{"response":{"docs":[{"id":"dlg_bald_am-471","title":"--A rollicking, disintegrating nuclear device, out of control and plunging toward the earth? Well accidents will happen / Baldy, [1978 Jan. 28]","collection_id":"dlg_bald","collection_title":"Baldy Editorial Cartoons, 1946-1982, 1997: Clifford H. Baldowski Editorial Cartoons at the Richard B. Russell Library.","dcterms_contributor":null,"dcterms_spatial":["Soviet Union, 51.220643, 51.363519","United States, 39.76, -98.5"],"dcterms_creator":["Baldowski, Clifford H., 1917-1999"],"dc_date":["1978-01-28"],"dcterms_description":["The Clifford Baldowski cartoon depicts Leonid Brezhnev speaking to Jimmy Carter on a phone over a worried looking planet earth."],"dc_format":["image/jp2"],"dcterms_identifier":["chb886"],"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":["[Atlanta, Ga. : Atlanta Constitution, 1978 Jan. 28]"],"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["Clifford H. Baldowski Editorial Cartoon Collection, Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Libraries, Athens, Georgia"],"dcterms_subject":["Strategic Arms Limitation Talks II","Treaties","Nuclear arms control--Soviet Union","Nuclear arms control--United States"],"dcterms_title":["--A rollicking, disintegrating nuclear device, out of control and plunging toward the earth? Well accidents will happen / Baldy, [1978 Jan. 28]"],"dcterms_type":["StillImage"],"dcterms_provenance":["Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies"],"edm_is_shown_by":["https://dlg.usg.edu/record/dlg_bald_am-471#item"],"edm_is_shown_at":["https://dlg.usg.edu/record/dlg_bald_am-471"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":["The Baldowski cartoons created for The Atlanta Journal-Constitution are licensed to the Richard B. 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They discuss St. Augustine's tourism industry, white responses to the Cvil Rights Movement, personalities related to the movement and general facts about life in St. Augustine.","CRST.A 3A Subject: Mr. Hamilton Upchurch, Frank Upchurch Interviewer: DA v1]) Co/£'-tn.N 1/25/78 sj I : U: ~ \\ vJ '\"'~J'- l ){-~1'l,\\ I guess, basically, VJ ~was with you, and your family. How long you and your family have been in St. Augustine. We've got,H (A\"\"\"- ~-v \u003c:J.L AtA]\"'-~l-1r1-t.. 1..J 171 .. ,S itt'J 4 -tkt(t.__ ti\u003cll'I\\~ ~e~t.. I I .t1:: catr-Lt ..lH:rrt. to practice I ~w bc_Pon...c... I wAS J:::JOJ'?..I\\,) I: What did your, what sort of occupation, why did your father phone [;J~!lrl-u L/l1tci;f/M·c,~[guess I could ask him that, since ~l!. ~--~-----~~ ~ U: He, uh, had been practicing law in FernAndina and Jacksonville. He was asked to join a... (o.w ~in..V\" ~---~-------------~~---~- I: Now yourself, o/here were you educated, where did you go to school? U: All right, I was educated, with preparatory education for scho_ol in Bellbuckle, Tennessee. And then I went into the service, immediatley after that. Upon return from the service, I went to ,,.; ~ the University of Florida for uh, to obtain a B.S. degreeU/194,8', --(] {?f.I f f\\J/'l\"-Went a-l:-efi.g to law school at the University of SS? 1967. Graduated Law School in 19 ·. I: What, how would you describe the community of St. Augustine that you grew up, in it? U: I think the community was somewhat It was not typically small~~t was a little bit more sophisticated than the average small ,C~n tr al · Florida townlt\\ -'-/r J _4 \"_....___J _w_ ~_ _l_6 --_J-. _________ a great deal of tourists for the pu1... c.,,,r:''-\"'- r 11 , n r--.- :;-·1 ~ t-on.. 111\\.t'J S(rJ..'{ o~ '- ;-u·~·w, ._. deal of tourists at that time,+ \"' rw.k ould income was high~ southern tradition, but a little hit ---~-------- CR ST.A 3A sj page 2 more desirable place to live~ -Ji~_A_w~~~~-the average town. It has so many of the advantages of a large town, with its proximity to Jacksonville, and to Daytona, and to the resort to the ocean. I: You know, you said it had a lot of the southern traditions. I'm INeAC.. just curious as to, in your mind, what, what~ some examples of those southern traditions that existed. U: Well, because I grew up here, there were segregation, was clearly defined, and not contested. Although St. Augustine was, did not have a black town, a white town, as such, there were blocks, just one or two blocks of blacks, immediately in, adjacent to white areas, of the better class ~l,J__.~~lk~_ON--~w.\u003e~~-·They were sprinkled about town, and I think its because of its age. That was were servants lived, behind the better houses. And I can name three or four places in the community, and as people's ability to have servants stopped, they continued to live in harmony, almost as unsegregated 1 s ~ f'/, ql\"\"~ type of community. Which I think~~~~~~~~-' at that time, for that size community. -}J,.tlf F: I think it was too. I've never seen another community_;:...-.t-t- had such a pattern of residential desegregation I: But besides race, is there anything else that exibited southern tradition, so to speak, gave examples of southern traditions. Was, was the pace - · ~ C\u003e,__,....:=:, -\"\"\"'== ? You always hear about the I~~'- = pace of the ..wfri:1:.e being leisurely. r I .ri n~ rAc\u003c' \u003c\u003et\" I :12 ., .. H\\$. JL U: :ud\\.-e-wfta-:t-?- In other words, 1()1'2.Q..., - air con di tioning.1 \"'The people who were fairly well off all worked in the Many of the shops in St. Augustine closed in the summertime. The major hotels closed. They would close, and went to Michigan, and CR ST. A 3A sj page 3 other places in the East. They had summer shops there, that was their skill at work. 5lovis ~ ~. And consequently things pretty well slowed down. For example, our Sunday school let out in the summer, just like regular grade . r ' I {- \u0026 Ji-J -It\u003e 1-vu11.lS.{- -f:~f)j)QJ school let out in the summer. U?