Little Rock School District vs. Pulaski County Special School District
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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS WESTERN DIVISION LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT vs . LRC 82--866 PULASKI COUNTY SPECIAL SCHOOL DISTRICT NO . 1 , ET AL MRS . LORENE JOSHUA , ET AL KATHERINE KNIGHT , ET AL ORAL DEPOSITION OF MR. ED WILLIAMS JANUARY 9TH, 2007 BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING 620 WEST THIRD SUITE 201 LITTLE ROCK, ARKANSAS 72201 (501) 372-5115 bushmanreporting@aoI . com PLAINTIFFS DEFENDANT INTERVENORS INTERVENORS RECEIV JAN 19 2001 Off\CEOF DESEGREGAi\ON MON\TORI G APPEARANCE OF COUNSEL ON BEHALF OF PLAINTIFF: MR . CHRISTOPHER HELLER FRIDAY , ELDREDGE & CLARK , LLP 2000 REGIONS CENTER 400 WEST CAPITOL AVENUE LITTLE ROCK , AR . 72201 ON BEHALF OF JOSHUA INTERVENORS: MR . JOHN WALKER , P .A. 1723 BROADWAY LITTLE ROCK , AR . 72206 STATE OF ARKANSAS OFFICE OF ATTY GENERAL: SCOTT P . RICHARDSON ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL 323 CENTER STREET SUITE 1100 LITTLE ROCK , AR . 72201 2 3 I N D E X STYLE AND NUMBER 1 APPEARANCES . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 STIPULATION PAGE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Examination by Mr . Walker ............................ 5 Examination by Mr . Heller ............................ 76 Deposition concluded ....... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 77 COURT REPORTER ' S CERTIFICATE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. .. . . .. . 78 EXHIBITS l. PRE ' S Compliance BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 4 ED WILLIAMS PRODUCED , SWORN , AND EXAMINED at the law office of John Walker , 1723 Broadway , in Little Rock , Arkansas , beginning at 10 : 50 a .m. on January 9th , 2007 , the above- entitled cause now pending in the United States District Court , Eastern District of Arkansas , Western Division , said deposition being taken purs ~ , to the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure , by agreement of counsel , at the instance of counsel for Joshua Intervenors . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR . WALKER : Q State your name , please . A Edward Remly , R-- E- M- L--E- Y, Williams . Q Dr . Williams , how long have you worked for the Little Rock School District? A Since September 1 , 1998 . Q Have you been providing primarily statistical services for the district during that time? A I have a much more extensive job description than just that . Q I understand but would you say that your primary work has been in the area of statistics during that period of time? A Q Yes . All right . And I take it that you ' ve also been serving as director for the last six weeks? A I ' ve been interim director since December 1 , 2006 . Q Now , before you were made interim director of PRE , did you have any discussions with Mr . Hattabaugh or Dr . Roy Brooks? A Since they ' ve been in the district , yes , I ' ve had conversations with them . Q Did you have any discussions about your becoming director of PRE on an interim basis before Dr . DeJarnette was removeci from the position? A No . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 6 Q What was your relationship with Dr . DeJarnette before she was removed from the position? A Dr . Karen DeJarnette was my immediate superior . Q And what was the nature of the working relationship between you all? A We had discussions about our roles and performing my JOC, functions . She assigned duties to me to perform and I performed them to the best of my ability . Q A Q A Q Did you get along well with her? Yes . Did you have professional respect for her? Yes . Did you ever have occasion to meet with the superintendent , outside her presence , regarding program evaluation? A I don ' t recall . Q Did you ever have occasion to meet with the superi"~~ ~ outside her presence, regarding any subject at any time after she was hired? A Yes , I recall some instances . Q Can you begin by reporting each instance that you met with the superintendent after she was hired , without her presence? A I know of one . I 'm just trying to recall if there were others . Q A When was that meeting? The one I recall with the most detail would have taken BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 place in either April or May of 2006 . Q Did he invite you to his office? A I recall that he did , yes . Q A Q You did not take it on your own initiative to go there? No , I don ' t recal l that . What was the subject of the meeting? A It dealt with doing the statistical analysis for what I call the Meadow- Wak project but it would have been the Meadowcliff- Wakefield Teacher Merit Pay Project . Q Is that the project funded by Mr . Walter Hussman? A If I recall , that project was jointly funded by the school district and Walter Hussman . Q What is the source of your recollection? A I think , if I recall , it was just general conversation in the spring of 2000 . Although , that could have come from Dr . DeJarnette , some of that could have been board meetings . I can ' t - - I don ' t recall specifically . I think it was just general -- Q What was the statistical analysis you were called upon to perform? A Each school had a different statistical model in determining student growth so that ' s what we discussed to ma:~ sure that my role in doing that analysis was clarified. Q A Who else was present at that meeting? I don ' t recall if anyone else was present . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q Did he tell you the purpose of this statistical analysis? No . No, I don ' t recall that we discussed why it was done . Did you prepare a statistical analysis , pursuant to his request? A Yes , I did . Q A Q A Q Was that analysis reduced to writing? Yes , it was . Is it in a form which can be reproduced? Yes . What is it called? 8 A There were two separate reports , one for each school , and I think it was something like Meadowcliff -- I think it was either Meadowcliff and then Wakefield Teacher Pay for Performance or I don ' t think it used the term merit pay . I don ' t recall the specific title of the report but it dealt with -- it ~~- _ separate report for each school . Meadowcliff Teacher -- they changed the name of that program and it ' s called Teacher Challenge Project now but it was like Teacher Pay for -something like that. Q Okay. What was the statistical analysis methodology that you utilized in performing this task? A As I recall, we had two different models and the model at, if I recall correctly because I don't have my notes in front of me, the model at Meadowcliff looked at individual student growth on the total test battery on the Stanford 10 using national BUSHMAN COURT RSPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9 curve equivalent scores from the fall administration to the spring administration . The Wakefield model dealt with us i ng t he same score , total battery and national curve equivalent scores , but looked at classroom averages in growth from the fall administration to the spring administration . Q Di d you perform an analysis? A Yes . Q Did you make any conclusions when you performed your analysis? A I don ' t believe i n the report that there was a conclusion section of that report . I don ' t recall that being in there . Q A Q A Q Was this in the nature of a program assessment? No . Was this in the nature of a program evaluation? No . What was it that you were evaluating -- well , what was it that you were measuring then , other than the movement in test scores from one period in a school year to another? A As I recall , both models looked at chance in student scores from the spring to the fall . Q On that basis , was it to be determined if there were material changes this reflected the achievement of teachers for purposes of determining merit pay? A The analysis that I did was to determine the student growth from fall -- did I say spring to fall? I meant to say fall -- BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q A You said fall to spring . Okay . Thank you . Fall to spring . teachers were paid based on a schedule . Q Who determined the schedule? From that analysis , A If I recall , for Meadowcliff we used the same schedule as 10 we did for the '04 -'05 Teacher Pay for Performance Report and the Wakefield payout -- I don ' t recall who all was involved in making that decision . I don ' t reca l l . There were a number of people involved . I was not a part of that decision- making process . Q Let me understand this . There were payments to be made to teachers , provided student -- in one situation , student average test scores increased
is that fair to say? A Would you mind repeating that , sir? Q Yes . Teachers were to be rewarded with pay increases at one particular school for showing an average class improvement or improvement in test scores on an average basis within a class from one point in time to another point in time in the school year? A As I recall, it wasn ' t a pay increase . It would have been similar to a -- Q A bonus? A - - bonus or incentive pay . Q Okay . Now , would you not ordinarily, Dr . Williams, expe~ r children to have their averages changed as the year goes on if BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 any teaching is going on at all? A I would think that would be a normal expectation that scores would increase . However , based on a standardized test score , there is a little bit different look at things . Q I see . Is it fair to say that also when you were dealing with this that you were dealing with only those teachers who dealt with academic subjects? 11 A If I recall , the model included pay outs for every employee in the school , irrespective of whether they were a teacher or not . Q Okay . So if there was an improvement of students in a particular class , then irrespective of whether a person worked in any class , all the people got paid extra? A If I interpret what you ' re saying , did the janitors get paid Q A Q Yes . Yes , sir . Do you know whether the rest of PRE was involved in this statistical presentation? A You mean in their report writing? Q Anything . First of all , did you discuss what you were tasked with Dr . DeJarnette? Did you tell her what Dr . Brooks had asked you to do? A Yes , I recall I did at some point , yeah . Q Well, when you began it , did you tell her what he had asked BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 12 you to do? A If I recall , the initial conversation about doing the analysis included Dr . Roberts and Dr . DeJarnette and myself and maybe the whole team was there when the subject was brought up about doing the analysis . Q At that time , did Dr . Roberts -- Dr . Brooks was not present
