{"response":{"docs":[{"id":"gych_rogp_041","title":"Hugh Gillis, 25 July 2008.","collection_id":"gych_rogp","collection_title":"Reflections on Georgia Politics oral history collection, 2006-2010","dcterms_contributor":["Short, Bob, 1932-"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, Georgia, 32.75042, -83.50018"],"dcterms_creator":["Gillis, Hugh M.(Hugh Marion), 1918-2013","Short, Bob, 1932"],"dc_date":["2008-07-25"],"dcterms_description":["Gillis recalls his father's role in the creation of Treutlen County 1917 and other life events that inclined him to a life of politics. Elected to the House of Representatives in 1940, Gillis talks about the history of the Georgia Democratic Party under the influence of leaders such as Eugene Talmadge and Ed Rivers. According to Gillis, the Henry Grady Hotel served as a hotbed of Georgia politics, since most legislators stayed there during the legislative session. Gillis discusses the Three Governors Controversy and Herman Talmadge's subsequent governorship, including his implementation of the sales tax and his support of the Southern Manifesto. Gillis also discusses Melvin Thompson's and Ellis Arnall's later political careers. Gillis discusses his experience working under Governor Marvin Griffin, including his experiences with corruption in the Purchasing Department and the Highway Department. He also recalls his time serving under the Ernest Vandiver administration, including his experience regaring the integration of the Univeristy of Georgia. Gillis mentions personal experiences with other legislators including Peter Zack Geer, Carl Sanders, Joe Frank Harris, Sonny Purdue, Roy Barnes, Culver Kidd and Zell Miller. Gillis extensively discusses the politics and character of Lester Maddox.","Finding aid available in repository.","Related materials are available in the following collections of this repository: Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection, ROGP 040 James L. Gillis, Jr.; James L. Gillis, Sr. Papers.","Hugh Gillis was born in Soperton, Georgia on September 6, 1918. Gillis is the grandson of Treutlen County founder and state representative Neil Gillis, the son of state senator and highway commissioner Jim L. Gillis, and brother of Jim L. Gillis, Jr. Gillis attended Georgia Military College, and in 1939 received an undergraduate degree in agriculture from the University of Georgia. In 1941, he ran successfully for the Georgia House of Representatives. He served two terms, one from 1941 to 1944, and the other from 1949 to 1956. Meanwhile, he started his own company, Gillis Ag and Timber. Gillis was elected twice to the Georgia Senate, the first time in 1957, and the second in 1962. He would hold that seat for the next forty-two years, making him the longest-serving member of the Georgia General Assembly. In the senate, he was elected president pro tempore, and served on the Appropriations Committee. Working to bring doctors to rural communities, Gillis was influential in the creation of the dental school at the Medical College of Georgia in Augusta. He also served as head of the Natural Resources Committee, a seat which he held until his retirement in 2004.","Interviewed by Bob Short."],"dc_format":["video/mp4"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection","http://sclfind.libs.uga.edu/sclfind/view?docId=ead/RBRL220ROGP.xml"],"dcterms_subject":["Georgia. General Assembly. House of Representatives","Democratic Party (Ga.)","University of Georgia","Governors--Georgia","Taxation--Georgia","Political corruption--Georgia","College integration--Georgia--Athens","College integration","Governors","Political corruption","Political participation","Politics and government","Taxation","Treutlen County (Ga.)--History","Georgia--Politics and government","Georgia","Georgia--Athens","Georgia--Treutlen County"],"dcterms_title":["Hugh Gillis, 25 July 2008."],"dcterms_type":["MovingImage"],"dcterms_provenance":["Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-041/ohms"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection, ROGP 041, Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Libraries, Athens, Georgia, 30602-1641."],"dlg_local_right":["Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule."],"dcterms_medium":["oral histories (literary works)","interviews"],"dcterms_extent":["1 interview (89 min.) : sd., col."],"dlg_subject_personal":["Perdue, Sonny, 1946-","Sanders, Carl, 1925-2014","Miller, Zell, 1932-2018","Talmadge, Eugene, 1884-1946","Kidd, Culver, 1914-1995","Thompson, M. E. (Melvin Ernest), 1903-1980","Talmadge, Herman E. (Herman Eugene), 1913-2002","Vandiver, S. Ernest (Samuel Ernest), 1918-2005","Gillis, Hugh M. (Hugh Marion), 1918-2013","Barnes, Roy E. (Roy Eugene), 1948-","Maddox, Lester, 1915-2003","Geer, Peter Zack","Griffin, Marvin, 1907-1982","Harris, Joe Frank","Gillis, Jim L., 1892-1975","Arnall, Ellis Gibbs, 1907-1992","Rivers, Eurith Dickinson, 1895-1967"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":"Hugh Gillis interviewed by Bob Short \r\n2008 July 25 \r\nSoperton, GA \r\nReflections on Georgia Politics \r\nROGP-041 \r\nOriginal: video, 90 minutes \r\n \r\nsponsored by: \r\nRichard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies \r\nUniversity of Georgia Libraries \r\nand \r\nYoung Harris College \r\n \r\nDate of Transcription:  September 27, 2009 \r\n \r\nBOB SHORT:  Im Bob Short and this is another chapter in the series, Reflections on Georgia Politics, sponsored by the Richard Russell Library at the University of Georgia.  Hugh Gillis, of Soperton, Georgia, served 55 years and 7 months as a State Representative and as a Senator.  That, Im sure, is a record that will never broken, and were delighted today to have Senator Gillis as our guest on Reflections on Georgia Politics.   \r\nSenator, before we get on that long road down your career as a public servant, lets talk about the Gillises and the impact you and your family have had on the State of Georgia, beginning with your grandfather, who I understand helped create Treutlen County. \r\n \r\nHUGH GILLIS:  Right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And your father, Mr. Jim Gillis, who was in the legislature at the same time as your grandfather. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Yes.  Well, my grandfather was in the Senate representing Emanuel County, and an area over that in that territory, and my father had moved across Felden[ph] Creek over into Montgomery County and was farming over there and he campaigned all over this Montgomery County in a horse and buggy, and visited one home right after another, and I think he spent a good bit of time, uh, politicking and  and defeated, you probably remember Joe Underwood served -- he defeated his father -- \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  -- for the House of Representatives, and then in 1917, that was probably 1916.  In 1917, my grandfather introduced a bill in the Senate to create Treutlen County, and it was part of Emanuel, part of Montgomery, and, it passed the House and then came over to the Senate and it passed the Senate.  So, that  after the county was created, then, we had to build a courthouse and all of the necessary buildings and so forth for the county to operate.  And there was already a little village here that  built by  the railroad came through and, uh, and a lot of the employees and different ones built homes and created the town of Soperton prior to that.  So Soperton became the head -- in fact the only town in the -- in the county.  There were some country stores scattered around in the county, but, no  nothing other than one or two little filling stations or grocery stores. \r\n \r\nSHORT: Well, your father, Mr. Jim, as he was known, served 24 years as head of the Highway Department.  I guess thats how you got interested in politics. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Yeah.  My father was always interested, and, of course, he got the family, and my grandfather, and every Sunday afternoon, we would meet up over at my grandfathers home and have Sunday lunch and spend the afternoon socializing and talking about business and politics and, among it all, we all stayed really interested in what was going on politically in the State of Georgia. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  They tell the story around the capital about the time when Governor Ernest Vandiver, sent you and a group of senators over to see your father, Mr. Jim, in the Highway Department to tell him that they were about to cut his budget.   \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  [Laughs] Well, thats true.  Uh, Ernest had -- Governor Vandiver had to cut a lot of the Departments budgets.  Yeah, as you know, you have to live within the budget, and to do so you have to work on the various departments and so they did come over to see him and he had a habit of not  of course, there was nothing he could do about it, so he had a habit of just sort of whistling when somebody tells him something like that, and thats about all he had as a reaction he had to it.  He  of course, he had to cut the budget to agree with the governor.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You were elected to the House of Representatives in 1940. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Did you have any election that year?  Did you have an opponent that year? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  No.  Luckily, Mr. Jim Fowler was our representative here in the county and he had decided not to run, and my father and my brother and several members of the family encouraged me to go out around the county and feels some pulses and see what they thought about me running, so I had just gotten out of the university in 1939, and I did  I found a lot of support, so I announced and was elected to the House of Representatives and Gene Talmadge, Eugene Talmadge, just was the Governor of Georgia at that time.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm.  Back in those days there was only one party and that was the Democratic Party. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  But there were factions within the Democratic Party -- \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Exactly right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  -- that opposed each other, and a lot of people, generally referred to them as the Talmadges and the Rivers'.   \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Yeah.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Which one of those factions were you associated with? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Well, really I was, probably, with the Rivers faction because my daddy was a real close friend of Ed Rivers, and he had put my father on the Highway Board. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And, uh, we had created a lot of jobs and built a lot of roads in  in this area of Georgia.  In fact, in the State of Georgia, they did.  But I had a little help, but I tell  often told people, if you went over to the Capitol during those days, and you were not on the Talmadge side, you might as well stay at the Henry Grady Hotel. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  [Laughs] \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  But, Roy Harris was still in the house and luckily, I got a seat on the front row on the left of the speakers stand.  You know where Im talking about. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Front row. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Right. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And I was sitting between Roy Harris and Fred Hand, and both of those were expert politicians and knew probably government better than anybody else in the  at the Capitol.  And, uh, I had a lot of good help from them.  And I imagine you remember one named  you remember [indiscernible] Matthews,  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Very well. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  From Athens. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yes, sir. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  He was  he was in that group. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mr. University. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Yeah.  I dont think there was over about 23 or 24 that were close Rivers people, so called, or at  we were not anti-Talmadges that much, but we didnt have to vote for everything that he proposed, so occasionally there might be 25 or 30 votes opposing whatever the governor wanted, which didnt amount to much, but. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Who was speaker then? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  I believe he had Randall Evans.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Randall? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Over the -- \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Thompson \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Out near  near --   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Augusta \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Augusta.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Right.  But when you came to the -- \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Randall  incidentally, Randall had never been in politics much and, especially never had been in the legislature, and he didnt know a whole lot about being a speaker, so it was right amusing  you know, Roy Harris and Fred Hand were experts, and they enjoyed keeping him in trouble. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  [Laughs]  Well, when you got there, Senator, back in those days, the governor ran about everything, including the General Assembly.  How was it to serve under a powerful governor like that? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Well, there again, you didnt have a whole lot of work to do.  They didnt  they would not put us on as chairman of any committees or, we didnt have to stay over at the Capitol all day afternoon working.  We could  back and to from the Henry Grady Hotel, and that was the headquarters for almost all the legislators, so it was  it was real  Id say real interesting and  and no problem.  I mean, we never got in any trouble.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Speaking of the Henry Grady, they say that more laws were passed and more campaigns settled at the Henry Grady than there was at the Capitol.  \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Well, I think that might have been true. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  [Laughs] \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Because at night we didnt have any  anything in particular to do but talk politics and visit around from one room to the other.  And it was just a real pleasure, and  and interesting to see what was going on over there after  after dark.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yeah.  So, I think it was 1942 that a young Attorney General by the name of Ellis Arnall was elected Governor and you were there. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  What do you remember about Governor Arnall? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Well, Governor Arnall was going to reform our state government, and did, change a lot of  a lot of government operations and, it was entirely a different group operating than what the Talmadge faction was, so, I think  another thing, World War II had started and there was hardly no funds  extra funds.  In fact, all the  all the departments were cut real bad and, everything, was, quiet and, we tried to get by the best we could with  with what we had, and Ellis Arnall didnt have a lot  a lot to do with. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  But, uh, I think he made a good governor as far as  as far as that goes. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well he certainly had a national reputation. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Oh, yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And his prison reform and, and also he was a  I think the first governor in the country to pass a bill that allowed 18 year olds to vote. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Thats  thats exactly right, and he created the office of Lieutenant Governor.  Thats another thing he did.  And I think he set up the merit system and set up several constitutional boards -- \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  -- so he did a good job in kind of reorganizing the state government. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  In the past, its been run directly out of the Governors office or from the leaders in the House and the Senate that were friends of the Governor. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm.  Then came 1946.  That was the year of Georgias three governors.  Im sure you remember that.  You were  you were up there, \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And, you know, we  we read a lot about that in the history books, but we seldom have an opportunity to talk to somebody who was there.   \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Now you were there.  Tell us all about it. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Well, it was a  everything had been operating kind of smooth because of the shortage of the budget, and it was  the budget was still short, but the three governors created a lot of discussion and excitement-- \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm \r\n \r\nGILLIS: -- As far as the legislature was concerned, and, I tell you, I never have seen anything before or since like that. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Uh-huh.  Gene Talmadge was elected governor for the fourth time and then died. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Right.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And then it left you with Governor Arnall, who would not give up the office after Talmadge was elected by the Legislature, and Melvin Thompson, who had been elected Lieutenant Governor, but not sworn in, so that was  that  that  that election came to a vote, and you were in the Legislature, and you got to vote on it, didnt you? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Yes, I did. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And  and how did you vote, if you dont mind telling us? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Well, the three governors were Herman Talmadge -- and Herman served 63 days.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And then court ruled that, uh, he was a  see, Arnall had created the Lieutenant Governors Office, and the court ruled that the Lieutenant Governor was to be Governor.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  So, I was  like you say, I was in the House, and after the court ruled, I run down to the Governors Office the next morning to see what the Governor was going to do, and every door was wide open and there was no Talmadge employee or appointee down there.  It was  they just cleaned house and left it up to M. E. Thompson to take over. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  But the three governor race was tough and, of course, Herman, they  he was involved in it because they claimed he got some write-in votes, \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And was second, and should  should be governor instead of M.E., and thats what the Legislature went on. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And, of course, the Talmadges had more friends in the Legislature than M.E. had.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And they elected Herman, but, like I said, the courts didnt agree to that, and it was a  sort of a knock down, drag out battle.  Ellis Arnall tried to stay on because he said he was going to stay on as governor until it was settled.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And when Herman was elected by the Legislature, they went down and saw to it that Arnall was put out of office, and they moved him out.  He set him up an  office out in the rotunda of the Capitol and two of the Talmadge close buddies picked him up, I think, and carried him out the front door.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  So that left it up to Herman for the 63 days. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm.  Talmadge very gracefully accepted that court decision, and a lot of people think that helped pave the way for him to run two years later -- \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  -- against Thompson, which he did, and he won. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And he was governor for six years.  He had some very progressive ideas.  He created the sales tax.  He did a lot of things.   \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Well, the state needed money and he had to have some more taxes, so he put taxes on cigarettes and tobacco and gasoline and various other items that brought in enough money for him to have a progressive state government by  from the funds that the new taxes brought in. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm.  He was also very much involved in the Southern Manifesto, which was signed by all the governors opposing the Federal Court decisions on school integration. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Yeah.  All during that time there was a big problem with integration and -- Marvin Griffin and Herman -- and Herman Talmadge and Lester Maddox -- a lot of our governors were not for integrating our schools.  But Ellis Arnall agreed with  he was the former Attorney General, knew a lot about law and he agreed with the courts on it.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  So, Ellis Arnold, his group finally won out the decision and thats the reason Herman had to vacate.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm.  It was  it was during that period that -- that Senator Talmadge was first elected into that job that they go to Washington, and he defeated for the second time Melvin Thompson, as you recall, to  for that Senate seat.  Thompson had a very tough time as governor, didnt he? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  He sure did, and of course the Legislature was not with him, and when you are the governor and the Legislature is not supporting you -- House and the Senate --  you got problems, and that was  that was the main reason that M.E. could not make a success.  \r\n  \r\nSHORT:  Marvin Griffin was Lieutenant Governor during the six years of the Talmadge Administration, and he decided to run for governor against a group of  individuals, which  also included other friends of  of Herman Talmadge.   \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And Griffin won, and served six years.  You were there while Griffin was Lieutenant Governor, werent you? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And now hes governor.  What sort of a governor was he? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Well, Griffin was a  a great fellow to be around.  He liked to tell jokes and have fun and a lot of afternoons hed come over to the hotel and join in with us and we  we always enjoyed seeing him regardless of whether you were for him or not.  And he  he knew how to handle those kind of things.  He was  he didnt let you not voting for him stand between you and his friendship.  In fact, after he left the governorship and his wife died, and he remarried again, he and his wife  new wife -- stopped by in this office right here to see me. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  He had a tough time.  We had some people that he appointed to run the Highway Department and the Purchasing Department, and they had friends that wanted to make some money [laughs] and they did.  And, for instance, I believe I told you earlier before we had this  came in this office -- that I was a John Deere Dealer for about 24 or 5 years.  Somebody brought me a copy of a purchase order on about 8 or 10 John Deere tractors and the price of them.  And I looked at it, and it was 10% above retail, so I had a little committee appointed in the Senate and  and I happened to be chairman of it  to go down to the Purchasing Department to check on it down there and see just who bid on these tractors.  And, I dont know whether you remember a little short senator, George Jackson, from up there in Gray. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  He was one of them, and there were two others, I believe.  But anyway, we go down there and I handed this purchase order to the secretary, and I said, \"We want to see the bids.  Im the chairman of this committee from the Senate, and we want to see these bids on these particular items.\"  And she disappeared and never came back.  But in about ten minutes, out comes the Purchasing Director, and he proceeded to lay the law down to us and really used a lot of bad words and he was going to have us all locked up, this, that, and the other.  But he was looking at little George Jackson all the time he was doing that, and little George reached into his pocket and pulled out a switchblade, and opened it up and he told him, he said, \"You  yeah, you better not have  but Im going to cut you down to my size.\" \r\n \r\nSHORT:  [Laughs] \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And he knocked the door down running back into his Purchasing Department and slammed the door.  Well, there wasnt anything else we could do but leave, so we left.  And I went back up to the Senate and in about ten minutes, Governor Griffin called and wanted me to come down to his office.  So I went down there.  He said, Hugh, what in the world is going on?  I said, Nothing Governor, except I took this purchasing order down there with my committee and asked them to let us see the bidders, and they would not show us the bids, and they would not even talk to us.  And in fact, they talked  the Purchasing Director talked rough to us, so we left.  And thats about  thats all there was to it.\"  He said, Well, we'll buy some red ones then. And I said, Well thats up to you what color you buy.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yeah.  John Deere being green. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Yes.  Yeah.  But anyway, they  they had a bad time with the Purchasing Department and the Highway Department.  They had a lot of roads left that didnt come up. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well he ran on a platform of paving rural roads. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  But he did not retain Mr. Jim. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  No.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  He put somebody else in, Roger Lawson.  \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  I believe, and I don't know that Mr. Lawson knew a whole lot about building highways.  But anyway, during that period, Ernest Vandiver was Lieutenant Governor. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And Ernest Vandiver and Griffin managed to get into a big fight over the rural roads bill.   \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And it sort of split up the Legislature there for a while.  You were there.  Do you remember that? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  I was there and I remember the fight, but Ernest Vandiver was trying to build rural roads in Georgia.  Thats what he wanted to do.  And, of course, transportation or Highway  Highway Department he called it then, they had certain roads they wanted to bid  build.  And they wanted to let them to contract like they had been doing, and which, according to the courts, were not  some of them were not very legal.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  So that  that brought them a lot of problems. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Then Vandiver runs for Governor and succeeds Griffin.  And Griffin had managed to find an opponent for Vandiver.  A fellow named Bill Bodenheimer.  Do you remember him? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Yeah, I remember that. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  From Ty Ty, Georgia. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Yeah, I remember it. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Vandiver won that race, you know, in a landslide, and he got to be Governor.  But he faced, Senator, some of the biggest problems that any Governor has had in Georgia for a long, long time.  He had a situation at the University of Georgia.   \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Integrating the University. That was a  that was a tough decision for him and the General Assembly to make.  And you were there.  Do you remember those days? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Yeah, I do.  I think I had stated before, there were three governors, there was Vandiver, and there was Maddox, and there was Griffin.  There were some of them that really didnt believe in the  integrating the schools because they were just reared that way.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And, of course, you cant fight the courts.  When the Supreme Court rules -- or the high courts -- theres nothing you can do about that.  So Vandiver had -- I think you remember when he ran for office, he said  talking about integration, he said, \"No, not one.\" \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  That was a famous statement he made.  He would -- not one would integrate, but he had to apologize for that statement and back off of it, and abide by the law, which -- that was all you could do.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And finally there were several entered the University of Georgia, and -- \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  -- Have been many, many more since that time. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Then the Supreme Court says that our county unit system was unconstitutional. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  That created some problems. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Right.  Well there  that was during the Vandiver administration, too.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Right. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And, of course, there again, the high court ruled that you had to hold elections by population -- \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  -- instead of by county unit systems. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  In the past, and Im sure you remember, Fulton -- Fulton had a certain amount three year  I believe three representatives. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Right.  Six units.   \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And a little county like mine had one.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And two units.  \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And one like Laurens up here had two, and that  they had them rationed out, Ill use that word, according to the population. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  The larger counties had more representation but not near what they would have if it had been on population basis.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  So the court ruled that you had to go by population basis.  And since that time, its been a  a different story in electing Governors.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm \r\n \r\nGILLIS:   And State officials. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Right after that then the court ruled that we had to reapportion our congressional and legislative districts in the State. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And that was another problem that Governor Vandiver had that he, I think, handed off to Carl Sanders, who had already been nominated Governor. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT: -- And Governor Sanders took over that reapportion.  But that reapportionment affected you and your district, didnt it? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Yeah, it sure did.  I had normally been representing about four counties, and when they reapportioned like that, I had six.  And at one time later on, they  you know, the law says you had to reapportion every ten years. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And later on, when we reapportioned again, of course, the committees of the House and the committees of the Senate did it, and here you had to be within one or two percent of the population of the counties.  So, in order to do that, you had to split counties.  And at one time I think I had maybe seven counties and portions of four.  It made a world of difference in how you  how you operated. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  How did you pass local bills back then? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Well, there was no problem in that.  If I had a local bill and introduced it, or any other senator or representative, I think the majority of the House and Senate would join in with him.  In other words, if  if I wanted to represent Emanuel County in my district, and I introduced a local bill for Emanuel County, all I had to do was tell the rest of my cohorts that this was one of my district  a county in one  of my districts, and the majority of the people would support it.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Lets talk for a minute about the Senate of 1963.   \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Let me add one more thing about Ernest Vandiver.  I think hes the one that built the archives building for Georgia.  A 17-story building I believe, and we had records  state records scattered all over and around the capitol.  Some in the capitol and some in various departments and if you wanted to check on a certain item, sometimes you had a problem finding the records on it, but after the archive building was built, then all of them accumulated and assembled in that one building.  So you could go back to the archive building and look up any historical item you wanted to check on. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  But that was a great thing for Ernest Vandiver to do.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  The Senate of 63.  You were there.  A great group of people.  You were there.  President Carter was there.  J.B. Fuqua was there.  Zell Miller was there.  Quite a gathering of State senators.  Do you remember much about those days?   \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Is that when Sanders was Governor? \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm.  His first -- \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Yeah, I sure do.  Carl Sanders and Betty, his wife, and my wife and family, we were all close friends and we took a lot of trips together, and J.B. Fuqua was real close to Carl Sanders and we were close to them.  So we had a  they used to visit with me.  I had a  built a home down at Jekyll Island after we bought  M.E. Thompson bought Jekyll Island, which everybody said since then was the best buy the State of Georgia ever made.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  But anyhow, I built the first house down there.  Other than what the Yankees already had down there  the northern people, and Carl and J.B. and their wives would visit with me a lot down there.  And we took several trips around the country together.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Carl did a great job as  as Governor. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And, in fact, some people say he was the first Governor of the New South. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And I guess he had enough funds in the budget to do a lot of things the other Governors couldnt do. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  His Lieutenant Governor was, Peter Zack Geer, who history, unfortunately, has sort of passed by.  You knew Peter Zack very well.  Tell us a little bit about him. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Peter Zack was a great Lieutenant Governor, and one of the best presiding officers that I ever served under.  In fact, I believe, and Ive heard a lot of other people say he was the best presiding officer to ever hit that capital.  He knew the rulebook from top to bottom, and he didnt have to look up a rule.  And he presided over several joint sessions of the Legislature, and did an outstanding job.  In fact, he was presiding when we had the three-governor row.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And we  I had a lot of respect for him, and I was hoping he might get elected Governor, but for some reason or other, he couldnt get his campaign going right, and was defeated. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  But he was a good friend of mine.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You have served under thirteen Governors.  \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Fourteen now.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Fourteen. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  I told you the other day thirteen, but I wasnt thinking about it -- our present Governor. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  I hadnt counted.  I counted the ones on the book.  Yeah.  But it didnt list the present Governor. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yeah.  Yeah.  Lets talk for a minute about some of them.   \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  All right, sir. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Of course, Gene Talmadge was Governor when you went --  \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  --To the Legislature in 1941.  He was succeeded by Ellis Arnall.  Weve talked a little bit about him.   \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Arnall was actually succeeded by Melvin Thompson.   \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  We talked about that. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Then after Thompson, there was Talmadge.  \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Was who? \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Talmadge.  In 1948 Talmadge defeated Melvin Thompson for Governor. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And then was elected to a full four year term, so he was there six years. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And weve talked about Talmadge.  Then there was Griffin, we mentioned him.  Then there was Vandiver, we mentioned him.  Then Sanders.  And then it comes up to 1946, when we had another Governor misunderstanding when Lester Maddox got the Democratic nomination.  Bo Calloway was the Republican candidate.  We had an election.  Nobody won.  It went to court.  It came back to the Legislature, and the Legislature elected the Governor -- Lester Maddox.  Do you remember that debate?  \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  I sure do.  Lester Maddox is the only Governor weve had that never had much education.  I dont think he ever went past 8th or 10th grade, or somewhere along that, but he worked all his life.  In fact, he had to, I think, to help support his family, and as far as I know, Lester Maddox was honest and if he ever mistreated -- I don't want to say mistreated -- if he ever tried to take something that wasnt his --  after he got in the State government, he never tried to move anything that would benefit himself.  He ran the State of Georgia for the people of the State of Georgia.  In fact, he created Peoples Day in the Capitol, and every Friday afternoon, and -- they would  when the legislature wasnt in session probably all day Friday.  But anyway, he would listen to the public.  Anybody could come and talk to him, and he had his department handy where they could  hed turn them over to them if they had a problem that the department head could solve, and he did everything he could to try to represent the people of Georgia.  And another thing he did was appoint people to office that he thought would do the best job regardless of whether they supported him or not.  He was one of the few Governors that did that, so I enjoyed serving with Lester.   \r\nI was president pro-tem while he was Governor.  And Ill tell you something else, he was always on time.  And when the time came for the gavel to fall, he was there, except one morning, and we kept waiting around then and waiting and finally he never did come, and I said, Well, I being pro-tem, Ill go up there and get the preliminaries over with.\"  Roll call, committee reports and various things you have to do before you go into passing legislation, and I did.  And finally he came in and he eased in back of me and sat down, and I thought hed been sick.  And finally I got a chance to turn around from the podium and talk to him.  I said, Governor, you been sick?  He said, No.  The house passed a bill for a two cent sales tax in Atlanta, and I stayed up all night, nearly, figuring on that, and thats  that was twice more than they need, and I went by the Mayors office and talked to him about it, and he agreed with me, that it was twice more than they needed.  So, when the bill comes over here at the House, I mean Senate, were going to amend it to 1%.  So we did, and sent it back to the House, and they agreed with us.  But he saved, right then, the people of Georgia in Atlanta -- well a lot of people in Georgia shop there -- millions of dollars, and not one word Ive ever seen in the newspaper about it to give him credit for it.  But I know personally hes the one that did it. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm.  A lot of people were apprehensive about Maddox when he was elected, but he turned out  he fooled them.   \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  He sure did.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  He fooled them.  He made a good Governor.   \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  I never saw a man in my life love his wife any more than he did.  He would write me a letter and the first or second paragraph hed say something about his dear wife, Virginia, and how much he loved her.  And hes one of the few that left office, as far as I know, broke. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  He had a lot of family trouble with his children and one thing and another, and he had some health problems.  And I also dont believe he ever took in any extra money that people offered him much.  So when he left office, I think he was broke.  In fact, the other Governors, Carl Sanders and different Governors got together and George Busbee and Barnes and they all raised a bunch of money to give to him to help pay him out of debt.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  1966, during that period when we had no Governor-elect, the state legislature decided it was going to become independent.  And, led by speaker George L. Smith, they  they did that.  But as I have observed the General Assembly over the years, I found  I found the Senate to always be independent. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  [Laughs].  Well, most of the time they were, Id have to admit.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yeah.  Now, you served on a number of committees in the Senate:  Natural Resources, Appropriations, and all of the key big committees, which one was your favorite? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Well, I was chairman of the Natural Resources and Environmental Quality for 24 years.  And, of course, that included Forestry, which we are really interested in personally in our area, and as far as that goes statewide, its one of the biggest industries we have in the State of Georgia.  And the environment, and you see something in the paper everyday about the environment nearly, and something  you have to have rules and regulations to control.  And a lot of those things came up before my committee and we had study committees to look into it and people would recommend what we ought to do and we came up with legislation that tried to solve a lot of those problems.  And I enjoyed that.  If you asked me which committee I enjoyed the most, that was it.  Now, as far as getting something done is concerned, I was chairman of the Appropriations Committee for many years, and we -- we did a lot of work in that.  Appropriating funds for -- as far as that goes, for education, and our colleges and all of our  all of our institutions, and departments.  It was a job; Ill tell you that now.  The chairman of Appropriations Committee is no easy job.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, being a legislator is almost a full time position, isnt it? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Well it is, especially when you represent an area like I have.  I was rather amused, theres one Senator up there never had a town in his district.  Hes out there in the urban area of Atlanta and nothing but residences, and I couldnt hardly believe that, because down here you've got to go to Dublin, you've got to go to the Chamber of Commerce, you've got to go to all these various clubs and this, that, and the other.  Same thing over there in Emanuel.  Same thing in Toombs.  They keep you busy all the time. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm.  Full time. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Yes, sir.  And if you dont go, then theyll say, \"Well, he dont think much about us.\"  Thats a good way to lose elections.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, you never had much serious opposition.  The only time I can recall is in 1972, I believe it was, when you had an opponent. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  A strong opponent that was  that you defeated, but it was, you know, a fairly close election, wasnt it? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  That was when Carter had him  Cecil Passmore running. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Cecil Passmore. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And there was a black fellow in that race too, from  from Dublin.  See, there were two from Lawrence County running, and myself.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And I had the most votes. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Of the three, but I didnt majority, so we had a run off, and the black candidate went with me, and we defeated Mr. Carters candidate.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Why was Mr. Carter interested in having an opponent for you?   \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Well, I don't know.  I told you earlier a story, which I wont quote any more about it, but that was one of the reasons, I guess-- because we didnt support him.  My father didnt support him, and, of course, I never went against my father in politics.  So Carter knew I didnt vote for him and he didnt  he didnt have to do me a lot of favors, but I was not going to sit up there and see him abolish the Forestry Department, one of the best departments we had in Georgia and  and harm our Natural Resources Department.  I didnt want to do that.  So, that was the main disagreement we had. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Otherwise you got along fine? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Oh yeah. Yeah, if I were to see him right now, hed come up and hug me.  Glad to see me and so forth, you know.  I got nothing against him personally.  His wife is a good lady.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Lets talk for a minute about reorganization under Governor Carter.  His reorganization plan met with some pretty strong opposition in the Senate headed by the Lieutenant Governor, Lester Maddox, and they had quite a battle back and forth over that  over the reorganization plan.  What really were they fighting about? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Well, Bob, you asked me something now, and I cant give you an exact answer on it.  But the main thing in my opinion was that it was cutting out a lot of the Senators districts, taking away a lot of their leading candidates and given them to somebody else.  It was not a map that we agreed with at all. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  So that  and, of course, Lester  Governor Maddox, went along with the leadership in the Senate on it. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm.  Well we talked about the Governors you've served with.  Lets talk for a minute about some of the Lieutenant Governors.  We mentioned Peter Zack, Garland Byrd was one. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Garland did a good job.  He was a good presiding officer and as far as I know, we had no problems in the Senate as long as Garland was our presiding officer.  I enjoyed working with him.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And he once decided to run for Governor, but withdrew-- \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  --The year that Carl Sanders was elected.   \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Now lets talk about a fellow who was Lieutenant Governor of Georgia for sixteen years.  That's a long time. \r\n \r\n \r\nGILLIS: [Laughs] \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Of course, thats Zell Miller. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Ol' Zell Miller. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Zell Miller \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Yes, sir. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You and Zell were friends. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Yes, sir.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Tell me about him. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Well, Zell was -- as you know, was an educator.  He was born and reared at Young Harris and his father taught school at Young Harris College.  And after Zell got out of college, he went into the Marines, and he came back out of the Marines and I never will forget him.  He ran for the Senate and got elected and when he came over to the Senate, he had a little  he still had a little Marine crew cut, just like he had in the Marines.  And he retired out of the Marines as a sergeant, and you know he had to be tough -- \r\n \r\nSHORT:  [Laughs] \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  -- Back then to be a sergeant, especially in the Marines, because they were  they were some kind of organization.  And Zell really, I thought, after he served in the Senate, he learned all about State Government and so forth and he knew what he wanted to do, and he was a strong  promoter of education and -- \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  He, every move he made, it was, in my opinion, for the betterment of the state government of Georgia.  He made an outstanding Lieutenant Governor and Governor. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm.  That was a period of time when there was a lot of battle between Speaker Murphy and Miller over issues.  Do you remember any of those? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Well, to begin with, they cooperated and worked together.  But for some reason or other, later on during the years they got  had problems with one  some legislation, and, of course, Murphy didnt take no for an  maybe for an answer.  He had a yes or a no, and hed tell you right quick what he thought about you.  So I imagine he told Zell what he thought about him and then wound up their friendship.  But, Zell didnt back up.  He held his ground, too.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And after awhile there they would compromise and come together and solve the problem.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, tell me if this is not true.  Legislative politics is different from other politics in that your success in legislating law is coalition building  putting people together.  One day your  your opponent on a piece of legislation might be your biggest ally the next day.  Isnt that true?  Dont you find that true? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Thats true.  And that was  that was  if you want to know my  my main asset in the Senate was getting a coalition of friends.  And most of the time I could go around on one side and see two or three at once  my close friends, and they would spread the word and go on the other side, the same way, and they would spread the word, and we had a  we stayed together.  And for instance, I never will forget  you remember Hodge Timmons? \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Hodge Timmons, oh yes. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Was in the Senate and our formal Lieutenant Governor from Albany --   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mark Taylor \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  -- Mark Taylor came up there into the Senate and he was sitting by Hodge on the opposite side of the Senate from me, and he turned to Hodge and he said, Hodge, how do you know how to vote on all these bills?  They all of them different, or something, different things, different times, different this.  He said, Senator, aint no problem at all.  He said, You see that bald headed man sitting right over there on the other side?\" \r\n \r\nSHORT:  [Laughs] \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  He said, Yeah, he said, when he holds up his hand, you hold up your hand.  [Laughs] \r\n \r\nSHORT:  [Laughs].  Well, thats good advice.  Now, lets talk for a minute about some more Governors.  Joe Frank Harris was in the Legislature for many years as chairman of the Appropriations Committee.  Were you  were you chairman of the Senate Committee at the same time? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Thats right.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You all got along pretty well together? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Real good. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  What do you think of Joe Frank as a Governor? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Joe Frank was  and his wife  were the most religious people that ever came to the Legislature, in my opinion.  For instance, before he was sworn in as Governor, he had a service over at the Methodist Church an hour prior to his being sworn in.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And he never, in my opinion -- I never heard him use a bad word in my life, and he always considered doing the right thing.  He was a topnotch governor. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And as far as I know, he hadnt had a problem, but he was  he and his wife were good people. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  His opponent in the Democratic primary was a gentleman from near here, Bo Ginn, who is a former congressman.  \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And he was a very strong opponent.  And Joe Frank managed to win that and most people think it was because he went on the air in a statewide radio broadcast promising no new taxes.  Now that was years ago, but I think thats a pretty good campaign slogan, dont you? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  No doubt about it.  No doubt about it.  In fact thats about the best way I know of to get beat is to campaign around and tell them you are going to raise the taxes. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yeah.  And then there was Roy Barnes, who I guess served with you in the Senate. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Oh, yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And he was elected Governor.  How was he? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Roy was a good Senator, and did a good job representing his district and I thought did a good job as Governor, but he didnt serve but one term, and that was it.  He was a friend of mine and I got along with him real good.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Also, another one of your fellow Senators is Sonny Purdue, who was elected Governor -- who defeated Barnes. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Right.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Purdue was President Pro-Tem of the Senate. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  As a Democrat. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And then he switched parties. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  What did you think of that? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  I didnt criticize him any, because at that particular time I was  I would vote with the Republicans occasionally.  Their floor leader would come around and ask me to vote with them.  If it was a good bill, Id vote with them, I mean, but we had a lot of Democrats that just voted right down the line against everything that Republicans proposed.  Well, sometimes they had good bills.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And for instance, one time Sonny had a bill that was a good bill and the Democrats wanted me to propose the bill because it was a good bill, and it was Sonnys bill. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  So, I couldnt turn them down, but what I did, I went around and told Sonny.  I said, Sonny, Im going to have to present your bill, but you can follow me and you come up there and give me hell and you can give the ones that set up the agenda for the day all the trouble you want to.  But I said, \"It wasnt any of my business.  Im going to present the bill and its going to pass.\" \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Because its a good bill.  And you can follow me and what I dont talk about the bill, you can finish telling and then, like I say, you can give us trouble about it if you want to.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  But so Sonny did.  He followed me and he told them what all was in the bill and then he lit in on the leadership, and when he got through, Mark Taylor said, \"Cry me a river.\"   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Oh, that famous statement? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Came back to haunt him.   \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Yeah.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Weve talked about Governors.  We talked about Lieutenant Governors, and now with your permission, Id like to talk about some other famous Georgia characters who served in the legislature, like Culver Kidd. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Culver was a character, Im telling you.  I enjoyed serving with him, but you never knew what he was going to do.  He would  might tell you something one time and do the other, but he wasnt  he wasnt doing it just for the fun of it.  He was doing it for just  just didnt, you couldnt place him a lot of times.  But he really enjoyed his service in the Legislature.  And he did a good job, Ill have to say, for Baldwin County and Milledgeville and the state facilities, and he was always supporting them.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Now, Senator, Id like to ask you about Leroy Johnson.   \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Leroy.  Well, he was a good friend of mine.  He sure was.  And we worked together.  I might tell you this story.  I might not need to repeat it, but anyway, he -- the press found out about Leroy and me were good friends, and they wanted a picture of Leroy and me shaking hands.  Leroy had some special bill.  I don't know what it was, but I told him Id help him with it.  So that morning I came in to sit down at my desk and there was this photographer right in front of me on the floor with his camera trained right on me -- on my desk.  So, Nathan Dean was sitting by me and I said, Nathan, go back there and tell Leroy, if he wants to see me, I'll meet him in the bathroom, so  and not come down here.  So he sat there the whole session and, of course, Leroy never came.  [Laughs] \r\n \r\nSHORT:  [Laughs] \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And after the session, this photographer came over to me.  He said, Senator, I want to get a picture of you shaking hands with Senator Johnson.  Would you come back in the back and shake hands with him?  And I said, No.  Is said, You been sitting there all the morning trying to get that picture.  You aint going to get it now, either.  See, they wanted to put a big story in the paper about that, and I dont know what they were going to say about it.  You never know and all. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  I just told Leroy Id help him with his bill, whatever it was.  I went over to the  to the baseball game what afternoon, and had a ticket on this back of the third base line, and I was going down the hole on the second floor of the  wherever its booths are -- going to my seat, and ran into Leroy.  That was after he got out of the Senate.  You know, he was manager of that stadium and, \"Hey, Senator, where you going?\"  I said, \"Im going to my seat down here back of the third base.\"  He said, No youre not.  You're going to sit in my box right down here in the third door on the left.  And any time you come over here in a ball game, dont you get a seat, you come to my box.  You can sit there anytime you want to.  Of course, I didnt go back to any ball games much, I dont think.  But anyway, I sat there and enjoyed the ball game, but he was a fellow, if you did him a favor, hed do you a favor.  I mean, hes just that kind of fellow.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And I think the people in his district liked him, as far as I know.  \r\n  \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm.  Yeah, he was reelected.  He ran for mayor of Atlanta though and was defeated. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Well, thats a different deal.  The whole city of Atlanta.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Thats true.  Thats true.  Tell me about Bobby Rowan. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Bobby was a good, close friend of mine.  We always worked together.  He and Frank Harris and -- he was, of course -- served in the Senate, you know, several years, and then was a lobbyist, and I guess still is. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  As far as I know. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, he also was elected to the Public Service Commission. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Right.  Public Service Commissioner.  If I wanted  happened to want something or I wanted to find out something through that organization, all I had to do was call Bobby.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  So, he was like Leroy.  Hed return a favor.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm.  Are there any other Senators you served with that you would like to talk about? \r\n \r\nGILLIS: Well, I had a lot of good friends in the  in the Senate, and they were good people.  Nathan Dean, for instance, sat right by me and Ronnie Bowen, and they were all good people and did a good job representing their district.  Al Holloway was a good  we already mentioned him -- was a good friend, a good Senator.  I could name a lot of them, but I always got along real good in the Senate with  had no problems in particular.    \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  I dont think I ever lost a bill.  Never lost one.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Thats another record that will never be broken.  Well, come to think of it, we hadnt mentioned that you served 55 years and 7 months.  How did it come out for the 7 months there. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Well, thats easy to explain, we talked about reapportionment before and the last time we reapportioned was 205  204 and I was in the Senate and Senator Williams down here, a Republican from Lyons, Georgia, was sort of  he drew up the map for the Republicans, and there again, he was a good friend of mine.  And he came over and asked me how I wanted my district drawn, and I told him, and we made some changes and some  some he couldnt make.  But anyhow, he drew up a map that was real good as far as I was concerned, and it passed the Senate by a big majority.  And we sent it over to the House and they never would even take it up.    \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Never would, and they never would send us a map to vote on, so there was nothing could be done except turn it over to the courts.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And they said if we didnt do it by a certain day, then they were going to do it.  And that day came and they took it over.  And taking it over, they did not want any advice from any of us.  They were going to do the reapportion.  And it wasnt any use for me to go tell them how that I wanted my district or how to do it, so I never got  never had any communication with them whatsoever and I don't know if some of them  some people might, but I don't know who it was.  But they drew completely new districts -- district lines.  Put me in the district with Senator Hill. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  A good friend of mine from down at Reedsville.  And he was chairman of the Appropriations Committee and always helped me with appropriations and while I was  we were in there together.  In fact, I served with his daddy.  I don't know whether you ever knew him or not.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Wilton. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  He later became head of the school drivers association.  School Bus Drivers.  And we were good friends.  He sat by me.  So I had no intention of running against Jack Hill, and happened to run into the Governor down here in Vidalia at a meeting, and he said, \"Hugh, I want to talk to you.\"  And I said, \"All right.  Come on and ride back.\"  He was going to Dublin to another meeting.  \"Come on and ride with us in the van and Ill talk to you on the way up there.\"  So, I got on the van with him and Senator Hill and Senator from down there at Lyons, and two or three representatives were already in the van.  And he started up the conversation before we got back to Soperton and wanted to know how wed like to serve on the Ports Authority. \r\nI said, \"Well, Governor.  I've got no intention of running for the Senate anymore.  I served my time and Im in a new district and I certainly dont want to run against Senator Hill.\"  He said, \"Well how about me appointing you on the Ports Authority?\"  I said, \"Well, that would be great.  I think its a great organization and doing an outstanding job and I think I would enjoy that.\"  He said, \"Well this  thats how the seven months comes in, see?\" \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  He said, \"Well, Ill go back and appoint you now.\"  I said, \"No.  I want to go to the last national convention, which is going to be the last of June, and out in Salt Lake City.\" \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  \"And soon as I come back from Salt Lake City, Ill come down to your office and you can swear me in.\"  And he said, \"Well, thatll be fine.\"  So thats the way it came in. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Thats the seven months. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  See, the legislation was over.  Wasnt anything else I could do for my constituents particularly except make calls, and I still do that. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  They call me quite often right now and want me to  in fact, I had a fellow stop me out at Meiers today. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Wanting me to call the university over at Augusta and one at Mercer to try to get one of his friends in the med school, so you dont ever get over it.  You have to  theyll call you right on. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, weve talked about politics for a long time.  Now, lets talk about Hugh Gillis.   \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  [Laughs] \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You were born right here in Soperton. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Thats a bad subject. [Laughs] \r\n \r\nSHORT:  That's a great subject. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You were born right here in Soperton? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Out here in the country, oh, four miles from Soperton. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Grew up here.  What was it like then? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Well, it was an entirely -- like I said, different situation.  I told you, we had no paved roads.  Id seen cars bogged down in on the street in Soperton.  And I came up -- we were on the farm and I came up, what you call  might call the hard way of farming.  I plowed a lot of mules.  I used to come to town when I  before I could even plow and bring  Id pull up peanuts on Friday, pick them all Friday afternoon and have them boiled Saturday morning and bring them to town on a bale of cotton.  