{"response":{"docs":[{"id":"kylouu_afamoh_oh683","title":"Oral history interview with Mae Street Kidd","collection_id":"kylouu_afamoh","collection_title":"African American Oral History Collection","dcterms_contributor":null,"dcterms_spatial":["France, 46.0, 2.0","United Kingdom, England, 52.355518, -1.17432","United States, Kentucky, Franklin County, 38.23915, -84.87707","United States, Kentucky, Franklin County, Frankfort, 38.20091, -84.87328","United States, Kentucky, Jefferson County, Louisville, 38.25424, -85.75941","United States, Kentucky, Shelby County, 38.21544, -85.19477","United States, Kentucky, Shelby County, Simpsonville, 38.22257, -85.35523","United States, Michigan, Wayne County, Detroit, 42.33143, -83.04575"],"dcterms_creator":["Kidd, Mae Street, 1904-","Chumbley, Kenneth Lawrence"],"dc_date":["1978"],"dcterms_description":["Oral history interview conducted with legislator Mae Street Kidd on October 10, November 11, and December 5, 1978 by Ken Chumbley. Ms. Kidd discusses her life, including her childhood growing up in Bourbon County. Kidd attended the Lincoln Institute in Simpsonville, Kentucky, and then began working for Mammoth Life Insurance Company, Louisville-based black-owned life insurance company. She discusses her career with Mammoth Life, which was interupted by service in the Red Cross during World War II. She discusses her experiences with the Red Cross, both during her training and during her service overseas. She discusses differences in white attitudes, in particular. She describes her work in public relations and sales after the war, as well as her political career. She was elected to the Kentucky Assembly in 1967 and began serving in 1968. She discusses her attempts to pass legislation to give tax breaks to companies that would provide training to Kentucky residents, and her successful efforts to pass a low-cost housing bill.","The Civil Rights Digital Library received support from a National Leadership Grant for Libraries awarded to the University of Georgia by the Institute of Museum and Library Services for the aggregation and enhancement of partner metadata."],"dc_format":null,"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":["Audiocassette tapes number 683-686, African American Oral History Collection, Oral History Center, University of Louisville Archives and Records Center."],"dc_relation":["Forms part of online collection: African American Community Interviews, Oral History Center, University of Louisville Archives and Records Center"],"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["African American Community Interviews Collection (William F. Ekstrom Library. University Archives and Records Center)"],"dcterms_subject":["African Americans--Kentucky","Civil rights demonstrations--Kentucky--Louisville","Race relations","Louisville (Ky.)--Race relations--History--20th century","Public relations--Kentucky--Louisville","Discrimination in housing--Kentucky--Louisville","African American legislators--Kentucky--Louisville","Insurance agents--Kentucky--Louisville","Women legislators--Kentucky--Louisville","Kentucky. General Assembly. House of Representatives","Kentucky--Politics and government","Depressions--1929--Kentucky--Louisville","World War, 1939-1945--Social aspects","World War, 1939-1945--African Americans","World War, 1939-1945--African American participation","Lincoln Institute (Simpsonville, Ky.)","African American schools--Kentucky--Simpsonville","Mammoth Life and Accident Insurance Co. (Louisville, Ky.)","African American business enterprises--Kentucky--Louisville","Insurance companies--Employees","American Red Cross","American Red Cross--Employees--Training of--Washington (D.C.)","Discrimination in employment--United States","African American soldiers--Great Britain","World War, 1939-1945--Great Britain","Great Britain--Race relations","Supreme Life Insurance Company of America","Housing--Law and legislation--Kentucky","Employees--Training of--Law and legislation--Kentucky","African Americans--Kentucky--Politics and government","Racism--United States"],"dcterms_title":["Oral history interview with Mae Street Kidd"],"dcterms_type":["Sound","Text"],"dcterms_provenance":["University of Louisville. Libraries. Archives and Special Collections"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["https://ohc.library.louisville.edu/interviews/record.php?q=Kidd%2C%20Mae%20Street"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":["To inquire about reproductions, permissions, or for information about prices see: http://library.louisville.edu/uarc/digicollorder.html; please cite the Interview Number when ordering."],"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":null,"dlg_local_right":null,"dcterms_medium":["sound recordings","transcripts","oral histories (literary works)"],"dcterms_extent":["application/pdf; audio/mp3","p.; 02:40:00;"],"dlg_subject_personal":["Cunningham, Raoul, 1943-","Martin, Galen, 1927-2006","McGill, Hughes E., 1920-1970","Nunn, Louie B., 1924-","Powers, Georgia Davis, 1923-","Stanley, Frank L., 1906-1974","Street, H. L.","Kidd, Mae Street, 1904-1999"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"kylouu_afamoh_oh416","title":"Oral history interview with Robert Key","collection_id":"kylouu_afamoh","collection_title":"African American Oral History Collection","dcterms_contributor":null,"dcterms_spatial":["United States, Illinois, Cook County, Chicago, 41.85003, -87.65005","United States, Kentucky, Jefferson County, Louisville, 38.25424, -85.75941"],"dcterms_creator":["Key, Robert, 1914-","Friedman, Robert"],"dc_date":["1977-10-25"],"dcterms_description":["Oral history interview with Robert Key, conducted October 25, 1977 by Robert Friedman. Mr. Key was a musician. He was born in Louisville but really launched his career in Chicago before touring as a singer. In this interview, he discusses his career, including the stint he did in the U.S. Army in Asia and Europe. He also discusses the music \"scene\" in Louisville in the middle of the twentieth century, beginning with the nightclubs that were open in the 1920s-1940s, under segregation, and including an assessment of the clubs hosting live music in the 1970s. Mr. Key also assesses the local talent, and discusses the difficulty of making it as a performer in Louisville.","The Civil Rights Digital Library received support from a National Leadership Grant for Libraries awarded to the University of Georgia by the Institute of Museum and Library Services for the aggregation and enhancement of partner metadata."],"dc_format":null,"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":["Audiocassettes 416 and 417, African American Oral History Collection, Oral History Center, University of Louisville Archives and Records Center."],"dc_relation":["Forms part of online collection: African American Community Interviews, Oral History Center, University of Louisville Archives and Records Center"],"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["African American Community Interviews Collection (William F. Ekstrom Library. University Archives and Records Center)"],"dcterms_subject":["African American singers--Kentucky--Louisville","African American musicians--Kentucky--Louisville","Nightclubs--Kentucky--Louisville","Singers","Musicians","African Americans--Recreation--Kentucky--Louisville","African American theaters--Kentucky--Louisville","African Americans--Music","Discrimination in public accomodations--Kentucky--Louisville","Concert tours","Radio-Keith-Orpheum Corporation--Employees","United States. Army--African Americans--Europe","United States. Army--African Americans--Asia"],"dcterms_title":["Oral history interview with Robert Key"],"dcterms_type":["Sound","Text"],"dcterms_provenance":["University of Louisville. Libraries. Archives and Special Collections"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["https://ohc.library.louisville.edu/interviews/record.php?q=Key%2C%20Robert"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":["To inquire about reproductions, permissions, or for information about prices see: http://library.louisville.edu/uarc/digicollorder.html; please cite the Interview Number when ordering."],"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":null,"dlg_local_right":null,"dcterms_medium":["sound recordings","transcripts","oral histories (literary works)"],"dcterms_extent":["application/pdf; audio/mp3"],"dlg_subject_personal":["Key, Robert, 1914-"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"suc_mblogan_47","title":"Speech transcript, 1977, Bayard Rustin to National Conference on Human Rights","collection_id":"suc_mblogan","collection_title":"Marian Bruce Logan Collection of Civil Rights Activism, 1945-1989","dcterms_contributor":["University of South Carolina. Irvin Department of Rare Books and Special Collections"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, New York, New York County, New York, 40.7142691, -74.0059729"],"dcterms_creator":["Rustin, Bayard, 1912-1987"],"dc_date":["1977-10-06"],"dcterms_description":["This is the transcript of a speech given by Bayard Rustin regarding what must be done to protect and preserve human rights, as well as making sure that all humans share the same rights."],"dc_format":["image/jpeg"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/CNE/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["The Marian Bruce Logan Collection of Civil Rights Activism, Personal Correspondence, 1945-1989","Mss. 2017:6"],"dcterms_subject":["Civil rights movements"],"dcterms_title":["Speech transcript, 1977, Bayard Rustin to National Conference on Human Rights"],"dcterms_type":["Text"],"dcterms_provenance":["South Caroliniana Library"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://digital.tcl.sc.edu/cdm/ref/collection/mblogan/id/47"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":null,"dlg_local_right":["Copyright Not Evaluated. For further information please contact University of South Carolina, Irvin Department of Rare Books and Special Collections, Columbia, SC, 29208."],"dcterms_medium":["transcripts"],"dcterms_extent":null,"dlg_subject_personal":["Rustin, Bayard, 1912-1987"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"noa_sohpcr_r-0128","title":"Oral history interview with Geraldine Ray, September 13, 1997","collection_id":"noa_sohpcr","collection_title":"Oral Histories of the American South: The Civil Rights Movement","dcterms_contributor":["Navies, Kelly Elaine","Southern Oral History Program"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, North Carolina, Buncombe County, 35.61122, -82.5301","United States, North Carolina, Buncombe County, Barnardsville, 35.77761, -82.45485"],"dcterms_creator":["Ray, Geraldine, 1937-"],"dc_date":["1977-09-13"],"dcterms_description":["Geraldine Ray is a lifelong resident of Barnardsville, North Carolina, a small town near Asheville. Ray describes her childhood and young adulthood caring for her disabled grandmother, working on the family farm, and attending all-black segregated schools. She recalls racial segregation as relatively easy to avoid compared to the segregation and prejudice that her black neighbors practiced based on skin tone. She devoted most of her time to school work, raising livestock, cooking, and helping to plant tobacco. She learned these skills from her grandmother because her parents left the state while Geraldine was young. Geraldine briefly lived with her father in Cincinnati before returning to Barnardsville to care for her grandmother. She sacrificed her love of education and desire for a career to nurse her relatives and friends through several illnesses, though she also endured health problems. The interview ends with discussions about her marriage to childhood friend J. T. Ray, her two miscarriages, and raising her two children.","The Civil Rights Digital Library received support from a National Leadership Grant for Libraries awarded to the University of Georgia by the Institute of Museum and Library Services for the aggregation and enhancement of partner metadata."],"dc_format":["text/html","text/xml","audio/mpeg"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":["Forms part of Oral histories of the American South collection."],"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":null,"dcterms_subject":["Family--North Carolina--Social life and customs--20th century","North Carolina--Race relations","African American women--North Carolina--History--20th century","African Americans--Segregation--North Carolina","Buncombe County (N.C.)","African American women--North Carolina--Barnardsville","African Americans--North Carolina--Barnardsville--Social life and customs","Farm life--North Carolina--Barnardsville","Barnardsville (N.C.)-- Race relations","Segregation--North Carolina--Barnardsville"],"dcterms_title":["Oral history interview with Geraldine Ray, September 13, 1997"],"dcterms_type":["Sound","Text"],"dcterms_provenance":["University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Documenting the American South (Project)"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://docsouth.unc.edu/sohp/R-0128/menu.html"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":null,"dlg_local_right":null,"dcterms_medium":["transcripts","sound recordings","oral histories (literary works)"],"dcterms_extent":["Title from menu page (viewed on July 18, 2008).","Interview participants: Geraldine Ray, interviewee; Kelly Elaine Navies, interviewer.","Duration: 01:21:53.","This electronic edition is part of the UNC-CH digital library, Documenting the American South. It is a part of the collection Oral histories of the American South.","Text encoded by Mike Millner. Sound recordings digitized by Aaron Smithers."],"dlg_subject_personal":["Ray, Geraldine, 1937-"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"ffc_crlsa_p15415coll1-1048","title":"Joseph Shelley : Transcribed Interview","collection_id":"ffc_crlsa","collection_title":"Civil Rights Library of St. Augustine","dcterms_contributor":["Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, University of Florida"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, Florida, 28.75054, -82.5001"],"dcterms_creator":["Shelley, Joseph, 1915-2007","Colburn, David"],"dc_date":["1977-09-06"],"dcterms_description":["Interview with Joseph Shelley, mayor of St. Augustine during the height of the racial crisis in 1964. Begins with a short look into Shelley's early life and then moves onto race relations in St. Augustine. Press relations are mentioned and their accuracy in reporting the conflict. Describes speaking with governor Bryant about the formation of the biracial committee and also the election of the city commission. He also speaks briefly about the demonstrations in the city and the arrival of Martin Luther King, Jr. and Andrew Young.","-c-r-,-Ti; ;;:es \"\"'fFi1:\"i=rl\"1g'1, .....,.,o .1...1 e-L\"\"w-o-t+rlJ. r.e.~ e!r\"'lfl\"i'o'ITu\"'I- +.;ft -ve .,, ¥-Obi •·rant to ask me q.ues..U.ons .or:_y.ou Just wa~.., ... ..,.? _ C: Well, I would~i·ke to talk about your background~rrs@\u003cj'Z' a f:(tt1t:\", ~ - ·-if tfiat 1s a1ta9, , - .. s. I I _,., c::::::::;::..- C.._o-~ -1 l .... ~ C: S: .c.. 7ot1 ges. ,.gQ. -a heed, I 'm se; I g;t s: C: -Am:t';here did you go to co 11 ege7 S: The Uni ve rs i ty of F1 o r i da ___p. .._..f..__,.J..w_·_._e_e_·\"t_.- ---.j::::---- C: I saw from the diploma you_went to Temple? is thet right? Then I went to Temple~~ :f~ I i~ :\u003eeptember \u0026 .f means I graduated in~ 1942. S: l'7JJ3,,,,,_ ~el'tembet 138-Which Jackscn?f 4- C4M(I.. rt. -1-eA,.\"' e ¥'months in combat ret·~iri~ to this country j et fl. vt. (\\ \"4- , Germany 1 feeF1:1e7 4, and we had to sail out o~'..'.,.. ..,,....._ __ ....._.. _c .. 19~ 0 . \"-:. s: . ·•. '.. . . '' \\' number ten, We spent the night there on the boat·· ~-----------~----..-......,_ ~, . ... ,, ..... \\,' ... ,,,'.\",\\-\\\\',',' '\u003c ' h . h . ' ' somet 1ng or ot er'-·-------------------------~-'-'.. '.. . ......- CRSTA 6A pC!ge 3 mjb s: 11arcb HospitC!l, Dr. Lockwood came.over vtsrtrn9' . \\ . ......... ~-~--~~~-~~~~~~--- he said, C: What got you involved i·n pol itfcs;'' surgeo~ \"· .,_--~---~- --~~~~---..,-~- S: Well, we had a situation on the city commlssfon, There wcis an ciwf u 1 1 ot of.\"-'' ' , -·+h~l-c~.k_e_r_~~~~~---..,-~----------~~--somuch so~~k~~ C: _. $: Just out of curiosity, who came into\"'. \" \\ \\ pOt '[' . ( b~ Caplf!_ . th-·. f\u003c_l!_A_e.t_7'_t!-c/-,-~'1--------- Let 111e ----:F:---po 1 l't tcs· .·wh~ · -~ stcite attorney for the seventh Judi'dal circui1\\lj._ l/e ran i'n 1954 and '·' I lost the first election ,,_...tr_11_J_~T-·_. .w... . ..t.1.._ ..$...__ __________ ~----- h.3 Cfi'4 ·\" t?.i7\"i b .. (//1;~/~fl\"Vi1- c-'f~,e; -:he got\"\" In te rested in po 1 it i cs '• ;[knew I Cdi1~ft. ttCJf bf a tZ.\u0026 (,-{, ?:rt:•e. {;;!,. ?01/£1 \u003eff' a{lr r -ft,..., \u0026/1-. o.1gt. H f f/l~d;. · · · · · ~ · · ·.. . ·. and we had two other men and we were getting ready for our four hundredth anniversary celeorati'o~\"--·\" \"- -- C: Right, S: · go out there and tell the nation ----- CRSTA 6A pqge. 4 roJo ,, ' S: E.lected··. .·. ------- selected oythe mayof',___ ____ srx county commlssio~,. ..·.. . .'. --- w_.. hile .,. was up the re~ Pr. l:faye5) \\.-.-------·-·_ . . . . ___________,_ .,_,,....·- '-.-- C: Now, have~ there beeen any proolemsrnen you mo~ed tn-here, ~01:,r you're'''',' '\\ \\\\ d f, \\ t) 1vf. ..-, _ have there Eiee.-A-a~~ W·~~, ~{~c.: V\t!)r-e · (.r()ft:t/t·Ufll 1 \"C;j { s: Absolutely not,· f\\Jo.u.... c..J(w'{sut\u003e~ert) I would say half of my prac'\u003c:' t!cel'h- 47{ {\u0026st, \" ' ' ~ At 1 east oa 1 f my practice is )-k {acf\u003c::!J ·' more than half of them are black, ~I was well known tn the black community..