MR. WALKER) Now, there were -- in the pl~n there's &n ind1c&tion that s&id, "CCffipleting the stEff of the Division of Instruction are six secondBry curriculum coordinators representing the verious disciplines." Have these persons been cut by this pl&n? A. Would y-0u re&d that st-tement agaJn, please? Q. "Completing the st&ff of the Division of Instruction ere six secondary curriculum coordln&tors representing the var3ous disciplines." Have those persons been cut or will those persons b cut? A. I think some of those persons have been cut, probably not all cf them. I know we retained mvth and science. Q. This is on p&ge 22 cf the pl&n. "It 1s not enough to be concerned only the pupil assignment plans that in~ure segreg&ted schools. To be effective, the instructional progr&m must respond to the educution&l and sociQl needs of all students." Now, it goes on to say, "Elementc.ry teachers are ai
sisted by assistant principal/instructionel specialist and $condcry teachers receive aid from jnstructional curriculum coordinators. The presence of these resource people help the clesErcoffi teacher to meet the diverse needE of students in desegregcted clu
srooms." Now, why would you, after just put ting something in and having the court approve it right before this happ~ned, why BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (5Cl) 272-!,115 l 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 s 10 11 12 1::, 14 15 16 17 )6 19 20 a 22 23 24 25 ,e 20 woula you cut them out? A. Well, actually I just followed the recommenaat ons thtt we get from our professionil. Q. But now, you all were pressuring the profesEionels to come up with the budget cuts of the. Boc:.ro, weren't you? I mean, they weren't operating in a vacuum? A. I don't think it was just the fact that we were pressuting anybcdy. we were all under ptessure to get something done. The end of the schocl year was rBpidly approaching. Many things were happening. We were trying to get our mHl,ge through. My point is that only very reluctantly, Mr. Walker, did I support these. Q. All right. Now, in this it is cltar that you represented to the court that you would have these coorc11n~tors. At least, that's the way I read it on pages 23 and 24. Did you reaa -did you all consioer this plan, and especjally pages 23 ana ~4, before you made the decision lo cut these ccorc1inotots? A. I think that that was probebly mentioned, yes, s1r. Q. All right. A. But we didn't know whether it would work or not. Q. You knew, if you mention something, just to mention it doesn't mean anything. Did you aEEEES it? Did you &SSCEE th impact of it in the light of the ccmrnitme.nts that you hid mz.de to the court? A. I think that we left that up to the superintendent to BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-511~ 1 ,"t, 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 lO 11 ]2 13 14 ]5 16 17 1 19 20 n 22 23 24 25 recommend to us. Q. So you're putting this bee bock on the bock of the superintendent? A. Right. 21 Q. All right. Well, I want you to know th~t I'm going to be not UEing -- relying so much on the superintendent this time es I am on you Boara members to justify these things. A. Well, fine. Q. And 1 woula like for you tc tell me whether you have any other rEEEon, other than prcjectea ccst savings, for knocking out something that had be.en included in the aesegregatlon pl,n, other than the cost sc:.vings? A. Other than the cost savings? Q. Yes, sir. A. I don't think there was any. Q. All right. Now, you were ,wtre thEt. the court hc:.s t 1a you repeetedly that. financial considerationc c~nnot be uEed to oirr.inist. the 6e.~ gresc:.tion ccrr.mitme.nt~ rn this dHtuct? Q. I see. Well, why would you do something thot was contrary to your cesegre9c:t1on p1osrarr, or comrr.itroc.nt. .. ? A. Well, at this point in time I'n. not sure that it wos. Q. Well, you say -- you understond how the ccurt ch~st1sed us obout being lDte in the proposals, ~nd bow she insisted on us getting things in, ~nd then how she took tim to study BUSHMAN COURT :REPORTING, INC. (5Cl) 27Z-5ll5 1 3 4 5 6 7 s 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 23 24 25 22 everything, ana then bow she approvea thiE, I think, the early port of thiE year. Do you think that she would go through all of this, ano we would go through ell of this, if these wordE meant nothing? A. Q. Well, I don't th1nk tb~t we think th~t they megn nothing. Well, why is it that you're going to cut out these coord1noto1s if you've ccmroitteo to the. ccurt to ht.ve them? A. Q. Well, whet elEe were we going tc cut cut. well, th~ts not for rr.e to say. rm just saying now why did you -- . JONES: Well, I mean, I know 1ttE not your deposition, but it's & question we all wonder ebcut. You know, what elEe would we do? Q. Well A. I mean, I'm faced with a cho1ce. I either vote for this or don't vote for it. Q. Well, you -- let me ask you this. Did you vote to give were you preeent when the vote weE taken tc give Mr. GoEE' wjfe A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. No, I Wc.S not. Did you ,ppr ove that? Do you eppr eve of it? I was not thre. Did you apprcve it? I don't know wht the circumstnces on tht rais ~r. Wll, you h d 11 the backup a,ta from the Bo~rd -- from BUSHMAN COURT REPOR'l'ING, INC. (5.Cl) 272-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 23 Mr. Lester, djdn't you? He gave you the backup datt, didn't he? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. It 'E probably in my p"cket. You haven't read it? I haven't read that portion of it, because 1 Wc.En't there. You and Mr. Gess &re friends, tren't you? Friends? Perscnel friends? No. You tren't? We're just acguaintanceE. Okc.y. You ana he have not hc.d E discussjon tbout that subject st all? A. Q. A. No, Slt. Okay. Absolutely not. As E rec.ttet of fact, when it firEt come up he recused hims~lt, he wasn't even tround the Board. Q. A. Q. Why would he vote on it when it came up the lc:.st tiree? Well, I don't knew. I wtsn't here. Do ya'll have e policy that matterE affecting a family member are acteo upon, thc.t the person in the fan:Hy who's on the Beare should recuse themself? A. one. Q. A. I don't recall reading thtt specific policy, if there is Do you hc:.ve a nepotiEm policy? I believe there 1s one, yes, sir. BUSHrl.AN COUtT REPORTING, INC. (~Cl) 372-~115 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 1 19 20 21 22 2-:- 24 24 Q. What's difference in what I just asked the first time and what I asked in te1ms of the nepotism policy? A. I think it w~s a place where there wcs employment involvea, two teacherE, or one teacher w~snt to be eroplcyed at a schcol where another one wE.s mployea or e1E a supervisor. Where one would have supervisory consideration over the other. Q. Have you seen any document thjs yEar shewing the progress that the oit.tlict hes mace toward meeting the district 1 s desegregation go~ls and objectives? A. Any? Q. Have you seen a document which is an &nalysis of the progress being made toward achieving the ditrict's desegregaticn -- A. Q. A. Q. We received one from Mr. Bowles, I believe. When did you get that? I think it wis tometin.e t.fter Janu"ry. Now, ao you con1der it to be, change in the pl~n to combine the Office cf Pupil Personnel a~6 the Office of Desegregat1cn? A. Do I consider it a change in the plan? Q. Yes. A. Ne. Q. would you m1na looking et this organiz~tion chart that you presented to th~ court? A. (Witness viewing document.) BUS!Wi.AN COURT REPORTING, INC. (~CJ) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 r: ~ 6 7 6 9 10 11 12 13 14 lS 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ~-i:: "-~ 25 MR. JONES: We'll stipulete the chirt chnges. MR. WALKER: That's what I 'n. showing you. Q. (BY MR. WALKER) Leck at that, plecse? Now, on this chart that was presentea to the court the desegreg~ticn projection was off to the Eide and directly related to the superintendent. And the only section that related to every department wes the desegregation cffjce, other than the superjntendcnt's office, of course. And new you've put desegregation and pupjl personnel together. Does that represent a functional change? A. Well, I'm not sure -- I understand whEt you're driving at. I see htre a direct line between the superintendent and pupil personnel and desegregation, and I see ljnes of consultation and cooperation between the schools ano personnel and instruction and business affajrs and support services. Now -- Q. Well, you're saying here that it's pretty eviaent that the Pupil Personnel Department had no direct supervis1on over anybody in the first place. So by combining those two departments, nothing w~s changed
is that right? A. You mean, we're talking about sol1a lines new of airect authority? Q. Yes, solio lines. A. Well, no, they don't. Q. Okay. Now, tell me, why was it neceE-sary to reduce the number of asE.ist superintendents
was that for financial retsons or what other reason? BUSH~AN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-Ell!: 1 3 4 6 i e 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2(
A. I think it wo~ tin~nciel re~scns. Q. How much money did you seve -- well, let n.e get some understanaing of that. W know that you h&ve bss1c&lly net cut anybody out of Mr. Collins' department
