{"response":{"docs":[{"id":"kai_chm-oh_348","title":"CHICAGO MUSLIM ORAL HISTORY PROJECT : Alwawi, Nedaa Transcription","collection_id":"kai_chm-oh","collection_title":"Oral History Collection (Chicago History Museum)","dcterms_contributor":null,"dcterms_spatial":["Palestine, 31.952162, 35.233154","Palestine, Beitunia, 31.8966, 35.17048","United States, Illinois, Cook County, Bellwood, 41.88142, -87.88312","United States, Illinois, Cook County, Bridgeview, 41.75003, -87.80422","United States, Illinois, Cook County, Chicago, 41.85003, -87.65005"],"dcterms_creator":["Alwawi, Nedaa Transcription","Askar, Mona"],"dc_date":["2018-08-10"],"dcterms_description":["The daughter of Palestinian immigrants, Nedaa Alwawi was born in 1982 in Bellwood, Illinois. When she was seven years old, her family moved to the “Little Palestine” area of Bridgeview, Illinois. Alwawi credits her experiences living and going to school in ethnically diverse areas for her career in education."],"dc_format":["application/pdf"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":["Chicago, Ill. : Studs Terkel Center for Oral History, Chicago History Museum","Chicago, Ill. : Chicago History Museum"],"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["Oral History Collection (Chicago History Museum)","AMERICAN MEDINA:STORIES OF MUSLIM CHICAGO ORAL HISTORY PROJECT"],"dcterms_subject":["Emigration and immigration","Arranged marriage","Citizenship","Dance","Discrimination","High schools","Teaching"],"dcterms_title":["CHICAGO MUSLIM ORAL HISTORY PROJECT : Alwawi, Nedaa Transcription"],"dcterms_type":["Text"],"dcterms_provenance":["Chicago History Museum"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://collections.carli.illinois.edu/cdm/ref/collection/chm_oh/id/348"],"dcterms_temporal":["1982/2018"],"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":null,"dlg_local_right":["© 2019 Chicago Historical Society, all rights reserved","For permission to reproduce, distribute, or otherwise use this image, please visit https://images.chicagohistory.org or contact rightsrepro@chicagohistory.org."],"dcterms_medium":["oral histories (literary works)"],"dcterms_extent":null,"dlg_subject_personal":null,"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"kai_chm-oh_350","title":"CHICAGO MUSLIM ORAL HISTORY PROJECT : Al-Anaswah, Mohammed","collection_id":"kai_chm-oh","collection_title":"Oral History Collection (Chicago History Museum)","dcterms_contributor":null,"dcterms_spatial":["Jordan, 31.0, 36.0","Palestine, 31.952162, 35.233154","United States, Illinois, Cook County, Chicago, 41.85003, -87.65005","United States, Illinois, Cook County, Northbrook, 42.12753, -87.82895","United States, Illinois, Winnebago County, Rockford, 42.27113, -89.094"],"dcterms_creator":["Al-Anaswah, Mohammed","Alter, Peter"],"dc_date":["2017-11-19"],"dcterms_description":["Mohammed Al-Anaswah was born in 1965 in Amman, Jordan, where he grew up in a military family. Al-Anaswah originally pursued a military career like his father and siblings. With some assistance from his father, Al-Anaswah received a student visa and enrolled in Rockford College in Illinois. After leaving school, Al-Anaswah eventually began his career as a realtor."],"dc_format":["application/pdf"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":["Chicago, Ill. : Studs Terkel Center for Oral History, Chicago History Museum","Chicago, Ill. : Chicago History Museum"],"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["Oral History Collection (Chicago History Museum)","AMERICAN MEDINA:STORIES OF MUSLIM CHICAGO ORAL HISTORY PROJECT"],"dcterms_subject":["September 11 Terrorist Attacks, 2001","Military","Education","Discrimination"],"dcterms_title":["CHICAGO MUSLIM ORAL HISTORY PROJECT : Al-Anaswah, Mohammed"],"dcterms_type":["Text"],"dcterms_provenance":["Chicago History Museum"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://collections.carli.illinois.edu/cdm/ref/collection/chm_oh/id/350"],"dcterms_temporal":["1965/2018"],"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":null,"dlg_local_right":["© 2019 Chicago Historical Society, all rights reserved","For permission to reproduce, distribute, or otherwise use this image, please visit https://images.chicagohistory.org or contact rightsrepro@chicagohistory.org."],"dcterms_medium":["oral histories (literary works)"],"dcterms_extent":null,"dlg_subject_personal":null,"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"kai_chm-oh_354","title":"CHICAGO MUSLIM ORAL HISTORY PROJECT : Gillani, Malik","collection_id":"kai_chm-oh","collection_title":"Oral History Collection (Chicago History Museum)","dcterms_contributor":null,"dcterms_spatial":["United States, Illinois, Cook County, Chicago, 41.85003, -87.65005","United States, Illinois, Cook County, Chicago, Albany Park, 41.96836, -87.72339","United States, Illinois, Cook County, Chicago, North Side, 41.90003, -87.6345","United States, Illinois, Cook County, Chicago, Rogers Park, 42.00864, -87.66672","United States, Illinois, Cook County, Chicago, Western Suburbs, 41.78753, -87.89839","United States, Maryland, 39.00039, -76.74997"],"dcterms_creator":["Gillani, Malik","Doolan, Yuri"],"dc_date":["2017-07-17"],"dcterms_description":["Malik Gillani was born in Pakistan in 1970. The youngest of six children, his family moved to the Chicago area early in his youth. With his husband, Gillani co-founded the theater company Silk Road Rising, “an art-making and art service organization that shapes