Ride on top of a bale of cotton on the wagon and come up to town here and sell them on the street, and if I  nickel a bag, and if I made me $2.00 or a $1.50, I was rich.   \r\nAnd then -- was farming right on, and on Saturdays, my uncle, Jim Peterson, owned a grocery store and dry goods store combined.  Dry goods on one side and grocery on the other.  And I worked in the grocery store on Saturdays and started in the morning, early Saturday morning, and back then, everybody came to town on Saturday.  Had nothing else to do.  So the streets would be crowded with people walking up and down the streets and theyd come to town on their wagons and shop, and by 10:00 wed close Saturday night.  Then we had to sweep the sidewalks, and clean out the store.  Id get home about 11:00 on Saturday night.  When I went off to college, I had money in the bank that I had made the so-called hard way working on the farm and in the grocery stores and Id also load up my pony and little wagon I had with watermelons or cantaloupes, or whatever we had out there and bring them to town, peddle them out, 15 cents, quarter a piece, whatever.  I came up working and trying to make some  enough funds to go to college on.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  So you went over to the University of Georgia.   \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Well, I went to GMC first. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  GMC? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Yeah.  I graduated from Truetlen High School, here.  Eleventh grade, and then I went on to twelfth grade back then.  Went on to GMC for one year. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Uh-huh. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And Georgia three years.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And majored in agriculture? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Majored in agriculture and came back home and went to farming.  Then went to politicking. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Politics.  Did you join your familys business back then, or do  did you start on your own? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  I joined the family business.  I was working for daddy the whole time. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Uh-huh.  Yeah.  Well, tell us a little bit about your  your company, Gillis Ag and Timber.  \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Well, its originally from my business here, I could say when I was farming with mules, and then I brought the first tractors into the county to farm with.  Some people said you couldnt plow with them, but we did, and we showed people we could.  And I set up a John Deere agency here and then I had a Pontiac agency for about ten years, and that was Gillis Brothers.  That was my brother and me, but he had nothing to do with it.  I ran it all.  In fact, he didnt ever come over here hardly.  And then that Gillis Brothers, Union Camp started in  really in the pulpwood business in Savannah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And I had a dealer here in Soperton, Jimmy Lawton.  And Jimmy passed away and his wife took it over, and she  she did not  didnt want  didnt operate it and the Union Camp crowd wanted me to take it over, which I did, and thats where Gillis Ag and Timber came in.  We had agriculture, with tractors and so forth, and what we did was have pulpwood operators bringing in pulpwood up here into a pulpwood yard on the railroad. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And we would ship it by the car  car load -- open car, you know. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  To Savannah.  And that was Gillis Ag and Timber. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And that's the way that started. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And youve been operating it all these years? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  I did until I  when I went to the Legislature and my son, Hugh, got out of university he had always farmed with us and worked with us, and anything I was doing he was doing and so forth.  He knew everything that I did so I turned it over to him.  And then he has a son named Ben, and Ben is in there now, I think.  He and Ben operate Gillis Ag and Timber. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  They work with International Paper.  You know, I think I told you before.  Union Camp sold out to International. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And they didnt  they didnt want to do all the office work and they  you have to supervise these loggers, because theres certain rules and regulations and --  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  --If you dont abide them, theyll take you  take your license away from you.  So we have to  we have to supervise and see that everything is done according to the rules. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Do you saw your own timber or do you buy it? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Both.  Both.  We have about 8 timber cruisers and they go out and cruise timber and different companies will bid on it and if were the low bidder  the high bidder, then we move  we move one of our loggers on it. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  We have one of our own personal logging operations called Soaps and Naval Store.  Thats what the name of our turpentine company was that we had.  The Chinese put us out of business as far as making rosin and turpentine. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Theres no more of that going on.   Langleys, you know was the largest in the country. We were probably second, but theres not going on at the present time.  So, we still have a logging operation of our own, and we call it Soaps and Naval Stores and some of our farming operation is still operating under that name. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm.  So you have a son, Hugh, Jr.  You have another son and a daughter. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Yes, sir.  I have a son that was recently sworn in as a Superior Court Judge.  He was a state court judge this county and Governor Purdue swore him in about, oh, four or five months ago as a Superior Court Judge. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And my daughter married down in Adel, Georgia.  Married E. J. Harris.  E.J. Harris.  Hes with the Vo-Tech schools. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  In fact, hes a supervisor.  Hes been operating one at  for a while now at Valdosta, and not they got him sort of moving from one  about three different ones, sort of supervising and operating.  And Jean Marie, my daughter, is teaching kindergarten.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And shes been teaching now almost 20 years. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm.  I want you to think about this, Senator.  If you had your career to do over again, would you do anything differently? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  I dont believe so.  I dont know what else Id like to do.  Like I say, I was born and reared here and if Id have picked another vocation, Id have probably had to leave this country, go to Atlanta or some other state.  Ive always been happy living right here and socializing with people in our territory. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  So you never thought about running for a State office? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  No, sir.  Theres a lot of people that asked me about running for Congress and I told them I wouldnt run  wouldnt run  I wouldnt go to Washington if they gave me the Capitol up there. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Okay.   \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  I just never had a desire to do that.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, you are certainly an icon in Georgia politics and -- \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Well, Ive enjoyed it and I give my family credit for it.  I couldnt have done it, you know, without my daddy.  He was always a good advisor, and knew a lot of people in the area, district, and, of course my  when we had a campaign, my wife, Jean, she always organized a group of ladies and they  they went from town to town giving out cards and my daughter, Jean Marie, belonged to a group called the Gillis Girls and they were about ten or twelve years old and they came  theyd go into a town like Mt. Vernon down here. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And had on little Gillis Girl hats and little jackets and a handful of cards and they go in every store and give out my cards and ask them all  everybody they give a card to, ask them to vote for me.  So Id have to give me family a lot of credit for my success. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  What was your proudest moment? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Proudest moment?  I guess that the termination of some of these elections.  I dont know.  I wouldnt pick a certain one, but going back that way, lets see  the birth of some of my children, would certainly, certainly be among the tops. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And my marriage to  I had a great marriage to Jean.  We lived together about 40 years.  Had a lot of good times together and now, I  after she passed away I married Montez Champion, and she was working in Atlanta at the Radisson Hotel up there and we met and became friends and we been married 7 years now and we get  had a lot of good experiences together.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Has anything ever disappointed you? \r\n \r\nGILLIS: Well, thats a good question, Bob.  I guess I would have to say that when the election we were talking about when Jimmy Carter was Governor and I had a run off, that was  it was disappointing to have to have  to be involved in a run off.    \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  All the rest of them I won on the first ballot. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm.  One last question. \r\n \r\nHUGH GILLIS:  Yes, sir. \r\nSHORT:  What advice would you give a young political hopeful, who wants to become a public official? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Well, and the main thing he has to do is meet the people, and when I say meet the people, you cant  you cant tell a fellow, no Im not going to do this.  Or I guess it cant be done.  You always got to tell them youll help them if you can.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  And do it if you can.  Thats another thing.  A lot of times, in fact, I had a fellow out at my house yesterday checking on a problem out there and I never  I hadnt seen him in 15 or 20 years and he said, \"You got me a job one time.\"  I dont remember it, but I guess that I might have, but you cant  you cant turn people down, and you got to get out and work at it.  You cant just announce for office and stay at  stay put.  You've got to get involved. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, I said final question, but I have one more. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Yes, sir? \r\n \r\nSHORT:  How would you like to be remembered? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Hmm.  As a good  good public servant.  Good public servant.  And as an honest public servant.  I don't know of any other way to describe it.  I certainly wouldnt want to be remembered any other way as a bad  as a dishonest or a bad person. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, youve certainly been a good public servant, and we thank you for sharing some of your experiences with us here today.   \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Well, Ive enjoyed it and I appreciate you all coming down and, if you need any other information that I can supply or give, Ill be glad to do it.  Like I told you  told you earlier, though, and I dont mind repeating it, Im 89, be 90 in about September the sixth. Your memory is not as good now as it used to be.    \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  So, Ive tried to answer your questions and some times maybe in a round about way, but it was because I couldnt remember something, but -- \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, you did great, and we appreciate it. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Well, we try.  Lets put it that way.  Thats another thing.  You cant  cant do, I cant say no.  You have to try as hard as you can. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Would you talk a little bit about political parties? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Well, I think I stated before that while I was in the Senate, I voted with the Republicans occasionally because if they had a good bill, I saw no reason why not to vote for it.  No reason to sit there and just vote no, when you know its  youre not going to accomplish anything.  Its going to pass anyhow, so Im  I dont understand enough about this present national election to give you an honest opinion on it.  I don't know  I never heard of Obama until he announced, you know, a while back. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  I dont  Im not a  born and reared a Democrat, and I guess Ill Democrat, but if  if I think a Republican is a better candidate, Im going to vote for a Republican. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Senator, some disenchanted Democrats in Georgia think the state party is controlled too much by minorities and labor unions at the expense of the rural old-line Democrats.  Do you think thats true? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Well, they have a lot of influence.  Theres no doubt about that.  But I know whether they control it.  Theres more people outside of those two groups than there is in it, so they couldnt control it all, but they are involved politically in a lot of races, but Im  there again, I dont think they control them. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Do you see a bright path for Democrats in the future, or do you think our state still is going to be Republican? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  I dont necessarily see it.  I think if a good Democrat got out and campaigned enough and met enough people, hed get reelected  get elected.  Same way with a Republican.  If he got  gets out here and out does the other fellow, hes going to get elected.  People are not as much party concerned now as they used to be.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Way back yonder it was  and you and me have talked about it earlier  it was a flat Democrat deal in Georgia.  If you were a Republican, you were on the outside looking in.  But its not that way anymore, so -- \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm.  Some states require registration by party.   \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Do you  do you support that?   \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  No.  Not necessarily.  And if I did  if a Democrat  there again I dont think that means you would have to vote flat straight Republican ticket.  No I wouldnt support it if I had to just vote a ticket without concern for the other side. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  I like to look  look at the candidate.  There're a lot of candidates in both organizations that are good people.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm.  Well it seems the trend is that way.  That independents who are not devoted particularly to either party seem to be the -- seem to elect the candidates.  They look at  they look at the Republican; they look at the Democrat in the general election and they vote independently.   \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  But do you think that theres a place for a third party in Georgia? \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  I dont think so.  If they did, theyd have a lot of work to do to ever succeed.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  I think that the trend in Georgia right now is for people to vote for the candidate regardless of what he is, even though he might be an independent.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hmm.  Okay.  Good.  Okay, Senator, I thank you very much. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  Well, I appreciate you all coming down, and I didnt  dont know whether I -- \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You did good. \r\n \r\nGILLIS:  -- Gave you the right information or not. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You did good. \r\n \r\n[END OF RECORDING] \r\n \r\n       "},{"id":"gych_rogp_036","title":"Chip Carter, III, 23 June 2008.","collection_id":"gych_rogp","collection_title":"Reflections on Georgia Politics oral history collection, 2006-2010","dcterms_contributor":["Short, Bob, 1932-"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, 39.76, -98.5","United States, Georgia, 32.75042, -83.50018"],"dcterms_creator":["Carter, James Earl, 1950","Short, Bob, 1932"],"dc_date":["2008-06-23"],"dcterms_description":["Carter discusses growing up in the tight-knit community of Plains, Georgia, observing his father's protestations of racism, and his memories of his father's family including siblings Ruth, Walter, and Gloria. He further talks about his personal and political relationship with his father, including Chip's assistance in his father's campaigns for 14th Congressional District, the multiple Gubernatorial campaigns, and the campaign for President. Carter speaks of the integration of his high school, Plains High School, which occurred without violence. He attributes this, in part, due to his father's influence in the community, including teaching Sunday school for many years. Other topics include Presidential campaign strategy during his father's 1976 campaign. Carter lists his father's supporters in Washington, D.C. such as Hamilton Jordan, Bob Strauss, Bert Lance, Jack Watson, Charlie Kirbo, David Gambrell, and (questionably) Griffin Bell. He speaks of how the Iran hostage crisis influenced his father's career. Carter also discusses the ease of dating in the White House, his relationship with Secret Service agents, and his time working for the Carter Center in Sudan.","James Earl \"Chip\" Carter III was born in Honolulu, Hawaii, on April 12, 1950. He was raised in Plains, Georgia, and is the son of President Jimmy Carter. He was active in his father's peanut business and political campaigns, and was a member of the Plains City Council and the Democratic National Committee. In 2000, Carter became president of Friendship Force, an international exchange program founded by the Carters in 1977.","Finding aid available in repository.","Interviewed by Bob Short."],"dc_format":["video/mp4"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection","http://sclfind.libs.uga.edu/sclfind/view?docId=ead/RBRL220ROGP.xml"],"dcterms_subject":["Emory University--Carter Center","Presidents--United States--Family","Political campaigns--Georgia","Political campaigns--United States","School integration--Georgia--Plains","Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981","Secret service--United States","Families","Political campaigns","Presidents--Family","School integration","Secret service","Plains (Ga.)--History","Georgia","Georgia--Plains","United States"],"dcterms_title":["Chip Carter, III, 23 June 2008."],"dcterms_type":["MovingImage"],"dcterms_provenance":["Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-036/ohms"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection, ROGP 036, Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Libraries, Athens, Georgia, 30602-1641."],"dlg_local_right":["Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule."],"dcterms_medium":["oral histories (literary works)","interviews"],"dcterms_extent":["1 interview (109 min.) : sd., col."],"dlg_subject_personal":["Gambrell, David Henry, 1929-","Carter, James Earl, 1950-","Carter, Jimmy, 1924-","Jordan, Hamilton","Lance, Bert, 1931-2013","Bell, Griffin B., 1918-2009"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":"James Earl \"Chip\" Carter III interviewed by Bob Short \r\n2008 June 23 \r\nAthens, GA \r\nReflections on Georgia Politics \r\nROGP-036 \r\nOriginal: video, 110 minutes \r\n \r\nsponsored by: \r\nRichard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies \r\nUniversity of Georgia Libraries \r\nand \r\nYoung Harris College \r\n \r\n \r\nBOB SHORT:  Our guest today is James Earl Carter, III, affectionately known as Chip, son of former Governor and United States President, Jimmy Carter, and former First Lady Rosalynn Carter.  Welcome, Chip, to our program. \r\n \r\nCHIP CARTER:  Thank you.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You know you and I could talk hours about the Carter family and its many accomplishments, but I want to talk to you today about you, Chip Carter.  You were born in Honolulu on April 12th, 1950 and grew up in Plains after your father had left the Navy and gone back to run the peanut business.  Tell us about your family and growing up in Plains. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Well Ill start with birth.  \"Chip\" is Hawaiian for \"baby\" and my blue armband that, when I was born had \"Chip Carter\" written on it which meant \"baby Carter\" and thats how I got the name Chip.   \r\nPlains is an interesting little community.  It was mostly racist, very racist when I grew up.  My dad had a peanut business that afforded us the opportunity to begin work when we were 10 years old.  Riding around the back of a tractor and pick up the ton of a peanut wagon.  The tractor would back up and hed drop the little pin in there and thats how I started off at Carters Warehouse and I worked there constantly until about halfway through college. \r\nPlains was an interesting town in that everybody knew everything that everybody did.  There were no secrets.  It was a great almost inherited ability to live in the Whitehouse because of that because you knew that whatever you did everybody was going to be able to know about it.  You could kiss a girl in Americus, and by the time you got back to Plains everybody in town knew it when I grew up. \r\nThe whites and blacks lived together very peacefully.  My next-door closest neighbor was a black family with two kids my age and we played together after school everyday, Saturday and Sunday and that was the people that I grew up with. And I think everybody in town had a similar perspective on the people that were there.  It was always outside agitators.  Its not ever the ones that actually lived in Plains. \r\nShortly after dad moved home there was a huge movement to keep our schools segregated.  And the White Citizens Council, a group of dads customers, came to him and asked him to join the White Citizens Council.  He refused and they wanted him -- one of the guys said Ill give you the $20.00 to join and dad took the crowd back into the toilet at the Carters Warehouse and flushed $20.00 down the toilet, and we lost 95% of our customers. \r\nI think dads profit the next two years combined was about $460.00.  We lived in public housing at the time and when he first came home. We lived in public housing.  And it was  a real eye opener.  I got beat up everyday at school.  My uncle, my mothers brother, stood on the steps of the school one day and watched as the students tied me upside down from the volleyball net and threw the football at me while I spun around there.  So I was kind of raised in a liberal, I dont think it was liberal because certainly fiscally conservative, but in a non-racist culture mostly because I think of the way my grandmother treated people all of her life and dad kind of picked it up from her. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Thats Ms. Lillian. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Ms. Lillian. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Tell us about Ms. Lillian. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Shes a wonderful lady.  Very stuck in her own mind.  You couldnt change her mind about anything, but she was always right in her own words.  Fairly demanding.  I got a lot of funny stories about it, but I think she kept Amy most of the time when Dad was running for President and she sat in the Depot there and lines of guests came by and she was always very nice.   \r\nWhen dad was elected and took office in 77, that February, the next month, the President of India died, the ceremonial figure, not the Prime Minister.  And my father asked my grandmother Lillian to represent our country there, and asked me, because she had been in the Peace Corps there, and he asked me if I would go as her aid to keep her out of trouble. \r\nSo we went and we did everything politically and protocol wise and we get to the funeral and everything at the funeral is interpreted into English.  The Vice President of the Soviet Union was the first one to speak and my grandmother was supposed to be second, and about halfway through his speech, which was being interpreted, she turned around, I was on the fifth row, she was on the first, and she passed her speech back to me and said \"Theres too many people.  I cant get up and give this.\"  There was 2  million people in the audience in a natural amphitheater, had 2,200 different languages of press there, so it was a huge event.  And so I grabbed this thing scared to death and I start reading and when it starts saying \"When my son was a small boy\" - - oh no.  \r\nSo I get up and I make this speech and since Im speaking English they dont interpret it, but nobody in the audience understands it because of my southern accent and I realize that about a third of the way through so I got real relaxed and I made the rest of the speech. But it was a really funny experience. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Tell me about your other grandparents, the Smiths. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  I never knew my mothers father.  He died when she was 12.  Mother Allie, my mothers mother, raised her.  She was a seamstress for a long time.  She made cakes.  And then she spent 30 years as a part-time employee of the Post Office there in Plains, so she was always there.  Everywhere she went she ran.  Shed get out of the car and run in the store.  If shes going out to pick something out of her yard shed run out and run back.  Not very well educated, but well-read, well loved.  Held her family together very tightly, kids and grandkids.  Then kind of served as a mediator there.   \r\nAfter her husband died she spent her time looking after her children.  Never got remarried.  Never even dated as far as I know about.  Mom s the oldest of four and I think all of them went to college and all of them got a, you know, a good job afterwards and that kind of stuff mostly because Mother Allie just kept pushing and pushing and pushing and making them do it which was almost unusual way back then... \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Now your fathers siblings, Billy and Ruth and Gloria, they were very active in his campaigns. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Yes. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Would you tell us a little bit about his siblings?  Uncle Billy. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Well Uncle Billy was a piece of work.  He drank too much, but he also read a book every single day.  He read five newspapers every single morning and no matter what time any employee got to work, if they could come into the Carters Warehouse and pick up a newspaper and tell him the title of the article and he couldnt give you the details, he would give you $5.00.  And that went on for years and I dont think anybody ever stumped him.  But he didnt drink much beer.  He got up in the morning, he poured the beer down the toilet and filled it up with vodka.  So he walked around with a Billy Beer can of vodka all the time. \r\nReally funny stories, campaigning in Wisconsin one time and he knocked on this womans door and there was a hole in the screen and a cat came out and clawed him, and he kicked like this and the cat went and landed up against a tree and lying there jerking dying.  There was a bunch of press behind us.  This woman came the door and he - - Billy said \"Im Billy Carter, Im Jimmy Carters brother, and Im here campaigning for Mo Udall. Because I dont like my brother.  And heres the cat over there, you know.\" Ive got a film at home of the cat lying there kicking with the - - and Billy saying that to one of the reporters that he gave to me when I came through, but Billy knew his stuff.  He ran the warehouse, did it well.  Extremely intelligent.  Got along with everybody.  He had a problem with alcohol, but his last eight years of life he never drank a drop.   \r\nAll of dads siblings and his mother died of pancreatic cancer, the four of them, and his father in the early 50s died of what they call yellow jaundice which probably was pancreatic cancer.  We assume it was environmental, but were not sure.  Its one of the highest incidences in the world.  The only other one I know of is in Italy where four people have died in the family of pancreatic cancer.  Ive been tested a lot to make sure that its environmental and not something that is heredity.  They want to know if its a heredity streak so they can figure out if they can help other people with it.  So...  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Right. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  ....One of Billys children and me and one of Ruth and Glorias children all go up every five or six years to the National Cancer Institute to be monitored and see whats changed. \r\nRuth was an evangelist.  I used to go out to Tyler, Texas where she had her evangelical camp.  Id spend a week with her every year trying to get my own head straightened out with God.  Other visitors there for two weeks at a time were Billy Graham and Oral Roberts, and all these big evangelists would come out and spend the week with her or two weeks with her.  Cat Stevens was a big - - came out there all the time and he turned into a Muslim and changed his name, came back and she told him God loved him anyway.  But she was wonderful.   \r\nThey were all extremely smart.  Gloria was an accountant and did a lot of that, but she and her husband ended up buying Harley motorcycles.  In 1973 the price of land went way up and they sold all their land, bought two Buick dealerships in Alabama and Harley motorcycles and they rode all over the country on the motorcycles. \r\nDuring the Daytona races, the motorcycle races, my uncle Walter, whos a couple of years older than dad, was the Justice of the Supreme Court of all the biker organizations.  So once a year he held court and he would rectify disputes between the Hells Angels and the Outlaws and all the other bikers.  It would be a court.  He had a gavel and he would sit there and they would come in and present their things and what he said went.  So he solved all their problems once a year.  Kind of a great guy. \r\nWhen Gloria died, the bikers from all over the country drove in and gave her an honor guard as they drove up, put her in the grave and her tombstone reads \"Gloria Spann, she rides in Harley Heaven.\"  Great woman.  She didnt campaign as much as the rest of them.  She did some in Georgia, but Gloria and Billy were on the road quite a lot. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  I had learned that at one time there were 11 Carter relatives in 11 different states. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Yes. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  How did he determine who to send where? \r\n \r\nCARTER:  In May before the campaign, so May of 75, I moved to New Hampshire with my wife and we stayed there quite a lot.  My aunt, dads grandmothers sister Lee and Sissy came and helped us in New Hampshire and they had an event in Maine and she went over there and fell in love with some folks over there, just the people, and ended up pretty much staying in Maine, and I dont know if anybody remembers but Iowa happened and then Maine happened before New Hampshire, and if it hadnt been for winning in Maine, we never would have won in New Hampshire.  So that pretty much goes entirely to Sissy.  I was over there a couple of times.  Aunt Sissy was over there all the time. \r\nGrandmother was always somewhere different.  My mother and dad always traveled separately.  My brother Jack wasnt a very good campaigner so he stayed in Georgia and eventually they let him down to Florida some, but Jack spent a lot of time in Georgia raising money and traveling around this area.   \r\nJeff and his wife moved to New Hampshire early after I did.  Amy was tiny.  I mean she was like eight so she didnt campaign much, but she went out with grandmother some and got some publicity and did some things so I guess you could count her.  We had Alicia, which is Moms sister, was out and her mother was out some, so there was a bunch of us on the road splitting it up. \r\nAnd people dont realize that Iowa wasnt important at that point.  Dads the one that made Iowa important.  He went out and was in all 99 counties.  Ive been in all 99 counties three times.  Because of campaigns Ive been in all 50 states three times.  Ive been in 95 countries in the world after the campaign.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You were always very close to your dad, werent you? \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Yeah.  I mean, you know, you have problems with your parents like everybody does, but yeah I think were certainly politically very close and Ive given an awful lot of my life to him and hes, you know, reciprocates.  And Im a priority with him I think.  Its difficult sometimes when youre far away. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Your Dad once said that you are a better politician than he is and you love it more. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Thats true.  Thats true.  Im a better politician than him.  The best politician in the family is my mother who not only was better at campaigning, but better with every day-to-day politics.  I mean she would sit there with Dad at the dinner table and go through a list of things that meant something and he would listen. And, you know, she worked closely with Hamilton and that crowd in the campaign, often times trying to get dad to do something he didnt want to do or whatever, but they would go through Mom often because shes that good.  She still is.  If youve ever gone out and watched her campaign or watch her just do presentations, she still gets along with everybody in the world and very personable and people feel like theyve known her before.  You know, when they meet her for the first time people kind of feel like theyve already known her, which is an interesting thing. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Lets go back to 1962. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  62. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  When it all began for Jimmy Carter.  \r\n \r\nCARTER:  62.   My, I was 12 years old.  My father would make speeches around the 14th Congressional District.  So if he had a speech in Richland, he would drive me with him and put me out in Richland with the brochures and I would go in door to door and say \"Hi, Im Chip Carter, my fathers running for the State Senate\" and Id give them a brochure. And Id start, go all the way around, and dad, when he got through with his speech would stay on the other side and come back until he met me.  So we had that and that happened in 1966 in the Gubernatorial campaign quite a lot too.  We did the same thing.  Dad would make speeches and I did the brochures. \r\n62 was a tough year I think.  He was on the school board.  He ran for Senate.  He got beat by like 80 votes and there was 160 votes that were folded 10 at a time voting in alphabetical order stuffed in the box in Quitman County.  And Dad hired two lawyers to help him out.  They were David Gambrell and Charles Kirbo who later became fixtures in our campaigns and in our lives.  And Dad made Pennington, was it Brooks Pennington?  No. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Brooks Pennington. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  The editor of the Atlanta Constitution. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Al Gulliver. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Gullivers there too and then the reporter was named Pennington also. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Oh John Pennington. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  John Pennington.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  John.  \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Dad met Gulliver and Pennington then and they kind of got on ds side and they helped with the press, which it never would have changed had they not been involved in it too.   \r\nAnd Moore, I dont remember his first name, but he was in Quitman County in charge of the registrar and whatever.  He ended up spending time in jail for that.  And then later he was also sent back to jail for distributing moonshine, so it was one of those things.  And that was the first year that we changed from the county unit system to the direct vote for the governor.  So the south in Georgia lost an awful lot of power because I dont know if you remember but Sumter County, my county, had two votes in the county system and Fulton County had four votes.  So even though we had just a fraction of the amount of people, we had a lot more power.  So this change was coming on and I think it caused a lot of turmoil in that particular campaign amongst people trying to keep the power base when it was going to be taken away from them basically. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Right.  Well your fathers case handled by Kirbo and Gambrell went to court. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And the judge ordered a new election. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Yes. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And he won that election. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Yes he did.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  He went to the Senate. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  I remember. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yeah.  \r\n \r\nCARTER:  I was a page for him that year.  Stayed in the Dinkler Plaza Hotel and we would walk to work, leave at 6:00 in the morning to walk to the Capitol and stop at the Krystal which at that time was kind of new in Atlanta and wed have a big meal and get to the Capitol about quarter until 7:00.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  I think I mentioned to you the Bobby Rowan story about when he was 26 he was elected to the Senate and he strived to get up the earliest and be there first, but regardless of what time he got up Jimmy Carter was always sitting in the Senate Chamber reading bills. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Right.  Well Dad made it a habit to read every bill he voted on and that was highly unusual back then.  My guess is it probably still is, but he knew what was in them so people like Bobby Rowan - - there was a group, a small group of people, of which Bobby Rowan was one, Ford Spinks was another one, Paul Brown from Athens, Bob Smalley, J.B. Langford, that was kind of a clique of people that dad hung with and they all got together and decided on bills and dad wasnt their leader probably but he would read the bills and tell them, you know, what he thought about it and that kind of thing.  So a lot of those people, Ford Spinks, I think I left him out, those people and others were became fairly prominent in Georgia and as time went on and they grew older and a lot of them are very wonderful people still. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  1966 everybody thought your dad would run for Congress. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Yeah.  He had his eyes on Bo Callaway.  And they never really got along, but dad had his eyes on Bo Callaway and he decided to run for Congress and he was out campaigning and all of a sudden Callaway decided he was going to run for Governor and I think two days later dad announced hes going to run for Governor.  He was taking on Bo Callaway.  Bo Callaway went on to be the Secretary of the Army.  Was able, through almost no money of his own, to get Crested Butte from the Army.  Im not going to say anything else much about it, but he was also Chairman of the Gerald Ford campaign against dad. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Right. \r\n \r\n CARTER:  So that we ended up fighting Bo a long time.  After dad got out of the White House Bo Callaway called him one day and said \"We have a thing in Crested Butte for mentally retarded kids to come and ski and we wanted to know if you would come and honor us by being there.\"  So dad ended up making that a priority and went there every year and still goes there I think almost every year and he and Bo became pretty good friends after that.  Not that they would ever say so in public, but they got along and Dad went to Callaway Gardens to see him a few times, and Mrs. Callaway at Callaway Gardens has always been a close friend of us forever and ever and ever.  So, you know, politics changes.  It makes strange bedfellows, but regardless of politics people are people.  If you put them in a room, theyll end up getting to like each other even if they dont profess that when they get outside, as you well know.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well in that election in 66 it was a donnybrook, you know, as you recall Ernest Vandiver withdrew.  Senator Tallmadge said he was going to run there for a while Then he withdrew.  And then that left I guess three - - four pretty stout candidates  Ellis Arnall, your dad, Lester Maddox and James Grey. So it was a fight to see who could get in the runoff really. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  I forgot about James Grey.  Youre right.  It was a big one and dad and Ellis Arnall were basically fighting for the same votes in that time.  The one I remember is Ellis Arnall, somebody standing up on a stadium with a podium with all these people up there reading a postcard from the friends of Richard Russell and Herman Tallmadge say to the effect that they really supported Jimmy Carter and, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, and Ellis Arnall turned around and walked off the stage and got in the car and left.  He wouldnt even speak after they read this postcard which was from friends of, not from the people themselves.  I dont know if it had anything to do with that, but it was a wonderful, wonderful thing. \r\n That was a close campaign.  We thought wed won.  I went to school the next day and about 2:00 in the afternoon Billy came to school and pulled us out and told us wed lost, but we had thought the night before that we won and gotten into the runoff with Lester Maddox and then beaten Lester.  But we hadnt.  But we finally got there. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You made it. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  We made it. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Getting back for a minute to school integration, when Plains High School was integrated, you were, what? 10th grade? \r\n \r\nCARTER:  I was in 11th grade. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  11th grade.  And two black children walked into the school with no incidents, so obviously your fathers influence on the community had some effect on that. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  It did.  I wouldnt say there were no incidents.  I would say there was no violence. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  No violence. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  They didnt hit anybody.  See I got a hit a lot, but I was really voraciously against everybody that was racist and I let them know.  When they asked me, I told them the truth.  And I never hit back so anybody who thought they could hit me they did.  I just was a nonviolent person, but April Wright who was in my class and graduated with me was the daughter of one of dads sharecrop partners, and that was another reason that I'd go.  Shes a wonderful lady.  I still see her.  Her and Brenda Oats.  That was the two girls that came in.  And they both graduated pretty high in their class and they fit in.  It was a difficult time though, it really was. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Your family was religious. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Very. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Your Dad taught Sunday School. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Still does. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Still does.  \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Still does. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Your Mom is religious and Im sure your siblings. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  When Dad was running in 76 I went to this guys house door to door and he pulled me in and showed me a picture of him and dad in uniform and they served on a ship, before Dad got into submarines a ship, it was right after dad got out of the Naval Academy, and dad taught the Sunday School class there and brought this gentleman to Christ, and here I am in 76, you know, 30 years later and heres this guy, you know, with this picture of him and dad and this Bible with dads signature in it that dad had given him in the Navy, and I think this was in Pennsylvania.  I mean it was just like clear out of the blue sky when you knock on somebodys door, but that made a big impression on me.   \r\nAnd hes taught Sunday School his whole life.  He lives his life I think as he believes Jesus thinks we should.  Much more of the beatitudes than the 10 Commandments.  I wish somebody would get arrested trying to put the beatitudes on a courthouse wall because I dont believe people here, Christians, view much in the beatitudes anymore.  Its so confusing that so they can get their little anti-abortion and anti-this or that, or this or that, and they leave out the good stuff that God says youre supposed to do to your neighbor.   \r\nSo I lived in the Middle East about half my time now.  Im in Jordan, but Jerusalem is about 45 miles away.  Palestine is very close.  And I was out in this little village one day and theres this old well there and this woman bringing up water and she gave us glasses and we poured, we were drinking water, and then she begins to recite, from the Bible, Moses being at that same well when he met the girl that he indentured himself to the Father for for eight years to get her hand and ended up getting her sisters hand instead.  Had to do three more years to get her hand and it was at that well, and youre standing there 2,000 years later or more and its just an unbelievable feeling that you get when youre there. \r\nAnd my being brought up in the Christian faith and knowing that stuff makes me living over there so much more special.  Im not a great Christian, but Im a great believer in God, but I also can believe that Mohammed is a prophet.  I believe Jesus is the Son of God and Mohammed is a prophet.  So Im kind of a mixture of the two, but. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well it was obvious, back to 66, it was obvious that although your Dad didnt win, he had become a key figure in democratic politics in Georgia. But he went back to Plains.  And what did he do when he went back to Plains? \r\n \r\nCARTER:  He went back to Carter's Warehouse.  Got the thing up and going better.  Built his business.  And I guess he probably took a month off.  We started campaigning for election again four years later.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  I was going to ask you about that. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Because he was gone all the time.  I mean I remember Amy being born and Mom going to the hospital and calling dad and telling him to come home.  He got there from somewhere in north Georgia on time but had she been a bit earlier he wouldnt have been because he was out campaigning. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Did the family participate in his politics during that period? \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Yeah.  I was 16 years old.  We had an office at a hotel over on 285.  I dont remember the name of it now.  I mean on 75.  Every Sunday Dad would have us come there.  Wed get there Saturday night.  Wed leave on Sunday afternoon.  Id drive my car.  I had a congressional district theyd assign me and I would stop in every single store I saw and give out a brochure and tell them to vote for my father and I got $22.00 a week for expenses, plus a gas credit card.   \r\nSo I ate Carols cheeseburgers for 25 cents a piece, slept in my car.  Got up in the morning and put the coffee pot on the radiator of the car and cranked it up to heat it up and learned to drink my coffee black because the milk would sour, and that was at 16.  So I was on the - - I did that for months and months and months during that campaign.  And well it seemed like months and months.  I dont know.  Might have been three months.  Probably the summer after school was out, but. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  What was the family reaction, getting back to 66, to the loss? \r\n \r\nCARTER:  I think it was devastating.  When you say family youre not talking about Dad, youre talking about everybody thats around him.  I think all of us were discouraged and perturbed and the Georgia voters had made a huge mistake, which they had.  And Dad was kind of, you know, \"This is a bump.\"  \"Im going to be Governor\" and off he went to be Governor.  I mean it took him four more years, but Dad held us all together at that point talking about the good job we were doing, to come from nothing he had gotten way up there.   \r\nHed come before us in politics and, you know, people recognized him when we walked down the streets in Atlanta.  I saw that people say \"hey, hey Jimmy\" two or three times walking down the streets which to me was phenomenal because Atlanta was such a foreign place to me having been raised in Plains that it was this huge city.  It was tough but, you know, life went on.  Carters Warehouse was there and, you know, something to do.  You come back home, you work hard.  It was... \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And then 1970. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Yeah we started off early and did the same thing, you know.  Had our campaign put together.  Hamilton Jordan, as you know Im sure with your help, put together the campaign plan, and dad was good at bringing us, the family, into the campaign plan, meaning that hed sit down with a written campaign plan and hed say heres how its going to work, and heres what were going to do.  \"You got to do this by so and so\" and this, you know, I remember the 76 presidential campaign more were going to win in Florida, were going to do this, but in 70 he sat down with us with the campaign plan and said \"This is how were going to win, you know.  You have to go do this, we have to do this,\" and his big plan and we all bought into it and the family went out and did it. I think Mom after 76 was a lot more comfortable doing it.  She was really nervous I think in 76.  I have a picture of Mom and Dad shaking homes in the shopping center - - shaking hands in a shopping center when they didnt recognize each other.  They were just there shaking hands, you know, moving on. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Shook each others hands. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Shaking each others hands and not even knowing who it was, you know, moving on.  But we got this great picture of that and the shock on their face when they realized who they were shaking hands with.  But it was an interesting time, a time for all of us to learn obviously about Georgia.  I mean if youre doing like we are living in your car and youre talking to people and youre in and out of peoples homes and businesses and that kind of stuff, the education that you get is phenomenal about Georgians.  The same thing is true about America when youre doing a presidential campaign, but I think the first or most important lesson is that people are basically the same, and if you treat others with respect, youll get treated with respect, and thats something that I think dad has done all of his life.  Rich or poor, you know, whacko, radical, terrorist or anybody else, dad treats them with respect and in return kind of accomplished an awful lot of things.  Im not saying were now in todays time and not 66 or 70, but I think today that our problem with America is that our government doesnt treat others with respect, other governments or other peoples, and thats all that they had to do was not to feel superior and not to make other people feel like we thought we were superior.   \r\nI live in, like I said, the Middle East now and people there dont like us and the reason they dont like us is because they think that we dont respect them or their religion or how they were raised or their culture or anything else.  I dont believe that our government - - that we can help the cultural invasion that Americas had throughout the world.  I mean thats something that people have picked up and its not being propagated by our government, but the superiority complex that we suffer from is something that we could change fairly easily and I think that Obama will change next time.  I think even if McCains elected that hell change that to.  I mean its just, you know, a sad mistake on our part. \r\nBut in 70 the campaign was fast and furious.  Fundraising was something I was not involved with but it took a lot more of dads time in 70 than it had in 66, so I was out a lot more, I mean we were older obviously also, but he and mom spent a lot of time.  I remember dad sitting in the house making those phone calls day after day after day and how he hated every one of them, you know, hated every one of the phone calls, not the people but just having to dial and ask for money is something that he never got over.  I mean he still hates to ask for money even though he lives in an nonprofit world where he depends on other peoples money, so hes been doing it his whole life.   \r\nSo I think that the Governors mansion was phenomenal for me as a child to move into.  I had a little suite in the basement, two rooms.  Supposed to be servants quarters, but ours servants were for all prisoners that came in from the prison everyday, so nobody lived there.  So that was a great time for me.  Sat out front in the Governors office and worked there for eight hours and then went to Georgia State University.  And dad started way back then this non-nepotism thing.  So even though I worked eight hours a day, I never got a paycheck.  And still have never gotten a paycheck for many of the things he's done. Never got one from the federal government.  Never got one from the Carter Center.  Its not something that he particularly believes in, so. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well an unusual thing happened there in 70 when he was elected Governor.  Lester Maddox was elected Lt. Governor.  And they had quite a number of disagreements during that four years.  Im sure that that was very uncomfortable for your dad. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  It was.  It was.  I road a skateboard.  Lester rode a bicycle backwards, and I could ride around the Governors mansion on my skateboard backwards because I was trying to imitate Lester. \r\nA few things happened.  When we first moved in the very first day, Lester had moved out at Christmas and he came in and for Christmas Lester had given his son a brand new GTO, and when we moved in the GTO was wrapped around a large oak tree at the bottom of the driveway where he missed the curb.  I mean it was completely destroyed.  He must have been going 50 miles an hour on that little driveway.  You know, I kind of felt bad for his son actually who I had never met.  And I think Lester ended up becoming somewhat of a friend.   \r\nBut Lester Maddox was always really kind to me, you know, always treated me nicely.  Called me Mr. Carter.  You know how he kind of bowed when he shook your hand and he said  \"We got different politics but that dont mean we cant like each other.\"  And I always kind of liked him.  I mean I certainly disagree with his politics, but obviously those racist elections they were in with Barry Goldwater and all that kind of stuff going on there, that was a very difficult time in Georgia history.   \r\nBut I think that after racism I think that nobody now thats seen it without racism would want to go back because our economy has gone up so much, and, you know, I mean theres so many thousands of things thats gone right for us because weve kind of shed that.  But it was a difficult time to live in I think especially in a little town where your fathers a liberal or a nonracist, because I keep saying hes a liberal, but in a lot of the world what Ive realized when dad ran for President, a liberal and a conservative have to do with spending money.  That wasnt like that when I grew up in Georgia.  It was all racist or not.  Period.   \r\nSo I think dad would have actually been a conservative in Georgia if it hadnt been for racism because as you know he was pretty tight with the dollar or the dime.  And I think his budgets reflected that and I think that the stuff that he did as Governor with the zero base budgeting and the reorganization of government and those kind of things served him well and gave him the opportunity to run for President. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Speaking of his fiscal conservatism, Bert Lance liked to tell the story about being called in from the Department of Transportation to have lunch with your dad in the Governors office and having to pay for his own food. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Yeah.  $3.80 for a sandwich.  I remember.  I used to do the same thing.    Mary Beasley, I dont know if you talked to her in one of these things, but she would be a good one to get, but Mary Beasley used to collect the money for you to go in for lunch.   So Dad wouldnt see us giving it, but yeah $3.80 for a sandwich and a Coke or whatever it was.  And when I went and had lunch with him I had to pay when I went in too, so. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  His big program was reorganization. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And had some problems with it. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Sure. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  But finally passed it and do you think its worked to his expectation? \r\n \r\nCARTER:  I dont know what his expectations were.  Things were so bad when he got there that it obviously at least gave a platform to figure out where to go from here.  I mean, you know, just cut it back by 5% or do whatever.  The reorganization was very difficult because it involved a lot of peoples fiefdoms.  You know, people had spent years building up power in one little organization or something like that politically, which is how things work, and then when dad reorganized a lot of those people lost that.  So it was a huge fight going on. \r\nI think that it worked to his benefit largely - - we used it a lot in the presidential campaign and the results of it, so just as an advertisement for what he might do as President it was a really good thing.  I know thats not the reason he did it because I know he didnt think about running for President at that time,  but it really was helpful and he talked about it an awful lot the zero base budgeting and the reorganization of government. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  He had been in the Senate and he certainly knew how the government operated and what its shortcomings were. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  So his plan I think was fairly well accepted by the public. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  It was by the public.  Like I said but you had the fight with the people that owned that little fiefdom's that they had built over a while, so it was a lot of individual skirmishes.   \r\nBut the public accepted it well.  And dad made, you know, throughout that whole period he was making close friends with very capable people that ended up serving in the White House and in the campaigns and things that were really competent people who never even considered doing anything on a national level, never considered going out, because the people in Georgia just didnt do that.  So you can name more than I could. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well Im going to ask you about those folks in a minute or two. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  A lot of those people ended up in the White House in Washington. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Right.  And I want to get into that, but now year after he became President - - I mean after he became Governor, he realized that he wanted to be President. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  I dont think thats right.  I think it was after that. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  After that? \r\n \r\nCARTER:   I think what made him even think about it was all the Presidential candidates coming through for the 72 election staying in the Governors mansion and us talking to them and, you know, watching a lot of them drink a lot, you know, a lot of them came in and had to drink five or six scotches with milk.  And I think that that turned Dad off, the drinking, so he never drank during the campaign or while he was in the White House or anything like that.  Mostly because of that but I think he realized in 72 that those people coming through put their pants on the same way he did.  Wasnt anything particularly special about them.  It was something that he might could do and I think he started thinking about it after the McGovern got the nomination and lost the election.   \r\nAnd, you know, Hamilton make - - the crowd got together down in Bainbridge at Charlie Kirbo's cabin and put together a semi-campaign plan that Hamilton edited and put out that we followed, and it was very extensive and as you know then Hamilton went to Washington and worked for Bob Strouss and a lot of those people and ended up putting together a campaign.  Nobody cared because nobody thought we had a chance so we could do anything we wanted to, you know.  Power sure, let them have it, you know, I dont want to do that job, give it to him, you know, nobody ever expected us to have any kind of a chance at it. \r\nAnd Hamilton in that memo rewrote the rules.  Like I said we made Iowa important.  We turned out. 80% of the people that voted to us had never been to a caucus before.  Four years later when Kennedy ran against us it was one of the best all-time political stories ever, but a guy named Eddie Jesser who was our campaign coordinator, the press secretary there, was from Massachusetts and had formerly worked with Ted Kennedy, and knew a lot of the press and he was out there so we did a survey and found this one county that was the worst we had and we decided not to organize in that county.  So when the press would come in wed tell them were doing really good and we would name that county, it was 30 miles outside of Des Moines so easily accessible and people would go out there and find out that we were just doing horrible out there and wed tell them its one of our best.   \r\nSo even the night before the election they had written off dad as going to be defeated in Iowa I mean they - - because we had set Kennedy up so badly, and then election night we won 98 of the 99 counties.  The only one we lost was the one that we had told them we were doing well and the press had only been out to.  And Kennedy had gone from an expected massive win to an utter defeat which pretty much ruined him from then on.  He never recovered.  That was 76.   \r\nAnd by the way, the guy that ran that county was named Joe Trippi and Joe Trippi got his kick because he was the only one that won a county in Iowa.  So you talk to him and he talks about how he was the only one that won a Kennedy county there and thats how he ended up going up the ladder, you know, and he ran Deans campaign and Edwards campaign recently.  But thats how he got his start the county that we didnt bother with.  \r\nBut Iowa was something else.  Iowa is so much like, the people in Iowa are so much like Plains, Georgia.  Theyre farmers.  Theyre practical, you know, common sense people, and it was easy to associate with.  Billy did a lot of campaigning there.  Every green mill or whatever Billy was there helping at the scales or doing something, you know, and all these call-in radio things with ones that talked about the price of milk or the price of beef and, you know, how much youre getting for cattle, you know, for pigs that day or whatever, and Billy would be on those things talking about those prices and comparing them to the prices in Plains and just kind of making everybody feel like that we were all the same big family almost. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Tell us this, Chip.  Iowa was followed by you said Maine and then New Hampshire.  How do you distribute your resources between states like that which have quick elections?  Do you concentrate on Iowa first and then worry about the other two? \r\n \r\nCARTER:  No.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Or are you...  \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Youre worried about New Hampshire foremost because New Hampshire was the traditional starting point.  For an unknown candidate you had to do well in New Hampshire.  We won it, which was an amazing thing.  But that was two-prong.  Iowa and New Hampshire, then Sissy in Maine.  But Sissys budget I think was something like $11,000.00.  Sissy was just on the road.  She didnt have any money.  I dont know that we ran commercials there except some that fed over from New Hampshire.  \r\nWhat we ignored was what Scoop Jackson then called the \"big one\" which was Massachusetts, which was following New Hampshire.  We skipped Massachusetts basically and went to Florida.  But Iowa we had a huge campaign going, you know, and we had these people from Georgia, the Peanut Brigade \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Peanut Brigade. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  They went to Iowa and New Hampshire and, you know, everywhere you went you met people who have met people in the Peanut Brigade.  And it was a real phenomenal effort and totally different from anything anybody had done before.  A lot of people copied it afterwards, and people somewhat copied it then.   \r\nWhen I lived in New Hampshire I would get up almost everyday and have a debate and I would debate one of Udalls two children and one of Sarge Shriver's children, and Fred Harris daughter and, you know, we were just great friends.  We would get out there and wed debate and bash each other all up in every school you could meet and then at 11:00 at night on Saturday we met at the Meriwether Tavern, all of us, and sat there and took off our pins and we had four or five beers until about 2:00 every Saturday night, you know, just kind of in a friendly, like each other atmosphere, and I still am good friends with Maria Shriver and, you know, who was out on the campaign trail at that point.   \r\nSo it was good, you know, I spoke in St. Louis at the Jefferson Jackson dinner and I use this story a lot, but there was seven children surrogates for the seven candidates and Hubert Humphrey was the keynote address, and we all had five minutes so we got up and made our speech and everybody could have made each others speech because we had been around each other that much, and then Hubert Humphrey got up and talked for an hour and 30 minutes and he had the audience in the palm of his hands.  I mean he would look in the back and see somebody from China and he would talk about the corset coming from China, you know, I mean it was an amazing thing.   \r\nWe had a little reception afterwards and I went back there and told him that I got really nervous when I spoke.  I failed it three times in college and then I shook like this every time I got up there.  He give me some advice and he said \"yeah Chip I heard you speak earlier and my advice would be to always keep it short.\"  I used that story forever.  But it was an interesting campaign and like I said it was just us with a bunch of real people and kids and, you know, volunteers that poured in up there and little organization we did.  And Chris Brown ran it.  He was from New Mexico.  Tim Craft ran Iowa.  He was from New Mexico.  He was executive director of the party.  