·,,. .._ / • r ',/e've 9ot aho11t like I said, we had the first black pol iceman in Florfda-.'\" '', ' ' ' t'~ ..... ? : She 11 ey , Dr. on the extension for you, -~---- (BREAK) S: We have a Dr. Gordon ~--------~-----~-------------.......- very we 11 l t ked, I 1 d say anytime...:. .. \\._.- ----------\"-·_ . ---------·_ ' , ,_'- .. '\\.' '.... .. CRSTA 6A page 5 mjb S: As t sc:iy · W L · · · · · · '· . \\. . . '. . .. \"\" . ', ', ' \\ . \\. . .. \\. ' ' ' C. •. \\' . . s: '\" . .......----~-------.---~-~-~~----~----------.--~---~----.,_..-- .. un \"' 10011-g-, ·~e was Stif- J~._. turned-arot1nd . \\.' . . '' '\\ Martin Luther King's · · · · f:t//( d frJ. fl).,... 1\"\"'~---\"- .. 1\u003c-I\"_; _____________ \\._~ and 1:6-kl him t:o-c.lea.r~u.t, i'nvf ted him up to see\u003c· .....---~-~-- I was, I I' ·'' t asked him~ ! satd, Nhy are you al 1 comi·ng to St, Augustine?\"'--'.·. ... -~------- ' ,,, We're coming here because ~· ..........- --------Birmingham, Alabama-\\. ·..·..., '. ._ __. ..,._ _ ,, C; Is ft, is this i:ilso, maybe, was this the------------------- s: have wrltten' \\. \\. .,........~----------------------~ and I sat and talked to him and I said, ls there anything the city of St, Augustine I, I 1 i ke it in .......------------------------------...._.- -··-----··----------------------------------------- CR.STA 6A page 6 mjb s: Then about two days after ta 1 ked with hi·m he came out and sa rd there had beeh 13 i'n the ctty of St, Augustrn~\\' '\\.· · ~-~--------------- ....... ..------~-...... --~ pub 1 i c, pub 1 i ci'trwi se the newspapers '--... '------ Now, if you go back before th is happened, rrght after t went in to serve as commi s\"' sioner, one of the, l don't remember who it was ----------------- '-.. '\\ he wrote his parents that word WCIS out on the campus there\"\" · ---...----~----..-- '\"\\\"':\"\":'\": =lb It f'1 V'01/(P of students, white studentS'-\"\\ \"\"-... -----------.....- -----------~·stir up trouole and we wanted to be prepared for it, '\\._\\\\.' ' '\\. \\ ~ \"-'· -----Vv-~-. ~t-,-t~J _____________ _,,, . ..-----~~-----~---~~ that ti~~~ three~--------------------------\"'-''......., \"\\\"\"'' · C: tlHnk even more mC1ybe, than tnat is residential tntegratron, That 1·s the one thing tlll.f--- S: This town fs more integrated residenti\u003c'llly than any communtty fn the state of '-.. Florrda, t can take you to five different sections-------~-~---·-\"-\"-\"'-\\-.\\-\\.. ......... Broad Street ----------~----------------~~--~-~---~ South Street\\'\\/\u003c?.1· liri··· .. \\ . ' ' . '· \\ .. \\ ' CRSTA 6A page 7 mjb s: Central Avenue But, uh,,,. \"\". . . \\ \\ . . ' ' '' \\ \\ \\. . ~~-~---~-~-~--~~~-~~~~~~~~~,_....-~,-..-~~ C: You're talking about the, uh ........ ~~--~-------~~-'-,. ~~----~....--~-..--- S: Yes, and he told hfs, he told hfs parents somethln~'' ,,_.....---~---~~~-~--~~ ........ ~ \"· ~ ---~-----~---~--~-~~-~~~~---·-~....-.~~- Wel 1, just before the Eas·ter hol idayS'-',· · · · · · · · · fellow came around and ~~----~---~~~ \\ 1 ong distance ca 11 from Bos ton, t1ass ,'-- ---~---~~~- -~~--..-~-~-~~~---- t D\" ,, \" ,, Xou know Mrs. Peabody? And I sai·d/1No, t never heard of her~ '~h \":\u003e .,, He safd, you know ~ who she is? He said we 1·re taping this party- ........ ..-------~--~--~~~----.--~~---~~--- ' \\ She 1s the mother of the gove~or of Massachusetts, George Peabody,\"~'\\·· . \\\\ \\. ._,.\"\" \"\"\"\"--~~ ....... ,......,......., ........ . '\\ / '''\\ ' ' \\_\\\\\\.\\ \\ '\\ ., \\,: . . \\. \\,\" '....__ \\. Did you know she 1s coming down here to cause trouble? t said, what will you do if ./..£ t 4v she comes down here and breaks ~11r leg? And I said, W-el 1, law- is made for everybody--------------------- break tne law.'-..'.-.. ....... J!7_0 _ 11_n_:t-_P_ '__~. .r .. _1 -~:} ~,\u003e;\" The next day somebody handed me a paper from Ba 1t hnore. _____~ --..-A~e_tt..,.J~/_/~_l_'_ _ said, \"Mayor of St, Augustine Threatens Governor's 'Mother,''' ...·.. ..·. --~--~-'. '.·... ,.·,·.' . ... ·.. .. .... and that was a c1 irnlmt+ remark. We have one set of laws that apply to everybody and if she comes down here and creaks them ~~----~~~~~~~~~~~---~ C: Just out of curiosity, whlle we're on that point, how about evaluating the press coverage of St. Augustine, S: Wel 1, the press, when the thing flrst started, they came down fl.ere and set up headquarters In ,_ ' -..., \"''\\\\_\\_ Initially, w~n it ftrst started, I had a lot of mc:dl from all over the country, - --------------------------------------- CRSTA 6A pqge 8 mjb s; C: '- . '\\'\\. \\'. -,_ My ma i' 1 WC'IS- '.,..../_U,. ,.'. .~ _11_·;_~.,..,~ --~--- pu0-1 re op rn t·of1',_· . ' ' '' '' '-' '' ' .. \"\"'\"\"'' --- ·. \"\"' the trour:n e came;~:.-·:'· · · -_- · ---~~~--~~~~----~ TV and newspapers ---~---television complete E1nd - - · 100 per cent,\\! Tb.e nlnety per cent, ~- . l\\ the ninety five per cent of our population 0-el ieve wf\\at''s on televt'S'fon 1 or what they read ln newspapers, and they read nothtng else for, to !Jroaden their s-vt-Jut .1 _ . ~''\" -- . knowledge of the -system, And ,. -maijed i'n at lea~t 7J rn fqY01'.'\u003c '.. . ,, .. \\ .. \\ ~ \\, . ·. \\_\\.,' - '' - \\.. now I got long dlstance te 1e pnone call 5': ...- _....,....._~--_-_-.'. . ... ·. .· -·---.' ..' --~'.. ..'.. ...'. ._,_-_',.....'. .'. .. .'. . ,,...... ,...· · '\\' '--. \\• this is how it exp res sect-'. ..·.. .....................- -----·.. .·. . .· _·_·_.. ._-_._.. '_'· ..'. . .'.. . .\".. _... '. .. .'.. ,_,_, ......... s t·tm'lt \\'0:1 1 ii ~\"'. .... .. ...... , ... \"'-' \"~ ''\\'. .. ~'-~ How d~ tl:ie, how dtd· you reacO:i reacl:x·S' · · '· '· · ''' '' '·, ,.,. '.,., ''' · \"-'\u003c\\ 1 ' ......,.. ................... _...,__ _ _,..~---........ --~ ................ ~.....-..-.-.~--............... --.. how did you become a spotzesman fo J7 tO:.ero? S: Well thfs, thts ts a good potnt, - \"\"\"-\u003e · II t think tQ:e.whole. thJng i's-- S·et -up' reached out to 11Je., '-..:~;\\ · '- ~\"-~y · · \\,-.. ,.,. ! every nfght when I•\\.\\.,_''' And they would get up there, and boy-,........ __________- ..,.\"-:_.\"..'-\\.-: ._.'.:.'-.... ..... ...,... ....... ......,.....-·'\\'-..~~\u003e, . ' . \\._\" \"\" --..,..----~-~~-~~--~---~~~~~------~-~--------~-.-........ ....,._ ............... '\"\"~' . ~\" .. \\\\ .• , .• .• \\\u003c .... {\\-. This was ffittch troublesome, We as-ked our state Clttornet\u003e· · · · · · · ·' ,. '· \\' '' · '\"\"-\"- ' - , to COme Up here and See and J f sten to\\, wh,(L +.. h( [_ J1 Cf_ t ,fo ~t ~'-, breaking some law, and he came up here~ listened to us, sat'd,'-.\".-.·.. .·.- -........ ....-----\\·.· .'.. .. .'..\". .... \". ..• .. . ...... ------------they got the freedom of speech, they can go up there. and '\\(. . . \"-,'-\"' say anything they want, you c,:m't do anytnrng aoout ft1. Tll.ls l~'\" ,,, · ,. ,. · \"-\"\"-- this is Law enforcement officers in th.e dlstrtct·S\" ''\\·. · \\.:~\\','-'_'\\ . \\_\\ \\ \\. ' \\ . -----~~~~ ........ .--...-.-. CRSTA 6A page 9 mjb S: Oaytomi i C: The recison t say th.a.t~s remtirka.tHe ts- tft~~~m~~\":.~~:: \\'~,::\\,~,~~~,~,~-:~,X(,·:·,,'.~, ... '\u003c' .....,,,, ······ ......... ..,,...... ................. \"\"\"\"\"' later crtttcized tbe people,,, S: I know he did. C: ••• for lettrng, lett[ngl.yncft a.nck': ·Srt\u003e~cr······,· people, s: I μ It's, lt's a plain di:imn t te, fte went, fte went to Bos-ton, talked !Jefore q 6'o~\u003e.-ton Unfversity crowd, I bel teve·, and satd that we, the city offtci'als:~\\ di'd notbJng to f \\.It e;t I/\u003c I ·~IA r iop /P\"i \" sFop _;t%tf ·Cl td ~vnr~ , We drd c:d 1 we collld -do-eind-Bc se1id, fr,e::I Ir H· o; .. ,, •. t.~ orJ ar,/cetJ \"''\"' \\Vhtt f lv-l C('1U;J ~!) (tt•d l;l ~did. ' ()·· \\ _,/ /\\ ''You can't touch them~ Then he goes up to 6ciltimore and says we would do notLlng, '\" . \"\"'\"'\"', \"\"-\" They don 1·t tfl. l nk' . . ' . ' ' ' ' \\ \\ ' \\ \\.\\.' · ·, \\ \\\\_\\ .\\ . . ,_ .. ~· q \"-' «.:;; ' !I . . ' televtsed, we could tel 1 wtle.re eyerytb..i'ng was goi·ng to l'.lappenJ' Just watch the televisi'on pol lee, pol tee department could tell ~l we could tel?\\.\"\"'~~~,·~~~~-~,\\~~-\u003c~(:\u003e\\ 'I ----~----__, __________ demonstratron~ and a· lot of i't Wf:ls,' was-- arranged, put on People were actually f''Yi//j f 0 I saying whltes ~ loo~ l fl\u003c;.e tn.ey were oeattng blacks up and whJtes wasn\\'t~ tt was a terrible lie, C: What, uh, what sort of sb.er1't1f i5'-~\"-- . [.. t}.,. S: 1, 0, ,'.s · e..kfl\"lrd 't.· · · \"-' · ;- Q I . ' . ·\" . ' _\\ . . \"'' - ' . \\_ . ., A.itW tt\u003c41S:: ~ .. '.' ., ·,• - .. \" .. ,.. . ., ,, '\"'::- . \\ . ' ' ' • ·- ' ! \\ \\ ' \\ \\ l. \\ \\ \"'' • '' \" \\ \\ ,_ ' .. ' ... ~-\"' .. ,. '\\.'''\\\\, situation · · L • · 0, Davis had the support of the ~lack community, It's ---~-~~~-~ '', ' had €1 store down tn Wasfll·ngton Street-S''- ~.,.-.~--~~-~~-~~-........ ~-~ ..........-T\"\" . '.' ,, ' ''. \\. . . . \\ . \\ . . ' \\ . ' \\ \\ \"· ', ~ ' \\ ' \"\" \" \"'\"'· '\"'\"'\"·'-\" ''\\\\,\\\\.'\\..,'' -~---~~--~-.----........ ~~~~-..-.~~~~~~-~~..._..-~....-~~.......-..~ CRSTA 6A p(:lge 1Q mjb C: ' .. s; ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '...' . ' ' ' . I .. .. '-'\" ' ' \\ \\ . ,\\ .\\ ·' ' \\ \" .\\ ,\\ ,_ : \\ ·\" ' . ' . ..... ,. ,.. . '\\..'... . ' .. \\ ' ' \\ .. \\ . ' ' . \\ \\ .... \\ ' \\ \\ \\ \"\\ \\, ,\\ ,\\ ·' ;-.. \\ \\ \\ \\ ' ,_ ' \"\"''\"\"- they televtsed hfm, They,, tf:ley never asl\u003c.ed me or te 1 evi'sed me, They represented peop 1 e :··:' . ti f\u003e' ' );l/1J ' 0\\ . . ' . \\ . ' ' ' . ' ' \\ ' ' . ' ' ' . . \"'~. . . .. . . .. . . people~·.· ..-.....,...-.--~--~~~---~~...-.---.....-..................... ,..,,.... .................. ......., ......... ..,.......~ .......... ---- him to the Amertcan '· ' cross sect ton of the .. ' .. \\ . ' ... \\,.. ' \\ '\\ \\ '•\\ ., \" \". ' . ·, . \"... . C: How about, uh, you to 1 d me that Boston ts~ bow aoout, uh, tb:e press· cover~ge In was it~ will you describe ft as tnaccurate7 . ' . \\ ' ' . ' . ' . '. . . S: At least as inaccurate 1 may5e wcrse 1 We only had one, we only hcid one ~1ri'ter . . ' . . . . . _, ... \"\\ . ' ' '· \" . . '\\ '· had a prepared statement:/~·~·-·-·-·-·-·-----~·-·. ...· -·-·-·---~~·_._._._._._·_._'·-·-· ....· _·_,_·_·_··-\"-\"... ..........· lj he came to my house on East;er Sunday morning, t had coffee wHl'l him' I g:;we him tbe ~~ I statement, sat there and talked about t·t for two hot1rs, Wl'len fte wrote the arti'cle, he didn't mention one thi'ng aoout th.rs, He wrote tbe most llicised~\\ slarjer/? false \\ 'I You know, I thought the press was supposed to quote tfte facts, not 1 not puoltc opinion. C: You know, at that time, ~~~~~~~~~~~~- before the time of the civil of the nation#f, did you, did you feel, as a consequence that you were getting any hearing at all? S: Let me tell you about my personal feelings, and I was very sympathetic ----~~~~--~~~~~~~~~~--~~~~~----~- CRSTA 6A Piil9~ 11. MJB S: and I made up 1llY mind J · · ·w a :.5 · · .. \\ \\.. -------~-------------you jus1Y_·---------~....----..- \\\" t thi'nk, C: Can you de.sc.ri!Je ·_ ______a,_ '_'--,.....·h_· ./..L... . l..{. ,_· .· .6.. .... ;. ·. f__· ~t11..,...~-.:.'.t~. _ · _.··---------............. s: one n tght · · · · · · · · · · · · · \"-.· -----------------j,-y .,,.,,,,) J., h J v c fir. ((tt, 'wn i te boys'\"-. ........ .--------~------~~~ (.I,,'' pol ice station ----------------~ cal led me up'·· ..... ...--~-~--------- two FBt agents ,, they came down from tndiana, they started interviewing these tdds, '-- .·. --~~--- I ,, 11 te 11 you' he Sq rd·'-...... __________ _ l want a hundred years of you white people under my hee 1 l i ke we 1v e been under your hee 1 • '\".--'--..:,..;.,',....\".\"..· ... .- ----------------...- C1nd h.e di:d, Mr;·\"- turned to me and he SC!id, Boy,' there i·s~~ ·'- _,......________ ~ ... - . '\\'.\" ' C: So this was 163? s: Th ls was just·. ,._ just thrng started __________________ ~ ~~~ {,. This was right fn, no this was 1'\"3. C; Oh, I 1m sorry. 6 S: Right in from 1 ,~3 . \\ ' \\ \\. \\ ---------- ---------------------~........_ That wasn't the interesting way, the way people'\\'\\.. ~-------------~-,......._ '-\\.. C: Yeah, s: . ' ..... ' . \\' ' ' ·. ' \\ . \"' CRSTA 6A pqge 12 mjb s: ,_, C: Did you hC1ve much work wtth · '/(}'11~ · \"\"' ·. · · ~-----------.,+~-~----., '' S: I~ MY~ J,· J rtdf fcu. . . \\ ' ,, C: s: ··,, ·, '-. ... '\" ... ''\"'·''\"• Uh, we were talking C!bout, uh what uh, King Eind wt\\etner you were meeting or not, '\\:· Oh, he, he was coming tn stcite for a dt'!y, rnC1ybe a n igt\t when l\\e took off-.\"-..''\"'\"' \\ The only time I, t never drd tC!lk to hrm, He never came and talked to me, Never asked to see me, Matter of fact, Andrew Young drdn~t I'\\ Pr..11° I s etit fo r ht m. t SC!ld, I want to see the ~'.. ·... •------~~-..,_.,........., 1 f(J S/tt- Ir h C!Sk to see me; Nobody, nobody involved ·_·_1_n_·~l_1ta._....t_·- 'M'-\".\" \"o'-v_l_M_._t_J1_ _. _f_._,_... _ ever asked them to coll'!e fl. rtfr1~ttf,1!;\u003c/t· I }j 11 ,,_. J,Jtr1 / \"\"(}\"\"' I -to:-me, \"fftey P.5 t 11,. lo fOi'Vec fv ,....t, ,they~- ' , .. -\u003c_ · dowh I l), ·1 ~ ----- ~,_~_~ _ __:..f_o_ ___~ -~---~·-1-f~A~t~y_c~;...;.;.;.~.;...;-t_ _f_ o~9-e_f_t_'v_.~_·1_q _~ ~nd they were f rC!nk, Andrew J J Young told me, s€dd,uWe 1 re dying on the vine, W'e ''Ve got to get some pub l i city this summer and we need tt fast C1nd we need it qutck': C: Did re s.ay why they were dying on the vine, just out of curtosi·ty, were they loslng '\u003c \"'\"'::'\\:. out to the maybe more militants or~~-------~------------~------~---'-\"'~'-·~ S: I don 1 t know. don't know what the reason for lt was, They weren''t getting -th\u003c publicity through the press, I guess, C: Uh huh, s: I don It remember' This rs w A I l'1 + I i1 'i firltJ I laf ... \\ .. [(c.rc!/) F6.f'f\"I S fjr,Yn•FJ C: What about uh Governor BryC1nt, was he pretty cooperattve? S: Up to a poi·nt and then be became just the reverse ~nd t \"11 te11 you an h1stanoe CRSTA 6A page 13 rnjb s: the president, was very anxi'ous to get this chdl ri·ghts oi'll p(!!ssed and signed li.t '' and~wants ft sJgned on the fourth of July, • II This was around sornettme In June,,c:md he wants you to form a committee in St, Augustine, a f'\u003ei'\".'ractal commi'ttee, ~all Martin Luther King, and do anything he wants you to do; e.;a;-, Cooperate with hi·m so we can get this, gi've Kfng tJ:t:\\: i.e--victory-.....-. --·~-·_IJ_.,.....,_t __v,.-_, \"I\"t,- __jr _ .I' !J-+-r:.-· _ St, Augustlne ~ o /f ca 11 ed me up · ~---------- -~-~---- +h\u003c )t,!J/tj'h+\\{fl and Mr, Wt1 Jf told us what it;.~(LlC!r frri~:fl./).J/'f-5\u003e lCfi ~ ca1rlhim and ta1k'Jto him aoout a1J 41 al;r; c4//1l Gt; ... r.f_V\"J1~r ---- (arr,· s /3ryo11 -f fr\u003e) P ~fa ,.J A ad ~~11 i' ~ co\" ht)1 T v/ I A 14 r J./'ol/ and we discussed and kicked it around ~nd f kicked the oall andrsa id, 11 Mr. ''.t./,; Ir, . ? B ( l 1 f s going to ,, I you've lived here all your life and said, 1Thls Civil Rfghts ,. be signed in the next, _v_l ,,.+_/ ___ week, two, coup 1e of weeks, We knew it was ((JM ;~~1 i,cavsr At Mi v~ . 11 . I said, When tl'i:at happens,· all tl'.lis t·s going Y~M ~ I this, -we~r~ going to douole~cross your Ytrv frlend~ ',., t ~; ! C0f'l\\ff'1•r;fv , \"'We're going to sell the communi'ty ~'--~~--\"-'-~-'-'...._ __ ~--- ~l out to give Ma rt in Luther King the victory so we.. caft.. ? 0 · fo · ---::;:;'~---~--~---~--~... .... t./ t' t .J !,A )I { Jq ' any other communit~- 4$ry see what we dtd in St, Augustlne~! we Cqn do t·t ,.. ,, to be finished,~nd I said, Now you do ,, any place else we want to !Ind that'·s- ....... -----------~----------\".....- Another mqn that that m.:in supported, Mr,'·\"·\"'· tf:lqt~,s tb:e way you 1're ~·-----~~- going to be, CRSTA 6A pa.ge 14 mjb FPYY-: 5 rlght s: tn hls offtce----~--· _. .· -·-·-·-·-·_ . ·_·_·_·_·_· . .· ~·-·_·_· _, .· _· _ 1'.t.e cal 1ed ~fN\"Sh Brya,.,i- l' F~rri5 '' '\\ · , . ~ up .:ind scitd, ~' he scii'd,\"No dotigb. or no d~ce.·.,..·-\"-·-·-·~--~~~-..\"... .'.'.,.. .,.''-°\". \\..... - '\"'/n l ;t,, L./,tS 0'1 d t Monday afternoon, Tuesdciy nrgl\t, natronal television came out, sard, · \\~~~-~-, Tuesday ntght, na':' c~. ~ ~~;~,., (1-fr: (.. t.ryo~ tional television came out· Governor..PqFFfsrrannounces that 11e has formed a ... ' bi..-raclal committee in St, Augustine, Well, all that group that attended that meeting that nfght were · 119.H.tr · · dtS/U-tJf t C(J//{ J I s-aw a couple of them and in cioout thlrty minutes the)'. were T ~ ~t J.,./lr( '/Podrct:1 house, fvery6ody was all mad~ as a wet hen,~nd t got f5rot19ftt into the city I' : . attorney ov•f ti.._ '(l . a ;rJ hl ~,;J 1 l~ok let's don'-t go off half cocked~ 1 ___________ _... ______ ___,,_/ ~ ' I' WI He said, The governor~---------------- and ~11 ve got to On. ~-_h_t,· findoutwhcit 1sgoi.ng ~1.iJ1,.,. .,·..), _':!;' ,. ' I J I I I k/tJ1·r,., ( ··t\"tt(. tlitey-mayor ca1l8.the governor from my office in tl\\e morni'n9''( \" v ~it A le. ........ ----.------- +.t;; was July 3; /e called the governor up and had IHm on tl'!e phone and!satd, ''Governor b r YO Y1 t , what in the world''s going or}~' '' ----~-~-.......... 6+ 4 v,q~ t; f ,\\.;t ' ' something a little fishy (( ' ' \\' oar, t' M JI M ~ ~nd he said~ ,, 'l!J' er \u0026yor, if .= . - r) -' you''l 1 promise - ,, that you' 11 never reveal this, 111 l tel 1 you, Of course me being ·a simple 1 ittle idiot~.,.now I'm political ---------------------.... ~ ?h·j ~-·~ I lf!1)\"f.J..1''1/!1 _:t.. _ ~._/ _iv_.!