was he? A No . Q Did Dr . Roberts take the lead for the district on this subject? A Yes , based on the chain of command , yes . Q I see. Now , did Dr . Roberts explain why she got you involved or why Dr . Brooks got you involved , rather than Dr. DeJarnette directly? A As I recall , the protocol was for -- just to give you some background , the previous year we had -- there was an external person that did all the data analysis and there was no oversight by anyone . Whatever they produced was what the pay out was based on . A concern was that - - and there was some timeliness in terms of getting that analysis done , if I recall . The school district wanted to do the analysis this year and then have an expert double-check the data that we had ran in terms of ~ne statistical analysis . Q My question is : How is it that Dr. DeJarnette was circumvented? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 13 BY MR . FINLEY : Object to the form . BY MR . WALKER : Q Dr . DeJarnette was , in fact , circumvented in terms of this task being assigned to you
isn ' t that correct? A If I interpret your question as to why Dr . DeJarnette did not do the statistical analysis herself , she typically -- over the course of her time in the district , those types of things are assigned to those people most qualified to do those kinds of jobs , a true statistician . Q In terms of protocol , since you talked about protocol , the protocol of the district is for a person to relate to that next person at the next level , isn ' t it , instead of jumping over levels and getting assignments or making reports? BY MR . FINLEY : Object to the form . That ' s a compound question . BY MR . WALKER : Q But you understand the question? That is the protocol , isn't it, Dr . Williams? A In this particular instance , with the Meadow-Wak project , Dr . DeJarnette had very little or no interest to be involved in the project at all. Q I understand. Did she tell you she had no interest in it? Did she tell you that? A That's the dialogue that I had -- that was my BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 interpretation of the dialogue that I had with Dr . DeJarnette . Q I see . Did Dr . DeJarnette make that report in your presence to either Dr . Roberts or to Dr . Brooks? A What report? That she had no interest in the project . I 'm not sure . Was this a time-consuming task of yours? 14 Q A Q A Q I would say no because it fell into my field of expertise . Didn ' t take much time? A I 'm trying to recall how much time I actually spent on tte project . The actual analysis took the least amount of time. Q Not the analysis . It ' s the data gathering
isn ' t it? A I didn ' t gather the data . Q A Q You didn ' t gather it? No . Who gathered the data? A If I recall, whoever was the test coordinator at the time disseminated the test materials and sent the test materials to the testing company and then the testing company sent the results back to us . Q A So you made the analysis yourself? Yes, and we had an exterior statistician validate my results . Q A That analysis was computer- determined
wasn ' t it? Yes, sir. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 15 Q So you didn ' t really make a statistical analysis . It was a computer statistical analysis
wasn ' t it? A Yes . We used S . P . S.S . Q So what did you do with respect to this analysis , other than program some numbers? A That would be a very simplistic way of answering what I did , yes , sir . Q And you all paid somebody the previous year a lot of money to do that? A I don ' t recall what was paid to that person . Q Who was that person the previous year , the external person? A It was a fellow that worked for the co-op in Camden . He has expertise in running the testing software and I can ' t reca1: his name right now . I 'm sorry . Maybe in a couple of hours it will pop into my brain . Sorry . Q That ' s fine . Now , let me ask : Before you became interim director , had you ever been responsible for supervising any group of employees within the Little Rock School District? A Q Not that I recall , no . So you have no previous experience in the school district or in education as a supervisor of employees? A Yes , I have extensive experience supervising employees in the education setting . Q A Can you tell me what educational setting that was? Yes , sir . I ran a three-year grant program at the BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 University of Arkansas-Little Rock . 16 I was the director of that project . It was called STEPS , Successful Transition to Employment for Post - Secondary Students . two people . I supervised a staff of Q Two people . Do you have any educational training in program evaluation? A Yes , I do . Q Do you have your vitae? You didn ' t bring that with you? A No , but it ' s in the 1st Quarterly Report . Q I see . Does that vitae disclose that you have training in program evaluation? A It lists my degrees and my education , yes . Q Do you recall where you took a course or courses in program evaluation and assessment? A Q A Q At the University of Arkansas at Fayetteville . Was that in your undergraduate or graduate program? Graduate program . I see . Had you ever had any responsibility for program evaluation and assessment before you became interim director? A Could you repeat that? BY MR . WALKER : Will you play the record back , please? (Record played back at this time) BY THE WITNESS : Yes . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 17 BY MR . WALKER : Q When was that? A It would be in my roles and responsibilities as a research statistician and a statistician with the Little Rock School District . Q In that role , did you supervise employees? A No . Q A I see . All right . You did apply for the position I mean , that was just with my Little Rock work . I have done research and evaluation prior to coming to the Little Rock School District . Q For any public school district? A On contract with another school district , no
dealing with data from school districts , yes . Q Did you provide the statistical data that Dr . Bonnie Leslie relied upon before 2002 , which was presented to Judge Wilson by Mr . Heller? A I 'm unclear as to the types of analysis that Bonnie Leslie I 'm uncertain of what you ' re talking about . Q Did you provide the statistics to her , with respect to student achievement , that she relied on in her presentation to the court? A I 'm not familiar with her testimony to the court so I -- Q Are you familiar with the district's report to the court on Pre- K literacy? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 18 A Yes , I am . Q Did you provide the statistics to Dr . Leslie regarding Pre- K literacy? A I don ' t recall providing any information directly to Dr . Leslie . If I provided any information , it would have been to the person that wrote that report . Q I see . Were the data that were presented in that report accurate and complete? A I ' d have to go back and -- that ' s the one that was written by Dr . Eddie McCoy? Q Yes . A I ' d have to go back and look at that report . I 'm not up to speed on that report . It ' s been four years . Q I see . A I would say off- hand that it should have been accurate , yeah , but I don ' t know . I ' d have to go back and look at the report to lay my eyes on it again . I 'm unfamiliar with that report right now. Q All right . Have you read the court ' s order regarding program evaluation and assessment in this case? A Are you meaning the court ' s compliance report? Q It ' s called Compliance Remedy , yes . A Q A Yes , I ' ve read it . When did you first read it? Probably , well , fairly soon after it was available for BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537 - 5110 l 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 reading . Q A Q A Q Have you had discussions regarding that with Dr . Brooks? On the Compliance Remedy? Yes . No . Have you had discussions regarding the Compliance Remedy with Dr . Roberts? A Nothing specific . Q With Mr . Hattabaugh? A No . Q I see . With Dr . DeJarnette? A Yes , extensive . Q I see . Was this one-on- one or was it in group meetings? A If I recall , it began one-on-one . When she first was hired , she and I had a meeting and went through the Compliance Remedy and then discussed those issues that came up in the Judge ' s order . Then , as the days and weeks progressed , it was less one-on-one and always with groups as those people came on board and we started to implement the Compliance Remedy . I see . Team meetings . Things like that . 19 Q A Q Do you have any experience in preparing and overseeing the preparation of formal program evaluations? A Q Yes , I have done those . Where have you done those and where can we see them? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 20 A If I recall -- are you talking about just within the Little Rock School District? Q Well , let ' s start with Little Rock . A Let me think . I did one on HIPPY , some year - round evaluations . I did one on middle school transition . There could have been others but those are the ones I recall the most. Q Do you recall who worked under your supervision in preparing and overseeing the formal program evaluations in those areas? A Q A Q A Q I didn ' t supervise anyone . I see . Whom did you report to? Dr . Kathy Lease . That was my immediate supervisor. So you reported to Dr . Lease? Yes . Were those the program evaluations that were either lost or misplaced or not utilized in the court proceeding? A Q I 'm unsure of that question . Let me put it another way . Were they ever -- were those draft reports? A Are you talking about the 2002 -- Q Yes . A My recollection is that I turned all that information over to Dr. Kathy Lease and, what happened after that , I don't know in terms of reports to the courts . Q I see . Did you have extensive experience in overseeing the BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 21 preparation of program evaluations? That ' s yes or no . A Yes . Q Is that the experience you ' ve just described? A You aske d me about my experience in the Little Rock School District and I replied to those questions based on what I recall my experience with the Little Rock School District is in terms of program evaluation . I mean , there ' s other things . Q Are there programs in the Little Rock School District that are designed specifically to improve the achievement of AfricanAmerican students? A I didn ' t catch that. I 'm sorry . BY MR . WALKER : Could you replay that for us? (Record played back at this time) BY MR . WALKER : Q A You can answer when you want to . I lost my train of thought there . I 'm thinking all over again , sorry . The programs that we have implemented , national research and in some of the readings I have done , has shown that they have a positive impact on the achievement of AfricanAmerican students . So , to answer your question , we implemented those programs . My understanding is , we implemented those programs based on the national research but we needed to determine if those programs , while they may work in another case city in the United States , do they have the external validity in BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 22 terms of improving the academic achievement of African- American students , as the national research says they do . In a roundabout way , sir , yes , we have implemented programs that will -- we feel should impact the achievement level of AfricanAmerican students . Q Can you identify any programs that are specifically defined and designed by the Little Rock School District for the purpose of improving African- American , specifically , African-American student achievement? A If we ' re talking about the eight program evaluations that we did , all eight programs are either national research programs or based on models of national research designed to improve and impact the achievement level of African-American students . Q Do you recall reading the reports that were submitted by Mr . Heller to the court indicating that there were a number of programs that the Little Rock School District was implementing that were specifically designed to improve academic achievement of African-American students? A Q What was the date of that report , sir? 2001 - 2002 . A There ' s a possibility that I read that report . years ago. That ' s five Q Did you understand, for instance, the City- Year Tutoring Program to be designed specifically for improving African - American student achievement? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 l 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q 23 I 'm not familiar with that program . That ' s fine . Did you understand the 21st Century Community Learning Program in Mabelvale School to be designed specifically to improve African- American achievement? A It is my recollection , in looking at their website on the current 21st Century , that those activities are designed -- the activities that each individual school can implement are designed to improve the academic achievements . Q A Of African- American students? I believe so , yes . If I recall , looking at their current website . I ' d have to - - Q Isn ' t it true that all the programs that you all have in the district are designed to improve the academic achievement of all students rather than simply African- American students? A It is my understanding that the programs that we ' ve chosen are programs that the national research has shown to improve the academic achievement level of African-American students . It is in all likelihood that the implementations of those specific programs will have an impact on all students ' achievement . Q So your understanding is that when you focus on improving the academic achievement of African - American students , white students don't suffer
isn ' t that correct? A I think there ' s been enough written about the data nationally and the data with the Little Rock School District to affirm that , yes, those types of programs that we are BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 implementing are having an impact on all students . Q Now , are you familiar with the various programs that are set forth in the compliance report , 2001 - 2002 , to the court? A Q A Q Yes . Wait a minute . Yes . Sorry . You just said 2001 - 2002? No , I 'm not familiar with every one of those programs . All right . Now , Have you ever had a one - on - one 24 conversation with Joy Springer regarding program assessment and evaluation? A I don ' t recall having a one - on- one conversation with Joy Springer . Q A Q A Q Have you ever had such a conversation with John Walker? One-on-one? Yes , sir . Not that I recall , no . Have you ever been privy to any one- on- one conversations regarding program assessment and evaluations between Ms . Joy Springer and Dr . Karen DeJarnette? A You mean one- on-one where it would be Joy , and Dr . DeJarnette and myself? Q A No , that ' s not what I mean but I ' ll just take that -- Okay . Then I can rescind my answer . To answer the previous two , yes , I ' ve been meetings where I responded to questions by Joy Springer and John Walker , yes . Q I see . Those have been meetings where -- BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 25 A I don ' t consider those one-on- one . Q Now , have you ever been in a meeting where just you and Dr . DeJarnette were present with Ms . Springer? A I don ' t recall ever being in a meeting like that . Q Or where Dr . DeJarnette and you and Mr . Walker were the only ones present? A Q A I don ' t recall , no . Has Mr . Walker ever asked you for any private information? No . The only conversation I recall ever having with Mr . Wa l ker was an FOI request . Q I see . You have passed Mr . Walker in the hall and in other places and exchanged pleasantries
haven ' t you? A Yes , I have . Q Now , were you informed by anyone that you were not to cooperate with ODM or Joshua in the last two years? A I don ' t recall ever being instructed not to talk to ODM. was instructed not to talk to Mr . Walker or the Joshua Intervenors unless our attorney was present . Q A Who gave you that instruction? Attorney Chris Heller . Q I see . When did he give it to you? A I don ' t recall the specific date . It was an e - mail and it I was probably in the fall of 2005 , maybe spring of 2006 . I don ' t recall exactly . Q I see . What precipitated that e-mail? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 A I don ' t know . Q I see . Did you and the staff of PRE meet to discuss that e - mail from Mr . Heller? A I don ' t know if the staff discussed it . I know that Dr . DeJarnette and I had a discussion about it . Q I see . And what was the - - A I can ' t recall if we brought it up in a staff meeting . It ' s in all likelihood that we did . Q What comments did Dr . DeJarnette make about Mr . Heller ' s e - mail to you regarding that subject? A I don ' t recall any comments by Dr. DeJarnette on that . Q A Q A What comments did you make to Dr . DeJarnette on that? I just reiterated what the e - mail said in my own words . I see . Why did you do that? I just felt that it was important that we -- I just felt that it was important that that information be clarified . Q I see . Did you get clarification from Dr . DeJarnette regarding that? A No . As I said earlier, I don ' t recall her ever making a comment on my reiteration of that . Q Did you go to her to raise the subject? A If I recall , we just happened to be in the office -- well , I think she had the e - mail on her desk and showed it to me or something like that . I was in there for something else and that just came up in conversation . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 l l 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q 27 I see . What is the responsibility that you assumed for the 7th and 8th Quarterly Reports that were submitted to Joshua , ODM, and ultimately, the court? A I provided to Jim Wooleb any appropriate information that was pertinent to my role as the team leader and as the facilitator to any of the evaluation meetings and then was asked to peer review, if possible , the reports . Q A Q I see . You were the team leader? I was a team leader , yes , sir . I see . Why were you making these comments to Wooleb? A Mr . Wooleb was -- one of his roles was to write the quarterly reports . Q So you had no responsibility for writing the reports? A I provided him information and documents that could be inserted in the reports . Q I understand . But you had no responsibility for writing the report
did you? BY MR . FINLEY : Other than what he just testified to? He ' s testified he provided information and peer review
didn't he? BY MR . WALKER : That ' s a coaching objection . BY MR . WALKER: Q Did you have any responsibility for writing -- you BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 understand what I mean by writing? A Q Yes . Did you? 28 A I wrote -- I may have written documents that were inserted into the quarterly report but the entire report , it ' s compilation was the responsibility of Mr . Wooleb and we provided, each of us , depending on our roles , provided him with written i nformation to be inserted into the report . Q So Mr . Wooleb had the respons i bility for preparing the prel i minary draft and submitting it to Dr . DeJarnette , is that fair to say? A Q He was responsible for compiling the information . I see . Now , who had the responsibility for preparing the report , the quarterly report? A Q PRE . That ' s right . You remember the Compliance Remedy said that PRE was to prepare the compliance report
do you not? A Yes . Q That wasn ' t a task of Dr . Roberts
was it? I ' ll give you the report to refresh your memory. A PRE is an entity of the Little Rock School District and -- Q No . I 'm asking you to look at the document . Did not the judge say that that was a PRE delegated duty? That ' s different from the evaluations . Let ' s take a minute break to look at that . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (Off the record) (Back on the record and the following testimony was given , as follows , to- wit) : 29 BY MR . WALKER : Q A Q A Q A Does that refresh your recollection? Yes . Whose responsibility was it to prepare the report? The judge asked that PRE submit written quarterly updates . To whom? To the judge and to ODM and Joshua? Yes , but PRE is an entity of the Little Rock School District . I 'm not asking your interpretation. If it says PRE , it's sans LRSD . Q A Q That ' s your position . Now , nobody above Dr . DeJarnette had any responsibility for doing this task
did they? First of all, did anybody above Dr. DeJarnette, meaning Dr . Brooks and Mr . Hattabaugh and Dr . Roberts , participate in these meetings that were held regarding program assessment and evaluations that took place in the last two years? A Did they attend team evaluation meetings? Q Yes . A Yes . Dr . Roberts and Mr . Hattabaugh did . Q Did they do so before the year 2006? A I Id have to go back and look at the minutes of the meetings . I 'm uncertain on that . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 l 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Isn ' t it fair to say -- And I know Dr. Roberts accompanied Dr . DeJarnette to 30 Memphis to discuss the comprehensive program assessment process Q Well , I 'm talking about only the ones where Ms . Springer or Mr . Walker or both of them were present . Isn ' t it true that , until recently , Mr . Hattabaugh and Dr . Roberts were not present in those meetings? A As I recall , they , as did Joshua , attended more of the year two , Step II Program Evaluation meetings than in year one . Q Now , Ms . Springer has been to more of those meetings than Dr . Roberts
hasn ' t she? A I ' d have to go Q Just on your recollection . I 'm not asking you to go and check your notes . Based on your present recollection , isn ' t that true? A In all likelihood, it probably could be . Q All right . A I did actually look at some data on that and I think that Joshua attended about 30 to 40 percent , if I recollect , I don ' t have the data in front of me but about 30 or 40 percent of the year one meetings and about 80 to 90 percent of the year two meetings . Q What caused you to make that kind of assessment? Was it in anticipation of your testimony in court? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q 31 I was curious about attendance . What are you going to say to the court when you are called to testify , whenever you testify regarding program a s sessment and evaluation? Please just give me a statement of what it is . A What program assessment and evaluation -- Q Well , you ' re going to be called as a witness
