Little Rock School District, plaintiff vs. Pulaski County Special School District. Herbert Walberg, a research professor of education at the University of Illinois in Chicago and consultant
This transcript was created using Optical Character Recognition and may contain some errors.
l 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, WESTERN DIVISION ) ) l Plaintiffs, ) Office of Desegr ga11on Mona1.1,uiw ) vs. PULASKI COUNTY SPECIAL SCHOOL DISTRICT NO. 1, et al. , Defendants. ) ) No. LRC 82-866 ) ) ) ) ) ) The deposition of HERBERT J. WALBERG, called by the Plaintiff for examination, taken pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure of the United States District Courts pertaining to the taking of depositions, taken before THERESE A. KOZEL, a Notary Public within and for the County of Cook, State of Illinois, and a Certified Shorthand Reporter of said state, at Suite 900, 208 South LaSalle Street, Chicago, Illinois, on the 26th day of July, A.O. 1984, at 3:30 p.m. <'Wo[f I!., c:Ro~l!.nbvc-9 and df-~waia.tu, [Jna . (!J
_c,,."90, !flllnol~ e (312) 782-8087 tack 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 PRESENT: KAPLAN, BREWER & MILLER, P.A., (Metro Centre Mall, 415 Main Street, Little Rock, Arkansas 72201), by: MR. PHILIP E. KAPLAN, -and- MS. JANET L. PULLIAM, (Suite 350, Gazette Building, 112 West Third, Little Rock, Arkansas 72201), appeared on behalf of the Plaintiff: MESSRS. FRIEDMAN & KOVEN, (208 South LaSalle Street, Chicago, Illinois 60604), by: MS. MAREE SNEED, appeared on behalf of the Defendant Pulaski County Special School District No. 1: MESSRS. HOUSE, WALLACE & JEWELL, (1500 Tower Building, Little Rock, Arkansas 72201), by: MR. EDWARD G. ADCOCK, appeared on behalf of the Defendant North Little Rock School District. REPORTED BY: THERESE A. KOZEL, c.s.R. <wo[fe., c.Ro~e.nCe."9 and df~waiate.~, [/n.a. t!hlc.~o, fJt(inol~ (312) 782-8087 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 W--IT-N--ES-S-HERBERT By By By NUMBER I N D E X J. WALBERG Mr. Kaplan Ms. Sneed Mr. Adcock E X H I B I T S NO EXHIBITS MARKED. 3 DX ex ROX RCX 4 62 87 80 MARKED FOR ID <'WoffI! ., c::Rou.nbvt~ a.n.d df-~u,ciau.~, !Jnc. Chictl.fjo, fl[f,nol.. 5 (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 (WHEREUPON, the witness was duly sworn. ) HERBERT J. WALBERG, 4 called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. KAPLAN: Q. State your name and your address, please. A. My name is Herbert J. Walberg. I am at the University of Illinois in Chicago, Box 4348, Chicago, Illinois. Q. What is your full-time position? A. I am a research professor of education. Q. Do you have any outside occupations, that is, consulting on a regular basis or anything else? A. I have consulted over the years, yes, I have :- Q. Well, I am really asking if you are a member of any consulting firm or group. A. No. I am not a member presently of any firm or group. Q. Do you hold any regular employment outside of your academic position? A. Well, I have an ongoing relationship with <woffl!., c:Rou.nb-vc.9 and c:lf-1.waia.tl!.1., [}na. (!f,_1.,,"90, [!ff,nol~ O (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 5 publishers who seek my advice on an occasional basis. Nothing else comes to mind. Q. Have you testified in any school cases? A. Yes, I have. Q. Tell me the names of the school cases in which you have testified. If you can't remember the names by the case style, then the city will be sufficient. A, The most recent case was the St. Louis case. I believe that was called Liddell, L-i-d-d-e-1-1. I testified in the Benton Harbor case. I testified in East Baton Rouge, Louisiana
and a number of years ago, I testified in some hearings that were conducted in Iowa and in New Jersey. Q. When you say "a number of years ago," what are you talking about? A, Q. A. ago. Q. A. Q. I believe it might have been about 1973. When did you testify in St. Louis? I think it might have been about 18 months And for whom did you testify? I testified for the State of Missouri. What was the nature of your testimony? <'Wolfe., c:Ro!J.e.nbe.'Tfj and c:lf!J.waiate.!J., [/na. Chic~o, .Offinol 0 (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 6 A. I was asked to examine plans that had been put forward by various parties to the case
and I was to evaluate the plans, particularly from an educational standpoint, to see how it would affect teaching and learning within the districts, St. Louis and the county districts. Q. How about Benton Harbor? How long ago did you testify there? A. Q. A. Q. there? A. I think it was about three years ago. And for what party? The Coloma Public School District. What was the nature of your testimony There had been a school annexation of a small amount of land at one point, and the Coloma schools and the Benton Harbor schools and one or two other districts were at odds about ho~ that might have affected education within the Benton Harbor schools. I was asked to assess the degree to which that might have affected learning, and I was also asked how best to improve black learning within the Benton Harbor public schools. Q. With regard to East Baton Rouge, can you <Woff t:, cf?o!>.t:nfn,'-9 and c:f/-Hoc.iatt:5., [}nc.. C!hie.~o, !Jff,nol~ 0 (312) 782-8087 tack 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 7 tell me approximately how long ago your testimony was there? A. I think that would have been about two years ago. Q. And for what party? A. It was for the East Baton Rouge Public School District. Q. What was the nature of your testimony there? A. I was asked to assess the effect of teacher experience, years of experience on student learning, and what factors might best promote learning within the schools. Q. When were you first contacted to be a witness in this proceeding? A. Q. A. Q. It perhaps was about five or six weeks ago. Who contacted you? Mr. Steven Jones. What was the nature of the assignment given to you? A. I was asked to look at the characteristics of education in the three districts, to examine the quality of education, to assess the degree of liability and also to see what might be done about <Wo{fe, c:Ro~mfre.~ and. clfuoa.iate.~, [}na.. {!f,_~CUJO, [Jt[,nol~ ~ (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 8 remedies with respect to improving learning. That is basically the charge I was given. MR. ADCOCK: Excuse me just a minute. (WHEREUPON, there was a short interruption.) BY THE WITNESS: A. I neglected to mention -- I forgot to mention I was also given the Dentler plan and asked to examine it. BY MR. KAPLAN: Q. Can you tell me what you mean by "assess liability"? A. Well, I was asked to read the Judge's memorandum opinion and to look at various things that he had said with respect to North Little Rock and to see how important that might be for the educational process. Q. What materials were you supplied with to assist you in undertaking this assignment? A. I am not sure I can name them all, but I have been given nearly the entire transcript. I was given the Judge's memorandum opinion. I was given a number of North Little Rock exhibits. When I visited the Little Rock area, I was <wo[f e, c:Rou.nGe"5 and clf-~waiate.~, [}na. {!f,~a:Jo, !J[(inol (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 supplied with various curriculum materials. During visits to the schools, I was given examinations and things that were used within classrooms to promote learning. I obtained maps of some of the school districts. There had been a report, I believe, by a government mediator which I looked at. There is probably some more materials, too, that I have looked at that I can't bring to mind now. Q. When you talk about the transcript, were you given the transcript of the liability phase, the first two weeks in January? A. If I could ask, it starts about Page 1, doesn't it, and goes to about Page 7000? Q. I frankly can't remember the ending page, but it's two weeks' worth of trial in January. A. Yes. I believe I was given the entire thing. Q. Were you given that portion of the remedy phase in April? A. Q. A. Yes, I think I was. And have you read that entire transcript? I can't say that I have read every single page and word, but I have attempted to read the <Wolf I!., c:::Ro1
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,, [f na. (!f.,c~o, ifff,noh. e (312) 782-8087 tack 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 parts that concern education closely and, perhaps less attentively, some of the other parts. Q. Have you requested any additional materials? A. Yes, I did. Q. What were those? 10 A. I requested curriculum materials from the North Little Rock School District central office staff and also the Pulaski County District staff. Q. Anything else? MR. ADCOCK: Can we confer again for a minute? MR. KAPLAN: Go ahead. (WHEREUPON, there was a short interruption.) BY THE WITNESS: A. Yes
I am sorry. I was speaking of the materials I actually got. I did wish to get materials from Little Rock as well and to visit schools and interview central office staff in Little Rock, but I did not have the opportunity. BY MR. KAPLAN: Q. All right. Do you understand that part of your assignment in connection with your engagement by the North Little Rock School District will be to <Wolf I!., cRou.nbl!.~ and c/1-1.wa.ia.u.1., {/na,. {!l',
.,,O'jo, ffffinol~ (312) 782-8087 tack 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 11 assist in developing a plan of desegregation? A. My understanding will be that I will provide suggestions on techniques or procedures that would be incorporated into the total plan. Q. Have you done any or made any such suggestions yet? A. I have discussed these suggestions with the central office staff in Pulaski County and in North Little Rock and the lawyers in the case. Q. Do you understand you will have any kind of formal role in connection with drafting any sections of a desegregation plan? A. Yes. Q. What will that be? A. I will write a report of my findings, which will, as I understand it, be incorporated into a North Little Rock plan and analysis. Q. When do you intend to do that? A. I am working on that now, and I hope to have a good draft or fairly final draft within the next several days. Q. And does "next several days" mean sometime next week? A. I am not entirely clear how much time we <vVoff e, cf?o~enbe'rfj and df-~waiate~, [}na. C!.hlc":fo, .[Jffinol., 8 (312) 782-8087 tack 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 12 will be given for this. As I understand it, we are in something of a rush to get this. So I would like to take as much time as possible, but I would be ready perhaps with a draft or fairly final material by, say, Saturday or early next week. Q. Are you speaking about Saturday, you mean, the day after tomorrow? A. Yes. MR. KAPLAN: We would request that, too. BY MR. KAPLAN: Q. Do .you intend in this draft to assess liability in the context in which you first spoke of it? A. Yes. Q. Do you intend to discuss remedies with regard to improving learn~ng? A. Yes. Q. Do you intend to give your critique of the Dentler plan? A. Yes. Q. Do you intend to do anything else in this draft or in the final version? A. Well, I think that those are the basic <wolfI! ., c.Ro~l!.nb-e'tfj and d/-uoaiatl!.~, [fn a. Cfik~o, _[Jffinol~ (312) 782-8087 tack 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 13 intentions that I have. Q. Are you the primary author of the North Little Rock plan, or will there be some co-authors? A. Q. A, Q. A. I would not be the primary author. Who is? I think it will be a group effort. Who are the other members of the group? Well, I believe that the other expert witnesses will be drafting materials Q. I didn't mean to interrupt you. I am sorry. A, I believe that the other expert witnesses will be drafting materials that may be criticized: and I believe that the attorneys will be examining it and it will be reviewed in various phases. not entirely certain how it will proceed. I am Q. Do you know what portions Dr. Armpr will draft? A, I am not sure of that, no. Q. Have you had a meeting of the authors of the plan to discuss any outline or general theoretical construct of the plan? A, Do you mean all of the authors or -- Q. Either all or any substantial number <'Wof f-, cf?o!..enbe 'UJ and. df-!..