\"'\"'{lt\u003el'r01 • \\\"(. · F: Things really slowed up in the summer. In winter, we would be packed. It was a complete reverse. I: Was there any social hierarchy? Some, when you read about the old southern communities, there was sort of the, the vermin, uh, professional business community who formed the entire social hierarchy in the community, was there that? U: No, I don't think so. I: Yet, yet, interesting enough, your father came here, and he, he, obviously, there must have been some real opportunity because he became very active and influential in his, in his own career. U: He was successful as an attorney. I think the, there was much more social class then, than in other periods. Your professional types and some business types, and then those that were, uh, married or inherited money, and didn't work, formed a social 5-tnA ~c._ ~, and then there were ~~;;00 ,........,,.., 0 C\u003e..J\"=/' ... ,,(btV° And it was much more stilted when he used to work. For example, my mother never referred to her next door neighbor as anything other f\\,_ (',\\2 L \\5 1t-) than Mrs., and Mr. Today, you know this backyard part~, and you're running over there borrowing a cup of sugar, and whatever. But, when I grew up, although we were not picky people, but they refer to each other as Mr. and Mrs. He worked the rail; ~\" .c~.Jv;~ fl. w I'\\.. A; 1•., , \\\"' '1 c ri ..no-t: wlnle he :was ..a:way •. Nobody felt,,.· and we went to the same church. But, were great people. Their children o..\"'J- 1'-\"'t hri0 ·fl,,1'1_ A\"'° J.:. CR ST.A 3A sj °\"n_ t sfi II page 4 school friends today. But, it was that formality, and that is a southern tradition.. Along that same line, these are things I remember as a child. There were certain people that uh, many of the wives did not work, that were among my mothers friends. And the style was to have tea, to dress to the ±tc+l in the afternoon, and you could call on friends, make a formal call, where you wore hats, and gloves, and you were seated by a maid, and left your calling card if the lady of the house was not there. And, we did that, or you sat around in the afternoon, fully dressed, awaiting calls 'by others on you. Again, a custom. I: Uh, as you were brought up, were you aware of any racial problems at all in this community? U: No, nothing prior to World War. II. HA,Lft.l{:r I: How about after the war? Uh, say before this .fellow Ha-1-6)' came here, were there, were there any difficulties, not so much was there any violence, but, I guess that what I'm trying to ask, is was it apparent that things were building towards, say '63~h64? ~ NV-.' '.:\u003e Y'/\\ '\"' l) In~ U: Ye ah. · [ wo._l l e;..__? In retrospect. For example, we had a colored college here, called Florida A Baptist, a black Baptist school, that, uh, It 1r.HIV'+- ON __ • a few years on back. That school was having, before the war, and after the war, was totally segregated, totally from the black students. But they were, as I look back on it now, and then the references to them, the administration and faculty at that time /:,/o.-c,,k L._ was, they were pushing tteabl:\"e .•.. An that, they were endeavoring to get black-white, uh, contact through programs t{_Ju,_~., A,.,\"\\) \u003c;\"o -hii.:?.:ll. ,--- CR ST.A 3A sj page 5 I : They'd put on a musical program, or something, and always invite white business leaders, and you would go. ----------~\u0026e~Then, after the program wasn't totally /2~~ ~ fhov..t.l+I a lot of the segregated~mr~~~~~~~~~~~nobody b~ anything aJoDvd-~1t e-f value': But, other than, the reference, occasionally to a black as being a P'· ~s.\" +1 pr. aware of pa ob krcs 1 n..ert/(t 1 ·) I think I was not lu,1h { Ji...':\u003e./- b(!i}.otJ_L. _. _.. \\_-{_A_~- -====--__o_ c._tt~_n._~·_·t_. _ How about there was a fellow who's now over in Gainesville, a Called ['116'~~ c ~ Negro fellow, I ~ .. ,....,..::\u003e (;J111c~'~ r· ~ __. He was minister here. I have talked to him, he claimed a lot for himself, and I'm not quite honestly sure what to believe, in terms 0£.i sort of {Vt.G R..o mobilizing the .J..egal community. But, I was wondering if you were aware of his presence at all. You might not have been involved in any of that, but if you were . U: I knew a lot of the names .:of, but I was not aware of it. There was no overt actions to try to break down any of the segregated +n,rr\"rfrmv; pi'l1~c. Iv l9\u0026~.) \"16;\" . ..μ.osl:-t~, I can see. I was just I : very , and if there was any, it was one -------------~ or two individuals .that were particularly But, not in any particular portion In other words, Kl~\"' o-.M(\"-. IA':\u003e the p-hrn was not ~ The re was not , 1+- 0 ..,,._/\\_.,. 0 _._.6'--'-....._.. ,/\"_\\, .,.,---\"'=\"\"'------·~---_ .. pre-World War II, I was not aware of any plan of action, I'm sure they had an organization, but it wasn't called on to do the ~rLeA+·J. Well, that fits with the picture that I know. C1et's put this a -- ... -------·----\"1. little close~}:: \"\" 1c,•v)pL.o..,t] U: ~ut it right here if you want to. Put it on the desk if you'd like.:J I: You were active, as I recall, in the Chamber of Commerce, was that CR ST.A 3A sj page 6 correct? U: I : Were you, uh, president in '64, or '65? U: Probably, I don't have these facts. I: Yeah, I think it may have been '64. I was just, uh, as president, what specifically was your role in the 'commerce? What function? ? u: Did you have ... Well, President of Chamber of Commerce was just a one year term, and you had an executive director, presided at meetings, and most of your policy is pretty well set. The Chamber of Commerce, that~ really a misnomer. ) Its more tourist than merchant. The Chamber of Commerce, although it works toward the industry, and other things of that nature, but it~ more tourist oriented than anything else, it~ more supported by tourism, or tourist attractions, so, I can't, other than try to get additional members. I was not aware of any particular programs underway at that time. I: Were you actively soliciting new'busin~ss for St. Augustine~ trying to attract a small business or co~p~nA1toiJ U: Subcommittees of the Chamber were working in that area, especially tourists. I understand its all volunteer, with busy people. A real small staff, that pretty well operated the Information Center, and Executive Director, and the secretary, c,._p,JQ f\u003e1VS1Ncn. 1 /IJ0v--1r\u003c.1~.., ~J_ o..'H-i:.vr-p1* ~.,_, run~ down things. I: Did the, uh, was the Chamber aware of the racial problems in '63, was it