are you not? A Okay . Q And you were , until last night , the director? I guess you ' re still director until they let her go back to work . Have they told you that she can ' t go back to work until next week? A I 'm understanding that Dr . DeJarnette is -- I don ' t know if they used that terminology . That ' s not the terminology they used with me . Q Are you informed that she will not report to work until after the 16th of this month? A Q A Q A Q A Q I was told that she will be coming to work next Tuesday . Who told you that , by the way? Dr . Roberts . When did she tell you that? This morning . I see . What else did she tell you this morning about that? That ' s all she told me . I see . Did she tell you why she was being continued on suspension, despite the school board ' s ruling last night? A No , she didn't . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 32 Q Did she tell you what you were supposed to be doing in the meantime? A Yeah , continue on with the work that we ' re doing . Q And what are you doing? A We ' re doing feasible , modified and ongoing assessments of the year one Step II evaluations . We ' re compiling data on the Vision -- data to report on Vision and we ' re starting testing , we ' re starting mid- year testing . Q You ' re also starting mid- year testing? A This week . The test data -- the test materials arrived yesterday . Q So you are in charge of that until next week? A Q A Q Yes . That ' s a responsibility of the director of PRE . Did she give you any written directions? No . Did she meet with you or did she talk with you on the telephone? A Do you mean today? Q A Q A Q A Q Yes . Both . So when did she mee~ with you? This morning . For how long? Five minutes. What did she say to you this morning? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 33 A Just that Dr . DeJarnette would report next Tuesday and continue on with the work that you ' re doing . Q I see . Now , what will you say to the court about the program evaluations and assessments being embedded in the fabric of the school district? A That the IL- R is our comprehensive assessment process . Q I have asked a question . Would you respond to my question? Do you consider that responsive? BY MR . FINLEY : If you don ' t consider it responsive , ask him another question . BY MR . WALKER : Q Do you consider that responsive? A Yes , I do . IL- R is our comprehensive program assessment and it deeply embeds program evaluation in the Little Rock School District . Q When was that IL- R developed? A It was developed beginning with the meeting that Dr . Roberts and Dr . Karen DeJarnette had with Dr . Steve Ross per the request of the court . Q So that as of that date , the process was embedded? A No . Through work with - - Q I see . A If I recall, that process was approved by the school board in December of 2004 . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-511 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 34 Q When did the process become embedded in the fabric of the d i strict? Can you give me a date when it became embedded? A It would be embedded when the school board approved that deeply embedded program assessment process -- Q So that ' s all the school - - is it your opinion that all the school board had to do at that point was approve the resolution? That ' s yes or no . A Their approving the regulations formalizes the deeply embedded comprehensive program assessment process . Q So that ' s all tha t needed to be done? Is that your opinion? A The district regulations are the backbone of the institutionalization of all policies and procedures in the Little Rock School District . So , yes , that is the overriding central decision that had to be made by the district board of directors to formalize the deeply embedded program assessment process or to approve the comprehensive assessment process that institutionalizes program evaluation with the Little Rock School District . That was reaffirmed at the June , July board meeting with an affirmation to continue program assessment . The combination of those two pieces , the formalization as well as the institutionalization of the comprehensive program assessment process , followed up by a commitment to resolve -- I can ' t remember the exact name of that document -- a commitment to resolve that, irrespective of what happens this month , the BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 school district will continue to evaluate programs for the expressed outcome to determine the impact of those programs on the achievement of African- American s~udents . 35 Q So your position is that the only thing that is required is f or the board to pass a resolution and then to reinforce that resolution one time
is that fair to say? That ' s what is meant by embedding? A There were not two resolutions . One was approval to formally ins titutionalize program evaluation , i . e ., the comprehensive program assessment process within the structure of the Little Rock School District . You follow the regulations . Q I see . Are you familiar with IL- R? A Q A Q A Yes , I ' ve read it . What is meant by IL-R? Is that a board policy? It ' s a regulation . Is that a board policy? A policy/regulation , yeah . When you go to the website and look it up , that ' s what pops up . Q That ' s what pops up? A Well , you go to board -- go to the website and I think it ' s policies or something . Q Give me you opinion of the difference between a policy and a regulation . A A policy is a very broad stroke at something . Regulations are those things that will be implemented to address that broad BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 stroke . Q A Q Did the board approve IL- R? Yes , December of 2004 . That ' s my understanding . Or did the board approve I L? A It ' s IL- R. Q So you ' re not familiar with policy IL? 36 A That ' s the one from 2002 , I think . That ' s a former policy . Q All right . What i s meant by the term, in your opinion , to deeply embed , as used by the district court? A That an entity , an initiative , an idea is institutionalized . Q What does that mean? A That it becomes a part of the culture of an institution or entity . Q When did it become the culture -- when did program assessment -- the process that you say is underway become part of the culture of this school district? At what point? A When the board approved the regulations in December of 2004 , that institutionalized the process . Q I see . Doesn ' t part of the embedding process require that the principals be informed of it , school principals? That ' s yes or no . A My understanding , because I got something in the mail the other day , when the district approves a policy or regulation then that policy or regulation is sent to just about everybcay . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 So , yeah , I guess that ' s how they send that policy out to all the principals . Q Have you ever been in any meetings by PRE with all the principals of the school district regarding the evaluation and assessment process now underway? A Yes . There have been two meetings . Both of them -- yes , 37 there were two meetings . One in January 2005 and one in January of 2006 . Q Did you conduct those meetings? A No . Q Who did? A I think it was in conjunction with Dr . Steve Ross , because , actually , Steve Ross came over and discussed the programs to be evaluated , and then the whole team was there and talked , Dr . DeJarnette , Jim Wooleb , Tracy Robinson and myself . Q Did you speak? A Q A I recall I spoke a little bit , yeah . What did you speak about? I can ' t remember . I ' d have to go back and look at my -- I don ' t know . Q A Q A Q Who is the better -- you have some notes , you say? No , I don ' t . You said you had to get them . I know . I don ' t have any . I wanted those notes . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A I 'm sorry . I don ' t know why I said that . I don ' t have any . Q Okay . A I was thinking that they videotaped that but they didn ' t . I apologize for that mistake . Add a little humor there . I got your blood up -- Q It definitely did . Who is a better witness to talk about program evaluations in a comprehensive sense before the court , you or Dr . DeJarnette , in your opinion? A Given the communications and ongoing meetings we ' ve had, I think that any member of our team would be equally apt to give a good overview of that . I think Dr . DeJarnette would have an advantage because she has been the director for just about or right at two and half years . When you move up a level , you know you ' re what would you say -- you ' re privy to more inside and out ' s . I mean , she was privy to -- she met with Dr . Steve Ross and I didn ' t . I can ' t say actually was said in that meeting so , yeah , in a bigger picture , she could add in those nuances . Q Well , she had the responsibility for overseeing all these people in their various roles
didn ' t she? A Yes , she was the director . Q And you did not have that responsibility
did you? A That ' s correct . Q I see . So you are giving an opinion based on your observations of those other co-workers ' activities rather than intimate knowledge in association with it
isn ' t that fair to BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 l 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 39 say? A No , I -- the comments I made were based on the fact that Dr . DeJarnette was privy to more conversations with people involved like Dr . Roberts , Steve Ross , Dr . Catterall than the team was as whole . What I did say was there no reason that non~ of the team members couldn ' t give a very good overview of tha~ process . Q Are you saying that Maurecia Robinson can give the same overview of the process as you? That ' s yes or no . A I see no reason why not . She was involved in all the team meetings and she was privy to all the same information that I was . Q She never spoke with Ms . Springer
did she? A I don ' t know . Q And you never spoke with Ms . Springer so you can ' t give the same overviews , as Ms . Springer has so much knowledge about process . You understand that she supposedly has a lot of information about the process
right? A Who? Q Ms . Springer . A Q I presume that she would , yes . I see . Have you read Ms . Springer ' s affidavit in this matter? A I have read a affidavit and I 'm -- oh , the one that was supplied as a court document? I think there are couple of BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 40 affidavits out there . Q Can you say yes or no to the following : That Ms . Springer regularly brought to the attention of the PRE a need for program assessment to be comprehensive , focused and deeply embedded into the district ' s curriculum and instructional programs? Did she do that? A Q A I don ' t ever recall Ms . Springer using that terminology . That ' s fine . What terminology did she use? I 'm just trying to think of the comments she made . I think the comments she made were concerned about in some of the meetings we like the pre-Kone , that ' s one she asked about making sure we had a program description in there . I 'm trying to think what else she said . I don ' t recall her using that extensive terminology in terms of comments made in the meetings . Q You don ' t want to rely on your memory for what took place at any of those meetings