~ciate!.. , [} n.c. C!hic~o, flff,nols (312) 782-8087 tack 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 thereof. A. Well, over the course of the various meetings I have had on various occasions, the possibility or even the probability of a report being completed has been discussed. 14 And various ideas have been put forth on the sections in such a report and how it might proceed have been discussed. Q. Have you had a meeting at which the general theoretical or philosophical framework was discussed? A. WeLl, I think I need to interpret the philosophical framework. I suppose that this has been mentioned at various times, yes. Q. Well, for example, have the authors with whom you have met made a decision to opt for a purely voluntary plan as opposed to a mandatory component? A. I am not entirely sure that all of the authors would take a position with respect to a voluntary or a mandatory plan. Q. A. Q. What is your position? I would have to advocate a voluntary plan. Purely voluntary? <'Wo{f e, c:Ro~en.b-e'tfj and df.~waial:e.j,, lna. C!f.k"90, fJ[[inol~ (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 15 A. Yes. Q. Can you tell me all of the purely voluntary desegregation plans of which you are aware? A. plan. Well, certainly Chicago has a voluntary I imagine that there are different definitions of voluntary plans. Some plans may be voluntary but have a mandatory backup. Q. I would include, within mandatory, voluntary with a mandatory backup. What I am asking you now is to list for me, if you can, all of the purely voluntary plans with no mandatory backup. A. I don't think I can be certain in answering that question. I think there may be mandatory aspects of the St. Louis plan and there might be in Milwaukee, but I think that these have been cited as cases in which voluntary procedures have been used that have been effective. Also, the Benton Harbor case, as I heard about its later results, was a voluntary plan. Q. Purely voluntary? A. I can't be certain that there were either mandatory backups or not. Perhaps there may be some <Woffl!-, c:.Ro1,.l!-nb-l!-'r9 and. c:ft1..walafa1,., [}n.a. (lf,,~"90, fl{{inol~ (312) 782-8087 tack 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 16 appeal procedures or something of that nature. Q. Would your plan, if you had your druthers in it, if you get to exercise the dominant authorship, be for a purely voluntary plan? A. I would prefer voluntary plans. I think that they have great merit. The only time that I could advocate a mandatory plan is simply obeying the law, but I see very little other use for a mandatory plan. Q. Are you aware of any purely voluntary plans in any southern school system, that is, a formerly de Jure school system in the south? A. Yes. Q. Where? A. In fact, I am glad you reminded me, because it was a case I neglected to mention. It was in Norfolk, Virginia, where I testified: and Norfolk, Virginia, had a mandatory plan, I understand, for many years. They were concerned about the quality of education in Norfolk, and the school district wanted to back away from a mandatory plan and to use voluntary transfers. And that was approved by the Court. <vVoffl!., cf?o~l!.nb-l!."9 and cltucaiate.~, [}na. Ch.c"-:}o, f!tt,nols (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 17 Q. Any others? A. Not that I can think of offhand. Q. Have you, in connection with your meetings with the other authors of the plan, discussed any desire to go at the very least for the degree of racial balance for which you will aim? A. I am sorry. I don't understand your question. Q. All right. Have you formulated any position with regard to what the plan will aim for concerning the racial balance in the various schools in Pulaski County? A. When you say "you," do you mean me? Q. I mean you and your co-authors. A. I have not come to that conclusion, and I am unsure as to whether the other authors have come to such a conclusion on racial balance. Q. What is your understanding of the racial composition of the North Little Rock School District? A. I have looked at one point at the school percentages of blacks in the schools, and I remember that there was a range of percentages. Offhandedly, I don't know the overall balance within the North Little Rock School District. <Woff e, cRo~enfre'tfj and c:lfuoaiate~, [}na. C!hkago, flffin.ol~ (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 18 Q. How about in the Little Rock School District? A. My recollection is that it was approximately 50 or 60 percent black. Q. How about in Pulaski County Special School District? A, We are talking about the entire district? Q. No. I am talking about -- yes, the entire Pulaski County Special School District, but not the entire county three school districts. A, And we are talking about the entire district as opposed to specific schools? Q. That's right. A, My recollection is that it's approximately 22 percent black students in the Pulaski County District. Q. And 1how about the percentage of black students, white students, if you put together the three school districts in the county? A, I think that the point was made in the transcript, and my memory is that it might have been about 30 to 40 percent. Q. Do you have any view with regard to what any desegregation plan should require in terms of <Wo[f e, cf?o1,,enbe":J and c/f-1,,wcial:e,1,,, [/nc. {!f.k~o, if{[inol._ (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 19 the percentages in the county? I am not talking about the Pulaski County Special School District. I am talking about countywide now. A. I don't have a strong position or opinion about the racial balance, what it should be within the entire Pulaski County. Q. Do you expect that by the time a plan is devised, that the authors of the plan will settle on some kind of figure as to what it ought to be? A. Well, I would speculate that they may arrive at such a figure. The other expert witnesses are sociologists and others that are more concerned about racial balance, and I think that their opinions will weigh most heavily. Q. You have been concerned about it in the past, have you not? A. Racial balance? Q. About the concept of racial balance. A. Well, I have been concerned about it
and I have been brought into cases where it has been at issue, yes. Q. Have you discussed among your fellow authors anything with regard to faculty composition <Wolf I!-, cf?o5.wb-vc-9 and. clfuoaiatl!-5., [Jna. Chic~o, flff,nolf1 (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 20 and staff composition? A. I don't recall any conversations with the other expert witnesses on staff composition. Q. When you have used integration as a concept in your writing before, what is your definition of integration? integration? What do you mean by A. I think that integration is a somewhat imprecise term. I think it means that, to some extent, people are treated as individuals rather than as racial categories. That is one favorable aspect of the term. I think another favorable aspect of the term is that, especially in the context of schools, the attention is given to teaching and learning as opposed to simply desegregation or racial mixing. These are the two aspects of the term that I think I would tend to emphasize in thinking about it. Q. Have you ever been involved in the drafting of a desegregation plan before? A. I have been asked, I think, in all of the cases for educational advice about what would promote the quality of learning and so on
and I had <'Wo{f , cf?o1..nb-e'rf} and clt1..waia.u.1., [Jna. {!f,_~~o, flffinoiJ. (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 21 written notes and given ideas in discussion on how to improve education in these plans. Q. Have you ever been involved in the drafting of a plan for desegregation? Are you confused by the question at all? Do you understand what I am asking, that is, how to desegregate schools that have been found by an order of a court to be segregated? A. Well, you have used the term involved in the drafting. I think that I have written notes of perhaps memoranda, and I have participated in discussions with people who were formulating plans
and my ideas have been incorporated into those plans. Q. Have you ever participated in any way in those portions of the plans that dealt with what racial balance would be required in a particular school or group of schools? A. Well, I have in the sense that I have advocated voluntary desegregation, voluntary transportation and suggested that idea
and that idea has been incorporated into the court deliberations, into my testimony and into other peoples' testimony and various documents in these desegregation cases. <Wolfe, c::Ro~enb-l!."9 and d/-Hoaia.l:e.11., fna. (!/
_kago, iJffinol~ e (312) 782-8087 tack 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 22 Q. In Norfolk and in Benton Harbor. Anyplace else? A. St. Louis. Q. Are you responsible for any part of the St. Louis plan? A. Well, since I testified, certainly, in that sense my ideas were incorporated, I believe. I think also, in contrast to some of the other expert witnesses, I had suggested a voluntary plan that would not involve an amalgamation or consolidation of the districts. So .in that sense, I think that my ideas may have been considered. I can't say that I was the one who decided, but certainly I suggested that in testimony. Q. How much are you being paid by North Little Rock School District? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. I am being paid $500 a day. Have you submitted a bill yet? Yes. How much is the bill that you submitted? I submitted two bills. How much are they for? One was approximately $3,000. <Woff, cf?o!,./!,nb-e.~ and clf.1.waiau.1-, [f na. (!J
_~"-90, iffflnob (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q. A. And the second? Was about $7500. 23 Q. A. And to what billing date does that take us? I think that the second bill was the 24th of this month. Q. A. Q. Is that for time and expenses? Yes. I mean, the total of the approximate $10,500 includes time and expenses? A. Yes. Q. What desegregation plan specifically, other than the ones you have mentioned, have you actually studied? A. Q. A. Desegregation plans? Yes. Well, I think that there were approximately four or five different plans that were submitted in St. Louis, and I studied them all. Q. What I am really asking you now -- and it was inartfully drawn -- is to tell me whether you have in the course of your preparation for this proceeding or any other looked at the operative plans in any particular school districts and then compared those plans to some result, that is, what <Wolfe, cf?o1,.enbe'tfj and clhwaiatu, Jna. C!hi.u>-go, ffftlnol~ 0 (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 24 has happened during the course of the implementation of that particular plan. Have you studied any school districts around the country? A. Well, to take a specific example, I did study the plan that was going on in Norfolk, Virginia, that I had mentioned earlier
and I was asked to assess it and to find out if it was effective. That is one example of a district where I studied a plan that had been ongoing. Q. Have you studied any others, other than those you have told us about, and reviewed them and studied them with a view to seeing whether the plan was successful in accomplishing the order and mandate of the Court in achieving desegregated education? A. I studied prior plans in several respects, one of which was racial balance