involved in '63? '63 they, Hailing~ started the sit-ins, and then the white fellow, William Canard was, was killed in the fall. And Hailing, for some reason, got himself out of~his ~Ian meeeting) Was the Chamber aware that CR ST.A 3A sj this thing might somehow get out of hand, or did it just see that as a local problem? It might just \u003c;1\"\"mel-'2 , quiet down. U: I think at that time, they attributed the problems to a , an individual, on the local level. And, I thought~·~ ------ c./ c:\u003e '-\" \" along this line. I'm not conscious of having any thoughts But I think the general concensus was, there was I: Yeah. Well, I suppose maybe I oughta ask, did you know Hailing, other, did you ever meet with him? U: No. I: Uh-huh. But did you, but you got the sense, definately, that he was responsible for much of the problems of '63 and '64. U: That's right, I got the impression that he was a leader at the time. And he saw a great deal of, detected some unrest, but no way to mobilize it. And, there was a movement, I'm sure tiTat, ------ a counter-movement within the black community, we've always let on great here, let's don't make waves. And then there was a militant type that wanted to make waves, based on some I: You know, it seems to me, and I, I don't know if you can accurately reflect on this or not, but it seemed to me that Hailing had support from the College. Support among some young Negro kids, who were at the high school, and a few, what seemed like a very few older Negro citizens who lived here. Am I at all accurate in this~ /at least this, I've seen it through the records of U: It's probably accurate. I: Um-hmm. U; Of course, the black community in St. Augustine had been I - I CR ST. A 3A sj page 8 I think our ratio-was low, for Butler County ~~~~~~~~~~~ I think its something like twenty percent. That may not be an accurate figure. I had it So\"\" tv-1~ ;...., ~) V\"'' WP +t~+ tlnA-'~ ~be.\"\"\".+ P.16.lt\"I 4,..,,1::1 tlHn \"': r..: '.(.,-. ... -0 ihe state average is maybe ~or~ercent. ,...A((,L But, I got the impression,.~ have seen figure~ that the ratio of black to white had been 1e.f.f.1N6 9ne~hfL cJ+bu\\A~~ bf~c .. A1.\"\u003e h~,l btc..i j111N(,. down, in numbers. Some because there was no industry type, no machinization of the agriculture, and no industry types of jobs. r: Yeah, we' re smaller, but within a whole lot 3 VV\\~lkh.... its eighteen, St. Augustine, at that time, when state-wide it was l.i..1. 't{ ltt.. tv. ... ~~ tNq f't1:_ ,~ ........{ -- 21. 8, almost 22 percent. But I think you're right, I think it ~ d.e c/1~1,...r;. - was de-fined because of the nature of St. Augustine being a tourist ,-uJ. Ce.11.rh.fL, industrial relat.e-d jobs. One of the things that kind of baffled me, is that I see St. Augustine as a real progressive community. You could, just because it had a history of racial segregation, to me, does not mean its not a progressive community. It was caught up in its history, it had its pattern of residential segregation that seemed to pull to t-h€- . c._ rn..u~ /e.,..,..._ with race relations. It had, the community had begun to voluntarily desegregate its schools, and I wondered, how did it, how did this thing, how do you, why do you see it engulfing St. Augustine the way it did? It was almost chaos in '64. U: Well, I think you had a small, very militant counter C...oc.-v::..c:.... vJ\\,.,.\\\\-C. within the b.l.aek community, all rednecks, a popular term, that would meet every advance in the black community by~a. counter action. We, what I thought was the real thinking of leadership of this CR ST.A 3A sj page 9 I : U: community, almost became And caught in the middle, and had a lot of its so called friend$, or drinking buddies, who were redneck. I hate to use that term, but it saves a lot of words. Um-hmm. It had a lot of /u the black community, and just hated to see it. It took more overt steps to revert it. And just stood by almost with your head in the sand. This was the great majority of people that I think were Just really became Two really poor With that, Law enforcement I: How'd the Chamber, what was, did the Chamber try to initiate any any action to, Uh, ... ? U: No, the Chamber. I : You. U: And I guess I get blamed myself as much as -·' '7 {)Vo- /-rAJr;vJ. _. I went all week and became Mayor in '67. But, I wasn't thinking about it at the time. And I was serving on the Chamber as a The Chamber dropped efforts to improve. vJ *\"' ~ c._.o~ YI-\\ eY2C{. • 5 -\\--\"\\ 't (' \u0026. the.~~...s..t.at..e- completely out of COrJC.C•~N~o. Tlv( WCV2..e,. gr@ ates t , they hated to see it i;oL1.yt. f?nl)Gt'2,tf;'f15 • ____ ....:...._ ____ . ' coucer~s, strictly they knew it was going to hurt business. But as far as anything the Chamber thought, there was nothing I: Thats one of the tfuings that kind of baffles me, really, because, CR ST.A 3A sj page 10 eighty-five, the figure I've seen is eighty-five percent of the community was dependent in some way on the tourist industry. And, which took a real beating according to the statistics from the lCA~h\\lu Jt S\";iN 'l'f\\i'\\r.ttl'l M\"l110 .. \u003c\\L VYION()•rttclllT] fort. Um, in, you know, as the months progressed from the spring to the summer, it was obvious that it was getting worse, and I wondered why either of the commission, or -€avDr. Shelley, or the Chamber, or some other part of the leadership of the community wasn't saying, \"Listen, we simply can't afford it. Whether the community wanted it or not, we just can't, economically, afford to continue.\" U: Well, one thing we haven't talked about. This commimi ty has got {).... ... ..:t-ft.e., is very conservative. It was then the John Birch Society, you don't hear much about it any more, but it was an extreme right-wing. A really good, Christian people. And, anything you pll.() Y1c'~C'°') t.Vti.J (,.J blA\\l S\u003c'...SS IUN'S I S.U.WocS.e.d., ~ ~t • Socially anywhere, mean real '1..,, ,/\\ -/.'.'\\ ~ ,/~--- /-\\' ,::\\----,.(\"\\. \\.VU~ e-'-/~v '----'. ·· ··~ v ·· anyway conciliatory, you were ostracized by this, I good friends 5i'o+-_c- .:._I;_{-c_Yt--_£~0'--v--.