isn't thet correct? All the people are still there? A. A fr as I know. Q. All are still there. So thst means they're all there with the SQroe sal~ry except for the 8 percent rcducticn in the raise propcrt1on of Mr. Collins' s~lary? A. Right. Q. All right. And we know that sll the people in Mr. Bow lei:' office ere still there. And the only thing that's htppened is that Mr. Bowles has suffered er had a reauction of 8 percent of the raise that he got. So are we to believe th&t the only sav1n9s to be effectuated is 8 percent of two 13 percent raises? ~R. JONES: I object to th6 form ct the question. It ignores the elimination of, I think, two directors' positions, at l~ost one, Director of Athletic& "na Director of Activities . MR. WALKER: Are those under the Pupil Personnel Dep"rtment? MR. JONES: I think both of them were. Q. (BY MR. WALKER) All right. Now, those persont who -- the Directer of Athletics and the Director of what else, whatever it is, those people dia not suffer p~y decreases, though, did they? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC, ( 501) 372-51J 5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Jl 12 13 14 15 16 17 16 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. I don't know whre they would fall. Q. Who were those people? 27 A. The Director of Athletics was Ron Higgins, Whet the other director? MR. JONES: That's all. Q. All right. Is Mr. Higgins still working for the district? A. As far .as I know he is going to be. Q. Has he had a p~y reauction for this ye~r, for this next ye~r over last year? A. I aon't know what his pay is going to be. It depends on what his job is, I would presume. Q. Well, so we have e pay reduction for Mr. Higgins, possibly, and Mr. Collins has a pay reductJon of approximately $4,500, and Mr. Bowles has~ pay reduction of approximately $2,9C0. MR. JONES: If the newspapEr article is accurate, and I'm not going to stipulate that a newspape1 article is accurate. Q. Do you h~ve any reason to believe thmt Mr. Bowles is well, let roe say something. If Mr. Lestr says that it's 8 percent, the aifference is S percent of a pay raice MR. JONES: 8 percentage points. Q. percentoge points of the pay rajse of 13 percent -- MR. JONES: Right. Q. -- that roeQns then that if Mr. Collins wa~ making $64,500 l~st year, I'll figure that out. B percent of the ra1se that he BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. ( 501) '.:72-5115 ] 2 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 le 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 28 got -- MR. JONES: Not 8 percent, about 70 percent. Q. 70 percent cf the roise th~t he got would be appro~imotely $4,000. So I E.ssume thc.t he h~o a reduction of $4,00C, and Mr. Bowles had c: reduction of $3,000, and let's E.Ssume thcit r. Higgins h~d one Else cf $3,000. Th1s is $10,000 reduction or sevings. And ere you oll s~ying thE.t E.t least for the Desegregation Deportment c.nd the Pupil Personnel Dep,rtment, thal sc.vings is significant? A. Q. Well, I think c.nything that we can save was significant. But you're going to reduce the status of the desegregation office in the process, are yoti not? A, I don't know what your definition of st~tus is. Q. Well, you comffiitted to the court that there woulo be an assistant superintendent for desegregation. MR. JONES: There still is. Q. You said that there was an assistant superjntendent for desegregation, and you said that there will be ,n assistant superintendent for pupil personnel. MR, JONES: There still is. It happens to be teh same person. Q. If you're going to ao those things, why don't you tell the court th1t you're going to combine -- or propoEe to combine the positions and put ~11 the responsibility in one person? A, Why don't -- BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC, (501) 372-511= 1 .... ~ 3 4 5 6 7 e 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 ~4 25 29 Q. Why didn't you tell the court you were going to do this before you actually did it? A. I think all of the cuts thQt were mace end all the changes that were made and approved by our School Board were made with the idea that all of them would be meae as far as the court would allow. And at the time thQt we were making decisions, wc didn't know which tbjngs that the court would allow and would not ~llow. Q. Have you voted as a Board to ask the court to allow these cuts in a formal rEsolution? A. In a formal resolution? Q. Yes, sir. A. Not th~t I recall. Q. This was done in M rch? A. These were, yes. Q. Why haven't you for~ed why haven't you t~ken up the matter by resolution or motion since March to submit it to the court? A. I don 1 t know that it hasn't been proposed. I haven't been there. Q. I see. Now, is there any particular reason that you all did not -- well, first of all, did you 11 diECUES these budget cuts before you made them with the Joshua Intervcnors? A. I personally didn't discuss it with the -- Q. Dia the Board do so? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (:Cl) 372-511~ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 lE 19 21 22 23 24 30 A. Not es i Bo~ra. But I think we hed rngny opportunities for anybody to come