conversations about Asian and Middle Eastern Americans.” Silk Road has been a way to explore what it means to be American post-9/11."],"dc_format":["application/pdf"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":["Chicago, Ill. : Studs Terkel Center for Oral History, Chicago History Museum","Chicago, Ill. : Chicago History Museum"],"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["Oral History Collection (Chicago History Museum)","AMERICAN MEDINA:STORIES OF MUSLIM CHICAGO ORAL HISTORY PROJECT"],"dcterms_subject":["Emigration and immigration","Houses of prayer","Ismailites","Interfaith worship","Silk roads (Chicago, Ill.)","September 11 Terrorist Attacks, 2001","Islamophobia","Discrimination","Gender identity","Community centers"],"dcterms_title":["CHICAGO MUSLIM ORAL HISTORY PROJECT : Gillani, Malik"],"dcterms_type":["Text"],"dcterms_provenance":["Chicago History Museum"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://collections.carli.illinois.edu/cdm/ref/collection/chm_oh/id/354"],"dcterms_temporal":["1970/2017"],"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":null,"dlg_local_right":["© 2019 Chicago Historical Society, all rights reserved","For permission to reproduce, distribute, or otherwise use this image, please visit https://images.chicagohistory.org or contact rightsrepro@chicagohistory.org."],"dcterms_medium":["oral histories (literary works)"],"dcterms_extent":null,"dlg_subject_personal":null,"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"kai_chm-oh_356","title":"CHICAGO MUSLIM ORAL HISTORY PROJECT : Ghazi, Abidullah","collection_id":"kai_chm-oh","collection_title":"Oral History Collection (Chicago History Museum)","dcterms_contributor":null,"dcterms_spatial":["India, 22.0, 79.0","Pakistan, 30.0, 70.0","United Kingdom, England, London, 51.50853, -0.12574","United States, Illinois, Cook County, Chicago, 41.85003, -87.65005"],"dcterms_creator":["Ghazi, Abidullah","Domienik, Lynnea"],"dc_date":["2017-03-01"],"dcterms_description":["Abidullah Ghazi (c. 1934) grew up during the Partition of British India. His father worked as a journalist and encouraged his education. Ghazi attended Aligarh Muslim University and excelled in debate and speech. Ghazi has worked in government and as an educator, authoring over 140 books on Islam. With his wife, Tasmeena, Ghazi co-founded IQRA' International Educational Foundation based in suburban Skokie, Illinois."],"dc_format":["application/pdf"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":["Chicago, Ill. : Studs Terkel Center for Oral History, Chicago History Museum","Chicago, Ill. : Chicago History Museum"],"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["Oral History Collection (Chicago History Museum)","AMERICAN MEDINA:STORIES OF MUSLIM CHICAGO ORAL HISTORY PROJECT"],"dcterms_subject":["Partition","Aligarh Muslim University","Education","India--History--Autonomy and independence movements","Islamophobia","Discrimination","Jamʻīyah al-Jazāʼirīyah li-Maḥw al-Ummīyah"],"dcterms_title":["CHICAGO MUSLIM ORAL HISTORY PROJECT : Ghazi, Abidullah"],"dcterms_type":["Text"],"dcterms_provenance":["Chicago History Museum"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://collections.carli.illinois.edu/cdm/ref/collection/chm_oh/id/356"],"dcterms_temporal":["1934/2017"],"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":null,"dlg_local_right":["© 2019 Chicago Historical Society, all rights reserved","For permission to reproduce, distribute, or otherwise use this image, please visit https://images.chicagohistory.org or contact rightsrepro@chicagohistory.org."],"dcterms_medium":["oral histories (literary works)"],"dcterms_extent":null,"dlg_subject_personal":null,"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"kai_chm-oh","title":"Oral history collection (Chicago History Museum)","collection_id":null,"collection_title":null,"dcterms_contributor":["Breakthrough Urban Ministries (Chicago, Ill.)"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, Illinois, Cook County, Chicago, 41.85003, -87.65005","United States, Illinois, Cook County, Chicago, East Garfield Park, 41.88087, -87.70283","United States, Illinois, Cook County, Chicago, Grant Park, 41.87948, -87.61894","United States, Illinois, Cook County, Chicago, Lincoln Park, 41.9217, -87.64783","United States, Illinois, Cook County, Chicago, West Side, 41.8542, -87.66561"],"dcterms_creator":["Breakthrough Film Crew","Alter, Peter","Bivins, Joy","Grannan, Jill","Russick, John","Egbert, Catrien","Long, Tim","Mitchel, Yasmin","Yaros, Craig","Domienik, Lynnea","Askar, Mona","Hudzik, Maribeth","Moomey, Kristin","Naylor, Megan","Ohlson, Walter H.","Wright, Brandon","Caldwell, William","Johnson, Gary T.","Licata, Haley"],"dc_date":["2008/2019"],"dcterms_description":["Read transcripts of and listen to oral history interviews conducted by the Studs Terkel Center for Oral History of the Chicago History Museum. Founded in 2005, the center carries forward the legacy of well-known actor, DJ, oral historian, journalist, and writer Studs Terkel. Through its work with community partners, the center uses history in general and oral history in particular as an empowering tool of social justice and civil rights to understand ourselves and our communities."],"dc_format":["audio/mpeg","image/jpeg","application/pdf"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":null,"dcterms_subject":["Interviews","Oral history","Political science","Elections","Riots","Democratic National