_..,..Y__._ti_H_ _1_ 1·1. .... _ _1 .v_1 _r_)__._:f_· _w.__· 'P_n.._I · _'?_\"·\" _r_' . He ~a i d {'We 1l , t lte t r u th of t t i s ~ I . I I haven't formed a committee in St, Augustrne, I said, Yo-u mecin to tell me, Governor' , and Robbie Andrew was listening In on the extension tn hts office; Ytt said,bYou mean to tell me that you formed no commtttee and~ you told the people of the state of Flori'da that you had formed a committe~1~nd ne sard, //That ts ~' ,, right. said, Do you mean you've 1 i'ed· to all the people In Florida and in the ' ,1 satd/1Now don 1t ·\\\\ United State\"S? ~nd he you start ca 11 t ng me. nqmesw mc:in, scild, ~ ''Look, youire ci lyrng so--cind-so, You sai'd it yourselL You tell.us one thing and you make an announcement on national televisfo1{ §Ind l'.te di'd H to pcidfy CRSTA 6A page 15 mjb s: -------..,; (; tl Senator Smathers and Lyi:idoi::i JgaRSeR., the presl dent and· he hung up tlJe. pl}one in a. ;:~ big fluff. We 11 , t kept my word for a.b~out a year, year and· a !ta 1 f and sa rd, · t ~ ~ . don't know why t should keep my word to a li~r and then t Q'egan to tell people ; o.l. what trank...f-9.e\u0026. He never dfd form a comrnl'ttee and this was orougllt out fn thi's I pamphlet flere, l't was very strange, no commJttee,~nd the next dciy, ThursdC1y, July 4, tne Civi 1 Rights Bf 11 was si·gned tnto law out the announcement had been made that a bi-racial committee had been formed and that was to get Ktng out of here with some kind of a vr ctory · · bt C' t? K'5(1 · -affli he was. i'n .--------------~~ Washington when the president signed the bfll. The minute that happened C: Well, you did have some problem afterward because Monson 1·s restaurant had thrown out, • , , S: Now that is before the Cfvil Rfghts Bfll was signed, That was at the hetght of the demonstration. C: Wasn't, wasn't that, I think t'm right here. I think you~re wrong 1 S: . ,,,,, C: Remember •••• S: th l nk they ' \u0026{ .Pfir rk C;'v1ll/ioJ/111:/I W;tc \u003c).~~ ------------------------------+--·- ,tF C: think they tested. They went around and they tested some of the, some of the Negroes who stayed tested the bi 11 and then Manucy'·s. n 1 S: You may be right, You may be rtght, C: S: C: s: ... picketed, picketed some of the restaurants, You may oe rf ght because I, I, the dates .-----------------~-- Dldn 1t }ast much longer, but ft,,,, It didn't last ct long, uh; tf\\ey dtd, Manucy picketed and the re.ason t!\\ey dt·d rt, Monson was the headquarters of a 11 the press and the te levts ron,; '}t?J . C/Jd~tl4.~z'~ · and__;j\";:..,._; \"'--\"'.:...:''.,1..Y_. _..:.,if:;_r .;;..O_t.:...lz_·_· -----------~-------..--...... ~ ..... _o_\"_c_l1~t.,.\\_I_'-._,,,_' I CRSTA 6A p,:ige 16 mjb s: I' () t: ·• · f · I . /) '1'.. . . J 1\\' fl~'· f \"(i )' .:;. .. . . ' ' . . . . ' . . \\ ' ~ ' . ' ' ' \" . :the -po i::e r- 0n Here's a statement that t made f~the morntng, July 7, 1963, C: Uh huh, (Jiaf/ir . 1 · S': She 1 ley mak.es .aft statement to dtizens on racfal relt1ttons/rto tl'ie citizens of As ,, / ~ 1, ) St, Augustine. ~the mayor of St, Augustrne ·w-\u0026S re~~'\"'./\\ 11 v t )\") 1t · StttJ 11L1\"$.\",\\ S: \"I feel that it is incumbant on me ·h Q «( c ;f J a \u003c0 .. , Io 1 is ten to the radio, reads the papers, or whatever.\" bl(l -k; doing no th f ng to he 1 p the situation, But of even more importance, there has been a failure 6? · tl1t · /u;tJ/ · !Je//c5 ' to speak out i-n 011 /·h/5· ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~---~~ subject, tn an effort to bui·ld pol itfca] f\"t};w I ,. .J l) -G4.o.u.t -an.cl maintain themselves in offlce, pol itlcians have resorted to the old political ·ir-iCX of using minority groups to accomplish ~~~--~~~~~~~~- thetr objectives, In effect, such politicians seek the mtnortty vote by calling the fr\\C\"-,jcr;+, names. \\JV/\\/~ ' 'tf you don 1t vote for me, those other people will mtsuse you) Not once have heard of a sfngle /t~)tr dH,v'' or -l.R-tervi.ow. on the nationa 1,.,state level say that our Negro citizens that along with equal rights go equal responstbilittes, ' f rte Ao~ · · o ~ · ......-~~~~~~~~~~~~~~--......- c .5 association Is t.b\u0026t tnal tenable, fnal ienably a part of our Bil 1 of Rfghts as is freedom of speech, freedom of relfgton and pursutt of ltfe~ liberty and happiness\" -\u003e, t wrote th i's myse 1f , ......-~~~~~~~_..,~~~~~~~~..,......~~~~--...-- ( /' f would remind our citi'zens that justice demands a fair consideration of the right eyJI c11r fitcr!', (u (/ r. + yt d rt'., of~~n ~e ~the words civil rights and equcllftybave been misused ~ \" - - - - - - ------------------------------- - CRSTA 6A pC!ge 17 mjb ) ! ! ) ' i . t ) '( r s: .. a t}l~ t;. t. Q .... u n t if .. ·!·~ '. , . 1 .. · .. law. There ts no such thtng i'n tilts world as two equC!l people, From the moment of otrth, infants show indivrdual differences, Some are pbystcally stronger than others. Some develop more r\u003c:ipfdly, Others snow defects, bot!\\ mental and physi:cal, as they age, Some are born witfl naturEtl talen~, God\"'.'given tctlent), if you wish, A beautfful voice with which, voices wrtl\\ which to slng~ How many Negro boys are Stan Musial at the plate? How many whrte boys are equal to (' How many Einsteins or //d,.,,it-rr/ · ;t·rka vers' are equal to.a Wfllte Mays on a baseball field? the re \\/'\\/·~...--..........,.~ among us? No, even t n God~ s eyes we a re not eq ua 1 ,. v/Oo , I .r but you have equal opportunities to prove the goodness or 0C1dness~,··o.L7?Jr'.--\\ , ? I' \" J \"' ~o rt vo-f for J lrv Equal employment opportunity has been\u003c.· l}NrD · ltttdf..- /'/? ·. J)J/5 v,,c. ,,, oil dri1.tc.. +1:'0o requal r'1ghts, How q.,tlhltfe y apparently fail to recognize that the key to thls problem is education. The drop-out rate in our public school system ts the ~~~~~~~~-of our education problem and hence, our employment problem' and thrs problem ts not peculiar to the Negro race alone, The drop-out rate t~ ;he white race is entfre.ly too high, tn this day of automation and high tech ... 1 .+ \\\\~Y nological requirements, 'Ettl uneducated youth, both Negro and whfte, represent a bi:\u003ef.(J;.,? problem and often are unemployable except for common labor, but ~~~~-\"-~~~ here again /eltdcr') of both races have fatled to attack this problem ~~-'--~~~~~~~~~ vigorously, Integration of our public schools has not solved this problem_ Witness the publi'c schools tn Washtngton, D. C, t\\o It/ They have been fully integrated for many years and are a national disgrace to this ...l)e (; M5f- ) r·s--time far educators in this country · 5 f.J!;y.., \\,\\,jv_:Ji C to solve ' this prob 1 em and it 1 s st i 11 , , , • C: By the way, hadn't St, Augustine integrated its schools tn 1·63? S: We had the, yeah, the school was integrated and the paroch.tcil scnoof,\u003c~~ ~ was always an integrated school, CRSTA 6A page 18 mjb C: s: C: S: I ·;I tt was done, it was done -voluntari'lyk/~~11\\1 I · ·t~'uri~ cor•rcf-, tt was done on a volunatry oasi's~. 1The J ftnest educators in this !I lo ~/e,f-country seem utiaBle to solve this problem, Therefore, I say \"Wat: you f'tetve personal responsibility (;,. ·f~e~e.· action9' '\\ ; rtl I' I! /'f\\ ( (\\ 1 t·4 i~f) ------;\\-· ____ ..,.....,......,.._,._ 1\"he laws are made tn Wash fngton out any i~\"O'rT of tf\\ese 11:1ws, to great extent, t admonish both our Negro and whlte dtlzens to beware the radical fringe ln b\"C\u003eth places, Use prudence and reason so that we may avoid the pitfalls wfltcn can destroy the '\\ '• respect and friendship which are the foundatfons of a good race relatlo!'}'-'-'·\"-'\"-''· C: Yeah, okay, yeah. S: \"The ctty commission of St, Augusttne situation, problem, however this is J as passing the buck, No decision by a committee of thts type could oe.\" .. , of the legal fmplicatfons fnvolved, The city commtsslon ts responsible to all ()(1 Jy the citizens and can ~o ffiOl\"e accept recommendations from any commtttee which would ---------------a possible law sutt by adding a 0-ona fi'de '\\. legal status, Furthermore, a bi~racial commtttee'\\. · ~~-------~--......---~ -----------~ will polarfze the white race the the Negro race and -----------~· · · · il 'S'S H•\"'l.tli'v'll. that there ts a racial difference because the city commt·ssion of St, Augusti'ne interracial stand that ft fs responstole for only munfciple · \"'-\\~'; · \\\\_~~~~\"-' ...-~~~~~~~~~-...--~~....,...........- ,, fadl i'ties, Let me tnterject here that at that time the state of Florfda hqd, by_ CRSTA 6A pcige 19 mjb R; a trespass law cind these were the things that, uh, the, ttl.ese dernonstrcitors C: S: vro~'' ; ~, would do, They wepe- go.ftfe ¥tJJ a store downtown and lay cil 1 over tt\\e floor 1 ike a and the people cotJ 1 dn \"t get in and out 1 ~----~-~--~~-- They were about to arrest, to call the police to come down there and remove them, {).,~!' \\mty the state tresspass lE:lw, police depctrtment had not ctlternative accept to go down and remove these peop 1 e phys i'cct 11 y from the p rem r ses, there's still trespctss tng lctw __;_~ _1:1_·1_ _r_ J.._;v._r_t_·_ 1 _, __________. _~-\".'.· .~. \u003c. ... .·... \" ..\".. .\"...- '-'·-·. Yes? ~~Nt/ I think there's stfll trespass law out they wouldntt, they were! th·ey werel\\in the erf: pt Of') \\N ~ (') state ctnd these were the 1€tws on whtch we mi'.'tde arrests 'at thes-e, ~ were violat\"J1 ing ----·-·. f.._. l_~-_C_l_l)_·- ---- for their own personct 1 reason~ \"'-·o ;\\ J · fAt 1'\u003c:,p.). .y n - It W€1Sn 1t by ordinance, It wasn 1·t oy the crty commissron or a mandate from the city government, 11The city commission nas no legal or moral r\\'ght to tell any merchant how to operate his business- The decision, any decision to file an order to has oeen set forth ln the ~~---~------~......-~__,.,_......,..~ previous statement. f.\" f ..._ n '. ~ ~\"'I\\ s ) r Cl (( rt / ,\\ ~ ,· !J f\\ s . t\" I) l . ~1:1l~tf01 '', regu 1a t i ori-s-___.,_ .f\\_. . .· _)_·_l_· _1 :1_·-.... f!_t1_~. ·_?_i_~_.. , _h_.e__._ '·~\\,..._. _ making statements to that effect, . b\u0026- f~ ,-.~((!, ,, Parents of teenage cf\\ildren~should know..,.~and this, to me, is an important statement, cause bel teve tnat right here is the start of the lack of respect we have for law in this count{(r) todciy and it, L c l t l\u003c'. \\./J1U ( think it started back in the (ivil f('ights ~ovement~ ~ klds, twelve, fourteen years old--were urged to go out and break laws, any law, tf you didn't ltke ' the law, go out and break it\"'.-whether~· it was a good law or a t:rad law:-not have it changed through the legal process, just go out and break the law, And I predicted then we were going to see· ,/I/ 4 f rampant crtme in this country based ~~,'-'-----~----~ on th is IA r4il\\~ of young people to get out and if you dontt like something do awciy with it' ·A Vi J· I ·f h, nk r'Ir and t think it ~s\u003c \" ' ' ' think it's coming fos·t, '! this country, I Pa rents of teenage children of both. CRSTA 6A page 20 mjb S: races snould know where their cnfldren cire at al 1 tt'1nes and sttould not let tbem to Be put In a situation which cc::in lead to trouole, tt rs a resporisNl'flity of parents to see that thetr ch i1 dren a re home at an early hour and know whom they are associating with all 'tl:le. tim~ One of the Baste tngredi·ents of good citizenship ts a respect for law and order, I would lt'ke to take tnls opportunity ~ ~. ri'ff 1s fo COf'\\~~-'\\Ci\\~· {)V..r--tM enttre poltce department and tne ~errtfts. office for tne speedy and efficient handling of the recen~ i Ylt ·/Jtfl t t.vl,c~ 'tJcCf1v·cJ. I 4 .Suen fndrviduals nave demonstrated good cltizenshif} /f1· .. Ti.f'bt--t/i-12 f-r:;, \\,/V\\./' police r J'\\l~ ~ e r;' (' s I) t i~'\\ ( ;) .1~1 J 5 /t ~I; \\.r; l,rf.; J?. .\u003e 1-J k f A~flc;.tr.(/- f hl shooting. fl J')J /At!f v.,~.\\v I . because ·Some tlHngs transplred earlier out t-~never did call the polfce department C'.f/d -ft//· nol~Jr l.br?!Af /./- ''\"- t:tt just let it 10 OY\\· ·ufti· ···tn{·· f/.f:··· t;/\u003e//,·. /},.e··5lc,dz'r.q, ;:; v ''but certain individuals had demonstrated good citizenship and reported~ police ~he series of in~.1~~ /eoJ;1-i}·vp.. ·fnJ··of-· S/ic·Qnf'', C: Uh huh, she told me \\,A/Cl5 C: +s- there any bickering on the commission at all during tha~~ ....... ~---------~ pol icles7 C: How about the business community, do they pretty much support or were they,,,, vJd) S: MQ, I think the best damn thrng we ever had is I got the largest vote that was ever given when I was elected to the clty commission. ~~~~~~~~~- ran two more, for two more times, was re~elected both times, One time I was unopposed and I· come within about thirty votes of getting...----------- and I got wr thin th i rty votes of the .;._.. _____________________., ,..·,- '-·, ,_ CRSTA 6A pcige 21 mjb S: in pol tttcs and God, I· was elected, re..,.etecteck '\\. --~~~~~~~~~~~~~--_...,- C: Thatts so~ something •••• s: I thinkwtth my, l thi'nk the communft~t\u003eusrness~wl'se and al1s1Jpported.the city commission and the er ty government\" --~~~~~~_,..~~~~~~~~~~~--~-- C: l\\ppreciate your time, I, I really want to .... t ran into one.·f-~/il.{ lo/1y 7-l~f . w~ !, ov~r tAf ' v S: C: S: s: who was reat ly interesting. I .go.AG- the H?stodcal Society and there was an •1 If .1 ,, election notice and I t/l.5Sv.r''1f'. t(- · was 1·65,~ sat'd4 Attentron, citizens of our city, don 1t be mislead. It has been revealed that John Bailey, Carlton O'Neill and Dr, Joseph Shelley made a secret pact with the Nattonal Association of Negroes for Integration, It says two thrngs i 1} to integrate all our schools, motels, hotels and so on; and 21 to appoint Negroes to the quadracentennial committee, 0 /, Vote, it says~at the bottom,'vote to elect R,C, Blackner, Jim Dart and Harry Gutterman. ,, Save our way of 1 ife, fht__ Alright, }et me tell you what happened on that, The morning of/\\e 1 ect ion '.day they put out 5,000 of those folders all over town, Daylight, on the morning of election day, John Bailey and Carlton OfNeill called me up, Harry Gutterman\"Jt \\,(./~~ on the commission. J Uh huh, I B)1,ch1~ r w~~,if- tttd_ , , ,who's the other one? 111D1t/J 5flQ.f //. tf'my Here Oll and that was a, that was, they figured that~ by putting all those damn folders out that it would be too late for us to counteract it. John Bailey called me up and Carlton called me up. Carlton O'Neill was upset about it, He said, 1 \\lhat are you going to do? . '' /I You ought to get on the radfo and deny all of it, I said, Hell, Carlton, anybody that knows me knows rt's not true, Anybody who knows you and knows John knows it~s not true,\\ \\ I said, II Don~t let lt bother you, forget it~' ' Wel 1, I CRSTA 6A page 22 mjb S: I got the most numoe r of votes and John Bal 1 ey got the next 1 a rges t number of votes, Car1'ton didnit win, Harry Gutterman was the thtrd guy ~'-~\"O\"n ' ....,.::;o-;..__,._.........,,....,._ l wr . ~{},tf\" Blackner got beat, That was i·n the FUFI, C: Was Gutterman really involved rn this thtng? Thi5''., ·..:. •. -1 f:.-·_A_1_·11_t;.__· . --------.-­S: I think he was behfnd it, C: Yes? S: Quite frankly, He was quite, he was a pol itictan, Somebody was behind it and I think it was somebody in that trio,,, c: Wel 1,.,, c: ••• and I think he was the most likely prospect and f 1m sorry that, that he 1s not C: s: Huh? for- P ~iof C: ••• fie.r comm i s s ion I\u0026 ~, s = Ye()\\\\ · -do11 1 t aS'f\u003c except he later, Harr'l\u003e later ran for..., f:!e had a file on about 1500 peop 1 e 1 n this town, ~tte;:::a~ l f he cou 1 d get about 1500 votes, he could get elected,~Harry \\vrrS · (( .to~{tA //!fie cr/fl(J'r; μ,_ ¥eY had a, a small group of people in this town and he was like an actor on the He didn't work. He was retired, He was, he'·d been an enforcer for~:: ...f.._ h_t._ __ There was, l wasn't involved in that thing cause I'm waiting on the city commission. He was on the commission before I was, A group of guys tried to get him removed from the city commisslon because he was, '-._'··. he was arrested on a felony charge up there in New York some place fo~' --~- ---------------some people down or the\"-_. ________ _ C: Do you know, do you think he really -----------------------~ That he,., CRSTA 6A page 23 mjb ! S: No, he didn~t think that, That was strictly poHtfcs, Tf:'lat was. stri·ctly C: $ po 1 i ttcs, strictly politics, :j'\\dtt ? Jv. lf What about dtm' S impson;'S.( Don Simpson? V\u003c nJ~ r Don Simpson?· I flna11y made a, t finally passed a, a, ffi..my powers as\u003c\\'\\'\\,_··~~-- mayor, I I'm empowered, under the law; the mayor's empowered~ under the law;__ ___ _ to maintain peace in the communf ty, In other II(! v1..r/J.J vJy get up and say,...irJtttf:';_~ hold your right .:.· words\"' t can get up.~/it ,, Plr))i'c7 1 • f· 4l IA.f 1' hand 'Ofh t can swear him in as a deputy and say everyone here who takes this oath of offlce has got to obey me right now and do what I tel 1 them to do. The mayor has that right, I got that f have, t carried a paper with me at a 11 t i mes so t co u 1d i nvoke that rt gh t .....:-.tif\"-f~.:...fh_;....11_,,.yj'-.·: :...(}_!-_· ._ _.= _:.'- \\\"\u003c-.:_ \\.·. .,....J.. ,·. ... ./'\\~-1·.. ,......-=---\u003c''+-;,...c· ;1,.