do you? A Q A Q We have notes of the meetings . You do have notes? Who has notes of the meetings? They're in quarterly reports . Other than the quarterly reports , are there any other notes? A Not that I'm aware of . Q I see . Those notes don ' t address what Ms . Springer said
do they? A I'd have to go back and look at the quarterly reports on BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 41 what was said but I thought there were comments in there , you know , Joshua asked this question and made a comment . I thought they were in there but I ' d have to go back and re - read them . Q Were questionnaires to be used as a part of the comprehensive assessment process of the court or required by the court? A The judge required that the data that we gathered not be only test data and that we gather a wide range of different types of data to use in that process . Survey ' s would have been one of those pieces . Q I see . Was that done before the fall of 2006? A Oh , yeah . Q So you disagree with Ms . Springer when she says it is further noted that the use of questionnaires , which the cour~ expected, Page 62 , footnote 39 of the Compliance Remedy to be a part of the comprehensive assessment process , will not be undertaken until the fall of 2006? Do you disagree with that? A When I read that -- Q Do you disagree is my question . That ' s all . I 'm not asking for an explanation . Do you disagree with her -- A Well , I have to - - if I 'm going to answer that then I need to answer with an explanation. Q Well , you can but , first of all , you can tell me whether you agree or disagree . That ' s my only question . Do you disagree with Ms . Springer? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR . FINLEY : He can also do neither . or disagree. BY MR . WALKER : Q You can say neither . That ' s fine . 42 He doesn ' t have to agree Say neither . A I presume -- yes , because I presume what she meant dealt with the district portfolio but we have using surveys . Surveys have been an intrical part of all -- yes , all eight program evaluations so we started those surveys . If that ' s what she meant then the answer is no . If she was talking about surveys used in the eight program evaluations - - because using surveys in all eight program evaluations So you disagree with her . That ' s fine . Well , I mean , I 'm uncertain what she meant . we ' ve been Q A Q That ' s fine . Now , do you disagree with her that PRE contemplated the use of a data warehouse to either supplant or complement the use of a portfolio assessment for embedding the comprehensive assessment process into the instruction program? Do you agree or disagree with that? A That the data warehouse would supplant or what? Q A Q Complement . Complement. One or the other . The use of the portfolio assessment for embedding the comprehensive assessment process into the instruction program . Do you disagree? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q A I don ' t agree with that whole statement , no . That ' s fine . What is your disagreement? Portfolio assessment . It ' s not an assessment . process . Well assessment is a process
isn ' t it? It ' s a Q A A lot of things are a process . A portfolio is not an assessment . In that terminology , the portfolio is our process but , yes , the data warehouse can compliment and it does complement the district portfolio . Q Did Dr . DeJarnette not indicate that this data base would not be ready for some time after June 13th , 2006? A I don ' t recall her ever saying that to me . Q When will the data warehouse be ready? A The data warehouse was up and running at the end of July 2006 . Q Was Dr . DeJarnette aware of that? A I presume . She attended one of three days of training on the use of the data warehouse in the middle of July . Q A Q Did you attend that training? Yes , sir . Who else attended the training from PRE? A Maurecia Robinson , Jim Wooleb , myself . Dr . DeJarnette, like I said , attended one of three days of training . What was in the data warehouse at that time? 43 Q A We had the student demographic universe set up . I think we BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 44 had the financial informat i on , we had Crystal Reports , there was another it was just called Demographics , I think , Universe . There were some other ones also but they weren ' t appropriate for what we would use them for . There was like -- I think when I popped it up in July , there were like eight universes . Q I see . When were those universes created? A Over a period of time . From the time the school district brought in a consultant to normalize the data . When was that? I don ' t recall that exactly . What year was it? I think it was early 2006 . Q A Q A Q I see . So at least , as of early 2006 , the data were not available for use in embedding the process at least in any comprehensive form? A No . Q They were not? A Yes , the data was available . Q But it was in many sources at that time? A No , it was in -- most of the data that the district has that is embedded is stored in the district ' s mainframe computer , which we call the AS400 . That data has always been available . By the way , we ' ve had Crystal Reports since 1992 . Q I see . So there was no real need for a data warehouse then , was there? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q Yes , there was . What is the reason? If you had all this data available , why would you need a new data warehouse? A Have you ever bought a garden house that ' s a half- inch 45 diameter and turn it on and it takes 10 minutes to fill that bucket of water? Then you go out and buy that one - inch diameter water house and it takes a minute to fill that bucket of water . Which one would you rather have? That ' s the analogy to using the AS400 compared to the data warehouse . When we did data requests for the program assessments or program evaluations , it usually took a week to get the data . With the data warehouse, seconds . Q Were you familiar with the data warehouse that was completed by Dr . Burnhart . A Other than just some sales presentations , no . Q Was she trying to make a sale? A She talked about it while were out in California and she invited - - the people from Tetra-Data attended that meeting . Q Did you ever inform anybody in the school district that she had a financial interest in selling this particular program? A I don ' t - - I know she ' s on the board of Tetra or was o~ board . Tetra was sold and I think she still has some kind of relationship with the company . She was on the board of directors of Tetra so I don ' t know what kind of -- if they were paid to be on the board or not so - - BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Did you ever have a discussion regarding this with either Mr . Heller or Dr . Brooks or Dr . Roberts? A Q That she was on the board? Yes A No . I know Karen , at a meeting that we had with Mr . 46 Hattabaugh and Dr . Roberts , told them that she was on the board . Dr . DeJarnette told them that she was on the board . Q Did she say she was on the board or did she say that she was on an advisory board? A I don ' t recall . Q A I see . Now that Tetra has been sold , maybe it ' s just an advisory board . Q A Q How do you know Tetra was sold? I went to their web page and it said they were sold . I see . When did you learn that? A About a month or a month and a half ago . They were sold this summer in July or August to another larger software company . Q So that means - - do you know whether Dr . Burnhart went with the sale? A Yeah , because her name was associated with the new company ' s web page dealing with Tetra . Q What did it say about her? A I don ' t recall . I ' d have to go back and look . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 47 Q But whatever it said allowed you to conclude that she was a part of the managing group of Tetra - Data? A Well , she was involved with Tetra - Data . I don ' t know what her roles and responsibilities were . Q Do you agree with Mrs . Springer that there are various factors which suggest that the vision of the current administration of LRSD de - emphasis the importance of PRE and the Compliance Remedy? A No , I don ' t agree with that . Q I see . Do you agree that , in March of 2005 , PRE did nc. any longer report to the superintendent? A The reorganization , I think , was effective July 1 of 2005 so , no , I don ' t agree with that statement . Q I see . Do you agree that Dr . Roberts and Dr . Brooks imposed additional responsibilities upon PRE that diminished the ability of PRE staff to make the Compliance Remedy their major focus? A I don ' t agree with that statement . Q What additional -- do you agree that there were some additional responsibilities imposed upon PRE afcer the tP~ of the year 2006? A Based on my interpretation of job descriptions , there were no additional job responsibilities imposed . Q I see . No adaitional tests placed by those people upon PRE? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q A You mean in addition to our work on the Compliance Repcrc~ Yes . Yes, we had other jobs . Like I said , my interpretation of my job description , those were not additional . of our job , the work we did . They were part Q Did you have - - do you agree that the responsibilities that were placed upon PRE included the preparation of school improvement plans for a large number of schools as well as developing and carrying out surveys required as a part of the school improvement effort? Do you disagree with that? A I disagree with the terminology . Q But do you disagree with the substance of it , whatever the terms used? A Q A We did do some additional surveys . The question is : Do you disagree? That ' s all . I don ' t agree with the way the statement is written . I mean, there are some truths and non-truths in there , I think . Q Now , going back to your water hose analysis , with a small water hose you can only account for so many students , is that fair to say? A It had nothing to do with -- the analogy had nothing to do with that . It had to do with speed . Q Well , I understand . But the speed relates to students and it relates to student data