-·--'\"·-·-------- you were ostracized by this extreme right-wing. And they said, this time is bigger than your pocketbook, and so those that wanted to make a concession, so to speak, for economic reasons, to save the tourist industry, were really set upon by the extreme right­handed friends. Or, this redneck government, with which they were left not R.dc:....~J. , but had the same goals. ---~---~ I: Um-hmm. Do you have any idea why the Birch Society was influenced by,\u003c:I know Dr. Norris, I believe at the time was the head of it. Uh, do you know why they were so influential? CR ST.A 3A sj U: Well, they were ... page 11 I: Were they, was it, sort of the Kennedy thing that got them, I don't know, seems, seems like the Birch Society begins to flourish with the Kennedy administration reaction to it, and then grows even more in the Johnson administration. rr,,C1-1,..1~y eit.\"\" U: I think it came from Ga!penter, that there was a Communist behind every bush. And in th.W movement, of social change, was Communist\u003ctii J\"''?p/12.e .. J. And, I think a lot of people just kept ~ ~ 1 c..-\\-- with fear of being lab led a liberal, -11~.:....;;;...-- I: Go ahead. U: And, very few people really spoke out on it, and I know one or two that did, and they lost ~ome friends over it, two really close friends. A man I have referenced to, I'm sure you wouldn't mind him speaking, is Dr. Jackson, a well I: Um-hmm. U: Originally from Michigan, well-respected veterinarian. Although He was ------------' and,~ he endeavored to have some informal type of bi-racial committee, with his lectures. And he went through a hammer's hell, with his friends. just really didn't speak to him, thats all, because, not that he wanted to completely change the ... F: ,.w~-- I: Um hmm. U: the community, but, I felt sorry for him, for a while. I didn't come to his defense. I: Um hmm. .J.-o U: I continued to speak w.i-\"eh him, but an awful lot of people just CR ST.A 3A sj page 12 didn't do a damn thing, either way. And I think that the pressures were definately Why it I: Do you have any thoughts as to why Martin Luther King, and . [Sov.-\\J,...t.,,.,_, C.i-n.1s./-1A,.., l-is nr,• ~~flll\" CurvGnc.,ce J 5 C LC.. came to St. Augustine? U: Sure. I thought, I think it was a secluded building for our %t'.A\"\"J12~\"--centennial, in '65. There was goiing to be some media attention focused on St. Augustine, we didn't go overboard as to ' as celebrations went. And, consequently, he would ride that, as well as the media coverage that he had anyway. Jhe first white settlement in the United States would be a great place to kick off this really radical departure. I: Um hmm. U: Over ~ivil ~ights act. I: Um hmm. U: Wherever they'd _jμo'--4r~w,__~~~ the settlement, all the doors in restuarants and motels would be open. I: Um hmm. U: I don't think he became the cause of any so-called hardship cases, or mistreatment, on behalf of the black community. Just those \u003e.'·.~l . certain things. 5\\: \u003cJ I: Ther·e was some accent, I know, made by James .Draco Lamonson, who got an inordinate amount of criticism for what happened at his motel, a lot of which, as I see, wasn't really his fault. And it seemed to me, on occasion, he tried to get things, tried to restoreA°\" sort of normal relationship. U: He did. That, now thats the example of what I'm talking about. arock was in the middle. He was damned if he did, and damned if CR ST.A 3A sj page 13 he didn't. There was going to be black pickets in front of his D~J place, orAhe took the blacks in, there were going to be white pickets in front. And so the people that were really I: Um hmm. U: I mean, if you're traveling through town with your family, you I : don't want to ruin your vacation, have your car messed up, or your sleep disturbed. And so this, this poor guy was getting it from both ends, and he was in the middle, he had a big mortgage payment, and he was just totally frustrated, he didn't know which way to turn. The thing is, one of the things that struck me, he, he did make an effort to get the motel and restuarant owners together, and they had some meetings, and Noel Pope\\~~\\ was asked to be sort of their spokesman, and he did, and yet the thing never seemed to get off the ground, and I was, you know, again this goes back to the business sort of thing. The thing that struck me was, here was an opportunity for the business community sort of come together as a group. People who weren't directly involved in this sort of activities, and those that were and get these /took elements out of St. Augustine, the Klan, from, seemed like f J k . 11 IA.· d . Ki~C. rom ac sonvi e, to me) ~n ~' an d , yo. u . k.n. ow. , estab l.i s h relationships that the community could live with. And yet, it didn't come together~~didn't seem to get off the ground, nor dfd it, nor did the whole white business community seem to come together. And, it also seemed to me they got little cooperation from Dr. Shelley, who was mayor of the commission that day. I wonder if you had any thoughts as to, if I'm right, first of all, CR ST.A sj and why this might ~ave been. page 14 U: I've got some ideas about it. Thats the weakness of law enforcement. ·The Sheriff, Chief of Police, Chief of Police Burgess )-/e_t.rJAf\u003cS , was extreme right wing, and he doesn't say too much about it now, but at that time, he saw Communists behind every bush. He didn't think there was one there, he saw them. And, stop him in the street, and he'd refer to \"they're\" doing this, and \"they're\" doing that, but he couldn't put a name on who \"they\" was. But, he, and the Sheriff, was the two only law enforcement agencies we had. Uh, were not instrumental in fairly enforcing the law. It was not to hear this. They, they couldn't have designed a system any more favwrable to King's movement than the way they did. I: Um hmm. U: I had occasion to meet W~th the sheriff, I believe of Selma, - - '-,- -------- Al ab ama, or one of the places who had just had problems with King. I: Um hmm. U: And I forget his name, now, but it, he was a big one. And, I asked him a question, law enforcement. He said, \"I sent word to the white community, and I sent word to the black community, that I was going to put my foot in their Gu'l. \u003e\\J! ... ~ t\" collar, and there were anybody who was ,.._, ~c.C:-nR-n1.es.5 , I ~~~~~~~~~ didn't care wh_at Co\\o'Q, II ~\\\u003cctJ And~ had St. Augustine ~aking a~-fair attitude toward all lawbreakers, a firm law enforcement ...