__.. and I invoked that, We were getting to the point where we were afraid that the blacks weren't getting much of a following ti·11 at night, They decided to march at night, They wanted to stir up violence and I think, now to be honest with you, King and some of those people and Andrew Young and the rest of them wanted to see some Negroes murdered in the city to really put the fmprfnt on us~ to really give the Civil Rights movement the thrust it needed1 just like happened -::­:; down in Philadelphia '·\" ·Civil Rights moverient, ~-~----~----~--~---- We were afraid that was going to happellJSO I passed a what._ you call Ct a no marching from 8:30 at dark at night till 8:30 in the morning, They could march all day long~ but because we~ve got poorly lighted streets and real narrow streets, real dark and hard to police we felt we couldn\"t rri11_rcf,er5 protect the~Mff~vJQf'Ui~~-~.A/j/\\ • Judge Sfmpson said they could march. They could march any time they wanted to, Well 1 I overruled Mr, Judge ____________________________________________ ['\"__ - CRSTA 6 pC1ge 24 mjb S: Simpson. °'\\iqd /~ /:tf · ()fl · ~e. cal led m~)·~ ·Of! · ·lorft-lflli\u003ccrfcourt~ t1~~v;_~\"\"\"'' _c_,_o....,u .r..e... -...· ============·=·= .;=~=d~r_o_.;.IJ_· _O_o..;...,:1_,s ...... .' --·-· . ·.;...,/J_n...,;J_._ft_a 1 ~~/1r ia n +i . , , ~ ,\u003c, LC $till at that stage tt was '; \\ J back 1'rt' 1-1' vv- ~ '1 · lcrs /n · · . - - k'/JJ!.S --1('-·\"\"\"b,_f_f1'_,f\u003e _B \"\"-r_.y'-'.e. .\" ':..;..-r_,_'·----- and -Jimmy ·~tnes v1as ~ttorney ~eneral of the State of Florida and be had them reply ~~--~--------~~--~~--~ .......... ..--.~~~ :: the rvri+:t \"\"'Nf r4vr:1 t' ~, ~ if:deral court,anc.! I spent nine'9 (?,.. · \"'\"' y·nrlkf.J ~ days on this court and t never heard such,4( Mr, Ku1nsker an~\"'-..\\.. . .'. _._._._.-·---~--· attorneys 1 for the American Civi'l Uberttes Unton,9nd that t~ ShO.vJ(I weis IY!Cf.Jl o{;q I \"-:. -R-v+ .-n - -l-/t-r- --'-'\"- --- to them 5'00tt-kl what he ·had- hl~~ · 11J 5 I. 0 r.v.fJ this country what a, what a, I don't know what. He should hcive been barred from law practt·ce. He broke every rule ~r;!. court- · ; roceJ\\. n · fAa J. 1 /u·1.:. /s /o hreq.f:. q i-i l ,t thttf- Jl'~1- let him get away with it. It was obvious up there11Judge Simpson had been made a promise by the President of the United States that if he would let them do what they wanted to that he'd be promoted and he was promoted to the Fifth Circuit . ~v.~Jdl ~ of Appeals. We had Chester who was the finest lawyer in Florida at that time, C: Jacksonville? S: Jacksonville. He and Judge Simpson were close personal frtends and they fell out C: . completely~ Judge Simpson f,ktt\"'f-.,c_\"/tl:.ie ~the court, He just let this guy· K!Jf 'f\\sJ/er do anything he wanted to, He'd browbeat witnesses. I got so mad one day in that court I got up and stomped out right Jn the middle of court and walked out in the hallway,,nd Charles Q\" 1' ~ ., v• \" /\\ , Chuck ·_ _~t _J·\"\"'\".-1-\\\"\"-. ' '.1.i_ ___\" ~ was down here representing NBC or CBS hl on television once in a while. '\" \"' ~--------~-------~~~----~ S: He was taere for two years, tC! 1 ked to him many t tines cmd he was a great adml rer of Martin Luther King and we would discuss all angles of it, I walked out of that courtroom and'\\'''(:QV~~A\"\"~\u003c walked up behind me,-:-followed me ou:,and he. said, 11 Well, mayor what do you think of the proceedings?' I said, 1\\1 think they're /\\ /-0 bt CRSTA 6A pcige 25 mJb s: \" the loustest, this ts IJ,,l ~~JI{ WI$ ~cfir3 . . I the lous·rest damn tl\tng five ever wttnessed,H The way 0 h /J,~ 5/P1·Jd , ''r h tl . He had a young Flortda ~ighway fatrolman witness~ and he was;orowbeatrng that boy and frying to cross htm up and contradt·ct him,ctnd the boy was smart. He was 11 '°\"'~-e.; WIS : /;\u003e!\u003e going to 1 aw school J~ f f'V'.i? f!~i\" '-.... -.zJ..~· ' He st ucifEifl'; 'tr'· {yhn~f/er tJ+e.. 1 awl- ~nd · +\\~.._; ( O\u003et) h ---=------~couldn't cross hlm up but he just used every tact rel\\ he -needed ~ use to try to make hfm lose his temper and tt got so bad • I got up and left the room, Qi~~flt\\ followed me out and right be'\u003c:' --~--\"\"~,_....._-~~~ hind him there was a big old marsha11, federal marshall about six foot two and he and t got to be real good friends and as a mcitter of fact t think be ts still up in Jacksonville !..\". d he walked out behind :; he was · · · · · · · · and I thin~ about rw... +/,-((I Q (1 !till' ~' {v//ov,1td ~ out rn tb.e hal 1 because 'fo Oi.ti'1r1 1'111,/..1/I turned t-b~ 00f'fl9-f0 and he said, ~, what do you ,, !lnJ ,, 'f.JIJ.. \" ? 11 I said, ListenAno good son of a bitch you , I said,''t'm fed up to here with you and your two.,..faced way you're handling the ' I t •J.,. \\) It. 1;,1 Qkll'. I• way yoJ talki!Rt ~and I said,'1·1 1m fed up with that judge in there and I'm fed up wl th that farce~ that's going on that they 1 re ca 11. .1 ng a trt•a 1'4-'' and I said,11 Don 1 t you ever come up and talk to me agatn: said. ''t don't want to see you again. ,, ,, I don't want to talk to you again, What do you mean, what ,, II do you mean? I safd, If you don't get away from me rim lfable to hit you right ,, between the eyes, That was the only trme I lost my temper in two years and he turned around, he got right and walked off and left s and when he dfd that big ht : marshall came up to me and reached out and grabbed my hand and shook it and~said, \\' ''Mayor,· 1 wished you would have hit him. He said/11 feel the same way about this as you do:' That was the biggest--- )(uhtt5/).t\"'r '.5 · · '- son sat rn that court-:- N \u003cf/ie/ tltf room with a qqiO girl.,.-\"Ga h~d a lot of people from St, Au~usttne i \"\\ r h.\"J 0, nd necked her cind krssed her eind hugged h.er cind not ~ 1• once did Judge S j·mpson ever say, That wi 11 not h€1ppen in my· courtroom~ When I something humorous happened qnd some of the people in St, Augustine s-nt·cl\u003c.ered CRSTA 6A page 26 mjb . I I ' 1, .. • - , , •. ·t:_ ~. · /,.. /Jr1 \"'.·t· ,I., /1t S'' ~; s: ___v v_v.. . ..,;1_..._.1t...._l1_....,-+-·----- and ~. If ya,, n do tl'i.at. agCl t'n, t 1111 c 1e .::1 r this ,, I J,... j_ •It courtroom, -1,· \u003e :e. ~ri i..v11\"1 That 1s how biased he was. Well, ! ffiilde 1.1p ~y-fl+nd ~Mr, Judge Simpson, I talked to my brother~ who i's an attorney, and my wHe and t said, r 1.t/ h //YI ' 1 r f this guy ff nes me a thousand do 11 a rs; thirty days t n J a i· 1 , I '·111 going to .ge- ir ~. ~. ... ,,.r,1~~ -lo 'JO ahead amt lot l'ilr\u0026..send me to jail' for ·contempt, for ·tnree ,mantns1;t 'rn gein~ to '~because I'm not goi·ng to· fctlj · 110 · · f1Y\\( f ' and let Judge Simpson run like that and while our trial was in progress: the Ctvtl Rights Bi 11 was signed and the law Ct t\\ J ~---------~---~~~~-~~~----..-. . \\.. The trfal was never completed, C: s: Yeah, he went to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals~- He was promoted1 grid I think ff) : he was bought and paid for by Lyndon Johnson,.-~ let this guy Kuhnstler get . /l'J J..J A. Hl'! fn;b1b11 ~ctr ; , 11 /~ away with murder eR-4 I I\\ e. C (?Pr f r11Jr~. ~s U•a4::J..s (I'' / '1 ' ever s I nee. don 1 t understand how the guy gets away with it, His conduct in the Le. courtroom ... -'i-f'any other lawyer, anyplace else, anywhere else· did that, he'd be absolutely thrown in jail. Any judge would throw the lawyer in Jall'-'-:1111'('.,tl\u003c:ljy ho.,, t~;~ qt\u003cy Ol~~d· he did that) ~· got so daM n hJ . , to-!\u003eu;\u003c. - : l,A/ay3 v.1il~ f11~ \"\"'\"\"''o.ti t w1'f.J.. \"·\"\"' :a s,J;gA and o'Ote GQIB~ He parted O'ltel\"-~ lie did11.Lf:.., he c;U..d.i:+J..t stay ~· c: S: We asked Judge Scott ruled in favor of us and ~-----------------~ one thing wanted the court aoout-.'\u003e\" ~-------------- -~------~· Judge Scott, a federal Judge.;\"\"f.r/PV · fo f~ff have you =tkere, Incidentally~/\\ looked up the report of the Flori'da Legfslatlve lnvesti~ gattve Commlttee'l Have you seen that report?. C: Yeah. S: They di'sbanded that organiza.tion._,_._.. _ ·~\"·._.· · _.· --------- all thfs transptred and conducted an tnvestigatton, CRSTA 6A page 27 mjb S: C: S: C: . . . '- . \\ . \\ .' . ' ' \"' ' \\ ' . \\' . . . . ., \"\"\"-\"' . . . ---~-------~-~~ Is there anything that you haven 1·t told me that you thi·ng wi'l \"\",'·. .-. ---~\"----.- . \"-..· ' '\\.., No, except I think it took a while for relations to get l)ack where thet-~ · .,..._ I think they a re as good now as they were before c:d 1 this I ' happened and sti 11 feel the same way I did before al 1 this.~-·-·--------··-'-~ I say I still feel the same way, I was very sympathetic towards theblackpeople and their plight. I'm not as sympathetic today because\".. I· fh/11 k · -;f,,'Jpk is a bad dea 1 , I ~ our education is still the answer to it and some of them don't want to do it, They don't want to work,~nd I think the ' out in California startedthis case where he was denied medical school and somebody was •••• C: '\" S: They don't want it to go to Supreme Court and I think they're afraid that they'll, rule in favor of this boy that's its really going to be a blow to·","National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) -- Florida Highway Patrol -- Palatka, Fl. -- Monson Motor Lodge -- St. Augustine Historical Society -- St. Augustine Quadricentennial Celebration -- Arrest of Mary Peabody -- Civil Rights Act of 1964 -- Desegregation of St. Johns County Schools -- Lie-in -- St. Augustine City Commission Election -- Night March"],"dc_format":["application/pdf"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":null,"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/CNE/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":null,"dcterms_subject":["Civil rights--United States--Florida"],"dcterms_title":["Joseph Shelley : Transcribed Interview"],"dcterms_type":["Text"],"dcterms_provenance":["Proctor Library"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://civilrights.flagler.edu/cdm/ref/collection/p15415coll1/id/1048"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":null,"dlg_local_right":["Flagler College is not the copyright owner for this item, nor can the College provide a copy of this item. Please contact the contributing organization to obtain a copy and permission to reproduce this item."],"dcterms_medium":["transcripts"],"dcterms_extent":["26 pages"],"dlg_subject_personal":["Shelley, Joseph, 1915-2007","Colburn, David R.","Hayling, Robert Bagner","Young, Andrew, 1932-","King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968","Peabody, Mary E. (Mary Elizabeth), 1891-1981","Peabody, George","Lynch, Connie (Charles Conley), 1912-1972","Stoner, Jesse Benjamin, 1924-2005","Davis, L. O.","Bryant, Farris, 1914-2002","Johnson, Lyndon B. (Lyndon Baines), 1908-1973","Smathers, George A. (George Armistead), 1913-2007","Wolfe, H.E.","Manucy, Holsted, 1919-1995","Brock, James, 1922-2007","Bailey, John, Sr.","O'Neal, Carlton","Blackmer, R.C.","Dart, James","Gutterman, Harry","Simpson, John Milton Bryan, 1903-1987","Kynes, James W.,  1928-1988","Kunstler, William A.","Quinn, Charles"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"kylouu_afamoh_oh404","title":"Oral history interview with Maurice Rabb","collection_id":"kylouu_afamoh","collection_title":"African American Oral History Collection","dcterms_contributor":null,"dcterms_spatial":["United States, Kentucky, Jefferson County, Louisville, 38.25424, -85.75941","United States, Kentucky, Shelby County, Shelbyville, 38.21201, -85.22357","United States, Mississippi, Lowndes County, 33.47291, -88.44331","United States, Mississippi, Lowndes County, Columbus, 33.49567, -88.42726","United States, Missouri, Jackson County, 39.0085, -94.34609","United States, Missouri, Jackson County, Kansas City, 39.09973, -94.57857","United States, Tennessee, Davidson County, Nashville, 36.16589, -86.78444","United States, Tennessee, Shelby County, 35.184, -89.8956"],"dcterms_creator":["Rabb, Maurice F.","Cox, Dwayne, 1950-"],"dc_date":["1977-08-15"],"dcterms_description":["Oral history interview with Louisville physician Maurice Rabb. Dr. Rabb discusses his early life and education in Mississippi. He speaks of his experiences as a student at Fisk University in Nashville, Tennessee, comparing race relations in his hometown to those in Nashville. He also discusses student activism at Fisk while he was a student. He describes his medical education at Meharry Medical College, and his internship at Kansas City General Hospital Number 2, the segregated public hospital for blacks in Kansas City, Missouri. Dr. Rabb practiced in Shelbyville, Kentucky from 1930 to 1946, and he discusses his practice there, including his relationships with the white physicians in town. Rabb left Shelbyville for Louisville, and he discusses the difficulties that led him to make that move. He talks about his move to Louisville and the support (in the form of office space) he received from Dr. C. Milton Young, Jr. He goes on to discuss his work at Red Cross Hospital, and how he came to be the first African American admitted for post-graduate training at Louisville General Hospital. He describes other areas of integration, including the University of Louisville and its athletic programs. He talks about his leadership role in Louisville's Human Relations Commission, particularly in the area of integrating the police force. He describes his own encounters with racism, the changes he's seen over time, and his role in the sit-ins in Louisville in 1960. He also talks about the integration of public housing. He notes that his proudest achievement is his involvement with the NAACP; he was also a founder of the Kentucky Civil Liberties Union.The Civil Rights Digital Library received support from a National Leadership Grant for Libraries awarded to the University of Georgia by the Institute of Museum and Library Services for the aggregation and enhancement of partner metadata."],"dc_format":null,"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":["Audiocassette tapes number 404 and 405, African American Oral History Collection, Oral History Center, University of Louisville Archives and Records Center."],"dc_relation":["Forms part of online collection: African American Community Interviews, Oral History Center, University of Louisville Archives and Records Center"],"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["African American Community Interviews Collection (William F. Ekstrom Library. University Archives and Records Center)"],"dcterms_subject":["African Americans--Kentucky--Louisville","African Americans--Kentucky--Shelbyville","African American physicians--Kentucky--Louisville","African American physicians--Kentucky--Shelbyville","African Americans--Hospitals--Missouri--Kansas City","African Americans--Hospitals--Kentucky--Louisville","Discrimination in medical care--Kentucky--Louisville","Discrimination in medical care--Kentucky--Shelbyville","Discrimination in medical care--Missouri--Kansas City","African Americans--Medical care--Kentucky--Louisville","African Americans--Medical care--Missouri--Kansas City","African Americans in medicine--Missouri--Kansas City","African Americans in medicine--Kentucky--Louisville","African American civil rights workers--Kentucky--Louisville","African Americans--Social conditions","African Americans--Education","Segregation in education--Kentucky--Louisville","Hospitals--Kentucky--Louisville","Hospitals--Missouri--Kansas City","Medical education--Nashville--Tennessee","Race relations","Louisville (Ky.)