but the tasks that I have been asked to concentrate on in my previous work was to look at the educational aspects of the plans. Q. Would it be fair to say that you have not studied any plans anywhere, including those <'Woff c., c::f?o1.c.nbe'f} and. dhwaia.u.1., [/na. Cfzc~o, Jffinos (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 districts that you told us about, with a view to ascertaining whether the plan as implemented was carrying out the mandate of the Court? A. I felt that these were legal questions. 25 As I understand your question, it had to do with the legal implications of the plan. Generally, I have more been asked to concentrate on the educational aspects. Q. Would it be fair, then, to say that you have not looked at any desegregation plans anywhere to determine whether the goals have been reached with regard to desegregation, either by way of staff desegregation, student population desegregation, school desegregation, any of those items? A. No. It would not be fair to say that. Q. Well then, tell me where you have done those things. A. As I said, in Norfolk, I had been asked to look at the procedures that was being used there under, I believe, a court order and prior plans that had been called for and to assess their value, primarily with respect to bringing about effective education but also to looking at racial balance and social class balance. <'Woffl!., c.Ro5.mb-vr9 and. cl/-5.waiatl!.5., {/na. Chic:}o, iJtt,noh (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q. A. Q. Any other? I was giving you that as an example. Tell me all of the others. 26 A. I think you said earlier about the Court, whether the Court was doing it or not
and I have to say I was not a lawyer, but as far as the educational and racial balance issues, I think that those were important considerations in nearly all the cases I have testified to. Q. I am not drawing the distinctions you have just mentioned. What I am asking you now is, have you studied any plans, any school desegregation plans in existence, and evaluated those plans to see whether, in your view as a educator, those plans were meeting the requirements of court orders with regard to staff desegregation, pupil population desegregation, and any other componepts of the desegregation plans as might have been required by the court? MR. ADCOCK: Is this question limited to those instances wherein he has studied these plans for those reasons in conjunction with an appearance in court or with his independent research and his work that is done through the university? <Woffl!., cf?o!..ULb-l!.'r-9 and. clfHcaiatl!.1,. 1 [}na. {!f:.1.a~o, ff{[inol~ e (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 27 MR. KAPLAN: The latter
independent research and work done in any connection. I don't care. BY THE WITNESS: A. You enumerated a number of instances. Should I take them one by one? BY MR. KAPLAN: Q. Any way you want. A. You mentioned staff desegregation. I have studied patterns of -- let me take that back. I am sorry. I am going to have to have you ask the question again. Q. Sur.ely. Have you in connection with any of your work, either specific school district testimony or engagements or in connection with your general researches, investigated and made any analyses of school desegregation plans as those plans relate to court orders regarding pupil population desegregation, faculty and staff desegregation or any other components of a desegregation plan, for example, treatment of pupils in regard to specific educational programs, learning disability programs or any other? A. In all the cases that I have testified on, I think that the factors that you mentioned had an <'Wolfe., cf?o~e.nbe.'ff} and. c:lf-:1.wai.ate.:1., [fna. Ch~a:JO, ifffinol~ (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 28 important bearing, and I was asked my opinion about those factors. In addition, I have carried out other work that did not involve court cases in which those factors were variables that were studied in my research. Q. And tell me what school districts they involved, even if they did not involve litigation. A. Well, there would be many studies that I have conducted, because I had analyzed a large-scale social survey data throughout the United States. Q. Are any of them school districts specific? A. By your question, do you mean were they averages of school districts analyzed? Q. No. What I mean is, did you take a particular desegregation plan, whether it was court ordered or not -- for example, the City of Seattle does not have a court ordered plan
it has a voluntarily drafted plan with mandatory aspects, but nevertheless it was pot court ordered. I am asking you if you have investigated any desegregation plans, whether court ordered or otherwise, as they relate to these several factors that I mentioned. <Woffl!., c:Ro5.l!.n&e'tf) and. c:lf5.wcziat.5., [}na. (!l',,,~o, .!J[finols (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 29 A. I may be missing a nuance of your question, but I thought I answered it earlier when I said that I have participated in these court cases that I mentioned earlier. Q. Are there any other specific school districts other than the court cases you can tell me about? A. Well, certainly. I have carried out studies in Fort Wayne, Indiana, that had a desegregation plan. I have studied Chicago Public Schools data with respect -- because it was in court and I had studied various racial factors in relation to achievement, and I have also studied the racial balance within the Chicago Public Schools. Q. Any other school districts now? A. Well, as I said earlier, I have done many large-scale studies in various districts, some of which have had court orders or were under desegregation plans or various mixtures of blacks and whites, and I have conducted studies in those school districts. Q. Have you formed any tentative or final conclusions which you will present in your testimony <'Wo[f I!., cRo!..l!.nbl!.'f-9 and clf.uoaiau.1., !Jna. Chi<!O-Jo, !Jffinol~ 9 (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 30 concerning your assessment of liability? A. I was asked to assume that the Judge's memorandum opinion was accurate. I am not sure that I can contradict the judge. I have been focusing most on the Dentler plan and remedies -- I am not sure I am being completely responsive to your question. Q. Do you have a view that there is inadequate foundation for any of the Judge's findings with regard to liability? MR. ADCOCK: Excuse me. I am not going to instruct him not to answer the question
but I want it noted on the record that, again, all of these expert witnesses were told specifically to assume that the Judge's findings of liability were, in fact, correct. MR. KAPLAN: Okay. MR. ADCOCK: And with that caveat, he is perfectly free to answer the question. BY MR. KAPLAN: Q. Go ahead. Do you recall the question? A. Maybe you better mention it again. Q. Is it your view or do you have a view as to whether there was inadequate factual basis for <"Wolfe, cf?ou.nb-vr.9 a.nd clf-~waiate~, ffna. Cfzk~o, f!{(,nol!J. (312) 782-8087 tack 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1 7 i 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Jl any of the Judge's liability findings in this case? A. I have not come to a final conclusion on that point. Q. Do you have some tentative conclusions on that point? A. Since I was asked to assume the liability, I have not come to an opinion on that. It's something that I would say is conclusive at this point. Q. Well, I am not really asking you for any final conclusions. Do you have now any areas where you tentatively feel that the Judge may have grounded his liability findings in an inadequate factual basis, based upon your own history of research as well as your having read the record in this case, those portions that you did read, and the Judge's memorandum opinion? A. Well, since I was asked to assume the liability, I haven't thought through that question. Q. Do you intend to have any discussion as part of your testimony with regard to liability, and if so, what will that be? MR. ADCOCK: None of his testimony or the <Wolfe, c.Roj_enbe'tf} and. c:lfj_wai.a.f:e.j_, [}na. C!hic"-90, !Jffinol<. (312) 782-8087 tack 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 testimony of any of the other expert witnesses is designed to nor will it specifically impugn the Judge's findings of liability. We want that very clear in the record. BY MR. KAPLAN: Q. Do you intend to discuss in any way the 32 impact of liability, the extent of liability, or any other way that your lawyer chooses to phrase it? A. I may reach conclusions on the extent of the liability, because I was asked to assume liability
but I may measure that or attempt to measure it. Q. What I am asking you is, in what areas have you done that or do you intend to do it? Since I may not get another crack at you before you go on the stand, Dr. Walberg, I want to shoot all my weapons right now. A. I will assess the degree to which racial mixing or desegregation may impact upon an achievement, and I will assess the degree to which consolidation may impact upon the community and achievement. And I may be asked questions about the degree of specific liability within the Judge's <Woff e., cf?o!,./!,nb-e.'UJ and df-1,,waiau.1,,, [}na,. (!f.ic"'.30, .[![[,nol~ (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 33 memorandum. Q. Well, that is the area I am most interested in now. What will you have looked at in order to make that assessment, and what are your tentative conclusions? A. I have, as I said earlier, looked at the North Little Rock exhibits
and I have read the testimony given by central office staff in North Little Rock. And as I also said earlier, I have interviewed bhe staff
and while I have not come to firm conclusions, I want to review everything before I do. I may look at, as I said earlier, the racial balance, the consolidation, but possibly also the disciplinary procedures and i suspensions, the classification within gifted programs, and classification of mentally retarded students. Q. Haven't you looked at all those yet? A, I have read all the transcript, but I have not perhaps been given as much time as I would like
and there are other things I would like to have so I may come to a more definitive conclusion in the next <'Wo{f e., c:Ro~wbe.'tfj and. c:lf~waiate.~, [Jna. {!f,_
,,:Jo, ilffinol~ e (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 34 several days. Q. Well, can you tell me, if you had to write today what you say you are going to have written perhaps by Saturday, what would you write with regard to those matters? A. In my opinion, I can answer one of those quite specifically. In my opinion, racial balance has very little to do with learning. It is not a primary determinant of how much is learned in school, and that I can definitely say. I have reached that conclusion from other studies and syntheses that I have conducted. Q. That is not what I am asking. What I am asking is, with regard to the extent of liability, you told me you were going to testify in regard to three areas -- the degree to which balance will impact upon learning
the degree to which consolidation will impact upon the community and achievement
and the extent of the liability as it was found by Judge Woods. A. Yes. Q. Okay. Now, it's the latter or the last of those three items that I am now concerned about. I don't know exactly what you mean by the <Wolf I!., c/?01..l!.nbvr-9 a.nd c:lfuoa.iate.~, [}na.. {!f'.c~o, fJClincb (312) 782-8087 tack 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 35 last, but I am certain it means something different than the first two just because you said it differently. A. Yes. Well, I think that I mentioned the first two quite clearly but what I am -- the third is highly related to it because, as I understand the case, it has to do with desegregation. Q. How is it different from the first two? Tell me how it's different and then what you have done. A. It had to do more with the liability. So I will examine the first two questions in relation to the third