Craft was in the New Mexico party, and Brown had run the Governors campaign, Kings campaign out there, so dad went out and had dinner with them one night and hired them both and thats how they ended up where they were.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Florida turned the corner. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Iowa turned the corner and Florida kept us going.  Before that election they sent me to California.  And George Burns and I sat in this country club, Riviera, something, I dont remember. George Burns with a girl on each thing with a big cigar.  And he would call people over.  \"Write a check for $1,000.00 to Jimmy Carter.  Hes the only one that can beat George Wallace in Florida,\" you know, and I ended up sitting there and collecting 300 and something thousand dollars in a day sitting there with him and it was all to beat Wallace in Florida.  So I think that was our big - - youre right, our big test that if we had lost to Wallace in Florida, then both Dad and him would have been wiped off the map.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  What did you do there to beat Wallace? \r\n \r\nCARTER:  We ran a very positive campaign.  Never said anything bad about Wallace, but it was a lot of, you know, were your neighbor from Georgia and were down here and we had an organization that was nonstop.  You know, all the regular polls had gone with Scoop Jackson or other people, so we had a bunch of the kids that wanted to make a name for themselves in politics and we promoted them in the campaign and sent them out and did it.  Phil Wise, who is somebody else you might should talk to here, ran the campaign there, and it was just a people to people.   \r\nI mean youre talking about Peanut Brigade, from south Georgia they were down there every weekend and every - - during the week and my mother would ride by, we had a thing wed ride through until we saw a radio tower and then youd drive to the radio tower and youd walk in and youd say \"Hi my fathers running for President\" or \"Hi my husbands running for President, wed like to talk to you.\"  So, you know, youd drive in and sit down and youd talk to the radio thing and youd do that over and over and over.   \r\nToday the difference is that we worked our butt off for 30 seconds on the evening news.  And today youve got this door to door coverage of, you know, on cable so that youre on the news all that you have really cut back what you say to the news instead of trying to say something outrageous enough to get on the news.  So its turned into a real different kind of campaign then.   \r\nBut Florida was, you know, we spent money there, everything we had I think we were totally broke when the Florida campaign was over with, but positive advertising.  Not being bad to Wallace I think was the big thing.  We were the one that wasnt jumping on him.  The rest of them were because he was the one to beat there.   \r\nBut he liked dad.  He ended up endorsing dad, the first opponent to endorse him, after the campaign was over in 160 something delegates, which was a huge amount for us, and that gave us interest to get the other to settle it before the convention. And then I spent a good bit of time with George Wallace while dad was President.  I would go down and stop and see him every time I went down and do some special things for him.  He's Billys wife - - Sybils first cousin.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Is he really? \r\n \r\nCARTER:  So there was a family connection that was somewhat exploited against, you know, in 1970, that was not exploited in 76.    So but they came from the same town, Sybil and him, and she knew his whole family and - -  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  So the campaign picked up after Florida. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Yeah because Florida people that never heard of us and started giving us money, so that was a big thing and then the other candidates kind of split off meaning that Udall had run against us in Michigan and Jerry Brown was running against us somewhere else and Hubert Humphrey was running in Pennsylvania so we never really met in the field after that.  It was always trying to go in and go one on one with somebody, so it was \"ABC, Anybody But Carter,\" and that was a huge group. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  That was a remarkable campaign. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  It was.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Did you ever think when you were working in the peanut warehouse at age nine or 10 that you would one day be in the White House? \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Never.  Absolutely not.  You know its just something that came about. Its like being thrown to the wolves.  I mean you dont know whats going to happen the next day.  On the campaign trail or being the Presidents kid, you dont know if you were going to be speaking like I did with Grandmother to 2  million people or you were going to be seeing a blizzard up in Buffalo, New York or they were going to send you to, you know, it just didnt matter what it was.  You just went and I did it without ever even questioning it, and you know, not having had any experience in it, but you were supposed to go and do it and you did.  I mean the whole family did it.  \r\nIt was an amazing push on everybodys intellect and everybody's psychic that it didnt matter what it was.  You know, my favorite saying to myself is \"you can do anything for 20 minutes except hold your breath.\"  And you get in front of an audience and my knees shaking, I can do anything for 20 minutes except hold my breath.  I keep telling myself that 50 times a day.    \r\nWe were doing it, you know, and straight from Plains.  It was an amazing campaign.  And we made an amazing amount of friends, we stayed in peoples homes everywhere we went, another way Dad saved money, we never paid for hotel bills.  We always stayed in peoples homes.   \r\nYou know I just had an apartment in New Hampshire.  The first one I had was condemned.  We couldnt get the heat working.  I had 30 people living with me that were all volunteers from all over, so we called the public health department because the guy wouldnt let us out of our lease and the public health department came in and turned the heat on full blast and came back four hours later and took the temperature reading and it was 32 in the bedroom.  So we got that condemned.   \r\nAnd then we moved across the street, from Concord to Manchester across the street from Levis Red Arrow, which was on the press several times in this campaign.  They interviewed candidates there.  This campaign one of the places to -- we were in the fifth story Coldwater walkup and the night of the election we moved all of our stuff out and put it in the car because we were heading out the next morning and the whole place caught on fire and burned to the ground the night of our election.  All the volunteers that hadnt moved out lost everything.  It was quite an experience. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  California.  How do you run in California if youre a peanut farmer from Georgia? \r\n \r\nCARTER:  You dont and we didnt.  We screwed California.  We went there and raised money often times saying that we were going to put it back into California, but it never ended up getting back there even though when we were saying it at the time I really thought it might happened, that it was going to happen, but someone higher up in the level decided that money should be spent somewhere else.   \r\nBut I spent three months there the summer before the 80 election raising money and doing the pence.  I was there 10 or 12 times during the 76 campaign just trying to get media, you know, you hit three or four media spots you can get on the news for 30 seconds was basically what we were trying to do.  Its much too big to organize and much too big to do advertisements.  So you depended on the national press as much as possible and the newspapers.  \r\nBut it was basically a cash cow.  I mean we took the cash and then ran, which I think is still happening.  Florida was the same, I mean Florida for years has been the same where people go there.  They come to Georgia now and get money and then dont come back and campaign.  Its the same thing that happened in California. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  So Jimmy Carter was elected President of the United States in 1976 and became President in January of 1977.  You were at the inauguration? \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Absolutely.  I helped run it.  When dad was elected I think on the election was on Tuesday, I think on Thursday we went down to St. Simons Island to Musgrove Plantation and after about five days I got up early one morning, you know adrenalin, you know, you cant stop it.  Youve been living on it.  About 5:00  6:00 in the morning I was up, it was dark, and dads cabin had the porch light on and dad was sitting in the chair outside so he wouldnt wake up mom going through briefing books and stuff like that, and I walked up and I sad \"Im bored\".  He said \"Good.  I was hoping youd go to Washington and go and do the inauguration.\"  He said \"and Ive got Secret Service.  Take my car.\"   \r\nSo I had dads private little Pontiac, you know, and I drove up to Washington.  Could park that thing anywhere.  You could park in the middle of the Pennsylvania Avenue and nobody would tow it away.  It was a great car to have.  So I went up there and worked out of the fort and dad and I had a deal.  I could call him on Saturday and ask him no more the 10 minutes about the inauguration, any questions that they wanted, other than that if people everybody knew to go to me to get to dad on the inauguration and I was supposed to wait five or six hours and then go back and give them all dads answers, and the only thing I was supposed to ask dad about on Saturday was stuff I couldnt decide for him.   \r\nSo thats how we did the inauguration and put it together and then I worked up there.  Like I said you could park anywhere.  I mean it was the most amazing car in the world that you can drive around.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Following the swearing in ceremonies, your dad and mom surprised the nation by walking up Pennsylvania Avenue.  Was that planned? \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Yes, sir. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  It was? \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Yes, sir.  When I went home we planned that Thanksgiving.  That was that early we planned that we would do that and the Secret Service and them I sat down with mom and dad and it was a suggestion that we had for them from the people at the inauguration, and the Secret Service and everybody agreed that it would be great to do, but not if anybody knew it was going to happen.  So we never told a soul after that.  We just we knew it was going to happen.   \r\nWe did do some special things like set up a few TVs, you know, TV access areas in places that ordinarily wouldnt have had them to make sure that it would be covered, but we did that.  We knew about it.  We went out and bought - - my wife was pregnant, my son was born in February.  dad took office in January.  So we had her the proper shoes for walking and all that kind of thing.  And then we had Georgia Tech put together this beautiful inaugural stand for us to sit on the grounds of the White House and watch the parade and it was solar powered.   \r\nAnd about 20 minutes after being there we laid this huge orange wire from the back of it into the White House to plug the damn thing in.  It was so cold that you couldnt move in that thing, and Omar Bradley was about to freeze to death in his wheel chair.  I mean he was sitting there complaining.  Who wouldnt complain?  And so we ended up talking solar power and had these space heaters in front of us the whole time that nobody could see on TV.   \r\nBut that first night in the White House was amazing.  We did our inaugural ball and came back the very next night we watched \"All the Presidents Men\" in the White House before it came out, and youre sitting there and they are calling your new phone number.  It was great to watch, you know.  So it was a...  \r\n \r\n SHORT:  Speaking of \"All the Presidents Men,\" lets talk for a minute about the folks who supported your Dad who went with him to Washington.  Of course, naturally Hamilton Jordan.  \r\nCARTER:  Hamilton Jordan was the editor/architect of the campaign plan.  Probably as good a political hack as there is or was in America.  Gave everything that he had to my father.  Health, everything else.  Because of him we were able to overthrow the most powerful country on earth.  I mean if youre talking about changing of regimes, hes the one that did that.  He was a great Chief of Staff, ran a tight ship.  Everybody liked him.   \r\nHe and I never particularly got along. When dad ran for Governor in 1970 I was in college and I was having a little bit of trouble with drugs, and dad said, \"Okay get out of college.  Im sending you to work with me on my campaign\" and sent me to move in with Hamilton, and Hamilton had a campaign one-bedroom apartment so I slept on the sofa downstairs and Hamilton never liked it. \r\nHe was dating Nancy Conesmark at the time and Nancy would come home from the University of Georgia and Hamilton would give me 3 bucks and I would go down to the XXX movie theater on the corner and buy a ticket and spend the night there sitting in the seat sleeping so that I could come back here.   \r\nI was the only person that could be my fathers son on the road campaigning so Hamilton stopped anything I tried to do otherwise during the administration or whatever.  I worked for the Democratic National Committee and a couple of times they came up with plans for things they would like for me and Hamilton nixed them all the time because I was the only one that could do what I was doing.  So there wasnt ever a lot of love lost, but there was an awful lot of respect. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Bob Strauss.   \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Funny, smart, shifty, powerful, unbelievable sometimes.  And never really a Carter supporter until we won in 76.  Of course he was with us from then on, but he was for Scoop early on, but he helped us put together a campaign for the general election and did an excellent job. He brought in all those old guys that had played the old time for the long time and that dad was basically replacing because these guys were not going to be in the administration because none of them knew dad.  So he ended up putting all those people together for dad.  And was very, very helpful for us. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Griffin Bell. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  My mothers cousin.  My father repeatedly points it out when he wants to embarrass her.  Griffin has loyalty only to Griffin.  He screwed dad many, many ways while he was in the White House and since.  Has never been very close to us and was an absolute mistake.  Dads worst appointment. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  As Attorney General? \r\n \r\nCARTER:  As Attorney General in my opinion of course. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Bert Lance. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Wonderful guy.  Smart, businessman type.  I think hes the only person to write a check to pay off the federal debt while he was OMB manager in Washington.  Wasnt as scrupulous in his business dealings, and still isnt, as my father would have been and which would have been required for the kind of publicity and stuff that they put him in, but as a Georgia banker he did exactly like all the other Georgia bankers did.  So it wasnt, you know, its a difference in those definitions and how you look at things when they get older. \r\nStill a friend of the family.  Saw him not long ago.  My son got married three weeks ago and Bert was there, he and LaBelle.  Theyve had a tough run with some of their children.  Ive tried to help some of their children on occasion.  Was in business with him a couple of times and he made money and I didnt, so thats as far as you should go with that, but I think that he really helped dad not only get elected, but with those power brokers and people that the same kind of crowd that Bert Lance helped with - - I mean that Bob Strouss helped with during the campaign.  They knew they could talk to him and that he would be honest with him and tell him what was going on, so I give him a lot of credit for whats happened. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Jack Watson. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  He ran the reorganization team if I remember correctly during dads administration and went on to work and ended up being Chief of Staff after Hamilton quit in the campaign.  I know him fairly well.  Not as well as some of the others.  He was never a day to day at the campaign when I was there and I was on the road a lot so the people I dealt with were mostly over the telephone, but I think hes really competent and came home and got beat when he ran for Governor.  Hamilton got beat when he ran for the Senate.  So a lot of that didnt transfer when they came back here.  But Im assuming that hes a great lawyer and is wealthy and I think thats probably what he wanted to do. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Charlie Kirbo was very close to your dad. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Yeah.  He refused any position in the White House or in the administration.  But Dad got him to do special projects like with the Indians in Maine.  The Indians claimed the whole state of Maine in a lawsuit and dad got Kirbo to handle it and he went up there and got a compromise on it.  It worked out well with everybody. \r\nIve always thought of Kirbo as dads father figure.  You know I didnt know dads father.  He died when I was small, but Kirbo was I think the one that dad would call for fatherly advice, not only political advice.  And I think one of the best things that ever happened to dad was having that contested election in 1962 when he met both David Gambrell and Charlie Kirbo because of their powerful and positive influence on him after that.   \r\nAs you know, the Carter Center has the Kirbo Annex which is the only one named for somebody other than dad, and I think that dad felt that he was almost like a father to him.  Someone he could trust with anything, talk about with anything.  He wasnt very good running dads trust when he was out of office because when dad got out of office the Warehouse had so much debt we had to sell it.  And I think dad after paying off the debt dads total life investment in that place netted him less than $100,000.00.  So when he got out of office he was broke, which has probably not happened to many other Presidents.   But Kirbo was always somebody that we all respected.   \r\nBilly had a goat named Mack that would ride in the front of pickup truck on the front seat and Billys wife, Sybil got really perturbed because Billy wouldnt make the goat get in the back so hed always ride in the front.  And he told Billy that he was going to have to give that goat away.  So Billy put the goat in the car front seat, he drove it to Kirbo's house here in Atlanta and had a 50 foot cord and he tied that goat to the doorknob of Kirbo's house and left about 10:00 in the morning.  And Kirbo and them werent at home.  They got home a day later and there was no vegetation, no plants, no anything within 50 feet of that doorknob.  That goat had destroyed everything.   \r\nBut Kirbo was the kind of guy that would laugh about that.  And, you know, I dont think he was libral and yet he was the first person I knew that had a cabin in south Georgia that was off the grid, generated his own electricity, you know, he could live like a hermit there, but he had the power generation going and solar panels and everything right there on his property.  I mean this was back in the early 80s right before anybody was really doing it, so I thought it was - - I always liked and respected him.  He and Boo. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  How about David Gambrell? \r\n \r\nCARTER:  I think David and dad felt more of each others equals than as father/son.  As you know David appointed dad to the U.S. Senate.  When dad was elected Governor before he took office, Richard Russell was on his deathbed and he called dad to Washington to see him.  So dad went up there between November and January and Richard Russell said he was going to die, but he wasnt going to die until dad was Governor because he didnt want Lester Maddox to appoint himself to the U.S. Senate.   \r\nSo Russell died two days after dad took office and dad appointed David Gambrell who lost the next election to Sam Nunn, who turned out to be a great guy, Sam Nunn, but at the time as you know politics was all personal so we were a little sad that David didnt win, but looking back Sam Nunn did an excellent job so I dont think the state suffered.  I think the Gambrell's and we suffered, but the state didnt suffer.  And our country certainly gained Sam Nunn being there. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Some people thought that your father should have appointed Ernest Vandiver.   \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Well thats the worst thing of appointments.  You get to make one person happy and 20 sad or mad, and I think thats something you have to do when -- you got to just take responsibility and do what you think is right.  Dad was not the typical Georgia politician when he got elected.  He was not power to the power structure and David Gambrell was not part of the power structure and dad tried, you know, I think dad purposely went outside the political power structure in the state to appoint David and I think it was fine.   \r\nVandiver might have won again.  I think his daughter is now Chairman of the party or something.  But I always liked Ernest Vandiver too, who helped with dad also was a friend.  Maybe we should have appointed him.  I thought he always should have appointed you, Bob. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well I might have to gracefully decline. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  But you wouldnt have then.    \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Probably not.  One more, Jody Powell. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  I think Jodys probably the smartest of all of them, including dad.  Has a real knack with people.  Never misses with a shotgun.  I saw him shoot 100 out of 100 skeet at Camp David.  Has gotten very wealthy since the Carter administration and hasnt changed at all, which is not true for most of them.  Still easy to get along with and talk to.  Still cultivates great friendships among the press and does a great job Im sure for all his clients.   \r\nAnd I think without Jody that dad might not even been elected Governor much less the Senate.  As you know, Jody was dads traveling companion during the Governors years, when dad ran for Governor and kept his notes and helped him write his speeches and, you know, just kind of was an alternate ego of dads and it takes him about two seconds to get right back into alternate ego with dad even today.  So, you know, I have an awful lot of respect for him, as much as anybody Ive ever met. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Theres often been criticism that President Carter had too many Georgians on his staff.  Do you think thats a fair assessment? \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Maybe, but I think the people that made those criticisms are the people in Washington that would have had those jobs had somebody else gotten elected.  You know, like I said, dad was not part of the power structure, so he brought the people he trusted and he believed that could do the job with him come in instead of those people who had hung around Washington kissing fannies long enough so they could get an appointment to something.   \r\nSo that was a lot of the criticism, and I remember the, you know, the jokes that dad with a piece of grass coming out of his mouth holding a fork up and, you know, us being country bumpkins, but we were country bumpkins but we won and they didnt,  just happened to be it was the country that we were involved in and trying to help and not the power brokers of Washington.  So we ran against that a lot.   \r\nKennedy really tried to coalesce all the power brokers that were there before dad in Washington so we had a lot of that group against us in 1980 when we ran against him, and it was very difficult to get them back.  I do know, because I talked to dad recently after Kennedy got sick and told him that I thought the two of them should get together and work out some of their differences and that maybe neither one of them could get to Heaven until they did, and he informed me that they already had.   \r\nSo I was very pleased with that, but Senator Kennedy was a jerk when he ran.  He felt entitled.  Similar the way Hillary felt this time that it was theirs; that it didnt matter what anybody else did and could not believe that he was being beat, and he couldnt believe when he got beat that he wasnt going to win at the Convention and he made serious mistakes during the general election in the 80 campaign of which Kennedy has regretted. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well speaking of being a Washington outsider, how difficult was it for your dad to pick a cabinet and how did he go about that? \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Well he had transition teams and others.  He went to Musgrove Plantation and right after the election set up a group and crowds of people would come in and make recommendations for all the things.  Jack Watson had already run an organization for a while that was kind of behind the scenes trying to vet people on who they thought should be doing what, so somewhat set up on how to get it done by the time he got elected.  \r\nBut a lot of the, you know, the cabinet came from out supporters but dad was never near as political as he should have been.  Had dad been more political he would have gotten reelected, but he just didnt, he wanted to do what was right regardless of politics in it.  Panama Canal Treaty was right, but what six or eight U.S. Senators got beat because of it, including Herman Tallmadge.  So, you know, there are some right things you can do in your second term, but he wouldnt put anything off until the second term except he put off the Palestinian issue until the second term after the Camp David issue, so it still never got done.  It would have had dad gotten reelected.   \r\nBut it was hard running that 80 campaign with dad not being a politician.  Staying in the White House letting Khomeini keep him cooped up.  Mom taking Mondales place and me taking Mom s place on the campaign trail and dad always in the Rose Garden.  It was difficult.   So...  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Speaking of that... \r\n \r\nCARTER:  I had forgotten who we were talking about when I went off on that tangent.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  We were discussing - -  \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Cabinet. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Choosing a cabinet. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Choosing a cabinet. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Which also brings up the question of Vice President.  How did he end up selecting Mondale?  Is there any particular reason for it? \r\n \r\nCARTER:  I think it was tiny reasons.  We had a six people come to Plains to be interviewed by dad.  They would all come in and fly in a little airstrip, be picked up in Atlanta.  John Glenn flew the airplane that landed in Plains and bounced about 100 yards when he tried to land in a tent which the press thought was really exceedingly funny. \r\nBut Mondale came in and had memorized everybodys name.  He knew my name.  He knew all of Billys childrens name's and obviously had a picture because he would see them and go up and say \"Hi Kim\", you know, he knew Hugh Carter when they did the store he walked in and talked to Hugh and somebody had been down there taking peoples pictures and Mondale had memorized all that stuff when he got there and that made a good impression on a lot of folks in Plains, so Plains was for Mondale because of that.   \r\nAnd I think beyond that dad tried to see who he thought would be the best President because obviously, you know, Minnesota was a Hubert Humphrey place and you were going to win Minnesota as a democrat, at that time anyway.  It wasnt that he picked him to balance the ticket or anything like that.  But I thought that dad thinks - - I mean that dad knew that he knew the Senate, that he was well respected there and dad could trust him and that he would be a good president somehow.   \r\nAnd he was my favorite like I said and obviously everybody in Plains favorite.  He knew the Post Master by name when he walked in.  It was an amazing - - something nobody else had ever thought of but Im sure he had to have somebody, photographer that went down there in advance to take peoples pictures and write down the names so he could study them.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Getting back to the cabinet, the key cabinet positions of course at that particular time were filled by Washington insiders. And I dont remember, Im sure you will, how many of those so-called insiders your dad replaced? \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Cy Vance I guess was replaced because of the Iranian hostage situation.  Griffin Bell was replaced for incompetence but he wasnt a Washington insider at the time, and later became George Bush Sr.s attorney, and hes from Americus, which is nine miles from Plains for people that dont know.  I used to hitchhike over.  That was the big city we went to when I was growing up. \r\nI dont remember the rest as being anything more than natural attrition.  I mean we made a Malaise speech and that kind of thing, but...  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Bert I dont think that OMB was cabinet.  I dont believe that was cabinet at the time, although it still is so that wouldnt have counted.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well its just interesting to talk about what a President does when he comes into office having all that tremendous responsibility of finding the right people for the right jobs.  You mentioned Camp David.  How often did you get up to Camp David? \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Very often.  I went quite often when he wasnt there.  It was a nice place to take a date.  Cheap, you know, boy you talk about cheap dates.  You go to the White House with your - - you buy a bottle of wine, sit in the Red Room and have a glass and go downstairs and see the movie.  I mean, it costs you like a bottle of wine and any girl would say yes.  I mean, it was an amazing thing to have women chase me, instead of me chasing women.  It ruined my marriage.   \r\nBut Camp David is a wonderful place.  It sits above an extremely secure communications system that red phone comes out of there.  Thats one of three locations.  Its got a underground - - you get in the closet in my cabin and you slide the coat hanger like that and the wall opens and you take the circular stairs down into the bomb shelter and 180 people could live there for a year.  Thats over and above the military that live there.  And it has all kinds of outdoor activities 3 T1 green chip and put thing that Eisenhower had put in and has skeet shooting and golf carts and bowling alley and movie theaters.  Its a really neat place and it was totally private.   \r\nWhen you live in the White House you lose your privacy completely. To be private became a real something that a lot of people strove to just find some place where they can go where nobody was looking over their shoulder. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  You know I could go out to - - I would date and go out to a bar or something in Washington and have a perfectly normal evening.  The bar itself would call the gossip columnists to say that I was in there doing something just to get the bars name in the paper, thats what they were there for, so it didnt matter where you went every single day, you know, people knew where I was the day before because the proprietors or the people that worked in the place were called to try to get the publicity.   \r\nSo that was kind of difficult, but I dated some interesting - - I dated Linda Ronstadt for a year or more.  Still see her occasionally, you know, were close friends and I had girlfriends all over the country.  I had a blast.  I was a single kid at the time.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Were you accompanied by the Secret Service? \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Yes, sir. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  All the time. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Yes, sir.  Knock on the door to a date and go \"Hi Im Chip and this is George and John and Bill\", you know, yes sir I had it all the time.  One week a year with the Presidents permission, meaning he had to sign a formal thing, I would sign off one week a year so I would go to Boston and they would take me to a dock.  I had a friend that had a sailboat and we would go out sailing for a week and they would take me to the dock and then a week later they would come there and meet me.  I wasnt allowed to leave the dock without the Secret Service, but once a year they let me get on the sailboat and go off and do regattas and goof around up in New England, so I did that once a year. \r\nDad was defeated in November and the next Sunday I signed off Secret Service and bough a little Ford Escort and put 10,000 miles on it before we went out of office just visiting all the people and doing all the fun things I couldnt do because I had policemen with me.  Every time I went so I had a good three months. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  So after your fathers defeat the Secret Service just left, huh? \r\n \r\nCARTER:  I had to sign off on them.  He had to sign off.  Mine went from me to Ronald Reagan, Jr.  And he was at the time in ballet class in New York and so for Christmas that year I sent all my agents size 12 tutus. \r\n So I had a great group of guys.  Youre supposed to stay no more than a year, but I was on the road for 22 months.  My agents, nobody left me for 22 months.  They stayed on the whole time.  And each agent made as much as a director which is the maximum you could make because I was on the road constantly.  I averaged 13 speeches a day, 24 days a month for 20 consecutive months in that campaign.  And the other times I was on the phone with Jody or back home and doing the briefings because I was answering those questions out there that Jody, you know, everyday Id get the briefing and then I'd know what to push.  So that was my life during that time.   \r\nYou know it was all adrenalin, it was all you didnt know where you were, the agents became youre best friends because they were they were the only constant, you know, and I was never late but once and that was because the airplane had to make a unexpected landing because of the air compression went out and we sat there with this bubble, you couldnt see above it.  We had this bubble above us, this cloud with the air compression, and it had to land so that was the only time I was late.   \r\nAnd it was, you know, like I said a real interesting time.  I was in all 50 states three times and it wasnt that you saw the sites, it was that you got to meet the people, you know, people that go on vacation and dont end up in somebodys home talking local politics or whatever, and thats what I did every night with somebody different.  So you gained your respect for the differences that people had by region, but also the similarities were just so overwhelming that it turned into a really good thing. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  The hostage situation hurt your dad, didnt it? \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Um-hum.  Sure did.  Khomeini and Kennedy, and the failed attempt was tough.  I got the call and I was in the upper peninsula of Michigan and got a call from my father at 4:00 in the morning and told me to come home.  And when I got in the car they put me through some kind of secure system where they could tell me that the hostage crisis thing had failed and that they were bringing us all back in for a few days.   \r\nAnd one of the things I still have is when I went to the Oval Office to see dad when I got in is he wrote me out talking points on Afghanistan handwritten just little blurb like he did and I have still have the handwritten Afghan stuff the same day from his talking points from what happened that day.  And I have another one the same thing when Russia invaded Afghanistan he did the same thing wrote out the talking points. \r\nSo those are fun days.  I mean it was so much work.  You never got to stop, you know, you go all day long literally from factory shift in the morning at 4:00 to the events that started at 10:00 or 9:30 or youd get off about 11:00, adrenalin pumping, so youd have four or five drinks.  I understood exactly why those politicians kept coming here to see dad did that because it was the only way you could get to sleep.  And then without the alarm clock you would wake up and I had it down where it took me 20 minutes to get up, shave, shower, dress and walk out the door packed ready to move on to the next place.  So and that went on over and over every day after day after day.   \r\nAnd I didnt make a mistake.  I mean I never got the press on me for saying something wrong.  I did say some bad things, but mostly they were told to me by Jody to say.  Like I blasted Billy two or three times when Jody would call me and say it was necessary that I do it.  I didnt want to do it and Billy hated me a long time after that.   \r\nBut and then one day Dad had this - - I was on the set of Happy Days with all the people, you know, that was a big TV program back then, and I was sitting there.  Mrs. C was the only republican in the whole crowd the rest of them were democrats.  And this reporter came up to me for ABC and said \"Your father just said that he lusts in his heart.\"  I said \"Well I dont know anything about that, but I know hes got the biggest heart of any man in the world.\"  Of course that made the national news that night.  \r\nSo those were, you know, some of that was planned.  Sometimes it wasnt, but mostly I got local media.  I was never where dad was, never where mom was because I was trying to get the local media the political reporters like in Atlanta if I was here to talk to me and put an article about me in there.  If dad or mom was around or grandmother or even Billy I didnt get any press, so they never put us in the same place because of that. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  So 80 was a very, very disappointing year. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Your dad had struggled through a lot of political issues that were not of his making. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And the Congress was not particularly good to him. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Right.  Thats true.  It was a tough time.  And dad was hurt by the rejection.  I dont see how you couldnt be.  Over half the people in America say no thats a bad deal, but I had a great job offer from Saul Winnowits who was on the Board of Directors of Ford Motor Company, and they wanted me to come over and spend a year in the Middle East and at the end of the year become the Managing Director of the Middle East for Ford.  And I had another offer from Ted Turner and his offer was to come in and spend two weeks in each of his 10 divisions, pick one, stay within there six months, come back and negotiate a salary with him.  And those were the two I was really interested in, and I went to talk to dad about it in the oval office and dad said, \"No I need you to come to Plains.\" \r\nSo I ended up giving up those job opportunities and moving to Plains for two years, which I regretted in one way because I could have made a lot of money and done a lot of stuff, instead I made no money and the only way I could figure out to get out of Plains was I called up Fritz Mondale and I said, \"Ill do anything in the world you want me to, but you got to call my father and tell him that you need me to work on your campaign.\"   So Mondale called dad.  So dad allowed me to move to Atlanta and work for Mondale, so I finally got out of Plains.  Dad spent half of his lifetime trying to get out until he finally did and now he wants to stay there.  I spent all my life trying to get out.  So I finally got out again.   \r\nBut, you know, dad did a lot of, you know, set up his woodworking shop and he wrote a book and did a lot of stuff there that I helped with during that time and - -  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Hes a doer isnt he? \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Hes a doer.  He doesnt stop. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Even today.  I mean, you know, I dont know what he did today, but I know at 5:00 he got up and I know by 5:15 he was sitting at his typewriter and he was writing on his book until 7:00.  At 7:00 he gets up and makes a pot of coffee.  Then he gets a cup of coffee and takes it in there and wakes mom up.  Gives her a little backrub and gives her the coffee every morning.  Sometimes rubs her feet.  Gives her coffee and gets up, and while shes getting up and doing that stuff, he puts on his swim trunks and goes out and swims his mile.  And he gets out and mom s been up by now and she goes and swims hers because its a small pool.  Two people cant do it at the same time.  But thats kind of the routine.  I know by 7:00 hes written two hours on some book or some article or something.  Thats not Carter Center business.  Thats anything else.  Thats just him up there doing his writing stuff everyday. \r\nAnd then he goes all day long and he wears people out still.  Hes 83 years old and he wears out everybody when theyre trying to be around him.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Youve traveled the world with him, havent you? \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Some.  Yeah.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Tell us about that. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Hes a lot more respected internationally than he is at home.  Most countries, European, Asian, when they have the gossip column they write about politicians and businesspeople, not about actors and actresses and those kinds of things, so in Germany for instance people know who my father is much better than I do because hes in the gossip column. Every time he goes to Africa theres a little thing in the paper.  Everybody knows about him. \r\nBut Ive seen being treated with respect in the worst of circumstances.  He negotiated a peace treaty for humanitarian reasons, excuse me, in Sudan.  And he had been with the SPLA and John Garang in the south and they had agreed that they would do a two-month ceasefire so we could get in and fight Guinea worm and give vitamin A and Measles vaccinations.  Three million people died in that war, but still the biggest killer of children under six was Measles, not starvation or anything like that.  Starvation was a tool used on both sides of the war, but they were dying because they hadnt got that one Measles shot.   \r\nSo he talked John Garang into the ceasefire and then he went up to the north to the government of Sudan to meet with President Bashir and Bashir told him no he wasnt going to do it, and dad said well I was planning on sending my son here to manage it, it means that much to me, and in the Arab world that means more than it does here, and Bashir said really?  If youre going to send your son then Ill do it.   \r\nSo I had been in Morocco, met with the King of Morocco, just got a deal where he signed this agreement to buy gravel from a gravel pit in Morocco to build his roads with, and we used that signed agreement to finance 10,000 low income housing units there close to the gravel pit, and I had just done the deal and excited about it, and I had gotten home on Saturday night and 2:00 in the morning on Monday morning - - 2:00 at night Sunday night the phone rings and I picked it up and I hear dad say \"You wouldnt believe how beautiful it is in Khartoum this time of year.\"  \r\nWell I dont know if youve ever been to Khartoum, but Khartoum is the middle of the desert.  Everything is the same color about the color of that mat.  I mean everything.  Doesnt matter.  The roads, the houses, the streets, everything is all the dust color of that thing.  Its not a beautiful city at all.   \r\nI ended up going over there for two months.  End up getting it stretched to four months the ceasefire, the only ceasefire for humanitarian reasons ever done.  And we had a deal worked out with dad where I would call him on the phone from my hotel room.  Ted Turner had lent dad Arnezs telephone that he had used to call in all the things from Baghdad during that war.   \r\nAnd so I had this big satellite telephone thing that was, you know, as big as a trunk.  I mean it was huge that I had come there and we had it set up on the roof of the hotel I was in, with the governments permission, but quickly I quit using it because I could call and dad on the landline at $6.00 a minute and I could explain something to him and if I used a certain word in the first paragraph, my first sentence, then he knew that he was supposed to cuss out the President and tell me to go tell the President to do this or that or duh, duh, duh, duh, duh.   \r\nSo we would do this and he would say \"You go tell that son of a bitch that I am gonna...you go tell him right now.\"  Well this would be the night before.  Well by the time I got up the next morning, I got a driver, I showed up the first time and they had 60 Sudanese military to protect me, this was my first trip there, right, and a driver, a car with a Mercedes limo with number two on the tag, President 2 it had on there, so I looked up and said \"What are all yall doing here? I thought I was going to somebody protect me from you guys, not you guys protecting me.  I dont want any cops.  All I want is that car.\"   \r\nSo I went over there and got in the car and drove off.  So that car was mine for the whole time I was there.  Because Id get in the car and say \"I got to find the President, got to give this to the President.\"  He already knew it, you know.  Wed drive around blah, blah.  Hed end up taking me to wherever the President was because he the night before the President would already know I was coming.    \r\nSo one day Im driving up there taking me to his home in the suburbs which is on a military base, and Ive been told to stand there and wait at the door, and as I did these people started coming out.  President Bashir comes out, who Ive met with 30 times and knows me pretty well by now, hell speak English with me but not with dad.  He doesnt interpret what I say, but everything dad says gets interpreted to him.  \r\nThese Iranians are coming out and he was introducing me to them, and I was shaking their hands and the last one he says you got to shake this guys hand before I introduce you so I was shaking it and he said this is the student who took over the embassy in Iran when your father was President.  Hes now ambassador here to Sudan.  And I kind of pulled my hand back and I said \"I dont normally shake hands with women.\" \r\n And I tried to walk through the Presidents door.  The President and ambassador just stand there and kind of stared at me because thats somewhat of an insult in the Arab world.  Its a nice insult, but its an insult.  So Im sitting there and they had arrested the care worker in southern Sudan and had her under house arrest and she couldnt get out and do her job and all this stuff was sitting there and the ceasefire was supposed to be going on and they werent supposed to be arresting people and Im sitting there with my finger in the Presidents tie like this on the sofa and dad comes on CNN at the same time, which is over in the corner, and I said theres my father.  Hes the one that told me this last night.   \r\nWell the President already had a transcript of what dad said the night before so he knew what was coming and before I would ever get to see him he would already have the answer to what I wanted every time.  So it worked out well. \r\nAnd then I did spend about six months total in Sudan and then I spent about six months in Liberia putting on the first free and fair election they had when Charles Taylor won.  So those are the two huge things Ive done for the Carter Center overseas.  That was an interesting election.  Theres no government.  All anarchy.  No monetary system.  No checks.  No credit cards.  Only cash.  U.S. cash.  So theres no way to pay people.  We had to set up all the voting booths and we had to pay all the workers that worked there.   \r\nSo me and a woman named Denise from Washington each put $1.3 million each in a duffle bag and, from our government, my government, who my government told me not to report it on the airplane, so we walked home with our carry on duffle bag, you know, heavy duffle bag with all these small bills because we had to pay people, you know, people are making like $12.00 a day so we had all this change to pay people for three days during the election.   \r\nSo we get to the airport finally and first of all we get into Abidjan to spend the night before we take the thing the next day and here we are with, you know, $2.6 million in our rooms, so I put mine above the closet and the closet above the thing, she put hers in there.  We went out and had a part, you know, did the town and came back in the next morning and had to check the luggage on this Russian airplane. As passengers sitting down at the very end they closed the back door and opened the front door and then they throwed the luggage in the front and against the pilots door, so heres we see our, you know, two million being thrown in.   \r\nWe arrive at the airport in Liberia and Monrovia and its anarchy.  I mean people there are trying to take stuff away from you.  You know they got to get your yellow card, your passport and then your yellow card and take your luggage and all that kind of stuff.  So I had called some friends of mine that were roughtians.  A roughtian is, theyre all black of course this is Africa, a roughtian is about 64 with a shaved head, dark clothes, dark sunglasses even at night.  And theyre guards for the king or the tribal leader, and each tribe, theres 13 tribes, had a group of roughtians.   \r\nSo I called up this group of roughtians who came in their pickup truck to the airport and I told them I had computers trying to get to the office and I didnt want them to get stolen, so they were there and here we are thrown in the back of this pickup just $2.6 million driving to our office.  I mean a thousand people around with their hands out trying to get stuff from you.  Theres only one plane a day.   \r\nSo we arrived there, put it in our locker and having to pay everybody in cash, but thats just some of the uniqueness of having an election in Liberia.  Charles Taylor won that election free and fair and could have been good, would have been good I think, expect our government cut him off just like that because they supported Ellen Sirleaf who is now the President.  They gave her several million dollars to run for President there.  He beat her and they never forgave him so they wouldnt allow him to do anything with our consent.   \r\nSo they ended up screwing him and he just finally said \"The hell with it.\"  Made all his friends rich, instead of trying to govern.  He had already gotten rich enough.  He wasnt going to need money, but after we treated him like that and wouldnt accept anything he did, wouldnt even accept this free and fair election it was.  He kind of changed into a bad guy and ended up trying to overthrow Siera Leone.   \r\nBut my MO as that every night at 9:00 if youre a U.S. citizen you had a U.S. curfew on you, you couldnt go out after 9:00 and the reason for that is because our Embassy people get combat pay if theyre in a bad area and if they dont have a 9:00 curfew its not a bad area, so these people lose 25% of their pay.  So if youre trying to put your kids in college you dont want to lose 25% of your pay so you keep it as dangerous as you possibly can in order for you to get danger pay, and it still happens today.  Its a ridiculous system that we got set up that way. \r\nSo at 9:00 we had a curfew.  So the ECOMOG which was the military authorities from Nigeria had a curfew at 11:00.  So at 9:00 I leave my compound, walk out to the crossroads where they had this big sandbag thing and the troops and give them all cigarettes and shoot the crap with them a little bit, then I walked down the streets.  There was a big war going on and 13 tribes each one of them had a section of the beach.   \r\nAnd so youd walk down, this was pitch black dark, and there had been no electricity or running water for seven years because of the war so it was dark.  Youd be surrounded by these roughtians, big black guys with sunglasses and dark clothes, and Id pull out $10.00.  I had on Teva's, t-shirt and a pair of shorts.  Nothing else.  No ring.  No hat, no nothing, pull out $10.00 and say \"All I want to do is I want to buy beer in your pub for all of you guys until we give out the money.\"   \r\nIn any war torn people never bomb the beer factory.  Everybody wants a beer after a tough day of rape and pillage.  So the beer factorys always there.  They always bomb the glass factory.   \r\nSo you bought the beer for $1.00.  You returned it and got 95 cents back for the bottle.  So if you went to a little pub where they werent serving it in the bottle, they just pop the top and they pass the bottle and it goes around until its empty and then starts another one, $10.00 you could, you know, 30 people could drink all night long.   \r\nSo Id sit there with the chief and everybody, and wed sit there until 2:00 in the morning and then wed have this group of people lead me back to wherever I was and, you know, chief after chief after chief. Jason came down, my nephew came down, and I did that with him a few times and he ended up loving it so much he joined the Peace Corps and went to South Africa.  But Charles Taylor, who was an elected President, hadnt taken office yet, well actually when Jason was there he had.  Clinton called me and appointed me and I got an appointment for Jason to represent our country at Taylors inauguration, so we stayed there for four weeks. \r\nBut I go to see Taylor twice a week.  Hed go what are you doing down in this place, you know, I wouldnt go down there.  Theyll cut your throat and blah, blah, blah.  I said \"Well Im the only white person theyve ever met.  Theyre interested in knowing if it can rub off.  The only other white people they see has American flags on the front of their cars as they ride by, you know, with their guards and stuff.\"   \r\nBut that was great times.  I mean its all been good real interesting.  Ive gotten to do some stuff that nobody else would ever get to do, so. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You certainly have had a very interesting life. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Did you ever consider running for public office? \r\n \r\nCARTER:  I ran for city council in Plains and left that position to start campaigning for dad for President, so I was on the city council, but if you wanted to do basic opposition research on me it would take 30 minutes and Newsweek while dad was there, you know.  No matter what happened all the gossip columns, everything that came out, so it wouldnt take long.   \r\nFor instance, my wifes family they were Griffins from Hawkinsville.  Every year they went down to Port St. Joe and there was another family from Bainbridge and there was three families and brothers and sisters that would go with all their kids and I would go with them every year.  Well one year we hired a charter boat and we went out fishing and had a great time, came back.   \r\nThat night that charter boat was arrested going out to some mother ship and unloading marijuana onto it and running it into the shore.  Well I didnt know.  I remember the guys name now is King.  He got busted and the news was saying that I was involved and the Secret Service were trying to mess up the sting they had going and, you know, I had met the guy that day and we had gone fishing at the dock, you know.  Thats all I knew about it.  But you can just take that one thing and destroy me politically, so no I never thought about running because Ive had my life examined enough.     \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Jack ran. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  The only one that shouldnt have.  Yeah. Hes the worst politician in the family and - -  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  I remember reading - -  \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Much, much more conservative than me.  Much more of a libertarian.  Believes in live and let live as long as I can keep everything I got and the poor people cant get nothing, then I can destroy the environment as long as it doesnt affect my neighbors environment, but I can destroy everything that I own.  His solution for helping the environment in Nevada because of all the invasive grasses that have come in overseas was to put more cattle on it.  So it was difficult for me to be there to help him, and I would have voted for him but I would have held my nose.  I voted for Hamilton Jordan when he ran for the Senate even though he said that he would be honored to send his son to Nicaragua to fight the Sandinistas.  But I voted for him anyway.  Would have been the same with Jack.   \r\nBut Im pretty liberal.  I can do, you know, I dont normally do that stuff.  I spent four months volunteering for Dean.  Ive been for Obama for over a year, but because of dads - - because the Jewish community doesnt respect him right now as much I cant get involved in his campaign.  This is the first one Ive missed since I ran the third congressional district for McGovern in 72.   \r\nThats a good story.  72 the McGovern, dads for Scoop Jackson.  Im for McGovern.  Hes put in the first caucus ever and the only one in the state of Georgia, and he wrote no special rules meaning that he as a governor had to run in his home congressional district in order to be a delegate.   Well his district was my district and I was working for McGovern.  We had it in a gymnasium, Americus High gymnasium, and dad walked in and he had Stock Coleman and Freeman, his two state troopers.  Freemans now the head of Fulton County, Sheriff. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Sheriff of Fulton County. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Right.  But they were standing there and dad walked in the gymnasium and he stood under the basketball goal and he looked over at the Jackson - - everybody else but McGovern people had about 85 of them over there, and I had over 600 people there for McGovern.   \r\nAnd Im sitting on the top row and Im sitting there watching dads eyes go down each row trying to find me and finally gets to me and he points like this and does like this, and I come down and were walking to the bathroom and Stock and Freeman stand outside the bathroom and keep the door closed.  And dad says \"I need to be a delegate.\"  And Im saying \"You should have gotten some people here to support you, you know.\" \r\nAnyway, I was running as the head of the delegation from that district.  I had my name on there because I knew I was going to end up giving it up.  I gave it to dad in exchange for free round trip to the convention in Miami.  Got to work for McGovern.  I got to stay in and do the whole thing.  Dad paid for everything plus gave me floor passes and all that.  So that was my little coo.   \r\nAnd during that was when dad endorsed Jackson it was front page of the Atlanta Constitution above the fold.  Turn below the fold, me and Jay Frank Meyers from Americus endorse McGovern in the same newspaper.  So same front page. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  So youre an independent too. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Didnt get the front page very much. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Youre independent as well as having that great love for your father. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  I do have that great love and respect for my father.  He is the most caring, agape love of anybody I know.  If you dont have as much as him he loves you.  If he can do anything that will help you as a group, hell do it, without particularly in regard for money.  He doesnt care about money which is one of the gripes I have, being a potential inheritor.  But he, you know, everything that Carter, the Presidential retirement money, you know, those checks go directly to the Carter Center.  All of his speaking fees go directly to the Carter Center.  You know, most of his book stuff goes directly to the Carter Center.   \r\nSo he hasnt, you know, he doesnt care.  And I think thats what helped him be great after he got out of office because he didnt join those Boards, or Ford and other things like Jerry Ford did or the other presidents have when they get out.  And never cared about hanging around those glitzy ultra rich folks. \r\nSo when he comes at you, he comes at you with total honesty, and as a son you can sit there and say maybe he could have been a better father.  Maybe he could have spent more time with me.  I could have been higher priority.  Some of the things you have to work through in your own mind, but at the same time that he didnt do that he was doing it for everybody in the world.  So I have no complaints about it really. \r\nOf namesakes of Presidents I think theres 11 of us and six of them died before 30 of alcoholism or suicide.  So its a pretty difficult thing to live up to, and its taken me a lot of work and effort to get there because I cant be me.  Ive got to be his son.  Thats just how people look at you when they first meet you, so its very difficult.   I think that happens to a lot of different people, children of politicians, governors, that kind of stuff.  It happens to a lot of people, but hes been generous in including us and making us feel part of it.  Not making us feel like its a family business, but making us feel like were part of what happened and were part of that and thats been a big blessing, and being able to do all this other stuff is a huge blessing.  So you can sit there and look at it kind of both ways. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Great experience. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Great experience.  And Im exceedingly happy to have lived it.  And I wake up every morning and tell myself \"Todays going to be another great day,\" you know.  And I go through those days as a great day because its up to me to decide, not anybody else, and you cant let your expectations of your parents or control how you live.  You cant let dads political views or somebody not liking you like that.  If everybody liked you, you hadnt done anything.  So you got to have pretty thick skin and just tell yourself everyday its going to be a great day. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Chip, we greatly appreciate you being with us. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Well thank you very much.  Thank you.  Its been my honor. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Its been my pleasure talking to you. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  Its my honor.  Youve been a friend and respected ally since I was a teenager. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Thats right. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  And its my honor to be here and Im really just appreciate you calling and asking because anything I can ever do for you Ill do it. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well I... \r\nCARTER:  Any time, any place. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  ...appreciate that.  And that goes for me too. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  I know that. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Okay. \r\n \r\nCARTER:  I know that.  And Ill talk to my parents on Wednesday about maybe trying to do something. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Please do.  Please do.   \r\n[END OF RECORDING] \r\n \r\n       "},{"id":"gych_rogp_031","title":"Richard Guthman, 22 May 2008.","collection_id":"gych_rogp","collection_title":"Reflections on Georgia Politics oral history collection, 2006-2010","dcterms_contributor":["Short, Bob, 1932-"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, Georgia, 32.75042, -83.50018"],"dcterms_creator":["Guthman, Richard, 1934","Short, Bob, 1932"],"dc_date":["2008-05-22"],"dcterms_description":["In this interview Guthman discusses his experience working on the Atlanta City Council beginning in 1973. He addresses his activities as chair of the Finance Committee and the Development Committee while working with Mayors Sam Massell, Maynard Jackson, and Andrew Young. Guthman's discussion covers a wide range of developments in Atlanta, including the creation of MARTA, Highway 400, the growth of Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport, the 1996 Summer Olympics, and a growing business community. He also remarks on race relations in Atlanta and its suburbs and the role of race in the political sphere. Finally, Guthman shares his political philosophy as a self-described fiscal conservative and social moderate, and discusses the changes in the party makeup of Georgia.","Finding aid available in repository.","Interviewed by Bob Short.","Richard Guthman was born in Atlanta, Georgia. He attended Cornell for two years and graduated from Georgia Tech in 1956 with a degree in industrial engineering. He served in the U.S. Army. Guthman became interested in various civic organizations, including chairing the Police Committee. In 1966, as a Republican, he ran an unsuccessful campaign for a seat in Congress. Upon his narrow defeat, he was elected chairman of the Fulton County Republican Party. In 1973, he ran for a position on the Atlanta City Council, representing District Eight. On the city council, he maintained his platform as a fiscal conservative and social moderate, serving under Atlanta's first African-American mayor, Maynard Jackson. He was chair of the Development Committee, and oversaw developments in MARTA, the Downtown Connector, and Highway 400. He served on the Atlanta City Council until 1988."],"dc_format":["video/mp4"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection","http://sclfind.libs.uga.edu/sclfind/view?docId=ead/RBRL220ROGP.xml"],"dcterms_subject":["Metropolitan Atlanta Rapid Transit Authority","Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport","Olympic Games--1996 :--Atlanta, Ga.)","Olympic Games","City council members--Georgia--Atlanta","Political parties--Georgia","City council members","Political parties","Politics and government","Race relations","Atlanta (Ga.)--Race relations","Atlanta (Ga.)--Politics and government","Georgia","Georgia--Atlanta"],"dcterms_title":["Richard Guthman, 22 May 2008."],"dcterms_type":["MovingImage"],"dcterms_provenance":["Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-031/ohms"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection, ROGP 031, Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Libraries, Athens, Georgia, 30602-1641."],"dlg_local_right":["Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule."],"dcterms_medium":["oral histories (literary works)","interviews"],"dcterms_extent":["1 interview (105 min.) : sd., col."],"dlg_subject_personal":["Jackson, Maynard, 1938-2003","Guthman, Richard, 1934-","Massell, Sam","Young, Andrew, 1932-"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":"Richard Guthman interviewed by Bob Short \r\n2008 May 22 \r\nHiawassee, GA \r\nReflections on Georgia Politics \r\nROGP-031 \r\nOriginal: video, 105 minutes \r\n \r\nsponsored by: \r\nRichard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies \r\nUniversity of Georgia Libraries \r\nand \r\nYoung Harris College \r\n \r\nDate of Transcription:  September 20, 2009 \r\n \r\nBOB SHORT:  Hello.  Im Bob Short and this is Reflections on Georgia Politics.  Its May 22, 2008, and our guest today is Richard Guthman, long-time member of the Atlanta City Council and a long-time active member of the Georgia Republican Party.  Richard, were honored to have you on our program today.   \r\n \r\nRICHARD GUTHMAN:  Bob, Im honored that you have come to my house on Lake Chatuge in Towns County, the home of Zell Miller.  