Convention (1968 : Chicago, Ill.)","Cold War","Neighborhoods","Community development","Social services","September 11 Terrorist Attacks, 2001","Gentrification","Communism","Conrad Hilton Hotel (Chicago, Ill.)","Education","Islamophobia","Vietnam War, 1961-1975","World War, 1939-1945","Civil rights","Emigration and immigration","Refugees","Community centers","Discrimination","Parks","Revolutions","Urban renewal"],"dcterms_title":["Oral history collection (Chicago History Museum)"],"dcterms_type":["StillImage","Sound","Text"],"dcterms_provenance":["Chicago History Museum"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["https://collections.carli.illinois.edu/digital/collection/chm_oh"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":null,"dlg_local_right":null,"dcterms_medium":["oral histories (literary works)"],"dcterms_extent":null,"dlg_subject_personal":["Elijah Muhammad, 1897-1975","Muhammad, Clara, 1898-1972","Obama, Barack","X, Malcolm, 1925-1965"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"usm_oh_mus-coh-clarkf-transcript","title":"Oral history with Mr. Fred Clark, Sr.","collection_id":"usm_oh","collection_title":"Oral History","dcterms_contributor":null,"dcterms_spatial":["United States, Mississippi, 32.75041, -89.75036"],"dcterms_creator":["Clark, Fred, 1943-","Faulkner, Leesha"],"dc_date":["1994"],"dcterms_description":["Oral history.; Interview conducted on June 10, 1994 with Fred Clark Sr. (born 1943). Mr. Clark grew up in the segregated society of Jackson, Mississippi. He was educated in Jackson, attending Smith Robertson Elementary School, Rowan Junior High, Holy Ghost Catholic School, Lanier High, and Jackson State University. His employment has included professional golf caddy, construction worker, teacher, security guard, park ranger, deputized U.S. Marshal, and assistant prison policeman. His interests include: church, community leadership, baseball in Mississippi, family life, education, and politics.","This item is part of the Civil Rights in Mississippi Digital Archive."],"dc_format":["application/pdf"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":["University of Southern Mississippi. Center for Oral History and Cultural Heritage."],"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["F341.5 .M57 vol. 494"],"dcterms_subject":["Mississippi","Racism","Race relations","Discrimination","Segregation","Police brutality","Education","Civil rights","National Association for the Advancement of Colored People","Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (U.S.)","Church","Ku Klux Klan (1915- )","Jackson State University","Voter Registration","Teaching","Birmingham (Ala.)","Jackson (Miss.)","Family Life","Piney Woods School","Pittsburgh courier","Religion","Leadership","Mississippi State Penitentiary","Corruption","Alabama","Millsaps College"],"dcterms_title":["Oral history with Mr. Fred Clark, Sr."],"dcterms_type":["Text"],"dcterms_provenance":["University of Southern Mississippi. Center for Oral History and Cultural Heritage"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["https://usm.access.preservica.com/uncategorized/IO_e33c6994-7e50-4623-ba82-fe73be693ee2"],"dcterms_temporal":["1950/1969"],"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":null,"dlg_local_right":["University Libraries provides access to these materials for educational and research purposes. Use of materials from this collection beyond the exceptions provided for in the Fair Use and Educational Use clauses of the U.S. Copyright Law may violate federal law. When possible, we have provided information regarding the copyright right status of an item; however, the information we have may not be accurate or complete. Obtaining permissions to publish or otherwise use is the sole responsibility of the user."],"dcterms_medium":["oral histories (literary works)"],"dcterms_extent":null,"dlg_subject_personal":["Evers, Medgar Wiley, 1925-1963","Meredith, James, 1933-","Clark, Fred, 1943- --Interviews"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"gych_rbrl214droh_rusk-gg","title":"Dean Rusk interviewed by Richard Rusk, Thomas Schoenbaum, and Ralph Beaird. ca. 1985","collection_id":"gych_rbrl214droh","collection_title":"Dean Rusk oral history collection, 1984-1989","dcterms_contributor":null,"dcterms_spatial":["United States, 39.76, -98.5"],"dcterms_creator":["Schoenbaum, Thomas","Rusk, Dean, 1909-1994","Beaird, Ralph","Rusk, Richard"],"dc_date":["1985"],"dcterms_description":["Dean Rusk (1909-1994), attorney and U.S. Secretary of State, was born in Cherokee County, Georgia. Rusk joined the Department of State from 1947-1952 and Assistant Secretary of State for United Nations Affairs and for Far Eastern Affairs. From 1952-1960, he was president of the Rockefeller Foundation. In 1961, President Kennedy appointed Rusk to the office of Secretary of State. He remained in this position until 1969. In 1970, he became the Samuel H. Sibley Professor of International Law at the University of Georgia, a position he held until his death in 1994.","Related collections in this repository: Dean Rusk Personal Papers, D.W. Brooks Oral History Collection, Martin Hillenbrand Papers. This interview is a continuation of Rusk P.","Interviewed by Richard Rusk, Thomas Schoenbaum, and Ralph Beaird.","Dean Rusk discusses his experiences with racism, integration and discrimination issues, including housing discrimination in Washington and his daughter’s marriage. This interview is a continuation of Rusk