what is the degree of liability and how is it related to the questions of how racial mixing affects achievement and the degree to which I will attempt to assess, one might say, the costs and the benefits of consolidation. Q. Are you going to say anything about magnet schools? A. If I am asked, I would certainly say something about it, yes. Q. asked? A, Do you know whether you are going to be I am not sure. <"Wo ff e, cR o5.enfwr9 and. df-5.waia.te1.. , .0 na. {!f:ea.go, if[linol~ 0 (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 36 Q. Have you been asked to do any research and investigation with regard to magnet schools or to prepare yourself with regard to an inquiry regarding magnet schools? A. I was not specifically asked to look at magnet schools
but during the course of my preparation, I did look into the question of magnet schools. Q. Let me ask you a little bit, before I get to your assessment of these various liability issues, about your assessment of the Dentler plan. Can you give me your overall assessment? A. I think that the Dentler plan is extreme in its insistence on consolidation and mandatory desegregation. Q. All right. Can you now be more particular, after you have given me this generalized critique? A. I have reservations about the lack of community and staff participation in the plan. I don't think that the plan would promote learning as much as other alternatives. Q. A. Q. What other alternatives? Nonconsolidation and voluntary transfers. If I told you right now that I am the <woffl!., cf?o1.l!.nfre'tfj and c/hwa.iatz.1., [/na,. {!/
.~90, flffinol~ (312) 782-8087 tack 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 judge and that you got a balance racially within plus or minus 33 percent of the district-wide average, all of the schools in the county and I don't tell you how to do it, whether to do it by consolidation, pupil sharing, pairing, -- and I 37 haven't given you any constraint other than that as the general overall constraint -- how are you going to do that, if you had your druthers? I am the judge
you are my expert. Do it. A. I would honestly have to tell you that this may be extremely difficult to do and that it would perhaps be prohibitive in its costs. Q. Dr. Walberg, I am the judge now and I am talking to you as my expert. "Walberg, I didn't hire you to tell me what I couldn't do. Tell me how I am going to do it." I am the judge now, Federal Court judge. I hired you to tell me how to do it. You have got an order. Are you going to resign? A. Frankly, yes, I think that I would probably have to do that. Q. All right. That is okay. That is an <wo[fr., c.Ro~nb-r.UJ and df-11.wciate.11., flnc. C!hka-go, !J{linol~ (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 alternative. What else is it about the Dentler plan that you don't like? A. I think that the Dentler plan lacks attention to the uniqueness of the districts. I 38 think that it has too much emphasis on statistical quotas and mixing. I think that the transportation has not been fully assessed and that it might be harmful in several respects, for example, money, children's time, disruption of current programs in the districts. Q. Do you know what school district in the United States has probably the single most expensive transportation system in per pupil? A. No, I don't. Q. How much does the Milwaukee plan cost, do you know? A. Well, I had heard some years ago: but I think I may have been mistaken. And then I did read the testimony by the expert in Milwaukee. My memory was that it was an extra several hundred dollars, but I am not sure of those figures. Q. Do you recall his saying his was about the <woffI! ., cf?o~nb-1!.'rfj a.n.J. d/-1.MJaiau.1., [fn a. {!J
,,:~o, f1Ct,nols (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 39 most expensive in the country? A, I don't recall that, no. Q. Okay. Tell me what else there is you don't like about it. A, I think I have mentioned the major factors, at least that come to my mind. Q. Okay. Do you recall an article that you wrote called "School Practices in Climates That Promote Integration," which appeared in Contemporary Educational Psychology in 1983? A. Yes, I do. Q. Do -you still stand by everything that is in there? A, I don't remember all the different points that were in there. Q. With regard to racial mixing you wrote, "Although increased interracial/ethnic contact does not guarantee the development of positive interracial/ethnic attitudes, knowledge and behaviors, such contact does appear to be needed if these positive outcomes are to develop. Within school resegregation, grouping and tracking has been found to widen racial prejudice and inequities." <wo[fl!., cf?o~mbvc9 a.nd df-~wa.iafa~, lna,. C!hlca.:JO, .flff,nol~ (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 40 Do you stand by that? A. I think I would have to read the entire article again and look at it in context, but what I could say about it now is that I certainly agree that some schools that may be nominally desegregated may become resegregated within classrooms so that the blacks may be in one group and the whites may be in another. I have believed that that has happened, and I will certainly stand by that. Q. Is that bad or good as an educational matter? A. WeLl, one would have to look at that in each context. If there are substantial differences between the black and white achievement, teachers may have some tendency to use tracking and grouping within classes. I think that it may have ~ome beneficial effects, and it may have some harmful effects. Q. Is the process of desegregation to be looked at, in your view, within your universe of things, as primarily a matter of how children do on standardized tests? A. I would say that that is a very, very important consideration, because the purpose of the <wolf~, c:Rou.nbe'Cfj and. cf/-1,.waiau.1,., [fna. cr..~a:10, .O[l,nol~ e (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 41 schools is learning. I, as an educational psychologist, want to find the ways that are most effective and efficient in promoting learning. Q. You would then measure the success of a plan of desegregation on the basis of how improved black children -- how well they score and how much improvement they have on standardized tests? A. I would emphasize that as a major factor but not the only factor. Q. What other factors? A. Well, there are other things to be taken into consideration. Q. Tell me. A. These might include the extent to which they get along with one another
the extent that integration, as I defined it earlier, takes place
the extent to which there is not white flight or segregation by social class, either within schools or within communities. I think that the morale of the educational staff is important, the relation of the school to the community, and related factors need to be weighed. <wo[fl!-, cf?o1.l!-nb-vc9 a.n.J. clf1.waiafr.1., [fna. Chic":Jo, IJ{(inols (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 42 Q. Do you still believe, to quote from Page 88, "Our index of student integration consists of three parts
One, knowledge, the extent to which students are correctly informed about significant aspects of people of other racial and ethnic groups
Two, attitudes, the extent to which students have positive feelings towards interracial association
Three, behaviors, the extent to which students report positive interracial association." A. Yes. I think those are important aspects of integration. Q. Do you believe that having staff models is important? A. For what? Q. For a successful plan of integration. A. Yes. I think that is likely to have an important bearing. Q. Is it important or acceptable to you to use standardized IQ tests and achievement tests for assignments to educable mentally retarded classes? A. I think that these have been standard practices throughout the United States over a period of decades and that there are various opinions about the value of that. <wolf~, cRou.nfrvcg a.nd cl/-1,,u,aia.tu, [fna. {!_f,t,,tl
Jo, !Jff,nol~ (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 43 There is some evidence that grouping, that is to say, homogeneous grouping, children with like abilities, can facilitate teaching. So I would say, from the point of view of current practices, it's certainly not something that is unusual. Q. That is not exactly what I want you to respond to. A. I am sorry. Q. Is it appropriate and acceptable within your universe to use those standardized tests for assignment to E.M.R. classes? A. Yes. I think that intelligence tests and achievement tests are useful in placing the students in E.M.R. and other categories within schools, but I also think that other factors need to be taken into consideration. Q. Do you believe that any of those tests are culturally biased? A. I have to give a long answer, I am sorry to say. I think that these tests have been evolved specifically or designed specifically to predict how well the children will do in school. The very origins of intelligence testing <vVoffl!., cf?o!..en.bvr-9 a.nJ. c:lf-uoaiatl!.1- 1 [}n.a. (!f.ie~o, !fl(noh (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 44 with Binet and others came from that desire to place children in the most effective situation possible. So this is the conventional use that has been made of them. Now, they are culturally biased in the sense that middle-class children will do better on the tests. So you could say that they are culturally biased towards promoting greater learning and the assimilation of children into middle-class culture. Q. Are they culturally biased against certain racial and ethnic groups? A. I think that particular cultural and ethnic groups have had various degrees of environmental exposure to middle-class culture. So that it is a well-known fact that racial and ethnic groups and cultural groups do differ on the intelligence and achievement tests. Q. Do you believe that they are biased against blacks? A. I would have to say, perhaps in my own terms, that it is a well-known fact that blacks score lower on conventional intelligence and achievement tests on average
but there is <wof(e., c::Ro~nCe'f} and c:1/-j_waio.u.j_, [}na. {!f:c.~o, !J(t,nol~ (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 45 substantial overlap between blacks and whites. So in that sense, there are differences. But going back to the main point of your question, the cultural bias, I would say that it indicates the child's, that is, a black or a white child's, potential for doing well in school. Q. A. Q. You are an educational psychologist? Yes. You are familiar with the literature concerning test validation by race? A. Yes. Q. Are you not familiar with the fact that Binet has never been racially validated? A. I don't understand your point. Q. Well, I don't need to make a point. Do you understand the question? A. No, I don't. Q. Okay. In your view, is Stanford-Binet a racially biased test? A. I would have to go back to my earlier point to say that it is biased in the sense that it predicts which children will do better in school, if that is the meaning of cultural bias. Q. No
racially biased, biased against blacks. <Woffe, c::Ro~uibe-ig and df-~wc.iatv,., [/nc.. CJ:.1.e~o, fJa,nol~ e (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 46 A. I think that there have been some studies, particularly of older versions of some intelligence tests, perhaps even the Stanford-Binet, that have indicated that there may be some biases in some items. But I am of the view that it is sufficiently well-known that most modern tests have removed biases against blacks. Q. And the current version of the IQ test does that? A. Of the Stanford-Binet? Q. A. I can't say that specifically, since I haven't made a specific study of the Stanford-Binet test, nor do I give that test personally myself. From a reading of current literature, I would say that the Stanford-Binet, Wechsler and other modern individual intelligence tests are not biased against blacks. Q. Wechsler is not either? A. I haven't conducted a specific study of the Wechsler test