doesn ' t it? A With modern computers and dealing with that kind of binary BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 49 data or that kind of data , the numbers -- in other words , to transport 2 million pieces of data is milli , milli , milliseconds compared to hours . There ' s a blink of an eye to transfer a million versus a hundred thousand . Q Well , why was it so important for you all to spend -- if your data system was adequate , why was it so necessary for Dr . Roberts and the others to try to implement this new data system? BY MR . FINLEY : I 'm going to object to the form . BY MR . WALKER : Q You can still answer . A When I 'm talking about speed , I 'm talking about the speed I can get from the IRC . It ' s called a pipeline . Now , if I worked downtown , there I could get the data just as quickly but - - in other words , if I worked downtown and we didn ' t have the pipeline -- well , actually , the AS400 now is out at Metro. worked at Metro , I could get the data because that ' s where~:.~ AS400 is . Q Well , why is there such a controversy about which data source to use? BY MR . FINLEY : What do you mean by data source? BY MR . WALKER : If he can answer the question , that means he -BY THE WITNESS : BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 j 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 50 I think he means Tetra - Data via Business Objects . BY MR . WALKER : Q You can answer . A The district has had a long standing relationship with Business Objects . We ' ve used Crystal Reports for a number of years , since 1992 . When I came on in '98 , within a few years there was a discussion about doing some kind of data warehouse and we talked with -- most of our discussions dealt with NCS , that ' s who makes the AS400 . There were then discussions aoc, doing a data warehouse , prior to 2004 when Dr . Karen DeJarnette was hired as director of PRE . One of the ideas that she brought in or one of the concepts she brought in was to fully implement a data warehouse . The idea to implement a data warehouse in its current state is Dr . DeJarnette ' s idea . Q Do you disagree with it? A No . Q Do you find utility in it? A Yes . Q Do you support it? A Yes . Q Is it necessary and important? A It ' s necessary and important in that it makes my job mu ch quicker . It ' s not necessary -- I mean , we can get the data if we want to wait for it by using a radar request through our information services department . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 51 Q You are aware that a number of errors showed up in some data being submitted to the outside evaluators
is that fair to say? A Q I 'm not clear what you ' re talking about . Do you recall taking responsibility for passing on faulty data to the evaluators? A Q A I 'm not aware of any faulty data that I passed on . That ' s fine . All the data that I passed on was approved by Dr . Karen DeJarnette . Q So if she says otherwise , y ' all have a difference of opinion? A When we did the data cleanup for the Benchmark data , I sent her the data cleanup files and asked her permission to send the data cleanup files in . That was our last chance to clea~ - data . She gave me her permission to send those cleanup data files in . So when the data files are available , yes , they had her permission . They had her approval that they could be sent on to the evaluators . Q Did you previously send data to the evaluators? A Yes . One of my roles was to do that . Q Now , had you sent data that had not been cleaned up to the evaluators? A All the data we sent to the evaluators , we made what we felt was a reasonable attempt to make sure that it was clean a nci BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 52 appropriate data . Q When you say we are you talking about you and somebody else or are you talking about yourself? A Well , no , Mr . Wooleb was involved in some of the databases that were sent out . Q Isn ' t it fair to say that on one occasion you were so busy that when some data came in that you , without checking it, forwarded it on to the evaluators? A I don ' t I 'm not saying it didn ' t happen but I don ' t recall . I don ' t recall that occurring. Q Is it fair to say that you have a reputation for being careless with your work? A No one has ever said that to me , no . Q What is the process for providing data to the evaluators? A The protocol for that begins with discussions with the, in the case , with the external evaluators to determine the types of data that they need to complete the program evaluation. Da~ a , based on those discussions and those agreements , as that data became available then it was sent to the external evaluators . Q As it became available to you? A Q Yes . Available to the PRE Department , yes . Did you share that data with Dr . DeJarnette at that point when it became available to you or did you send it on directly , yourself , to the outside evaluators? A If I recall , all the databases that I sent to the outside BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 evaluators were also sent to Dr . DeJarnette . Q You recall that? But you sent them to the outside evaluators before clearing it with her
did you not? A No . If we ' re talking about the data that was cleaned up the last cleanup I asked her if it was appropriate to send in the cleanup data files , which would signify that that was the last opportunity to clean the data and she gave that approval . Yes , she approved - - when the data was available , she had already given her approval that the data was cleaned so I sent it off . Q A Q Have you ever spoken personally with Dr . Catterall? Yes , I have . Have you ever met with Dr . Catterall personally? A Yes , I have . Q Has he expressed an opinion about whether the evaluation process has been embedded? 53 A I don ' t recall that part of the discussion that I had with him . Q A Have you ever had such a conversation with Dr . Ross? No , not that I recall. Q How do you know that PRE notified ODM and Joshua of the names of the eight programs selected for evaluation? How do you know that? A As I recall , I think that was a team meeting with Dr. DeJarnette. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 I 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 54 Q Were you present in that meeting? A Yes . I mean, I think in general she just made a comment like , yeah , we made the choices now and make sure you notify the proper people . Q Did you participate in making those choices? A In making the choices? Q Yes . A I offered feedback on -- yes . Q Did you participate in making the choices? Feedback is different from being involved in the decision- making
isn ' t it? A No . Q All right . What else will you tell the court when you testify as the district ' s expert witness? A Well , if asked to , I will describe in as much detail as I can recollect I will describe in detail with our compliance with the court ' s remedy. Q All right . Tell me what else you have done to comply with the court ' s remedy than what you ' ve already set forth that any member of the team can explain as well as you , as you said earlier . Did you not say that? A Yeah . I mean Q What else can you say? A What else can I say that the other team members can? Since they were privy to -- at least the other two team members were privy -- I 'm talking about Mr . Wooleb and Ms . Robinson -- they BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 55 were privy to the same information in terms of team meetings and the whole process . There would be an expectation that they could also describe to the court our process in complying with that remedy . Q I want you to go ahead and tell me the rest of what you will say in court . What else will you say about complying with the remedy? A Okay . I ' ll talk about revitalizing the PRE Department . We'll talk about choosing the year one and year two Step II Program evaluations . We ' ll talk about the process of how those evaluations were conducted and our interaction with the exterior evaluators . We ' ll talk about the comprehensive program assessment process was developed and institutionalized, deeply embedded by the school board ' s actions. We ' ll talk about our quarterly reports to the board . We ' ll talk about making sure that ODM and Joshua were properly notified per the remedy . Q Will you talk about the fact that the testing coordinator position was left open for approximately a year? A I don ' t think it was -- was it that long? Q Let ' s say six months . A If asked , yeah . Q I see . Was that testing coordinator position importanL L~ the work of the PRE? A Q Yes . Would six months hiatus in having that position unfilled BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 affect the work of PRE , in your opinion? A Given the timing of the six month hiatus , continuous , it was -- no . It wouldn ' t affect the work of PRE? Not when that position was vacant , no . it wasn ' t Q A Q I see . There was a period when a Mr . Olds was hired as a replacement for the testing coordinator
isn ' t that correct? A Yes . 56 Q Do you agree or disagree that he resigned after about three months on the job? A Q I disagree . That ' s fine . Do you disagree that as of October of last year -- as of September of last year , the testing coordinator position had not been filled? A I agree . Q A Q A Do you disagree that that was important to the process? That there was no one there in September? Yes . No , it didn ' t impede the process , the assessment process . Q Now , is there a vacant position now for a statistician? A I wouldn ' t call it vacant . They have applied for an additional statistician , yes . Q A Q I see . How many statisticians are there right now? There are three . You and who else? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Mr . Wooleb and Ms . Robinson . Q I see . Who made the decision to ask for a fourth one? A I 'm uncertain . When the announcement was posted , I asked Dr . Roberts and she informed me it was an additional statistician . Q Who made the decision that it was necessary? I don ' t know . Is it , in your opinion , necessary? I think it would be extremely helpful , yes . Would it have been an extremely helpful a year ago? 57 A Q A Q A No . The department was capable -- given the frame up that we were under a year ago , we had adequate staff . Q What changed it then to make it more helpful now than a year ago? A Well , the fact that we are picking up -- we are doing the modified assessments of the year one and then we will be doing the year two and then , of course , the deeply embedded process . Q So you need more staff to deeply embed something? A Q A Q No . You don ' t? We need more staff to implement that . Well , isn ' t deeply embedding also involved with implementation? A Deeply embedding is the institutionalization of a process or initiative . That is different than implementation . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Do you know anything about how the process of the evaluations will be conducted in the future? A Yes , I do . Q What will happen in the future? A We will follow the comprehensive program assessment process . Q Will you continue to use outside evaluators? A I f that is an option , yes . Q Well , wait a minute . What is your understanding of what will happen? Will you be using outside evaluators or will you be using inside evaluators? A If you read the comprehensive program assessment process, 58 the role of the external evaluator is determined by the team so the role could be anywhere from a technical writer to actually completely the evaluations , like was done with Steve Ross and James Catterall . It depends on the evaluation team . That ' s a decision by the team to make . So, yes , it could run the whole continuum of being advisor to doing the whole process . there ' s seven or eight in the IR-L . I think Q Well , if there is a present need for another statistician , would not there have been a need six months ago for another statistician? BY MR . FINLEY : Object to the form . BY MR. WALKER : BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 59 Q You can answer . A Given the way the court remedy was where we -- the decision about the role of the external evaluator was decided by the court that , no , we had adequate staff to complete the court compliance remedy . Q You had adequate staff then so what happened in the intervening six months to make you not have adequate staff to complete it? BY MR . FINLEY : Object to the form . BY MR . WALKER : Q What has changed in that six month period? That would be between September and now , August and now . A Well , we just recently have completed the last program evaluation done by an external evaluator and , as we had said in both quarterly seven and eight , that we will continue on with modified , feasible and ongoing assessments of those eight program evaluations . That has changed. That is a major change . We ' re taking on that role that we didn't have in the past. Q Has ODM staff expressed to you a view that there is a problem with compliance in embedding program assessments into the curriculum and instructional programs of the district as contemplated by the court? A I don't recall either one of the individuals saying that to me. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q Do you know whether they ' ve said that to Dr . DeJarnette? No . I was not privy to that conversation . Tell me what Mr . Gene Jones has said to you about ODM ' s observations regarding program evaluation . 60 A The only thing I recall was it was an off - the - cuff comment about how we should be able to get out of court this time . Q When did he say that? A In the hallway . We were walking to a meeting , I think . Q You and who? You and Mr . Jones? A Gene was behind me . I think we were in a meeting with our departmental team and the meeting was finished and we were walking out and he made that comment . Q Who else was present? A Q A I think Karen DeJarnette , Mr . Wooleb , Maurecia Robinson . What did Dr . DeJarnette say? I don ' t recall . Q Have you met with Mr . Gene Jones as team outside the presence of Joshua regarding compliance? A Q Yes , I believe so . When did you do so? A I don ' t know the exact date . I think that day was one of them . Q What month was that? Approximately what time period was it? A It was probably in the spring of this year . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q The spring of Yeah . I 'm sorry . Spring of 2006 . Are you are that Dr . DeJarnette , upon learning that an extension of time was necessary to file certain reports , made contact with Mr . Heller regarding that? 61 A Yes , I believe that there was conversation with Mr. Heller about the fact that we probably, because the fact the data wasn ' t going to be here in time , that we possibly needed to file for an extension. Q A Q A Q A I see . Do you know what Mr . Heller ' s reaction to that was? He filed an extension . He did? That ' s my understanding . Did he promptly do so? I couldn ' t tell you when it was . timely manner . I mean , he did it in a Q What ' s the most positive thing you can say about Dr. DeJarnette ' s leadership of PRE? A Dr . DeJarnette brought in two good ideas : the data warehouse and the portfolio, and she had knowledge in working with the people that developed those and I thought those would be very helpful in supporting the infrastructure of our comprehensive program assessment process . Q What's the most positive thing you can say about her administration of the department? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 l 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 62 A She assessed the individual qualities of each of the people in the department and delegated work to those people based on those assessments . Q What ' s the most positive thing you can say about her evaluation of the staff of the PRE? A I ' ve been evaluated once . I mean , I don ' t understand that question . Q That ' s fine . A Q A She evaluated us , yeah . Did you object to her evaluation of you? No . Q What ' s the most negative thing you can say about Dr . DeJarnette ' s administration of the PRE Department? A I ' ve never framed my relationship with Dr. DeJarnette in that manner . Q So you can ' t say anything negative about her administration of the department? A About her administration of - - Q What ' s the most negative thing you can say about her qualifications? A I read her vitae . She ' s qualified to be the director . Q What is the most negative thing yo can say about her administration of the PRE Department? A Q I just never framed my relationship with her in that way . What's the most negative thing you can say about Dr . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DeJarnette in any way? A You ' re asking for a personal opinion there . Q Yes , sir , I am . That ' s the only opinion you can give because there is not district position on that
is there? So what is your opinion? A I ' ve never really formed an opinion of Dr . DeJarnette . Q Well , form one now . What is your most negative opinion regarding her that you may be called upon to give in front of the court . A I guess on two occasions she said she was going to do something or she said she wasn ' t going to do something and I think it was two occasions that she didn ' t. Q What were those two occasions and what did she do? A She wasn ' t going to send the e-mail of the compliance 63 history report to the board . She told me that flat out and she did it . The other thing was something similar to that . Q When did she tell you that? A I thinks he told me on a Wednesday or a Thursday and sent it out on Friday . Q Do you know what intervened between the time you had the conversation and that Friday? A No . Q Did she tell you why she wasn ' t going to send an e-mail to the board? A I 'm sorry? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q What was the reason that she told you that she would not send the e - mail to the board? A She had asked my opinion and I told her that I thought it was a carthetic event and that she shouldn ' t send it and she agreed with me on that . Q What was it that she was sending? A Pardon me? Q What was it that she ultimately sent to the board? mail was that? A It was an Adobe file . It was three pages long and it talked about -- I think it was titled History of Compliance or something like that . Q A Q Is this the document? Yeah . I think that is it , yeah . It looks like it is . I want you to go through this compliance history and tell me what - - first of all , had this compliance history been compiled by PRE? A No . Q Who compiled this? 64 A It was my understanding that it was compiled by Mr . Wooleb and Dr . DeJarnette . Q A Did you disagree with it? Yes. Q Did you disagree with the contents of it or did you disagree with the wisdom of sharing it? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Both . Q I see . I want you to go through this and bring my attention to the ones that you disagreed with , starting with Page 1 . BY MR . WALKER : We ' ll attach this as an exhibit . (Exhibit 1 marked for identification) BY MR . WALKER : Go ahead when you ' re ready . 65 Q A Okay . la . Dr . DeJarnette was on the committee that worked on the reorganization and it was her decision to do away with the secretary and the two people that were eliminated . Q Who told you that it was her decision? A She did . Q She told you it was her decision? A Q A Q A Q A Q She was on the committee and she wanted it done . She wanted it done? That ' s fine . Did she telt you that? I recollect her saying that , yeah . Okay . Go ahead . What else? lb , inadequate staff . That's on Pagel? Yes . lb . All right . That ' s fine . A That is not my understanding of whac happened with Mr5 Dillingham . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 66 Q Okay . What else? A 2a . We do have a policy for managing data that begins when students register with the school district . There ' s a policy for registration . 2b is spurious . There ' s no evidence there to indicate -- where ' s the evidence that we have any data errors? Q What else? A C is -- why didn ' t Karen check and correct any old dac~ : Q When you had this conversation with Dr . DeJarnette , was it just the two of you or was Mr . Wooleb present when she said she wouldn ' t send it to the board? A I don ' t know who all was present . Mr . Wooleb may have been present . Q I see . So it becomes a question of recollection
doesn ' t it? Your recollection versus hers and his? A Yes , obviously . Most of this is . Q All right . Go ahead . We ' re on Page 2 now , number three . And you ' re telling me what you disagree with as a fact in her compliance history . A 3a , I 'm not aware of LRSD rejecting our plans to implement the data warehouse . at the end of July . In fact , the data warehouse was implemented Q Go ahead . What ' s next? A 3b. Data is data . Crystal Reports -- actually, Business Objects is actually used by school districts around the nation . In fact , I talked to one . I think it ' s Norfolk , Virginia that BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 uses Business Objects , same as we do . 67 3e, it ' s my understanding in talking with Richie Robinson , because she attended a meeting on those surveys , when she ' s talking about the surveys for Education for the Future , there is no validity or reliability on those surveys . 3f , I am not aware of any attempt by the Little Rock School District to oppose the project of doing wellness priority in the annual ACSIP plans . 4a , Dr . DeJarnette early on routinely asked Counsel Heller to review the updates and to make changes as necessary so any changes made on the 8th quarterly were just an extension of other changes that were made in other quarterly reports . Q Were you present when she asked Counsel Heller those things? A Q A I saw e-mails . Are those e - mails the best evidence of your recollection? Uh huh . Q All right. A I 'm not aware that the board did not receive copies of the draft of the 8th quarterly . In fact , 4c actually says that , PRE sent its original version to ODM and Joshua when sending it to the board for its review . Q A Let me just run through this . Do you disagree with~ ~~ You got to let me read it. Given that I did not ha ve ~ . conversations with Joshua , other than within the team meetings, I can't address the fact that there ever was a chill or the BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 68 chill went away or whatever it was . My only interaction with Joshua was in team meetings and then passing in the hall and saying hello . I did not experience any lessening of responsiveness from LRSD ' s counsel . I disagree with b . I don ' t think it was at odds with the remedy . LRSD - - okay -- Sc . L?SD Q A Do you disagree with it? I don ' t disagree with it but they ' re not part of the evaluation teams , Joshua and ODM are not part of the evaluation team . Q A Q It doesn ' t say that . C doesn ' t say that
does it? I 'm just clarifying my answer . I understand that . I 'm asking if you disagree with it and it simply says LRSD and its counsel attended few evaluation sessions of which PRE notified Joshua , ODM , LRSD and its counsel . Do you disagree with that? A Joshua attended few -- I told you they only attended 30 percent of the year ones . It improved in year two . Where is the data to support that? Q We ' re just asking what you disagreed with . You understand this came from the compliance history that was submitted in the draft report . Now , obviously you ' re at odds with the people who prepared the compliance history