--Race relations--History--20th century","Civil rights--Kentucky--Louisville","Segregation--Kentucky--Louisville","African Americans--Segregation--Kentucky--Louisville","Discrimination in housing--Kentucky--Louisville","Housing--Kentucky--Louisville","African American police--Kentucky--Louisville","Law enforcement--Kentucky--Louisville","Discrimination in employment--Kentucky--Louisville","Occupations and race","Discrimination in law enforcement--Kentucky--Louisville","University of Louisville","Meharry Medical College","Fisk University","African American universities and colleges--Tennessee--Nashville","African Americans--Education (Higher)","African American medical colleges--Tennessee--Nashville","Red Cross Hospital (Louisville, Ky.)","General Hospital No. 2 (Kansas City, Mo.)","Louisville and Jefferson County Human Relations Commission","National Association for the Advancement of Colored People","American Civil Liberties Union. Kentucky Branch","Civil rights movements--Tennessee--Nashville","University of Louisville--Sports","College integration--Kentucky--Louisville","Sit-ins--Kentucky--Louisville","Civil rights demonstrations--Kentucky--Louisville"],"dcterms_title":["Oral history interview with Maurice Rabb"],"dcterms_type":["Sound","Text"],"dcterms_provenance":["University of Louisville. Libraries. Archives and Special Collections"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["https://ohc.library.louisville.edu/interviews/record.php?q=Rabb%2C%20Maurice"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":["To inquire about reproductions, permissions, or for information about prices see: http://library.louisville.edu/uarc/digicollorder.html; please cite the Interview Number when ordering."],"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":null,"dlg_local_right":null,"dcterms_medium":["sound recordings","transcripts","oral histories (literary works)"],"dcterms_extent":["application/pdf; audio/mp3","02:03:13; 36 pages"],"dlg_subject_personal":["Du Bois, W. E. B. (William Edward Burghardt), 1868-1963","Young, C. Milton (Coleman Milton), 1899-1984","Rabb, Maurice F., 1902-1982"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"noa_sohpcr_b-0024","title":"Oral history interview with Broadus Mitchell, August 14 and 15, 1977","collection_id":"noa_sohpcr","collection_title":"Oral Histories of the American South: The Civil Rights Movement","dcterms_contributor":["Frederickson, Mary","Mitchell, Louise Pearson, 1906-","Southern Oral History Program"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, Maryland, City of Baltimore, 39.29038, -76.61219","United States, Maryland, Wicomico County, 38.36942, -75.63151","United States, Maryland, Wicomico County, Salisbury, 38.36067, -75.59937","United States, Virginia, 37.54812, -77.44675"],"dcterms_creator":["Mitchell, Broadus, 1892-1988"],"dc_date":["1977-08-14/1977-08-15"],"dcterms_description":["John Broadus Mitchell was born in Georgetown, Kentucky, in 1892 into a family with roots in religion and education. Mitchell describes his upbringing and the strong influence of both his parents. Mitchell discusses his father's education and career as a professor of history, his parents' liberal political leanings, and their community involvement. Mitchell also describes his perceptions of race while growing up in Kentucky, Virginia, and South Carolina. Mitchell became an economic historian; he describes in detail how the textile industry shifted its base of power from New England to the southern states in the late nineteenth century, and he talks at length about the impact of industrialization on southern communities. Mitchell became particularly interested in the politics of labor and race. He explains the purposes of labor education programs, notably the Summer School for Women Workers at Bryn Mawr College in Pennsylvania and the Southern Summer School for Women Workers in North Carolina, and his participation in those endeavors. In the 1920s, Mitchell moved to Baltimore to teach at Johns Hopkins University. In the 1930s, he came under the administration's scrutiny when he publicly spoke out about a lynching in Salisbury, Maryland, advocated for the admittance of an African American graduate student to the university, and began to embrace socialist politics. He resigned in 1939. During the years of World War II, he worked briefly at Occidental College and New York University before finding a tenured position in the economics department at Rutgers University. Mitchell continued to be involved in leftist politics during the 1940s, and in the 1950s he participated in a movement at Rutgers to combat McCarthyism in academia. Throughout this interview, Mitchell emphasizes the influence of his upbringing on his political beliefs, and he relates his own experiences to those of his siblings who also were engaged in activism related to labor and race. Towards the end of the interview, Mitchell's wife, Louise, joins the interview and discusses her career in teaching, her own community involvement, and her efforts to balance the demands of work and family.","The Civil Rights Digital Library received support from a National Leadership Grant for Libraries awarded to the University of Georgia by the Institute of Museum and Library Services for the aggregation and enhancement of partner metadata."],"dc_format":["text/html","text/xml","audio/mpeg"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":["Forms part of Oral histories of the American South collection."],"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":null,"dcterms_subject":["Virginia--Race relations","Teachers--Southern States","Socialists--Southern States","Southern Summer School for Workers in Industry (U.S.)","Southern States--Race relations","Southern States--Politics and government--20th century","Textile industry--Southern States--20th century","Industrial revolution--Southern States","Textile workers--Southern States--Social conditions","Johns Hopkins University","African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States","African Americans--Segregation--Southern States","Lynching--Maryland--Salisbury"],"dcterms_title":["Oral history interview with Broadus Mitchell, August 14 and 15, 1977"],"dcterms_type":["Text","Sound"],"dcterms_provenance":["University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Documenting the American South (Project)"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://docsouth.unc.edu/sohp/B-0024/menu.html"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":null,"dlg_local_right":null,"dcterms_medium":["transcripts","sound recordings","oral histories (literary works)"],"dcterms_extent":["Title from menu page (viewed on February 12, 2008).","Interview participants: Broadus Mitchell, interviewee; Mrs. Mitchell, interviewee; Mary Frederickson, interviewer.","Duration: 03:53:51.","This electronic edition is part of the UNC-CH digital library, Documenting the American South. It is a part of the collection Oral histories of the American South.","Text encoded by Mike Millner. Sound recordings digitized by Aaron Smithers."],"dlg_subject_personal":["Mencken, H. L. (Henry Louis), 1880-1956","Mitchell, Broadus, 1892-1988","Mitchell, Louise Pearson, 1906-1986"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"kylouu_afamoh_oh400","title":"Oral history interview with William Ealy","collection_id":"kylouu_afamoh","collection_title":"African American Oral History Collection","dcterms_contributor":null,"dcterms_spatial":["United States, Indiana, Clark County, 38.47718, -85.70728","United States, Indiana, Clark County, Jeffersonville, 38.27757, -85.73718","United States, Kentucky, Jefferson County, Louisville, 38.25424, -85.75941"],"dcterms_creator":["Ealy, William J.","Cox, Dwayne, 1950-"],"dc_date":["1977-08"],"dcterms_description":["Interview with William J. Ealy, Louisville newspaperman and political activist. This interview was conducted on August 5 and 22, 1977 by Dwayne Cox of the University of Louisville Oral History Center. Mr. Ealy discusses his early life and education in Louisville, the Republican and Democratic parties and political life in general, African American political leaders, and African American journalists.","The Civil Rights Digital Library received support from a National Leadership Grant for Libraries awarded to the University of Georgia by the Institute of Museum and Library Services for the aggregation and enhancement of partner metadata."],"dc_format":null,"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":["Audiocassette tapes number 400-403, African American Oral History Collection, Oral History Center, University of Louisville Archives and Records Center"],"dc_relation":["Forms part of online collection: African American Community Interviews, Oral History Center, University of Louisville Archives and Records Center"],"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["African American Community Interviews Collection (William F. Ekstrom Library. University Archives and Records Center)"],"dcterms_subject":["African American journalists--Kentucky--Louisville","African American politicians--Kentucky--Louisville","African American newspapers--Kentucky--Louisville","African Americans--Kentucky--Louisville","Politicians--Kentucky--Louisville","Race relations","Louisville (Ky.)--Race relations--History--20th century","Democratic Party (Ky.)","Mammoth Life and Accident Insurance Co. (Louisville, Ky.)","Republican Party","Civil rights--Kentucky--Louisville","Louisville Municipal College for Negroes (Louisville, Ky.)","Organized crime--Kentucky--Louisville","Theaters--Kentucky--Louisville","Simmons University (Louisville, Ky.)","African American business enterprises--Kentucky--Louisville","Music","Music--Instruction and study--Kentucky--Louisville","Universal Negro Improvement Association","Jeffersonville Boat \u0026 Machine Company (Jeffersonville, Ind.)","Louisville Defender (Louisville, Ky.)"],"dcterms_title":["Oral history interview with William Ealy"],"dcterms_type":["Sound","Text"],"dcterms_provenance":["University of Louisville. Libraries. Archives and Special Collections"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["https://ohc.library.louisville.edu/interviews/record.php?q=Ealy%2C%20William"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":["To inquire about reproductions, permissions, or for information about prices see: http://library.louisville.edu/uarc/digicollorder.html; please cite the Interview Number when ordering."],"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":null,"dlg_local_right":null,"dcterms_medium":["sound recordings","transcripts","oral histories (literary works)"],"dcterms_extent":["application/pdf; audio/mp3","03:59:15; 71 pages"],"dlg_subject_personal":["Cole, I. Willis, 1887-1950","Warley, William, 1899-1946","Stanley, Frank L., 1906-1974","Brennan, Michael Joseph, 1877-1938","McLaughlin, Lennie Lee, 1900-1988","Taylor, E. Leland, 1885-1948","Todd, James Ross","Summers, William E., 1918-1986","Pruitt, Earle E., 1902-1955","Petrie, John","Allen, Bessie","Ealy, William J."],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"kylouu_afamoh_oh498","title":"Oral history interview with Murray Atkins Walls and John Walls","collection_id":"kylouu_afamoh","collection_title":"African American Oral History Collection","dcterms_contributor":["Walls, John H., 1889-1983"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, Indiana, Marion County, 39.78171, -86.13847","United States, Indiana, Marion County, Indianapolis, 39.76838, -86.15804","United States, Kentucky, Jefferson County, Louisville, 38.25424, -85.75941"],"dcterms_creator":["Walls, Murray Atkins, 1899-1993","Cox, Dwayne, 1950-"],"dc_date":["1977-07-27"],"dcterms_description":["Oral history interview with Murray Atkins Walls and John Walls, conducted July 27, 1977 by Dwayne Cox. Most of the interview focuses on Murray Atkins Walls, although her husband, John Walls, is also an active participant. They were both involved in civil rights activities in Louisville and so share many experiences. Mrs. Walls discusses her childhood and youth in Indiana and compares her experiences in Louisville and Indianapolis. She describes her work in Kaufman's Department store's personnel department during World War II, and particularly focuses on Mr. Harry Schacter, the head of Kaufman-Strauss department store. She also gives an account of the integration of Girl Scouting in Louisville, which began in approximately 1957, following the Brown decision. The Walls discuss their efforts to integrate the Louisville Free Public Library, which had maintained separate branches for whites and African Americans. They discuss meeting with the library board of trustees and their interactions with the head of the library, Mr. Brigham, as well as the attitudes of Mayor Wilson Wyatt, who appointed the first African American to the library board. They also discuss the attitudes expressed in the Courier-Journal. They discuss black-owned newspapers and the barriers that African Americans faced in education and in housing. The Walls discuss the integration of dining areas and department stores, as well as residential areas. They discuss differences in attitudes between their generation, which they saw as working patiently toward improving their situation, and the generation of youth working for civil rights in the 1960s and 1970s. They discuss the dangers faced by African Americans in Mississippi in the 1930s and 1940s. The Walls discuss Dr. Walls' involvement in picketing with the NAACP, and the impact that she and Dr. Walls had on the lives of young people.","The Civil Rights Digital Library received support from a National Leadership Grant for Libraries awarded to the University of Georgia by the Institute of Museum and Library Services for the aggregation and enhancement of partner metadata."],"dc_format":null,"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":["Audiocassette tape number 498 and 499, African American Oral History Collection, Oral History Center, University of Louisville Archives and Records Center."],"dc_relation":["Forms part of online collection: African American Community Interviews, Oral History Center, University of Louisville Archives and Records Center"],"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["African American Community Interviews Collection (William F. Ekstrom Library. University Archives and Records Center)"],"dcterms_subject":["African Americans--Kentucky--Louisville","Race relations","Louisville (Ky.)--Race relations--History--20th century","Race discrimination--Kentucky--Louisville","Civil rights demonstrations--Kentucky--Louisville","Civil rights--Kentucky--Louisville","African Americans--Civil rights--Kentucky--Louisville","Kaufman's Department Store (Louisville, Ky.)--Employees","Kaufman's Department Store (Louisville, Ky.)--Employees--Training of","Discrimination in employment--Kentucky--Louisville","Louisville Free Public Library","African Americans and libraries--Kentucky--Louisville","Girl Scouts","Libraries--Kentucky--Louisville","Segregation--Kentucky--Louisville","African Americans--Segregation--Kentucky--Louisville","African Americans--Social conditions","Mayors--Kentucky--Louisville","Discrimination in education--Kentucky--Louisville","African Americans--Education--Kentucky--Louisville","Discrimination in housing--Kentucky--Louisville","Discriminaiton in public accommodations--Kentucky--Louisville","Civil rights movements--Kentucky--Louisville","National Association for the Advancement of Colored People","African Americans--Mississippi--Crimes against","Picketting--Kentucky--Louisville","Direct action--Kentucky--Louisville","Newspapers--Kentucky--Louisville","African American newspapers--Kentucky--Louisville"],"dcterms_title":["Oral history interview with Murray Atkins Walls and John Walls"],"dcterms_type":["Sound","Text"],"dcterms_provenance":["University of Louisville. Libraries. Archives and Special Collections"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["https://ohc.library.louisville.edu/interviews/record.php?q=Walls%2C%20Murray"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":["To inquire about reproductions, permissions, or for information about prices see: http://library.louisville.edu/uarc/digicollorder.html; please cite the Interview Number when ordering."],"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":null,"dlg_local_right":null,"dcterms_medium":["transcripts","sound recordings","oral histories (literary works)"],"dcterms_extent":["application/pdf; audio/mp3","50 p.; 02:00:00"],"dlg_subject_personal":["Schacter, Harry W.","Rauch, Joseph, 1880-1957","Brigham, Harold F. (Harold Frederick), 1897-1971","Wyatt, Wilson W. (Wilson Watkins), 1905-1996","Walls, Murray Atkins, 1899-1993","Walls, John H., 1889-1983"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"noa_sohpcr_h-0003","title":"Oral history interview with Clyde Cook, July 10, 1977","collection_id":"noa_sohpcr","collection_title":"Oral Histories of the American South: The Civil Rights Movement","dcterms_contributor":["Hester, Rosemarie","Southern Oral History Program"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, North Carolina, Stanly County, 35.31199, -80.25092","United States, North Carolina, Stanly County, Badin, 35.40597, -80.11672"],"dcterms_creator":["Cook, Clyde, 1912-1988"],"dc_date":["1977-07-10"],"dcterms_description":["In 1916, Clyde Cook's father moved his family to Badin, North Carolina, in order to find a job at Alcoa Aluminum Company. Cook describes growing up in Badin, focusing on his experiences in segregated schools. Because the schools were owned and operated by Alcoa, Cook blames the company for the inequalities he and other African American students experienced. Cook began to work for Alcoa at the age of sixteen; although there were times when he was laid off and found other employment as a journeyman bricklayer, he worked for Alcoa during most of his working life. In describing his experiences at work, Cook focuses on his frustration with racial hierarchies and the limits imposed on mobility for African American workers within the plant. According to Cook, the election of Franklin Roosevelt in 1932 marked a turning point for these kinds of economic injustices, although there were still obstacles along the way. For instance, Cook describes how African Americans were discouraged and intimidated by their employers during the process of unionization. Nevertheless, enough African Americans joined the ranks of organized labor that conditions gradually began to improve for them throughout the 1940s and 1950s in the plant. Finally, Cook briefly discusses his other activities in the community, focusing on his work with the NAACP. At the time of the interview in 1977, Cook was beginning his second year as the president of the NAACP in Stanly County, North Carolina. Cook describes the persistent lack of job opportunities for African Americans and his goal to open new opportunities for them.","The Civil Rights Digital Library received support from a National Leadership Grant for Libraries awarded to the University of Georgia by the Institute of Museum and Library Services for the aggregation and enhancement of partner metadata."],"dc_format":["text/html","text/xml","audio/mpeg"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":["Forms part of Oral histories of the American South collection."],"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":null,"dcterms_subject":["Steel industry and trade--Employees--Southern States","African Americans in steel industry and trade--Southern States","Blue collar workers--North Carolina--Badin","African American men--North Carolina--Badin","African Americans--Employment--North Carolina--Badin","African Americans--North Carolina--Badin--Social conditions","Badin (N.C.)