but I am not aware that it is especially, particularly with modern versions, biased against blacks. <Wolf, cf?ou.nfrl!.'tfj and cfl-1,.wa.iatl!.1., [}na,. Cf.ic":Jo, .oainol~ e (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q. And do you agree with the remarks made under "Staff Models" of your article to which I have had prior reference, "School staff provide adult role models for students. It is important that there be appropriate staff models available for students. Healthy and visible interracial/ethnic relationships among staff provide models for integration. Thus, schools with staff racial and ethnic diversity matching that of students and staff who are perceived as being racially, ethnically integrated appear more likely to promote integration among their students." A, I think in the context of the article that what I was writing about, that these characteristics of the staff enhance students attitudes towards racial integration. that statement. So I stand by Q. What do you mean or did you mean when you said, "Thus, schools with staff racial and ethnic diversity matching that of students"? What does that mean, "matching"? A, Well, in the particular context of that study, which was several New England studies, they were both black and white students in those schools
<'Wolfe, cf?o~wbe'Cfj a.n.J. df~waiate.1.., fJna. C!hlc~o, fl[(inols (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 48 and there were also black and white staff members. And in addition, in various neighborhoods, there were other ethnic groups, such as Portuguese and Hispanics and others. So I was making a statement that it might be useful to have some mixing or presence of those staff members to enhance the students' attitudes towards integration. Q. You would never accept any minimum acceptable percentage rate, would you, in the faculty or staff of the minority or ethnically diverse group? A. Well, I would be reluctant to do that, because sometimes there are the labor market problems of getting these exact matches. Q. Well, I want you to assume with me a perfect world in which people are available. A. I don't think exact or nearly exact proportions are critical, no. MR. KAPLAN: Okay. Can we take just a short break. (WHEREUPON, a recess was had.) MR. KAPLAN: Could you read back the last question and answer, please. <woffl!., cf?ou.n.Cl!.'tfj and. c/f~waiau.~, [fna. (!f,~~o, [Jffnol~ (312) 782-8087 tack 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 BY MR. KAPLAN: (WHEREUPON, the record was read by the reporter as requested.) 49 Q. Do you have an opinion, Dr. Walberg, with regard to the following fact situation
if the student body composition of a particular school district is 40 percent, what the faculty and/or administrative staff ought to be in terms of its percentage, 40 percent minority? A. For what purpose? Q. For the purpose of composition. A. I don't have any strong opinions on the most desirable racial fractions within districts. I think that if there was clear discrimination against people, it would certainly be wrong
but as far as the learning is concerned and so on, I don't think it is the decisive factor. Q. With regard to the drafting of a plan for the desegregation of a previously segregated school district, do you have an opinion with regard to whether any certain percentage of minority ought to be required in the staff and the faculty? A. I certainly, as I said earlier, think that the school districts must conform to the Judge's <"Wolfe, c::Rou.nbe"ff a.n.d c::1/-1!.waiau~, [Jna. {!f:.k'90, .Offinol~ (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 order
but as far as the learning is concerned, I think that the racial percentages is not an important consideration. 50 Q. Do you have an opinion as to what a judge ought to include in an order concerning faculty and staff percentages of minorities? A. This is not something that I have strong views about, nor do I consider myself an expert on. I think that a major consideration is the avoidance of discrimination in hiring and in promotion, certainly
but as far as effects of schools are concerned, I don't have any strong opinion that that, aside from the discrimination, would have major effects. Q. Do you believe that in any plan of desegregation there ought to be a security component? A. Well, I think that if a security component is necessary or seems necessary, then it certainly should be included. Q. Do you believe that it is based on everything you have read in connection with the Little Rock matter? A. I have not reached a conclusion about that. I would speculate that if the community objected <Wo{f e, cf?ou.nbe-r.g and clf-1,.~aiau.1,., .Ona. C!hL.!"90, if{(inols (312) 782-8087 tack 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 51 strenuously to it, that security might be necessary there. Q. Do you still agree with the following in your article on school practices: "One key qualitative aspect of such contact is the presence or absence of fear often generated by the threat of interracial/ethnic conflict. Schools where students believe themselves to be secure from the threat of imminent conflict are more likely to be affected in supporting the development of integration." A. Yes. I believe that fear and violence and related factors can have harmful effects on learning. Q. Do you believe that racial fairness is an essential component of any fair plan of desegregation? A. Yes. I think it's important that the plans have racial fairness. Q. Do you still hold your views, as stated in your article, "When students feel they are fairly and equally treated by staff, whatever their racial or ethnic identity, they appear to be more likely to develop interracial/ethnic understanding and acceptance." And skipping briefly, it says, "Students <wo[fe:., cf?o~e:.n.b-t:."9 and. c:lhwciatu, [}n.c. Cf..k~o, iJ([
nol~ (312) 782-8087 l 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 52 whose own cultural-based behaviors are not well received by staff from another culture may feel that they have been unfairly treated as a result of their racial or ethnic culture. Thus, schools that attempt to provide fair treatment to all students with a respect for variant cultural norms should be more likely to promote student racial integration." A. Yes. Q. Is there anything in that paragraph that I don't know about that talks about learning as opposed to promoting student integration? A. I wrote that article some years ago, even though it was published recently. I would very much like to have a copy of it to read it over again. Q. I will make sure you get one if you don't have one. Don't you have one? A. I honestly don't. Q. Do you still agree with the following among "School Integration Practices," "Racial mixing and racial fairness are the most strongly related to student integration, attitude and behaviors. A. May I have that repeated, please. Q. I will just give it to you to read. It appears right under Table 4. <Wolfe., cf?o~e.nbe.'Lf} and clf-~wciatu, [}nc. C!h.Lc.~o, .Offinol~ (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 BY THE WITNESS: A. Yes. BY MR. KAPLAN: (WHEREUPON, there was a short interruption.) I agree with that. Q. You told me that you thought that the transportation in Dr. Dentler's plan was harmful. Does it bother you that the St. Louis plan places virtually all of the bussing burden on blacks? A. I think that it would have to be 53 considered in context
and I think that, taken alone, that has an element of unfairness about it. On the other hand, I think that in the St. Louis area, many of the suburban districts were felt to have better schools and that there was some feeling in the metropolitan area that the St. Louis schools were not as effectiv~. So taking children or giving them the opportunity to go to better schools worked to their advantage. Q. Do you believe from what you have read of the transcript in this case that the bussing burden ought to be shared equally among black and white students in Pulaski County? <Wolfe, cf?ou.nbvr-9 aru1 cl/-1.waiate1-, [/na. C!f'ilc":Jo, !Jff,nols (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 54 MR. ADCOCK: Are you assuming in that question a consolidated school district? MR. KAPLAN: Assuming any transportation, student sharing, magnet schools or whatever. MR. ADCOCK: MR. KAPLAN: MR. ADCOCK: BY THE WITNESS: Whatever the remedy? Whatever the remedy. Go ahead and answer the question. A. I think that it's difficult to answer this in a universal way. I think that if -- since I have said earlier that I believe that voluntary transfers are desirable, that it may be that more whites or it may be that more blacks would desire to go to different schools. And I would certainly think that that would be more valuable than meeting an arbitrary mixture or statistical quota. BY MR. KAPLAN: Q. Assuming some mandatory components, do you believe that the bussing burden, if a burden there be, ought to be shared equally among blacks and whites in Pulaski County? A. I think that, as an abstract concept, if there had to be mandatory desegregation, that there <vVoff e., c:Ro1.ntre-r.g and clf-1.1,0aiafa1., [}na. Cf.1.c"f)o, lJ{linoi~ (312) 782-8087 l 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 55 should be proportional representation in the transportation, all other factors considered equal. Q. I take it that means yes? A. Well, I would resist making a blanket statement that it always should be the case. Q. Does that come as close to yes as you can get in this context? A. Yes. Q. You have already told me how you feel about the degree to which racial balance will impact upon learning. I think you told me it wouldn't affect it, is that right? A. In a brief answer, that's correct. Q. Will it affect it negatively? A. Desegregation? Q. Yes: racial balance. A. Well, it's a complicated question, I guess, because I have said earlier that it is well-known that there are differences in ethnic groups and their achievement levels. So there would certainly be a compositional effect. If we look at the broad pattern of education, there are such things as white flight and <wolfI! -, cf?o!..wbvr9 and. df-"aiate.1-, {Jna. {!fz.1e."90, if((inob (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 56 so on and middle-class flight of blacks and whites out of systems that have mandatory desegregation. So that can have injurious effects to learning. Q. Well, in your view, consolidation will racial-balance impact negatively upon the level of black learning? A. Q. A. Yes, it definitely could. And upon what do you base that conclusion? I base it on the conclusion that there would be a diversion of financial and human resources away from education, away from learning, into transportation, that it may interfere with present staff relationships. It may interfere with the relation of parents to teachers in the schools that the children are presently going to. There are other related factors that are likely to bear upon black and white learning. Q. Is there any study of any kind that you know of in the context of a desegregation plan that required a large-scale reassignment of students because of a desegregation plan that demonstrated that the changing faculty relationships, the changing nature of the PTA configuration and the <Wolfe, cRou.nb-e'tf} and clfuoaia.te1.., [}na. {!/',t,,"90, [J[(,ncl~ e (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 parents' relationships to the schools negatively impacted upon black learning? A. Well, you mentioned a great number of factors