And its just a pleasure to welcome you here. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, before we get into your political career, Richard, tell us about yourself and how you became interested in politics. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Im a native Atlantan, born at the old Piedmont Hospital over where the old Atlanta Stadium used to be  in right field, I think.  I went to public school in Atlanta.  After graduating from Grady High, I went off to Cornell for two years.  My father thought it would be a good idea if I saw some other part of the country, and Cornell did have and still does a very fine engineering school.  I was there for two years, decided the weather was too cold, and came back home and entered Georgia Tech where I received my degree in industrial engineering in 1956.  I worked for Montag Brothers, the old Blue Horse School Supply people, for a number of years.  My father had been there ever since he graduated from Georgia Tech.   \r\nI spent two years in the Army in Philadelphia, came back, and proceeded in my career.  I got interested in several civic activities, the Visiting Nurse Association being the most prominent one.  I was also selected to serve on a Fulton County Grand Jury one time.  I think I was the youngest person ever to have achieved that honor.  And I got interested in the police activities.  I chaired the Police Committee and I used to ride with the police on Friday nights and all that great, exciting stuff.  But it created within me an interest in what was going on in government and in the City of Atlanta and Fulton County.  And one thing led to another and I became active in the Republican Party of Fulton County, was elected Chairman of the Fulton County Party in 1971, and stayed in that position until I ran for the City Council in 1973.   \r\nPrior to that, however, in 1966, I got talked into running for the State Legislature as a Republican in Fulton County, which was  it was a countywide race.  There was only one  well, actually, only two other Republican elected officials in Fulton County at that time:  Richard Freeman, who later was a judge (he was on the Board of Aldermen); and Rodney Cook, who was on the Board of Aldermen.  Both of them were very helpful to me and very, very fine people, and that was my introduction actually into elected office. \r\nAfter I lost the election  by a very small margin  I stayed active in the Republican Party and, as I said earlier, became Chairman.  And then when the City Council  or when the State  changed the Charter of the City of Atlanta allowing for district elections, I decided that I would run for District 8, which was basically northwest Atlanta.  And with the help of a lot of volunteers, it was a five  it was nonpartisan.  It was a five-person race.  Everett Millikin, who had been a member of the Board of Aldermen, who was very instrumental in getting the Charter changed and was my main opponent, and we had a runoff and I beat him rather soundly.   \r\nAn interesting thing, which is sort of apropos of todays politics with McCain, is that I was young, in my 30s.  Everett Millikin was older, probably at least in his 60s at that time.  But I made a decided effort that I would never ever mention his name  not his name, but his age.  I also was told, Dont ever mention his name, because that was advertising free for him, so I used to call him my opponent.  We were on a WADE debate, just the two of us, and he pulled out during this debate this brochure that I had distributed which essentially said that Ill be around to run in 1977 and four years after that and four years after that and four years after that.  And he said, Its not right that you should call me old.  And I looked at him and I said, Mr. Millikin, Ive never said a word about your age.  Youre the one who said youre old.  [Laughter]  And so, as I said, I won big  by 57 percent of the vote  which was pretty healthy.  One of my key advisors at the time said to me, Richard, with that majority in your district, youll never have any opposition in future elections.  And he was right.  I had three reelections and never had any opposition in any of those elections, and I went on Council in January of 1974. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  If you dont mind, let me ask you this question.  How would you define your political philosophy? \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Well, I guess basically its less government in general.  I really believe in individual freedom.  I believe the government has a strong responsibility to protect the public health, public safety and, obviously, defense of the country, and to maintain a stable financial environment.  But to get involved in the nitty-gritty of daily life, I just think government ought to stay out of that and I guess thats why Im a Republican.  I am probably  I am  fiscally conservative, I am socially moderate, and I think that the American people have enough sense to know what to do and, where things cannot be accomplished by people and its necessary, then government should play a role -- primarily I think as a facilitator. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  So in 1974 after defeating Mr. Millikin, you went down to the City Hall... \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Correct. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  ...with a brand new set of City Councilpersons. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Thats correct.  We had  this was the first time, because of the individual district, there were 18 members of Council.  Six ran at large, had to live in the district in which they were running, but they ran at large.  Six  12  ran in individual districts, and that allowed for a racially equal split on Council.  There were nine whites, nine blacks.  The President of the Council  or the Vice Mayor  was white.  The Mayor Maynard Jackson was black.  So we were as racially equal as could be, and it represented basically the demographics of Atlanta. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Uh-huh.  Richard, theres one thing Ive always admired about you and that was your ability to work across party and racial lines while you were a member of the City Council.   \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Well, the idea of being in government is to get something accomplished.  If you cant work with other members of the legislative body, then youre not going to get anything accomplished.  And the City  running a city or a local government  theres very little partisan politics or partisan philosophy, frankly, that gets involved.  Sewers are not political.  Traffic is not political (or shouldnt be).  So my challenge was to work with people who had  who came from  a different background than I came from, who had different interests than I did, but to understand their points of view and to respect those even if I disagreed with them.   \r\nOne of the lessons I learned early was taught to me by Q. V. Williamson, who had been a member of the Board of Aldermen for a number of years, a tower in the black community, in government particularly, and he told me, he said, Richard, you can disagree vehemently and passionately with an issue, but let it be on the issue and not on the personality.  And people have found it difficult how I could disagree with somebody so passionately on a particular issue and, after the vote, could go over and put my arms around them and wed go out and have a beer after the session.  But thats the way it is.  Politics today, unfortunately, has gotten very personal and people arent friends with each other anymore and that, I think, has gone a long way to create the animosity and the divisiveness that we see in government today. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  The Mayor was Maynard Jackson, newly elected.  Went into office, new City Council.  Was government at that point in turmoil? \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Government was not in turmoil.  It may have seemed as though it was in turmoil because the City, by and large, had a very good underlying bureaucracy that knew how to get things done, how to get the nuts and bolts of running a government:  paving the streets, fixing the water lines, making sure the traffic lights worked, policing.  What made this new government somewhat difficult was it changed the method of governing from what had been a strong aldermanic/weak mayor system to a strong mayor/council system.  No longer were the committees of Council responsible for the departments in government.  The Mayor, that was his responsibility.   \r\nThe only caveat to that was the Finance Department had a split, dual reporting responsibility.  It reported both to Council as well as to the Mayor.  That made for some interesting situations in legislation and in philosophy later on, but the Legislature had seen to it that the Charter  it was a strong Charter; it had some very strong language about the Citys finances, which prevented the City from having any operating debt.  It could have bond indebtedness but through a referendum, but it could not have  it had to have a balanced budget every time.  And so if the proposed budget was not in balance, then you had to have a couple of things take place.  You either had to reduce the budget, raise the revenue (which generally meant raising taxes), or a combination.  But we had to have a budget, it had to be balanced, and it had to be approved by the, I believe it was the third Monday in March of every year.  \r\nThere were a lot of disagreements between members of Council and the Mayor.  Maynard Jackson was a strong individual, a very articulate individual, a person whom it was very easy to be friends with.  He had a strong personality, a great and engaging personality.  Could speak several languages fluently.  But he had his opinions and his strongest opinions had to do with what he envisioned was control of a number of activities which heretofore had been legislatively controlled.  Appointments to the Zoning Board, as an example.  He also was very, very strong on the minority participation in contracts and that led to a lot of disagreements over time, but his principle was right.  His tactics sometimes were irritating.  He did not get along well with the business community, which he could have but he didnt.  That was just his way.  So a lot of things that happened, happened much more difficult to get done than they could have gotten done. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  One of the things that sticks in my mind was a personnel matter that occurred shortly after he took office, and that involved the Chief of Police. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  John Inman was the Chief of Police.  He had been appointed by Sam Massell in Sam Massells previous administration, but he had an unusual situation.  He had an eight-year contract.  Most department heads had four-year contracts.  And I dont know why he had an eight-year; I was not involved at the time.  And Maynard Jackson tried to move John Inman out, but he couldnt because of this contract.  So what he did was, in essence, he created a Department of Public Safety, the Police Department became a bureau, and the Fire Department became a bureau under the Department of Public Safety, and the Commissioner of Public Safety was Reginald Eaves, and so that  who, in effect, became the Police Chief.  And John Inman just stayed on, occupied his position, but really didnt have any influence in the running of the Police Department after that. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You always impressed me as a public servant who is forever brimming with new ideas on how Atlanta could improve its government.  Youve made a lot of solid suggestions that were adopted and maybe a few that werent.  \r\n \r\n [Laughter]   \r\n \r\nSHORT: But are you satisfied with your successes? \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Well, I never kept score as to a success or a defeat.  My major accomplishments I think occurred in the financial arena.  I became Chair of the Finance Committee and served in that position for a number of years and was not very popular in that position because there were a lot of things that the City was asked to do that I thought  and others thought  that were against what the City Charter said we could do.  The City of Atlanta, interestingly enough, at that time (and I dont know what the Charter now says) could not engage in social services and could only do the nuts and bolts:  police, fire, pick up the garbage, keep the water running, run the parks, pave the streets, traffic control.  It had no control and no interest  or I say no interest; no influence or no oversight on  Grady Hospital.   \r\nWe had in our budget, and had been for a number of years, eight childcare facilities that I dont know how they got into the budget, but they were.  And we continued to fund those via a contract.  Anybody that got money from the City that wasnt a part of the City  wasnt a City service or a City department  had to have a contract with the City to provide services, whatever they might be.  And so the City paid for services of eight childcare centers primarily in the black community.  And it also had a contract with the Woodruff Arts Center to provide services of the Atlanta Symphony and other activities of the Woodruff Arts Center for schoolchildren.  And I was a stickler about that.  I never will forget one instance in which Daddy King  Martin Luther King, Sr.  came before the Finance Committee and he was advocating funding for another daycare center, and I said, Reverend King, Im sorry, but Im just not going to support that because of our setup and our financial condition.  And he looked at me straight in the eye and he shook a finger in my face and he says, Guthman, you are a racist.  And I said, Well, I dont think thats got anything to do with it, but nonetheless, and it did not get included.  But that was sort of a defining moment for me.  Id never had anybody shake their finger in my face before then [chuckling] and accuse me of being  of being racist.   \r\nThere were some interesting things.  We had this minority participation that had to happen.  When I chaired the Development Committee my first year in office, we were debating the development around MARTA stations, and the station that was involved was on the west side of town, the furtherest(sic) station out.  And we were describing the land use plan for that what kind of things, and one member of Council said  of the Committee  said, Well, the people that can develop this, we should limit that to only minorities.  And I understood why he was saying it, because it was in that part of town.  And so I [chuckling] adding or wanting to add a little levity to the situation, which was my  I always wanted to do that; I used to like to poke fun at myself, not at the responsibility but myself  because people couldnt laugh.  They couldnt, you know, they couldnt enjoy what they were doing.  So I said, I said, Well, that means that I can have a contract.  And they all looked at me like I was sort of nuts and they said, What do you mean by that?  I said, Well, you said only minorities and Im certainly a minority on Council.  Im white.  Ive been accused of coming from an affluent district.  Im short.  Im redhead.  Im Jewish.  I said, Thats about as minority as you can be, so I ought to be able to get a contract.  And they looked at me in all seriousness and said, Well, thats not the way its defined in the Congressional Record as a minority.  And I said, Okay.  [Laughing] \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Speaking of levity, I remember hearing you speak once  it might have been to the Buckhead Association  when you referred to your colleagues as the kitty council.  Was that  was that a joke or was that just a Freudian slip? \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Well, maybe both.  [Laughter]  We were, you know, we were new essentially, and we would squabble like children do but not anywhere near as bad as what its come to now.  So while I dont remember that particular remark, its very possible that I said it. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Lets talk for a minute about MARTA.  MARTA really got into being while you were a member of the City Council.  Tell us about the development of MARTA. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Well, MARTA actually started prior to that, and I think the first referendum was in 69 or 70, something in that date, and it was defeated rather roundly.  And there are several reasons for that (which are unimportant).  It was revived again in, I think, was it 71 or 72?  And I was appointed a Vice Chair of the Committee to have a successful referendum.  Emmet Bondurant, a very fine attorney in Atlanta, a good friend, and Andrew Young were Chairs of the Committee.  I was a Vice Chair.  My responsibility was basically to get the referendum passed from North Avenue north to the City limits.  That was my responsibility.  And that part of the City did; it voted in favor of MARTA.  I went out night after night  it was a political campaign  giving speeches to small groups about MARTA and what it would do, etc.  And it became the referendum passed. \r\nOur first activities as far as a Council was to condemn land.  MARTA would ask us to condemn certain pieces of land.  If we couldnt get it done voluntarily, we used the eminent domain process.  We then got involved in the station area planning, which I mentioned earlier.  And, beyond that, we were really  we, the Council  if people didnt like what MARTA was doing or if the bulldozers made too much noise or whatever it was, people would complain to us.  We were the elected officials.  We had no responsibility.  MARTA was an authority, which a lot of people dont like for the simple reason that it has no elected responsibility.  So we took a lot of heat from the construction of MARTA.  But that was fine.  That was all fair game.  By and large, the City Council was in favor of what MARTA wanted to do. \r\nThe key to the, I think, to the success of that referendum was at the very last moment almost, Sam Massell, who was Mayor at the time, he proposed that MARTA have a 15 cent fare across the board from the furtherest(sic) point; made no difference how far you traveled.  And that 15 cents was going to last for a number of years.  And I think that was really what swung the vote, and I give Sam a lot of credit for understanding really the psychology necessary to succeed with that referendum. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, as you look back on MARTA today, do you think that it would have been much more effective if Cobb County and Gwinnett County and Clayton County had opted in instead of refusing to join? \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Absolutely.  Absolutely.  And certainly the growth of the metropolitan area that has taken place since that time demonstrates the need for that.  All you have to do is look at I-75, look at I-85/75 in the south, look at going east and going west.  Well, not so much west then, but certainly now.  Had those counties participated, it wouldve been a much better system and it would have encompassed  because both Cobb County now and Gwinnett County now run their own rapid transit buses, if you will, into Atlanta to hook up to MARTA stations.  Its a shame that that didnt happen and, obviously, most people understand the reason for that:  it was race.  Pure and simple, it was race.  It was not economies.  The people in those counties would not have objected to the 1 percent sales tax.  They all have that now.  But it was purely a matter of race.  They thought that if they became part of the MARTA system, it would bring blacks into their essentially all-white counties. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  While were on the subject of transportation, let me ask you this question.  Do you think it was wise to funnel traffic from two major interstate highways directly through the center of Atlanta on what is now known as the Downtown Connector? \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  If there could have been a better solution to that, it may have been wise to do it.  But remember there was already an Atlanta Expressway.  It didnt go very far, but it came  it was essentially what is now known as the Downtown Connector.  It split the City in two  east and west.  That was a major mistake because it stayed divided for many, many years.  Just relatively in the last 8 to 10 years has that gap really been bridged, both literally and figuratively.  That route was there; to do it otherwise would have put in more  two other  roads probably through the City.  285 took some of that traffic off from a traffic point of view.  If youre coming in from the north and you want to get out on the south and have no business in the City, you would take  you take  285, as trucks are supposed or are required.  That was something, by the way, that the Council got the Department of Transportation to put that rule in where through trucks could not drive through the Downtown Connector.  They had to  their bills of lading had to  show a delivery or a pickup in the City in order to do that.  Thats why the trucks go around now and not through. \r\nFrom a planning point of view, probably should have  maybe should have  been done a different way.  But planning by textbook and planning by practicality are two different things.  The practical aspect of it was Atlanta already had a Downtown Connector built prior to the interstate system.  So it was only natural that that take place.  It has certain advantages where you have three interstates that intersect at essentially the State Capitol area.  Thats unique.  It brings a lot of things into the City which otherwise may not have come, would have bypassed the City, and youve got to remember that Atlanta was formed  was born  as a transportation center and a hub, and the interstate system has maintained that for better or for worse. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Tell us about 400. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  [Laughing]  400 had been  or the extension of 400 through the City had been  on the planning books for years.  When Jimmy Carter was President and 400 was planned to come through the City, through the Morningside/Rock Springs area, and go south and link up with 285 in the south.  When Jimmy Carter was Governor, he, by Executive Order or whatever, axed that plan.  So 400 came to 285 essentially and stopped.  Later, it was proposed to come south and go down to, I dont know, just, you know, south of North Avenue somewhere in that area and the MARTA plan showed that with a busway in it.  And it stayed on the books.  And then the State proposed the extension of 400 as a toll road, probably the first toll road other than the bridge going over to Jekyll Island, that the State has.  I think its still the only toll road.  Anyway, I was Chairman of the Transportation Committee, which played a very pivotal role in getting that approved.  It was hotly opposed by all the neighborhood groups.  It was coming through north Atlanta, through the Ivy Road area in there, but it had a lot of sense in that it would connect a growing part of the northern metro area to the City and allow people in the City to get to that northern area where there was not any practical way to get to it.  And I took on the task of getting that through Council.  I had a lot of angry calls about that because a lot of my strong supporters were opposed to any new road.   \r\nI went to Commissioner Moreland  Tom Moreland  with the Department of Transportation, who was pushing the road, obviously, and said, Ill support it if, and this was a big if, the plans for MARTA change instead of from a busway to a rail line.  Well, that took a lot of talking and a lot of doing.  MARTA agreed to it and finally Tom Moreland agreed to it.  So a rail line was proposed.  I went to work to support that, and I think we won by about maybe one or two votes on Council.  And now while some people say its a headache, if you look at it every day, the traffic on 400 is just amazing.  It opens up the south to the north part and likewise opens up the north to the south part.  I dont know how many thousands of cars go through there every day.  And the toll road was eminently successful; in fact, so successful that I think the State a few years ago was trying to use some of that money for purposes other than what it was originally designed for. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Atlanta's Mayors played musical chairs for several years there.  Mayor Jackson was in office for eight years and he was succeeded by Andrew Young.  Lets talk a little bit about Andrew Young.  You served with him.  What kind of a Mayor was he? \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Andy Young was an exceptionally good Mayor.  His personality was terrific.  He worked well with the business community.  He knew how to take two opposing sides who were daggers-in with each other and sort of bring them together.  He used to start off with a meeting when you had these opposites ready to do mortal combat, and hed put his hands together and hed say, Now lets pray about this.  And he had that kind of personality.  You could disagree with Andy, but you could never dislike Andy.  He was one of the few that you just could not dislike, so it was a pleasure working with Andy.  He had vision  he truly had vision  of what he saw Atlantas potential to be:  an international city.   \r\nHe was obviously instrumental in getting the Olympics here in 1996.  In fact, I think the two most influential people that got Atlanta the Olympics, in addition to the idea of Billy Paynes, was Andy Young because he was able to really secure the votes from the African countries and Pat Crecine, who was at the time President of Georgia Tech, and he designed or had designed  it was his vision  a virtual tour (we think nothing of that today, but that didnt exist back then) a virtual tour of what the Georgia Tech campus would look like as an Olympic village, what the venues would look like, what the housing would look like, and that was part of  that became part of  the presentation.  And that was  no one had done that before.  That was the first time that that had ever been done.  Today, no one gives that kind of presentation a thought, but it was Pat Crecine who came up with that.  And the Olympics, while some people thought it might have been disruptive to the City, in the long run the Olympics did more to put Atlanta on the map internationally and nationally than any other activity, I think.  And Andy had a lot to do with that. \r\nAndy was interested in trade and he just knew how to deal with people and how to get that.  He was  I cant remember any significant issue that came before Council where, at least from my perspective, I had any violent disagreement with Andy.  He was  he was receptive to people with alternative ideas of how to accomplish something, and thats important.  The Mayor is the mayor.  The Mayor is the chief executive officer.  But a CEO who doesnt want to get ideas from other people is not likely to be a successful CEO.  Andy was successful. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Richard, you were there for what, 14 years? \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  14 years. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  What sort of turnover did you have in the Council during that period. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Well, initially, we were six  I mean, we were nine and nine:  nine white, nine black.  In the next election in 1977, as I recall, that ratio changed and it became majority black because some of the white members of Council who were there got elected in 1973 and were holdovers from the old Board of Aldermen.  And they had  they had been there for a long time and their age caught up with them and they retired.  And so they, a lot of them, lived in areas which had become black, and so thats what  thats what changed.  And when I left, I believe (and my memory sometimes is not always that clear) but I think we had gotten to where there were probably 12 black and six white. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Uh-huh.  Who were some of the leaders on the Council back then? \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Well, Ive already mentioned Q. V. Williamson who was a strong leader.  Marvin Arrington was a leader.  He later became Council President when Wyche Fowler went on to Congress.  Ira Jackson was a leader.  Panky Bradley[ph], who succeeded Nick Lambros.  She was, she was a leader.  Buddy Fowlkes.  They were strong leaders and they were  they did their part well on Council. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  In the history of Atlantas growth, one of the outstanding things has been the Atlanta Airport. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  I think we all have Bill Hartsfield to thank for that.  He had the vision to see an old dirt racetrack into the leading, busiest airport in the world.  One of the first things that was before Maynard Jackson in 1974 was the development or redevelopment or expansion of the airport essentially as we know it today.  He put George Berry in charge of getting that done.  George, as so many people will know, is from Blairsville, a graduate of Young Harris College.  And he, George, is an amazing public servant and he sort of shepherded that thing.  There were a lot of debates because this was when the minority business participation was at its beginning and there was a lot of controversy.  What constituted a minority business?  How much of a companys business is supposed to be minority in order to qualify as a minority?  The courts had ruled that you couldnt set a specific percentage, but somehow or another the accepted figure was that a majority contractor had to have at least a 25 percent minority participation.  Some of those were very legitimate, Herman Russell being a good example of that.  Others were shams and that got pointed out later. \r\nBut the key about that development, more than anything else, was it came in on time and under budget for the building of the four runways and the big terminal facility.   \r\nOne of the things that comes to mind about that is that I was Chairman of the Finance Committee during this construction.  Ira Jackson was Chairman of the Transportation Committee at that time.  We came within a couple of months of the opening of the airport and Maynard had not agreed to contracts with the rental car companies because they did not have minority participation.  Well, it was pretty hard for the City of Atlanta to dictate to Hertz and to Avis and some of the national car rental people what their structure ought to be.  We certainly bought automobiles from companies who  GM, Ford  didnt have that kind of thing, but Maynard was insistent upon this.  So Ira Jackson and I, on our own, we went to see some of the legal representatives locally of the rental car companies.  And we talked with them and we finally agreed on a solution that the minority participation could be variable.  It could be different things.  They might buy their cars from a minority-owned automobile dealership locally.  That was one way of having minority participation.  They might buy their supplies from a minority-owned company locally.  So we worked out a deal, in essence, and Maynard almost at the last moment before the opening ceremony agreed to that, and thats how the airport opened with the rental cars in place.  Otherwise, it wouldve opened without any rental cars.  Well, you can imagine what disaster that would have been. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, there have been continuing questions over the awards of business licenses to vendors at the airport.  Does the Council approve those or are those chosen by the Mayor? \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  What the Council did at the very beginning was create a master vendor contract, and it was up to the master vendor to select his subcontractors, the individual.  And that worked fairly well for a while because the Council didnt  rightly so  didnt want to be involved in having to approve and make contracts with individual companies.  I mean, you know, there are hundreds of vendors at the airport and to have to get involved in each one of those would have been a nightmare beyond all nightmares.  So we had a master contract.  That worked well for a while.  Then some of the subcontractors started complaining that the rent they were paying was too high and they couldnt  they wanted their rent lowered, and we had to hear a lot of those.  And when I would ask the subcontractor, Can we examine your books?  I mean, youre telling us, as the members of Council, that youre not making any money, but while you might not be, if were going to make some changes, we have to at least examine your books.  And almost to an individual, they said, No.  you cant examine our books.  Well, that said to me that if they dont want  if their books cant stand  an audit by the City, the agency or the group that theyre asking to do something about it, then I didnt have a whole lot of respect for their dire  alleged dire  needs. \r\nOne example, without getting into details, was involving a vendor who sold ice cream.  And I suggested to the vendor that, I can buy ice cream  your cone of ice cream  at the airport cheaper than I can buy it from Baskin \u0026 Robbins.  And I said, That doesnt make any sense to me.  Youre the only selling ice cream at the airport.  If you need more revenue, why dont you raise the price of your ice cream cones?  That, to me, was how supply and demand works anyway.  [Chuckling] \r\n \r\nSHORT:  For a while there, Atlanta went through a serious time of urban flight.  It seems now that the suburbans are moving back to town.  What sort of pressure is that going to put on the future of the City government in Atlanta? \r\nGUTHMAN:  Well, the pressures will be the same.  Even if there were people who didnt live in  who didnt sleep in  Atlanta, they spent their day in Atlanta, so the needs to have all the infrastructure were just as great.  But I think its an interesting development which is happening about the in-flight now rather than the  or the inward movement rather than the  out-flight.  Most people left Atlanta, I think, because for a couple of reasons.  One, they could move to the outer counties and their taxes were lower.  They still are lower.  Atlanta has a high tax rate compared to the surrounding counties.   But a lot of it was racial.  They were afraid of a black City government.  They were afraid of black neighbors.  They were afraid of a black school system.  So it was easier just to move out and commute back in. \r\nWell, several things have happened since that time.  The City has survived and has prospered with essentially a black government, with essentially black neighbors, with essentially a black school system.  It could be better, but everything could be better.  Just because its black doesnt mean its going to be worse.  In fact, quite the contrary in a lot of situations.  But in the neighborhood that I used to live in, in northwest Atlanta, Buckhead  Buckhead has a high (not as high as the southwest side of town, obviously) but has a number of black families living, working in Buckhead.  And whats happened is that the economics of things have developed in such a way that I always said that green was the most powerful color  not whether you were white or whether you were black, but green, meaning your economic status.  And the black, middle upper class now has really developed into a very strong influential part of the City.   \r\nPlus, the transportation problem.  If youre going to get stuck on 75 or 85 in either direction, north or south, for several hours trying to commute, particularly when the price of gasoline keeps going up, youre going to want to live where you can walk to your job or where you can hop on a MARTA train or bus and get to your work.   \r\nSo there have been a lot of things that have influenced, that have done that.  And that has been a good thing because a lot of the areas that had gone down, deteriorated  Midtown being a tremendous example of that  has now had a huge rebirth.  Just drive  just drive in Midtown and see all the construction cranes, and most of these are combination condo buildings/hotel/office buildings.  A whole new concept for Atlanta. \r\nBuckhead has had a tremendous growth lately.  And you drive down Peachtree now in Buckhead, in the very heart of Buckhead between Paces Ferry and Pharr Road, there is this gigantic hole in the ground where a huge development is coming up out of the ground.  Condo, office, hotel and shops.  I mean, thats just a marvelous combination. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Vertically.   \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Vertically. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Vertically. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  [Indiscernible] \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  There is no more room.  The square foot is so expensive that you have to go up. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Richard, some say a billion, some say more, but there seems to be a high price tag on repairing Atlantas infrastructure. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  And it is.  It is a high price tag.  One of the  in my second year, second or third year on Council  I chaired the Public Utilities Committee which had the responsibility of infrastructure.  And, at that time, I identified conservatively about $800,000 worth of repairs needed to bridges and storm sewers.  $800,000.  That was probably in 1975 or 6.  Today, were talking billions of dollars.  At the time, no one wanted to talk about fixing a bridge or fixing a sewer line.  Couldnt see it.  Couldnt get your hands around it.  You couldnt feel it and people didnt  it was not politically expedient to want to deal with it.  But it was an absolute necessity. Nobody, even Maynard, didnt want to hear about it.  He just did not want to talk about it.  In his second term  I mean, when he came back as Mayor after Andys two terms were up  one of the first things he faced was doing infrastructure.  So it got more expensive and will continue to be expensive.  When you consider that some of the water mains that the City had, and may still have, were made of wood because they were put down that long ago.   \r\nFive Points was a big artesian well.  Right where the intersection of Five Points is was a huge, big well.  Thats where the Atlanta water supply came from at the beginning of Atlantas history and wooden aqueducts underground, and some water may still travel in those wooden pipes. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  So, by and large, you think Atlanta city governments in good shape? \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  No.  No, I think its got some very challenging opportunities ahead of it.  Its financial situation is  Ive seen it in the paper called a crisis.  Im not sure what a crisis is.  Maybe a crisis is what causes somebody to act.  But Atlanta has got to get a better handle on what its doing.  Its got to become more efficient as any company or any operation has to become.  That isnt always easy when youre dealing with the public sector.  Its constituents in the City, the citizens, the taxpayers demand services, frequently want more than theyre willing to pay for.  Thats been the history of government forever.  So its a continuing challenge to keep meeting these.   \r\nWe have too many local governments, and the act of the Legislature a couple of years ago that allowed more local governments to be created I think was a mistake.  I know my friends in Sandy Springs dont feel that way because they were seeking a City of Sandy Springs for years.  I always opposed that because I said youre just duplicating high level positions.  The problem that occurred was that you didnt have the response to the local citizenry.  Didnt know how to reach down to the local citizenry.  And to hear their problems and to be able to explain what you were going to do, thatll always be a challenge.  The Legislature has made that decision.  Thats now history.  Weve got more local governments.  There needs to be a way for local governments to come together and agree on services that are common to the area at large and agree to have a way that you dont have to have so many individuals at an executive level to provide those services.  The Georgia Municipal Association a number of years ago suggested ways of doing that.  The Legislature even encouraged that some years ago.  I think when either Joe Frank Harris or George Busbee were Governor. \r\nSo this is a constant battle, but the City of Atlanta for its size, for its diversity is still a damn good city and will continue to be.  Its got all the things that a city needs.  If you take a look at other cities, theyre generally bounded by some geographical barrier.  Atlanta is not bounded by any barrier.  It can expand in all directions and, in essence, it has.  It may not be called the City of Atlanta, but if you fly over Atlanta  lets say youre going south to Macon  theres not much area between where its heavily populated and Macon where youve got any land left.  Driving up 400, you cant see whats happening on the side of the road because of the trees.  And 575, the same thing.  Yet, tremendous amount of land now being developed, and it wouldnt be developed if it were not for the City of Atlanta. \r\nDevelopment is not good.  Im living here in an almost pristine area and I love it.  I dont want anything.  There have to be some areas left where it can be sort of untouched.  But when youre in the middle of this big maze, youve got to provide for the people.  The people keep coming in.  I havent seen any figure that says that the population of greater Atlanta or the metropolitan area is decreasing.  To the contrary, it continues to increase every year.  Were no longer  Atlanta is no longer  a sleepy town.   \r\nSome would say that Hiawassee, Georgia, right here on beautiful Lake Chatuge, is no longer a little sleepy town.  When I first came up here for the weekend 22 years ago, there were no traffic lights.  Now we have five.  I mean, thats huge, huge urbanization in our way of thinking.  But I have one person to thank for getting me here:  Zell Miller.  When I used to have interface with Zell on governmental matters or whatever it was when he was Lieutenant Governor and I was on Council, he used to always talk about the beauty of Towns County.  I never knew where Towns County was.  I finally came through Towns County and said, Hes right.  [Laughter] \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, Richard, you mentioned the City of Sandy Springs.  Theres also Johns Creek, is it? \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Yeah, Johns Creek is   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  --is a new city. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  The City of Milton in north Fulton County is a city.  Now Dunwoody wants to be a city. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Wants to be a city. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  What is that going to do to Fulton County? \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Well, Fulton County will still collect its revenues, and some of those are outside of Fulton County.  Dunwoody is DeKalb County.  But Fulton County still has responsibility  and a huge responsibility  fo \r\nr Grady Hospital.  I mean, thats a whole nother matter, and Im not equipped to even begin to talk about that.  And so Fulton County still operates the school system in essentially all of these new small cities that have come about that you mentioned, so they still have the schools to do.  They still have the public health to be concerned with.  But whats going to happen is its going to remove from Fulton County their responsibilities for a lot of zoning and things of that nature.  And some would say thats good; some would say thats bad.  Its going to see how it all works. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Do we have too many counties in Georgia? \r\nGUTHMAN:  Absolutely, 159, more than any other state in the Union.  Each county has a sheriff.  Each county has its own commissioners.  Counties have begun to consolidate certain functions  some successfully, some not so successfully.  Here in Towns County, we cooperated with Union County for a jail for a long time.  For whatever reason, that cooperation ended a couple of years ago and now Towns County has its own jail; Union County has its own jail.  We dont need two jails for these relatively small counties.  There are a lot of things that could be, but, in politics when you create a job, its very hard to get rid of that job no matter what the reason. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  So you dont think that therell ever be a county consolidation? \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Never is a long time.  The only  the most recent county consolidation occurred when Milton County and Campbell County  Milton in the north, Campbell in the south  went bankrupt and became part of Fulton County.  Now there are some living in north Fulton County which was the old Milton County who want to reestablish Milton County.  I dont agree with that. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Richard, for a hundred years in Georgia, in order to be successful in politics, you had to be a Democrat.  Why are you a Republican? \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Well, let me answer that by first relating a story, an occasion that I had with Bert Lance on that very same subject.  I was attending some social event  a political social event  which I was probably one of the few, if any, maybe the sole Republican there.  And Bert came up to me, and Im not very tall in stature, as you know (and politically correct, Im heightened disadvantaged or something like that).  In any event, Bert puts his arms around me, just about suffocated me being this big bear, and he said, Richard, he said, you would go far in politics if you were a Democrat.  And so I dont know what Bert would say today; I havent seen him in a while.   \r\nWhy am I a Republican?  Id like to answer that in somewhat of a jokingly(sic) way.  When I used to ask people why they were Democrats, they would say because their grandfather was a Democrat.  So my grandfather on my fathers side was a Republican, so thats why Im a Republican.  Actually, because I think the Republican way of government, as we talked about earlier in my political philosophy, was more to my liking than big government.  Unfortunately, Republicans over the last ten years or so have strayed from that and have become one of the biggest villains, if you will, in spending more, creating bigger government, I think  I guess  because they think thats the only way they can get reelected.  And if thats the reason, that they can get reelected, and not on the merits of their position, then I think thats not very good. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You have been active in the Georgia Republican Party for a long time.  Tell us, if you will, how the party gained its momentum over the years until they became the majority party in Georgia. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Well, I go back to 1952 I guess, or maybe a little bit later than that when I came home from Cornell, when I got active in the Young Republicans and then I evolved into the Republican Party.  So, at that time, the joke was you could have a convention in a phone booth.  And that was almost true.  You know, there werent that many.  In certain areas, particularly in Fulton County and in north Atlanta, northwest Atlanta in particular, and north Fulton County and south Fulton County were pretty strong Republican leaning people.  But in terms of getting  gaining  a majority in the State Legislature, that was a long way off and nobody really envisioned it I dont think, or maybe some people in their dreams (and maybe well talk about it), but I think if you were  if push came to shove, they would have said, I really dont see that happening anytime soon. \r\nI dont know exactly when the turning point or what the turning point was.  Maybe it was the Presidential Election in which George McGovern was the Democratic Presidential candidate and his very liberal philosophy just didnt sit very well with southerners.  And so the Republican Party got its surge particularly in Georgia (and I suspect in other southern states) by people who had been conservative Democrats saying that the party is no longer their party.  I can remember Zell saying that he didnt leave the Democratic Party; the Democratic Party left him.  And Zell is still a Democrat, but he believes in mostly conservative philosophy, and so he  I dont know how he votes.  Thats his personal thing.  I dont inquire as to how he votes.  I dont ask.  I dont ask people how they vote; thats their business.  Id like to see Zell in the Republican Party, but thats not going to happen.  I think hed be a good influence to the Republican Party. \r\nSo people who had been here, who were conservative and had voted Democrat all their life because that was, if you wanted to participate in the electoral process, there were very few places where Republicans were ever on a ballot.  So you had to vote for a Democrat.  So, just by association, Georgia does not have party registration so you dont have to declare yourself whether youre a Democrat or whether youre a Republican except when you go to vote in a primary. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Should we have party registration? \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Absolutely.  And Ill tell you why, as an aside, and thats been evidenced in these primaries that have been going on now which seem to be an eternity for the Democratic Party nominee for President.  In states that have open primaries, like Georgia, theres been a lot of crossover voting, and I dont think you get a true sense of who the Democrats in that state might want or who the Republicans if there was any competition there.  Also, Primary Elections, in my opinion, are not for everybody; theyre for those people who are active and work and believe in the particular party, either the Democratic Party or the Republican Party.  Outsiders, frankly, should not be part of that.  So if people have to declare, then that will either make people  and if people want to be independent, thats fine.  I think they have every right to be; and if they dont want to join a party or participate in a party or claim a party, thats fine.  But then they should not participate in the partys primary process, in my opinion. \r\nAnd you could change your party registration if you wanted to, say like every four years or whatever.  If you became disaffected with the Republican Party, you could become a Democrat or vice versa.  So I think we ought to have party registration.  Im told that the reason that we dont have it in Georgia is that, and for years, I think, some Republican legislators tried to establish that, but the Democrats who were in control  and rightfully so  said, Wait a minute.  Were doing very fine, very well, without it.  Theres no need to upset the apple cart.  If we have party registration, we may not do so well.  So, but I think we need it and I think it ought to be nationally.  Each state I think ought to have  make  that decision.  It should not be a national decision, but the state should decide that it has party registration and, in primaries, Republicans vote in the Republican Primary, the Democrats vote in the Democratic Primary.   \r\nIf the independents dont like the candidates that theyve chosen for either case, they have two options.  They can vote in the General Election for the person they least  or that they think is the least  of the evils, if you will, or they dont vote.  And they would say, Well, I need to vote.  Then make a decision.  These are the two choices you have.  You may not have participated in how they got there, but these are your choices.  You had the opportunity to participate if you declared which party you wanted to work with.  Were never going to have another party.  If we dont have party registration, theres no need for anybody to do that.   \r\nSo thats how I feel about party registration.  I feel pretty strong about it. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Do you remember the first Republican statewide candidate?  I thought about it and, you know, of course, Im very young now, Richard, and [laughter] my memory is not as good as it used to be though. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  I understand. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  But I think that the first statewide candidate that I can remember running was Rodney Cook. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Well, he didnt run statewide though. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  He ran for governor. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Rodney ran for governor?  I dont remember... \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yeah, he ran. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  ...Rodney running. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  I was active in a lot of campaigns for Rodney. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  He ran, I think... \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  ...his opponent was Joe Frank Harris. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Well, could be. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Maybe Im wrong. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  But Bo Callaway was the first one that I remember. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Thats right, yeah. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  In fact, Bo, I think was the first one  and, certainly, was the first one to run for governor  since Reconstruction.  And on that that, in that year, 1960... \r\n \r\nSHORT:  '6. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  ...6, there was Al Fowler who ran. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Now those guys were Democrats in the beginning. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  But they  but they switched... \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Switched parties. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  ...to Republican, thats right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You cant count those. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Oh, you cant count those? \r\n \r\nSHORT:  No. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Okay, all right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Youve got to count Republicans... \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Okay. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  ...like you that go back to their great-grandfathers. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Oh, okay.  Okay.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  But Callaway, youre right, Callaway was the first, and I should remember that because I was involved in that campaign.  I wasnt for Callaway; I was for Carter and I, you know, co-managed his thing.  But, anyway, lets talk about that race for a minute.  In 1966, and were speaking now of crossover voting, and I dont know whether this is true or not but I suspect it is.  In 1966, Congressman Callaway qualified not through a primary... \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Correct. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  ...but by a petition. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Petition. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  So he had no opp  he had no opposition in the primary. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Thats correct. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Then you had three or four candidates running on the Democratic side.  You had Lester Maddox, you had Ellis Arnold, you had Jimmy Carter, you had James Gray, you had Garland Byrd all vying for the Democratic nomination.  Well, without party registration, you see, Maddox was in the runoff with Arnold and its been suspected that Republicans went over and voted for Maddox because they thought he would be easier to beat than Arnold. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  I think youre absolutely right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Is that true? \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  I  I didnt see it happen with my own eyes, but I heard enough Republicans talk about it that I suspect it took place.  And my response to that was, Be careful who you vote for because thats who might win. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And thats what happened. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  And thats exactly what happened.  I do not believe in interfering with the other persons primary.  Thats their responsibility and I dont want to have anything to do with it because thats what happens.  In the General Election, the Republican nominee (or the Republican candidate) was Bo Callaway, whod been a Congressman, and the Democrat candidate was Lester Maddox.  There were a number of people who were dissatisfied with either candidate and a write-in campaign was ensued for Ellis Arnold.  And, as a result of that, Bo Callaway won the plurality of votes but not a majority that was required by law at that time.  Ellis  people writing in, signing, writing in Ellis Arnolds name  probably siphoned sufficient votes away from Bo Callaway that he could not get a majority of the vote, so the law then required that the Georgia Legislature select the Governor when there was no majority in the General Election.  Thats, since then, thats been changed.  Theres now a runoff provision I think in the General Election laws that would allow for the top two to run off and there wouldnt be a write-in.  But Lester Maddox was the nominee because a lot of Republicans voted in the Democratic Primary, and he won the Democratic Primary.  Thats one of the negatives of having this open election.  Each party should take responsibility for its candidate, good or bad. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You know, that  that provision that resulted from that election  was brought into play when Paul Coverdell defeated Wyche Fowler in a runoff. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Yes.  Yes. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Remember that? \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Yes. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And it was shortly after the Supreme Court decision.  Theres one interesting thing about that U.S. Supreme Court decision in that, in that Maddox/Callaway case.  You know, it was a 5 to 4 vote allowing the Legislature to elect, but Justice Black ruled that a state legislature could elect a governor in the first place, that theres no provision in the law that requires elections.  I thought that was very unusual. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Yes. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  So now lets get back, if you will, to your career in the Republican Party.  The Republican Party now has control of the Georgia Legislature, it has the Governor, it has the majority in the Public Service Commission.  It now is the majority party in Georgia.  If you had to pick some individuals who helped to make that possible, who would they be? \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  You mentioned Paul Coverdell.  Paul was probably one of the finest legislators to come out of Georgia in a long time.  He truly understood the need to be able to get along with members of both parties and any other diversities that might be in the Legislature, whether it was the Georgia General Assembly or whether it was the U.S. Senate.  I think Paul had a lot to do with that when he won the U.S. Senate race over Wyche Fowler and Wyche was seeking a second term, and I think that was sort of the beginning because that was really a statewide race won by a Republican, won legitimately by a Republican with no funny things in terms of who decides who gets elected.  And, interestingly enough, Paul Coverdell, who was a moderate, was able to bring the Republican right  the very extreme right  in to vote for him.  Its almost sort of reminiscent of whats happening now in the Presidential Election this fall with John McCain.  He is certainly not an extreme right Republican, but he is bringing I think a lot of these in to vote for him, and the reason is quite simple.  Its better to have a half a loaf or three-quarters of a loaf than no loaf at all.  And if you do not believe in the very liberal politics of the Democratic Party today, then by default you might have to  you should  vote Republican, even if you dont like the person that much. \r\nIll never forget it brings the story of  to mind the story of  when I ran, I had a cousin (my second cousin, my fathers first cousin) and shes very liberal.  She was, shes dead now.  She was a very liberal Democrat, and she told my father that, I think Richard will be the first Republican that Ive ever voted for and itll probably upset my stomach.  And he said, Well, take a Tum(sic) and vote.  [Laughter]   \r\nSo, you know, voting for somebody is not based on necessarily the person that is ideal and meets all ten of your requirements; its the person who meets most of your requirements.  Politics is the art of a possible, not  and I digress.  But I think thats part of our problem in todays political environment.  People are so representative.  The elected officials in a lot of cases are so set on their own ideology  and a lot of cases it is ideology  that they cant get anything done because they cant meet somebody else halfway.  They either want all a loaf or no loaf.  And Ive never thought a no loaf result was very good. \r\nBut what brought the Republican Party up, the liberal Democratic Party or the liberal philosophy of the Democratic Party turned off a lot of Democrats so they switched.  Also, there was a huge influx of people from out of state into Georgia who came from areas where the Republican Party had been strong.  They came out of the Midwest primarily, I think, and came to Georgia, and they came from Republican backgrounds.  So it was not a big switch or unusual for them to vote Republican.  Itd be interesting to note how many of the Republican elected officials in Georgia, as an example, they may have been born in Georgia but how many of their parents came from Georgia.  Theres nothing wrong with that.  That's very good.  I mean, you cant grow, you cant expand, you cant expand your thinking if you dont get this so-called cross-pollinization which sort of results from that kind of thing.  Its been very beneficial to Georgia. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  In 1964, when Lyndon Johnson signed the Voting Rights Act, he told Dick Russell, who was our distinguished United States Senator, that he was turning the South over to the Republican Party.  Do you think that is the case? \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  I think there were a number of people  Democrats  who were so opposed to the Civil Rights legislation that they thought because some Republicans were also opposed to the Civil Rights legislation that the Republican Party was the party of status quo in that regard and so they became Republicans.  I think its a bad reputation that the Republican Party got as a result of that.  I dont think that was the case, at least among Republicans that I knew, that they were opposed.  They may have been opposed to the way the legislation was handled.  A lot of southerners were opposed to it because it singled out southern states as being the only culprits of discrimination and segregation; whereas, in the North, my experience, having gone to school in the North for a couple of years, was that while segregation was not illegal, it certainly was de facto.  And the Civil Rights legislation, the provisions of that that required any change in election political boundaries had to be approved by the Justice Department  you had to have Justice Department monitors watching your election  that should have applied all over.  Then I dont think the objection to it would have been so great. \r\nBut, again, that gets back to the racial aspect of politics.  You cant take that away.  You may try, and I think weve made a lot of progress in that, but its always going to show up.  At least, I say always; certainly, in the remaining of my lifetime and your lifetime, which I hope is a number of years yet to go.  Its just part of the  part of the thing.  We dont seem to be as concerned about Hispanics, as an example, being elected, but its this racial thing which has been in our culture for forever, since weve been a country, and its going to take a long time to get that out of the way.  Its unfortunate.  It really is.  We ought to judge a candidate or a person on their merit, what they stand for, and not the color of their skin. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Georgia was the last state in what we consider the Deep South to allow the Republican Party to become a majority.  Why do you think that is? \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Huh, thats a good question.  I really dont know.  I can remember  was it Eisenhower  I think Eisenhower must have carried every state in the Union but Georgia and maybe Massachusetts was the other one.  And I thought that was very, you know, really unusual.  When Carter ran for reelection against Reagan, I think Georgia was probably the only state that didnt go for Reagan, or one of the very, very few that didnt.  It really shows a deep heritage in the Democratic Party in Georgia, and its unfortunate that ethnic groups have been somewhat classified as to who they generally vote for.  Blacks generally vote Democrat.  They didnt until Teddy Kennedy  I mean, JFK, John Kennedy  came in.  And blacks primarily, before John Kennedy, belonged to the Republican Party.  They were the more educated and the more affluent.  The lesser class, the poorer class blacks for the most part didnt vote for whatever reason, and a lot of the laws, of course, prevented them from participating. \r\nSo I think thats the reason.  I dont know how the demographics break out, but I suspect that in Georgia, which has a pretty high black population compared to  percentage-wise, an awful lot of that, over 65 percent, maybe as much as 70 percent  votes Democratic.  A lot of that I think has to do with the legacy of Martin Luther King, Jr., but, nonetheless, thats what happened.  So I think thats probably the reason.  Itd be interesting for some political scientist to try and delve into that and do that because, youre right, its only in recent  real recent  history presidentially, in Presidential Elections, that Georgia voted for a Republican, even though they elected Republican senators, even though they elected Republican members to Congress. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  There are those  and I among them  who believe that the Republican Party has done a tremendous job in selecting candidates for public office.  Johnny Isakson made this statement, and I certainly concur, that the Republican Party in Georgia has a deeper bench. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Yes, and I can  when I first ran in 1966 for the Georgia General Assembly  once I declared my candidacy, one of the first things I did was attend a candidate school.  And everybody Republican running for office wasnt forced to attend but were strongly encouraged to do that, and we learned how to do that.  The Republicans did more to enlist people to run and provided help in their running.  Where there was a Republican in opposition in primaries, the Party did not take sides.  They provided the same information to all the candidates.  It stayed out of the primaries as such.  I think in those -- it was much better organized.  The Democrats didnt have to organize, so they thought. \r\nIt reminds me of when Dwight Eisenhower came to Atlanta when he was running for President in the summer of 1952.  He had a big rally in Hurt Park.  Thousands of people.  The first political rally I had ever attended.  I was  I dont even think I was 18 yet.  Im sure I wasnt; I was a month or two away.  I remember going to that rally, and the only thing that I remember from Eisenhowers speech was that when he said, The Democrats have taken the South for granted too long.  Well, you can get used to this being in control and you dont see this other vehicle coming down the street.  Its like, you know, Satchel  you know, sort of the antithesis of what Satchel Paige said.  He said, I dont look over my shoulder.  