• We were running into a lot of problems. With that, the redneck element and the right wing element, and law enforcement, were working to put this fire out. And not to a fair concept, but CR ST.A 3A sj not to a fair administration of justice in I: Um hmm. page 15 Cgun Ly • ....._ ----- U: And, that was clear, because you'd have a demonstration get out of hand, black guy would be arrested, and his bond would be a hundred dollars, white guy, ten dollars. You think we joke. I: Uh uh. U: I can't accept that \"S'\\-1--v-.~\\-'°,.J end side one CR ST.A 3A side 2a page 16 sj o....c. e.e 1\"' t-' U: I can'1ei ther ten dollars or a hundred dollars, if you and I were whipping up on each other, I: Um hmm. U: The bond ought to be the same. Unless there's good reason, thats just bullshit. I: In, uh, you know, in, yet in 1965, when a few of you were celebrating the 400th anniversary, or on the eve, really, I guess it was going to happen in within a week. And, King was saying, from afar, out in Atlanta someplace, wherever he happaned to be, \"If things don't coG\u003el off completely there, I'm, I'm going to come back.\" And there were just some periodic, it was maybe a beating here or theTe, by a few of the rednecks, really, and not downtown, they happened to be around the peripheries of the community. But he said if things didn't calm down all together, that he would come back. And, what was significant to me, was that, Dr. Shelley, on the front page of the paper, The St. Augustine Record, warned both sides that violence of any sort would not be permitted, people would be prosecuted, they could count on a heavy fine, and a stiff jail sentence. U: person. I: And, uh, then the, I think it was either the next day or the day after, the sheriff, Sheriff Davis, also appeared on the front page of the paper, saying literally the same thing. My thought was, my question, I guess it is, could that sort of thing been done to Davis in 1964, to force him, the community forced him, either through Shelley, or through some other able white leader-ship, or was ag~in, the division, I guess, as you mentioned, CR ST.A 3A sj page 17 \"') - between this right-wing~ and the rest of the community so difficult? U: Well, the statements that you're talking about, in the newspaper, wAv\u003cL that was the second or third w4ftg of this thing. The tail end of it. F: Yeah, right. U: Had the first, uh, wave, or trouble been met with that sort of -/1,c;'r a firm statement, -44; was not tongue in cheek, and I'm not convinced it wasn't tongue in cheek F: Right. U: Because the \\_Y.!.1m1,.,,f}t.. Jod,e.+~ would reflect this I : kind of strong law enforcement. But you've got to remember that Davis was immensely popular at that time, and I'd been the prosecuting attorney, and had an awful lot of trouble with \"DAvts. qtvc_, J,.. e.,, /,.I ~ N'TC D --these cases in warn.i+l.g convicted, we got convictions, but I got good reports, and cases he didn't want convicted, the records got lost, the evidence _got lost. It was just a real horrible thing' and I had occasion to go to Tallahassee to XI! \"j~ c,J/11 ~$,) to Tv..lJ.5c.. 13n.y,,.\"'1- Jo te.Jl cA_~o~+ -ff,r:\u003et f1t1wr,r; . lJe had no staff here. A lot of people in the State's /l+fo._. ... q's office was not near 1 y as we 11 eq ui ppe d ___________[_ o.._s i_t:-=\u003eIJ'-- is now. And we were constantly after the sheriff to do his, \u003c.job. But, he had this great popularity. _._U~~;:__kJ_~~s------~ an extremely personable guy, with this element that I'm talking about, and he even had a in his life, ·he just had a magnitude. He sure was lax when it came to him personally. I\\- w '?\\ '\u003e 'j 1:h .. , .,.. _l)'-' I t' s 0 they t ottl\"d me _·0 _v.._\u003cl_\"\"_· ------- 9weiJ that ~ the popularity,it CR ST.A 3A sj page 18 was very difficult, if not impossible to control. U: Yeah, He, when he'd go in there and draw eighty percent of the vote, a group of businessmen can't go through and say, \"Look, now you'd better shape up.\" And in a very nice way, he, he wouldn't / t skr-J J-v '-1) and he wouldn't But he was eventually removed. Its a long time to I: I, I've heard that, that Mr. Wolf, when your father work~d sort of behind the scenes to try to ease things, uh, I'll ask your father this as well, but, I was wondering if you were familiar with~,~~/, any steps they took behind the scenes to. I know Mr. Wolf was particularly committed to the celebration of the quadracentennial, that he was very active in it. U: He was also in the position, along with about six or eight other \\,-If-) N\"\\-t ~t. {-...:\u003e men, that I had known, that had they *n-e-wrr, and I considered them leaders of the community. Guys that had been the mayors, guys that have been in the Senate, that had amassed personal fortunes, and were now letting sons and relatives, friends go under the table, on a day to day. These guys were your senior citizens with plenty of influence statewide and concerns ( = _ A nationwide. There's many things that -flt'! c..u1. •. U ht\u003c111c.Jor1\u003c \u003e ~\"'* c;; ':::::::\u003e didn't do, simply because they thought it was a bad dream, that it woald all go away. They didn't want to be labeled as a μ10ue17. 7 'l • ,, as a nigger-lover. Or to have a cross burned in their yard. And, as you look back on it, it seems simple or trite that that could influence the people. But it was really influential, it I l 1 ' was a big thing to them. Ta avoid theJ b ~G labe~f a nigger- ~ lover. ) CR ST.A 3A sj page 19 I: You~ ... U: I don~t know if your other interviewees have expressed that opinion or not, but I really think that, that, uh, these elements VvL 7rcA-~\"\"' \"e­effective leadership. Your have a tendency to quiet your I: Is, was it meant, was it kind of a small town nature of the U: I : \" -, ,_ community that sort of made it difficult to un-, say\\ take this -.. ·, · ... '·.