and there are studies that indicate that specific factors, taken one at a time, have an important bearing on learning. 57 Q. Has there been any study in the context of the implementation of a large-scale desegregation plan that moved a large number of students around and that changed faculty relationships, studentfaculty relationships, that changed PTA configurations or parent-school configurations, that demonstrated that there was, thus, a negative impact on black learning? A. I can't say that any study has studied all those factors in one single study, but there have been studies bearing on several of the causal connections that you mentioned in your question. Q. Isn't it true that the large majority of studies have indicated that in desegregated situations after a desegregation plan has been implemented that the level of black learning generally stays the same or goes up? A. In my opinion, desegregation has <"Wolfe, cf?o~l!.nbl!.~ and. dhwai.a.tl!.1., []na. t!h.k~o, [J[[,nol~ (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 58 inconclusive results, and ma y have both positive and negative results. Q. Is there anybody of learning that demonstrates that the achievement level of whites in a desegregated education system has declined? A. Yes. Nancy St. John, in a book some years ago, reviewed the desegregation literature and came to the conclusion that desegregation, in some instances, perhaps in the majority, has produced negative consequences for Q. How about Christine Roselle? What does her research show? A. I think that Christine Roselle has been more preoccupied about the question of white flight, and I don't know her opinion about the effects on learning. Q. Have you read anyone else other than Nancy St. John with regard to that matter? To the question of desegregation on learning? Q. Yes. A. Yes. I have read a sum of studies, reviews and syntheses. Q. Is it your view that there is a <vVoffe, cf?ou.nbe~ a.n.J df-~waiau.~, [}na. {!f,LcO:Jo, fJCt,nols (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 59 significant body of literature which shows that the achievement level of whites generally declines in a desegregated atmosphere? A, The only study that I can cite is the Nancy St. John study, which reached that conclusion. Q. Are there other studies which show it does not negatively impact upon the level of white learning? A, My knowledge of that currently is only from the St. John book. And in the book, my memory of her conclusion is that, on average, it had some negative consequences
but I believe that there may have been some other studies that she reviewed that did not show that. Q. Is there any other area about which you will testify that we have not discussed this evening? A, I don't recall any other areas, but I may be asked to look at other things between now and the trial date. Q. Do you intend to prepare any tables, graphs, charts or other demonstrative evidence with which to elucidate or expand on your testimony? A, Yes. Q. Have you begun the preparation of those <Wolfe, c/?011.wb-e~ and. c:lf-1,.1,.oauifa~, [fna. Cf..k~o, f1({1nol~ (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 60 documents? A. Yes. Q. Have you completed any of those documents? A. No, I haven't. Q. When do you expect to complete them or have any ready for inspection? A. Perhaps early next week. MR. KAPLAN: We would request those also as soon as they are available. BY MR. KAPLAN: Q. Are you familiar with Dr. Dentler's work and testimony in the St. Louis study? A. Yes, I am. Q. Did you make any comments in your testimony to the Court with regard to his feasibility study? A. I am not sure that the feasibility excuse me, are we talking about St. Louis? Q. Yes. A. I am not sure that I remember the title, whether it was the plan or a feasibility study. Q. Cid you comment on either to the Court? A. He had a plan which may have been called a feasibility study, and I did comment to the Court. <'Wolfe, d?ou.nbe'-9 and c:ft1,.waia.u.1,., iJna. (!f..~a.go, 1{(,nols (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 tack 61 Q. What were your comments in a general way? A. Very similar to what I have already told you about the Little Rock plan. Q. All right. Do you have any other support in the literature for your support of totally voluntary plans? A. Your question is somewhat general. From my reading of various studies and social surveys and experiences in working in desegregated settings, I have come to the conclusions that I have mentioned to you. Q. Can you name for me any other authors upon which you rely? A. I would rely to some extent on Gallup and other social surveys. Q. Gallup? A. Yes
and other social surveys of the United States that have been published in the magazine "Capin" over a series of years on the opinions of blacks and whites on the desirability of mandatory desegregation plans. To some extent also, I would base my conclusion on the syntheses carried out by the National Institute of Education which has sampled <wo[fI! ., cRoj,l!.nbl!.'rfj and df-j,waiatu, [}na. Ch.lea.go, ff{{
nol~ (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 62 six scholars to look at the question of desegregation on achievement. I also would base that conclusion on studies that I have personally conducted, for example, in Fort Wayne Indiana, of parents whose children would be undergoing mandatory transportation. So there are a variety of sources that I would base that conclusion on. MR. KAPLAN: I think that is all I have. CROSS EXAMINATION BY MS. SNEED:- Q. I would like to go back a little bit to what we talked about earlier about the broad brushstrokes of the plan you may be contributing to and just ask a few questions about that. My understanding from what you said earlier is that that plan is not written, but there has been some discussion about it and you have some ideas? A, Yes. Q. To the extent that something has been actually agreed upon among the experts, is there an agreement that this will be a voluntary plan, a <Wolf, cRo5.wbeUJ and d/-5.waia.tl!.5., [fna . {!/
.(e~o, Illtinol~ (312) 782-8087 tack 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 63 purely voluntary plan? A. I would like to say a couple of things. I didn't want to use the word "may." I think I will definitely contribute to the plan. I was uncertain about the exact procedures and what my part will be. I was thinking about that as you asked the final part of your question. Q. Will the plan have a component that is purely a voluntary component as opposed to a voluntary component with a mandatory backup or mandatory to voluntary? A. I cannot be sure of the conclusion with respect to that, nor what the recommendation will be. Q. So you are now speaking for the group? A. I am unsure what the final decision will be made by the group with respect to whether it's voluntary or mixed with mandatory backups. Q. And from your personal opinion, are you unsure or are you sure? A. In my personal opinion, I advocate voluntary transfers. Q. So that is going to be your recommendation to the group? A. Well, I am not sure, in view of the very <woff e., cf?ou.nbe.~ and. clhwaiau.1., iJna. Cf.Le.a.go, flff,nols (312) 782-8087 tack 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 short time period, that we will be able to participate in meetings where we will actually completely be able to formulate this at a group. 64 Q. Do you know who is going to write the part dealing with student assignment then? If that is going to be the case, different people are going to write different components, I assume? A. Yes. Being a psychologist rather than a sociologist, I have a feeling that I will not write that part of the plan
and I am not really sure of who would write that part of the plan. Q. Let me try another way. You obviously have a bias towards that. Why do you recommend a voluntary plan for student assignments? A. I believe that many parents believe that mandatory desegregation and lengthy transportation is not in the best interests of their children
but I also believe that some parents do believe that desegregation is a very, very high priority for their particular children. The virtues of a voluntary plan, in my opinion, is that it provides for both those types of parents. If you have a mandatory plan, you force <'Wolfe., d?ou.nbe'rf/ and. df-1.waia.te.1., [fna. (!f.Le.~o, [J(f,ncl._ (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 everyone. I think you have to have the elements of fairness there. You are really forcing everyone, including those who do not wish to participate, to participate
and I think that that has injurious consequences. Q. What do you think would make a voluntary plan successful? If you had just a purely voluntary plan, what makes it successful? What are the characteristics of a successful plan? What makes people want to make these choices so you desegregate your school system? A. Well, I think the schools need to have the satisfaction of the community members, and particularly the parents
and I would weigh that very, very heavily. I also think it's important to maintain staf,f morale. And to the extent that at least those two things are accomplished, those are useful purposes. Q. Would you have magnet schools be a part of the student assignment plan? A. I don't have strong opinions about magnet schools. I have some somewhat mixed views. I think that magnet schools can be effective in attracting <wo[fl!., cf?o1..wbl!."9 and. clf1..waiatu, fJna. {!f,_
,,,130, flffinol~ (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 66 students of a different race to a particular school. I think that they sometimes risk the danger of what is called creaming
that is, that they will take middle-class students or they may take larger numbers of white students into those schools. They may also be more expensive. But to the extent to which they have a voluntary character to them, I think that they are attractive. There are also educational values that may be viewed as trade-offs, and perhaps these are best decided by the community rather than by me. But certainly a school, a magnet school, for example, that would feature music would obviously give a specialized training in music and superiority in music
but it may mean that the child may sacrifice other aspects of the curriculum. I think that to the extent the parents would have the opportunity to choose that, that would be constructive. So I think that magnet schools have some attractive features about them, but they also have some dangers. Q. Are you going to be making any sort of <woff e., cf?o!.Ln&e~ and. clf-1,.waia.tE.1,., [f na. {!f..c~o, f![lin.ol (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 67 recommendation or talking to the other experts and saying that you think that magnet schools might have a positive effect or a negative effect? Are you going to be giving any input on that? A. Probably, as I compose my report, I may mention these things, particularly if I would be asked to do that. Q. Okay. If you don't use the racial balance idea or racial quotas, as you have talked about it in both terms since we have been here this afternoon, what would you use to integrate the schools? you have any benchmarks? Would A. Well, I think that my main concern about the schools is that they function effectively in the two main purposes of the schools, which are teaching and learning. I think it should be the plan that puts that as the first order of priority and yet have the other characteristics that I mentioned, which would enable children that want to go to other schools or would provide minimal disruption, while I should emphasize, because I haven't spoken about it for awhile, that naturally we have to conform to the <Woff e., c:Ro~wb-e,"9 and clf.~wai.a.te.~, [f na. Chcago, .[/[(no~ (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 68 Court orders. Q. Okay. You mentioned that you have looked at the curriculum with North Little Rock and with, I believe, Pulaski County Special School District? A, That's correct. Q. Did you form any conclusions about first of all, tell me exactly what kind of information you got from Pulaski County Special School District. A. I interviewed staff members. Q. Who did you interview there? A. I will have to go back and look at their names. I have them written down. I need to review my notes again. They were principally the major figures in the central office staff. Q. What kind of things were you looking for in those interviews? A. I was looking at the quality of the educational program and particularly the unique and distinctive features of the Pulaski County schools. Q. Did you find some unique and distinctive features there? A. Yes. <vVoffI! -, cf?ou.nbl!-'tfj and. cf/1.wcia.l:e.1., [}nc. t!f.Lt!~o, f1{[1nol~ (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 69 Q. Would you care to tell us about it? A. I would need to go back to this again, because it's been awhile since I have been working on it