workshops, and budget meetings, and -- Q. So you ere putting us in the position of eny member of the public when it comes to participeting in decisions and deliberations of the Board
is th&t correct? A. Q. A. As any member of the public? Yes. Well, I don't know what I'm -- I'm not trying to put you in any position. Q. Are you aware that the Joshua Intervenors have special status as a result of this Settlement Agreement? A. Oh, yes. Q. Have you all ever sought to involve us, you as a Board, ever sought to involve us in any decision meking cf th school district before the decisions were mode? A. As fer as I know th t we rely on our profeEsionol staff to tell us when nd if that's needed. I don't have direct crder, that I know of, to do that. MR. JONES: I mean, John, I cen't imogine your going to court next Thursday and representing thEt thiE was all a secret to you. MR. WALKER: We're not talking about secret. I would certainly fe~l that if they're tElking about doing somethjng, befcrc they do 1t, o sit down, cs we ,gr ea, and go ever the desegregEt1on tE~ifications cf it End try to reach En BUSHliAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (~Cl) 272-~115 1 2 2 4 ."..', 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 l!: 16 17 1 19 20 21 22 23 :24 2!.: - 31 agreement, and then make a joint recornrnndaticn to the court fer approval instead of putting us in an aover~etial situation. Q. (BY MR. WALKER) Now, did you conEider the desegregation impact formelly in a public Board :meeting of c
:ny e,f these particular items in Exhibit Number 1? A. As far as any one of these 27 things, I don't believe any of them were ever taken up in a public Board meeting specifically with the quection of the desegregation impact in mind for each one of them. A. I do know that in my own mind th0t all of the :impacts were there. Q. Well, what is the desegregation impact of item number 10, "The alpha positions, fivfc-day stude
nt load," whctever that meanc, in your own mind? A. Well, that means that there was less lime for the alphg teachers to teech, and they had to teach regular clEEses. Q. Does not this say th6t five alpha -- no, that ~lpha positions, , number of alpha positions Qre being cut out? A. I dcn 1 t know that thic says that they're being cut out. I think those teachers re being reassigned to regular classes rather than be tEken away. Q. Well, how did you save onything by re ssigning these teachers tc regular cl~sses
where is the savings? A. In teach rs needed over,11. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (!:Cl) 37:2-~11~ l 2 3 4 6 7 8 s 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 1 19 20 21 22 23 24 32 Q. So you won't neea as many teachers? A. That's the same thing, if I might add, about Mr. Higgins being removed from the directorship that he was remcvea of and being placed somewhe~e el~e and that position not be1n9 ref illea. MR. WALKER: While I 1m at it, Ssm, would you asking -- bringing Mr. Higgins to court? Do I need E< subpoena for that purpose? Q. MR. JONES: I don't have e clue. MR. WALKER: Okay. (BY MR. WALKER) Now, are you saying that you didn't elimjnLte these positions and
therefore, nothing has changed from last year to this next year? A. Well, obviously, jf we're going to have a $90,000 savings, something has changed. Mr. Lester, perhaps you could -- Q. Well, no. You're going to have to take thE stand yourself, not Mr. Lester. Mr. Lester will have his turn. I wsnt you to tell me A. Well, I can't at thiE time. Q. All right. Well, tell me, what is the dsegregst1 n 1mpc.ct of having -- let me b~ck up. Isn't it true that the Boera b,s sought to relate to desegreg~ting th schools in the southe~st quaaront in p~rt by having TAG type clQsseE concentr~ted there more sc than other parts of the district? A. H~ve we sought to do what? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-115 l 2 ...,, 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 .2 0 21 22 23 24 .33 Q. To desegreg"te s.ome of the so-celled ht.rd to dcegregete schools in the southeast quadrant of the district by having TAG type programs in those schools? A. Q. A. Q. TAG type programs? Yes. I'm sure that there's been an enrichment in those, yes. All right. Now, if you take away the enrichment, does net this hav a tendency to impact desegregation? MR. JONES: He didn't sE.y cny enrichment wes taken awey. Q. All right. Well, if you have -- you've sajd that at least something happened, if you don't have E.S much money devoted to it next year E.S you had this yeLr? A. That's true. MR. JONES: He's talking e.bout the totc
il .