aren't you? BY MR . HELLER : I 'm going to object to the form of that question. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR . WALKER : Q Let me put it another way so there won ' t be -BY MR . HELLER : My only point is , what draft? This wasn ' t part of the compliance history in any draft report . BY MR . WALKER : Q Well , let me ask you : Did you participate in developing this compliance history? No , I did not . Okay . Did she share it with you? A Q A Yes , she did . We had a discussion and she agreed with me that it was a carthetic event . Q Did she use the term carthetic? A I said that and she agreed with me . Q I see . Is that a term you normally use , Dr . Williams? A I am a licensed professional counselor . Q I understand but is that a term you normally use in your every day conversations? Yeah . Carthesis is term that I use very appropriate. 69 A Q I see . Let ' s go back . You also applied for this position that she got and you were upset when you didn ' t get it
is 1. that correct? A Q No . That ' s fine . Now , you ' ve got a pay increase coming as a result of taking over the interim position
don't you? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q A I was notified on -Yesterday? -- yeah --that would probably occur , yeah . Q You were also notified that you could expect to be the director as of yesterday , weren ' t you? A No . 70 Q I see . Are you disappointed that you won ' t be the director now? A Q A Q her? A Q A No. Do you think you can work with Dr. DeJarnette? Yes . Even though you ' re saying all these negative things about These are not negative things about her . I see . Let ' s go on . As I stated , this is a carthetic letter , something that you write because of the feelings you are experiencing at the time . Typically, it has a very therapeutic -- typically , it would have a very therapeutic benefit to it . Q Are you a psychologist? A No , I'm not . Q That ' s just an opinion
isn't it? A No . I ' m a licensed professional counselor. Psychotherapist. Q Are you trying to give a psychotherapist's opinion to her BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537~5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 71 regarding her conduct? A No . I am not her psychotherapist . Q Do you agree that the relations between -- this is Number 7 A Q A Q A Q LRSD and the PRE ' s director deteriorated? Where are we? Number 7 . Do you agree with that? My experience Yes or no . I don ' t agree with that . No , I don ' t . I understand . Do you know if she was threatened with dismissal by the superintendent? Can you answer that? A I never heard the superintendent threaten her with dismissal . Q A Q Were you present at any cabinet meetings? Have I been to any cabinet meetings? Were you present in any cabinet meetings where she was present? A No . Q A I see . Well, one . There was one cabinet meeting I was pr':::'3.,': when she was present . Q Do you disagree that LRSD counsel was unresponsive and evasive to her? A Q I disagree with that . Okay . Was LRSD counsel responsive and unevasive to you BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 when you had contact with them? A The very , very few times that I responded to Mr . Heller, was responsive to me . Q Do you know whether she engaged her own law firm to give her advice? A She said she had engaged an attorney , yes . Q Are you aware that she filed a grievance with the LRSD Human Resource Department? A Yes , Karen told us that she filed a grievance . 72 ,__ - !.i.C:: Q Do you disagree with her recommendation that it ' s important that first of all , for restoration of administrative support , in addition to test coordinators based upon a review of responsibilities , requires an administrative assistant? A Q A It ' s my understanding from what she told me -Do you disagree? That was her decision to eliminate the administrative assistant ' s job so -- Q A Q She told you that? Yes . I see . Was anybody -- oh , you said you don ' t -- that was just one-on-one between you and her? A I believe there were other people present , Mr. Wooleb and Ms . Robinson and then the committee members . Q So basically , you didn't agree with this compliance history that was prepared by her and Mr . Wooleb? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q A In general , no , I did not agree wi~h it , no . I see . Now , did you prepare your own compliance history? No , I did not . 73 Q Have you prepared any writing to aid her in addressing the difficulties that she was obviously experiencing with the administration and/or Mr . Heller? A She didn ' t ask me to write anything and I didn ' t really experience -- Q Did you offer any advice to her regarding those matters? A Q A Yes . What advice did you offer to her? When we read the original the compliance report , we felt that there were some inaccuracies , possible inaccuracies in that compliance report that Attorney Heller had written . My advice was to write a very terse and direct e-mail to Mr . Heller explaining our concerns . She did that . She got an immediate reply from Mr . Heller . Q I see . So you ' re basically saying that you wouldn ' t have taken the actions that she took if you were the director A What I 'm saying is that I did not experience - - Q Please , listen to my question. Are you saying that you , based on what you know , would not have taken the actions or made the comments that she made had you been the director of the PRE Department? BY MR . FINLEY : BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 ~ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 What actions and comments are we talking about? Would he have drafted the compliance history? BY MR . WALKER : 74 Yes . Thank you , Mr . Finley , you ' ve been helpful . BY THE WITNESS : I was not the director and I am not a fortune teller . I have no idea how I would have responded as director . I do have extensive management experience but I 'm not sure how I would have performed in the last two years . BY MR . WALKER : Q All right . Do you know whether LRSD had a definitive plan for the use of assessments being generated by the Compass Learning Program? A The Compass Learning Program generates results in data and that data -- Q My question -- I 'm not asking you to explain . Do you know it ' s simple -- do you know whether LRSD has a definitive plan for the use of assessments being generated by the Compass Learning Program? Do you know? A I don ' t know if they ' re using the data though . Q All right . Do you know whether the school administration has kept Joshua and ODM timely informed of the activities of PRE? Do you know? A Yes , via the quarterly reports . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Only by the quarterly reports? Is it your position that the only information Joshua was to get was in the quarterly reports? A Oh , no . Q I see . A You asked me how they were informed . Q All right . Now , is it your understanding that Joshua was supposed to be provided the same information as ODM? A It says right in here that as things evolve and as things are produced that we are to notify ODM and Joshua as those things evolve . Q Now , what information in PRE did you all have that can be said to be privileged and not shared with Joshua? What public information was it that you all generated that was not to be shared with Joshua? A I can ' t think of anything off- hand that would be public information that we wouldn ' t share with Joshua because it ' s public . Q Let me ask you this then : What is the harm in Joshua talking to you or Dr . DeJarnette regarding this information? BY MR . FINLEY : Object to the form . BY MR . WALKER : You can still answer . 75 Q A In an evaluation team meeting it would be appropriate since BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 I 3 I 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you were an invited guest . Q Wait a minute . What about one - on- one? Let me put it another way . Let ' s assume somebody is just a patron , Walter Hussman , for instance , and he comes and asks you what is going on with respect to PRE , can you tell him? 76 A I would , first of all , Walter Hussman has never done that . Q Well , let ' s assume it ' s Walter Hussman . If he did that , would you tell him what he asked? It being public information? A If it ' s public information , yeah , I would discuss it with him . Q I see. Well , why would you tell Walter Hussman and not John Walker? A It was my inLerpretation that the attorneys representing Joshua are adversarial . Q That ' s right . BY MR . WALKER : I have no more questions . Thank you . CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR . HELLER : Q Referring to Exhibit 1 , Paragraph 3g , do you disagree with that statement? A Yes. LRSD has not impeded compliance with embedding assessment . Q That ' s your position? A Yes . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 I 1 2 = 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 77 Q Okay . I want to look at Paragraph Sc of the same document where Dr . DeJarnette reported that LRSD and its counsel attended few evaluation sessions . Who is LRSD? A It ' s about 4 , 000 employees . Q Okay . Well , of those 4 , 000 employees , were there several of them at every single evaluation session? A Yes . Q So it ' s true that LRSD attended every evaluation session? A Yes , if LRSD is defined as all the employees , yes . Q Do you understand that PRE is a separate entity outside of LRSD? A No . BY MR . HELLER : That ' s all I have . WHEREUPON , the deposition concluded at 1 p .m., January 9th , 2007 . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 78 C E R T I F I C A T E STATE OF ARKANSAS )ss COUNTY OF LONOKE I , KELLY S . ADCOCK , Certified Court Reporter and Notary Public , do hereby certify that the facts stated by me in the caption on the foregoing proceedings are true
and that the foregoing proceedings were recorded verbatim through the use of the Stenomask and thereafter transcribed by me or under my direct supervision to the best of my ability , taken at the time and place set out on the caption hereto . I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither counsel for , related to , nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which these proceedings were taken
and further , that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties hereto , nor financially interested~ or otherwise , in the outcome of this action . WITNESS MY HAND AND SEAL this 14th day of January , 2007 . KELLY ,IS . '11.DCOCK Certified Court Reporter My Commission Expires : #643 04/15/14 BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110
This project was supported in part by a Digitizing Hidden Special Collections and Archives project grant from The Andrew W. Mellon Foundation and Council on Library and Information Resources.

<dcterms_creator>Bushman Court Reporting</dcterms_creator>