--Race relations","Metal-workers--Employment--North Carolina--Badin","Metal-workers--Labor unions--Organizing--North Carolina--Badin","Aluminum Company of America","National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. Stanly County Branch"],"dcterms_title":["Oral history interview with Clyde Cook, July 10, 1977"],"dcterms_type":["Text","Sound"],"dcterms_provenance":["University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Documenting the American South (Project)"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://docsouth.unc.edu/sohp/H-0003/menu.html"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":null,"dlg_local_right":null,"dcterms_medium":["transcripts","sound recordings","oral histories (literary works)"],"dcterms_extent":["Title from menu page (viewed on July 3, 2008).","Interview participants: Clyde Cook, interviewee; Rosemarie Hester, interviewer.","Duration: 00:58:44.","This electronic edition is part of the UNC-CH digital library, Documenting the American South. It is a part of the collection Oral histories of the American South.","Text encoded by Jennifer Joyner. Sound recordings digitized by Aaron Smithers."],"dlg_subject_personal":["Cook, Clyde, 1912-1988"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"noa_sohpcr_h-0110","title":"Oral history interview with Oscar Dearmont Baker, June 1977","collection_id":"noa_sohpcr","collection_title":"Oral Histories of the American South: The Civil Rights Movement","dcterms_contributor":["Dilley, Patty","Southern Oral History Program"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, North Carolina, Catawba County, 35.66261, -81.21448","United States, North Carolina, Catawba County, Conover, 35.70652, -81.21869"],"dcterms_creator":["Baker, Oscar Dearmont"],"dc_date":["1977-06"],"dcterms_description":["Oscar Dearmont Baker grew up in Conover, North Carolina. He left home at the age of eighteen and spent several years traveling as a railroad worker and as a groom on the horseshow circuit. By the mid-1930s, Baker returned to Conover, where he followed the family tradition of working in the furniture industry. From the mid-1930s into the 1940s, Baker worked for Conover Furniture. He describes how that company changed when ownership transferred from Walter Baker to Jim Broyhill. According to Baker, the change in ownership was largely beneficial for the workers, as evidenced by higher wages and better benefits. During those years, Baker also worked briefly for several hosiery mills. In the 1940s, Baker left factory work for a time to run a cafe with his wife. When her health declined, however, they sold their cafe, and Baker returned to work in the furniture industry, this time as a worker at the Trendline factory. Baker witnessed several failed efforts to unionize workers during his tenure there. He explains that he voted against unionization because he believed that Trendline had sufficient wages and substantial benefits, such as the pension system introduced during the early 1960s. Baker also offers his assessment on community changes in Conover. He argues that the community has undergone much growth and has seen conditions improve for African Americans.","The Civil Rights Digital Library received support from a National Leadership Grant for Libraries awarded to the University of Georgia by the Institute of Museum and Library Services for the aggregation and enhancement of partner metadata."],"dc_format":["text/html","text/xml","audio/mpeg"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":["Forms part of Oral histories of the American South collection."],"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":null,"dcterms_subject":["Furniture workers--North Carolina--Conover","African American men--North Carolina--Conover","Furniture workers--Employment--North Carolina--Conover","African Americans--Employment--North Carolina--Conover","Conover (N.C.)--Social conditions"],"dcterms_title":["Oral history interview with Oscar Dearmont Baker, June 1977"],"dcterms_type":["Text","Sound"],"dcterms_provenance":["University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Documenting the American South (Project)"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://docsouth.unc.edu/sohp/H-0110/menu.html"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":null,"dlg_local_right":null,"dcterms_medium":["transcripts","sound recordings","oral histories (literary works)"],"dcterms_extent":["Title from menu page (viewed on Dec. 5, 2008).","Interview participants: Oscar Dearmont Baker, interviewee; Patty Dilley, interviewer.","Duration: 02:04:22.","This electronic edition is part of the UNC-Chapel Hill digital library, Documenting the American South. It is a part of the collection Oral histories of the American South.","Text encoded by Jennifer Joyner. Sound recordings digitized by Aaron Smithers."],"dlg_subject_personal":["Baker, Oscar Dearmont"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"ffc_crlsa_p15415coll1-1039","title":"Bryan Simpson : Transcribed Interview","collection_id":"ffc_crlsa","collection_title":"Civil Rights Library of St. Augustine","dcterms_contributor":["Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, University of Florida"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, Florida, 28.75054, -82.5001"],"dcterms_creator":["Simpson, Bryan","Colburn, David"],"dc_date":["1977-05-24"],"dcterms_description":["Interview with Bryan Simpson, federal judge who presided over many St. Augustine civil rights court cases. Recounts his involvement in the civil righs movement. Focused on his protection of the protesters, and views of civil rights leaders. Also expands and shows the brutality of L.O. Davis and the KKK.","Civil Rights-St. Augustine 2A Interviewer: David Colburn Interviewee: Judge Bryan Simpson May 24, 1977 sjm S: There, there are two or three main sections which you may have gathered from reading Mr. Ku.!rl'stler's connnents, also from other sources. The, the first, the first things that happened down there, do you want me to start off with that? Or would you rather ask me questions? C: Well, I was just going to ask you, the first one I was just going to ask . S: you was, were you involved in any of the 1963 goings-on? That was before­!/( Iv ,/, iv~ {\"-f-;l· 1A,.,.., I Well, that was, that was when they took, they got h.a.ilillg and beati~ piv •. everything. C: Right. S: Well, that, that came out, they never brought any action in this, in the district court, United States court, with reference to that. C: I see. S: But it came out in the following spring, in 1964, in the suit against L.O. Davis, the sheriff, which was one of the main, the main pieces of litigation. That styled Andrew Young v. L. (), Davis ------ _____ §: C: Right, the ambassador- S: Ambassador to the United Nations. But he was, he was an assistant of Martin J~'$ Luther King~at that time. And he, he was, he was arrested and beat up on and all sorts of things, so they, they, one of the early suits was Young v. Davis, one of the main suits. The early suits were numerous arrests for, this was about Eastertime in 1964-- C: Uh huh. Right. 2A Page 2 sjm S: Early April, I guess, or late March, 1964. C: Late March. S: Attempts to integrate eating places and motels, to a limited extent, but more, more eating places than anything else. And that's when Mrs. Peabody, the, the mother of the then governor of Massachusetts, Endicott Peabody, she wa.s amcmg the ones arrested and she'd been wrfttf:'J.1 up in her, that week, about her reasons for going down there. They, there were, oh, I don't know, a couple hundred arrests, I would guess, I don't want it to come out and be sure about it on paper. And they sought, Kuifi.stler, William Kutfustler and s,·l)'l()n,..., Tobias f:i~a:tt\"\" from Miami, they were representing these plaintiffs, they sought, they filed petitions to remove all the cases involved in these aA::1rests·, wfti'Cli were, I· guess would oeen returnable to the county (court .Jof' the county judges court. I'm not certain which. Judge Mathis, John Mathis was the judge of that court. C: Right. S: And I had hearings for two or three days and determined that the cases weren't removable under the statutes which had been stood. Apparently, Kuenstler apparently looked to ·the fact that later they, I was reversed for the remainder of those cases. But that was because they, the court of appeals applied the '64 Civil Rights Act retroactively. C: Oh right. S: @ ~--~~~~~~~-- opinion on that appeal and I had, at the time, at that time, I, my recollection is, and it's filed, you'll have to ferret it @ I out. But my recollection is that I permitted a Sl1.f)\"\" 5££2 (?) bond whileFhe, ~ \\ f I while the refusal to, while my dismissal of the case was in this court, was 2A Page 3 sjm pending and that, that held them up, you see. They didn't go back at that time. C: Right. S: And they, those cases now,they'd arrest them, they'd be, typically they'd be a mixed group, two or three white ladies and a couple of colored ladies. Now Mrs. Peabody, she had the, she had the wife of a black Episcopal bishop somewhere in New England. C: Yeah, Massachusetts. S: Massachusetts, I guess, with her, and one, I don't know, one or two other ladies, maybe another minister's wife. They, they were, they were arrested for trying to eat, for going in and sitting down in a restaurant to eat. C: Uh huh. S: I c\u0026J\u003e 0·17 And there were, that, that was more or less typical i-rt/those offenses and there was no special violence involved at that time. C: Did you handle many cases like that before the St. Augustine confrontation? S: I never had anybody try to remove a, try to remove one of those things. It C: was a new concept. I think in Kubstler' s chapter he says that I was1 At ,;vc/~.141. t!J) He spoke to me and came to my office to me before the hearing and I told' him I'd be interested to heatjvhat they had, see what they had to develop. That this was something new to me, that they could remove these, this type of case. And so, after hearing them a day or so, and hearing thei~ arguments- (What do you want, Ken? It'll keep, but thank you very much. Give the bank- ,..,-~·~ v.:_-\u003c book and stuff to Mrs. -- • Thank you, Ken). Well, I've lost the thought, I'm sorry, but-aJ You were talking to Kuenstler about the- 2A Page 4 sjm I I ' /~.;,_·; _.,.. ,.. -;'',7'.VI, hIi /11 ~7- C', / ;f•.(; 7 r 1~1,v-~.:.!: S: And the hearing. And they, they have some, they got hassled around a little bit at that time, they got shoved around in the jail and first agreed to, they had a , as I recall a, a representative of a Miami r;;; ol::\u003ending company or some out of town bonding company -!At., .f,~Jl-r _,who said they·' d take them and then the next morning kicked that, released the people, rciv . @ and then the next morning they wouldn't even - fl.c.-v $for1r/ • 'U±d 5,fflaf'\\ and Bill Ku~stler around in the office a little bit and so on. That, that's I think you've covered that once that I know about. That was covered pretty thoroughly in the testimony in that case. Then later they started, it would have oeen in late May, they, they started marching down there and marching at night. C: Right, right. S: C: S: C: S: And that, that is the basic, the~ march~ Hi 5'°'\"c \\,f\\ [( d'wi:~, - then they were told by, told by the sheriff and the chief of police and so on that they couldn't march anymore. And they, then, we had this, had this suit involving, and that was, that was joL1':5 v. Davis- Right. and the, the incident fl,v/,rJq (\\;i Robert~\" I heard testimony for several days in that case about Dr. Cleaver ~{~1 not Cleaver- Jle-.r.,l.,.1@ Robert .HaJ..e#, yeah. q /ill~ Dr. Robert Ha:-1-ay_ being beaten up and when they were bod of(« f'..I(·,, ,.,uf,,,~, trying to spy on somebody aincl appare1tdy- he and one or two other blacks ·:·· were trying to spy on c, t l?t r\u003c n1 cc J, 11n and they caught them and they rou~h 0 ' 1(1 } l\\ LU '.'-) gave them a pretty/time. And if I recollect, 1 1it doesn't appear in this couri but perhaps in the St. Augustine local state or county court, they, 2A Page 5 sjm C: S: 1L.1 they wouldn't make any CC!)C' against {iJ., ll c 111 people .. ~made J-4 some --Ct1-SC'-) --against ~against the blacks- Right. ' •, J-/.1-'i /,.111 @ That was the, well, that's when, that's how, that's how the Hale~ thing came in, that incident came in. And there, there was a, there was another thj_ng that came out during that, during r: hi's story about h±s case, sJ~rised that that hearing and Kue1\u003cstler and ' .6) I would ask £., (}. 15avis when he was on the stand about these special deputies that he had. Well,- C: I was wondering that myself. S: Well, you know, I guess time' s gone by enough . to talk about this a . little bit, but the FBI has spies everywhere and lately I've heard it said back in later years, C: S: So this was a, these, these people told me, had told me, had come and told me that, that they had information. I couldn't reveal source or talk about it, of course, but I had informa~ion from some\u003e. one or two of K.lan the older agents in the FBI office that some ~eople from Jacksonville MAtlvc.~t were messed up in with Davis and.Mi.hu.se-and everything down here in St. Augustine and,,, )said that he had, he had Klansmen, their information was that Klansmen were his special deputies. And they said that they've im­it-ported the Klan down there, they.· called ~something like the- C: Ancient City Hunting Club? S: Ancient City Hunting Club, or Gun Club or something or other, and that was what I was trying to get out of Davis and then I finally, finally 2A Page 6 sjm Davis come back the next day and bring me a list of deputies and that's /.,. M1\tlvc..'-/ when Hoss M:i:riuseJ.s name came up, for example. I told him, \"I want to know,.know about those deputies.\" And he didn't seem to know anything about them. He estimated he had twenty, or thirty or forty and I said, uMy information, you have over a hundred.·Get me a list.\" And he brought · .' a list, and it weighed like a hundred and forty or fifty, and he said those were the ones that he had deputized during the, during the Easter-time, that that wasn't all the special deputies. He didn't know how many special deputies he had, no idea. Well- C: How did one get to be a special deputy? S: Well, he, he, he testified in that proceeding that anybody that'd come in and volunteer, he'd make them a special deputy. He hadn't, he claimed not to have any list of questions. fhe. /,~.I . and so. on, and there was · ow:f' no, no control ~hem. Now remind me to talk about the, the deputy sheriff Lance matter after I get through, because that comes into this. Lance was one of those special deputies. Nothing, nothing very concrete came out of that. The1the, going back to the, well, this was in Andrew Young's proceeding that, that the special deputies matter came out. And it's very involved and I, there was another connection, there was a connection, ,J\"c.c./::3.cJ'JllJ!f! .. @ or thought to be a connection between a bunch of Klansmen, the a.e.tual a r:. .:r rec id I; bunch of Klansmen that I tried in late June and up, r wonld sall it?2July the fourth of 1964. It was either Saturday or Sunday and we had the trial going(/NC/, ,,(or,t! and the jury said they wanted to stay and work on the fourth or on Sunday or both, whatever it was, and they came in with a , they couldn't agree and I had to declare a mistrial. These people were charged ·------- ------------------------------------ 2A Page 7 sjm with dynamiting the home of, out in Lackawanna of the first one, of the only little black child that had gone to Lackawanna school, gone to the, that had happened a year or two before, two or three years before mayfie. But under the integration order, one child put in the, put in the Lackawanna Primary School, the elementary school in the fall. He was a little first grader. They, they had the women parading out there f/,~f @l 4 ./(hrt~ -~ti /v !A·,;~ ru(lr1-t. //, and they had signs up, \"Niggers '/ \" / I?;\\) , {./h·•'\"S V:.W C:·~rhafl1/:,, Q1./(,{f/; •. .:J\" \"·.'1The little six year old kid couldn't read, you 0 /ii! know, but it must have been a fi 11s/e..;v !;_·;to him, what the sign said. So I finally this group, they got together and we tried these people for dynamiting that house and we had, we had, I can't think of his name, I 1 . {ttt l! 1.1 :7( (\"(i.'.I .(;.,/, ./ rw-μ.., an experienced man from Indiana or Ohio, Kentucky, Missouri, somewhere right in that part that was a, he was an accomplished /(o'Sf.Cf'--4115 dynamiter. He, he pled guilty) {))'1\\\\io.u1 ~)fl1t\".!I,;,\"~· He pled guilty and ·-' he pled guilty, and testified in the first trial against these people. Now, after the mistrial, I tried my ·best to, I told the U.S. attorney, I said,\"I'm going to try it again.\" And he wanted to try it in the fall. I said, well, I said,\"Maybe this doesn't have anything to do with it, but you're a Democrat and that Lyndon Johnson's running here in this fall election.\" I said,\"You try this thing a month before the election, it will bring a lot of, bring a lot of racial feeling, bring a lot to the surface that might react unfavorably on the President.\" And I said, \" He's,he's a Democrat and that might interest him.