\\ .. '-,·\", independent stand? I know in Little Rock, for example, there, the business community there, you don't hear much of, you never hear much about this. I guess its up to us historians to publicize more. The business community in Little Rock, which clt-J, is a much bigger community, ~take this sort of independent stand, I was wondering if it was sort of the small community of St. Augustine that made it difficult. ., (_,\\,_\\S: o\\- r~\\l\u003c.-L • I think so. Every, you know, its not ybur g~aper p!ac;_~_, its not the sheriff. Every job had a name and a face, and we knew this. Everybody is so well known, it makes it a lot more difficult. Just a reflection. I've seen the figures, but I was wondering do _;ik; you recall, kind of in a qualitative way, how bad business was hurt, in '64. U: I'm sure that '64 and '65 the :touri~t industry was hurt. The rest of the business, I was not aware \u003cif ttre _~___,'li--\"\"\"(_'~_er_c._T_ic._c._c._1-._A_\"'_i_f} I: Uh huh. :rr: The '65 are up:·here too, I mean the quadricentennial, it appears to me, never, as a consequence of '64, became what everybody hoped it would become. Is that an inaccurate reflection on my part? An inaacurate picture? It seemed like it was. U: I think that, uh, yeah. I think its trouble to a new program, CR ST.A 3A sj page 20 its true. I'll give you one example, and this, again, was \\!) o.. S l'l.-\"\"'P. \" { C1,·h zcr\"' s surf ace dancing. I was attorney for, im , Georgi a,-a ci ti~ei'l that was trying to get a federally G'\\: \"\"c ..... _ chartere:J savings and loan association. There was only one in the town. Only one savings and loan outlet. We had, it was a tremendous lot of red tape, but you had, eventually you had to go to Washington, h r\"'\"\"*\" ON c. h~Ar\u003c..JN6. ]-took about a week, you had to try a need and necessity. We did that, in '64, early spring of '64. Then, the hearing officer made his report, to the homeowned bank board, and they granted the charter, or denied it. We'd been denied once before, in '6Z. All right. We had a much better application, much better, the evidence looked much better, the need looked great. By sheer coincidence, the hearing officer's reccomendation, all of our briefs, old transcripts, hit the desk of the federal Yomeowned Pank fioard on July the second, and that was the same day, within a day or two, of the passage of the f.ivil Rights A.ct. And, he would deny it. Okay. And I, just, some years later, made the same application, and it was granted, and c,...1c. t.JC,~~ t-o\"\"'rl1tr-r,,,dtJ doing a great job. But tha~s not the point. The hearing officer later became a private attorney, and got out of the federal work, and became an attorney, doing nothing but savings and loan applications. And I ran into him in Atlanta, and he said, \"I've always wanted to talk to you,\" he says, \"You know, I favorably recommended your application in '64.\" And I said, \"Well, I'm relieved to know that, I thought it was a good application.\" And he says, \"But let me tell you, St. Augustine could ~ave not gotten the Red • l,.J 1~·.(... Cross in July of '64) lf you could wc:rs-h it off the map with a CR ST.A 3A sj page 21 hurricane,\" he said, \"The federal government wouldn't have given a damn thing, because of this \" And I believe that. Thats just a one person example. And I think it carried over into '64. For example, another example, have you seen the cover of the, I just happen to have one, did you ever see this ,• \u003es \"\"-~ of the (Jeographic? ----'~'------ I: No, I didn't. U: All right, this came out in February of '66. Its a beautiful section on St. Augustine. This is just a reprint. But, this fellow, Connolly, that wrote it, this assistant editor \that came down here, was here, and this was keyed to be published prior 0r coincide with the celebration, which would have been in September, '65. And because of the racial problems, and this being a non-controversial magazine, they held it out, and did not publish it in this-C'~ome of the greatest advertising I know of. But it did not hit the newsstand until some five or six Io.At.A.. . months~. But it was keyed to come out in either September or August of that summer, when your real influx of tourists would have been expected. I: There was incredible pressure being brought to fo eo....VL , here in one the . . . . L ll vie.Ii\"''{ \\ -.l ·1 d.tJNl.\\- -H-1~\"f\u003c '1 lt\t\u003e'-l\"\" r,- Ao,_,..:\\· I\\ . A~ A U: ~--,,,..,.,.~question. Thi~fbeautiful piece of advertising which was - I: Um hmm. U: Thats a 1m\"''\"'\"\"\"TL'I respected periodical. I: Rigfit. This is true. U: But somebody got to them, and they held that thing up, and I was CR ST.A 3A sj page 22 I was totaled. /.J- \"\"\",.,~ \"(,.l}c.1\"1-t sfo~.y. I: Well, after, after '65, has it, has there been any problems at all since I saw, I think, one, one egg throwing at a Easter parade, but those were, those people from Jacksonville who threw the eggs. I haven't seen any reference to any problems after, really, '65. U: Not really. You see, the college out here closed. I : U: Um hmm. - \u0026 They were from Miami. Um, Hail~went to Melbourne, or something. And there may be black leadership. There was some [,__ b 11wk:.sfj] brothers) [ v--bnNK. lrJ They, they They've moved away. And I think St. Augustine, uh, segregations have been abolished, but as far as your relationship with the black community 1+1~ v.\\__,,,,__\\- /i-ke d (;JYJS. There are no blacks with responsible jobs. Particularly 1,v -/~ L school, and _:::_5~~~\"'-~t~c::.......:========----~ I: Did it take long for the old relationships to come back, the harmony that existed before, even though it was a different racial pattern, did it take long after the chaos of '64 for those relationships to be restored again, in the community, the white community uptight and the black community as well? U: I think some, within the community. Still bear a label of having , or or tried to create harmony, or racial hi n l'it.!fl'- 1 ------- committee. Although I'm sure the~, there are some scars. I: Um hmm. U: I have coffee every morning when I'm here, in the restaraunt. CR ST. A3A page 23 Any of our friends who want to drop in, but its pretty well in the h~n\u003c?... same group. And this guy who comes in t~e, that, I didn't know this, but its reported that he was very instrumental in helping the media people set up and be in the right place at the right time. He was kind of a early v.i..:c~.y:.. Ran a ptr-.l.J /1~ house next door. Young fellow, attracted me. He's since become ,te_o... \"ift~ ~ •.