mount of money, John, ana not all of that has to do with TAG. Q. Well, number 10 is the ten "lphe positions, what does that mean to you, Mr. Burgett? A. I presumed that it meant thet there would be alpha teachers that were teaching regular clesses . Q. In ether words, those alpha teachers would no longer be teaching alpha classes? A. Q. Not as many of them. And if you had used -- relied upon alpha teachers to teach students who were being ttractea into aesegregatea -- into BUSHMAN COURT BEPORTING, INC. (.=Cl) 372-~ll 5 l 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 J 2 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 34 schools for desegregetion purposes, ana they were going to be teaching special classes. By putting them beck into regular clsses, that would mean that you woula heve fewer people to tetch those specialty classes, acesn't jt? A. Thet might mean thet. But I also, in th positioning where they might be, sey, on the north side of the river, be taken out of cl~sses there ana not b taken out of ones over on the south side of the river. Q. So yo dcn't know where these positions were? A. No, sir, I don't. Q. Did you ask Mr. Lester where they bed been taken from? A. No, I have not. Q. All right. New, how ro,ny secondary TAG positions were being removed? A. I don't know. Q. Did you esk Mr. Lester? That's in number 11. Did you ask Mr. Lei::ter? A. No, I don't believe I askea him personelly. Q. Did you ask him whether or not this would have adverse aesegregati ve impact? A. I think that we, as I indicated before, that we talked ,bout ell of this as having ~ny kind of impact. Q. Where did this discussion take place? A. In his office. Q. I see. Dio you ever have thjs discussion in a public Board BUSHMAN COUFT FEPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 19 20 21 22 23 24 meeting? A. I don't recall if we did or not. 1 1a have to check the minutes. Q. Did Mr. Lester specifically tell you that none of this would have any adverse desegregotive impact? A. No, he's never sai6 that. Q. Did he .ever s~y that it would h,ve adverse desegregctive imp"ct? A. He said that it was possible that some of it would. Q. And you went ehead, after he told ycu that it was po-sible that it would? A. Well, we didn't know whether it might be or not and so, therefore, we were g~ing to see. Q. All right. But you knew from Mr. Lester -- how were you going to see if it had desegregative impact? A. We would have to have it analyzed ,fter it was done and put in place. Q. Oh. So, ~fter it was done, you would have the analysis. Why djdn't you have the analysis rnede before it was done? A. As I stated before, we relied on our professional staff to recommend this. Q. But Mr. Lester told you tht it may have ~averse desegreg~tive effect and, nonetheless, ya'll went bhead and votea for it? A. That's possible. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (EOl) 372-511~ l 2 4 6 7 e 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 24 Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. All right. Well, now, why would you ac th~t? Becau~e of financial crunch. Without having the analysis rncae first? I acnt have an answer. Thsts wonderful. You'll be my first witness. Fine. 36 MR. JONES: Now, this i~ the third person you've said js going to be your first witness. MR. WALKER: Each time it get better. I cou dn't imagine Mr. Goss being 50 gooa. But I think this 1s my witness. Q. (BY ~.iR. WALKER) Tell me, did you vote to freeze: sll sslaries, no steps? A. Yes, I did. Q. Well, now, tell me, why sre you going to Mr. Herring out here giving these pecple in-service training for purposes of getting salary increases and ~tep increases A. Q. That'~ not the only reason I sajd that he aid that. That's one reason. When these people get this training, end they go through these workshop, they're going to expect their money. so why would you cut -- vote to cut out step increases it the same time you 1re encouraging peopl~ to qualify to get step incresses? Why would you ao thot? A. Well, hopefully some day those will be able to be reinstatea. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (E0l) 372-5115 l 2 3 4 5 6 7 e 9 10 Jl 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 22 24 37 Q. A. I mean, if you're going to shut the doer on people's profession~l growth period, why that's -- I didn't see that as D possibility at all. Q. they? A. Q. A. Q. But, now, they're entitled to their step increases, aren't Under normal circumstances, I would s~y yes. What makes the circumstanceE here abnormal? Money problems. Well, now, you did give a number of people this last year step increases, didn't you? A. Q. A. Q. A. we? Q. Yesh, we did. How can you give it to some end not to ~,11? Now, wait a minute. Let's go backtrack. Okay. We did not deny step increases to anybody last year, did All right. Do you propose to deny step incieases this year to inybody? A. I think that I voted to freeze all salaries and deny any step increase this ye,r. Q. So whatever training people receive during this surrroer or during the fall, they will be den1ed step increases? A. I don't know. I don't know how the Pcisonnel Dep~rtment handles that, if you are eljgible to be on~ higher because of BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 272-:JJ5 l 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 16 19 20 21 22 23 24 ~~ ~v 38 mote increaseo educational things, whether or not -- I'm talkjng about step increases in a person who is here from yea1 to year and is eligible to be moved down from an experience