FF."],"dc_format":["audio/mpeg"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["Dean Rusk Oral History Collection","http://russelldoc.galib.uga.edu/russell/view?docId=ead/RBRL214DROH-ead.xml"],"dcterms_subject":["Racism","Discrimination"],"dcterms_title":["Dean Rusk interviewed by Richard Rusk, Thomas Schoenbaum, and Ralph Beaird. ca. 1985"],"dcterms_type":["Sound"],"dcterms_provenance":["Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL214DROH-RuskGG/ohms"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":["Dean Rusk Oral History Collection, OH Rusk GG, Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Libraries, Athens, Georgia, 30602-1641."],"dlg_local_right":["Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule."],"dcterms_medium":["interviews","oral histories (literary works)"],"dcterms_extent":["1 interview (28.0 min.) : digital, stereo"],"dlg_subject_personal":["Rusk, Dean, 1909-1994"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":"DEAN RUSK:  The international echoes from Peggy's [Margaret Elizabeth Rusk [Mrs. Guy Smith]] marriage were quite extensive. We had reactions from many parts of the world that we learned about. I think our own embassies abroad were somehow a little reluctant to report much on these things, but these reactions trickled in. They were all positive. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  They were? \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  There was quite an international reaction. Do you recall specifically what happened? \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  No I don't. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  Would the Department have compiled that stuff? \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  I doubt they would have set up a special classification for pulling all that together. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  What ever happened to all that hate mail we got? I understand you got some in the Department and I remember some at the house. \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  Oh, I would think the so-called hate mail was limited to not more than a dozen letters. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  To the home? \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  Or to the Department. Oh, two or three of them might have come to the Department but there was very, very little of that. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  It was certainly regarded as a significant step for its time. \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  Well this was big news. Time magazine ran a cover story on Peggy and Guy--on the whole, a pretty good well-balanced story. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  Do you recall what the advice was that you gave Peg and Guy on that?  \r\n \r\n[break in recording] \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  Peggy and Guy [Smith] were married in the chapel of Stanford University. We all agreed that this marriage would not be announced in advance, and in effect made public, because I did not want the Vietnam protesters to come in there and interfere with or break up Peggy's marriage. That was the sole reason why we kept it quiet ahead of time. Then the moment the marriage was over reporters, cameramen, and everybody else were all there and got their pictures and got their stories. I just didn't want to have these protesters take it out on Peggy when their real object was me. So that was the sole reason for handling it that way. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  James [Howard] Meredith called that the \"perhaps the most significant thing to date in government to affect in a favorable way the racial situation in the United States.\" That's out of the Time magazine article of September 29, 1967. That was the cover story of Peggy's marriage. Did you feel, in your own mind, that it was really that significant a thing in 1967? \r\n \r\n[break in recording] \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  Since Peggy and Guy, themselves, did not look upon this marriage as in any way symbolic of anything--they weren't doing this to promote some cause or something, they were simply two young people who wanted to get married--I, myself, approached it in this same way. I did not attach or attempt to attach a lot of outside significance to it. So I never tried to interpret it in those terms because I am sure that that was not in the minds of Peggy and Guy. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  Do you recall what the reaction was among your colleagues in government, or perhaps President Johnson? \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  Very few of them spoke to me about it. Peggy and Guy got wedding presents from a good many of my colleagues and former colleagues. At one point I did tell Lyndon Johnson that if he thought that this wedding would make it more difficult for me to maintain my relations with the Senator the Congress, if that was his judgment, I would take that into account. He just dropped the remark one day that he had spoken to Senator [Richard Brevard] Russell [Jr.] of Georgia about it and Senator Russell had said, \"Forget it. It won't make any difference at all.\" So that was the end of that. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  Did you offer to resign? Was that part of it? \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  Not in so many specific words. If, indeed, some of these southern senators had taken out after me like baying hounds and made it more difficult for me to carry on my responsibilities, I would have had to think about that-- \r\n \r\n[break in recording] \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  [Warren I.] Cohen described you as the principal influence in the Graham mission that led to Indonesian independence, the \"only anti-colonialist venture of the early post-war years.\" Was race a factor in this effort with Indonesia and with respect to our foreign policy in general as a \"unilateralist\"? Did your battles with the Europeanists within the Department have racial overtones? \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  It's a little hard to measure, to extract out the racial issues from overriding political issues. You see, the United States looked with favor on the granting of independence to those large colonial areas at the end of World War II: India, Burma, Malaya, and so forth. But at the heart of the Indonesian independence issue was a very simple overriding fact. That is that the Dutch simply did not have the capability of maintaining their control over the Indonesians if the Indonesians were ready to resist, which they were. There was a very critical interview/discussion between Secretary of State George [Catlett] Marshall and the Dutch Prime Minister at the time in which Marshall simply pointed out as a military man that the Netherlands would bleed itself dry trying to assert its control over Indonesia and would fail, and that no one would come to help them, and that therefore they had no choice but to get out. I think that was the critical point, quite apart from the broad, sympathetic policy we had toward the independence of colonial areas. That was the clincher: that they simply couldn't do it and we wouldn't help them. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  This clash between the Europeanists and unilateralists: you know, between such people as George [Frost] Kennan and perhaps Dean [Gooderham] Acheson and others--Looking at them and from what you knew about those people personally, individually, did you think racial attitude was part of the makeup of the Europeanists? Did you ever suspect that? \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  It's hard to sort that one out. The problems we had with these independence movements, with the Bureau of European Affairs in the State Department, derived I think fundamentally from the fact that the Bureau of European Affairs was responsible for trying to build good relations between ourselves and Europe and this was a potential major point of friction. This was at the time when we were trying to work with our friends in Europe to rebuild Europe and making the first steps toward the Marshall Plan and NATO [North Atlantic Treaty Organization] and things of that sort. So it's inevitable that my office, the United Nations Office or later the Far Eastern Office, would have some differences with the Bureau of European Affairs because our responsibilities were different. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  You don't remember race being discussed, per se? \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  No. I don't think that this was on a racial basis. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  Moving ahead twenty years: Some of the critics of Vietnam have cast their objections to that war in racial terms, stating that the massive use of American fire power against Asians never would have occurred against Caucasian peoples had we been fighting Caucasians instead. How do you respond to a charge like that? \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  I would simply begin by saying it simply was not true. We helped South Korea defend itself against the North Koreans where Asians had elected to put themselves in the position of the aggressor. We helped South Vietnam defend itself against North Vietnam. After all, it was Asians who were moving in on South Vietnam and Laos and Cambodia. And we made a major effort during the Vietnam War to keep the impact upon civilians limited. There's one story about Vietnam that has never been told and I have suggested it to a number of reporters who simply were not interested. That is the additional casualties we took because of the rules of engagement which were designed to protect civilians. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  If someone was interested in developing a story along those lines--I'm not saying that I'm the one to do it--where would they look for that material? \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  They would have to comb over a good deal of material. They would have to start with the Rules of Engagement, which are publicly available. Then they would have to comb over a good many materials in the Pentagon: the operational reports and things of that sort. I remember one full year after the bombing started in 1965: After one full year of that, the North Vietnamese put out a story reporting that there had been five hundred civilian casualties as a result of the bombing. Well now, in terms of bombing, five hundred for a full year is just nothing. I still have on my conscience the fact that we asked our own men sometimes to do things the hard way rather than the easy way in order to save civilian casualties. At those Tuesday luncheon sessions with President Johnson, when we were looking at a particular bombing target, if you approached the bombing target from one direction there would be less defensive resistance in terms of anti-aircraft and things of that sort, but there would be a greater risk of civilian casualties through overages or shorts. Whereas, if you went in in another way, there would be far less risk of civilian casualties but more defense. And there were times when we would send our flyers through the more difficult way in order to protect civilians. That's a very tough decision to make. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  Pop, either as a private citizen or a public official, have you ever been called a racist or accused of discriminatory attitudes or practices? \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  I think only on one occasion. Somewhere in a press conference or something, somebody asked me about the People's Republic of China and I made three very factual statements about China: One, there would be a billion of them. Second, that they would be armed with nuclear weapons. And third, that we didn't know what their policies and attitudes would be twenty years down the road. Well, [James Barrett] Scotty Reston and, I think, [Eugene J.] Gene McCarthy picked that up and charged me with raising the \"yellow peril\" notion in racial terms. I don't know anybody who didn't know that there were going to be a billion Chinese and they'd be armed with nuclear weapons. And I didn't know anybody who knew what their policies would be twenty years later. These were just very simple, factual points. Well, about two or three weeks later, Scotty Reston halfway apologized for this in one of his later columns, but it was buried so deep in there it never caught up with his original column. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  Did you call that to his attention? \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  I sure did. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  What did you do? Phone him? \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  I don't know whether I saw him or phoned him. I don't know. But he knew perfectly well that I wasn't raising the yellow peril in racial terms. That wasn't in my mind at all. And I think he would be the first today to confirm that that is so. I think that's about the only time I was ever accused of personal racism. Let me think a little bit more about that. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:   Both in Scarsdale, New York, and Spring Valley, Washington, D.C., you refused to sign residential sale agreements that would prevent the future sale of those homes to blacks. Do you care to comment on this and, if you would, on any other ways in which you may have lived your personal life in a racially tolerant manner. \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  When we bought our little home in Washington, D.C. there on Quebec Street just below American University, we found that for many, many years, decades the deed had provided that the home could not be sold to Africans or Asians or \"denizens of the Ottoman empire\"--(laughter) \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  It was in the deed, huh? \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  Yeah, it was in the actual deed itself. So I asked my lawyers to figure out how we could knock that out. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:   Had you already signed the agreement? \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:   I had not closed it at that time. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  Did you see it yourself or did someone-- \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  Oh, I saw the deed. I have always remembered that phrase \"denizens of the Ottoman empire.\" This was a 19th century deed, probably. My lawyers, who were themselves very liberal, advised that the process of changing a deed is so complicated, time consuming, and difficult that the best way to handle it would be simply to file a statement with the deed that I considered those clauses unconstitutional and would not comply with them. And that's what I did. Of course, they maintain that kind of discrimination also by resale contracts, which I refused to sign. That is, the real estate agent from whom we bought that little house in Washington was pretty well-known around town as dealing only in properties for whites. They wanted me to sign a resale agreement that if I ever wanted to sell that house I would sell it through them. And that would help to preserve the discrimination pact. But I didn't sign their resale agreement. Although, in fact, I think we may have sold the house through that particular firm, as it happened. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  Did you have an unpleasant exchange with that fellow over that point? \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:   No. Not particularly. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:   Was the Scarsdale house purchase set up the same way? \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:   I don't think it was in the deed. I think this has disappeared now, but in Scarsdale the real estate people tried to guide Jewish families into a particular section of town. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  What section of Scarsdale was that? Fox Meadow? \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  Fox Meadow section. They discouraged even Jews from coming into Greenacres, although we did in fact have a number of Jews there. We didn't have problems with black discrimination in Scarsdale because we didn't have any blacks. I don't know that there were any blacks at all living in Scarsdale except as live-in maids and servants for people. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:   That's what I remember. \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:   The discrimination in Scarsdale while we were there was on religious grounds rather than racial grounds. Now that has largely disappeared, I am happy to say. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  You may need a little time to think, but do you recall any ways in which you may have ordered your personal life to try to live in a racially tolerant way? \r\n \r\n[break in recording] \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  When we lived in Scarsdale, you will remember that the Scarsdale Golf Club was just two or three blocks down the hill across a railroad track. I was invited more than once to join. Although it would have been wonderful for you kids to have been able to-- \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  It sure would. That was a great place. As a matter of fact we used to sneak on the course. \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  --to run down the hill for a swim or to play golf or tennis or whatever. I could not in conscience join a club to which, for example, I could not invite the trustees of the Rockefeller Foundation. And since this club would not admit Jews, much less blacks, I just refused membership. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  You had Jewish trustees at the Foundation? \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  Well, sure. And also, just as a general matter of principle I didn't feel it was up to me to join that particular kind of situation. Whether they have changed that now, I just don't know. It was typical around New York in those days to have Gentile country clubs and there were a few Jewish country clubs. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  Why was it you were rather insistent on Peg and Dave [David Patrick Rusk] and myself going to a public high school, public school system rather than a private? \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  Part of it was not principle at all, it was just money. (laughter) I don't think we could have afforded it. But also there was a pretty general sense that if people like we were didn't patronize the public schools, that we would turn the public schools more and more into a class element in our society. When I was in the cabinet in Washington you kids went to public schools. Some of the children of my good liberal friends were off in private schools. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  I would say, most of the children of your liberal friends were in private schools. \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  Yeah. No, we've always felt and strongly supported the public school system. Mom and I were active in PTAs [Parent-Teacher Associations] here and there, particularly active in Scarsdale. It has just been our general orientation and attitude. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  Did you ever get involved with Dave in his Urban League work in Washington while you were Secretary? Dave had entered the, joined the Urban League in the aftermath of Martin Luther King's march on Washington and his famous speech of \"I Have a Dream.\" I believe he worked there for four or five years as one of the leading officers in the Urban League. \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  Dave and I did not cross paths in connection with our respective jobs and responsibilities, but we saw each other frequently and talked about his work in the Urban League. I think he enjoyed it. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  Pop, do you recall meeting with any of the protest groups in the sixties while you were Secretary, related to perhaps any of the marches on Washington? \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  There was a poor march on Washington? \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  Poor People's March? \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  Yeah, mostly black. They came up and pitched their tents in the mud and all that sort of thing. One of the black leaders--was it Ralph [David] Abernathy? \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  I think it was Ralph Abernathy, yeah. \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  --insisted upon meeting with me as Secretary of State. So I received him and a group of twenty-five or thirty of his colleagues. At that meeting they handed me a list of questions and points on which they wanted replies. When I looked through there, none of these had to do with foreign policy. They all were about domestic matters. So I simply distributed those questions to other cabinet members and they put together some replies. Then we assembled that and sent it over to Ralph Abernathy. Then he wanted to have another meeting with me before the news reporters and TV cameras and things of that sort. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  Was this first meeting before the press at all? \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  No. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  Just privately? Was it up in your office? \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  It was up in the Department somewhere. I don't think it was in my office. There were too many of them. It was somewhere else. He wanted a press conference with me on these answers. Well, they weren't my answers and I wasn't prepared to get into them. It wasn't my business to get into them and I refused that press conference. I didn't feel that he should use me, as Secretary of State, just to create a demonstration against my cabinet colleagues by being very critical about the replies they had made to his questions. I simply refused to meet him the second time. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  I think [William] Ramsey Clark had been through that experience and I think he had advised you that it probably wasn't an experience worth repeating. \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  That's possible. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  You asked me for my opinion about it, I remember that. \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  Well I did meet with him the first time. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  I've got one final question and that is: The South has historically, and still even today, has come under criticism from other sections of the country, particularly up Worth, for being backward in their racial views and being an intolerant section of the country. Yet, you've grown up in the South. You've had the chance to see these issues on a national level. Care to comment upon these sectional differences? Is it in fact true, as the critics claim that it is, that the South is more intolerant toward black people? \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  I just don't think that is true, generally speaking. I think with a little luck the South will be able to show the way to the rest of the country in race relations. You see, back in the old days when the theory was wrong about the white-black relationship, nevertheless there was an infinity of personal relationships between whites and blacks in all sorts of ways. Now, when the theory came to be straightened out, those personal relationships continued. Whites and blacks would join with each other in all sorts of common enterprises. There has been something there to build on in a way that you don't have in a place like south Boston, or in Watts, or in the south side of Chicago, and things like that. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  Well there simply just hasn't been any contact between the people there. \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  Yeah. So, I think that the South is in a position to make a major contribution on these race relations. You see, in the North, you have these problems where you have blacks. In a good many places in the North there are not any blacks so there is no problem, and they can take a very lofty attitude about these matters. Where you do have blacks in large numbers, there are problems in the North as well as in the South. They are withering away, but they are still there. \r\n \r\nRICHARD RUSK:  There was a great deal of progress in race relations during the sixties, especially the earlier part of the sixties, then greater tension in the late sixties, a lot of ghettos burning, a lot of public protest; some discouragement in the seventies, more or less in economic terms where blacks had obtained their rightful status under law, but were still suffering the effects of economic poverty and discrimination. Are you optimistic that this country will continue to make success in civil rights? \r\n \r\nDEAN RUSK:  We'll make progress, but the progress will depend in part on the general tone of the leadership we have in Washington, particularly in the White House. I don't think that has been particularly hopeful in recent years. I think it's very bad indeed that black unemployment is double that of white unemployment typically. I think it's still true that the blacks do not come out of higher education as sharply trained as a good many whites. Therefore, I think it's still true that some of them find that they are not competitive where competitive jobs are involved. That will steadily improve, but I just don't buy this attitude that somehow the Worth is far ahead of the South in race relations these days. After all, you've got an elected black mayor of the city of Atlanta and a good many other southern cities. You've got lots of black elected officials around the South. The black business community is steadily developing and moving ahead. So I think these things are changing. \r\n \r\n \r\nEND OF SIDE 1 \r\n \r\n \r\n[SIDE 2 BLANK] "},{"id":"umc_awr_49789","title":"Teachers, Cheektowaga, NY, 83E-53","collection_id":"umc_awr","collection_title":"Advancing Workers’ Rights in the American South","dcterms_contributor":null,"dcterms_spatial":["United States, New York, Erie County, Cheektowaga, 42.90339, -78.75475"],"dcterms_creator":null,"dc_date":["1983-05/1983-06"],"dcterms_description":["Folder of materials from the \"Case Files, 1947-1984\" series from the AFL, CIO, and AFL-CIO Civil Rights Department, Discrimination Case Files."],"dc_format":["application/pdf"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":null,"dcterms_subject":["Labor laws and legislation","Labor union locals","Discrimination"],"dcterms_title":["Teachers, Cheektowaga, NY, 83E-53"],"dcterms_type":["Text"],"dcterms_provenance":["University of Maryland, College Park. 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