\" And so they didn't try it until -{: 1ter, after the election. Finally~hef~ried it in November and the people fi;;, -....;:... .. -\"\" were acquitted. They had a , they had a ---------- dry run, and ----------------------------------------------- ···- 2A Page 8 sjm this government witness wouldn't, wouldn't testify and we, I let him use the, I let him use his prior, tes.timony at the prior trial and that was, that was one of the points on the appeal, whether, whether he could testify again or not. And then, then he brought, pushed con-viction proceedings which I decided against him and he claimed that the FBI had made him promise all kinds of things, you know to, to get his plea of guilty set aside. It turned out, he was the only one, only one that got it. These local Klan types, they, they got away, but there was there were indications that you couldn't, couldn~t ';t\"eally put your finger on at that time and it'd oe impossible to put them down in very concise order now, wi:th the time passed and my memory being what it is, But that, these people were tied in with the Sl, A1Aci1,1S}i11'.e.- hb'c.h, and old Davis, and this, I'm not clear on this in my mind, but Davis arrested, v1ere. the Florida East Coast strike was going on and there w~ome rewards out for people that were connnitting acts of sabotage against the railroad, putting dynamite all over it and blowing up the trains and so on. They had big rewards. This William whatever his name was, Davis had him and he thought he had gotten himself a, and q 11M/t/t-1 I think Mi~use was in with him, I don't know, but they thought they had captured him. The East Coast saboteur. And it was all linked in together with this Klan trial that this fellow was a witness in here in Jacksonville and I'll get, get, they were, the FBI was monitoring the Jacksonville Klan thing and that's how they got up·enough.evidence to indict these people for the dynamiting of the house out there, the parents of, the mother of this little boy, and also they, they were getting some feedback in there about\\ St. Augustine thing 2A Page 9 sjm from the same, same thing going on, see and it tied in with the, tied in with the dynamiter. Well, the, let's go back to Young, Young v. Davis. r;Q #7\u003e fbtN 1.{) :I brought another, f I Now that went on for several days lf11d brought this suit and we had, we had a hearing and I told him that, I said,\"I'll get this out as quickly as I can, but I'd like to ask for committment that you don't demonstrate during the time I have the case II on the advisement bench, it turned out to be about a week or ten days, nine or ten days, I forget, the order came out on the ninth of June. And they agreed, they went out to confer, and they agreed to that. Then \" rf~'I -/-J E ir.f,,, ft_,.n,;e. '~~· I enjoined the marchers. I, I enjoined them-first with the marchers. Davis, and Dr. Shelley was lhe t»~ Voe= l\\r'\\c\\ 1'-1\\fC- .forcw.Jlcn )~.c d\\ie\\ o\\ ~,.,l1c:,\u003c'.'s r....,_;r,(' ~-'-'-\"'----,11-..\u003et..J:;;;._-,~'---'----'.;..o..~ C: ~~~ S: Stuart Virgil, Stuart, yeah. And of course, one thing, we got hot to start bringing in these people march at night and the people in pickup '1:\u003e trucks with bicycle chains and ax J:;l..(i\u0026.J ·~nd ball bats and so on would assemble on the square and ,V, 0~ ,tln-11 @and fight them and they brought the Florida Highway Patrol down there. We had another, another bi.g hearing about that I recall . t:16Mf //1;;v t; 1tL. And I refused to t II ti to them ----------- @ C: There must have been a lot of.pressure on you then, because I think Ol I everybody was, well,Jithe whites were hoping you'd put a ban on the demon-strations. S: Yeah, yeah, right, well, then I, I got, I don't know where that file's 2A Page 10 sjm here or not, but I have stacks of you know, poisonous, poison pen mail, threats and everything else. I wonder with these people coming in and they would assemble from, they weren't all of them, they weren't all of them, many of them localj, A0,,_,d;•·' people. They'd get a couple of pickup trucks loads eorrJ\u003e ,\\,orv\\ Oc?l b , Cr\"'~''[.: ui 1 c. Pzd:'.1..+l:c·, ._:1(,rl2 or ::::::,;,: u.)\\crt\u003c: o vc\u0026 Jk{,\\ 'c( t6Y1\\J.. Q·Y~Cl ~t·~t\\_\\:d f) ('1.-/t:t,,. (fl\"C(; .,..,, '\";'t'! ·~\"',f':.1~l't•·'\" .C: I was wondering what you, you hear ~lot of St. Augustinian people say that there really wasn't a St. Augustine protest, it was people from outside. Did you have that feeling too? S: Well, it was people, it was people from outside. King, King went in there, King started it and King was, King was tickled to death to get out of there with a dog bone, really. I couldn't, all I was trying to do, the main thing I was trying to do was to get a biracial committee formed down there and let them deal with these blacks. And you couldn't get anybody that would agree. They wanted to have a secret committee they wouldn'·t, wouldn't let-1-)n/y Ari\"'' f;:, f;j And, well, Pope the senator, he came over and talked to me rcnJF-one night about what to do, and I said,\"~, you can take the lead in this thing.\" No, he couldn't do that. You'd have to have some, if you're going to lead you have to have somebody to follow you and so on, see. Well, finally, a banker there, can't remember his name­C: I'm, I'm not sure which one it was-Frank Har\"old? S: Frank Hatold was one, and then the other man, the other banker who's- C: Wolfe, was it Wolfe? S: Wolfe, yeah. And they finally got some sort of conunittee, they got some sort of a, at least a front of a committee together. And what, what saved the situation, I, I, what, you see the first thing, the first thing that people like, people like King would want, would be to make, they're making 2A Page 11 sjm a, they're making a protest and they're making a non-violent protest, I \u003cf} lJ··A1,·-{ tr.If -f}iQ, w~PIFN S but they won't al~ys wil:l-:i:ng bodies to get beat on and to make as much noise as they can; C: They get the publicity- S: They want, they want, the thing they'd want would be if you could, to say, well, the state of Florida can't have it. Get the President to send troops in or something,see, which, which would have been a, which would have been a bad mistake /N, /N, ~St. Augustine - people y I they wanted everybody to go away, and just play like it didn't h~ppen. C: Why do you think King went there? Do you have any-? S: Well, I'll tell you why. Because I think what triggered it was the /lay_/ '\"f f(_y Civil Rights Commission in, I'm not sure but what they included that ~ incident in their report, but theys they, their report that they filed in the fall of 1963, it said St. Augustine was a tinderbox and so on, and that it had to, something had to give, and thaS ~hat people weren't, blacks weren't getting a claimed to be the fair shake and that it was a terrible thing, for what c: (1tf IN flflle.,r'/c1-.- ® oldestA.permanent white settlement or whatever they called it. And I think that's what called it to, to these outsiders' attention. It was HosrA Williams and King and Young, they had four or five others of these black non-violent, you know, students, southern- C: Southern Christian Leadership Conference. S: Yeah, the slicks and the snakes. They had another one Southern Non-Violent which are snakes, I think, I don't know, they had a nickname for all of them. But, that's what brought it on. The, the situation as far as the Civil Rights Act was in '64, was passed and signed, right about the first 2A Page 12 sjm C: S: of July and that's right when things came to a head. I had issued a 5-~0 tJ Cill/Stt ~ order against the government for- Banning the marchers? I ,-;_) flt he.~ k b\u003eI 1srn£J b~~~i~~' the marchers. I thought that there had to be -- Mvo'fl/(fr we1Jlten days ahead lo slow n'''~F @on a certain date, why, it should be held in contempt. I thought maybe things would settle down a little then. Couldn't have a , you know people say,government ignores +de.,\"{ 14-ttle court orders and.so on like that. Vot.. eol /o -le.Irr. 5:'01»F ~ u ~ /JJF//ft'.~D· ON ffi.;;_,~,c, n.l. t/ir.t, Or yoiA. i~lS 1 /c.co .... Q'\" a ~ql;:.I' !~;?'\" re4/ f41 cf,jCYJkN0t;1, C: Are you and Bryan~ weren't you and Bryant-fairly good friends at that time, or is that? S: We had been friends, yeah, he pad, he practiced law in.Ocala and I, when T came on the district bench in 1950, I used to go twice a year, and hold court down in Ocala for two or three weeks, whatever it is. They have a courtroom, courtroom down there and we had an Ocala docket and I'd go down and meet all those Ocala lawyers pretty well,and Bryant was a Rotarian~a ~ itlfWluo\\ Rotary Club down there, Ci11d J'd 5U'Orn121fKdN~, we, we LA)Crc -fr1cn~l(,.I· (pi; ~.~~~~~- __,, He, he had one of his close friends here in Jacksonville during that week or ten days we're talking about call me and ask me could he, he and I talk unofficially, and I said, \"Come on over, I'll meet you at 'Your friend's house.\" And we had a meeting one night about two hours, trying to figure out where, where we were going, where we were getting to. We, we were not, we thought differently, but we were not unfriendly, in a personal sense •• , C: Uh huh, sure. 2A Page 13 sjm S: ••• at all, see, and I was trying to help them, I was trying to help them figure them, figure things out. One way is to, to get passed off with the-well, the thing they were, the thing they were protesting about getting into, getting into motels and restaurants and everything was covered by the Civil Rights Act. So now the next, the next thing was, they started trying .to integrate those motels and restaurants with the force of law oehind them with Title Two of the Civil Rights Act to back them up. And so we had a bunch of those cases. C: I wonder if I could back up just a second. S: Yeah, yeah. C: Do you think what King was concerned, do you think it,· he was trying to use St. Augustine to get the Civil Rights Act passed? Did you sense arty of that with Young? S: I don't- C: Was trying to pressure S: I, I don't know that King thought that way. C: Uh huh. S: King was, King was a, he was a terrific inspirational leader, you know, and he, I can hear him now. \"I have a, I have a dream,\" you know, there, when /?:/1 the, at the Washington Monument -~1{.·t hat peri. od. He, he was, he was a .terrific inspirational leader, but I don't think he was much of a thinker and a, and a planner and I, I would question whether he, but that may have, that's certainly ~ possiblity. Now I wouldn't like to think that he was simply going all over and trying to stir up as much interest and concern for the plight of the blacks as he could. I, I, maybe they, course he was, ------------ --- ' --- 2A Page 14 sjm course I'm sure he examined the passage of the Civil Rights Act. I, I don't know, he probably testified up there. I don't know that, I don't think they would call him in, but you know there was a good deal of testifying, testi-mony about people say, this, talking about Title Two testimony, people say well, the department of black, Department of Justice lawyer- -Break- C: Yeah, I was going to ask you , one of the other questions I was going to ask you. You, were sharply critical of Davis for the conditions in his jai1.. Now I wonder if you might, how, how did you know that conditions were that bad then? S: There was a suit, when that was, I tell you, there was a suit, and I'll try to think of the name of it. It's one of these cases, when, after the first of July, when, when they, when they started making these steps to integrate the various restaurants, and getting, those people getting arrested, again, you see, they1 f/.rsr NrRE , these were locals. I suppose they were being di-rected from outside, but going in and try to, go and sit down and-I'll tell (:\"\"\u003e, I . / . ~ ,.1. ,,Mf rvcN. · you one of those instances - _/,·r1r. ,/ or /iJc/rr/ .;... -r/.t hr'J-11:·;\u003c·1 :And, as I recall, there was also some marching and demonstrating about this same time, and when this, these, these problems brought on a , they brought on a lot of, a number of arrests and they, I'm not sure which and I couldn't tell from the testimony whef~ff~e£:~-af@, the jail set bonds or whether he had a direction from Matthews the judge to set bond, whereas the people that were, outside people that were demonstrating and trying to, trying to integrate, trying to integrate restaurants and motels- C: Uh huh, right. 2A Page@ sjm S: We were setting bond a hundred and fifty, two hundred, three hundred C: S: C: S: C: S: dollars then. That was a cinch for them. Now these local people, they get done arresting them in, in July there, so they were setting bonds at three thousand, thirty-five hundred. Good heavens. Out of sight f.or these people. Well- They brought a suit that, that they claimed that the excessive bail; t1NOke Iii£ (DJ . //mrr:c/r .. wt- wif/..excessive 'Dail, and also cruel and unusual punishment under the Eighth Amendment by the way they were treated in the jail. And that's when I criticized· the jail conditions in the, in tlie order in that, in that case, in which r~ Were they that bad, just out of curio;sity? They were pretty bad. They, they had a, everybody was, blacks and whites, males 01.M,idt They'd keep themVthere in the ball and say that was {f)_ They sent them he had a, he had a compound where [Ji and females - '1-.rl,./la./fi.ad to stay. chain in July all day, and they'd to court so they'd let them have exercise, they'd stay out there if it was hot, they'd stay out there if a thunderstorm crune or whatever. And then you had them packed in like sar-dines in some places at night and that sort of thing. C: I see. S: That was the, that w~ the basis a{ {~(i-..@I, let me, I think •••• •- -'-___I f .1111 \u003c;/1;:' 1P J ,,.,,~,..' . J'l~1•1L \"f b-'· +h.f f\"~.pf~.,.,t:r /\\Brock. Now Brock was the, Brock was the - C: Here's, here's a reference to it-o S: Brock was the man that ran the M,tl.nson Motor Lodge. 2A Page 16 sjm C: Right. S: And he was the one that was pictured throwing acid in the pool colored people jumpi11g·in the pool and him running around to throw acid in it, and so forth. I, now this may be, ~in4v. Matthews may be the, the- -V-C: It says here in, in Freedman's book, that you, that there were two cases two suits referred to you and it said that in the, in the second opinion, you described the, the high bail:requirements and then you also described the conditions in the jail. S: Yeah, well now, does that, does that have a footnote citation or anything to- C: It doesn't have any,. I don't see any reference- S: Any reference to the name of the case, well, it's one of these. C: Reference to the case. Somehow the Plummer case rings a bell, but I wouldn't swear to that one. S: Plummer, it might be Plummer. She was a, she was one of the local protesters, and it may have been, that may have beenfoven brought in her name. Well I think it may have been, I know that Vance, the sheriff- Here's, here the, the 11/l contempt scene against Vance came up\\/the Plummer case,'cause here's, here's Q~/@ 18 the, here that material is, the .f.e1H; findings and the addition -In /;M fact. That went on, that went Supreme Court somewhere, about my right to turn, turn in his badge fv,,. 0,,/at,7 \u0026 C: Uh huh. That's where Strom Thurmond denounced what you did on the floor of the Senate. S: Yeah,I think, yeah it was in- C: 'Cause the court upheld you, didn't it? 2A Page 17 sjm S: Well, yeah. My, my court upheld me, the fifth scdor upheld me, and then the, then the, the Supreme Court and I'm, I'm not certain whether they heard it on the merits and upheld me, or, or whether they denied a petition for certain, and that's the way it- but anyway my good friend, Justice Black -.hi\u003c,~ rY . -k\u003c!l\"1(l~ y (' ct ·~a biting, sharp dissent about em:rtYt.o..ok-ht'lif over the, usurp1~~ was of functions of state and everything, well, this fellow Lance ~) wtt\u003eI' \\..j.· p....rd one of these vdt,.01ker ci.i.evltS He wo11 ld.a.!..V°~d that's all in that stuff there. -K-im-b-al-l -- was one of f.eli7 ef thri.ocal (nurse or she worked the people, I think, one of in some /rl4Ybt- ~ or in some I clerical capacity, I don't know, she ••• This Plummer, Plummer against Brock was the suit where they compla\\i.ed about the, the refusal to serve, see. C: Uh huh. S: A number of places, we took testimony about him and- C: Right. S: They, the testimony all was that, we _-_. ___ __,f.~h'-'\"\"~~-r~1 because the, the Ancient City Hunting Club and Gun Club when the M~sy people were running around threatening ..vl...t vr:, $(..(.,, • I think what it amounted to, ·the result was an injunction enjoining them to serve and enjoining these other people from interfering with- C: Right. S: People who wanted to be served. C: That was after the passage of the Civil Rights Act, wasn't it? S: That's, that's right, that's right, that's right and that's what the Plununer case basically was. 2A Page 18 sjm C: Uh huh. S: And then Vance, there was some, some white person, some white man from outside and I don't know what his, whether he was a preacher, lawyer, r;,_,,,, otfr1.~t'f:. K somebody came in down there and this colored man named ~-bm:k; I know they call him Thunderbird- C: Uh huh. S: The colored people, they'd call him Thunderbird, I found out his name. He met the man and·he drove him to this eating place, the Chews, run by same people called the Chews. C: Chews, right, Chew' s Restaurant. S: Well, they had a different name then, I believe. But anyhow, he, he followed them and chased them all around, all up and down back streets, and finally, he, he said something to him while he was there, and then when he left, he followed them. Well, it wasn't any, there wasn't any reason for this volunteer deputy to be doing that for any reason except ~r~ to intimidate Thunderb~ and that was the basis for telling him that he'd have to turn in his badge 1and he probably violated a Civil Rights That's Plummer, that's, there's got to be, King v. Mathis, maybe this is the one. I'm trying to find the one where what you asked about, where they, where the jail con-ditions- C: Right. S: Things get away from me. I thought I never would forget any of this. It C\u003eV\\ wentAfor the,the ••• this was not setting bond, I guess. King v. Mathis. C: That wasn' t, wasn' t the Young v. Davis, was it? 2A Page 19 sjm S: Young v. Davis, the original Young v. Davis was the, and here's that \"I! I file, was the, was the J-,-w_1_n_1·_r._e._.',c.._.c_c_.