increment. Q. So you're cutting out step increases that are experience related? A. Right. Q. But not education related? A. I'm not sure that we maae that distinction. Q. Okay. A. Well, I mean Q. That's fine. Now, what's the desegregation jropact of that? A. I don't know. Q. Did you ask that question of Mr. Lester? A. No. Q. Tell me, look down at the exhibit, tell me what is meant by the "Specialty Fuller Junior High Program" er th "Futures Program at Fuller Junior High" and those savings estimated tc be a totcl of $72,7~0? Are you going to save some ~oney by cutting those programs out? MR. JONES: They didn't cut it. MR. WALKER: Sam, this is my deposition. MR. JONES: Well, if you're just trying to trick the witness -- ~R. WALKER: No, I w nt to know what he thinks he rney hove sorr~ other opinion, beceuse thre ,re d'ff~r~nces of BUSHMAN COURT FEPORTING, INC. (5Cl) ~72-~115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 24 39 opinion. Q. A. (BY MR. WALKER) Did you all -- Frankly, I didn't know what I was coming down hEre for to begin with, so I -- Q. Ok~y. Well, do you want to terminate the deposition so you can go home and get prepared? A. Well, I don't -- no, I don't want to terminate it, sir. I'm glad -- I'm here freely and cooperstively tc do my best fer you. That'$ all. Q. All right. Did you -- what do you unden:tand these items down at the bottom to mean, under periods 9, and JS, and 15? Does that mean that you're gcing to affect a savings of some kind? A. Well, it looks to me, looking at this at this point in time, that this says thst there will be 9 priods seved at Fuller for secondary instructional coordinelors. Or does thet come from number 9 up above? I don't know. Q. You don't know. That's fine. I want th~t on the record, too. Now, number 15, the period 15, Futures Prograrr - Fuller Junior High School, what does that mean? Hew do you read th,t? A. Q. A. Well, this just says th~t it costs $~5,4EO for 15 petiods. So you're 901n9 to save th~t much? The same thing up there, th~t Specialty Fuller, ~t 9 periocls, it costs $27,270. Q. So that's going to be an estirn6ted savings? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (ECl) 372-Ell5 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 16 l9 20 21 22 23 24 25 4C A. I don't know if that's a sevings or whether thE.t ju&t says this is a breakdown by category. Q. Is it a fair statement to say that you don't know wh6t these items mean in the: bottorr. of the pt:ge cf Exhibit l beginning at "Breakdown by CEtegory?" A. This shows apparently what it costs. I don't know what the total of these items i~ here now. Q. No. I'm asking what these items mean? What doeE it mean when you say "Futures Program - Fuller Junior High Scheel, $45,000 and 15 periods," what does th&t mean? A. Q. A. Q. Well, 1 hesitate to s,y right now. You don't know what it me6ns, do you? I don't remember what it means. All right. You don't know wh t any of these things mean, do you? A. Q. I wouldn't say that. Well, t 11 me -- lf you wculdn't say thEt, tell me what they rrean? What do any of them mean? What do they mean? A. Q. Well, I don't know what the periods mean. That's fine. N w, did you ever know what th periods mei!nt? A. Q. A. App rently not. All right. Now, what doe~ "breEkdown by category" mean? I think thE.t, c.s I recdl this now, wb-t it n,eans js thE.t, for inst~nce, like we had a coach who was given on extr~ per1oa BUSHMAN COUFT F.EPCFTING, INC. (!:01) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 C ~ 6 7 s 9 10 11 1
12 14 15 16 l7 1e 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 - 41 off to coordinate athletics, that he was going to have to go back into the classroom, and thEt he wcula be utilized as a teacher. And that when ell those variouE things were done like that, that rother thon having to employ more personnel, as we have right now, they could do it with less personnel, to that would be a gvings. Under where jt says, "Athl~tic coordinEtors at various schools," that by placing them back in the cl~ssrccrn, that this is the type of savings that woulo be with the others. the saroe wey Q. I see. Well, let's look at the special ed coordinators in various $Chools. Don't those coordinators have a respon$ibility for working with parents? A. I'm sure they do. Q. Haven't you all represented to the ccurt that you all have a strong parent contact program, and that you will seek to promote parental cont~ct? A. Yes, ir. Q. Why wou1a you cut back on special ea coordinators at the various schools, cooraination of that function at the vtrious schools? A. I don't know exactly how that WQS going to be efiected. Q. I see. But you're cutting jt back, aren't you, after you say to the court that's a major thjng and it has desegregative impact, doesn't it? A. I tell you what, when we're hunting around trying to find BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 l 2 3 4 5 6 7 e g 10 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 ~2 23 24 25 42 w~ys to s&ve money, everything is jrnportant, Mr. Walker. Q. Wh"t's the rr."jority race of the persons in special ea in the district? A. I don't know. Q. You h0ve not resa the A. Well, I tell you what now, I didn't come down here to be tested over every specific item. I don't know. I can't give you ~n idea. I'm sure thet they're mixed. Q. Aren't you tware thot blacks are in speci1 ed Jn disproport1onat numbers? A. You're talking ebout students now? Q. Yes, sir. A. Yes. Q. All right. And does not this mean that if you cut out th coordin~tors 01 the coordjnation at the