Well, a political party and a politician better look over their shoulder to see whats happening.  And the Republican Party today in Georgia, while its been in the majority a short period of time, I dont believe is winning over the hearts and minds of a great many Georgians in general because I dont believe they have acted responsibility  responsibly  in the General Assembly.  Youve got a Republican Governor, a Republican Lieutenant Governor, a Republican Speaker of the House, and they cant agree on important legislation.  They fight.  Now thats not the  thats not a good sign.  Theres something wrong with that picture, and theyd better figure out how to change that picture if they want to be in the majority for any length of time. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  On that subject, do you see a Democratic comeback any time soon? \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Not right away, only because Georgia basically, well, is a conservative thinking state primarily on economic issues, fiscal matters, on national defense.  Georgia is a very strong state when it comes to national defense probably because weve had all these bases in Georgia and because of Richard Russell and Carl Vinson and others who were so strong  Walter George, who was so strong  in the support of Georgia in that arena.  So itll take a while for anything  for that  to change, I think.   \r\nBut if the Republicans cant start getting things done that the State needs to get done, important things that need to get done  the most critical issue the State faces today I think are two critical issues.  One is healthcare and the other which affects everybody is water.  And the State passed something this past session, but I dont think it  it basically said, you know, We agree to agree to do something.  The time is now.  We cant wait.  And if this drought this last year, this past year, didnt prove it when Lake Lanier essentially runs out of water and when Lake Allatoona becomes a dry bed almost and even when Lake Chatuge behind me drops way down in the middle of the summer, thats time to start thinking about water. \r\nThe Atlanta Regional Commission, in I guess 74-75, identified that in 20 years, Atlanta would be running low on water.  And there were a few proposals put out, one of which was even introduced in the General Assembly some years later, to authorize an aqueduct, if you will, a pipeline from the Savannah River over near Augusta over to metropolitan Atlanta.  And that went down in a big hurry because rural legislators said, Were not going to supply Atlanta with our water. \r\nThis brings up the age-old question of two Georgias:  Atlanta and the rest of Georgia.  But if we dont do something, its going to be  that surely will be  a crisis.  It was a crisis this past summer.  Were very fortunate that weve had some rains in the last couple of months which have helped, but all the experts in that area said its going to take at least the remnants of three hurricanes coming through Georgia to get enough water back in Lake Lanier.  And we keep adding people to the mix who are getting their water out of Lake Lanier.   \r\nThats number one.  They couldnt agree.  They couldnt agree on important legislation in the budget.  I mean, when you control all of those, Im almost speaking in favor of the days of Tom Murphy and Zell Miller, who didnt get along that well politically, but they managed to get legislation through whomever the governor was.  Unfortunately, for whatever reason, maybe the Republicans havent had enough time to learn.  Eight years is a long time, or six years; youd think that they would have gotten it by now, but maybe they need a little more time.  I hope that they figure out how to pull it together. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Richard, youve had a wonderful career.  Id like to ask you now some personal questions.  Through all the years youve been in politics, what has been your biggest success? \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  I have several I think.  One was the participation in the successful  in a leadership role in the successful  MARTA referendum.  The other was I think I exerted positive leadership, particularly in the financial area, when I was in Council.  And the third, I dont know whether youd call it a success or not, but I was fortunate enough to participate in both the Georgia Municipal Association and the National League of Cities, so I got to work with state leaders in local government outside of Atlanta and on the national level.  And that was exceedingly beneficial to me.  I call it a success.  I was privileged to serve on the Board of both of those organizations.  I chaired two of their most important committees, both at the national level and at the state level.  And while thats not legislative success, per se, I think its success because you cant be a successful elected official if youre myopic, if you have blinders.  Youve got to be exposed to the way other people do things, how other people think, what their likes and dislikes are, why they think the way they think, why they act the way they act, and that does, if nothing else, it expands ones own mind, but it also teachers you how to work together.  And I said earlier politics is the art of the possible and, if youre going to be a one-man band and youve got a hundred conductors or youve got a hundred one-man bands and youve really got no conductor, thats the recipe for disaster. \r\nSome years ago, I was involved in a Leadership Atlanta course, and one of the first things that we did was they played Revels Bolero and they played it without any conductor in essence leading it, and it was just a lot of sound.  It didnt make any sense.  And then they played it as its recorded with, you know, first it starts off soft and slow with the roll of the drums and then all the different instruments come in at different times and they all come together and they make a marvelous piece of music.  And that was an example of how leadership is so important and how to be a good leader youve got to have very good followers, and you cant be a good leader if you dont have good followers.  Ive been fortunate.  Ive been a leader (at least some will say that I have), but Ive had good followers.  And without the followers, there could be no leader. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  What is your biggest disappointment? \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  That even in the metro area that we couldnt coalesce; even the governments in Fulton County, at which time there were 11 municipalities then in Fulton County, we couldnt get very much agreement on anything.  It was always the not in my backyard, the NIMB, thought process.  Sure, we need this to happen, but over there in someone elses backyard.  We werent able to cross that very well, and thats evident.  We dont have a regional  Atlanta does not have a regional water plan or water system.  Its fragmented.  The transportation system is still fragmented.  Theres some plans  I mean, there are some rules  that youre supposed to observe when you do something, but its not like it ought to be.  Its very hard to happen because everybody is elected by their own little constituency and they think that if they dont do exactly what their constituency wants, theyre not going to get reelected.   \r\nI think the late Kel Townsend, who was very strong on this issue, he used to say in essence (and he was reelected to the Legislature year after year after year) that without our  well, occasionally, he had opposition, but it never amounted to much  and he said, Its my responsibility, and I agree with this wholeheartedly, that you may not like what I voted for or how I voted, but at least I hope you will understand the reason that I did.  And if the people dont like what I did, they have an opportunity to express that by voting for somebody else.   \r\nI used to say the same thing.  If you dont like what Im doing, thats fine.  At least, listen to me as to why I felt the way I did, voted the way I did, and you have an ample opportunity to express that in certainty at the next election.  After my first election to Council, I never had any more opposition, and I was successfully reelected three more times.  So I mustve been doing something right, although I sort of like to say that nobody wanted the job.  [Laughing] \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Did you ever consider running for another office while you were in the City government? \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Yes.  I thought when Maynard was completing his second term, his last term, I thought about running for Mayor.  I visited several people.  I was even called to the office of one of Atlantas and Georgias most distinguished citizens who was not involved in government but had a lot to do with the success of Georgia, particularly the educational system when segregation was  or desegregation was  coming about.  And Ill never forget his remarks to me.  He said, Richard, you should run for Mayor.  You should be Mayor.  But you cant get elected.  And, so at that time, I dont care who you were, if you were white, you were not going to be elected Mayor. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Uh-huh. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Today, were getting toward that point.  Im not sure were there yet.  But were getting toward that point that that might be changing.  I think the Mayor maybe in eight more years or something will be elected because of who they are, not what they are. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  How would you like to be remembered? \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  [Chuckling]  Just to be remembered would be very nice.  As someone who did their best, who didnt try for the impossible, but who understood the practicality, represented not just his own district but the City as a whole and tried to do what was right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  So we cant convince you to get back into politics? \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Theres a certain woman that youd have to go through first and I dont think that  I dont  I dont think theres anyone that could succeed in doing that. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Not even if you could be anointed? \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Not even if I could be anointed.  [Laughing] \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Richard Guthman, thank you very much for being our guest. \r\n \r\nGUTHMAN:  Thank you very much for coming and sharing my house. \r\n \r\n[END OF RECORDING] \r\n       "},{"id":"gych_rogp_024","title":"Tommy Irvin, 17 April 2008.","collection_id":"gych_rogp","collection_title":"Reflections on Georgia Politics oral history collection, 2006-2010","dcterms_contributor":["Short, Bob, 1932-"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, Georgia, 32.75042, -83.50018"],"dcterms_creator":["Irvin, Thomas T., 1929","Short, Bob, 1932"],"dc_date":["2008-04-17"],"dcterms_description":["Thomas T. \"Tommy\" Irvin was born July 14, 1929, in Lula, Georgia, and was the son of sharecroppers. He grew up on a farm in White County. After the death of his father in a sawmill accident, Irvin was forced to drop out of high school to support his mother and siblings. He went on to make his father's sawmill business extremely successful. He moved to Habersham County, and in 1956 was elected to the school board. He later became chairman and president of the Georgia School Boards Association. In 1956 he was asked to run for the state legislature. He won, and at 33, Irvin was one of the youngest members of the Georgia General Assembly. Lester Maddox asked him to manage his gubernatorial campaign. Upon Maddox's election, Irvin became floor leader and executive secretary. In 1969, Maddox appointed him to be agricultural commissioner. He became the longest serving agricultural commissioner in the United States, retiring in 2010.","Irvin discusses his early life working on a farm and his public service career, including his role on the Habersham County School Board, his later service as chairman and president of the Georgia School Boards Association, his election to the Georgia General Assembly, his management of Lester Maddox's 1966 gubernatorial campaign, and his role as Georgia's Commissioner of Agriculture from 1969 to 2011. He covers issues related to agriculture on state, national, and international levels, such as food safety, foreign trade, food prices, and the effect of immigration on production. Irvin also addresses the broader sphere of Georgia politics by discussing issues related to segregation and the legacy of several former governors.","Finding aid available in repository.","Interviewed by Bob Short."],"dc_format":["video/mp4"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection","http://sclfind.libs.uga.edu/sclfind/view?docId=ead/RBRL220ROGP.xml"],"dcterms_subject":["Georgia--Department of Agriculture","Georgia--General Assembly","Political campaigns--Georgia","Governors--Georgia","Legislators--Georgia--Interviews","Agriculture--Georgia","Agricultural laws and legislation--Georgia","Segregation--Georgia","International trade","Produce trade--Georgia","Agricultural laws and legislation","Agriculture","Governors","Legislators","Political campaigns","Political participation","Politics and government","Produce trade","Segregation","Georgia--Politics and government","Georgia"],"dcterms_title":["Tommy Irvin, 17 April 2008."],"dcterms_type":["MovingImage"],"dcterms_provenance":["Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-024/ohms"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection, ROGP 024, Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Libraries, Athens, Georgia, 30602-1641."],"dlg_local_right":["Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule."],"dcterms_medium":["oral histories (literary works)","interviews"],"dcterms_extent":["1 interview (69 min.) : sd., col."],"dlg_subject_personal":["Irvin, Thomas T., 1929-","Maddox, Lester, 1915-2003"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"gych_rogp_015","title":"Griffin Bell, 22 February 2007.","collection_id":"gych_rogp","collection_title":"Reflections on Georgia Politics oral history collection, 2006-2010","dcterms_contributor":["Short, Bob, 1932-"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, 39.76, -98.5","United States, Georgia, 32.75042, -83.50018"],"dcterms_creator":["Bell, Griffin B., 1918-2009","Short, Bob, 1932"],"dc_date":["2007-02-22"],"dcterms_description":["Bell discusses his early years growing up in Americus, Georgia, his law career, his role as chief of staff under Governor Ernest Vandiver, and his service as Attorney General under President Jimmy Carter. He addresses the legal and judicial aspects of civil rights--particularly school integration--and talks about his work challenging white collar crime and corruption. Bell also discusses his relationship with President Jimmy Carter during his tenure as Attorney General.","Griffin Boyette Bell was born in Americus, Georgia, on October 31, 1918. After attending Georgia Southwestern College for a time, Bell left to work in his father's tire store. He was drafted in 1942, serving in the U.S. Army Quartermaster Corps and the Transportation Corps at Fort Lee, Virginia. Upon his discharge in 1946, he enrolled in the Walter F. George School of Law at Mercer University, and became city attorney of Warner Robins, Georgia, before graduating or passing the Georgia bar exam. Following his graduation he worked in Savannah and Rome before joining the law firm that would become King \u0026 Spalding in Atlanta in 1953. His interest in politics led to his appointment as chief of staff for Governor Ernest Vandiver and his subsequent involvement with the Sibley Commission, a group organized to oversee the desegregation of Georgia's public schools. In 1961, President John F. Kennedy appointed Bell to the Fifth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, and he spent fourteen years on the bench. He returned to King \u0026 Spalding, but was nominated U.S. attorney general by President Jimmy Carter in 1976. In his tenure in that office he did much to restore public confidence in the U.S. Justice Department, which had been damaged during the Watergate era. He was central in fashioning federal policy in affirmative action and environmental protection, and led the effort to pass the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act in 1978. He resigned as attorney general in 1979, and Carter appointed him as special ambassador to the Helsinki Convention. From 1985 to 1987, he was a member of the U.S. Secretary of State's Advisory Committee on South Africa. In 1989, President George H.W. Bush appointed him as vice chairman of the Commission on Federal Ethics Law Reform. He returned to Atlanta to practice law, specializing in corporate internal investigations. He led investigations of E.F. Hutton in 1985 and the Exxon Valdez oil spill in 1989. In 2004, he was appointed chief judge of the United States Court of Military Commission Review, retiring in 2007. On January 5, 2009, Bell passed away due to complications from pancreatic cancer and long-term kidney disease.","Finding aid available in repository.","Interviewed by Bob Short."],"dc_format":["video/mp4"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection","http://sclfind.libs.uga.edu/sclfind/view?docId=ead/RBRL220ROGP.xml"],"dcterms_subject":["Lawyers--Georgia--Interviews","Attorneys general--United States--Interviews","Civil rights--Georgia--History","Civil rights--United States--History","School integration--Georgia","School integration--United States","Attorneys general","Civil rights","Lawyers","School integration","Georgia","United States"],"dcterms_title":["Griffin Bell, 22 February 2007."],"dcterms_type":["MovingImage"],"dcterms_provenance":["Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-015/ohms"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection, ROGP 015, Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Libraries, Athens, Georgia, 30602-1641."],"dlg_local_right":["Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule."],"dcterms_medium":["oral histories (literary works)","interviews"],"dcterms_extent":["1 interview (46 min.) : sd., col."],"dlg_subject_personal":["Vandiver, S. Ernest (Samuel Ernest), 1918-2005","Carter, Jimmy, 1924-","Bell, Griffin B., 1918-2009"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":"Griffin Bell interviewed by Bob Short \r\n2007 February 22 \r\nAtlanta, GA \r\nReflections on Georgia Politics \r\nROGP-015 \r\nOriginal: video, 60 minutes \r\n \r\nsponsored by: \r\n \r\nRichard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies \r\nUniversity of Georgia Libraries \r\nand \r\nYoung Harris College \r\n \r\nDate of Transcription:  June 22, 2009 \r\n \r\nBOB SHORT:  We're delighted today to have as our guest Judge Griffin Bell, former advisor to Governors, former Chief of Staff to Governor Vandiver, former Attorney General of the United States, former District Federal Judge.  It's a great pleasure to have you, Judge Bell. \r\n \r\nGRIFFIN BELL:  Thank you very much.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  What I would like to do if you will, Judge Bell, so our audience will know you a little better is just tell us a little bit about yourself growing up down in Sumter County.   \r\n \r\nBELL:  Well, I grew up in Sumter County, which is in South Georgia near Americus.  I was born in what we would call the Concord community, which is about nine miles from Americus.  And my father was a cotton farmer and my grandfather was a cotton farmer.  My grandfather's house is still standing there at Concord.  I rode by there recently.  They both had to sell their farms during the time of the bull weevil that wiped out all the cotton farmers. They moved into Americus.  I was attending school in a country school and I had skipped a grade, and so when I moved into Americus I started into fourth grade, but I'd been - I skipped the third grade so I was in the fourth grade, which was something of a disadvantage.  I finally finished high school when I was 15.   \r\nBut I grew up in a - I feel like I grew up in Americus, although I was born on a farm.  And I enjoyed the life of a small town, knew everybody in the town virtually.  My father's first cousin was a noted lawyer and judge.  He was over in the Supreme Court in Georgia.  And my father always wanted me to be a lawyer so he started talking to me when I was a little boy about being a lawyer.  And he introduced me to lawyers and he used to take me by the courthouse during court week and let me listen to the arguments, and I think it was in my head to be a lawyer and that's what I ended up being.  But I've had a very good life.  I went to Georgia Southwestern.  We didn't have very much money and that was all I could afford, but it was a good junior college.  And then I had to go in to - I had a low draft number.  I was getting ready to go law school at Mercer and - on a church scholarship.  And I got a low draft number so I decided I'd serve one year in the military and then go to law school.  And then, of course, the war started right after that and it was about four and a half years later before I got out of the Army.   \r\nBut I did go to Mercer Law School.  I was on my way to Athens to go to the University of Georgia and -- this is an old story - and I decided I'd stop in Macon and ask the dean if he'd get me a job part time at a law firm so it might speed up my career. And the dean said, \"If you'll make good grades the first quarter I'll guarantee you a job.\"  And so, I never got to Athens.  I just decided to stay in Macon and get that job.  And I was able to pass the bar examination.  In the fourth quarter I was in law school, I think.  One of the jokes we tell is that I became the city attorney of Warner Robins while I was still in law school.   \r\n \r\n*Laughter* \r\n \r\nBELL:  But it was true, I lived in Warner Robins, commuted into Macon.  And it was nice.   \r\nBut I then was working part time in this law firm in Macon and I got a job in a - with a law firm in Savannah and was there for four years and then our principal client was Central Georgia Railroad and I got to know all about Georgia.  Everywhere in Central Georgia you have a certain state that you went to with some kind of a litigation.  And then I went up to Rome, Georgia to represent the Chairman of the board of the railroad when his own lawyer died suddenly.   \r\nAnd then I was recruited by King \u0026 Spalding to come down here as a partner.  And I was - I think I'd been practicing law six years then.  Joined King \u0026 Spalding and I was in King \u0026 Spalding about nine years and during that time I came to managing partner, as  we call it at a law firm, succeeded Mr. Hugh Spalding, and during that time I managed the - I was the Co-Chairman of the Kennedy campaign for President.  That's how I finally got into the federal judging business.  I was the Co-Chairman along with George L. Smith who was Speaker of the House.  And then President Kennedy had nominated me to be on the Second  Court of  Appeals which covered six states:  Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi,  Alabama, Georgia, and Florida.  And I kept that job for about 14 years since Senator Russell and Senator Talmadge  was the Senators and they endorsed me, sponsored me, and I was able to get confirmed.  And I left and came back to the law firm and was here about 11 months before I became Attorney General. \r\nThe way I became Attorney General -- President Carter -- I had known all my life, because I'm nine miles from Plains and our families were friends.  He asked me to find someone to be Attorney General and I spent a considerable time interviewing people to get somebody to be an Attorney General and I never could find anybody that suited him.  So people, joking or not, claimed that I did such a poor job that I got the job myself.   \r\n \r\n*Laughter*   \r\n \r\nBELL:  That may be.  I did end up with the job and that's how I became Attorney General.  I had a great experience on the bench. It was during the Civil Rights Resolution and it sort of became the focus of my career in a way.  The whole Civil Rights Era, I was Governor Vandiver's Chief of Staff and we - he had promised there would be no integration of the schools and after he was elected, but before he took office, the Supreme Court handed down a second - what we call the second Little Rock decision.  And in that decision they held that even the threat of violence was no excuse for not integrating the schools.  So it became clear to me and to most everyone else that Governor Vandiver couldn't carry out his pledge that there would be no integration.  So, the Governor made me Chief of Staff, which is an honorary position, but I tell people it's like being a free lawyer. \r\n \r\n*Laughter* \r\n \r\nBELL:  So he made me Chairman of a committee of five people to advise him on what we should do about the Brown vs. Board of Education decision and carrying that out.  And we went around and talked to Governors and Attorney Generals in other states in the south and even in Virginia, where the had something that had become quite famous called massive resistance.  And I had to report to the Governor.  No one had a plan to keep following the law.  The law is a law and you have to follow it.  And that became a big issue in Georgia politics and I was accused of being a great liberal by people who didn't want to have integration at all and wanted to hold the line and - but finally, I told the Governor that I thought we ought to let the people speak.   \r\nAnd I wrote up a resolution at home on a Sunday night and took it to the Governor the next day - and he didn't know I was doing this - and I let him read it and it was to have these hearings in the Congressional districts to let the people decide if they wanted to keep the school - public schools open or did we want to go out of the school business -- not to  put any state money into schools.  You couldn't stop local support of schools, but this was state support.  And we - he thought well of it, but he said, \"This won't work unless we have a very strong Chairman.\"  And he wanted me to find a Chairman.  I had it written in a way where every person on it would be - either be appointed by the Governor or the Speaker of the House or the President of the Senate, except some people that had public officers, like head of the Farm Bureau and different organizations.  And he said - I said,   \"Who would you like to be the chairman?\"  He said, \"I would like to have Mr. Hugh Spalding or John Sibley.\"  John Sibley was -- at that time had left King \u0026 Spalding and had gone - was head of the SunTrust - the Trust Company Bank, but his office was adjacent to the law firm offices.   \r\nSo I went to see Mr. Spalding and he said he didn't want to do it because he was a member of the Catholic church and people might think there was something wrong with him, a Catholic, doing this job and he said it would be better for John Sibley to do it.  And I said, \"Well, I haven't been to see him yet.\"  He said, \"Well, let me talk to him before you go.\"  So, then I talked to Mr. Sibley and Mr. Sibley said, \"Is this a bona fide error or is this some kind of a dodge somebody just thought of?\"  I said, \"As far as I know it's bona fide.   I'm the one that thought of it.\"  So he said, \"Well, I might do it.  But the Governor has got to ask me.  He's got to come and - I want to talk to him.  I want to be sure I know what we're doing.\"  So I got the Governor to go and see him and he agreed to be the Chair person and that turned out to be a very good thing because he was a good Chair -- he was a good Chairman.  And they started these hearings; they had ten of them, one in each Congressional district.  And Mr. Sibley said he wanted to have the first one in the place where there'd be the most resistance to integrating the school and they picked Americus.  \r\n \r\n SHORT:  *Laughter*   \r\n \r\nBELL:  My home town.  And they had one here -- a couple of hearings, and -- oh, I've forgotten where all the hearings were, but they were well attended, and people voiced their opinions.  And then there were 21 people on the commission and they voted to keep the schools open even though they had to comply with the law.  And there were a good many descents to the majority holding, but that's the way it turned out.   \r\nAnd then based on that, we decided that we had to repeal all the laws that had been passed just a few years earlier when they changed the flag and all those sorts of things -- that those laws couldn't be complied with.  So we had to have a session of the legislature - special session - to repeal those laws.  So Governor Vandiver called a special session and he addressed the General Assembly on television at night -- which was the first time that it had ever been done -- to explain the crisis -- what we had to do.  And we changed all those laws in a very - just a few days.  And left it up to each community to do what they wanted to do about the schools.  And so we - Atlanta was the first one to have any integration. Finally, the whole state complied and - and I think we - I think, looking back on it, it was a very wise thing to do.  We had to comply with the law.  There was no way around it.  And we did it about as well as we could have done it.  I think we got way ahead of some of our neighboring brothers and sisters, but we did comply with the law.  I think it turned out to be a good thing.  I think it cost Ernie his political career; he knew that, but that was beside the point.   \r\nAnd then we had the University of Georgia crisis it really brought it to a head, because at that time he had the power to cut off all funding to the University.  And that came up again -- the very same thing -- are we going to follow the law or not.  And Ernie had called this famous meeting -- which you probably already know about -- at the mansion.  I was there and witnessed it, where he had all his top people, 21 of them, to tell him good-bye, assuming they all would resign in protest because he was going to announce he was not going to close the University -- that he couldn't bring himself to do it.  And they started down the line and told - Mr. Gillis was the first one.  He told Mr. Jim Gillis good-bye, thanked him for all he'd done for him.  And he's going down the line and finally it hit Frank Twitty, who was the majority leader in the House, and Twitty said, \"Well, Governor, don't tell me good-bye, I'm not going anywhere; I'm going to stay with you.\"  And then the next one was Carl Sanders, he was a Senator, and he said the same thing.  And the upshot was that not one of them left.  They all decided to stay.  And that was the before we repealed all the laws.  And that whole thing just worked out.  It was a wonderful, wonderful thing to watch it.  Also very exciting and exhilarating to see people follow the law.   \r\nThat's one of the problems with the world is there's so many places where the law is not followed.  It's a redeeming feature I think, probably, of our country, that we're accustomed to following the law even thought it's hard and even though we didn't agree with the Supreme Court decision.  And it was something that Congress should have done rather than having the Supreme Court issue an edict; that's where most of the trouble started.  Instead of the fifth section of the Fourteenth Amendment being provided, it would be enforced by the Congress, and it never was.  The Supreme Court did it, but it's still the law.  And the Supremacy Clause in the Constitution makes that clear.  Every officer, state or federal, has to take the same oath and that means that the Supreme Court decision was whether the federal statutes are the supreme law of the country.   \r\nThat's what I was - this brings me into the school desegregation cases.  While I was a judge I had to - this happened a lot of times.  I had more school kids than any judge has ever had and most of them I was able to work out a compromise with these lawyers.  They'd bring their lawyers in, talk with them, and sometimes the school superintendents,  and they'd work out their own plans.  And only in one or two incidents did we have to do something different.  I had to put the school board in Taliaferro County on receivership, and appoint the state school superintendent to run it because the school superintendent was going to fire the court.  And it was sort of a test case -- her lawyers wanted us to put her in jail -- it was a woman -- and I had no idea of doing anything like that. And so, I just said, \"Well, we'll turn the school board - school system over to a receiver.\"  So, I had to threaten that a time or two but after we did it once nobody else wanted to be put in that shape.  And it worked out pretty well.   \r\nWe knew that in some of the districts where they had small student bodies and two - just two buildings or four buildings, that the schools would turn black.  I had a chart I made over in Mississippi where I had 32 -- I had 32 school districts over there that I was responsible for.  I made a chart just to see if - what the tipping point was before the whites would leave to start a private school; it was around 30%.  A little above 30 whites would start to leave. So you knew in advance you were getting ready to destroy some public schools. But that was the cost of complying with the law.  Everybody was losing something and everybody was gaining something.  So, it was just the best way it happened to be and I felt like an administrator.  I was not a judge so much as I was an administrator.  But it was my duty to do that so I did the best I could.  And we had a lot of different kinds of civil rights cases that we heard. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Three thousand cases you heard.  \r\n \r\nBELL:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Wrote one thousand opinions. \r\n \r\nBELL:  Yeah, that's right.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And most of those were civil rights, weren't they? \r\n \r\nBELL:  Well, a lot of them were.  A lot of them were criminal cases, habeas corpus, that makes for a civil rights cases involving a lot of things besides school.   \r\nI remember having a case in Mississippi where they had an appeal in some little town and I said -- well let me get this straight now.  What was the issue?  It's three judges sitting together but each one of us could ask questions.  I said, \"What started all this?\"  They'd been parading downtown and they had a injunction against parading and what not.  And see, the South had to get use to the First Amendment, that you have the right to assemble and petition your grievances, which -- you march -- you're entitled to police protection when you march.  Well, that was a shocking thing to most people to know that was the law.  And I asked these lawyers, I'd said, \"What started all this ruckus over there in this town in Mississippi?\"  And they said, \"Well, it was the black's fault!  They were marching.  And I said, \"Well, why were they marching?\"  And he didn't want to give me a direct answer and I asked the lawyers for the blacks what the march was about.  I thought it was a school case or something like that.  He said, \"We were marching to get some street lights and paving and our part of town doesn't have any street lights or paving and where the whites live had all the street lights and paved roads.\"  And that's all -- that's all it was about.  I said, \"I tell you what we're going - we not going to hear any more in this case.  Go home and get that settled among yourselves and be - just act fairly.\"  I never heard any more about that case.  It went away.  Little things like that would happen.  That's why I felt like more of an administrator than a judge many times in those cases.   \r\nBut I learned a lot during that time and after I was in the government - after I left the Attorney General's office.  During the Reagan administration I was appointed to the commission on South Africa by Secretary Shultz in the State Department and I was sent to Africa - to South Africa to study the court system to see if they could eliminate apartheid through the court system.  But I had to report back that they couldn't because they didn't have a constitution.  There was nothing to - there's no governing law.  The parliament inside there could overrule any judge and the parliament had given all their powers to ten people and the President.  So, they could just - and they would be in order to stop any hearings in court, that sort of thing, so there was no way that would have worked out.  That was sad to have it be like that, but of course by that time all the whites were wishing they had a constitution.  And they would have been better off if they didn't have one.  But I knew in some ways about the integration crisis because of my experience in this country.  It's why they asked me to go over there and do that.   \r\nAt any rate, I finally decided that I was 56-years-old and I didn't want to do this judging the rest of my life.  The Civil Rights Revolution had essentially ended and we were overrun with criminal cases like we are today where every criminal gets a free lawyer and the lawyer -- now with states even paying lawyers and they've raised all these points of -- every drug dealer wants to claim his rights are being violated in some way and I didn't want to hear any more on those cases.  So, I decided I'd rather go back to being a lawyer, and that's what I did.  And that's how I came back to this law firm and I've been in this law firm three different times.  It's like having a home to go back to in a way.  But I came back and then that's when I - President Carter asked me to find an Attorney General; that's how I got started in the Attorney General job, which I like very much.  Really, people ask me,  \"What's the best job you ever had?\"  And I say, \"Being Attorney General, because you can get something done.  You don't have to ask anybody.\"  On the court I had to get the other judges to agree, but there, you just tell people to do things and you get them done.  We did a lot of great things.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You know, there's on thing I noticed while you were Attorney General --   that's been three decades ago -- you concentrated on white collar crime. \r\n \r\nBELL:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Did you anticipate that type of activity that we've had the last few years? \r\n \r\nBELL:  I did. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You did? \r\n \r\nBELL:  I did.  I thought that was what was going to happen.  There's so much opportunity for greed in there - in the enterprise system and greed will take - destroy anything and it will destroy a business if you're not careful. And we see - we're seeing more of that now than we ever have before.  And I just thought, there's too much government flowing for it not to have some kind of a problem.  Hell, they've taken over healthcare.  20% of the national economy is spent on medicine now.  There's no hospital - there's hardly anything that could operate without some government money coming in.  Same way with farming.  Anything you can think of, the government is funding money in.  So long as that door's in there somebody's going to take part in it.  You know that's going to happen.  If it wasn't for the fact that you could be prosecuted, no telling how bad it'd be.  So, I foresaw that and I knew that was going to happen.   \r\nThe other thing that I probably spent a lot of time on was making certain that the litigating capacity of the government is in one place in the Justice Department and not every little agency having lawyers and a way to litigate.  That's causing a lot of problems in Georgia now.  Back at that time, all of the law enforcement was under the Attorney General.  Now every little state agency's got their own lawyers.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  That's right. \r\n \r\nBELL:  And I don't know that Attorney General even has control over most of them.  That's a very bad thing.  Even the colleges now have lawyers.  And I don't think that's a good thing.  I think all the law enforcement ought to be one place and you ought to know who's in charge so that you can hold that person responsible.  And we used to have that in Georgia.  But in the federal government it's a fight every day to keep agencies from doing that.  They'll create more lawsuits and - but in the federal system, the Attorney General is the last one that has anything to do with litigation.  They can't appeal a case without the Attorney General to agree to it -- things like that.  And that was very important to get the agencies to understand that and enforce it.  And Mike Egan -- you remember Mike Egan, he was a Republican legislature.  He was one of my assistants up there -- one of the top people.  That was his job to keep up with that -- the litigating capacity of the justice department, settle disputes with agencies and what not. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You also looked at corruption in Congress. \r\n \r\nBELL:  Oh, yeah, we had - that's right.  Well, that was all forced on me.  When I got there it was a - they were in a bad situation with a South Korean named Tongsun Park, who was supposed to have bribed a lot of Congressmen.  And there was an article in the New York Times that he had bribed over 200 members of the House.  And Speaker O'Neill asked me to come over and address the House in an off-the-record session about what the truth was.  And I did and I looked at - got all the people that knew something about it and I told them that that was a gross exaggeration, that there was some bribes but if we didn't - I thought there were less than ten.  It turned out to be five.  The New York Times said there was 200 - over 200.  Well if that was so we'd had -- the whole government was corrupt.  But it wasn't like that.  And we got at the bottom of all that.  And I finally - Tongsun Park left the country and went to South Korea and he wanted to come back and I agreed to - that we might let him come back if he'd take a lie detector test over there to be administered by the FBI.  And I sent some FBI agents and a Deputy Attorney General over there to take his deposition to find out what the truth was about how many Congressman he had bribed.  And the Deputy Attorney General called me on a scrambler phone from Seoul, Korea, and said that, \"We can't get the truth out of him, he's lying.\"   And I said, \"Well, just tell him he's lying and tell him he can't come back, that the whole deal's off.\"  They went back there and told him that and then he decided to tell the truth.   \r\n \r\n*Laughter*   \r\n \r\nBELL:  And that's where we got -  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  That's where you got it. \r\n \r\nBELL:  Got most of the information.  We had him - I'd already had him indicted and if he had left there we were going to pick him up in London or Paris -- sort of flying back, and arresting him anyway, but he wouldn't come back! \r\n \r\n*Laughter* \r\n \r\nBELL:  But we got it all straightened out.  But that was a bad thing and there were a few - you know, if you got 400, 500 people in Congress -- 535 -- there are bound to be a few bad eggs.  There's a few bad ones in this building!   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  *Laughter* \r\n \r\nBELL:  Everywhere there's a few!  The question is how many - the secret is to hold it down to a few.   \r\n \r\n*Laughter* \r\n \r\nSHORT:  After your - \r\n \r\nBELL:  That's what the law is for! \r\n \r\nSHORT:  After your service as Attorney General you also participated in a lot of investigations. \r\n \r\nBELL:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  For corruptions in corporations. \r\n \r\n      BELL:  I did, yeah.  I actually made a practice out of it.  We have something in the law firm called special matters.  That's corporate investigations and representing people in white collar crime situations with the government and we represent a lot of people that get in trouble with the government about contracts and what not.  We - and our policy is that if we think they're guilty, we tell them so, and we settle with the government -- pay the government back its tax claim.  It works out pretty well.  It's become a big business.  But I did a lot of corporate investigating.  I did the Exxon Valdez grounding investigation, for example.  A lot of times you need to just know what happened.  There's so much that - so much speculation.  So, it's in the interest of companies to sometimes just bring them outside or find out for sure what happened.  So, I've done a lot of that.  I've had a very, very interesting career and I've been retired now three years and it's sort of difficult to get out of the mainstream, but I've gotten used to not being in it and I'm certainly enjoying life.   But I still keep an office with a secretary, so I know what's going on but I don't do much myself.   \r\n \r\n      SHORT:  Your secretary has just reminded us that you have a doctor's appointment. \r\n \r\nBELL:  I do, yeah.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well let me end this Judge Bell. \r\n \r\nBELL:  I got 15 more minutes. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Oh, you do?   \r\n \r\nBELL: Yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, good.  Well, let's go right on.  Let's go  on. \r\n \r\nBELL:  Yeah.  No, well that's - that's a - you ask me some questions now.  I've given you sort of a general run down.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, I would like to ask you a question about your relationship with President Carter while you were in Washington. \r\n \r\nBELL:  Well, it was very good.  President Carter and I don't see eye to eye on politics much now, but then, he was a very good person to work for.  He had the right idea about the Justice Department.  He told me in advance that he didn't think there ought to be any politics at all in the Justice Department, that he considered it to be a neutral - a place that ought to be neutral.  We started calling it a neutral zone in the government.  If you think about it, the law has to operate on neutral principles.  And if it doesn't then it's -- some outside forces are having an effect, which would not be proper.   \r\nAnd so, with that in mind, I never had to go to a political meeting of any kind.  I was never asked to do anything if it had anything to do with politics, and two or three times somebody at the White House would try to influence somebody and I'd put a stop to it immediately.  One time I actually got somebody fired from the Justice Department who tried to intercede in a criminal case.  And at that time, President Carter asked me to come over and speak to the White House staff about not ever trying to interfere with the Justice Department and then he asked me to make one - to tell them they couldn't interfere with the Defense Department the same way! \r\n \r\n  *Laughter*   \r\n \r\nBELL:  So, he had the right idea about the government.  He's very sound on how the government ought to operate -- very ethical, and it was a pleasure to work with him.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  When he was Governor of Georgia he was sort of a hands-on manager. \r\n \r\nBELL:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  It sounds like that he left you to run the Justice Department without - \r\n \r\nBELL:  He did.  And I always thought it was because he wasn't a lawyer. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  *Laughter* \r\n \r\nBELL:  You know, he'd say even Lester Maddox didn't try to run the judiciary.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  *Laughter*  \r\n \r\nBELL:  He'd get people to do it.  But President Carter let me run it and it was good and I think that's the way the Justice Department has to be run.  I was talking to some people this morning about the Justice Department and we - we were making the point -- the people I was talking to had both at one time been in the Justice Department.  It runs well when there's a not a politician running it! \r\n \r\nSHORT:  *Laughter* \r\n \r\n      BELL:  Get a lawyer!  Let's get a good lawyer and put him in there, somebody that understands the federal system.  You can't just take somebody like -- we see Ms. Reno, who was the state prosecutor in Miami.  They don't have a broad enough knowledge to do the job well to begin with.  I don't mean to criticize her, but she'd be an example of somebody that wasn't trained.  You know, I was trained in the federal judiciary, and so that made it easy for me.  But if you just take some politician and put him in there, you're asking for trouble.  We shouldn't have that.  And the Justice Department ebbs and flows, depending on who the Attorney General is, because it reflects the Attorney General.  Although the key people there are career workers and they are - well, I like to compare them to British Civil Servants.  Doesn't matter who the people elect, you got this staff that's really professional. And the Justice Department has got walls of people like that.  All the lawyers come in under our system, which means they have to be in the top 10% of the classes, and they like it and most of them will just stay there.  You'd think they'd come to stay two or three years -- they'd sign up for four years to get in the program.  But there's lots of them been there 15, 20 years.  That's what makes it a good place.  But you still have to have a leader and the top people - the President gets about -- at that time, got about 70 appointments at the Justice Department out of 55,000.  And the rest of them have been placed.  But they - they're really the policy makers, the new people. \r\n      I remember one time I had to replace a head of the Antitrust Division who didn't want to leave.  He said that he wasn't interfering with President Carter's program.  He said,  \"I'm running my own program.\"  I said, \"That's the reason you have to leave!\"   \r\n \r\n*Laughter)*   \r\n \r\nBELL:  You haven't been elected and you're running your own program! \r\n \r\n*Laughter* \r\n \r\nBELL:  I said, \"We have elections in this country, you know.\" \r\n \r\n*Laughter*   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You also paid special attention to intelligence - \r\n \r\nBELL:  Oh yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:   -- at the Attorney General. \r\n \r\nBELL:  Well, I knew a little bit about intelligence from some court cases, but not much.  And I had to study all of that.  I became sort of a semi-expert in the field. I mean, I understand Constitutional power of the President, and I'm the one that got the law passed setting up the foreign intelligence surveillance court that we're using now.  And I didn't think of that -- the Attorney General leaving, who was an Attorney General under Ford before that, and his main - he had been President at University of Chicago and he got to Washington right after Watergate and the Senate and the House committees, church committee, and somebody at some committee in the House, they about destroyed the foreign intelligence capacity with their investigations.  And he set out to rebuild it.   \r\nAnd he finally - the Attorney General in the system -- either he or the President, approves all these foreign intelligence operations, like wire tapping and all sorts of things.  And General Levi decided that we had to have the imprimatur of the federal courts in some way for the public to have confidence in the system.  And he got a bill introduced in the Congress -- which was not passed -- to set up that Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court and he recommended it to me.  I got it passed.  And I testified, though, in the House, that that did not take away the President's power.  If the President didn't want to follow that he wouldn't have to follow it.  Because the President's executive power gives the President the right to operate foreign intelligence like he operates foreign policy.  And the authority for that was John Marshall, who, as you know, was a Lieutenant under George Washington and Washington set the government up.  And John Marshall, when he was a Secretary of State under John Adams, testified in the House as to the duty and power of the executive.  And one of those powers was to operate the foreign intelligence, which he said has to be done in secret, because - and so, the Supreme Court of the United States in 1936 upheld the opinion and quoted that and held it just saying that it was a law.  It is a law now.  And despite what the Congressmen argue about it, and what all the pundits have to say -- that is the law.  President Carter agreed to use this in foreign intelligence court.  And then the Presidents since then have agreed to it.  But it got so cumbersome, given the fact of Al-Qaida, when they're make any phone calls, you couldn't into the Justice Department, have an investigation, and get an order from the Attorney General and then the court to listen on the phone.  It would be over with.   \r\n \r\n*Laughter*  \r\n \r\nBELL:  So, President Carter - President Bush, then, decided the thing to do after 9/11 was to go ahead and on his own order have them listen to these calls that was - if it was coming from an Al-Qaida source into this country.  That's what they were doing.  And that case is in court now in the Sixth Ciruit.  And I anticipate they're going to reverse that --  that district court decision in Detroit.  If not, the Supreme Court is going to reverse them.  The Supreme Court knows this law just as well as I know what it is.   \r\nSo - but the President in the meanwhile is now -- got to - met with the - had somebody meet with the foreign intelligence court, who are just federal judges appointed on special duty, and one of the first of the seven - I was - I mean I worked with the Chief Justice to set up the court.  One of the first was Bill O'Kelly.  He served as one of the judges.  And what you do is have a judge on duty 30 days, then another one for 30 days and they sign off on these things.  It's not like getting a warrant.  They sign an approval or something the Attorney General already approved.  And so they've had a meeting obviously.  I don't know this but I've got this bulletin from the Attorney General explaining it.  That from now the foreign intelligence court is set up some kind of expedited way where you do it fast enough.  It got to where it took too long.  And they had turned down, you know, an FBI request to look at a computer - at the server on a computer that one of these Al-Qaida types had that actually, I think, was one of the ones that got on the airplane -- blew up the plane.  They turned that down because they said it didn't have enough information. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Couldn't do anything with it. \r\n \r\nBELL:  At the Justice Department.  And that was one of the big things when they had the 9/11 hearings.  They were complaining about one of the members of the commission, who was Jamie Gourielli, who was deputy to Ms. Reno, and they blamed her for turning it down.  That was one of the big things that was going on.  But there - it's also a secret they wouldn't - you couldn't tell from the newspaper what it was about, but that was - it was about that time that the President decided to - he had to sign these orders so we could listen to those calls. The general public, I'm sure, does not object to listen - to us overhearing a call from somebody in the Al-Qaida organization.  But they all wonder how you - they don't want the President do that.  You know, they think, well, the President's got too much power.  Well, that's his job under the constitution, unless we don't agree with George Washington and John Marshall and John Adams.  *Laughter*  We've got another crowd we're listening to! \r\n \r\nSHORT:  On the subject of justice -- what rights do these foreigners who come into this country and commit those acts have under our constitution? \r\n \r\nBELL:  Well that's - people can't understand why they have any rights.  You know, illegal -- illegal aliens even claim rights.  But I guess, of course, we're so civilized that we give them some of the rights.  But they don't have every right that a citizen has.  But they have some rights to due process, for example, that we're not to hold people without having a basis for holding them.  Even the prisoners at Guantanamo.  I'm on the review panel for those cases, if they ever have one to review.  They haven't tried one yet, but they - they have to - you've got to be certain you're not holding the wrong person, because it could be a mistake.  So they're having military hearings to be sure they've got the right - that's why they released some of them.  And the others they would release but the countries won't take them back -- where they came from.  They don't want them.  Australia - there's one Australian down there, you know, and the Prime Minister of Australia said,  \"We'll be glad to take him back after y'all finished trying him.\"   \r\n \r\n*Laughter*   \r\n \r\nBELL:  They figured they won't ever get him back!   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  *Laughter* \r\n \r\nBELL:  These are not the most desirable people. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yes, that's true.  Well, I want to share with our audience this quote about our guest today, Judge Bell, who I have admired personally over the years for all the great service he's rendered to the state of Georgia.  But this is from Chief Justice Warren Burger,  who said, \"No finer man has ever occupied the Office of Attorney General of the United States or discharged his duty with greater distinction than Griffin Bell.  I sit here in awe of you, sir.\"  \r\n \r\nBELL:  All right.  I thank you very much.  That shows what a good friend Chief Justice Burger was.   \r\n \r\n*Laughter* \r\n \r\nBELL:  Okay? \r\n \r\n[END] \r\n \r\n "},{"id":"gych_rogp_013","title":"Elizabeth \"Betty\" Vandiver and Jane Kidd on Ernest Vandiver, 09 February 2007.","collection_id":"gych_rogp","collection_title":"Reflections on Georgia Politics oral history collection, 2006-2010","dcterms_contributor":["Short, Bob, 1932-"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, 39.76, -98.5","United States, Georgia, 32.75042, -83.50018"],"dcterms_creator":["Short, Bob, 1932","Vandiver, Betty Russell, 1925"],"dc_date":["2007-02-09"],"dcterms_description":["Ernest Vandiver's wife Betty and his daughter Jane recall memories of the former Georgia governor. They discuss the efforts to improve conditions at Central State Hospital, integration at the University of Georgia, Governor Vandiver's military career, and the role of political parties in Georgia in the mid-twentieth century and in 2007.","Finding aid available in repository.","Sybil Elizabeth \"Betty\" Russell Vandiver was born in Atlanta, Georgia in 1925. The niece of Richard B. Russell, she grew up in Winder, Georgia. In 1947, she graduated from the University of Georgia and married Samuel Ernest Vandiver of Lavonia, Georgia, with whom she had three children. She helped him campaign successfully for lieutenant governor, a post Vandiver was elected to in 1954. In 1958, Vandiver was elected governor of Georgia. As first lady, Betty Vandiver was instrumental in improving the quality of care at Milledgeville's Central State Hospital, Georgia's first mental institution. Ernest Vandiver's subsequent campaigns for governor (1966) and U.S. Senate (1972) proved unsuccessful, and the Vandivers retired from politics. They remained active in the business and community affairs of Lavonia.","Interviewed by Bob Short.","Jane Brevard Vandiver Kidd was born February 12, 1953. As the daughter of Georgia Governor S. Ernest Vandiver (1959-1963) and grand-niece of Senator Richard B. Russell, Jr., Kidd was involved in politics early, serving as chair of Youth for Herman Talmadge in Talmadge's 1968 Senate campaign, and campaigning for her father during his 1972 US Senate campaign. She graduated from the University of Georgia's Grady College of Journalism in 1975, and in 1980 she won a seat on the Lavonia City Council, which she kept for three terms. In 1992 she was Don Johnson's campaign manager in his successful run for Congress, and served as Johnson's district director. In 2004 Kidd was elected to the state house, serving for one term before mounting an unsuccessful bid for a state senate seat. In 2007 she was elected chair of the Democratic Party of Georgia."],"dc_format":["video/mp4"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":["Athens, Ga. : Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies"],"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection","http://sclfind.libs.uga.edu/sclfind/view?docId=ead/RBRL220ROGP.xml"],"dcterms_subject":["Georgia--Governor (1959-1963 : Vandiver)","University of Georgia","Central State Hospital (Milledgeville, Ga.)","College integration--Georgia--Athens--History","Legislators--Georgia--Interviews","Governors--Georgia","Political parties--Georgia--History","College integration","Governors","Legislators","Political parties","Politics and government","Georgia--Politics and government","Georgia","Georgia--Athens"],"dcterms_title":["Elizabeth \"Betty\" Vandiver and Jane Kidd on Ernest Vandiver, 09 February 2007."],"dcterms_type":["MovingImage"],"dcterms_provenance":["Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-013/video"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection, ROGP 013 Elizabeth \"Betty\" Vandiver and Jane Kidd on Ernest Vandiver. Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, The University of Georgia Libraries."],"dlg_local_right":["Before material from collections at the Richard B. Russell Library may be quoted in print, or otherwise reproduced, Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule."],"dcterms_medium":["oral histories (literary works)","interviews"],"dcterms_extent":["1 interview (109 min.) : sd., col."],"dlg_subject_personal":["Vandiver, Betty Russell, 1925-","Kidd, Jane Brevard Vandiver, 1953-","Vandiver, S. Ernest (Samuel Ernest), 1918-2005"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"gych_rogp_005","title":"Carl Sanders, 01 October 2006.","collection_id":"gych_rogp","collection_title":"Reflections on Georgia Politics oral history collection, 2006-2010","dcterms_contributor":["Short, Bob, 1932-"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, Georgia, 32.75042, -83.50018"],"dcterms_creator":["Short, Bob, 1932","Sanders, Carl, 1925-2014"],"dc_date":["2006-10-01"],"dcterms_description":["Sanders discusses his upbringing in Augusta, his rise to Governor of Georgia in 1963, the 1970 gubernatorial race, and his career after politics. He shares his political philosophy on such issues as civil rights, education, and transportation.","Carl Edward Sanders was born in Augusta, Georgia, on May 15, 1925. He attended the University of Georgia, where he accepted a football scholarship. In 1943, before he could finish his college education, he enlisted in the Air Force and trained as a B-17 pilot. After World War II he returned to the University, finishing three years of law school in two years and passing the bar in 1947. Sanders entered private practice in Atlanta and eventually started the law firm of Sanders, Thurmond, Hester and Jolles. In 1954, he made a successful bid for the Georgia House of Representatives. In 1956, he won a seat in the Georgia Senate. At the time, the seat rotated between Richmond, Glascock, and Jefferson counties. Sanders was subsequently elected to the same seat by both Jefferson and Glascock counties due to his overwhelming popularity, becoming the only man to serve three consecutive terms in a multi-county district. In 1959, Governor Vandiver named Sanders floor leader of the senate. He went on to serve as president pro tempore of the senate from 1960 to 1962. Sanders took the next step in his political career by running for governor in 1962 against Marvin Griffin. Sanders won the election, making him at 37 the youngest governor in the country at the time. Sanders could not succeed himself as governor and, therefore, retired back into private life in 1967. Instead of returning to Augusta, he and his family remained in Atlanta where he started a new law firm. Sanders' final campaign for public office was in 1970, when he was defeated by Jimmy Carter in the governor's contest. Sanders never ran for public office again, but worked for many other Democratic candidates such as Zell Miller, Andrew Young, and Sam Nunn. He also went on to serve as finance chairman for the Democratic Party of Georgia during George Busbee's term as governor.","Finding aid available in repository.","Interviewed by Bob Short."],"dc_format":["video/mp4"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection","http://sclfind.libs.uga.edu/sclfind/view?docId=ead/RBRL220ROGP.xml"],"dcterms_subject":["Georgia. General Assembly. Senate","Georgia. General Assembly. House of Representatives","Legislators--Georgia--Interviews","Governors--Election","Governors--Georgia","Civil rights--Georgia","Civil rights--United States","Education--Georgia","Educations--United States","Transportation--Georgia","Transportation--United States","Civil rights","Education","Governors","Legislators","Transportation","Augusta (Ga.)--History","Georgia","Georgia","United States"],"dcterms_title":["Carl Sanders, 01 October 2006."],"dcterms_type":["MovingImage"],"dcterms_provenance":["Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-005/video"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection, ROGP 005, Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Libraries, Athens, Georgia, 30602-1641."],"dlg_local_right":["Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule."],"dcterms_medium":["oral histories (literary works)","interviews"],"dcterms_extent":["1 interview (50 min.) : sd., col."],"dlg_subject_personal":["Carter, Jimmy, 1924-","Sanders, Carl, 1925-2014"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":"Carl Sanders interviewed by Bob Short \r\n2006 October 1 \r\nYoung Harris, GA \r\nReflections on Georgia Politics \r\nROGP-005 \r\nOriginal: video, 50 minutes \r\n \r\nsponsored by: \r\nRichard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies \r\nUniversity of Georgia Libraries \r\nand \r\nYoung Harris College \r\n \r\n BOB SHORT:  I'm Bob Short, and this is Reflections on Georgia Politics here at Young Harris College.  We're delighted to have you as our guest, and we're anxious to speak to you about yourself and your administration.  \r\n \r\n CARL SANDERS:  Well, I'm delighted to be here and I'm looking forward to talking to you.  \r\n \r\n SHORT:  Good.  Before we get into a serious discussion about your administration, would you mind telling us just a little bit about your early life and family and growing up in Augusta? \r\n \r\n SANDERS:  Well, I was born in 1925.  My father was with Swift \u0026 Company, the meat packing plant -- a salesman with them.  I grew up in Augusta and I grew up in an even-handed family that was god-fearing and dedicated to doing the right thing.  My mother was one of the most wonderful individuals that I have ever known.  And so, I had a very fine childhood.  \r\n When I was about seven or eight years old, my mother took me down and enrolled me in the YMCA.  They taught me how to swim.  They taught me how to play football, basketball, baseball.  Those sports were not in the public schools at that time.  And later, as a result of that, when I went to high school in Augusta at Richmond Academy, which is one of the finest schools that I have ever attended, I had played enough football that I got a scholarship -- a football scholarship -- to the University of Georgia.  Otherwise, I would not have gone to college.  I was the first individual in my family that ever attended college, and if it had not been for the athletic scholarship -- if it had not been for that training that the YMCA gave me -- I doubt if I would have gone.  So, I grew up in a family that was not very poor, but was not considered to be well-off.  I doubt seriously if my father ever made more than a couple hundred dollars a month.  And back in the Depression, much to my -- without my knowledge -- everybody got their salary cut in half in the Depression, including my family.  We had to give up buying a home and rent a home from the insurance company because of that.  But I never knew that, because I always had a good, healthy family relationship.  I had a brother.  As I said, my mother was just absolutely dedicated to her two sons.   \r\n And I assumed the opportunities in leadership that I could at a very young age.  I was captain of the school board patrol.  I used to stand out on the corner and protect the children coming and going from school.  I was President of my class in high school.  As I said, I made the all-state football team.  I had many good opportunities, but they were because I had a good family.  