but one of the unique and distinctive features -- and it's slipped my mind what the title is, but there is a person who is in charge of instructional leadership in each of the schools who has been responsible for helping to implement the curriculum, which has accommodated and who assists the principal and assists the teachers in carrying out the curriculum. Q. And you would think that that would be an important function to preserve, I would assume? A. Yes, I do. Q. Are there any other features you thought were unique that you can recall? have the list before you. I know you don't A. I do remember that there were some characteristics of the gifted program that seemed different to me, unique and distinctive. I don't recall what they were offhand. would have to review my notes again. Q. When you say that you are going to be writing about the educational aspects in your <woffe.., cf?o~n.lJ.e'r.fj and. cf!1.waiate1., .On.a. {!f.1.c~o, .0[(.nol~ e (312) 782-8087 I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 70 findings, can you define that for me? A. Yes. I am concerned with the factors that promote learning in schools, and some of these are characteristics of students, such as their age, their ability, their motivation. But in addition to that, the schools can alter such things as what I call the quantitative instruction, the length of the school year, the length of the school day. They can allocate time to various subjects within the curriculum. In addition to the quantities of instruction, there is the quality of instruction and there are various aspects of this, such as cues and reinforcements and open education and many other techniques that have been found to be effective in maximally promoting black and white learning. In addition to this, there are psychological factors that might be called a psychological environment or climate of the class, the morale of the classroom group, the extent to which they are cohesive or a cohesive group that students find satisfying. Going outside of the school, there is the home environment which is extremely important in <Wo[f e, c::Ro~en/J.e'UJ a.n.J. clf-~!I.Ocia.u.~, [}na. (!/',1.,,"-90, !{(in.ol e (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 71 fostering the children's learning. I don't mean by that the race or the social class, but one might say the curriculum of the home, the extent to which their parents are informed about the school, help the children with homework, provide a quiet place to study, things of this nature. Another factor among these nine is the extent to which children are exposed to mass media, television in particular, which we find that excessive amounts are associated with lower levels of achievemen-t. And the last factor is the extent to which the peer group outside of the school is academic and stimulating to the children's development. Q. So you will be assessing the extent to which each one of the districts has those characteristics? A. Well, I think that these may come more into the remedy as to how to improve learning within the districts. I am not sure that I could assess this precisely, given the limited amount of time that I spent in North Little Rock and in Pulaski County. <'Wolfe, c:Ro1,.enbe~ and d/-1..waiatl!.1.., [}na. C!hc:Jo, iJff,nol~ (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 72 Q. Will you be evaluating them on a continuum? How will we get a feel for what your conclusion is? A. I will relate these more in comparative terms to racial balance within the schools or racial quotas as to their relative effectiveness in promoting learning and particularly with respect to a remedy. And I will also attempt to relate these to the characteristics of the districts, that is, what are the things in the schools that affect those nine things. Q. Help me with how those characteristics will shape a remedy. Can you give me a specific example? A. If you agree with my value judgment that learning is the important thing to do in the schools, then, in my opinion as a psychologist, we need to enhance these factors. I think that that is very well established by syntheses and many studies
and, in my opinion, those factors themselves may be affected by aspects o f the p 1 a rl For example, if there were more money put into transportation, this would interfere with these <Woffl!., cR01.Lnbvr9 and c
/.f1..wcia.te.1.., [Jnc. Chk~o, flffinol~ (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 73 factors. If there was a disruption in the system caused by consolidation, this may be injurious to the relationships of the central office staffs, to the principals and teachers in the schools. So it's that causal chain that I will be concerned about. Q. And you feel that a plan with a voluntary aspect would control some of that disruption and would control the disruption of relationships and the students' achievement and that kind of thing? A. Perhaps I could answer your question this way. I would say that a mandatory plan or consolidation is likely to interfere with the factors that promote learning
whereas, a voluntary plan and the absence of consolidation would allow those factors to be maintained and possibly also to be increased. Q. Okay. Do you think that it's healthy to have three districts in this close a proximity so that they can have some sort of competition in terms of the different kind of programs they can provide, and maybe that helps them improve the educational excellence that they might provide? A. I think there are various things I could <"Wof{e:., c:Rou.nbeig and c:lf-1,,wa.i.ate1,,, []na.. CJ:.i.a~o, lfffinols (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 74 say about that. One is that if a voluntary plan were to be proposed and the districts did have unique features, that that could promote interdistrict transfers if the districts were maintained in their present form. attractive feature. So that would be an I think you also mentioned the word "competition." I think that if that were handled constructively, that could also be beneficial to the children's learning in the district. Q. Is the plan going to have a component that deals with faculty? Mr. Kaplan touched a little bit on the issue, but I wasn't ever clear whether the plan is going to deal with that aspect. A. I am not certain that it will deal with faculty. Q. At least you won't be having any input into it that you know of? A. Well, perhaps I should say that I may touch on the question of the present faculties and the possible injury to the faculty of consolidation. So I may touch on that as something to be avoided. Q. Okay. Is the plan going to have an aspect dealing with extracurricular activities? <Wolfe, c:f?ou.nb-e'tfj and. clhwa.ia.te1,., []na.. Chlt!":Jo, f!ftinol~ (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 75 A. I don't recall any specific plans for that, although it's possible that the transportation aspect would touch on the difficulties of maintaining after-school extracurricular activities and then bringing the children home after school if they would be leaving at various times. But that may be more in the reservations about the Dentler plan than the remedies. I may be using the term "plan" a little bit loosely. I am not sure if it will be called a plan or a report or whatever, but some of these things are likely to be touched upon. Q. Achievement seems to be one of your big interests. Is there going to be a specific section that is going to deal with achievement as part of this plan, or whatever we are going to call it, this report? A. Yes. I will definitely write about achievement. Q. And it will develop what you have already talked about with Mr. Kaplan? A. Well, particularly since what I talked about with you, since you asked me about these nine factors. <woffe, c,Ro1..wbe'ffj and clf-uoai.ate1.., fJna. {!f,_t,,.~o, !J{l,noli (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 76 Q. Is your plan going to deal with the white flight issue?_ A. I think it probably will, yes, although I will not deal with it in a principal way. Q. But it's your opinion that the voluntary plan would have a positive effect or would arrest the amount of white flight that you might have from the districts? A. Yes. I think that a voluntary plan would produce less of a white flight or minimize white flight. Q. then. I have, I think, just one more question What do you mean by "effective education"? Maybe you have already defined this for me. We have thrown that term around here pretty loosely. You have mentioned it. Mr. Kaplan has mentioned it, and you have mentioned it. What are we talking about by "effective education"? A. Well, my principal concern is teaching and learning
but I think it has to be also viewed in the context of other factors. When I say "teaching and learning," I am usually referring to achievement on standardized <'Woff r., cRou.nl:r.'tfJ and. d/-1..waio.u.1., .{/na. {!f'ik":}o, ff[(inol~ (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 77 tests, on the academic tests, English, mathematics and science. I am also interested in what might be called continuing perseveration after school and lifelong learning and so on. I think effective education also has to consider the students and parents as clients of a system that they have to be content with and pleased with. I think that the staff concerns need to be dealt with so it's cohesive and satisfying, and I see these factors as going together. Q. Are we also dealing with what has become popularly known as the "effective schools model"? A. Not chiefly. Q. Would you say that some of those factors are important factors
positive school climate, strong leadership, high teacher expectation, emphasizing basic schools, continuing assessment and feedback and monitoring of student learning? A. I think that many of those factors are plausible, and I think they are effective
but they have not been established as clearly as the other factors I have been talking about. <Woffe:., cRo~e:.nbvr.9 an.J. c:lf.1..~aiate:.11., [fna. {!f,u,"'.}o, [!{{,nol~ (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 I think that they are factors that probably promote the more specific psychological factors that I am talking about, which is more 78 amount of time on tasks, the quality of construction within the class. I have a mild reservation about the "effective schools model" because it assumes that an entire school is effective, when we know from more specific studies that we can have an effective teacher in a school and an ineffective teacher: but I think that these things do go together and they probably are -enhanced. Q. Let's just take your definition, then, for effective schools. Do you have an opinion as to whether or not North Little Rock is an effective school district under your definition or has a number of effective schools? A. I do not think that I can come to a definitive conclusion on the effectiveness of the North Little Rock schools from the studies that I have conduc~ed there. I think that the achievement scores and my experiences in talking to people and my examination <'Wo{f e, cRou.nbe'tfj and cff.1.waw..tE.1., [}na. (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 79 of their curriculum indicate that they are certainly above average, and they might be highly effective