various schools, thot thiE m Ens that you'll h&ve disproportiontte effect upon bltck A. I don't know. Q. You've never thought about that before now? A. Well, actually I've thought obout it~ lot. Q. Well, did you think about the adverse effect tht it would have A. I mean, not necessorily Q. Did you think that this would have ~n adverse effect upon the black chjldren, their eoucation? BUSHMAN COURT REPO~TING, INC. ( 501) 3 72-5115 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 Jl 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 23 24 25 43 A. PerEonally speaking, Mr. Walker, that cutting back on any of these people has an cdverse effect on the entire education~l program of the district, which is very distB$teful to me. Q. Did you feel that cutting back en the coordin~tors, the secondary instructional coordinators will have an B~verse effect upon the qualjty of education that those persons supervise and coordinste? MR. JCNES: You've
.lret.dy asked hrn1 that. MR. WALKER: I understand tht..t. But now he's making a statement that he didn't make before. He SE.id it wouldn't have an effect before. So now you're saying it does. I'm saying to get him to say which posit1on he's going to take ultimately. Q. (BY MR. WALKER) Does it or doesn't it have an effect? You say now that all of it will have an effect, and earlier you said it wouldn't have an effect. Which is correct? A. I don't know. When did I say earlier -- what did I say earlier? Q. You said that you're shifting the responsibility and the function to the teachers by cutting out the second6ry instructional coordin~tors and the other coordinators, and you'll be able to have as good a program if the teachers pick up the sleek next year as you had last year, do you recall that? Q. I said I hoped that we would, that's correct. But it's not logical that you would, is it? BUSH~!AN COURT REPORTING, INC. (501) 372-5115 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 23 24 25 44 I sticl that I -- I believe I said that ~s far as growth w,s concernea, it wouldn't be as good. Q. All right. Do you net comrni t to the dish :ict eono to the court that there will be continual grcwth
and, thus, remediation of ach1evement disp~rit1es between black and white youngsters? A. Q. Sc.y thet again? All right. Let me put it this way. Ya'll have said thet one of your goals is to rerneditte achievement d1fferences between black and white students, right? A. Q. That means that there ha~ to be a growth factor for minority achievement, doesn't it? A. I would think so. Q. All r1ght. Now, growth is going to be st~gnited, how is the gap going to be rerneoiated or eliminated? A. I don't know. Q. All right. Just a few more questions. Did you seek legal counsel before rraking the budget cuts? A. Q. Did I seek legal counsel? Did you or the Board? We weren't involved. So, I rneen, I'm now asking if Mr. JoneE ~na his office to your re.collection were involved? A. Q. I don't remember discussing thc.t, no. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (5Cl) 372-~ll.5 1 2 3 4 s 6 7 8 9 10 Jl 12 13 14 1~ )6 J7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2!
- 45 A. As far as requesting legal counsel. Q. Did you ask legal counsel to give you on opinion as to hew this would impact upon the desegregation plan? A. Net in a formal resolution, no. Q. In any way? A. Not that I recall. Q. Who ran with this the most on the Boardi wos it the President of the Bo~rd, ot A. Who ran with what? Q. The idea to go and ao these things without getting the advice of counsel, or the approvel of court, or the participation of the Joshua Intervenors, 01 the other parties to this lc.wsuit? A. I don't know that any one specific person did. Q. All right. Do you know how rr,uch was actut1lly saved with the budget cuts and the rEorganizaticn? D you have a document which you can point us to? A. Do I have one? Q. Yes, sir, that we ccn present to the court. If the court asked you how much was actually s~vea, wb~t can you tell her? A. I don't know the exact figure, no. Q. All right. If she says, do you hav a document which h~s which demonst1ateE the exact figure, hat would you say? A. I'd say I'd have to go ask for one. Q. Have you ever seen one? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (EOl) 272-ElE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 16 19 20 21 25 46 A. I've seen so many documents, that I don't know -- rec&ll which one it would be. Q. A. Q. A. Have you ever seen a document which does that? I don't recall st this particulor time. All right. There have been also very many revisions to all cf the cost estirn&tes costing out, savings involved, meny, m&ny times. Q. I see. So you were forced jnto these budget cuts. Did you all consider any othtr &lternotives besides budget cuts? A. Q. A. Q. I think we had voted to reduce the school year. That's a budget cut, isn't it? But that's not reducing staff er any other kind of a I see. Well, you could have reduced the school year by two or three days anc1 not hod any stsff cuts, couldn't you? A. Q. Q. A. MR. JONES: They did reduce the school year. We reduced it five days. Yeah, but you reinsteted that, didn't you? MF. JONES: When the millage passed. Now, you could h~ve -- I have not been -- I heard that it was, rec:.d that it wai
. But I was not present. Q. You could still close school Early by one cay and keep all the staff memb rs, couldn't you? Let me put it another way. If the savings for five days is $1,500,000, my arthritic sc:.ys that BUSHMAN COUFT FEPOFiING, INC. (501) 372-5]1!: l 2 3 4 .s.