And I always look back on my life and treasure my mother and my father for helping me grow up and grow up in an environment where I could continue to go on and do other things.  \r\n Of course, when I left the University of Georgia after a year, I -- World War II came along.  There I was at Georgia, playing football, when I was on the freshman team of the University of Georgia's Rose Bowl team in 1943.  And I went to Georgia because I was -- at a very young age -- because back when I was in school, you only had eleven grades.  You didn't have the twelfth grade.  So, I went into the University of Georgia at a time when I was sixteen.  When I became seventeen-years-old, the war had broken out, and I did what every red-blooded young American boy wanted to do -- I came over here to Atlanta, and enlisted in the naval air corps.  They took my papers, filled them out, and after taking the papers, the Naval instructor said, \"You've got a problem.\"  I said, \"What kind of problem have I got?\"  He said, \"You're only seventeen years old.  You've got to go home and get your parent's consent.\"  So I said, \"Ok.\"  So, I went back to Augusta that weekend.  I got to thinking about trying to land an airplane on one of those carriers out in the ocean, with it bobbing up and down!  And I thought, you know, I don't believe I want to do that!  So, I went out to the air force base in Augusta and enlisted in the army air corps, at eighteen years old.  I went through pilot training.  I went through World War II as a first bomber on a B-17 bomber, which was the largest air craft that we had there, except for the B-29 at the end of the war.  I was the chief bomber.  The first bomber.  I had a ten-man crew.  I was the youngest.  I was nineteen years old, flying that plane.  I was the youngest man on the crew, but I was responsible for the crew.  \r\n I -- the war came -- ceased in 1945, when we dropped the atomic bomb.  I was headed to the eighth air force, having finished my overseas training, and the war ended.  I had a choice -- either stay in the air force for four more years, or get out and go back to school.  I chose to get out and go back to school.  In 1945, I went back to the University of Georgia.  I re-entered my athletic scholarship.  My brother and I -- who had come up -- who was two years younger than I was, and had not been in World War II, but later went to the Korean War, he and I played on the 1945 Georgia football team.  We went to the Oil Bowl, which was in Houston, Texas.  We beat Tulsa.  \r\n At that time, I had taken exams.  I really had only -- as I said -- a year of college work before I went in the service.  Georgia had an opportunity -- or gave me an opportunity to take exams -- as a returning veteran -- and anything I could pass, they'd give me college credit.  I took enough exams that I was able to go to law school with one quarter's work as an undergraduate.  So, I went into the law school, and when I did, I went to see Coach Butts, and said, \"I can't play football and go to law school.  It's just impossible for me to do both of those things.\"  Plus, the fact -- I was backing up to Johnny Rauch, who was playing -- who was an All-American that year, so I was playing more defense than I was offense.  So, it wasn't a big decision on my part. \r\n \r\n SHORT:  *Laughter* \r\n \r\n SANDERS:  So, I went to law school.  And, the law school at that time was crowded with World War II veterans returning.  The law school takes three years, normally, but they gave me an opportunity -- and others -- if we wanted to, to go around the clock.  Twelve months out of the year rather than just nine months.  I finished three years of law school in two years.  When I was in law school, switching over to politics, there were lots of people that were already running for Governor, Lieutenant Governor, and so forth.  I had no interest at that point in politics, other than trying to get through law school, go back home, and get a job and go to work.  But anyway, I went around the clock for two years.  I took the bar exam before I finished law school.  You can't do that now, but back in those days they would allow you to do it.  I came over here with some friends who were taking the bar exam for practice.  I lucked out and passed the bar exam before I got out of law school.  Knowing that I was a lawyer then, and I could practice law, I asked my present wife of fifty-eight years, if she would entertain a marriage.  We got married in September of 1947, which was six months before I picked up my law degree.  We went back to Augusta, and I entered a small law firm in Augusta, Hammett \u0026 Kennedy.  It later became Hammett \u0026 Kennedy \u0026 Sanders.  I practiced law, primarily trying cases in the court room in front of juries for two or three years.   \r\n Richmond County was in the control, back in those days, of what was known as the Cracker Party, which is sort-of like the Tammany Hall was in New York.  One of the big participants in that was Roy Harris, who had previously been the Speaker of the House and the Georgia legislature, and who was an avowed segregationist in every way, shape, and form and fashion.  Some of us that had served in World War II and were veterans, decided that we didn't like the idea of having the county and the city controlled by the Cracker Party.  So, we joined the Independent Party, and took on the Cracker Party and beat them.  That was my first election in 1955 to the House of Representatives.  I came to Atlanta.  I served for two years in the House of Representatives.  \r\n Vandiver was running for Lieutenant Governor at that time, and he was getting ready to run for Governor.  I then decided to run for the Senate.  I ran for the Senate, which was a rotation back in those days of two or three counties for each Senatorial district.  My district was Richmond, Jefferson, and Glascock County.  I ran for the Senate as a -- for Richmond County.  I won the election.  I ran for the Senate for Jefferson County.  They gave up their right to have a Senator appointed, and I got elected again.  I ran for the Senate for the third time for Glascock County.  They gave up their right to have a Senator, and I served three terms in the Senate.  I was Vandiver's floor leader.  I later was elected President Pro Tem of the Senate, and that's when I then decided that maybe I ought to try to run state-wide.   \r\n Well, at that time, the Lieutenant Governor's position, of course, was not a very strong position, but it existed.  The candidate of the -- of the Vandiver group, initially, was Peter Zack Geer, who was Ernie Vandiver's Executive Secretary.  I was President Pro Tem of the Senate, so I announced that I was going to run for Lieutenant Governor and Peter Zack Geer announced that he was going to run for Lieutenant Governor.  We started campaigning.  This was in 1961 and '62, and while I was campaigning for Lieutenant Governor, I was down in Dublin, Georgia, making a speech, and the editor of the local paper came up to me and said, \"Have you heard the news?\"  I said, \"No. What's the news?\"  He said, \"A retired Atlanta policeman, who's now a lawyer by the name of Carl F. Sanders, has just announced that he's going to run for Lieutenant Governor.\" \r\n \r\n SHORT:  *Laughter* \r\n \r\n SANDERS:  I said, \"You've got to be kidding!\"  He said, \"No, it's on the news.\"  So, I went back to Atlanta and I thought about how I was going to get people to distinguish between Carl E. and Carl F. Sanders.  I knew that Peter Zack Geer and some of his friends had gotten that guy to get in the race.  So, I said to myself, \"That seems like an impossible thing.\"  So, I said, \"I'm going to run for Governor.\"  And then all of a sudden these people from all over Georgia started coming in, saying, \"Don't get in the Governor's race.  We've got the county locked up for you for Lieutenant Governor.\"  And I said, \"It's too late.  I'm in the Governor's race.\"  \r\n So, I started in the Governor's race.  Marvin Griffin announced -- who was the former Governor -- with Garland Byrd, who was the Lieutenant Governor, and two or three other non-descript candidates.  And we started running in 1962, campaigning for the Governorship for Georgia.  I opened my campaign in Statesboro, Georgia, which was the home of my wife.  And, of course, I didn't know at that time how much it took -- what kind of effort it took to really run a state-wide race, but I learned very quickly.  It took a lot of money back in those days, not the kind of money that it takes today, but it also took an all-out effort.  The county unit system was still in existence when I announced.  And I knew that.  But I still believed that I could win.  The county unit system in the middle of the campaign in 1962, the Supreme Court of Georgia -- of the United States, not Georgia -- came down with a decision outlawing the county unit system, and putting it on a popular vote.  I campaigned, both under the county unit system and under the popular vote system.  I won the election over Marvin Griffin.  I would have won it whether we were under the county unit system or under the popular vote system.  I would have won it if we'd been voting just with white votes.  I would have won it if we'd just been voting for black votes.  And I won it anyway you could win it.  And, of course, that was a wonderful experience, and something that I'll never forget.  \r\n But, right after I won the campaign for Governor, the -- Vandiver announced -- or the courts announced that we had to redistrict the state of Georgia, the Senate, the House.  And Vandiver said to me, \"You are now the Governor elect.  I don't have anymore time other than to serve out my term.  That's your responsibility, not mine.\"  I said, \"You've got to be kidding.\"  He said, \"Yeah, you've got to redistrict the Senate.\"  So, I had to take on -- before I became Governor -- I was still a member of the Senate -- the responsibility of recreating the legislative districts for the Georgia Senate.  I saw men and women -- not too many women in the General Assembly back in those days -- stand up after I explained to them that most of them, when they were in their new districts -- would never again be able to sit in the Senate and serve, because they were -- their district wouldn't allow it.  And I was able to get enough Senators to agree that we had to go ahead and redistrict the Senate, even though many of them would never come back -- to put that bill through the General Assembly.  Therefore, that took me up to the inauguration.   \r\n At the inauguration, of course, we had the normal things that you have when a Governor.  We moved from Augusta to Atlanta, and moved into the old mansion out in Ansley Park.  The Ansley Park mansion was a -- recently had been a residence -- a home.  It was a big rock house.  And it was not the most delightful place to live.  In fact, many of things didn't function that normally would function in a house.  The type of labor that you had was prison labor.  My wife, god bless her soul, said to Ben Fortson, who was the Secretary of State, \"I don't know whether I would like to live in a house being manned by prison labor.\"  Mr. Fortson said, \"Well, if you don't want to do that, we'll hire some civilian labor.\"  Well, he hired some civilian labor.  He was in charge of the upkeep of the mansion.  Of course, civilian labor came to work at eight o'clock in the morning, and got off at five o'clock in the afternoon.  Prison labor came to work at whatever time you needed them in the morning, and didn't go back to the prison till sometime when you needed them -- when you finished later in the evening.  So, after that short period of time, my wife said, \"You know, I wouldn't mind going back to prison labor. See if we can do that.\"  So we did that.  And, of course, we lived in that mansion through the four years that I was Governor.  But we knew -- and I knew -- from the very beginning, that that was not the kind of mansion that Georgia needed for the kind of state that we were.  So, I undertook while I was Governor, the job of building the new mansion, knowing that I would never live in it.  Because you can't build a mansion for yourself, you've got to build it for whoever will succeed you.  We were able, through my wife's efforts and the efforts of many other good Georgians, to put together the land out on West Paces Ferry Road to build a beautiful new mansion.  While I was building that mansion, the biggest critic -- one of the biggest critics in our hair -- was Lester Maddox, who was writing a column in the Atlanta papers every week, telling me what an idiotic fool I was for building a new mansion.  And the irony of it was that he wound up being the first one to live in it, and he never wanted to move out after he lived in it! \r\n \r\n SHORT:  *Laughter*  Well, there's no doubt, Governor, that you and your administration completely turned Georgia around.  You were responsible for a lot of the programs and, particularly, the national image that changed while you were in office.  Would you explain to us how the state of Georgia survived the great crisis of school integration and the loss of the county unit system? \r\n \r\n SANDERS:  Well, I think one of the most important decisions that I ever made was the decision that I was involved in before I became the Governor.  Ernie Vandiver had run for Governor on a campaign of \"No, not one.  Not ever one in the public schools.\"  Meaning, not ever one -- not having a black student.  The Supreme Court and the federal courts had come down with the order of integrating the schools.  The University of Georgia was under the gun for the admission of Charlayne Hunter and Hamilton Holmes, who were two black students.  Ernie Vandiver called a meeting out at the Governor's mansion in 1961, I guess it was. '61 or '62.  And said to the group that was there -- and I was invited because I was the President Pro Tem in the Senate -- that, \"I've got to make the decision of whether or not to close the University of Georgia.  And I'd like to go around the room to find out what the sentiment is as to what I might want to do.\"  There were fifty-some odd leaders from all over the state.  He went around the room asking for an indication of what he should do.  Forty-eight out of the fifty said close the University of Georgia.  Myself and Frank Twitty, from Camilla, Georgia, who was a House member, were the only two individuals at that meeting that said to Governor Vandiver, \"You cannot shut down the University of Georgia.  If you did that, you not only would ruin the state, but you would create a generation of illiterates.  And you shouldn't do that.\"  He took our advice and the advice of the others, thought about it, and fortunately decided that he would not close the University of Georgia.  So, that was a decision that was made by me, and I think it helped him.  He -- he certainly gets credit for not closing the University.  But I think the decisions and encouragement from me and Frank Twitty had a heck of a lot to do with him making the decision that he wouldn't go through with closing the University of Georgia.  Therefore, that was a very important decision in the dynamics of the state of Georgia.   \r\n After I ran for Governor, and, of course, I ran on a ticket of what we needed to do for this state, not on a ticket of what we were -- shouldn't do so far as races were concerned.  I have never run a political campaign, either as a legislator or as a candidate for Governor of Georgia, and used racial division as the basis of my campaign.  When I ran for Governor, every Governor that I've ever known prior to that time, had always had some racial card that was involved in their gubernatorial campaign.  I don't know what caused me to think that way.  Maybe it was my mother, maybe it was some co-chairs or maybe it was some people that I grew up with.  But I just never had the feeling that there was a big difference between whether my skin was white and whether your skin might be a different color.   \r\n I had a paper route when I was a kid.  Made seventy-five cents a week.  Gave my mother fifty cents and kept a quarter.  I didn't know how to throw papers -- to throw them up on the steps of the people.  There was a -- a black paper carrier named Charles Butler, who told me how to fold the papers so that I could throw them.  He later became the principal of the high school in Augusta, Georgia, and I put him on the state Board of Education when I was the Governor of Georgia.  But I grew up with no bias, no prejudice, and I never had any prejudices or bias.  \r\n I have always been a strong supporter, as you know, of the YMCA.  The YMCA eventually encompassed no racial division.  I work out, now, three times a week, with one of the best friends that I've got.  I met a black trainer by the name of Tony McKlinnon.  He and I have been working out for twenty-five years, starting at the Luckie Street YMCA in Atlanta, Georgia.  And I've got friends on all sides.  \r\n But I never did -- when I was Governor -- I never did get -- I kept Georgia from being dragged down the path and the race that took over in Alabama and took over in Mississippi and took over in Arkansas.  I kept pointing to the future of Georgia as a place where people can come and live in peace, people can raise their children, people can get a good education.  And those were the things that I kept focused on while all this other turmoil was going on all around us.  And as a result, Georgia became the leader of the South.  Georgia -- Atlanta still maintains, I think, the leadership in the South.  People move into Georgia that wouldn't have moved in otherwise.  Companies came to Georgia -- industries are located here.  All of those things took place because people looked at Georgia as a different type of state in the South -- than you could find in other Southern states.  That, I think, is one of the legacies that I have helped leave to the people of Georgia, and one that I am most proud of.  \r\n \r\n SHORT:  You also opened Georgia on the national scene by cooperating, instead of criticizing, the federal government, which all your predecessors had done.  You became a good friend to President Johnson and the national administration, which we all believed helped Georgia.  \r\n \r\n SANDERS:  Well, I did become a good friend of Lyndon Johnson, because in 1964 -- when he ran for the Presidency -- and I was the Chairman of the Democratic Party and he was the Democratic candidate, the two United States Senators from Georgia -- Senator Russell and Senator Talmadge -- Senator Russell went to Spain and spent the summer in Spain inspecting military bases, Senator Talmadge went underground and wouldn't show up at any of the functions.  So I carried that Democratic banner.  And I carried it to -- to my political disadvantage, later in 1970, when I offered again to run for Governor.  But I felt like -- that Lyndon Johnson had been good to Georgia.  While he was President, we got the largest contract ever granted out in Lockheed to build the C-5A transport plane.  I got to be Chairman of the Appalachian Governor's Commission.  We got all kinds of federal funds for hospitals and schools and other types of things in northern Georgia that we wouldn't have gotten otherwise.  But you know, I -- I would have been an ingrate in 1964 if I had done what others had done and had refused to ride with -- step up with and vote for the individual who done so much for my state.  So that's why I did it.  Later, it was used by my opponent in 1970 as a way of defeating my campaign.  But I don't regret one minute of it.  I would do it over again if the circumstances were still the same. \r\n \r\n SHORT:  When you took office, your prime goal, as outlined in your inaugural address, was education.  If I recall correctly, you said, \"If there is a star in the show in the next four years, it will be the Georgia child.\"  \r\n \r\n SANDERS:  You got that right!  And I meant to -- and we accomplished that.  And I'll tell you why I did that.  To me, the most precious thing that any individual can have, is freedom.  Freedom to think.  Freedom to act.  And the only way you can have freedom, in my book, is through education.  Education creates freedom, and therefore, it was my intention to make sure that we had the best educational program that we could ever have.  \r\n When I was in the Senate, I went to California.  I stood at the California community college system.  I found that out there you could go to a community college any time you wanted to, tuition free.  And I came back to Georgia and said if I ever got elected Georgia's Governor, I was going to create something similar to that.  Because you couldn't put all the boys and girls who lived in Georgia -- either up in Athens or in Atlanta -- at Tech or the University of Georgia.   \r\n So, we built eight or ten junior colleges and converted four junior colleges into four-year community colleges while I was Governor.  Those colleges allowed boys and girls to stay at home and go to the community college, and later go to the senior colleges if they wanted to, when in many cases, those junior colleges became senior colleges.  And that elevated the educational opportunity for boys and girls in Georgia, to a greater step than they had ever been elevated before.  I put sixty cents out of every dollar of revenue into education.  No Governor has ever done that since, no Governor has ever done that before.  I raised the faculty salaries of the University of Georgia faculty thirty-five percent.  I built more buildings and more brick and mortar in four years, than had been built in the entire previous history of the University of Georgia system.  So, education was primary in my administration.  I was awarded the National Golden Key award, for the best education program in America at that time.  It's in there on my -- in my conference room.  And, of course, I had the privilege of taking my seventh-grade school teacher up to New York with me to receive that award.  But I had been as proud of the education program that we put into effect when I was Governor, as anything that I have ever done.  \r\n We did many other things.  You know, to me -- people ask, \"Well, what does the Governor really do?\"  A Governor takes advantage of the opportunities that come before him while he's Governor of Georgia.  And he either takes advantage of those opportunities and makes things happen, or he let's them go by and doesn't let them happen.  And that's what leadership is all about.  You have leadership, you've got to take some risks and you've got to step forward and take -- take advantage of the opportunities when they come before you, or something's going to go by and it's too late to do it.  I took advantage of every opportunity that I could possibly take advantage of when I was Governor of Georgia.  \r\n Another program that we got a great deal of industrial development out of was the building of airports.  I campaigned in 1962, in a little single-engine Comanche airplane, because I'd been a fighter pilot in the war.  We only had about twenty-five to thirty airports in the entire state of Georgia, and half of those were auxiliary fields in World War II.  I landed on tops of mountains, in cow pastures, in other places that you've never dreamed about.  They'd have to shoo the cows off the pasture for me to be able to take off!  So, I said to myself, when I became Governor, \"I'm going to look into what we can do about airports.\"  I went to the County Commission Association meeting and the I said to the County Commissioners, \"Wouldn't you fellows like to have an airport developing program?\"  They looked at me like I was crazy and said, \"No, we are interested in roads, not airports.\"  And I said, \"Well, thank you very much.\"  So I went back and I checked into the -- the airport funds in Washington, D.C., and I found out I could get a grant for a community airport provided that the state put up half the money, and then the national government would put up half the money, and all the County Commissioner would have to do is provide a strip of land -- three thousand feet long -- to build a community airport.  My administration built seventy-three community airports in the four years that I was Governor.  That was the number one airport development program in America for every one of those four years.  What that did -- that allowed industries who were located -- were looking for locations in Georgia and who lived outside of the state -- to get in their King Air's airplanes, and fly to a community that had an airport.  Probably a rural community that had an industrial site that needed a plant.  They could fly in there, look at this industrial sites, fly back and make a decision.  Before, they would have had to go to Atlanta, get in an automobile, drive two or three hours to the location.  And they wouldn't do that!  So, we brought in more new industry than we could have ever imagined, because we had those airports!  You can't get ten thousand feet in Georgia today, and look around in an airplane, and not see an air strip in Georgia.  We've got more community airstrips than any state that I know of, and -- that was a great program.  We just had a variety of programs. \r\n \r\n SHORT:  Well, along with that, you created the Department of Family and Children Services.  From the old welfare system --   \r\n \r\n SANDERS:  I did do that.  I did that because back in those days they'd take kids -- juveniles -- that had gotten into trouble and they'd put them in the common jail for the weekend with the hardened prisoners.  And god knows what they would learn over in that three or four day stay.  We didn't have juvenile detention centers.  But I built juvenile detention centers in every one of the Congressional districts of Georgia, so that it was not a prison, but if a kid got in trouble, they could take him into the juvenile detention centers.  We had psychologists there that could train them and work with them for the weekend.  They weren't thrown into a prison with a common criminal.  And as a result, we saved many -- many of the young people who otherwise would have gone down the road of the criminal life.  But we made them productive and brought them back into our society and gave them an opportunity to become good citizens. \r\n \r\n SHORT:  Another hallmark of your administration was the Governor's Honors Program.  \r\n \r\n SANDERS:  That was another program that we developed.  We took the top students from the high schools around Georgia, and sent them on down to Macon, Georgia -- I think Wesleyan College is where we located it -- and let them learn for the first time.  They were sort of like me when I went to Georgia on a football scholarship.  We had sixty freshmen football players.  I thought, because I'd been an all-state football player, that I was one of the best football players in the state or in the southeast.  When I got up there, I found out that it was -- a lot of them could outrun me, were bigger and stronger than I was, and that I wasn't nearly as invincible as I thought I was when I was playing football at Richmond Academy.  I used that same theory on these high school students.  Kids that thought they were the smartest kid that had ever come down the drain in their particular school went to Wesleyan.  Went down there for eight weeks or ten weeks in the summer, and found out that they weren't nearly as smart as some of the kids in other parts of the state.  They had to work harder, but they went back home with a whole different attitude about what they needed to do to improve their old situation.  That was a very successful program.  \r\n \r\n SHORT:  You had a great administration.  You left office as one of the most popular Governors Georgia has ever had.  But it was rumored at one time that you were considering running for the United States Senate.  \r\n \r\n SANDERS:  That -- that rumor went around.  It was rampant.  It got so hot that President Johnson and Senator Russell called me up to the White House and said to me, \"Would you like to be a judge?\"  This is my last year, I'm getting ready to get out.  And they said, \"How about the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals?\"  I said, \"No, I don't want to be a judge.\"  They said, \"Well, how about being the ambassador to the Philippines?\"  I said, \"What would I do in the Philippines?\"  They said, \"Well, you'd help us get rid of those Communists over there.\" \r\n \r\n SHORT:  *Laughter* \r\n \r\n SANDERS:  I said, \"No, I don't want to do that.\"  And finally, they said, \"What about something like the Secretary of Commerce?\"  And I said, \"No, I'm not interested -- I'm really not interested in coming to Washington.  What I would like is -- I'd like for the next appointment to the federal bench in the northern district of Georgia to go to Hiram Undereofler, who I had taken away from his law practice in Americus to put him as the Revenue Commissioner.  And I knew that after four years he had had difficulty going back home to try to recreate a law practice.  Senator Russell said, \"No problem.  He'll get the next appointment.\"  Well, the next appointment came up, and he didn't get it.  I found out, which most people already know, if you don't get your half of the political deal up front, you better watch out.  \r\n \r\n SHORT:  *Laughter* \r\n \r\n SANDERS:  You may not ever get to the other half!  So, the appointment came up and Neil Redfield got it, who turned out to be a very good judge, and I had no problem with him.  But I had been promised the appointment for Hiram Undereofler.  Fortunately, I had in my coat pocket when that happened, the resignation of one of the justices of the Georgia Supreme Court.  And I was able to put Hiram Undereofler on the Supreme Court.  He later became the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, and had an outstanding career.  \r\n But I never really wanted to go to Washington and serve in the Congress.  Most of the Governors that I served with, when I was Governor -- who later went to the United States Senate -- said to me, \"It's different.  You're not in charge of your own decisions.  You can't make the decisions like you made when you were Governor of Georgia.  You sit in there with a body of 110 individuals, and you sit and vegetate for about twelve years before you get enough influence to be effective at all.\"  At that time too, the -- my children were teenagers.  My wife was not anxious to go to Washington.  The hippie movement was moving through the country.  I did not want to take my children and my wife to Washington during that period of time. I -- I didn't know what might happen to them, but I knew that if I stayed home and I looked after them and they looked after me, then I'd have a much better situation than I would if I were sitting in the Senate in Washington, D.C., waiting for my time ten or twelve years later to do something effective for Georgia.  So, I didn't do it.  I've never regretted it.  I  glory in the people who have done it and who have had successful careers in Washington.  I made up my mind when I left the Governor's office, that I would stay in Georgia.  That I would go back to the practice of law.  And that I would look after my family.  \r\n \r\n SHORT:  Well, in the interim between your leaving the office in 1970, you established this law firm.  \r\n \r\n SANDERS:  I started this law firm in 1967 with two lawyers -- Norman Underwood, who you know, and another lawyer who graduated from the University of Georgia named Dale Schwartz.  I moved into the commerce building with the two lawyers, and started to practice law.  I could have gone into any other one of the big law firms in Atlanta, but I would have been just a partner, and I would not have been the originator or the founder.  I chose to build the law firm myself, rather than do that.  Some others have done that, and that's not a bad way to go.  But I've always liked to build things and try to stay in charge of my own destiny.  So, I started with the two lawyers.  I continued to attract more lawyers to the firm.  I was able to increase the business of the firm.  Today, almost forty years later, we have 650 lawyers.  We have offices all over the world.  We're in Hong Kong, Shanghai, London.  We're in New York.  We're in Washington.  We're in Richmond.  We're all over Virginia, North Carolina, and Atlanta.  And the truth of the matter is, it's gotten too big.  I get on the elevator and I don't know whether I'm looking at a partner, an associate, or a client, or some fellow who just got on the elevator by mistake! \r\n \r\n SHORT:  *Laughter* \r\n \r\n SANDERS:  But it's been a wonderful experience to be able to go back to the field of law, the practice of law, and be able to find the heights that I've got now.  And, of course, I'm now at the point in life where I recently told them, \"Make me the Chairman Emeritus, and I will do what I need to do and what I want to do.  And I won't be worried about getting up every morning -- early in the morning, and working till midnight at night.  But I'm going to let the rest of you do that while I try to relax for a while.\"  \r\n \r\n SHORT:  And then we come to the 1970s.  You had made the decision to run again for Governor. \r\n \r\n SANDERS:  Correct.  And I thought that it was a good opportunity because I still had some things in my mind that I hadn't finished, and some things that I thought I might want to do that had come to mind during the time that I was out of the Governor's office.  So, I announced for Governor, and, much to my surprise and my gratitude, I got the endorsements of most of the newspapers in the state.  I got the support of most of the business community in the state.  And, of course, I found my opponent to be Jimmy Carter, who had previously run against Lester Maddox, and who was running again for the Governor's office.  That didn't bother me, because I thought we would have a very solid campaign, and we would discuss the issues -- education, the industry, and things of that kind.  But much to my surprise, we didn't have that type of campaign.  He took the position that I was now an Atlanta lawyer, and that I was a friend of Lyndon Johnson, and I had had something to do with integrating the public schools, and that that was not the kind of things that you wanted in a Governor.  He took the position that he -- that he believed in segregation, that George Wallace was his cousin, and that the segregated type of operation in government was preferred over the kind that I had stood for.  I got positioned and politicked as an Atlanta lawyer, who was a friend of Georgia's integration policy.  He positioned himself as a south Georgia redneck candidate, who didn't believe in that.  But, contrary to everything else, people, when they voted -- because of the race card that they had been played -- voted in favor of his election, and not mine.  I look upon that sometimes, as a disaster.  But, in reality, I look upon it as an opportunity for me to do the other things that I've done in life -- in business and in law.  Ironically, the inaugural address of Governor Carter was that if you've come to him to talk about segregation, you've come to the wrong place.  Integration is here, segregation is over, Martin Luther King, Jr. is the man that I most admire and the things that I told you during the election, you forget about those, and discard those.  They were just campaign opportunities.  I'm a completely different person.  And I think he is.  And I -- as a result of serving as Governor, he didn't have an easy role, because Lester Maddox got elected Lieutenant Governor at the same time he got to be the Governor.  So, everything that he tried to do as Governor was always a fuss and a fight with Lester over whether it could be done.  But later he undertook the campaign for Presidency of this country.  He got elected, much to the surprise of many of us when he first started.  And, of course, he's been -- I think, a better ex-President than he ever was a President.  He has gone out into the world and done some great things.  And I admire the things that he's done.  \r\n I've come to the conclusion that politics, you know, is a tough business.  Sometimes it's dirty.  But, you've got to be willing to take the good with the bad if you want to participate.  And I've had a little bit of all of it.  But, I've come out of it, and in good fashion.  And I've still got my family and I've got my friends and my law practice and I've got my former political career.  I'm not mad at anybody.  I'm not trying to get - trying to take retribution on anybody who didn't support or didn't vote for me.  I'm as happy as a clam can be.  I'm 81 years old.  My health is still good.  My family is in good shape, except for the loss of a grandson a few months ago.  But I thank the lord everyday for what he has provided me with, to do the things that I've done in life.  \r\n \r\n SHORT:  You've been a great public servant.  Now, may I ask you one more question?  What do you think about today's party politics?  \r\n \r\n SANDERS:  Well, it's hard to figure out what party is which party!  When I was in politics, many of the so-called Republican party supporters were Democrats.  Today, the Democratic party in Georgia is not made up of the same types and the same groups that it was made up of when I was in office.  When I was in office, the community leaders  Ivan Allen in Atlanta and a lot of others all through the state -- they ran as Democrats.  Today they would run as Republicans.  I don't know how this thing is going to finally balance itself out.  But, too often, people say, if you're a Democrat, you're a wild-eyed liberal.  If you're a Republican, you're a conservative.  That's a lot of malarky!  People -- good people -- can be found in either one of the parties.  But it looks like Georgia, for the time being, has taken the road that they're going to be Republicans -- for how long, I don't know, over the fact that the Democrats ran and ruled this state for a hundred years.  \r\n \r\n SHORT:  Thank you, Governor.  \r\n \r\n SANDERS:  Amen! \r\n \r\n SHORT:  Amen!  \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n "},{"id":"gych_rogp_002","title":"T. Rogers Wade on Herman Talmadge, 07 September 2006.","collection_id":"gych_rogp","collection_title":"Reflections on Georgia Politics oral history collection, 2006-2010","dcterms_contributor":["Short, Bob, 1932-"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, Georgia, 32.75042, -83.50018"],"dcterms_creator":["Wade, T. Rogers","Short, Bob, 1932"],"dc_date":["2006-09-07"],"dcterms_description":["Finding aid available in repository.","T. Rogers Wade discusses Herman Talmadge's early life, the 1946-47 \"three governors controversy,\" segregation, his career in the U.S. Senate, the 1980 senate race, and personal struggles.","T. Rogers Wade served as chief of staff to Senator Herman Talmadge from 1973 to 1980 in Washington, D.C. He then returned to Georgia, and became vice president of Watkins Associated Industries. In 1985, he helped open the public affairs law firm of Edington, Wade and Associates, from which he retired as senior partner. He was a founding member of Leadership Georgia. Wade was active on many boards and foundations, including the Georgia Chamber of Commerce, the Richard B. Russell Foundation, and the Fanning Leadership Institute at the University of Georgia. He was chairman of the board in the Georgia Public Policy Foundation, a free-market think-tank.","Interviewed by Bob Short."],"dc_format":["video/mp4"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection","http://sclfind.libs.uga.edu/sclfind/view?docId=ead/RBRL220ROGP.xml"],"dcterms_subject":["United States--Congress--Senate","Governors--Georgia","Legislators--Georgia","Segregation--United States","Segregation--Georgia","Governors","Legislators","Politics and government","Segregation","Georgia--Politics and government","Georgia","United States"],"dcterms_title":["T. Rogers Wade on Herman Talmadge, 07 September 2006."],"dcterms_type":["MovingImage"],"dcterms_provenance":["Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-002/video"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection, ROGP 002, Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Libraries, Athens, Georgia, 30602-1641."],"dlg_local_right":["Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule."],"dcterms_medium":["oral histories (literary works)","interviews"],"dcterms_extent":["1 interview (90 min.) : sd., col."],"dlg_subject_personal":["Wade, T. Rogers","Talmadge, Herman E. (Herman Eugene), 1913-2002"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"gych_rbrl1750ohd_009","title":"Carl E. Sanders interviewed by George Justice, 17 August 2004.","collection_id":"gych_rbrl1750ohd","collection_title":"Richard B. Russell Library Oral History Documentary collection, 1986-2006","dcterms_contributor":null,"dcterms_spatial":["United States, Georgia, 32.75042, -83.50018"],"dcterms_creator":["Sanders, Carl, 1925-2014","Justice, George"],"dc_date":["2004-08-17"],"dcterms_description":["Carl E. Sanders was born in Augusta, Georgia on May 15, 1925. He attended the University of Georgia, where he accepted a football scholarship. In 1943, before he could finish his college education, he enlisted in the Air Force and trained as a B-17 pilot. After World War II he returned to the University, finishing three years of law school in two years and passing the bar in 1947. That same year he married Betty Foy of Statesboro, Georgia. Sanders entered private practice in Augusta and eventually started the law firm of Sanders, Thurmond, Hester and Jolles. In 1954, he made a successful bid for the Georgia House of Representatives. Two years later, in 1956, he won a seat in the Georgia Senate. At the time, the seat rotated between Richmond, Glascock and Jefferson counties. Sanders was subsequently elected to the same seat by both Jefferson and Glascock counties due to his overwhelming popularity, becoming the only man to serve three consecutive terms in a multi-county district. In 1959, Governor Vandiver named Sanders floor leader of the Senate. He went on to serve as president pro tempore of the Senate from 1960 to 1962. Sanders took the next step in his political career by running for governor in 1962 against Marvin Griffin. With his positive campaign, Sanders emerged victorious, making him at 37 the youngest governor in the country at the time. Sanders could not succeed himself as governor and, therefore, retired back into private life in 1967. Instead of returning to Augusta, he and his family remained in Atlanta where he started a new law firm. On April 25, 1970, Sanders reemerged to announce for what would be his last attempt at public office. His campaign for governor, however, ended in defeat, with Jimmy Carter taking office. Sanders never ran for public office again but worked for many other Democratic candidates such as Zell Miller, Andrew Young, and Sam Nunn. He also went on to serve as Finance Chairman for the Democratic Party of Georgia during George Busbee's term as governor.","Interviewed by George Justice.","Finding aid available in repository.","Related collections held by this repository: Carl Sanders Papers; Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection, ROGP 000-10 Carl Sanders and Norman Underwood on George Busbee; Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection, ROGP 005 Carl Sanders.","George Justice interviews Carl E. Sanders about his activities as a Georgia state senator, governor, and business leader. Sanders discusses his early life, his involvement with the YMCA, and the state of youth during the Great Depression. He recalls serving in the ROTC, Army Air Corps, and World War II. Sanders comments on his time in law school at the University of Georgia and his competitive spirit. He reflects on his campaigns the general assembly and for governor. Sanders recalls the integration of the University of Georgia, the establishment of Augusta College (later Georgia Regents University), and the effect of World War II on young politicians. He discusses his relationships with John F. Kennedy, Lyndon B. Johnson, and Richard B. Russell. Sanders discusses his political legacy, Georgia's progress, and the effect of press on the office of governor."],"dc_format":["video/mp4"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["Richard B. Russell Library Oral History Documentary collection, 1986-2006","http://russelldoc.galib.uga.edu/russell/view?docId=ead/RBRL175OHD-ead.xml"],"dcterms_subject":["College integration","Legislators","Press and politics","Governors","Governors--Georgia--Interviews","World War, 1939-1945","Georgia--Athens","Legislators--Georgia--Interviews","College integration--Georgia--Athens","Universities and colleges--Alumni and alumnae","Political campaigns--Georgia","Press and politics--Georgia","Georgia","Georgia. General Assembly. Senate","Political campaigns","Augusta College (Augusta, Ga.)","University of Georgia. School of Law"],"dcterms_title":["Carl E. Sanders interviewed by George Justice, 17 August 2004."],"dcterms_type":["MovingImage"],"dcterms_provenance":["Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL175OHD-009/ohms"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":["Richard B. Russell Library Oral History Documentary Collection, OHD 009, Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Libraries, Athens, Georgia, 30602-1641."],"dlg_local_right":["Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule."],"dcterms_medium":["interviews","oral histories (literary works)"],"dcterms_extent":["1 interview (95 min.) : sd., col."],"dlg_subject_personal":["Johnson, Lyndon B. (Lyndon Baines), 1908-1973","Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963","Russell, Richard B. (Richard Brevard), 1897-1971","Sanders, Carl, 1925-2014"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":"JUSTICE:  Hello. I'm George Justice. On behalf of the Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, the University of Georgia, it's the 17th day of August 2004 and we're at the Van Der Kloot Film Studios in Atlanta. We're here today with former Georgia Governor Carl E. Sanders to discuss the highlights of his most distinguished public service career and to provide an oral history documentation that will accompany his papers at the University. Governor Sanders is a former state Legislator, state Senator, Floor Leader, and President Pro Tempe of the Georgia Senate before being elected to the governor's office in 1962. He was the first Georgia governor to be elected by popular vote and was, at age 37, the youngest governor in the nation. Governor Sanders led the state during a time of tremendous political, social, and economic changes in the 1960s and brought both energy and professionalism to a reform agenda unmatched by many of his predecessors. Currently he is the chair and co-founding partner of Atlanta's prestigious law firm of Troutman Sanders and has been involved in numerous investments, corporate boards, and charities. We appreciate your taking the time to speak with us today Governor. \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Glad to do it.  \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  Let's begin with our first question. Governor Sanders, you grew up in Augusta, an old Georgia city with a very colorful history and one of its most interesting and important  legacies is the political leaders the city has provided to the state. This is especially true in the twentieth century; people like Tom Watson, Roy Harris and even yourself rose to political prominence and became indelible figures in Georgia history. But even the local politics of the states second capital has included a very contentious, often contentious, political history with party strife and I was wondering whether or not that during your youth whether you were aware of any of the partisan struggles?  \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Well Augusta of course politically was dominated and ruled by a party called the Cracker Party for years and in fact it got to the point where if you wanted to hold public office of any sort or you wanted to work for the city or the county you had to go through the Cracker Party in order to achieve employment. I was aware of that as a young man growing up but I was not so concerned about it until I came back after the war and after I went to law school and returned home to practice law. We had a situation where the Safety Commissioner who used to be the head of the fire department, by the way was named John Kennedy, control the Cracker Party. And after I had returned from the Air Force I practiced law in a firm called Hammond and Kennedy, later Hammond, Kennedy, and Sanders and I was approached by some of the local elders who had decided that the Cracker Party needed to be broken up because it was like Taminy Hall in New York. And they prevailed upon me and a few other young veterans to run against the candidates proposed by the Cracker Party. That was my entry into politics; that was in 1954 I believe it was and I ran as a member of the Independent Party and we successfully broke up the Cracker Party's hold on the public offices in Richmond County. \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  As a youth were you aware of--was politics a topic of household conversation at your home? \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Politics was not a topic of household conversation in my home. My father was employed by Swift \u0026 Company, the meat packing company. He grew up in Rex, Georgia south of Atlanta. He went to work for the company in Atlanta and then they transferred him to Augusta. He was with them for forty-four years. When I was growing up he didn't indicate any interest in politics and I had no interest in politics. I was more concerned about whether I was going to go to the YMCA and learn how to swim or play basketball of football or all the sports programs were not in the public school but were in the institutions like the Y. My father later, after I came back after the war, did become a County Commissioner and he became a County Commissioner when the Cracker Party was still in its heyday. I learned in short order that that was not a very attractive job. Everybody wanted you to pave their driveway or pick up their trash or build a new road somewhere. So when I went to law school I really had no political ambition. My ambitions were to go through the University law school and come back home and practice law. And when I was in law school there were a lot of students who were already running for Governor, running for Lieutenant Governor and Officers. Most of them, for reasons that I never understood, never really achieved much success politically. But I came back to Augusta. I finished law school in--really in December '47 and I returned in January of '48 and joined the law firm. They worked me to death. I didn't have time to be worried about politics. I was worried about making a living. My wife who I married in September had--actually in August, September was our anniversary--anyway, my wife became seriously ill so I had to try to provide for her. I not only had to practice law during the day but I taught law school at the Augusta Law School three  nights a week so I was fully occupied and employed looking after my wife and practicing law. When I was asked about running for public office, I really didn't know whether I wanted to do that or not. I went home and I talked to my wife about it. She was not too happy about it but she said if you decide to do it fine. I thought about it at length and decided that maybe the time had come for me to try to do something about what the situation was politically in my home town, so I ran. And I luckily won, led the ticket, ran against a boy that I had played YMCA football with, another lawyer-- \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  Billy Barton? \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Billy Barton. Later he was the District Attorney in Augusta some years later. But we had a very vigorous race but there were no monumental issues. The issue was, are you going to vote for the Cracker Party candidate or are you going to vote for the Independent Party candidate? And that's how I got started. \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  So, was your lack of interest then, in politics when you initially came back to Augusta, because of the experience that you'd seen your dad go through? \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  No, my lack of interest really was just what I said. I was so busy trying to make a living. I made $150 a month practicing law. I got a $600 bonus at the end of the year. In 1954, my first year's salary and bonus was $2400. So you can imagine how I was trying to live and in addition to that my wife was sick. I finally took her to John Hopkins Hospital. They diagnosed her condition as Regional Ileitis--she had to have surgery. At one time earlier than that right after we were married, she was in the hospital in Bullock County, her home of Statesboro. The minister told me one night that she'd never live through the night. I got down on my knees with the minister and prayed as I never prayed before. Fortunately she lived through the night. She recovered. We didn't think that we would ever be able to have children. Fortunately we had a daughter and a son and so I was really busy trying to make a living more than trying to determine whether I wanted to get into politics. But I knew that a political job like the County Commissioner was not everything that people thought it was cracked up to be, that it was a tough job. So, when I got into the legislative race it was different--I knew then that I would be going to Atlanta if I was successful and I would be serving in the General Assembly of Georgia.  \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  You've talked about before a couple of things that had a lot of impact on you in your youth and one of those things was the YMCA.  \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  The YMCA has had a great impact on my life. That's why I'm so interested in supporting the Y today, why I've tried to give back some of the material goods that I've acquired over the years back to the Y because my mother took me down to the YMCA on Broad Street in Augusta, Georgia when I was about seven, eight years old. That's where I learned how to swim, first. Secondly, I learned how to play basketball. Thirdly, I learned how to play football. I went to the YMCA camps in the summer time. They were not very sumptuous camps but I went there and I developed an athletic ability and it was as a result of that athletic ability that when I went to high school at Richmond Academy I played football and I eventually became the most valuable player on the football team, I became a member of the all-state GIAA football team, I earned a football scholarship to the University of Georgia. Had it not been for some of the programs and so forth that I learned from the YMCA I doubt if I'd ever had an opportunity to get an athletic scholarship to go to Georgia. I don't know whether I would have gone to college because my mother and my father neither one of them had ever gone to college   and my father's income working for Swift \u0026 Company was not such that you could just automatically put a kid through college. But I had worked in various and sundry forms before I went to college when I was in the high school and my dad, since he was with Swift \u0026 Company, got me a job with the Big Star supermarket. I worked from 7 o'clock on Saturday morning to sometimes 8 or 9 o'clock at night. I started out sacking groceries. I wound up catching flour sacks in the back of the store and when I was in college I came home, I carried the mail. During the Christmas holidays the postmaster was a friend of my fathers and I knew him. When I was in school, even in grammar school and during the summer time when school was out I had a paper route. I made seventy-five cents a week. I folded the papers in the morning and I gave my mother fifty cents to save and I spent a quarter. But I grew up in a wonderful middle class family but I grew up with a work ethic that I still have today. I grew up realizing that if you really wanted to get something, get ahead, you had to work and things were not going to be handed to me on a silver platter but if I was going to achieve anything in life, education or otherwise, I was going to have to go out and work for it. My mother was a very wonderful woman. She worked before she married my father she was a cashier at S.H. Crest and Company in Augusta and as I told you my father was a salesman with Swift \u0026 Company. So, growing up when I did, I was born shortly before the big stock crash in 1929. I was born in 1925 and of course I grew up in the depression. Now I didn't realize that the depression was a severe as it really was. But what happened is that we had a little brick bungalow house on the corner of Johns and Wrightsboro Road that we were buying, that my family was buying. My father's salary was cut half in two like many other people during the depression. We had to give that house back to the bank or to the insurance company and rent it instead of purchasing it. But I never really realized that I was suffering as a part of that depression. I didn't have wonderful play toys, but I had skates and I had a football and I could play cops and robbers and we had some woods not too far down the street from where I lived and we had wonderful opportunities. We had a nice neighborhood with a lot of kids. We had some football games in the street. We had a basketball rim in somebody's backyard. We just enjoyed a wonderful upbringing in my   early years. I walked to school, to Monta Santa Grammar School. I served as a captain of the state patrol--safety patrol. Get there early in the morning. Make sure that the kids got across the street when they were coming to school and not get run over by an automobile. I, as I said earlier, I was active in the Y. I had a bicycle. I never had an automobile until I came back out of the service and I bought a black Plymouth Coupe; paid $640 for the automobile, brand new automobile by the way. You can imagine how that compares to automobiles today.  \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  So, these middle-class values, the values that you learned from the Y, do you think any of those values translated over into your political career? \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Yeah they did, for instance when I went to the paper route, you had to fold the papers in order to throw them so you can hit them on somebody's front porch. I didn't know how to fold the paper into the form that you could throw it. And one fellow that I got to be a good friend was a fellow named Charles Butler who was an African American. He taught me how to fold my papers so that I could put them in my sack and I could ride by bicycle and throw the papers. I learned from him right off the bat that he was a good solid individual and became a good friend of mine. Later when I was Governor I appointed him to the Board of Education. He later became principal of one of the high schools in Augusta and his name was Charles Butler but they called him \"98\" because that was the route, the paper route that he threw. So I learned early on that it really didn't make any difference what the color of your skin was it was what the people--the person that you dealt with, what they stood for and how they felt about you and how you felt about them. So I really learned early on that I didn't have any prejudice, racially, against anybody because of the color of their skin.  \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  Tell me about the ROTC and what kind of impact that had on you as a youth.  \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Well, Richmond Academy when I went there was a thousand boys, military ROTC. We wore uniforms every day except Thursday and that's when you supposed to put them in the laundry and you could wear civilian clothes. I didn't fully realize what an impact that would have on my life. It was a fine school. The girls had a school several blocks down the street called Tubman High School but Richmond Academy was fully all male. So I initially started in the military ROTC program. I became a Corporal, a Sergeant, later became an Officer, later became an Officer, later became one of the top officers at the high school. I was elected President of my freshman class in high school and as I said I played athletics. But I learned how to do left face, right face, about face, and all the oblique left, oblique right, and how to march in the parades and how to take an old Springfield rifle and take it apart and put it back together. When I was an officer I wore Saber and had the tassels on your shoulders like a military thing. Well, all that was wonderful and I enjoyed it but what really happened was when I enlisted in the United States Air Force after I'd gone to Georgia for a year and I was seventeen and I had an alternate appointment to West Point that Congressman Paul Broun had awarded me but I thought the principal who was at the Citadel would not take the principal and he took the principal appointment to West Point so that left me out. And so I went over and enlisted in the Naval Air Core in Atlanta and they told me that I had a problem and I said, \"What's my problem?\" They said, \"You're seventeen years old. You've got to go home and get your parents' consent.\" So I went home the next week to get my parents' consent. Thought about trying to land a plane on one of those aircraft carriers somewhere out in the Pacific Ocean and I said, \"You know, I don't believe I want to do that.\" I went out to Daniels Field in Augusta and enlisted in the Army Air Core. Well, a month later they called me up and my first stop was Kessler Field in Biloxi, Mississippi. Well that was just a beginning of a military career. I began to realize, though, that most of the people that were--that I was in the service with had never had any military training whatsoever. They didn't know left face, right face, about face or anything about the military. So when I went into the service the military experience and training that I had in high school stood me very well. I later became the wing commander when I was in primary training, flight training. I had an official officer position all throughout my training to become a pilot and I even had a choice at a time to decide where I wanted to go to take advance training but much of it was because all the military had come so easy to me and so difficult to some of the others that I was miles ahead of the, militarily wise, and that was because of the ROTC program at Richmond Academy which, by the way, was one of the finest schools in the country. Was actually started, originated before the adoption of the United States Constitution. And I went back some years ago to the 200th Anniversary of that school. They had a faculty that was as good as any college faculty and it was a wonderful educational process.  \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  And this military experience led to your participation in World War II, is that right? \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Well, that's right. I mean, you know, I was like every other young man at that time. I was anxious to go out and defend my country. I didn't want to stay at home and I certainly didn't want to be classified as some people were back in those days, 4F is the terminology that was used. But I was anxious not only to go to the service and defend the country but I wanted to learn how to fly. I wanted to be a pilot. I didn't know whether I could fly or not. I eventually went to Santa Ana, California where they had preflight school and they classified you bombardier, navigator, or pilot. I took all of the tests of written and the dexterity tests that they gave you and I came back and thought, \"Man, I'll never be a pilot.\" Some of my friends and buddies said, \"Oh, that was easy. We going to get to be pilots.\" Well they wound up becoming bombardiers and navigators and I wound up as a pilot. But, there were a couple--in fact there was one boy from Augusta that was with me at that time named Ben Popkin. Ben Popkin later, I think, became a navigator. Ben's dead now. But Ben was in the military about the same time that I was. I went in at--enlisted at seventeen, went in at eighteen, became a P-17 bomber pilot at 19 years old, first pilot with a ten man crew and of course was in the military almost three years and returned to civilian life and went back to the University of Georgia.  \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  Did the war itself have any impact on you?  \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Yeah, the war had a lot of impact on me. The first thing it did, it matured me far beyond my teenage years. I didn't have those sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen year old experiences that some of these kids have today because I was in the service and we were at war and I was trying to make the best of whatever I could do to help my country. What it did for me was when I was at Richmond Academy and I made reasonably grades, I had some good grades in Chemistry. So I thought, \"Well, someday I'll be a chemist.\" I didn't know what a chemist did other than it was in a lab and had a uniform of some sort on and tried to look at test tubes and things. But I said that because I really didn't know anything else at that time that I wanted to do. While serving in the Air Force and in the military I began to realize that I didn't want to be a chemist and I began to think about what I really wanted to be. I think the war matured me to the extent that it gave me an opportunity to make some judgment calls that I don't believe I would have made if I had not gone to war. When I came out of the war I knew that I did not want to be a chemist but I had decided that I wanted to go to law school. The reason that I decided that I wanted to go to law school was because almost everybody that I heard about that were leaders and movers and shakers in the country at the time, in the world at the time had some type of legal education or legal background. And I thought if that's the kind of education that it takes for you to really become successful in life in what you want to do, that's what I want to do. So when I came back out of the Air Force September '45 I'd only had about one year of academic work in college. But they gave veterans an opportunity to take tests and if you could pass the test in any subject that you took they gave you credit because we had all types of educational courses when I was training for pilot. I passed enough tests to where I needed to take only one quarter to qualify for law school. So that was in '45. I played football that year. I returned to the football dormitory. Went back on the football team; played in the Oil Bowl which later became the Blue Bonnet Bowl. And then I applied to law school. I went into law school in January of '46. It didn't take me but a few weeks to realize that I could not continue to play football and get through law school. Law school was very competitive and I wanted to get in and get through law school as quickly as possible. So I went to Coach Butts and told him I was going to give up my athletic scholarship and I was going to continue to take my GI Bill of Rights and go to law school. That's another thing, before I went into the service I played that year of football under Wally Butts and the University of Georgia football team and I promise you I thought the war was easier than playing football for Wally Butts as a freshman because it was tough. We not only had to play football on the football field but we had rat courts at night, we had belt lines, we had to run through--we had all kinds of obstacles to stay on athletic scholarship. But anyway, I got in law school. Law school normally takes three years. They allowed us to go around the clock, twelve months instead of taking the summer off. So I was able to finish law school in two years rather than three years. And back then, which they do not allow you to do now, you could take the Bar Exam if you felt like you could pass it. I went over at the end of my second year in law school, took the Bar Exam thinking I was taking it for practice with a couple of students who lived in the same house that I lived in out on Springdale Street and I lucked up and passed the Bar Exam after my second GI still had a year to go in law school but I passed the Bar Exam so I knew that I could practice law no matter what. That's when I got serious about marrying my wife who was at Georgia at the time and who was in art school. And so we actually got married about three months before I finished law school and about six or eight months before I picked up my diploma. \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  You're talking about law school and you're talking about the football at Georgia. You were very competitive, weren't you?  \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  I was very competitive, but I don't think I ever realized how competitive I was. I mean, I was competitive because I enjoyed what I was doing. I enjoyed athletics, I enjoyed flying, I enjoyed responsibility, I enjoyed work but I was never obsessed and never felt like it, you know, I'm a real competitive guy. I never felt that way.  \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  Did you take that competitive spirit with you into politics? \r\n  \r\nSANDERS:  Well, I think I did. I'm pretty sure I did because I never would have run for Governor if I hadn't taken that into politics with me because when I went to the Legislature in '55 and served two years in the House I sat the first year and listened and kept my mouth shut and tried to find out how the General Assembly operated. Second year I became a little more involved in taking on some issues and then I went to the Senate and of course when I went to the Senate. The Senate back in those days, except for Fulton County, rotated within three counties for each district. Fulton County had the only permanent Senator. My district was the eighteenth Senatorial District. It was Richmond, Glascock, and Jefferson County and I first served the first term in the Senate from Richmond County. After two years in the Senate from Richmond County, Jefferson County allowed me to serve and for the Jefferson County term so I served a second term. The third term that I served in the Senate was for Glascock County. They allowed me to serve as their Senator. I was the only Senator and have been the only Senator in the history of the state that served in the Senate for three different counties representing those counties. If I had not done that I would not have been Governor today. But as a result of that I was Vandiver's Floor Leader in my first term in the Senate. I later became the President Pro Tempe of the Senate. That's when I decided before I was having to practice law and serve in the Senate at the same time so I was going to the political arena when I had to in Atlanta and I was coming home on the weekend and trying to cram in a weeks law practice and I decided that I either had to get in or get out of this political thing because it was taking too much time to try to squeeze in both ventures. So I decided well I think I'll run for Lieutenant Governor. The county unit system was in full bloom. Segregation was still the law of the land. And I decided to run for Lieutenant Governor. Anyway, Ernie Vandiver--Peter Zack Geer had a closer relationship with Vandiver than I did and he was going to run for the same office that I thought I would run for. So I started campaigning for Lieutenant Governor and going around the state and visiting the various counties. And I got to Dublin, Georgia one day and the head of the newspaper down there was a gentleman by the name of Champion and he said, \"Have you heard the news today?\" And I said, \"No, what's the news today?\" He said, \"There's a former policeman in Atlanta who's got a law degree from a night school named Carl F. Sanders. He has announced that he's going to enter the race for Lieutenant Governor.\" Well I knew what had happened. I mean, I knew that Peter Zack Geer and some of his friends had gotten this individual to offer for Lieutenant Governor. That would leave me in the position of having people to go to the poles and decide whether they wanted to vote for Carl E. or Carl F. and that would have been impossible. So I said to Mr. Champion, \"Well, you know, if that's the way they going to play the game I'll just run for governor.\" And that's when I got in the governor's race. Believe it or not it was as a result of that particular incident. At that time when I went back to Atlanta to my office I had phone calls and I had people coming in saying, \"Oh, don't do that. You're making a mistake. We've got the county locked up for you for Lieutenant Governor. We can't carry it for Governor. Don't make that change.\" And I said, \"It's too late. I've decided to make the change.\" So I got in the Governor's race. The county unit system was still in full force and effect. I didn't have any wonderful political machine. I was a bright young man on the white horse but I had a long way to go to get to the Governor's office. But I had made up my mind that I either had to get into the political arena full time and serve the people of Georgia or go back to Augusta and practice law and be satisfied with that.  \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  That was a very bold move going from Lieutenant Governor-- \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Well it was a crazy move when I think about it in retrospect because I had no campaign funds of any consequence. I knew that I had friends in my home town that would help raise money but I really didn't have--I was not a Talmadge, member of the Talmadge dynasty. I was not a member of the Russell family. I was from Augusta, which was one of the metropolitan areas in the state. The county unit [End Side 1, Start Side 2] was willing to work hard so I thought, you know, everything else being equal it's just another opportunity to exceed and I got in the race. \r\n  \r\nJUSTICE:  In all fairness, you had made quite a name for yourself in the Legislature, hadn't you?  \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Well I had and I had gone out on the legislative tour as when I was President Pro Tempe of the Senate the year before I announced and at that time the big question was \"What are we going to do about the public schools in Georgia?\" The Supreme Court Brown v Board of Education had already been decided. No longer were we supposed to have segregated schools but the Separate but Equal doctrine that the Supreme Court for so many years used to keep segregation in the country had been done away with. I realized, thinking about my own life and thinking about the lives of other people, that you could not have a state with nothing but private schools for the people who could afford them and have public schools, if any public schools at all they would be sub par. So I took the position that if I was elected to any public office in this state we were not going to close the public schools. Frank Twitty who was the member of the House that was on the tour with me initially took the position that we had to close the public schools and we had to build private schools and we had to succeed from the Union or whatever we had to do. But by the time we got through traveling around the state and speaking three times a day in various cities and counties, he finally came to the conclusion that I was right and he was wrong and we both wound up advocating that the public schools of this state would stay open no matter what. Now that translated into the situation with Governor Vandiver who was confronted with the problem of whether he was going to allow the two African American students Hamilton Holmes and-- \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  Charlayne Hunter. \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Charlayne Hunter was going to allow them to enter the University of Georgia. He called fifty some-odd leaders, legislative leaders, business leaders, political leaders, out to the mansion one night and said, \"I've got to make a decision about closing the University of Georgia and I want to know how ya'll feel about it.\" He went around the room and took the statement from all fifty people. Forty-eight out of the fifty said close the University of Georgia, Frank Twitty and I said, \"Do not close the University of Georgia. You can't do that. We can't wind up with a generation of illiterates in this state.\" Vandiver took our advice and kept the University of Georgia open but it was that close. It was only two of us out of the fifty people that he called in to give him advice and counsel that were willing to stand up and say, \"Let's keep the schools open.\" \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  Why do you think he listened to the two of you over everyone else? \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Well, I think inherently, I think, he felt like we felt that you couldn't have these private schools. But he had campaigned and gotten Roy Harris being one of the supporters when he was elected Governor had gotten him and a few other people to make this wonderful speech about \"No Not One\" not ever one will we ever admit to the public schools of Georgia. And I think he was confronted politically with that in mind and he knew that he would be going against what he had said in a political campaign so he had a lot of reservations. But basically and fundamentally, he was a good man, is a good man and I think he understood that education is a centerpiece of anybody's life and that we couldn't have private schools on the one hand for  white students and public schools, if we had any public schools at all, on the other hand for black students. So I think he took our advice. Twitty was well known in South Georgia from Camilla and I was from Augusta and I think he believed that we had analyzed the situation properly and he followed our recommendation.  \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  Education had been high on your agenda early on in your political career. \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  That's because I had to work for it. That's because if I hadn't had to work for it I wouldn't have gotten where I'd been in life and I realized early on in life that the only free people that I know anything about are people who've had the benefit of an education. When you're educated you're free to make choices; you're free to analyze situations. When you're uneducated you're blocked; you're not free to do very much of anything and you're imprisoned in your own life because of a lack of education.  \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  In fact you helped get Augusta College established, didn't you? \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  That's right. Augusta College started out as--they had a junior college attached to Richmond Academy, a local junior college. And it, to some of the faculty members there, used to also teach in the high school. When I was in the legislature property that was formerly known as the United States Arsenal Property up on Walton Way in Augusta, beautiful track of land of fifty something acres with buildings on it had been declared surplus. I went to work with the local people there to get that land transferred to the local board of education to move the junior college from the Richmond Academy building up to the arsenal property. I also went to work when I was in the legislature to get that two year junior college into the university system to become a part of the University of Georgia system. I was able to do that. When I was elected governor I made it along with three or four other junior colleges into a four year community college and created another ten or twelve junior colleges throughout the state. When I was in the Senate and serving in the Senate I went to California. I studied the community college system in California. Out there you could go to school free of charge in any community college that you wanted to enter. And I came back and realized that we couldn't educate everybody at the University of Georgia in Athens or Georgia Tech in Atlanta. And so I came up with the idea that we needed to create a series of junior colleges, community colleges where kids could stay at home, could go the first two years and then back in that day and time transfer to a four year college if they wanted to. Many of those junior colleges today are senior colleges and of course that program turned out to be a wonderful educational program for the state of Georgia. At the same time we created these junior colleges. We created these vocational-technical schools which are a different type of educational process where kids could learn a trade, learn how to operate machinery and if they wanted to if they were not going for an academic degree in the junior college or the community college they could go back and forth between the vocational-technical school and the liberal arts junior college or senior college. It was a wonderful educational program. For instance, in Augusta a kid can go to high school, go to college, go to medical school, and get a medical degree without ever leaving home. \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  Another issue at the top of your agenda early on in was honesty and efficiency in government.  \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  That's right. I was on the Honesty and Efficiency Committee that was set up when Marvin Griffin was governor and Ernie Vandiver was lieutenant governor and I was a member of the Senate. And I saw first-hand what could happen when people decided to become corrupt and use the resources of the government and the offices that they served in for corrupt purposes. So I realized that you couldn't serve in government and if--unless you were going to be totally honest and if you couldn't serve in government and be partially honest you had to be absolutely honest and you had to make sure that whatever decision you made was made with an honest intention and an honest purpose and not to feather somebody else's nest or to try to do something that would benefit you personally for something that you should not be entitled to. \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  And that was one of the focal points of your platform for governor, wasn't it? \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  That was a big focal point for my platform for governor because the Griffin  administration when Governor Griffin was in there had a very corrupt administration. Readers Digest had written an article, \"Never Have So Few Robbed So Much from So Many,\" and they had rural roads that were built with a little grease on the road and that was about it. They bought gasoline and saving up machines that came off of boats and tried to put them on trucks. They favored some of their cronies and in all kinds of purchasing of equipment and so forth and that was one of the big issues in my campaign along with the racial issue.  \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  So, how were you able to garner all the support that you did in your campaign for governor, enough to win? How were you able to win that race? \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Well, I think--well another thing happened too in the meantime. After I got in the race, after we were campaigning the county unit system went out of the window. So this was the first time that we had the popular vote. I just outworked the rest of the people; I outworked Marvin Griffin. I went from morning till noon till night every day. I campaigned in every county in the state. I was supported by many of the people that I had gone to college with. I was able to get the support of Mills B. Lane who headed up the CNS Bank in Atlanta at the time. He had initially was going to support Garland Byrd who was the Lieutenant Governor who had a heart attack and dropped out of the race. He helped me raise financial funds. I later, when Byrd dropped out of the race who Ernie Vandiver was supporting up until then, I got the support of some of the Vandiver people such as Jim Gillis Senior and some of them. But basically and fundamentally I just outworked the Griffin crowd. I knew that if I went every day as hard as I could go to as many places as I could go that they were going to call him up eventually and say, \"You better come down here to this county and talk to some of these people. This young man has been in here shaking hands and garnering votes and if you don't come down here we don't know what's going to happen.\" He had the politicians; I had the people in that race. \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  When you won that election you were part of a whole generation of young politicians across this country.  \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Generation of young politicians--young men and women who had returned from World War II who now wanted to do something that they had seen the rest of the world, they had fought for the freedom of the world and they wanted now to make some of these changes in their local communities and they were active and they went to the polls and voted when before the only people that generally went to the polls and voted were the professional politicians who had a hardcore supporters most of whom they gave jobs to after they got elected.  \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  And you also were part of that generation that had a special connection to John Kennedy.  \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Well, John Kennedy was a young, handsome, energetic senator who decided to run for President after he had tried to get the nomination several years before. He was a returning World War II veteran. And of course he had a lot of charisma and a lot of people like myself and others of that age and that ilk liked what we saw in John Kennedy and supported him. And he carried Georgia percentage wise with the greatest percentage of any state in the union. But he, of course, his career was eclipsed by the assassination. I knew him well. He did me some great favors; one great favor he did for me was something that I will never forget. After I was elected in August of the primary of 1963 before I took--'62--before I took office in January of '63 Fort Gordon, which was located in Augusta, Richmond County--was the biggest payroll in my county. And the United States Defense Department announced that they were going to close Fort Gordon. Well, I said, \"This can't happen.\" I'd just been elected governor. I can't afford to let the biggest payroll in my home town get shut down. So I went to see Senator Russell who was the Chairman of the Armed Services Committee in the Senate and who was a senior Senator from Georgia. And I said, \"Senator Russell I've just been elected. I can't allow Fort Gordon to be closed. Can you help me try to keep them from closing Fort Gordon?\" Senator Russell said, \"I'm sorry but I've already signed off on the base closings in Georgia. There's nothing I can do about it now.\" I said, \"Thank you very much.\" I decided to go see President John F. Kennedy. I went to see John F. Kennedy in the Oval office at the White  House, explained to him my predicament, told him that I was elected and they were about to shut the fort down, could he help me? He said, \"Let me see what I can do.\" I went back to Atlanta. A week later he called me up and said, \"The order to close Fort Gordon has been rescinded.\" I said, \"Can I make that announcement publicly?\" He said, \"Yes.\" I made the announcement; it made Senator Russell mad because I had gone to the President. But John Kennedy was the one who kept Fort Gordon from being moved from Fort Gordon, Georgia to Fort Monmouth, New Jersey. Later, several years later, Fort Monmouth, New Jersey was moved to Fort Gordon, Georgia and it became the largest military telecommunications center in the world. But had it not been for John F. Kennedy more than forty years ago Fort Gordon, Georgia would have been shut down and would have been moved to Fort Monmouth, New Jersey. \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  But you actually had a fairly close relationship with him. \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Oh I had a close relationship with him. I did. I visited him many times before he was assassinated. I had a very close--very close relationship with Lyndon Johnson who later became president. I campaigned for the democratic ticket in 1964 when I was the only state-wide official that was willing to campaign for the ticket. I knew at the time that it was not the popular thing to do but I had been elected by the Democratic Party. I was head of the Democratic Party. Senator Russell went to Spain and spent the summer inspecting military bases, Senator Talmadge went underground and didn't surface for the campaign so I was about the only state-wide candidate when they would come to Georgia that would stand up and appear on a platform and try to help him get elected. Goldwater carried Georgia and there wasn't much I could do about it but that still--I knew that it was my responsibility. I had been elected head of the party, I had been elected by the Democratic Party as governor and I felt like it was my responsibility to continue to lead the party and not abandon the party as a lot of the other public officials did.  \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  Is it true that John Kennedy had considered putting you on the ticket in '64? \r\n  \r\nSANDERS:  Well I've heard that rumor, I've heard that story. There was always a very bad relationship between Bobby Kennedy who was John Kennedy's brother and who was of course the Attorney General--he and Lyndon Johnson didn't get along at all. And I think Bobby Kennedy would float names every day about who they were going to put into place of Lyndon Johnson when Jack Kennedy ran for reelection. And my name might have been put in there along with others but I never had any serious consideration to my knowledge about being on the ticket. Nobody had come to be and said, \"Now we going to put you on the ticket.\" I think they were--Bobby was using that for leverage to keep Lyndon Johnson in line for the programs that he and his brother were advocating. \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  But did that ever create any tensions between you and Lyndon Johnson? \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  None whatsoever. In fact, I sat in the family's box when he made his inaugural speech to the Congress. I was the only other outside member of the family with one other exception and that was Mad Dick Daily from Chicago. He and I were the two members--non-members of the family sat there. I hunted at the Johnson ranch. Johnson was good to the state of Georgia. Johnson, later part of our state qualified for the Appalachian Region and we got hundreds and millions of dollars for hospitals, roads, schools, and all sorts of things through the Johnson administration. Dora, I think it was that hit--the hurricane hit the Georgia coast and just about tore up the whole seaboard the whole Georgia coast. He allowed me to put huge amounts of rock along the coastal lines of Georgia. Johnson's administration paid for every dime of it, didn't cost the state a nickel, but it saved the Georgia coast. The people of Georgia benefited from Lyndon Johnson's administration in many ways.  \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  Your relationship with Johnson, did that affect your relationship with Dick Russell?  \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  No, Dick Russell and Johnson were very close when Johnson was a majority leader of the Senate. And based on some tapes that I've been hearing recently they still, even after Johnson passed the Civil Rights Act, Dick Russell apparently still had a cordial relation with Lyndon Johnson but I think the relationship that they used to have before Johnson advocated the Civil Rights Bill had tempered their relationship to a great degree. But it did not affect my relationship with Johnson and it didn't affect--I didn't have a close relationship with Dick Russell. \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  You didn't? \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  No, no, and when I was in the Senate another experience that I had, when I was in the state Senate the first time they made me head of the Veterans Affairs Senate Committee which was a do-nothing, know-nothing committee. But anything it had to do with the state military was involved with it. And we lost an Air National Guard pilot flying an old F-84 Dog they called them back them and he died. He crashed. And I went to Washington to see Congressman Carl Vinson who was the head of the Armed Services Committee in the House and who absolutely built the United States Navy as part of his duty as a chairman of the Armed Services Committee and told him about the loss of the pilot. And he asked me what I wanted and I said, \"I want fifty new aircraft for the Air National Guard of Georgia.\" And he said, \"What kind of aircraft are you talking about?\" And the hottest aircraft in the world at that time was the F-100 so I said, \"I want fifty F-100s\" and he laughed and said, \"What'd you say Senator?\" And I said, \"I want fifty F-100s.\" He laughed and he said, \"Well, we'll see what we can do.\" I knew and he knew that I was not going to get fifty F-100s but a few weeks later I got a call from the head of the National Guard Bureau in Washington who I could tell was mad as a wet hen because I'd gone to Congressman Vinson and told me that they were going to send us new aircraft, F-86s, which were much more modern than the F-84s. They were not F-100's but they were going to send those aircraft. Now this was in the 50's. This was still when the schools were segregated in Georgia and everything else was segregated. So, sometime later I got a notification that they were going to deliver the first F-86 aircraft out at Dobbins Air Base in Marietta and so we had a big event. We had bands and we had people and we--here comes this F-86 aircraft in and he rolls--it's a beautiful plane and I thought what a wonderful plane this is our first aircraft. And the band's playing and all that and the airplane taxies up to the ramp. The pilot pulls back the canopy and out steps the blackest pilot you've ever seen and I knew that Air National Guard general said, \"I'm going to deliver the aircraft but I'm going to deliver it with a pilot that they wish we hadn't delivered it with.\" It was funny. And of course he was a good pilot and we were glad to get the airplane. And, of course, subsequently to that point all the racial discord and so forth began to heat up and it was in full bloom when I became governor. \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  Back to Dick Russell, you considered running against him in '66, is that right? \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  '66, I thought about it. But Senator Russell was suffering from emphysema and I didn't know whether he was going to offer for re-election. He had come to the legislature to make a speech and he used to have to carry one of these oxygen bottles around with him. So I didn't know whether he was going to offer for reelection or not. I thought about it, but he was determined to continue his service to the people of the state and to the nation and I finally decided that that was not what I wanted to do for two reasons. One was, it would have been a very difficult race and the second reason was my wife was not interested in me going to Washington. My children were teenagers, that was '66, that was when the hippie thing had started and I had seen too many families that had left their home states and moved to Washington for a year and then the family would move back and the senator would stay up there, the congressman would stay up there and they'd wind up in the divorce courts or the kids would get in trouble. So I decided that rather than do that I had an opportunity to build a law firm and I decided that I would build a law firm and if I wanted to get back into public life that I'd run for governor again four years later because I had to leave the office for four years under the Constitution at that time.  \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  When you went into the governor's office--let's talk about goals versus achievements. What did you hope to accomplish when you became governor? \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Well, I hoped to do as much as I could possibly do within four years that anybody had ever thought about doing. And I hoped to reform the educational system of the state, particularly the higher education system. I hoped to bring more industry in than anybody had ever brought in before. I hoped to elevate the teacher's salaries of the state. I hoped to build airports. I campaigned in a little 250 horsepower Piper Comanche aircraft. The first time anybody in Georgia, a politician had ever campaigned in an aircraft. And we only had thirty paved airports in Georgia; most of them were auxiliary fields from World War II. When I left office we had 100 paved airports in Georgia. We built seventy paved airports. All I ever asked the county commissioner to do was furnish me a strip of land 3,000-3,500 feet long. I'd put up half the money, the state would the federal government would put up half the money and we'd build an airstrip. And so we had the number one airport development in the country for four straight years. That brought more industry into this state than you can ever imagine because people before were not thinking about flying to Atlanta and then driving two hours to look at an industrial site in a rural county but if they could fly to that rural county, land on that 3,000 foot strip of airport they would go out and look at the industrial sites in those counties and many of them built plants that never would have been built in Georgia.  \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  Was there anything that you had hoped to accomplish that you didn't achieve? \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  No, I accomplished much more than I ever thought I was able to accomplish. I had one disappointment but it was not because I didn't accomplish what I sought out to do. And that was I decided to rewrite the Georgia Constitution which it had not been rewritten in years and there was no place in the state where you could sit down and actually read the Georgia Constitution because it had been amended thousands of times. So I had a special session to rewrite the Constitution and remodel the election laws. And that was in 1965 or 1966 in the summer and of course I rewrote the Constitution which was one of the toughest jobs that you could ever have and I rewrote the election laws. Immediately somebody filed a petition saying the legislature was mal-apportioned. They went to the federal court and the federal court to this day, I'll never understand, it was a fifth circuit court of appeals, they decided that both of those pieces of legislation had been done in the same session that it was all right to rewrite the election laws that they were not going to declare them invalid because of mal-apportionment but it was not permissible to rewrite the Constitution and they were going to declare that unconstitutional because it was mal-apportioned. I appealed that decision from the court but by the time that the Supreme Court of the United States voted upon it which was too late to get it on the general ballot in '66 I was not able to get it on the ballot. That was a big disappointment because that was a big piece of work that I had done and I was unable to get it finished.  \r\n \r\n[End Tape 1] \r\n \r\n[Begin Tape 2] \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  You were succeeded by Lester Maddox as Governor and the 1966 gubernatorial race was contentious and controversial.  \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Very much so. \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  And, with the Republican Party running Bo Callaway as their nominee and with Ellis Arnall and Lester Maddox. James Cook, your biographer, writes that you had some very strong reservations about that election. \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Well, what happened in that election, the truth of the matter is Bo Callaway, if he had played his political cards correctly, would have been elected Governor. But Bo Callaway ran as a republican candidate and of course Ellis Arnall--I don't know Ellis Arnall and Lester Maddox--but I think Ernie Vandiver at one time was in that race. There were several candidates that were trying to run for governor. Maddox wound up in a run off with Ellis Arnall in the democratic primary. Bo Callaway had no opposition in the republican primary and he was supported by a lot of the business leaders in Atlanta, some of whom are my good friends. And Ellis Arnall had a campaign deficit after the run off. My recollection is something like $50,000 that he still owed for his campaign and his run off against Maddox. Some of Ellis Arnall's friends in Atlanta went to see Bo Callaway and said, \"If you'll help us, when you get elected Governor pay off Governor Arnall's campaign deficit we'll throw our support to you.\" For reasons that I never understood, Bo Callaway declined that opportunity. They said, \"Well if you're not going to help us get rid of Ellis Arnall's campaign deficit if you get elected Governor, we're going to run Ellis Arnall again as a write-in candidate in the November general election.\" That's what they did. Ellis Arnall polled enough write-in votes to keep either Bo Callaway or Lester Maddox from getting more than fifty percent of the vote as required by the Constitution and the election laws. Under those circumstances at that time the Constitution said in that event the election of the governor will then go to the House of Representatives and the governor will be elected by the members of the House of Representatives each of whom will have one vote. The democrats were not very happy about Maddox but they didn't want Callaway as a republican governor. So the democrats sort of held their nose and voted for Maddox and that's how he got appointed Governor and Callaway got defeated for Governor in that particular situation. Subsequently, the Constitution was changed and now today if you have that type of a situation you have a special election, it does not go into the House of Representatives.  \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  Tell me about Maddox's stint as Governor. How would you rate it? \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Well, Maddox did pretty well. He did better than I thought he was going to do for one reason:  all these people that had been called Maddox supporters that had been running around with Ax handles and egging him on in his campaign he realized that they were not  qualified to hold the high positions of office in the state government. So he kind of took the position that he was not going to change many people that were already running departments in the state government. In fact, I made up the budget for the two years, his first two years, and he didn't change a bit of that budget so I really had six years of budget to submission for the state. But his position was that he was going over and take the Governor's office and protect the public from those scalawags that he might find in government but he was not going over there and try to change all the offices and change the people. So he left most of the people that had worked with me in office and he didn't meddle too much with--the only thing that he did that I regret was that he allowed the General Assembly of Georgia to take over much of the executive power that the governor previously had. And they created their own budget and they became independent and ever since Lester Maddox, the governor of Georgia has been a lot less politically forceful than he was when I was in office. \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  You think if Maddox had of been a stronger executive that that would not have happened? \r\n \r\nSANDERS: I think if he had ever held public office, I think if he had ever been in the General Assembly like I had been before I was elected governor, I think even if he had been mayor of Atlanta or something I think he would have been much stronger in controlling the executive power and not allowing it to be taken over by the legislature.  \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  You think that that--that a strong executive could have survived much longer in Georgia? \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Yeah I do. I think that's the best form of government. I think the governor goes out and lays his program out in front of all the people of the state. The people vote on that program. And I think the governor ought to have the responsibility of implementing the program that the people had voted on rather than the way it is now. Legislators, they don't represent the entire state; they represent their own county or district. And they now put programs though the legislature that the governor may not want or other people may not necessarily have ever approved. \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  Well, after Maddox's term as governor you decided to run again.  \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  Talk about that campaign. \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Well, that was not a very nice campaign. I stayed in Atlanta and built a law firm. I probably should have gone back to Augusta and returned to my law firm in Augusta rather than doing what I did, but I had an opportunity to represent companies and clients in the Atlanta area that were national and they were much more interested in good legal representation than I would have had if I had gone back to Augusta. If I'd just wanted to be a politician the rest of my life I probably should have gone back to Augusta. So I didn't do that. Jimmy Carter, who had been in the Senate when I was governor, had spent--and who had been in the race in '66 with Maddox and that group and who had failed in that race, spent four years traveling around the state, planting seeds to run for governor in 1970. I thought, just like many people think, that the people of the state or the people of the country have a memory of the things that you did when you were in public life and the accomplishments that you were able to achieve for their benefit and that I had such a good administration, no scandals, a lot of progress, a lot of opportunity for people that they never had before, that to run in 1970 that would give me a good edge to be reelected. Jimmy Carter, much to my chagrin, took the position that he was going to play the racial card. He took the position that he was supporter of George Wallace, which I was not, and that I had not allowed George Wallace to come over and take over the Georgia legislature that he would if he was elected. I happened to--while I was in Atlanta--happened to own a part of the Hawks, Atlanta Hawks basketball team. They took pictures when they won the Western Division in the locker room with me and some of the ball players pouring champagne over my head and these were African American ball players. Carter's campaign took those pictures in all spread them all over South Georgia, all over the rural counties of the state and took the position that I was a rich Atlanta lawyer and that I was a--one who favored integration. That he was a southern peanut farmer in south Georgia who supported segregation and who was a big friend of George Wallace and I got positioned as an Atlanta lawyer who supported people regardless of their race and he put himself in the position as a south Georgia farmer who supported the white race and not the black race and that's how that campaign was run. It was a mean, dirty, campaign. But it was politics. And the truth of the matter is everything is fair in love and war in politics. Now the irony of it, if you go to the Carter library today and ask to see the gubernatorial papers of the 1970 campaign they will tell you that those papers are still being processed some thirty, forty years later because immediately when Jimmy was elected governor at his inaugural speech he said, \"Forget about all this racial stuff that I've been running on and all this stuff that I've been telling you to vote for me on. That's not me. The greatest friend that I've got in America today is Martin Luther King Jr. and I believe in integration and I don't believe in segregation and I ran that kind of race to get elected and now I'm going to put that aside and operate in a completely different manner.\" \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  He used race and class, didn't he?  \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  Because he called you \"Cufflinks Carl.\" \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Oh yeah, well course he claimed that I was wealthy and finally we disclosed our net worth and he was worth more money than I was. But for the time being I was the rich lawyer living in Atlanta, and the truth of the matter is too nobody up until that point running for state-wide office had ever lived in Atlanta as their permanent home. All the officer holders that ran the state government lived outside of Atlanta in some other section of the state. \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  So how would you rate Carter's stint as governor? \r\n \r\nSANDERS: Carter didn't have a very good gubernatorial experience but I've gotta say this in his behalf: one of the reasons he didn't have such a good four years was Lester Maddox was his lieutenant governor. And Lester Maddox and Jimmy Carter disliked each other tremendously and they never got along and everyday they'd have a fight over what kind of legislation that they were going to try to entertain. And Maddox would be in one corner and Carter would be in another. And that went on for four years. So he didn't have too much of an opportunity to do too many things without having to run through Maddox and try to stomp him down in order to get something passed.  \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  What was the source of tension between them?  \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Well, Maddox believed Carter was hypocritical and dishonest when he ran as a segregationist and then turned into an integrationist and Maddox says you know, \"I'm a segregationist, have been, always will be,\" and Carter has changed his stripes and his colors and I dislike the man because he hadn't been honest. You know Maddox all--for all of his faults one of the things that he believed in and one of the things that I think he tried to do was he tried to be honest no matter how different or how un-political some of his views might have been. He at least said, \"This is my honest viewpoint. I'm not going to change on you if you elect me and I'm not going to be something that I said I was not before I ran for the office.\"  \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  How do you explain Carter's winning the presidency in '76? \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  He just absolutely outworked the rest of the candidates who thought they were going to sit back and somebody was going to nominate them and put them into the democratic nomination. Carter, I'll say this for he and his family and his friends, he started--that's another reason he didn't have as much opportunity to do as many things as governor as perhaps he would have been if he had not been already looking to run for President. The last couple of years of his office--of his tenure as governor he was out in the country campaigning for President. And of course a lot of these people in Washington who sit in the congress thought they could sit in the Senate and the House and never have to go out into the rural areas or the other parts of the country but they were just going to go to the convention and they'd get nominated. Carter just outworked them. He out politicked them and he got the nomination of some of these states that they never dreamed he'd get and that's how he got the nomination for President. The people never thought he had a chance but he just absolutely outworked and out-campaigned the rest of the people who thought they were going to be President. \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  And it doesn't seem that the press seized on this characteristic of Carter from switching from one side to the other. \r\n \r\n SANDERS:  Well, they didn't do that in the Presidential race. He had already spent his four years of redeeming his self as a racial George Wallace supporter when he ran in '70 and the press didn't hop on him for that when he ran for President. He--what they did do they gave him the benefit of the doubt that he was an outsider and all these other people who thought they were going to run for President at that time were insiders, inside the beltway in Washington. And Washington was in such a mess that it was time for an outsider to come in and clean it up. And that's what Carter ran on primarily as, \"I'm not one of the insiders in Washington but I'm an outsider. I'm a governor and if you'll elect me I'll go to Washington and I'll straighten out this Washington mess that's created by all these people who spend all their time inside the beltway.\"  \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  Do you think he was a better President than he was a governor? \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  No, I think he had a tough time being President. I think he tried to be a good President but I think he got caught up in inflation and I think he got caught up in the Iran hostage situation. I  think he had a lot of problems that were not necessarily his making but you know, interest rates during the Carter's Administration for the President got up to be twenty percent. People didn't have jobs. People couldn't afford to borrow money. The hostages got taken over in Iran. He just had a huge--you know in politics, let me tell you something:  you can be smart but you've got to have a little luck along with it. The economy went bad. He couldn't turn the economy around. The hostage situation went bad. They even waited to release the hostages until the day Ronald Reagan was sworn in as a President. They could have released them earlier; they didn't do that. And Jimmy went up to Washington, I think, with the idea that he would straighten out a lot of the old pros that had been around. And he had a terrible relationship with Tipper O'Neal, Speaker of the House and some of the other old Washington pros. He liked to micromanage too much. In my opinion, if he had delegated more authority to more people he probably would have had a better administration. I think he's learned that since he left the presidency and I think he has done some rather remarkable things following his tenure as President. He certainly has continued to campaign and work harder as an ex-President than any ex-President I've ever known. Some people, some of these sitting Presidents have sort of resented maybe some of his meddling, as they would put it. But he's been out here trying to relieve problems in the world. Most ex-Presidents go back to their ranch, they go back to their home and don't do that. He's taken a different approach and I think as a result he'd been elevated; history has elevated him higher as an ex-President than they give him credit for being a president or a governor.  \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  After 1970 you considered one more office in 1972; briefly you considered a run for the Senate, didn't you? \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Well, that's when Russell died. \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  Right. \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  And I thought about it again. But I had a good law firm being built at that time and I was involved with my family as I always am and I decided again that I didn't want to go to Washington. I had talked to too many governors that I had served with when I was governor, some of which went to Washington. And they told me, and just like most people know, that you got to sit in the Senate for about twelve years and vegetate before you get enough influence and power to do anything. And I was helping build a bank and I had some other business ventures that I was involved in. So Sam Nunn who had never run for state-wide office and who was a member of the General Assembly who was Carl Vinson's nephew decided he was going to run and I like Sam Nunn, knew him, and I took Norman Underwood who was one of my law partners and asked him to go over and help Sam Nunn run his campaign which he did. And Sam Nunn got elected to the United States Senate and served twenty-four years in the Senate. Came out with his reputation in tact. And I never regretted making the decision in '72 that I thought about going to the Senate again because most of the people, as I said earlier that I knew that had served as governor and when you serve as governor and you're Chief Executive and you can run the state (it's like running a big business) that's different than being one of one hundred in the Senate where you sit there and hope you can get your name on a bill. And in the mean time you just almost vegetating for years and years and that's not my demeanor. That's not my personality and they told me, most of them said after they served one term they wanted to go back home. Herman Talmadge, when he left the governor's office and served in the Senate for a number of years, every six years when--every four years when the governor's race would come up you'd always see where Talmadge is thinking about coming home and running for governor again. It's much more fun to be governor than it is to be a United States Senator.  \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  Well why didn't you consider running for governor again? \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Why didn't I consider running for governor again? \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  Right. \r\n \r\nSANDERS: Well, I felt like that I had accomplished a great deal as governor the first time. I felt like that the people had decided that they were going to elect somebody else to be governor and I still at that time when I ran in 1970 I still had in my mind a lot of programs that I still wanted to do more about. But by the time that I got an opportunity to run again I had gotten so immersed in my own personal affairs and my family's affairs and building a bank and building a law firm and getting involved in some real estate transactions that I felt like, \"Well, I gave the people the best I could give them for the four years that I was governor. Now the people selected somebody else, rather, when I ran for reelection.\" I'm going to look after my family and look after my personal business and it was one of the best decisions I ever made. Because otherwise I might, I don't know what'd I be doing today but I wouldn't be where I am today with my family, with my business, with my law firm, none of those personal accomplishments I don't think would have taken place if I had continued just to devote my time to the political arena.  \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  So you weren't really dissuaded by the bitterness of the '70 campaign? \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  No, you know, I--politics--I've been there and done that. And I've got a good record and I put sixty cents out of every dollar into education. Nobody's ever done that before or since. And I accomplished all those things and I thought too, you know, if I go back ten years later I may not be able--the Maddox thing the legislature had taken over the power, I wouldn't be able to accomplish the things that I accomplished when I was governor and instead of having the record that I have I'd probably have a good record back then and a mediocre record later. So I said, \"Look, the people decided that they wanted somebody else to carry the flag in 1970. I'm going to look after my personal business and be happy,\" and I've got no regrets and I got no ill will toward anybody.  \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  What would you, if you had to put it in a sentence or two, what is your political legacy? What have you left to--? \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  The most progressive administration in the history of Georgia in all aspect of the operation of the state government. If you look at every department in the state government and you look at the accomplishments that were made and the programs that I inaugurated, nobody has come close even when the governor's served eight years have come close to putting into full force and effect what I put into full force and effect in all the areas of government and done so without scandal and done so--I left $140 million in surplus funds when I left the office. Nobody had ever done that before.  \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  In the end, do you think that you were more affected by Georgia politics or that you affected Georgia politics more? \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Well, I think I affected Georgia politics more in that a lot of things back before my term as governor was sort of accepted politicians, you know, could do things personal benefits and things that politicians today wouldn't dare do but they could get away with it. Gene Talmadge, when he ran for governor, they said, \"You stole so many bales of cotton when you were the commissioner of Agriculture.\" And he said, \"Yeah I stole them but I stole them for you.\" And the people said fine and voted for him. Well you couldn't get away with any kind of statement like that today and I think that I was at the crossroad at the time in history when the political arena in this state changed. I think, too, because of that particular time with all the Civil Rights and all the changes that took place I took the high road. And some of the other southern states around us, Mississippi and Alabama and Louisiana, they took a different road. But because I took the high road and I accepted the law of the land as being, we being a government of laws and not a government of men, I think Georgia came into the limelight--at that particular time when I was elected governor Birmingham, Alabama was better situated economically to take the leadership of the south in Atlanta, Georgia but because we took the high road when I was elected governor and accepted the law of the land and eliminated all these racial barriers and things. I opened up the National Guard, I opened up the State Patrol, Atlanta and Georgia took the leadership in the south. People living in other parts of America moved to Georgia that never would have moved here before. Educators came into our schools that never would have moved into Georgia and taken jobs in our schools. We captured the leadership of the south and that's what we have today and I think I happened to be at the right time with the right attitude about what we needed to do in the state in order to do that. \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  Many of the issues that were on the table in the 60's such as the national and state economy, civil rights, international relations, are still at the forefront of controversy today.  \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Yeah, the racial business is still very much involved. People don't call it racial but it is. It's still involved. And the economic situation is of course very much involved today. The foreign relations is a tremendous problem. \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  Do you think we've made progress since the 60's? \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  I think we, in the south and particularly in Georgia, I think Georgia has made a lot of progress but I'm not so sure many other places have made as much progress as we have. \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  Why do you think Georgia has--? \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Because I think we had more enlightened leadership at the critical time than other parts of the country had. And I think enlightened leadership brought on more enlightened leadership later on and it's just like anything else, you get into the habit of enlightened people seeking public office. They give you a better form of government and a better economic opportunity than if you put people in there who are not enlightened, who still want to live in the past and who still want to fight the Civil War over again and all that sort of stuff, who still want to keep this country isolated from the rest of the world. I think we, fortunately, went down a more enlightened road in this state than most any other state that I know anything about. \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  What do you think is the most critical issue facing us today, politically speaking? \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Politically I think the most critical issue is that we are not looked upon today in the world in the same manner that we used to be looked upon. We used to be admired and respected all over the world for our political beliefs, our economic beliefs and everything else. I think we are, today, more isolated economically and more isolated foreign relation wise than we've ever been. I used to take my grandchildren, when I was out of office, at least on a trip once a year somewhere else in some other part of the world and did that so that they would have a benefit later on in life to being better educated about the world. Today I wouldn't do that because I think there are too many places in the world today if you come in there and say you're an American instead of them saying, \"We're glad to see you. We respect you so much and your country,\" they say, \"Well, you're an American. We don't like you. We want to harm you,\" and we've got a long ways to go to regain the credibility that we are a nation of--free nation who believes in freedom for all people and we've got to do something about it or I don't know where we're headed.  \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  How do we go about fixing that? \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  I think we're going to have to do what we said earlier and that is we're going to have to elect more enlightened leadership in this country in order to do that.  \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  Philosophically speaking, and the bigger picture, what are the marks of a good governor? What are the benchmarks that make a good governor? \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Well, I think he first has to understand the government and he has to understand that he's representing all of the people of the state. And secondly I think he's got to lay out in front of him and in front of the people that he's serving a program that they understand. And then thirdly I think he's got to be willing to pay the price to whatever it takes to work as hard as he needs to work to implement the program that he has run on. And most people sometimes get the impression, I think, that they can run on some issues and then once they get elected they can discard those issues and forget about them. I think a good governor has got to stick to his guns and stick to his programs and tell people that he's doing exactly what he told them he would do when he ran and asked them to vote for him. And I think if you abandon that process and you say well I may have said that but I lied, I shouldn't have said what I said you never make a good governor. And you gotta be independent enough where you're willing to accept the fact that you're not going to win every battle and you're not going to be able to accomplish everything that you feel like you would have liked to accomplish but you gotta be willing to say, \"If I lose a battle I'll win another one and I'll keep on until I accomplish what I said I would accomplish  when I went in front of the people and said 'Elect me and I'll do what I said I'd do if you elect me.'\" \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  Are there any governors since your term in office that have distinguished themselves in meeting these benchmarks that you've laid out? \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Oh, I think a lot of them have. It depends on what you mean by distinguishing themselves. I don't know of anybody right off the top of my head that I think has not distinguished themselves in the office. I just think that they haven't had the tools or the power to work with that I had. Now Zell Miller when he was governor did something, when he ran for governor, did something that I probably would not have done. He ran on creating a state lottery and of course I thought that was sort of living in the Bible belt and living in this thing. I didn't think that was a [End Side 1]--Good governor's, in my opinion, some of them have been impeded with reluctant Speaker of the House or reluctant lieutenant governor at times and they just maybe haven't been able to accomplish as many things as they would have liked to accomplished.  \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  How much effect do you think that the press has on the effectiveness of the governor? \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Oh the press has a lot of influence. The press can take a piece of straight bread every day and twist it into a French roll and if they twist it there's not much you can do about it. You can say something and if they twist it the way they want to twist it won't look anything like what you said. So the press has a great deal of influence on anybody's public chair. \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  Now has that changed since the 1960s? \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  Well I think it's worse now than it was back then. Now they go after your family and they go after--go into your bedrooms and things like that. Back in my day and time they didn't do that. \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  The press was fairly kind to you in your day. \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  I thought they were very kind to me.  \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  Well, thank you for your time and speaking with us today. \r\n \r\nSANDERS:  I enjoyed it. I hope somebody later in history will take the time to listen to it. \r\n \r\nJUSTICE:  Well, thank you very much.  \r\n \r\n[End of Interview] \r\n \r\nBiographical Information \r\nRBRL OHD 009 \r\nCarl Sanders \r\n \r\nb. May 15, 1925 \r\n \r\nOccupation: \r\nU.S. Army Air Force \r\nHammond Kennedy and Sanders Law Firm \r\nGeorgia House of Representatives \r\nGeorgia Senate \r\nTroutman and Sanders LLP Attorneys at Law \r\n \r\nSubject Analysis \r\nRBRL OHD 009 \r\nCarl Sanders \r\no Early political life \r\no Involvement with the YMCA \r\no Youth during the depression \r\no Time in the ROTC \r\no Time in the Army Air Corps \r\no Involvement World War II \r\no Law School \r\no Sander's competitive spirit \r\no Time in the Georgia House of Representatives and the Georgia Senate \r\no 1962 Gubernatorial Race \r\no Sanders role in Segregation \r\no Hunter and Holmes admission to the University of Georgia \r\no Sander's role in the establishment of Augusta College \r\no Honesty and efficacy in politics \r\no The effect of World War II on young politicians \r\no Relationship with John F. Kennedy \r\no Relationship with Lyndon B. Johnson \r\no Relationship with Richard B. Russell \r\no Accomplishments as Governor \r\no Election following Sander's term \r\no Lester Maddox as Governor \r\no 1970 Gubernatorial Race \r\no Jimmy Carter as Governor \r\no Jimmy Carter as President \r\no Sander's Political Legacy \r\no Sander's affect on Georgia politics \r\no Progress in Georgia \r\no America's current position in the world \r\no The affect of the press on the office of governor \r\nAlphabetical Index \r\n \r\n \r\nArnall, Ellis Gibbs, 29, 30 \r\nBarton, Billy, 4 \r\nBroun, Paul C., 9 \r\nBrown v Board of Education, 15 \r\nButler, Charles, 7 \r\nButts, James Wallace (Wally), 12 \r\nCallaway, Bo, 29 \r\nCarter, Jimmy, 33, 35, 49 \r\nCracker Party, 2, 3, 4 \r\nGriffin, Marvin, 19, 20 \r\nHarris, Roy Vincent, 2, 17 \r\nHolmes, Hamilton, 16 \r\nHunter-Gault, Charlayne, 16 \r\nJohnson, Lyndon B. (Lyndon Baines), 23, 24, 25, 49 \r\nKennedy, Bobby, 24 \r\nKennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 2, 21, 23, 24, 48, 49 \r\nMaddox, Lester, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 35, 40, 49 \r\nMiller, Zell, 46 \r\nNunn, Samuel Augustus, 39 \r\nReserve Officers' Training Corps, 8, 49 \r\nRussell, Richard Brevard, 22, 23, 25, 26 \r\nTalmadge, Herman Eugene, 23, 39 \r\nThe University of Georgia, 1, 5, 10, 12, 16, 18, 49 \r\nTwitty, Frank S., 16 \r\nVandiver, Ernest, 14, 19, 20, 30 \r\nVinson, Carl, 25, 39 \r\nWallace, George C., 33, 37 \r\nWatson, Thomas Edward, 2 \r\nYMCA, 3, 5, 49 \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n23 \r\n \r\n "},{"id":"gych_rbrl1750ohd_002","title":"A life of public service : a conversation with Judge Griffin B. Bell, 15 June 2004.","collection_id":"gych_rbrl1750ohd","collection_title":"Richard B. Russell Library Oral History Documentary collection, 1986-2006","dcterms_contributor":null,"dcterms_spatial":["United States, 39.76, -98.5","United States, Georgia, 32.75042, -83.50018"],"dcterms_creator":["Bell, Griffin B., 1918-2009","Shipp, Bill"],"dc_date":["2004-06-15"],"dcterms_description":["Griffin Boyette Bell was born October 31, 1918, in Sumter County, Georgia. After attending Georgia Southwestern College for a time, Bell left to work in his father's tire store in Americus. He was drafted in 1942, serving in the Army Quartermaster Corps and the Transportation Corps at Fort Lee, Virginia. Upon his discharge in 1946, he enrolled in Mercer University Law School, and became city attorney of Warner Robins before graduating or passing the Georgia bar exam. Following his graduation he worked in Savannah and Rome before joining in 1953 the law firm that would become King and Spalding in Atlanta. His interest in politics led to his appointment to chief of staff for Governor Ernest Vandiver and his subsequent involvement with the Sibley Commission, organized to oversee desegregation of Georgia's public schools. In 1961 President John F. Kennedy appointed Bell to the Fifth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, and he spent 14 years on the bench, returning to King and Spalding only to be nominated U.S. Attorney General by Jimmy Carter in 1976. He served in that position from 1977 to 1979, returning to Atlanta to practice law. He led investigations of E.F. Hutton in 1985 and the Exxon Valdez oil spill in 1989, and also served on the Commission of Federal Ethics Law Reform at the request of President George H.W. Bush.","Interviewed by Bill Shipp.","Bill Shipp interviews Griffin Bell about his career and his tenure as U.S. Attorney General (1977-1979). Bell comments on the integration of Georgia schools and the University of Georgia, the Kennedy presidential campaign in Georgia, and Martin Luther King's releases from jail in Georgia. Griffin discusses the abolished county unit system and on the E.F. Hutton and Exxon Valdez cases. Bell recalls his time as an attorney supporting the civil rights movement, his relationship with Charlie Block, and the confirmation of Judge Alex Lawrence. He reflects on the estrangement between President Johnson and Richard B. Russell and his own confirmation as attorney general. Bell discusses his time as attorney general under President Carter, attending the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, and his support of President George H.W. Bush. Bell also weighs in on the Iran-Contra affair, his role in the Florida Election Controversy, and the Watergate source Deep Throat.","Related collections in the repository: Richard B. Russell Library Oral History Collection; Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection (ROGP 015) Griffin Bell; Harold Paulk (Hal) Henderson, Sr. Oral History Collection (OHVAN07) Griffin Bell."],"dc_format":["video/mp4"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["Richard B. Russell Library Oral History Documentary collection, 1986-2006","http://russelldoc.galib.uga.edu/russell/view?docId=ead/RBRL175OHD-ead.xml"],"dcterms_subject":["College integration","Civil rights movements--United States--History","Iran-Contra Affair, 1985-1990","United States","Civil rights movements","Attorneys general--United States--Interviews","University of Georgia","Georgia--Athens","Presidents--Elections","Judges--Georgia--Interviews","College integration--Georgia--Athens--History","Political campaigns--United States","Attorneys general","School integration--Georgia--History","Judges","Georgia","Political campaigns","School integration","Watergate Affair, 1972-1974"],"dcterms_title":["A life of public service : a conversation with Judge Griffin B. Bell, 15 June 2004."],"dcterms_type":["MovingImage"],"dcterms_provenance":["Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL175OHD-002/ohms"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":["Richard B. Russell Library Oral History Documentary Collection, OHD 002, Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Libraries, Athens, Georgia, 30602-1641."],"dlg_local_right":["Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule."],"dcterms_medium":["interviews","oral histories (literary works)","histories (literary works)"],"dcterms_extent":["1 interview (84 min.) : sd., col."],"dlg_subject_personal":["Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963","Carter, Jimmy, 1924-","King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968","Bush, George, 1924-2018","Felt, W. Mark, 1913-2008","Bell, Griffin B., 1918-2009"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":"SHIPP: We're pleased and honored to talk this morning with Judge Griffin B. Bell who's public and private career spans more than a half century and who has seen and participated in more Georgia history than anyone I can think of. A native of Americus, he recently retired from the prestigious King and Spalding law firm where he handled numerous internationally important cases. He has served as a United States appellate judge, attorney general of the United States, and advisor to both democratic and republican presidents not to mention to several Georgia governors. In my judgment, he ranks high among the most influential Georgians of the twentieth century. Almost from the beginning of his career he was recognized as a skilled political operative. Judge, we won't start from the very beginning just yet, but let's go back to 1959 when you were chief of staff to Governor Ernie Vandiver. Those are very tense times and Georgia was at a crossroads. Let's talk about that time and your role in what happened. \r\nBELL: Well, Ernie was elected and he had promised that there'd be no school integration. After he was elected but before he took office the Supreme Court handed down the second Little Rock case in which it said among other things that even violence was not an excuse not to integrate the schools. It became clear then to several of us that he couldn't carry out his pledge, that there would be no integration. So, he appointed me his chairman of a lawyer committee of five lawyers including me to see what they were doing in the other southeastern states. We went to several other states, talked with the governors and attorney generals. I came back and reported to him that they--none of them had any better plan than we had, which is none. No one had the answer. You either had to follow the Supreme Court decision or we'd have chaos. Many people wanted to close the schools, said, \"Just go out of the education business.