• a w=t4:t~ and~ well established in the community. And he still bears that label of having cooperated, with not the blacks, but the media. I: Um hmm. U: And getting ready for them, set up. ~e SL.ow u_s ,w a.._ bad I: U: light. ~Z.01 •. + ~If /N -f-l..t- We 11, this, I appreciate your tolerance, a..J...tho.!!gh I have;...an4 \"vt\\'! .,f wanted questions, I can't think of anything else that might be relevant. You have anything else ... ? No, I'd just like to ask you some questions. c ()Yl-{'\\\"i~! Sure.~1 was talking to your son about some of the things that happened. Let me just say, I, I've been over at Florida for six years now, at the University of Florida, and I'm, I've been teaching history for seven years. I went to the University of North Carolina, thats where I did my work, and graduated from Chapel Hill, I: Did you? U: I d J ,...), .. ! ;[' ltl , f t~ ~! I: Well, I'd one of the war before that. Went to Vietnam before I .. U: Well, I went to war, first World War. I: Well, you went to a little better war, in terms of sense of play. CR ST. A 3A page 24 But, uh, I've done, I had, I had written one book on the, on Florida gubernatorial politics in the twentieth century, the study of the governor's office, the campaigns, and that sort of got me interested in race relations in Florida, because I, I always saw Florida while I was doing that work as a rather progressive IN state, and I wanted to find out why. And, and looking at it, I got interested in St. Augustine, and what happened here, and why it happened here, so, basically, I think tha~s what I want to talk to you about. As a man who has been in a leadership position in St. Augustine for some time, and knows it very well. I'd like to talk to you about that. I was wondering, why, when you came to St. Augustine, were you, was your family here already, or did you move? U: I moved down here. Moved to /e11..,AivTJ11vt1 ~~~~~~~---~~~~~~~-1-~~~ 1925. I: Did you come to set up a law practice here, or did you come as a r 4· k'f /II(_ t'l- ? U: I came as a --f-~_n_,_N~'ti...~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I: Where did you do your, your work, and where did you recieve your education, your legal education? U: Florida. I: At the University of Florida? Is that where you graduated from after you left Chapel Hill, and went to the war? U: No, I went to Florida first. I : · Oh, I see. U: I graduated ~~~~~~~~~~ live in '-f-A.rc.. Florida, then I went up to Chapel Hill. high school, and I thought it was wrong to CR ST.A 3A page 25 I: If what, could you tell me what St. Augustine was like as, as you were a young man here, as you lived here, you. U: It was very similar to what it is now; hasn 1 t been much change. /Jeoelt Of\\-'-- f f,op/-e_ . ... l.apf t since the, since the restoration I: When did the, when did the restorations start? Was it underway when you were here? w~k ttJ~l\"\"C:) U: No, it was not. It started w en )/e S-fft11-k ti , i-- \u0026~ t - /N T11)1c.,~r'1SSte \u003elnnl-t.f A- Co\"'m rr.sMJ ~ Wtt-F-, 1965, or maybe it was '64. I: It was sort of basically a small community. Were, were there .•.. U: Like it is now, except there's just C-._ tt v..J more people now. - I: Uh huh. Socially, how would you characterize it~ 'Was it, was there U: kind of a, was there a social elite in the city, or was it pretty open sort of city. 1;.,1 -ll\" Is a~;'\"' r er Well, there was a, there was a, it was different, -\u0026t le-a-st to h /Mt-5f- pnop,R+ION rt ft. I'. ~ We had a large po1,,.,__\\\"' or-'··· l~emen-tr-t1;~t--/1\u003efl(.),,...1 we.-YL\u003c- ' minorities. I: Uh huh. U: They feel fY\t.Jt')t ~11'1 fn-; ~ themselves, and when I: Uh, was the business community so, pretty much the leader, leadership of the community? U: No, everybody was about the same ~11 -ft .. t between, ~white people. \u003c:.. - leadership I: Uh hmm. Were the Minoc~ins any, did they~~~~- the city's leaders? CR ST.A3A page 26 U: I : U: - _,_.,,..-- some. fV'I IN' t't~ C, )l'I S Uh huh. What did most, most, where'd most of the ~-gs- C1*- t-reen on the economic ladder, have they held blue collar jobs, some blue collar I: Oh, uh, is, now this, is this the headquarters for the Florida ( n .R.?) East Coast, here is St. Augustine? U: Was, it was. I: When did, when did it move to Jacksonville? U: -Jacksonville. They still call this headquarters. I: Uh huh. They still call this the headquarters, though. I see. Uh, ~as, as you've been here, in the years you've been here, were there any racial problems at all, uh, prior to '64? U: Never. I: How 'bout, how long has that college, that Negro college been out there? That, uh, Florida Memorial College, I believe it was. U: It was here when I came. I: It was here when you came. U: It was for a while, I don't know _e_y_c-..__c_.~__,/7~~~~ I: Um hmm. Do you have any idea when one of the things, that seems to me rather remarkable about St. Augustine is that you have the Negroes and the whites living very close together, in some, some cases, they live on the same streets. There's very little, sort of) segregation in housing. Theres not kind of like a \"Negro . ( -~. town\" and a ,;1White town\", seems to me that both groups live very close together, if not next door to one another. I was CR ST.A 3A page 2 7 looking at the districts, and ... U: _?Ji_l_h1_....._f_l _~ --~-v_1 _~_(_~n_~_v_· ____ population has been here a long time. Um, across from the 01A.1t.. since it was \u003cA, school on out, and vrtty f-1,..,e.. 1-u {/...c1\"'- up there was wh.e-:re,-w·:h-e-cr-e-furtds--went...._ \"/)J-L~ QI,.., (,Nkl'\\ct ~~'\u003e {.,.i\u003c, NAVf'~ ? ..B.ut, uh, Pu. ii. ve ,.,,P-I: Was that~' or something? f,.._n_-1t~IQ.. U: No, p-er yea.Twas about uh, !'fi'('fif!S later. I: Uk huh. U: I: Was that, that, was that a Baptist school? f1,11..V'\\...'