but I don't think I can come to a definitive conclusion. Q. What about with regard to the Pulaski County Special School District? A. I have basically the same conclusion about the Pulaski County School District
but I should say that I have spent less time there, and I did not visit schools, and I am less certain about that. Q. I know you didn't get information from Little Rock, -but do you have an opinion, any sort of opinion, about whether you would consider them an effective school system? A. I haven't reached a conclusion about the Little Rock schools in that regard
and I may be studying it further in the next several days, because I haven't been concentrating on that in the last few days. I don't have the impression that it is either a highly effective school system or a highly ineffective school system. It's probably middling, and may be comparable to the other two, and I should say, with respect to what you asked about, which is <"Wolfe, c::Ro~e.nbe'tf} and. df-~waiatu, [f na. {!fii,,"-50, fJffinols (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 ,, 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 80 overall effectiveness. Q. Do you feel that it's important for each one of these school districts to keep their autonomy? A. I think that is extremely desirable. Q. In addition to some of the other reasons you have given, I think that probably the other question that might factor in here is, do you have any reasons for why you think that autonomy is important? A. Yes. I think that the districts have evolved self-chosen programs, and these are complicated programs
and the staff has what I call a psychological ownership. They have worked very hard to attain these programs
and if they were to be obliterated, I think it would be injurious to staff. Q. You think it would be injurious to the citizens also? A. Yes. MS. SNEED: I have no further questions. MR. KAPLAN: I may have just a few more. MR. ADCOCK: I have no questions. REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. KAPLAN: <vVoffl!., cf?ou.nbvc9 and. c:lf-1.UJai.o.u.1., {Ina. (!/',_k~o, fl[{inols (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 81 Q. Who owns the schools? A. I am not sure I can give you an entirely valid answer to that. Our Constitution leaves education of the states, although they are fundamental governors in some sense of the school system, they do leave considerable autonomy to the local school districts. I think that the school board members are principal governors of the schools, but I do think that they have to be responsive to the needs of their communities as they see them. So it's difficult to say exactly who owns them. Q. Who is responsible for all student assignments? A. It's also difficult for me to answer that question. Q. Should the school administration be responsible within the framework of the policies set down by the board? A. I would say yes
but I would want to add to that that I think they have to take into consideration other matters, such as state guidelines, what parents think about things, when I talked earlier about voluntary plans. <Woffl!., cf?o1..uibvc9 and df-5.~aiatl!.5., [}na. C!hlcil50, IJtt1n.ols e (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 82 Q. How much input should parents have in determining how the schools get operated? A. I would be reluctant to put a number on it. I think that they should certainly have a very strong voice in determining the educational programs. Q. Is there any reason why the best programs from all three districts could not be combined and implemented in a consolidated school district? A. Yes. Q. There is? A. Yes. Q. What is that? A, I was saying earlier that these programs require textbooks and other educational materials. They require tests that have to be geared to those materials, so that there is an inventory in the districts of textbooks that differ across the districts. And as I was saying, staff members had been specifically trained to carry out these programs. So that I think that while it is perhaps theoretically possible to do that, and I would have to say yes in answer to your question I would say that there would be a great cost to doing <vVoffl!., cf?ou.nb-e~ and. cft1
.wcia.b!.1
., [}nc,. (!f,,,."-90, [!{t,nol~ (312) 782-8087 tack 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 it. Q. Is there any reason why all of your factors with regard to the promotion of better learning are incompatible with racial balance? A. I think that the factors that I mention 83 can be implemented with varying degrees of racial quotas from all-white to all-black or mixed and -- Q. There is nothing incompatible with any of those techniques that you have mentioned and racial balance, is there? A. Only in the sense of a change of racial balance, it may interfere. But if you are asking whether these factors can be implemented in settings with different degrees of racial quotas, my answer is, yes, it would not make a lot of difference. Q. Are you generally opposed to consolidation of school districts on a countywide basis? A, Well, I think that I would be especially opposed to a mandatory consolidation. If it were forced upon the school districts, I think it would be injurious to them. ~ have also observed in the testimony and in other settings that, in the last few decades, there has been resistance -- we do have a lot of <Wolfe., c::Rou.nb-e.'rf} and c:lf1,..waia.t.1,.., [f na. (!f.fo~o, .[J((,nols (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 84 small school districts in the United States
and states have given incentives for school districts to merge, and they have resisted it. Q. As an educational matter, let's get beyond all of the mandatory and voluntary. perfect world now. Give me a People do the right thing, that is, the thing that their leaders and educators tell them is the right thing. You are going to get to be one of those educational leaders in my world. Is it a good thing? A. I could not make a blanket statement, because there are so many different factors that bear upon it. I am not particularly an expert in the cost effectiveness, but there are some that argue if you have a large district, you will have more specialized programs
but others argue, on the other hand, that small districts are more responsive to the immediate people that live in that district and they are not bufferd by a large bureaucratic organization. Q. Can you give me a yes or no as to your view overall on whether racial balance on a <Wolf~, cf?ou.nb-e.~ and. clf-1..waiai:E.1.., [}na. {!/'ii,,ll:Jo, !J[(inoi~ (312) 782-8087 II 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 countywide basis of school districts is an appropriate and a desirable educational objective? 85 A. If we are striving for a general answer, I would say that if the people in those districts wanted to do it, then it's likely to be an advantage, at least in that sense. Q. Dr. Walberg, as an educational matter and speaking as an educational psychologist wholly, and I am putting you in a world where you get to tell them what to do is it an appropriate and good educational objective, in your view, now, sir? A. I really don't have strong feelings about it one way or the other, if we are talking about this in the abstract. Q. Do you know how many school districts there are in Arkansas? A. Not offhand, no. Q. If I told you it was a state with 375 school districts and a total population of two million people, does that surprise you? A. No. Q. Would you also be of the view that the whole educational system ought to be voluntary? <Wolfe, cf?o5.e,nb-e,~ and df-5.waia./
e,5., [Jna. {!f,~O'jo, [/ffinols O (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 If parents decide not to opt for public education but to decide for home education, would that be all right, in your view, if that is what they wanted to do? 86 A. Well, I think that there are many complex factors that bear upon this
and certainly there are state guidelines and rules. Q. You are familiar with that whole Nebraska thing, aren't you? A. Q. Not really. About the religious groups that want to educate their children at home? A. Yes. Come to think of it, I think Donald Erickson has investigated this to some ex~ent. Q. What is your view about that? A. Well, I consider freedom an extremely precious thing
but 1I can see, on the other hand, too, that the parents may not completely have all the best answers for the children. So I don't have a strong view one way or the other about this. Q. You run the school district. You are the superintendent now. I am a parent with deep and abiding religious believes, and I believe that there <'Wolf, c::Rou.nbvr-9 and. cJl-1,.waia&.1,., [Jna. {!l',,i,,"50, /[{inol~ (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 8 7 is so much going on in the public schools that I do not want my children to be a party to that. I, as a certified schoolteacher, want to educate them in my home, and will provide the same textural material and provide the same hours and educate them in my home. Will you turn me in to the authorities because I do not send my children to public school? You are the superintendent now, and you have got to make that determination. A. Well, I would obey the law
and I would do my best to think of what the school board wanted and the communities wanted and the other parents wanted. As far as my own strictly personal views are concerned, I would not object to educating children in the home. MR. KAPLAN: That is all I have. MR. ADCOCK: You have inspired me. I have to ask one question, with your permission, of course. MR. KA PLAN: Go ahead. CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR.ADCOCK: Q. You indicated earlier, Dr. Walberg, that racial balance may or may not be incompatible with <wolf~, c:Roilnb~UJ and. dfj_waiate.j_, fJna. {!fi~":JO, .!J{[i,wls O (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 88 learning. Are there serious educational consequences that may accrue when racial balance is the one overriding objective that a school district pursues? A. Yes. MR. ADCOCK: No further questions. Signature is waived. FURTHER DEPONENT SAITH NOT. <'Wof{t:., cf(ou.nfJ.e'tf} and c:lt1l.waial:e1l., fna. {!f,,u,.~o, l[linol (312) 782-8087 I II I tack 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 l. :l 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 STATE OF ILLINOIS COUNTY OF COOK SS: I, THERESE A. KOZEL, a Notary Public within and for the County of Cook, State of 89 Illinois, and a Certified Shorthand Reporter of said state, do hereby certify: That previous to the commencement of the examination of the witness, the witness was duly sworn to testify the whole truth concerning the matters herein
That the foregoing deposition transcript was reported stenographically by me, was thereafter >. c d u c d L cyp c w>. l L.l g u ae y pe sonal d i rect i o n and constitutes a true record of the testimony given and the proceedings had
That the said deposition was taken before me at the time and place specified
That the reading and signing by the witness of the deposition transcript was agreed upon as stated herein
That I am not a relative or employee or attorney or counsel, nor a relative or employee of such attorney or counsel for any of the parties hereto, nor interested directly or indirectly in the <vVoff e, c::Rou.n.bvc9 and. c:lf-1,.~aia.te.1,., {In.a. {!f.ic"-90, flffinol (312) 782-8087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 90 outcome of this action. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I do hereunto set my hand and affix my seal of office at Chicago, Illinois, this~~ day of ___ ~---------' 1984. ___ ~ _ Cl . l<G3. S ________ _ Notary Public, Cook County, Illinois. My commission expires March 24, 1985. c.s.R. Certificate No. 84-1784. <woffe, cR01.-enbe't:J a.n.J. c:ll1.-waial:e1.-, [Jna. C!hi.c."50, JJ[[,nob (312) 782-8087
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<dcterms_creator>Bushman Court Reporting</dcterms_creator>