\" But that it was some thought that you could do that. Just a short time after that the Supreme Court held on a case in Virginia that had to open the schools. They had closed the schools. So that would not have worked but we didn't know that at the time. So there was a good deal of agitation in places like Atlanta where they wanted to save the public schools--had something called \"Save the Public Schools\" even though they were going to integrate. And state law prohibited that. \r\nSHIPP: And Vandiver was stuck with a \"No, not one\" promise, right? \r\nBELL: Not only a promise but during the Marvin Griffin administration we had passed all these laws including a new flag to keep down any kind of integration so schools could not integrate they would--it's against the state law. So we came to the conclusion that we either had to keep the schools open or close them, at the time we thought we could. So I suggested to the governor that we appoint a commission to have hearings, public hearings and let the people speak to see what the people wanted to do. So we thought of something called A Sibley Commission which has a story in itself. Mr. John Sibley was chosen by Governor Vandiver to be the Chairman. I drew it up and he said he'd agree to it if he could get the right chairman. And I said, \"Who do you want?\" And he said, \"John Sibley.\" So I spoke with Mr. Sibley and he said he wanted to talk to the governor, he wanted to be sure this was not a sham or some sort, that it was genuine effort to solve a problem. So he and Ernie met and Ernie reassured him and so he agreed to be the chairman and the members of the commission were picked by heads of organizations all over the state, like Farm Bureau and some from the Senate, some from the House. We didn't have an organization for Mr. Sibley but we found out he was President of the University of Georgia Alumni society so we put that in his resolution. \r\nSHIPP: (laughter) To qualify him. \r\nBELL: To qualify him. And he became the chairman and they had ten hearings, ten congressional districts and ten hearings. They were very tumultuous; some more so than others. But people spoke, it was an amazing thing in a democracy why people get stirred up they'll speak. And they were speaking both ways. And it became clear then we had to do something and we had to get rid of the laws and let the local control take over. And so Ernie, the governor, decided that he would have a special session of the legislature and he addressed the legislature at night, the first night and told them we had to repeal all these laws that had just been passed a few years earlier and let people do whatever they wanted to do on a local level. And that's what happened. We appealed all the laws. It was an amazing defeat actually that--change public opinion that fast. \r\nSHIPP: Wasn't there a fire storm in controversy that Vandiver betrayed what he said he would do--? \r\nBELL: Oh yeah, about like the flag fight? \r\nSHIPP: Right. \r\nBELL: In recent days. But he just had to do that. It came to a head with Judge Bootle ordered the University of Georgia integrated, that's what broke the dam. And Vandiver either had to close the University of Georgia or let the two students in. That's when he had the famous meeting at the mansion. \r\nSHIPP: Tell us about that. \r\nBELL: Well, he called--in the old governor's mansion--he called all the leaders, all his supporters, Mr. Jim Gillis, Dixon Knox who's from the Highway Department, the speaker of the house, the floor leader and president of the Senate, he had them all there. I think it was twenty three people; I was there just as his Chief of Staff. So I witnessed this. And he told a group that he came to tell them that he was not going to--he couldn't bring himself to close the University of Georgia. And he said, \"I have to carry out the court order and I know you're disappointed in me and I called the meeting to tell you all goodbye. I know you want to resign.\" And he told Mr. Gillis, starting with Mr. Gillis and thanked him for all he'd done for him, helped him get elected, told him he'd miss him and he kept going down the line. Finally he hit Frank Twitty. And Twitty says, \"Governor, don't tell me goodbye. I'm not going anywhere.\" Then the next one was Carl Sanders and he said the same thing. Before it was over no one left. \r\nSHIPP: Including Gillis? \r\nBELL: Not one left. It was an amazing feat. \r\nSHIPP: Let me add an editorial comment here Judge. I think you are more responsible than anyone for making, pulling Georgia ahead of Alabama and Mississippi by seeing that Sibley Commission got off the ground and saved the public schools. \r\nBELL: That and the University of Georgia. \r\nSHIPP: And the University of Georgia. We did not have chaos. \r\nBELL: That's right. Those two things changed the course of history in Georgia and got us ahead of the rest of the Southeast. \r\nSHIPP: And I think you deserve much credit for that. Let's move up to 1960 and you were co-chair of the Kennedy Campaign in Georgia and I believe that was a high water mark for the Democratic Party in this state. Tell everybody that and then your chair, the other co-chair was Taxi Smith, right? \r\nBELL: No, it was George L. Smith, speaker of the House. \r\nSHIPP: George L. Smith, right. \r\nBELL: Well, George L. was, you know, George L. left the campaign after Governor Vandiver was able to get Martin Luther King out of jail. At that point, that was a very unpopular thing for Vandiver to do. \r\nSHIPP: Okay, we need to put that in kind of context. At one point King was leading demonstrations--tell about that episode, \r\nBELL: Well, King had become a Civil Rights leader of the highest order. And he had some traffic charges in DeKalb County--he'd been probated--so he was arrested for violating his probation and the judge sent him to Reidsville, didn't leave him in the DeKalb County Jail. \r\nSHIPP: Judge Oscar Mitchell, wasn't it? \r\nBELL: Yeah, sent him to Reidsville. So President Kennedy called Governor Vandiver and asked him--suggested to him that maybe he could get him out of jail. And so Governor Vandiver arranged that and had him released. He had to--the condition to getting him out was that Judge Mitchell said the President hd to call him, ask him. Well Bobby Kennedy called him, actually and got the job done. Got Dr. King released. But this was not well received in Georgia amongst a lot of people and George L. thought he might lose his seat in the legislature so he returned to Swainsboro. \r\nSHIPP: And left you holding the Kennedy bag, right? [Shipp chuckles] \r\nBELL: Right. Left me with it. \r\nSHIPP: How did you manage, as I recall, Kennedy swept Georgia by a huge margin. \r\nBELL: Well, we had it organized. We got--all our congressmen were democrats. Both senators were democrats so I was able to get their list of key supporters, from every one of them. And so we organized every county, every town of any size. We had committees. And Georgia never been organized like that before or since I don't believe. \r\nSHIPP: But he was a catholic from New England who didn't have a great deal in common with the average. \r\nBELL: No, but we had the whole--at that time the Democratic Party in Georgia was strong. And if you got all these key people you could carry anything. And that's what happened. And we carried Georgia by the greatest majority of any state in the nation for candidate. It was really another thing that happened that was I think had a lot to do with it, we had this--Nixon came to Atlanta and had a huge crowd. We were worried that we couldn't get that many people to the Kennedy rally so we decided to have it at Warm Springs. And the Governor had a speech writer named Ed Lynn Bridges who was--lived during Roosevelt's time. He wrote a speech that sounded exactly like Roosevelt for Vandiver to deliver and he delivered it when he introduced Kennedy. And they let all the schools turn out in that area of Georgia so wherever the motorcade went there were school children. And there's a huge crowd of people there and it was like Roosevelt running again, and that turned it right there. \r\nSHIPP: Was Nixon being totally rejected and the people that swept--went for Kennedy? \r\nBELL: Yeah. But if we'd had to rally in Atlanta we couldn't be certain we'd have a big crowd like that. And we never could have got another [unintelligible] of Roosevelt. \r\nSHIPP: I'm right. That was a high watermark for the Democrats up until Carter ran the first time. \r\nBELL: Oh, no question about it. I think the majority then was a larger than the Carter election even. I'm not certain of that but it was a high watermark. \r\nSHIPP: Well, partly-- \r\nBELL: We had ten Georgia congressmen and two Senators, all Democratic Party. \r\nSHIPP: Partly as a reward for that and partly because of your great legal talents you went to the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals which turn out to be another battle ground of integration and-- \r\nBELL: Well, I'd got with it being a battle ground. (laughter) \r\nSHIPP: How about the-- \r\nBELL: While I was on the court about a week before President Kennedy was assassinated Bobby Kennedy came through Atlanta and I went to lunch with him at the Capital City Club and President Kennedy called at me. He went outside to take the call out in the hall, came back and said President wants to speak to you. So I went out there and he said, \"Are you bored with your new job?\" I said, \"No, I couldn't stand any more excitement than we're having.\" He said, \"Well, if you get bored get in touch with me I'll get you another job.\" \r\nSHIPP: But talk about some of the cases. Didn't you hand down the opinion on the United States or the order United States v. Ross Barnett in the Meredith--? \r\nBELL: I did. Also I had to--I wrote the opinion in the county unit decision. \r\nSHIPP: Oh, the county unit system--handed down in 1962. A lot of our viewers may not know how what a significant--that changed everything in Georgia politics. \r\nBELL: It changed politics, right. \r\nSHIPP: Describe that for us and what the significance of that. \r\nBELL: There'd been many cases attacking the Georgia county unit system which was totally unfair. Had units for all the unpopular vote and the largest county, Fulton, got six units and the smallest county, Echols, got two. That gives you an idea how unfair it was. It was patterned after the Electoral College but it was not geared to population. \r\nSHIPP: (laughter) One small difference. \r\nBELL: One small difference. So, there had been many suits before attacking the county unit system but the Supreme Court had always held that it was a political question over which the federal courts had no jurisdiction. In 1962 they handed down a case called Baker v. Carr in which they said the courts had jurisdiction. So somebody made it a file or a suit attacking the county unit system. That meant that we could decide the case; the court had jurisdiction. It had to be decided. Well it was a slam dunk when you think about how unfair it was. It had to be adjusted to the population. And we said they could have something commensurate with the Electoral College but it had to be geared to the population. And the Supreme Court even knocked that out, they said you couldn't expand it Electoral College to the states. That that was peculiar to the federal system and said you just had to have one person one vote, that's when the one person, one vote started. \r\nSHIPP: So the legislature did try to adjust the county unit system. \r\nBELL: Yep. They never-- \r\nSHIPP: And was not able to do it? \r\nBELL: Well, they didn't get around to it because it took an appeal of our decision and they were waiting and when the Supreme Court final decision had to be one person one vote they had to do away with it. They had a popular election and that was when I think got Callaway-Maddox time was-- \r\nSHIPP: But that ended the rural domination of the State House in Georgia? \r\nBELL: It did, yeah. Right. \r\nSHIPP: Was that a good thing? \r\nBELL: I think it was. I think it, you can't ever argue against fairness. It was unfair. Now, we turned the election--we turned the apparatus, the political apparatus over to people who were not experienced. That was not a good thing. You have to learn about politics and how to manage power. And we--I'm not certain we've learned it yet but we're struggling, we're working on it. \r\nSHIPP: But you have some other tough decisions, what with Heinz County big school desegregation thing? \r\nBELL: Yeah. \r\nSHIPP: And then we got into busing. Talk a little about that. \r\nBELL: I had more school cases than any judge, I think's ever had. I had 140 separate school districts and Judge Tuttle would send me to these hard cases like Augusta where they hang the District Judge in effigy and he recused himself and wouldn't go back over there. Judge Tuttle said for some reason people don't get as mad with you as they do with the rest of us. So, I'd get more cases than my share. And, but I never entered a busing order. I was totally opposed to busing to get a racial balance because I thought it was a disadvantage to the children. I thought children ought to have a guardian ad litem against the courts. Because it was almost like punishment, make them get up early in the morning, haul them off somewhere. \r\nSHIPP: But now some of your colleagues on the 5th District did have-- \r\nBELL: Oh, yeah. We had some buses-- \r\nSHIPP: Up in Charlotte, wasn't there a big bussing decision? \r\nBELL: Well, the bussed to get a racial balance in Charlotte. And the Supreme Court upheld that. And then at that time it was thought that the 5th Circuit judges would have to do the same thing. And they did to some extent. But by that time I left the bench. \r\nSHIPP: And you-- \r\nBELL: I never entered a bussing order. \r\nSHIPP: You resigned and you went back to King and Spalding, but during your time on the--the fourteen years and later you were on the short list for the Supreme Court under Kennedy, Nixon, Carter, and Reagan. Do you have any regrets you didn't go to the Supreme's Judge? \r\nBELL: None. None. And when Carter was there I never thought about going because I would have had to give him the recommendation for people to go on the court and people joked me about that and said you were supposed to get him on Attorney General and he ended up with the job. But, I had a list of people that I would have recommended to President Carter if he had a vacancy. \r\nSHIPP: Well you did-- \r\nBELL: I wouldn't recommend myself. \r\nSHIPP: Well you did select 150 new judges under Carter and up until that time more Hispanics and more blacks than ever before. \r\nBELL: And more women. \r\nSHIPP: And more women. \r\nBELL: Yeah. Well that was President Carter wanted to get that done and I was able to get it done. \r\nSHIPP: But that was not a completely happy marriage in the Carter Administration. \r\nBELL: No, but it took a lot of trade wood Senators too, to get some of those judges through. \r\nSHIPP: You resigned in 1979 and then-- \r\nBELL: '76. '79 I left the Justice Department. \r\nSHIPP: And came back to King and Spalding again. \r\nBELL: Right. \r\nSHIPP: And then you started handling some famous, very famous, legal cases. E.F. Hutton was one, the-- \r\nBELL: Exxon Valdez. \r\nSHIPP: Exxon Valdez. The DOW Corning. \r\nBELL: Yeah. \r\nSHIPP: Tell us about the E.F Hutton decision. That was the case. \r\nBELL: Well, there's a formal kiting. Some of the branches were kiting up on banks and a postal inspector in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania found--started the case. And Hutton eventually pleaded guilty, they had New York lawyers and they plead guilty to 2,000 felony counts, all having to do with the kiting. And at the time it looked like Hutton was on the rocks and they thought they ought to have an investigation by somebody to find out exactly what did happen so they could have a public showing of what happened and how they had cured it. So I was employed to do the investigation. It was one of the first big corporate investigations. It led us, in the law firm, to form a new section of the law firm called \"Special Matters\" that we still have that and it's, as you know, a private business. There's all sorts of corporate investigations going on in the country. \r\nSHIPP: All patterned after that E.F. Hutton investigation, right? \r\nBELL: Yeah. Yeah. \r\nSHIPP: You came out with a finding, almost like a court, right? \r\nBELL: I did, yeah. And had a press conference and announced--they asked me to make it public, have a press conference. Some of them didn't want to have any, publicity to what you find but most of them they will, they don't mind it. Dow Corning was one. Exxon Valdez was a big one. \r\nSHIPP: So, Exxon Valdez, there is still a ripple effect from that case going on. \r\nBELL: There're still arguing about the punitive damages verdict. That's still going on. \r\nSHIPP: And you were representing Exxon and-- \r\nBELL: I was representing to do the investigation, not in the litigation, subsequent litigation. My role was to find out what happened. And they had 14 shareholder suits pending against them and based on my investigation all of them were dismissed. So that part of it, that phase of it ended. \r\nSHIPP: Tolliver County, tell us about what happened there. \r\nBELL: Tolliver County was a small rural county near Augusta and it was a set up there. The Vice President of the Confederacy, Stevens home-- \r\nSHIPP: Little Alex. \r\nBELL: Yeah, Liberty Hall is in the capital of the -- I mean the county seat. And they had a swimming pool, there was a state park. Liberty Hall is in a state park. So the blacks wanted to use the swimming pool and they did. They gathered and had a march and used the swimming pool and this started--I was not present of course when this happened. I was down in Jacksonville holding court--I'll get to that in a minute. But this led to the school--they found out while they were there that they had been busing all of the white children over into the other adjoining counties and just left the public school black. So among other things Dr. King went over and he was, at one point, on the ground under a school bus so they couldn't move it. And they organized a move to get all the school children between Augusta and Atlanta to march on the capital. Judge Morgan and I were sitting on the bench in Jacksonville along with some other judge and Governor Sanders called me down there and said that they had a bad problem in Atlanta. He said the school children are about to march on the capital and there'd be thousands of people marching and he said, \"Arthur Bolden's here in my office and he tells me that there's a 3-judge district court case pending in Augusta arriving out of this controversy in Tolliver County.\" I said, \"I don't know anything about that.\" He said, \"Well you're the chairman of the court.\" I said, \"Well, the papers haven't reached me.\" He said, \"Well, we'd like to get an injunction against the march.\" I said, \"Governor, anything you want you'll have to file a motion.\" He said, \"Oh, we don't want to file a motion.\" I said, \"Well, you can't get any relief of that kind unless you file a motion.\" So that was the end of the thing. Well that day or the next day we got the papers on that case. And Judge Morgan and I both were assigned to Augusta. And they said they had an emergency because they'd put this twelve year old boy in jail for disturbing a worship and it moved him to Wilkes County for safe keeping. He's twelve years old. So the other Judge was Judge Scarlett, who was notoriously conservative as you remember. So, I called Judge Scarlett and said, \"Do you know the Sheriff of Wilkes County?\" He said he did. I said, \"Well, call him and tell him to transfer this prisoner back over there to Tolliver County. He's twelve years old, so he can get out on bond.\" Well he said, \"I couldn't do that.\" I said, \"Well then, meet us in Augusta in the morning.\" He said, \"I can't do that either.\" I said, \"Well, do one or the other. You either got to come to Augusta or you got to get him out of jail.\" So he got him out. And we got over to Augusta about a week or ten days later and started this hearing and the courthouse was full of people and they brought the twelve year old over and the sheriff and we started the hearing and it turned out to be a hearing about the schools. A real complaint was hauling these white children out of the county and leaving the schools black. So they had Charlie Block and Roy Harris and other--I've forgotten the other lawyers. But they all are great constitutional lawyers. And the case went on for about a week. Hollowell was there and Howard Moore. \r\nSHIPP: Who were black attorneys for the Civil Rights Movement? \r\nBELL: Yeah, right. The national press was there. Just scores of reporters, Reggie Murphy was a political reporter for the Constitution and he was there. And it finally dawned on me on what was going on. This was a setup where they were going to force us to put Mrs. Williams in jail. She was a school superintendent, a nice looking woman who was Judge Osgood Williams's sister-in-law here who was a judge in Atlanta. Her husband ran a drug store in this county. And so that was the plan. They were going to--we're going to order the children back, say they had to go to their own school and couldn't go to the next county. She was going to refuse that and then we'd have to put her in jail. And this was like a trap. So I sensed that and I during the night I woke up thinking what are we going to do here about this--have to do something. So I came up with the idea of putting the school board in the--the school system in receivership, making the state school superintendent the receiver. I asked Judge Morgan-- Judge Morgan and--Judge Carlton never did want to meet with Judge Morgan because he said he was a Disciple of Judge Tuttle who was another federal judge. \r\nSHIPP: Was that a way to say he was too liberal? \r\nBELL: Yeah. Meet with them separately. So Judge Morgan agreed to it and then I talked to Judge Scarlett and he said, \"I said I didn't want to put her in jail. And so I don't agree to it.\" So we entered an order, turned the school system over to the state school superintendent. Next morning in Savannah Morning News had an editorial in which they said that we were dictators. Judge Scarlett called me and said he wanted to get off the order. I said, \"It's too late. The order's been published and you can't get off after it's been published.\" So, that's the way they thing ended. And the state school superintendent took over and solved it. Now, never again was a school system put in receivership. But I'll bet you fifty times it was threatened. \r\nSHIPP: But that set the precedent and they knew what would happen. \r\nBELL: Yeah, they knew it could be done. When he got us out of there--later on Roy Harris, I saw Roy Harris at a meeting of the bar association and Roy said, \"Who's bright idea was it to put the school board in receivership?\" I said, \"Well, I had something to do with it.\" He said, \"I knew that. I knew you were going to figure that out.\" \r\nSHIPP: Now Roy Harris had been former Speaker of the House and was a big political king maker in the state and was one of the founders of the White Citizens Council. \r\nBELL: Right. Anyway, that was--and the whole thing finally wound down and ended in a-- I don't know what's ever become of the school system but the county's ninety-five percent black. \r\nSHIPP: Crawfordville, the county seat. \r\nBELL: The most humorous thing that happened in the trial was they brought an elderly colored man, a witness for some reason, and I asked him if he saw anyone disturbing the worship. Said he didn't. I said, \"Did you see any worship?\" He said, \"I never did.\" He said, \"There was a man there reading the bible.\" Said, \"He was a sign painter and he was standing out in the park reading the bible and that's the only religious thing I saw happening.\" I said, \"Is he in the courtroom? That man?\" He said, \"He's back there on the back row.\" I said, \"Which one is he?\" Said, \"The one with the shades on.\" (Shipp laughs) Fellow had dark glasses on sitting back there. That was a worship for which they had put the twelve year old boy in jail and sent him to the next county for safe keeping. \r\nSHIPP: Did you ever meet with Dr. King? \r\nBELL: I never did. \r\nSHIPP: You've never met Dr. King? You met with Hollowell and his attorneys? \r\nBELL: I just met with the lawyers, C. B. King from Albany was another one that was always coming to the office with some kind of paper. \r\nSHIPP: Who later ran for governor. \r\nBELL: Yeah. \r\nSHIPP: In 1970-- \r\nBELL: And Drew Days, that I appointed head of Civil Rights division at the Department of Justice was with the Ink Fund and he had more school cases than any lawyer in all the cases I had which is about 140. \r\nSHIPP: And the Ink Fund was the NAACP's legal defense fund, right? \r\nBELL: He was a fine young lawyer. And I settled a lot of cases between the school board lawyers and Drew. So I picked him out to run the Civil Rights Division and did a great job. He's teaching at Yale Law School now. \r\nSHIPP: Judge, we spoke earlier about Charlie Block who was a notable constitutional lawyer from Macon and also represented I think Southern Railroad. Tell us a little bit about Mr. Block and your relationship with him and (unintelligible). \r\nBELL: Well, he's a much older person than me, at the time, but he was a very respected lawyer that had a long distinguished career and he'd gotten off representing the governor in some of these--Governor Griffin and Governor Talmadge, was a big Talmadge supporter. And he became what we called a constitutional lawyer on the integration matters. And he was a great states writer and he thought that the states had retained more power than it turns out they had. And that was his philosophy. And he was also the General State Council for the Southern Railroad. And he had a wide litigation practice on that account; Southern Railroad did a lot of litigating in those days. So he was in the Tolliver County case, he's in many cases but I haven't--I was a judge in that case. And--along with Roy Harris and some other lawyers that I told you earlier. He also once came to see me to complain about Judge Morgan, a federal district judge and one of my colleagues. He said Judge Morgan had made the statement that, \"Southern Railroad ought to pay more than their share of the taxes because they were using up more than their share of the courts with their litigation stance.\" And I told him I was glad to talk with him but I hated to disappoint him but I agreed with Judge Morgan. I thought maybe they should. \r\nSHIPP: Because at that time Southern Railroad didn't settle any case. \r\nBELL: They never did settle any case and wanted to put everything in the court. That was just a light moment. But he was quite serious about his complaint, but I made a light moment out of it. \r\nSHIPP: How about telling us about the controversy of the confirmation of Judge Alex Lawrence and the estrangement that occurred, apparently, between Senator Russell and President Johnson. \r\nBELL: Judge Lawrence was probably among the top ten lawyers in Georgia. And he was nominated by Senator Russell to be a district judge--he was recommended as a [unintelligible] for nomination to be a district judge in Southern district of Georgia, Savannah. And Ramsey Clark was opposed to him-- \r\nSHIPP: Who was the attorney general? \r\nBELL: He was attorney general. He was opposed to him on account of a speech he made shortly after the Brown decision, many years before to the Daughters of the American Revolution in which he as speaking of the Brown decision said, \"Tyranny now comes--wears black robes.\" And Russell was pushing the nomination and went to see Johnson and finally, about it, and finally President Johnson overruled Ramsey and appointed Judge Lawrence. But the American Bar had turned him down. He was one of the best qualified judges there's ever been but the American Barr somehow noticed, committee they had, found him unqualified. So, the American Bar was asked to reinvestigate him and the lawyer from Chicago that they appointed somehow or another mysteriously came to my office at the court house and asked me if I knew Judge Lawrence and so forth and asked me to tell him--give him some names of people to talk to about Judge Lawrence. I said, \"Well, then tell me who was in interviewed the last time by the ABA.\" And he did. So I gave him some more names. And at that time he got well qualified. \r\nSHIPP: Had the right names that time. \r\nBELL: Yeah, but anyway, that just caused an estrangement between Russell and Johnson. There's been a book written about it and Russell was embarrassed by the way he was treated and told Johnson so and said he'd embarrassed him before the people of Georgia. So when the Abe Fortas Department Chief Justice came up Russell blocked it. And I was talking to Senator Eastland who's chairman of the Judicial Committee and he said that Johnson called him to eat breakfast at the White House and told him that he'd talked with everybody and said everything's all set and I'm going to make Porter chief justice. Eastland said he talked to Dick Russell. He said, \"Oh yeah, there's no problem with him.\" He said, \"There was this morning before I--saw him later this morning and he was very much against him.\" And it was all tied to this event of blocking Judge Lawrence. \r\nSHIPP: And he did in fact block him? \r\nBELL: He did block him, yeah. Fortas didn't get to be the chief justice and that knocked out Homer Thornberry who was judge on the 5th Circuit from Texas who was one of Johnson's little friends. He was going to take Fortas's place. So he didn't get on the Supreme Court. All this happened, and to confirm that, Gene Patterson who used to be editor of the Constitution went to the Washington Post as one of the editors. He told me that after Johnson got out of office he had a meeting with the editors. Happened to be in Washington, and he told them one of the most disappointing things happened to him because of one obscure federal district judge appointment and he recited all of this to the editors. And that's the end of the story but that's a historic event in the way the nomination and confirmation process operates. \r\nSHIPP: Well, you ought to know something about that. When you came up for Attorney General you were not exactly treated with kid gloves before the judiciary committee. Talk a little bit about that confirmation process. \r\nBELL: That was one of the most disappointing things I've ever had to endure and I never--I've always said I'd never stand for confirmation in any other office. The Senate has no due process. And they just grill you and grill you. Grilled me for two weeks. At the end of the first week Senator Byrd called me to his office and told me he wanted me to get rid of--to save the FBI job, keep the man in there who had it. I said, \"President's already told me to replace that man.\" He said, \"Well, I'm telling you don't replace him.\" I said, \"I have to do what the President says.\" He said, \"Well, I'll tell you what I'm going to extend your hearing for another week and everybody in the country will come out of the woodwork and testify against you.\" I said, \"Well, you do what you have to do because I'm going to do what I have to do.\" And that's what he did. \r\nSHIPP: And in fact a large number of people did testify. \r\nBELL: Right. Including Julian Bond and a number of people they found here in Atlanta. And they--after one day of that I asked Senator Eastland who was Chairman if I could be excused so I left and I didn't stay in the Senate the last four days. I didn't want to sit there and have these people--I went back then to see if they had any questions they wanted to ask me. \r\nSHIPP: We spoke earlier about you being on the short list for the Supreme Court several times. Do you think you would have had to endure that same kind of grilling? \r\nBELL: Oh, absolutely. That was--until the Boyt and Thomas hearings I think mine was one of the worst. \r\nSHIPP: And you were not represented by counsel? \r\nBELL: I didn't have any lawyer. I just sat there by myself. I didn't have any dolts and didn't have anyone sitting with me. \r\nSHIPP: And you had no security. \r\nBELL: No security. \r\nSHIPP: Tell me why you had no security, not much while you were Attorney General, tell me why you-- \r\nBELL: I had a car, and I had a driver. And that's all. And somebody asked me why I didn't want security and I said, \"Well, I've been a federal judge in the south and I've spent many hearing days in Mississippi and Alabama and places like that. Nobody's ever bothered me yet so I don't believe I'm going to be bothered in Washington.\" And so I never did have any security. \r\nSHIPP: It's my understanding, you tell me whether I'm accurate or not, but the entire Georgia delegation with one exception, supported you for Attorney General-- \r\nBELL: Right-- \r\nSHIPP: And Congressman Carl Vinson had some reluctance? \r\nBELL: He had his own candidate. And he was holding out. I think it was first--the senators recommended three of us and they told me that they told Bobby Kennedy, the Attorney General, to take their recommendation in alphabetical order but they were for the first name, that's me. So nine members of the House were asked by the Justice Department which one they favored and nine of them voted for me. Senator Vinson, Congressman Vinson voted for another man from Macon and it looked like he was going to block me after he didn't get it. He got upset about it, apparently. So Mr. John Sibley came into my office at the law firm said, \"I'm going to ride the train. I'm going to get the train, go up there and talk to Carl Vinson about this.\" And he said, \"He shouldn't be holding you up.\" They were friends from Milledgeville. Mr. Sibley moved to Atlanta from Milledgeville. And he came back and said he's going to withdraw his objection, he's going to support you too. So I finally ended up--but ordinarily you don't ask House members. This is unprecedented at the time. \r\nSHIPP: But Vinson had been there so long that he was the Dean of Washington. \r\nBELL: And President Kennedy's been on his committee when he was in the congress, in the House. And he was a father-figure to a lot of these people. He's a man of great influence. And he probably, if he hadn't withdrawn his objection I probably wouldn't have gotten that appointment. \r\nSHIPP: Moving back again, tell me a little bit about your association with Frank Myers in your native Americus when you-- \r\nBELL: Frank is a lawyer in Americus; he's retired now. We grew up together. He was a Navy pilot during World War II and when we got back a lot of us decided we'd go to law school. And I was going to Georgia, he went to Georgia, and I was on the way to Georgia and on the way there--I had planned to go to Mercer before the war. I stopped in Macon to see if and ask the Dean if he could get me a job in a law firm while I was going to school. And he said if I made good grades the first quarter he'd guarantee me a job. At the time I didn't realize how many -- they hadn't reduced any lawyers during World War II so everybody needed a lawyer but I didn't know that. And he got me a job; he was true to his word. Frank went on to Georgia and we kept up with each other and then at one point we decided we'd open a law office together in Americus. And Frank is a person I admire greatly because when he opened his office he said that, \"I'm going to never turn anybody down who needed representation.\" And he took some of the worst cases and he's almost like the lawyer in To Kill a Mockingbird. I mean, he took cases that you can't imagine what some of them were like, you know, representing a black who was accused of raping a deputy sheriff's daughter and he got an acquittal. That kind of a case. \r\nSHIPP: In South Georgia? \r\nBELL: Yeah. He just had a successful life and his health finally failed and so he'd been up to Duke two or three times and they told him he had to retire so he retired. But he was--he defended [unintelligible], some of the people out there. He'd take on popular causes. Not too many lawyers in small towns want to do things like that. \r\nSHIPP: Going back to the early part of your-- \r\nBELL: You have to admire--I really admire lawyers who do things like that, who will take on popular causes. Mr. Hughes Spalding would do the same thing in Atlanta. He took the case of Dr. Clements when he was elected to the school board and the city Democratic Committee claimed he was a communist. \r\nSHIPP: I remember that. \r\nBELL: Yeah. Judge Walden, Colonel Walden came up there to see Mr. Spalding said, \"I need you to help me.\" He took the case. He'd do things like that. He thought it was part of a lawyer's duty and Frank Myers is a lawyer that cut. \r\nSHIPP: When you went to Mercer you went four quarters passed the Bar and started practicing, is that correct? \r\nBELL: Yeah. Well I also continue to go to school. \r\nSHIPP: And you were with the City Attorney at Warner Robbins at the same time? \r\nBELL: I was but I had to get me a degree. \r\nSHIPP: Fast forward again to the time you were Attorney General with Carter. During that three of three and a half years you served in that administration. What was the most difficult thing you faced during that time? \r\nBELL: I really never had a case that I thought was all that difficult. I guess it's because I'd had all these hard cases as a Federal Judge. By comparison, I never ran across anything quite--that was any tougher than what I'd already been used to. But I found the morale of the department was so low. It was shortly after Watergate and I perceived that my highest and best use would be to restore the morale of the department. So I spent a lot of time doing that. I created a special office for improvements in the administration of justice. Brought some professors in to work on that and we were able to get a lot of things done that couldn't do. The courts can't lobby. The Congress frowns very much on a judge lobbying. And so a lot of the things that we did in that office the Supreme Court would ask us to do, or the Judicial Council of the United States--or conference, judicial conference of the United States which is headed by the chief justice and some lower court judges. \r\nBELL:--and some lower court judges. And we reformed the bankruptcy laws and we created a magistrate and made that into a more meaningful office. Created a court in Washington, special court of appeals that handles patent cases. Did a lot of things like that. And then I was able to get a recruit, Judge William Webster to run to the FBI, got the FBI in good shape. Changed the mission of the FBI, stop chasing car thieves and bank robbers and started getting into more sophisticated things. And it just a period of time where things needed change and we were able to make changes and restore the morale; morale went way up. \r\nSHIPP: In 1980 you led the American Delegation to the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe and you served as co-chairman of the Attorney General's national task force on violent crime? \r\nBELL: Right. \r\nSHIPP: At that time did you have any idea that we would be facing the kind of international terrorism that we face now? What were the matters that you dealt with mostly? \r\nBELL: No, never could--we had all these, we had thirty-four nations represented at this conference in Madrid. And nobody thought anything about any terrorism. And we had spirited debates and I had to make a speech against Soviet Union, course that was what's going on those days. They made one against us. Every head of delegation made a speech. In fact, one of my most humorous stories that happened happened at that meeting. The--we had simultaneous translation. The head of the British Delegation told me he couldn't understand a thing I was saying on account of my accent. So he switched to the French channel and had no problem after that [BOTH laugh]. But terrorism was not mentioned. We couldn't start the meeting because it--a continuation of the meeting, I think the last one was at Helsinki and Parliamentary devices of the Soviets kept us from starting the meeting. And finally the Prime Minister of Spain had us come over to his office, it's 4 o'clock in the morning. We'd been up all night trying to start the meeting and broke the log jam and we got started at 5 a.m. My wife was with me and when I got back to the hotel she said, \"Have you gone crazy? Where have you been?\" [SHIPP laughs] But there wasn't any terrorism in the air then. Nobody thought anything like that. \r\nSHIPP: Cold War still going on. \r\nBELL: Cold War was it. We seem to have to have a preoccupation with something. Right now terrorism is a big thing. \r\nSHIPP: You were a life-long democrat, very active democrat. Very enthusiastic and very successful democrat yet when President Bush the elder started running for office you supported him and you were a key advisor to him and you had represented him in Iran Contra. Would you talk about that relationship some? \r\nBELL: Yeah. I've forgotten, who'd he run against? Dukakis. \r\nSHIPP: He ran against Dukakis and he ran against Mondale. \r\nBELL: Yeah. The first time -- no Mondale ran against Reagan. \r\nSHIPP: That's right. Right. He ran against Dukakis in '88. \r\nBELL: Yeah, that's when I voted for President Bush but I didn't take any active role. I don't think I told anybody I voted for him. Didn't--made no public announcement of it. But I met President Bush when he was head of the CIA and I was Attorney General. And he called me to ask me to get him relieved because he was embarrassed to be up there with all the democrats. Said, \"All my friends are gone and I'm still stuck out here at the CIA. See if you can't get something done.\" Well, we'd had a delay in picking the head of the CIA because President Carter had in mind a man who it turned out was a conscientious objector in World War II and ten senators called me over to the meeting and told me to tell President Carter they didn't want to embarrass him but they couldn't confirm him. So he had to find somebody else then. So there was a delay. So that's when I met President Bush the first time, and I liked him. And then while he was President I happened to be in Washington for some reason and I was in the White House and I was told that President Bush wanted to see me. He knew I was in the White House. So I went up to his office, the oval office and he started he said, \"Where'd you get such a sun tan?\" I said, \"Well, I've got a house at Sea Island, I've been out in the sun playing golf down there.\" He said, \"I went there on my honeymoon. I never have been back. I'd like to go back.\" Said, \"Get me up a golf game and I'll stop there on a trip somewhere.\" Well it turned out he and Barbara finally decided they'd come down for the weekend. So they came down and stayed at the hotel and first time they'd been back since their honeymoon. And then one other time I did something with him-- \r\nSHIPP: How'd you get involved in the Iran Contra? \r\nBELL: I'm going to tell you. I was playing golf. I'd been reading about it in the newspaper and I was down at Sea Island playing golf and I got a call and a messenger came out on the golf course and said, \"The White House is calling you.\" And I said, \"Well, hit the ball, let's go. I don't ever respond to the White House. They got to have a name before I'll call back. Hundreds of people working at the White House.\" So these guys I was playing golf with sort of startled that I didn't rush in. Well we got in about 45 minutes later and I returned the call and said, \"President Bush is looking for you. He wants to talk to you.\" Of course I felt terrible then. Still I hadn't called in to begin with. But he said, \"I've got a problem here. Iran Contra--the special prosecutor Judge Walsh has named me now as a subject of his investigation after I gave these pardons and I'd like to get you to represent me.\" Said, \"I've been using Boyden Gray because he was the White House counsel but I need some outside advice.\" So I went on up there and started representing him and we got, found a way out of it. Turned out he had a diary that he'd been producing all these records he forgot to produce a diary that he'd kept a short period of time, two-three years earlier when he was Vice President. That got to be a big point of controversy with Ward and had some personal references in it. I wouldn't produce it unless he'd let me redact those things and he wouldn't do it and I finally compromised it by letting Ward read it and then he gave up, we got that part of it settled. And then he dropped the charges later. \r\nSHIPP: Well, now, when President Bush the elder ran against Bill Clinton, where were your support and sympathies? \r\nBELL: Oh, I supported President Bush by that time. I did it for a simple reason, I didn't think Clinton was qualified. He'd only been the governor of Arkansas. He never worked in Washington a single day and it blew my mind that he could be as qualified as Bush was who had all this foreign policy experience, CIA experience, and whatnot. It turned out Clinton had been studying all his life, I guess to be President and he knew a lot about Washington even though he hadn't been there. But, I didn't support it. \r\nSHIPP: But then four years into that he ran against Senator Dole-- \r\nBELL: And I represented Dole. \r\nSHIPP: You represented Dole? \r\nBELL: I didn't represent him, I helped him. \r\nSHIPP: So you, by that time, had pretty well left the Democratic Party? \r\nBELL: Yeah, I introduced Senator Dole to the students at Georgia Tech the weekend before the election. \r\nSHIPP: And then-- \r\nBELL: Told them if they would elect him they would have a drug-free White House. [That] got the biggest hand of the night. Bigger hand than he got. (Shipp laughs). \r\nSHIPP: Then you represented George W. Bush when he was elected and you were involved in the Florida election controversy. Tell us about that. \r\nBELL: Well I didn't do much down there. Jim Baker was actually the lawyer in charge of all the other lawyers. And they assigned me to go watch the ballot counting in Palm Beach, which I did. It seemed to me that they were doing a pretty good job at Palm Beach and so I reported back and I went in to talk with the three election officials. First thing they wanted to do was get my autograph. \r\nSHIPP: Must have made the other side a little nervous. \r\nBELL: Yeah. We were--anyway, we had a nice visit. They showed me what they were doing if a ballot had any votes where the hole was punched all the way through they counted that ballot because that indicated to them the person knew how to vote and that the machine was working. I thought that was the way they should have been doing it in Fort Lauderdale and these other places, which they weren't doing because we sent people to Fort Lauderdale and they were not doing that. And then I went over to Tallahassee later on and met with Jim Baker and went over some briefs that were being filed and then I--when the case got in the Supreme Court I represented some think tank, I've forgotten who it was, I think it was maybe one run by-- \r\nSHIPP: Who--it wasn't Hudson or Kato? \r\nBELL: No, it was another one. What's the preachers name down there? Robertson? \r\nSHIPP: Robertson, right. \r\nBELL: Robertson, it's one they back. I've forgotten what it is, anyway they employed me to file amicus briefs and we had a young lawyer in the Washington office that did most of the work on the briefs and he's a young man now who's a Deputy Solicitor General, argues in the Supreme Court all the time. But we filed two or three different briefs for that group. That was a client. \r\nSHIPP: Coming forward a little bit, you also were an advisor to Defense Secretary Rumsfeld on military tribunals and of course-- \r\nBELL: On the rules. \r\nSHIPP: On the rules and of course that is suddenly back in the news big time, military tribunals and the treatment of prisoners and everything. Discuss your role in that matter and discuss your views. \r\nBELL: Well we made the rules for the military tribunal and so far they have not had a single trial and it's designed for the Guantanamo prisoners about--I don't think there's any complaints about them. And I've now been appointed to the review panel of the military tribunal which is like the court of appeals, the same work I used to do. \r\nSHIPP: Right. \r\nBELL: For those same Guantanamo cases whenever they're tried. They haven't been tried yet, so there's nothing to do and I have not been sworn in but when I am sworn in I told them I'd be glad to do this as a volunteer, you know, not charge the government for doing it. They said, No, this was a military tribunal. You had to be an officer in the military to serve on the review panel. So I'm going to be made a Major General, commissioned as a Major General to just to do this appellate review work. \r\nSHIPP: Well you served in the army you came out a Major, is that right? \r\nBELL: Major. Right. \r\nSHIPP: In World War II? \r\nBELL: It's a big jump in rank. (BOTH laugh) I recently had to go to Walter Reid Hospital to get examined. \r\nSHIPP: To go back to the military (Shipp laughs). \r\nBELL: I think--I'm sure they had to give me some waivers on many of my ailments, but I don't think it's going to take more than two or three months to do this. Once they have a trial. They never have had a trial yet. \r\nSHIPP: What's your view of all the controversy going on now about the treatment of prisoners and talk about the Geneva Convention and-- \r\nBELL: Well, you know, I don't really want to say much about that because I'm not--I haven't studied the law of war yet and I have to get up to date on all those things. But the rules that were made up for the Guantanamo prisoners are good rules. They're almost the same, almost as good as soldiers get, our own soldiers get. And the review tribunal I've seen those rules and we can actually reduce sentences. We can't increase them but we can reduce sentences. And then we can be overruled by the President and I'm assuming that means the Secretary of Defense as well since he works for the President. So it seems to me that's a good system. Now those people over their--they're holding in Iraq, some of those people will be released, some of them will be tried by the new Iraqi government. I haven't heard anything about any of them being tried by the U.S., same with Afghanistan. The only one I've heard anything about being tried are the ones in Guantanamo. Now running those prisoners overseas that's a whole different story there, trying to get information out of them and what they did to them. \r\nSHIPP: The other big major recent controversy you were involved in was a committee that studied what happened in the Robert Hanssen case. Robert Hanssen being the chief FBI counterintelligence man who turned out to be a Russian spy. \r\nBELL: Not only was he a spy, he caused several Russian people that were helping us in Russia to be put to death. He should have got the death penalty himself. \r\nSHIPP: What did you determine in investigating--the method of handling that case? \r\nBELL: Well, there's a written report so I'm not telling anything I shouldn't tell, a public report that we made, the seven of us under Director Webster who was the Chairman. All of us had experience in this sort of thing. This man was paid to be a Russian spy. His wife found out about it and objected and made him go to a priest. And this was over a ten year period. He went to the priest and confessed and the priest told him just don't spy anymore but give the money they paid you, you've got to give that to charity. That's all that happened. Wife went and told a brother who was an agent about it. And the brother reported it to the special agent in charge in this particular office which I think was in Chicago as I remember it. And they did nothing about it. This man, he was in the intelligence end of the FBI and he was seeing all the secrets and knew who all our people were who had given us information. He had access too all that kind of information and he's feeding it back to them, so he quit spying for about three years. But of course they knew him and knew how to get in touch with him. They got in touch with him again and he decided he'd start again and he by that time he had a wife and seven or eight children but he had a girlfriend and he was getting money for her. And they finally caught him, but it was a lack of controls. \r\nSHIPP: Judge, a few years ago and I believe it was in the Reagan Administration or the first Bush Administration the CIA operative named Eugene Hasenfus fell into the hands of the communist regime in Nicaragua and they were about to shoot him and you wound up representing him in his trial. Tell us about those harrowing days. \r\nBELL: Well the, one of assistant Secretaries of State, well--earlier than Hasenfus was from Wisconsin, I've forgotten the name of the smaller town but not Milwaukee but he had a lawyer up there. His family got a lawyer after he was captured and the state department, assistant secretary for Inter-American Affairs, Latin American Affairs was in the matter and there's two of them. One or the other called me at my house at Sea Island to see if I would take the case and go down there and get him out. I recommended they get former Vice President Mondale of Cyrus Vance. Mondale told them that it wasn't his type case. And Vance told them he had to go to Europe. So he called me back and they said they're getting ready to try him for Kangaroo court, probably going to execute him. So I said, \"Okay, I'll go. I'll do it.\" My wife heard all this. She thought I'd gone crazy. And so I did and you know [unintelligible] went with us. And I got one lawyer from the law firm and then a young lawyer in Atlanta named Taylor Boone was in church at Sunday and the preacher was preaching a sermon on something to help other people so he was sitting there and he thought, \"Well, you know I ought to go help on the Hasenfus case because I speak fluent Spanish. Probably Judge Bell can't speak Spanish and I might be of some help.\" And he had some experience in foreign law practice. So he volunteered to go so that was a team, plus a lawyer from Milwaukee. And we all went down there and we did pretty well the first week as you recall. They--we stayed in the hotel. Didn't get shot although there was young people with AK-47's all over the place. We were trying the case to some extent in the media, particularly television. And Ortega, the dictator, while we were there went out to the Coca-Cola plant which they'd taken over but this was symbolic. Made a speech about Senor Bell being there to represent Hasenfus. Said, \"Senor Bell is a rich lawyer. Hasenfus is a poor man. Who's paying Senor Bell?\" And the crowd would shout, \"Reagan, Reagan [with Spanish accent pronounced Ree-gen]\" meaning President Reagan. Course I wasn't being paid at all. Never was paid. But it was a volunteer thing. But Ramsey Clark had gone down there and gotten there ahead of me and they put him up in the finest suite in the hotel and he told them that I was working for the CIA. And of course that poisoned the water before I could even get started down there. And then they set the trial for maybe two weeks later, something like that. When I got back down there the second time they took my luggage and I didn't have any clothes for three days. They wouldn't let me use the hotel. I had to go stay with the Ambassador to Ambassadors residence and we went to the trial, I can't remember, we went to trial the first trip or the second trip but it was bad. Anyway, they never did execute him. They had him--convicted him, had him in jail. Wouldn't let us talk to him and I came back home thinking this was just a failure. Senator Dodd from Connecticut called me up and said he was going down there that as a young man he was in the Peace Corps in Nicaragua and he wanted to know if I would object to him interviewing Hasenfus. He was going to ask Ortega to go to prisoner and interview Hasenfus. And I said, \"No, that'll be fine. I hope you can interview him.\" But I said, \"While you're down there if you'll tell them you need him as a witness against, in the Iran Contra investigation they might let him go.\" So he said he'd try that. And that's how he got out. And then never used him as a witness. It turned out in the hearing they didn't need him. But he did--they did release him and we had--I sent a lawyer to Miami to meet him when they brought him into Miami. \r\nSHIPP: And he later returned home and had more children, one of whom he named for you. \r\nBELL: Name, well, for the three of us: Warner Hayes, Taylor Boone, and me. He was--he's got three names, three given names. It's an exciting thing and one of the interesting side stories is Dr. Lowery who is head of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference was invited to come down to witness the trial. Ortega called him and said they needed somebody to come who would testify that the trial was fair, that sort of thing. So Dr. Lowery, unbeknownst to Ortega Dr. Lowery called me to see if he ought to go. So I suggested he go. And then they put him in the hotel but they wouldn't let me meet with him. That was the second week. But he had Reverend Oswell with him who was Mrs. King's first cousin. He worked for SCLC as well. And he would meet with me and tell me what was going on. And that was quite helpful. Dr. Lowery was helpful and when he was released I gave Senator Dodd and Reverend Lowery all the credit for getting him released. And Dr. Lowery called me and asked me if I wanted to run for office. I told him I did not and he said, \"Well, if you do I can get you lots of votes.\" Said, \"You're the first person that's ever given me credit for anything.\" (laughter) \r\nSHIPP: You mentioned Dr. King and before we started the tape here you mentioned two of the great national mysteries, one being the assassination of President Kennedy that Senator Russell certainly had some doubts about the conclusion and I believe you said that--when you were I the Justice Department as Attorney General you reopened or had reinvestigated the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. \r\nBELL: I did, yeah. It had been, I think it had been investigated twice before but I ordered them to reinvestigate because I could not believe that a person who had been at school through third grade, been in prison most of his life could escape from prison, end up with an automobile and a rifle and have a passport. He could go to Canada and ended up in London. How all that could be done by one man who just escaped prison. So I thought there was somebody else in it. Well we never found out who it was. And that, to this day, nobody knows who it was. \r\nSHIPP: Same conclusion. \r\nBELL: Yeah. \r\nSHIPP: Is there anything-- \r\nBELL: One more great mystery to me is Deep Throat. I always had an idea that somehow or another Russians were mixed up with the Deep Throat. \r\nSHIPP: Deep Throat was the confidential source of the Washington Post who broke Water Gate. Who do you think Deep Throat was? \r\nBELL: Well, I suggested to the CIA that the Russians may have been tapping the phone lines and picking up the recording since Nixon was recording everything. And they said, \"Oh, that's impossible. That didn't happen.\" But I believe it could have happened and I thought maybe they were feeding the information back out. \r\nSHIPP: To the Washington Post. \r\nBELL: Yeah. \r\nSHIPP: And those two reporters are still famous and became millionaires or multi-millionaires on the basis of that. \r\nBELL: Yeah. And nobody knows yet who Deep Throat was. Never have told, but if it was the Russians it was the greatest foreign intelligence cue in the history of the world. They broke down the government of this country. \r\nSHIPP: Couldn't you also argue that terrorist were largely responsible for ending Carter's political career also? \r\nBELL: Oh yeah. The Iranians. \r\nSHIPP: You're an old Mercer man but in 1998 you were the 73rd recipient of an honorary Doctor of Laws degree at the University of Georgia. I'd like to mention that since we're doing this under the auspices of the University of Georgia and then earlier this year you received the Atlanta Bar Associations highest honor. In looking back over your very distinguished career and having seen so much history. What do you think was the high point and the low point of some of--where did things really change and where did we start into the modern era we are now? \r\nBELL: I think in my generation I feel like I was born with one foot in the old South and one foot in the new South and I think that was the dividing line. And it probably came from people who served in World War II. We frequently we're called the Greatest Generation but we were the first generation of Americans that got college degrees. And I think that had something to do with it. And the generation before me just couldn't handle the changes that we had to go through. It was too much for them. And I think it was my own generation that had brought about the changes. I think of all the people who were in the Vandiver Administration, all the young people, we were young then, and how we saw things differently. I know the first time I ever reflected on the fact that--of the kind of school we gave the blacks it struck me that this kind of thing can't last. They're really getting a second-rate education while the whites are getting much better education. And once you start seeing things like that, you know, you know what's going to change. And the question is how do you change? How can you bring about change? How can you adjust to change? And I think amongst the greatest things my own generation has done is adjusted to the change and lead into change. That would be the way I'd come out. \r\nSHIPP: Well, we've moved now into a generation very few of whom have had any military experience or traveled as widely as your generation. We seem to be--some people say we're sliding back into a very conservative, maybe even towards an isolationist era in public opinion, what do you think of that? \r\nBELL: I think, well, I think the way we're reacting to Iraq we got two things going on at the same time. We got terrorism in the background but we're trying to spread democracy, spread human rights and there's a price you have to pay to do that. And we're paying the price in Iraq. But Iraq is, on a grand scale, maybe one of the most important things ever done because if we could settle out the problems of the Middle East the terrorism problem would go away. The Palestinian-Israeli problem would be solved and all that part of the world, given the fact that modern communication, is like being next door. We have to deal with those sorts of things. I think Iraq is a key and but it has to be done successfully. We have to have the staying power. We just can't cut and run every time we have a problem. And we got in there now we need to stay in there until we get it straightened out. I went back and was reading a biography of General McArthur and they brought up in the beginning the fact that his father failed in the Philippines after--the Spanish gave us the Philippines in the Spanish-American war. Course they had so much problem with the natives, former terrorism and sent General McArthur's father there to command it, straighten it out. He failed. In two years he hadn't straightened it out. They then sent William Howard Taft who later became President but at that time was a U.S. Circuit judge over there as a Civilian Administrator. Took three more years, took five years to ever get the Philippines straightened out. It may take that long in Iraq and we have to have the patience to do that and I'm not certain the younger generation is for that. I don't know if they have that much staying power. Course, they haven't had that much experience. They don't think in long term ways and I think even the television has something to do with that. We have instant news. We don't have any reflection. We don't think deeply. We don't read deeply. And I think that is all bad. \r\nSHIPP: Are you optimistic about the future? \r\nBELL: I am. \r\nSHIPP: Are you optimistic about the South? \r\nBELL: I'm optimistic about the South particularly and I see part of the country almost socialist way taking care of people. But I think the South and the West are the great hopes. And I think we'll find some leaders. I think we don't have as many leaders as we should. For some reason, I don't understand why we don't have more leaders. I think polling has something to do with it. Polling keeps you from leading. It gets you where you won't take a risk. And big business people that start new business, that sort of thing. They take risk. You take--we're taking a risk in Iraq. And it's costing a lot. But I think you have to have somebody that has a vision to see those sorts of things. And we have certain institutions that are ineffective. United Nations is ineffective. It's good for some thing but it's certainly not good as a peacekeeper. It's not good as somebody to keep order. And NATO should be expanded I think. I think the President may be working in that direction. But you don't just have to have European countries. There's other countries that we ought to get into something like NATO and they ought to be people who will help with the hard things and then we ought to have somebody that maintains the peace. We ought not to have to do both. And we need to work toward that way. Another thing I don't think we're doing is I had high hopes that President Bush and Putin would get together and deal with the Israeli-Palestinian problem. The Russians have great influence in the Middle East. They're not doing anything. They need to be brought into the equation. If you had Bush and Putin cooperating on the same problem we'd get it solved. \r\nSHIPP: Going back to your days as a young man in the Vandiver Administration with a solid south, solid democrats. Did you ever think you'd see the day we were the solid again and a solid republican? \r\nBELL: No I never did. You know, Reggie Murphy's got in his biography of me the story of my mother when I went to see her about--to tell her I was going to be the Kennedy Campaign manager and that he was a Roman Catholic. She's granddaughter of a Baptist preacher and I was worried about what she says and what she thought about it. And she said, \"I already knew about it. I read it in the newspaper.\" And said, \"I thought about it a lot and I'd rather you support a Roman Catholic than a Republican.\" (Shipp laughs) \r\nSHIPP: Our very patient and gracious guests today has been Judge Griffin B. Bell who is one of the more remarkable citizens to be produced in the Georgia political arena and in his 50 years of practicing law in public and private life who has probably seen more and participated in more history than any other Georgian that I know. Thank you very much Judge Bell. \r\nBELL: Good. 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