(t~'t P-e-r--y-e.a-i:. was f i 11 e d U: 1+-μf'\\S c I Yes, afi.4 a 13opl-t':;,f school~ /lr\"-' K.cno.JA'\u003eA \"'\"'(\\) o-..(!kh l\u003eI i .. n...t\"lr.r-CC~ c, m\u003e\"lN ,vl'H\"\"t 6niA'( C-4 t\"r1L=\". I g-rfrde chan-g.e. f,..JA:\u003e 11.J cJ\"\"\"-\"'i· ~ -,+- fl\\.t,.,.. 6nwr fc.f/ w.-.J wo.(- 'T Lfeotdb/1 F~M I : That was for an ------- U: And, uh, he was arrested for stealing I -1-/-..,..,-k ..up .tliere ,. JN-; Hr.lf.JLL•( C,or 1i,J o (' \"i»-- . Then they had another fellow nameJ. ~e. ON· And Pv...t\u003c..'Jf.r4t1- Lf 17 . Then there was~ L 117 t....i\"l'\u003e ,..,,{- \"\"- hr\u003c1.t Son__'\u003e-(.\"\u003cn~~ Ae \"\",,, /) +n.it:.J.. -J.v o...40/1H ~eG.P..e64/ltHV came, and /\"IA 1~ '( C'Yl~ was, he was um.,- -------- I: Was he in, he was ------ with that fellow /_/qi /Nv\u0026 U: Um hmm. I: Robert Hailing. U: Who was he? I: He was that dentist, theAfegro dentist. U: I, I don't.know him. Wait a minute. I: Yeah, these, the first one was CR ST.A 3A page 2 8 U: Oh, the first one was I: Yeah. U: I don't know much, much about that ~(_ll(\\w I: Okay. When did, uh, when did you become first aware that there was some racial problems here, that, that uh. u:w~~ ... /ri\"'l ia.lrn61'1i f!\\c.,..... 1\"\" I: Tlra t was ~i-d. l'Jo+ u r.-+1 t. In NG a.wv n.1+\u003c:1-'ll- P1ti\u003el:.l-t...,.,. \".('n.c • 1'J.!,,_c.. wasn't ~ I: Well, I was thinking of '63, uh, just to refresh your memory, when 'u~,' 'uh\\,. you had that white fellow, William Canard, who was killed while he was riding around in the Negro area with a shotgun, and, uh, you had the, the uh, Hailing, this fellow, this dentist Hailing, was,·went out to the Klan meeting and got hims~lf all beat up. That happened in '63. Did-they stop? U: Uh huh. I: Uh huh. Uh huh. U: I: So when King came, that was virtually good U: They had, they have a little ifcJi'J..,'t- lfl\"\\O~tN'I\" .t.~ _rHJ'l7H!N(, • a-1-o ng-t-1-me--runn1-n g ·. could walk down before, but When they, when they fixed it so pJ21mr1•~1e7 , we had a, a -±-trdy named I And, uh, he came up last I said, \"hey, And, uh, he uh, he said that he wanted _-h.._~V..J_o_~-~--======----~ 5 /en.Jf p,__,vf s;o ; IV I : \\Ai\"\" l.\" W\\\"\" U: And the perfectly good ------, he went out, and he started CR ST.A 3A page 29 the registration, and started with a. __ 7hri.-ct~c,Ji1 you cfeml).v t;,7n ~in.:\u003e.....- know. Didn ~ t do that much a..dmHH:-s-t ta ti on, I know. Now, if somebody had a, had a, started a demonstration here, I don't -~ know who~was. Bubba told me that the, uh, the NAACP, he said brhu. .# jhr_ he had ~ to it, and joined it. 'cause he thought it was a good thing for the people, and then they kept after his money, and he, he didn't give them any money, just paid his dues, and they broke his windows out. He had a real estate office then. He won't, I told him He went out and put this Some, some militant t-ft-i-rrg/VC..Gno d.dlit- I: Um hmm. U: Least tha~s what he thought, and I think so too. And then they had a demonstration down at the courthouse one day, /p.rt- bt.to'(Q..\u003c?... I : U: the judge. :r don't know why they were demonstrating. r~~hink thats what happened. Robbers in the courthouse singing He~\u003e t I some songs. The sheriff, I was made a deputy :t~ ()...,..r.i.. .. h...\u003c- ~-put him in charge of it, and he got all wild, and It wouldn't have been bad, lot of them were drinking to it, and I COUTS e this thing ~·)1- \\mJ; •. \\T \u003c; !) (,I'\\ J. wasn't no, no violence. ·um hmm. -\\\"~ t~ t..\u003e\u003c'..'~-(... but, there They're mostly child.rert n9w,}\\~children-from1the schoil\u003el, you know. . . I Perhaps I: Why do you think King came here? Why do you think Martin Luther King came here? I U:fi Well, at that time, we were, we were, it was war, we were about CR ST.A 3A page 30 to celebrate our fotir hundreth anniversary here, and they heard there's a whole lot of publicity in the paper for it. 1L- ~e.-..dr..,f ~11'7:\u003e appointed a commision of, that we we~e gonna ' C..\" ...._IV\\\u0026~~ JO ..J going to c~on, . AL \u0026rc1 if {!of.'L it, ~i-n-t.G There were three or four of us planning on pub lici ty. Um, I don't _f(_rJ_o1;-._1_ _= t-'-1l_ ~_{_,t~_•.;;..;'-\"';_;_·,'\"-+f-...{. \"'-\"\" \"'c'\"-'1;1\"\"\"c' .\"•\"\" ..:...~t_· -+-f_,--f-.~.\"'\"c'..:...~---- • r_, -~ I: So he was gonna take advantage of the four hundreth anniversary to get a lot of publicity. U: Get a lot of the publicity. Tha.t., s, that's , that was what I thought. I: Uh huh. U: Least there was any, they had a couple of parades, I went on the government parade, cc3c r ;J ~. CL~-1-o\"Mul;I., ()\\..,.-..__.Q wC\\.lr.l·v_.l tf · l..J~ik. _.;,;;:;:;;,..:::.._;\"-'--_=.;:;:;..;_,.__ ___________ __;_~:;;_;:.;::_:._.:.__ -io t of· people partying, and. . I: Was most of the trouble caused by outsiders, like King, and some~ Klan people from Jacksonville? U: I think practically all the Nc.c.ru.1e-s were outsiders. Now, I've been here a long time, and I know some .Negroes. Um, and I went out and sat out in the fi\"'-rvtv-.oetl-t and watche.d the parade, and I didn't see a s ingleANegro·- that -I-lQl:ew, not one. Now, there had to be, most of them had to be outsiders. And the same thing was true with the white, with the white ones. We were just a stagelwv~ - I .LI I C.ll.IA~fNC. c..,fl -/{,.1-{- W1ts1-i 4- /f;Jyf\"11,.J c / ;.1 Sf /J,,7 .... ·; 1'1N\u003cL 1 \".rt-'1 va-use:d::::fio-o-tfte::~ disturbance. I: Did the uh, did the white people in St. Augustine, I'm sure they must have been angry, at what was happening, did they try, did somebody like yourself, or Mr. Wolf try and get these people out CR ST.A 3A page 31 of here? U: Uh, well the, the uh, newspaper people went in there, and that boy, um, he, he's a young fellow, that doesn't really have much. ffe gave -J-/LL- ,.,~{v-\u003e~i'\u003e\"'f\u003e(\"t / favor~te reporters a ring. And, of course, all the demonstration went there,King went over there, you know, where, where you, publicity. I: Um hmm. U: And, uh, the whole thing was staged in the function. So you see, right over there. He tried to get in a car to follow me, you know, I: Yeah. U: But he refused to let 'em go. He was wrong. reporters \"r .',_,.,... 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