,: 6 7 8 9 10 Jl 12 13 14 15 16 17 lE 19 20 21 22 23 24 2~ - 4.7 that's $300,0C0 a day. For $300,C0O you cen keep froffi reducing anybody for the next year, can't you? A. It would seem th~t that might be a w~y. Q. One aay, and ye'll never considered that option? A. Well, Eis a matter of fact, I think I discussed the option of, since there was some other things involved in cutting back on five days, I th ink it wes a FICA p~yment that we would be saving that we could not have tc cut five, but we could only cut four, save the same amount of money. Q. Are you all trying to, as far as you know, put more money into your contJngency fund for operating costs during 1SS2-93? A. More money than what? Q. Than you had last year. Is that one of the aim~ that you Eought to accompljsh by the budget cut? A. I don't believe the,t tbe contingency funds was what we were worrJed ebout. I believe it was having enough money to complete this year and fund the next year. Q. Was the contingency fund~ consideraticn ot all 1n the planning with respect to the budget cut -- budget reduction consideration, ~es that a factor atoll? A. As I recall, it would -- the discussion on the contingency funds were that it would not be a good idea to h~ve o neg~tlve one, be in the hole. Q. I ~ee. That's the only discussion you recall obout it? A. I'm net sure. I'm thinking of sorre other numbers, and I'm BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (~Cl) 372-:11 1 2 3 4 .IC., 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14. 15 16 17 1 19 21 22 23 25 not sure the context in which they came up, whether it was contingency fund or not. Q. Do you know anything ~bout having a deo1re to h~ve a contingency fund of 2 1/2 milllon collo1s? A Q. A. Q. A. A specific oreount like that, no, sir, I dontt. Hove you ever heard any discussion like th,t? No. You were at all Board meet1ngs until l\!arch 17th? That's correct. 48 Q. Did you ev r oiscuss this budget in executive sessions, a proposed budget dilemma cf the -- the budget dilemma of the district? A. Q. A. Q. The budget dilemma of the district? Yes. In regard to personnel, I think we did. Well, any particular perscnc reg,rding -- were any particul0r persons, personnel ccnsiderations under discussion in those meetings? A. Q. A. Particular ones? Yes, sir. I don't think so. I think that it wos stated that since the district's finances were driv n 70 or ED percent by s~l r1 s, that that eeroed to be the only plac where we could go and get money, is by saving positions. MR. JONES: John, I repreEentea to each of these BUSHMAN COURT EEPOP.TING, INC. (501) 372-5115 l 2 3 4 6 7 C 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 1e 19 21 22 23 24 49 witnesses, is you had told roe, thet these depositions would be approximately 30 minutes. MR. WALKER: All r1ght. You're right. And I think I've gotten -- I'm fine. I think th~t you 1re tight, and I ~pologize. We can go off the record now. (WHEREUPON, it 6~30 p.m., the tiking of the above-entitled deposition wcs concluded.) * * * * * * * * * BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING, INC. (:01) 372-511~ S'I1,'IE OF AFKANS S} }t:. COUNTY OF WHI 'IE } C E F I F ! C A 'l E E: 'l'IlE OPAL D POSl'!.iCN OF Jll-1 BUFG TT: 1, JFFF BE1'Nt'IT, CC11, LS us, iJ 'e:ti:ry Publjc lfl t.r) f~I While County, Arkon~~ tru
nd th~t th forc_oin epcsiti~n w~E tr~nEcribcc by ne, or un ~r ThY supet ition, en thE Cirrtrcn lil Cc~p tczi~cd Tt enscr ipticn SyE tern tron. n.y 1u:_chin "horth~na nctee. tc:k n ~t th~ tiae tnd p ~ct cet out en th ctpt1cn heretc, the WJtneEe bern'" fHt duly C:Ut:ic.ned i,.nd rworn, er tffnn:eo, to t 11 the truth, the wh le truth, tn nothing but the truth. I FtJI:'nlER CERTIFY U-,"t I lm n i tl tr c<.,uru .. l for, rclEted tc, nor employed by &ny oi tbc prtiEE tc tte ,ctjon in which this depcEitlcn west ken
tna fu1ther, th~t l ,n net t relc t1v o.i: empltycE cf cny ,ttcnncy er cC
unetl cniployeo by tl:e pi.trticE, beutc, ncr flnt-nci lly intertctec., or otherwie, in tht outcC
n,e of thi t.cticn. GIVEN UNDER MY ey of June, 1S!2. JEFF Bttrn ,J 9, tote Cc.unty, A My coromiscjon X~jrE JJ-
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cc BUSHMA~' COURT REPORTING, lNC. ~Cl Ettl Sixth Street LittlE Rock, Ark n~,e 7~202 (!Cl) :27~-DH
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<dcterms_creator>Bushman Court Reporting</dcterms_creator>