( -~--o-\"-{:-·o:..._.-;:,_;: :_·' -'\"'_c_I~ ··,_n,.,tt_-__ (j C: Right. S: Now, it may have, I don't think, I think they would have filed another Crn.rrJ e. II suit. Here's one hotel, Williams 0-5011\u003cs1 £..::...,:i.c-ft , I don't know what that is. That, that's just a aflooj!'f_ ;f;,sf(7)¥ewis Con\"'ell, proprietor, ii . and individual doing business by the name of Santa Maria Restaurants, so that's just M11n0Jhor DllC o)'.Hic integrating. There were, there may be a, +~v f l1't: ci ,... (!i}) there were maybe a dozen separate ones of those cases, p.r-Gbab±-y fifteen JI . I • I ' /I 1/ I lj or more in which similar orders went out, ./-/.,\"-1 ~ i.Jt,Af c,(( lr11;{.1 nr,,,4, welt+ J,.. M-1 [Jf1i•N? , io rot\u003eic a I flio•e- Cflf(J- \u003eon?r:1 .. 1'ii.'N!:, - hnu: s-omcwhutr .@ vf:Rj fa'j • • • f haf s ,'w ,,-rfo-r-rv c- _... somewhsx:.e. C: You know, it really seems in looking at the events that went on, that,J.1\\f\\1 you really kept the lid on events there that if, if they, if it hadn't been- S: Well, somebody else, I, I don't know, another judge might, might have just said, well this is, all this mess, and swept it under the rug. I, I didn't feel; my conscience wouldn't let me do that. But ~ou kno'.A), h1;,.,\\fo- ::(.O,;~cl 1;,!(S u.ou Cid c1 La•r L.1J:,c h•\\ you don't want, you wish you never picked i:-t' up, but ') © you.can't let go. This was a~======:___ C: Davis had no restraint on h:im from, 'cause Shelley was pretty much agreed with what he was, mayor- S: Yeah, well, Shelley was the mayor and, and Davis was of course a different chain of command, but they were all working together. C: Right. 1/rr\u003c.\u003c;)i I S: Grego~y Stewart was the- 2A Page 20 sjm C: Was the police chief, yeah. S: Was the police chief, but, we had, there was a lot of dealing with, two or three hearings on, where the highway patrol people had come in: and they had them in there. They had a bunch of them, the governor did, ~f1/~11:J1\"d~i,.ror-clrJf!iJa\"'{they~~~:_r{.n' t maintain the, couldn't maintain ® order, 1-/rU'J fo · ' \"·\"' · · · an injunction against banning marches after tlli's, J:'~ t!F.clar:, , I just can't, can '·t put my finger on what I'm looking for. I know that it's· here. C: That was, when they came up to, and questioned you atrout thei'l'.' aO-i;I.ityto control events the'l:'e, wasn't that when you saitl tlla,t tll'ey ouglit to start arresting some of those other people instead of..,.. .and the two most, the one aoout the marching and the other one and this one about the, the economic violations by the~ C: Yeah, here's the reference to the 90 degree temperatures and . the storm and the fact that he kept them in the compound during these times. S: - /le, hE/j h1rrr /-,;r • I don't remember whether it was a man or a woman 11 1 I .;hf 1 CqVfJ,'I; fir Jzer/ ·ll; .• j') ilV e:• ,,p/uu: tJif.FJAsit down. They had one cripple in there, too. ii C: One polio victim, right, on crutches. S: Was that a woman or a man? C: Yeah, it was a woman. And then you have the reference to the sweatboxCS. 2A Page 21 sjm S: Well, that, that's the one there5' that's al()1tf f/ie, El~Jdh cu'\u003e1rf'J0\"1{JV/.rtfJ C: Right. S: thing of sort. You know, you get mad as the dickens when you come along the street and somebody's run the windows up and left, left a little old dog in the hot sun- C: Right. S: . 'And then you think about human ·beings and I think I said in there . .(/,~.( ./6, ·s i\u0026l{,.,c, ~.A lvrt1t•a CttVr! V11.:sf;.,? /.-r. 6 s I v v f.; 'but these weren't, these weren't {orc(11U: rs or even people from other states, they were -------- ------ hometown. 11\\i•J\\~, H_f CY\\_(. And there was then, they'd be_ lV\\ Jk~ fuff\\',Cd\\('I 0-::pl;.,\\S\\.-, -T':lw::.;., f:,rccl IS 1.PhC1c .\\:.{ ·~~vtv'c.\\iun L»o-:. \"' ,,\n.rd. -::L cd,.cl l.C•v\\CC -ror Z1. V\\c\\ - C: Right. S: And had a hearing on, on that, because, he wasn't, of course he wasn't -r .... f//e. ''1rt/c · tfli ~ + C: S: 1 -/h £17F on this, he wasn t defendable and waen II I' t?d .1. M\"'·\"'' nNV rff;lM'ttr/e- or er, - vo re.sine... f T , • tlv ro.v1ElJ-r· '.// t ·ll)rrc people, but he was, I said he was in, acting as-e-OURSelor.\\hne f,,;:::,,., ;, I t(_J} cf. I. ·.,ow .,,,.l'\u003c.~ ' f ({1 • ~ .. ,,, t:t\"' \"5..v£ /,;..., 6 ~ ·That was one of the points in the appeal, whether or not he was, whether or not you could punish him for contempt when he, when he was \u0026 I. 1i1\u003e1ci'\u003eJ,.,.e ,.rf _.,,... (.;.11,, ,_ '1 think JJr.r 1~ .. ~·~~- c Ci f~ (Alf\"J{l 5li /.1. ~he opinion of/:,r;11:r:d /Hr. Lance and as I say, I c.01,,td ~oo\\c I{ can't, I can't recall when the_, when the, whether J~.__.c_ S:up.-c.\\\")'1..£. ~~ the\u003e t;; on-ftrtl'J or ,),r/lu1 I crt\u003c'l\" i! . fAt:t of:,,w black filed the strongest sentences in (J:•r e...t\"rc11tl I Yeah, I've read it, I can't remember either, to be honest with you. J A I .(,/ C:r·n Tlr i\\ procedure ;n;. \\f ··1 f , r11 '-' l _ 2A Page 22 sjm C: S: Right. And it's some of these things, somewhere. ,w• -/r'a c·tI \u003cl.j::;.:,- Now, for some reason, an~I don't know why, there's a, and these are all filed, but, there are a bunch of, I don't know why I had these Xerox copies, and these are simply Xerox copies of the Supreme Court slips. And I suppose they're all the different-1964, about that time. against Maryland, Bowie against the City of Columoia. Several copies of the same thing. Whatever, they're, they're, if they, if nooody wants them, throw- them away, because they're, they're in the books now anyway. C: Uh huh. I'm sure they'll be glad to have those. S: Well, they, they, if they don't want them, they can throw them away then, they're not much value to anybody, they're just, but they were, I wanted 6'l IJNclfhts· l1:/s ~Er /d/,1,( r::.'_J f./A:\"1r: them at the time for some purpose that I can't even recall.A I had a huge @' /,{ / ' I/'~( \\.J.fr or ~of') y' file of them.a1rt!/1 ,.,,4 /,.// n,,/ fr/Irv what they re going to do to you. I C: Uh huh. S: That's my first wife, she's dead now, but she knew how to handle them. ,1 /21\"-Y S't\\I. She'd say, \"Yes, thank you, so nice to call,\" and,~ I~' tt\"May have your name and who's calling?'' And then say, \"We appreciate having your views\", or something like this. I told her just be polite, e;J ,;{r f'fi,\" lui /! p,,,., •. they'd hang the phone up, they'd get so mad at her for- C: Being nice. S: Being nice to them. They told me that, this is an aside. During this time, when they, I guess it was when the.people were coming in from outside. I had a friend in Ocala who called me up one night. He ran a big truck stop and had waitresses there, and one of his waitresses was married to L __ 2A Page 23 sjm C: S: @ somebody ------------- right next to him said, \"You better :r :Si1l~J watch out, those people are going to try to kill you.'·' A \"Can you tell me 61 who they are?\" He said, No.\"J,,5e;a;dm .. il.o\u0026f;q~i \"I don't know what to do.\" I ' \" fJ:) ' (JNJJNi said, \"I guess t-~.s4 acf,,.,\u003c~ v,, .. c .. .J r/ill. 0 · The FBI came to ilee me. They had some communicated threats from up in Georgia. and Montana. ________________(! !;_}_~· They had the names of these people. I said,\"Well, can you give me a picture of them? They got an arrest record, can tell me.\" fforrl ovtl?, I had some doubts about it· r.llfr ic.; · /fo.;~~1·~; · · ~(,fr'· · ·hJo or fArf!O- - (1.irt(J /,;/lrc1 ;'.;'c;r S'\"''\"\"'i\"(i. Uh huh, right. -------------- fii;;i .. ..__ ....... several repeating rifles , and a couple of shotguns, I said,\"You want me to put one at each window loaded and then if I hear anything go to that window and shoot, or what do you think I ought to do?\" _Cl£11 , \"Use your c: Si..rC, own judgement.\" Aside from, it's a little hard on your family/\\ this sort of thing is hard on your family. /1)0 .fl1'N£ EvFf? · @ · . I never (I will understand why they want to kill the judge, anyhow. · · · ~------- @ ---------------~·There's some newspaper things here, too, now I'm going to stop talking and let you ask me questions. rc\".Cllii1. C: I just wanted to ask you about,Vy~u answered most of what I wanted to ask you, I just wanted to ask about Kue!h.stler and Simon. What, what sort of lawyers were they? How did you find them? Both of them are very activist lawyers 2A Page 24 sjm today. I was wondering how they were back then. S: Yeah, well, I'll tell you, Kuenstler was the soul of i.Jlticz.-\\ conduct :Mb'L @ in the courtroom, very professional. So was ~ Simon, all through C: S: this and somewhere along the line, I think Kue%:stler changed, between this time and the time that he took part in the Chicago Seven trial and some of the Rap Brown business and all of that, I, I think that the symptoms changed constantly. He, he got into this thing, as he ~ells in his book ,+ there, that he got into it pretty much by, started intoAby accident, and got interested and kept on going. And at that time, he was, he was, I think a different person, now, I, I say this Because ·we have a, how long · have you been at the university? Five years. \\\"i\\CI'.) b:! it;\\• This may have been a little before then, butA~here was a, some trouble in (11'C\\ 9\\r\u003c';'.I Gainesville,f, I think it was the wife of a professor down there, and she and the, encouraging some activity on the part of black people. I, it's, it's kind of out of my mind and I didn't sit on it, there was an appeal and I suppose that it was, I don It know whether it was' was ::J;,,/,p Crir51,,.rf/ lJ Ao ttJ.,S ml/ @; 1'\u003e1~Y J -- // (:,· or after Arno, after Arno was on there or when maybe it W\u0026S MIJE: brrrJ Ir::-\u003e; IJ1iar/r\u0026,,/ ,~ \u0026 I just don't ·remember. \"'iThey had an appeal ·:fa.AF or0urd hEtff i·t was with . . . , - . '• ' 0 ' ..... ' .... ~ . I a panel of 011\" co~rt. -1/)fi Co.,{ cff{1'l1'''\u003eby then ~~lrthe Court of: Appeals. They· had ...:._ _ .::::=::::=::::==========-@-= -------5/i:/ir;-. s:tt 'he-Pe in Jacksonville in . ~~;:01 this Gainesville case __-_ -.::.::_-.::.::_-_- \"_~ This i'S something I couldn' t imagine Bill Kuenstler doing in the time that I had all these contacts with him over that five or six months. He had, here again, the FBI came and told me they didn't know who to, who to tell. I wasn't going to sit on the 2A Page 25 sjm panel, but I was a li'~t 1.\u003c.1'f resident ~ judge and there was three judges @ coming in from outside and so -------- told me. They hadn't had somebody for a little meeting that they had in Gainesville with these these appellants, the people who appealed the case. They'd been, whatever, whatever rights they were trying to enforce fA~//iifYThey'd been turned J-down by the district judge and they were appealing and they told me that Ku~stler had, had appeared at the meeting two days befo~e of the group in Gainesville. I can't rememoer what it was all about now. And he told them, he said, \"I want you to come to J·acksonvi'lle · -111~1/ ·a 5t;u// ' I ti v,,~ ttrtI '''/lt»' , ru ' JI J· / (1P ON{ I t•'r // - H.e sa1\"·d' 1.~Mak· e S\"v \"me no 1··se. II v Well, the iuea of an ethical_lawyer wanting to try to intimidate or influence a court that way, that, that was shocking to me/.Jr1/fI) JJttf§r ./Jr I(.,,,/,.\"/ /; /'./Olv ../--'1t; //flcmv{'y Griffin Bell was on the panel and I told Griffin about it, and I said, \"Griffin, I'll tell the marshal to have some extra men in the hallway and I'll tell the FBI to have some extra people, we'll have a few people in the courtroom and tell the marshal when, when the seats in the, it's a real small courtroom q,r ;r ,,,._,1,-e r.f.;.,t ~ when the seats are in there filled, not to let anybody else in _..::::::::==:=:=:=:=:::::::~re;J.,=~ny other sug-gestions, let me know. But the information is that they're going t~come //'I _•t .I ./ U\u003e· I ii l. CC!••, rO •..., ~'-\" in and try to raise a disturbance and rrrc.{,• \"' ,·/ i /~,/:Mr around the court- ® house and so ----,,- ---- said, \"No, ,So, , ~' 'If you I don't think anything e!\"::e. hear anything~ why call else ----- me,\"·and this was Thursday or Friday before they were to start the session on Monday and Tuesday, Monday or Tuesday of the following week (I;;:/ they did. They (,iJ came in (t!lf;t1 !/....,, There was I.Jo! and it was one other 2A Page 26 sjm regular judge, it was old judge Phillips, R.A. Phillips who was former chief judge of the tenth circuit. He was up in his eighties, he lived down at Lakeland and retired, you know, and he'd sit about, would have court about once a year, cl @) -------~-·-~ :f C1: Jv (•Nr.dc/ CCWPf' t11) I u Jcafso1\u003euil/c _, ' :E-i\u003er a year or two before he died. And he was there, · :r Yt!'l·~1Efn6ra G,-,·({.r, J 0! ,1~q·: . .. ; lh t\"~{ (f_,\"i) fra .... 3 f'.[ ato, . ../ (u',l.i pi,;IJ.-,1.1 \u003c'\"''i - Ari ervrr J1l,1 ' 'What, what re you, what' re u , ; you going to do , ,r( 1,;f,r·f ,,irl\" J 1 'v !':'~; ~'c, · \"\"\" ./ /)/I , h //,;.~ \u0026 6 ~ --\"-~,,~{~~~~-===========~under control, see~------~~~~~~~· But that, that to me is a, that to me is a-· C: Yeah. S: Is an indication of a, of a change in a man~ ov.f/ook · · , and he, he, he got so, he was no longer, he, he was no longer disinterested attorney re-presenting a client, but he was part of the movement h:im,self and acted, acted like he maybe wished he was black or something, you know, so he could protest and all that. He, he'd take on a coloration of Rap Brown or Stokely Carmichael or somebody- C: Uh huh, right. S: Rather than be, hold himself aloof from it. And he showed some of that in the, in that- C: Chicago Trial. S: Chicago Trial, yeah. C: Did, did this fellow Earl Johnson come before your court in any of these cases at St. Augustine? S: Peripherally, peripherally and I, I'm sure, I was a witness in one or two of them, and we had, we had some matters involving an instance of, they I I L 2A Page 27 sjm C: S: J,,h · ~ c,or.i1.J\"\" they would, this .fr/:~~ •. /;lci/l:,,, l' 'kind-bf judge, he'd. try to hassle these \u003e out-of-state, out-of,state lawyers. You know, he'd make a practice of:-1';..J Florida, t wru/./ /,_s-lr1 i /o yr1.1,)rr And they, they would __.A...·. 1~0-1~1.r:_._r~::~·c~I_@ I I see. some of my friends who were in a l'J1rr /;MJ - Florida Bar at that time, v that if, if, the day that c·/ J.,{r(r. /flt,;,1rj2~ . -GatyJ. t/zr '//;fh Or I .;.)..' \"'O'-..J_J,..___--_-_-:_-:_-::.==--~..,... \"\"'o'--i\"\"\"'~\"--.(1-_._fV\"'\"..o. .m \"'----®-r_Jacksonville . to Tampa· t-,u11lcl volunteer their services, come in and help the people that needed help in the court h.. JF.1p~1r: :., .dac: c110~1~ •• with things that these out.,..of..-state lawyers ~ ,_ I· was· ;;f~,:f.b'ij ~ enforcing the:i;r rules about, you know-, any· i;rules about you can't appeal because you're not a member of, member ·of the Florida Bar or some .... thing. But I said, \" (),.,/,, if you don't, 1 111 have, I'm going let, I) let them in the cases, __ e There, there was a, that summer of '64 and maybe the next year, too, they had,they had two or three organi-zations,_ __l_ a_wy_._e_r_s __ for constitutional, something LC, I don't know, they had initials, and, and there was a fellow named Arnstein that was here for two or three weeks and ~g.rnstein ended up the permanent man tlf/C\"I? llV ) · ( (PVJ). • • • f~ h h d f LC 11 otusi'uNC\\ \"\"\" 'M1ss1ss1pp1 or t e same, ea o , 111t: Lawyer' s Con-stitutional, now I don't know what the rest of it was, and then there was another organizationaA/11/r/;,~,;n«'rc/ Melvin Wolf, if I recall Ji)..O-l·fi (,Jty//:· from New Jersey or Manhattan and New York and Washington -----------·- They, they would come.in relays, they, see this, this, these guys would give their vacation time, they'd take their 2A Page 28 sjm vacation time and come down here and, and pay their own expenses and try to handle these cases for these, these people that were protesting and acting out their protest by trying to integrate +Ji,·;.\u0026( ·' 4tvrlt:o .And they, well, - C: I'm just, I'm just curious as to why, I mean there was, there were a S: lot of judges hearing cases in the South at this particular time, but why, what was it about your background or your education or whatever, that made you render the decision that you did, that, that, that pro-tected the rights of the demonstrators, whereas so many other judges were finding against them. I, I don 1 t know, I canr t answer, except to say that, th· atT·c.4~£ ·tz c, 1,o ctl Io '•'8 tt.l:t,. .I Ji my concept of,I mean the first case with any racial overtones that I C\"'r.l Y'fh1r.1,iI, riJ b~t :i1~\\' nteres t e d , I was __,C_1...:..r \"\"'C~1.A.. ..1. _I. _\"r'--.-.u...\"r \"''' --\"I· .......'. .. _ and thi. s was· pre- Brown, it was back at the time of the Virginia case where they said they had to let blacks ride on the I .,t •' But they had, they made a police case on the black .f..-wfrc? ~l''\"the railroad s ta tio n he re in Jacksonville --'-r-'-·i-'_,.1.1~·.,,.f\"\"~' ~~~_../ \u003c..:..' __;•::..;.~·-'-, ,_{_-\"4,._1;....;1·{ ,'--'./ ,\"\"\", --\"'.,J~/,..:..,: /;..;·, -..._. _.lj....._.). . ,\"\"'''\"'\"1' .._r.._.tJ'--------~- 1 \\ And I don' t know if ;./- cv~r appealed T?tre./tn d . ../:'. ~h a. tever O· r/t/ __-- .L./1 I1 f I/ f'\"{\",l f'''' . ,.-;.I · L1·1/r 1,· , \".·· ··. ,• /•, ( t7-/,;.1 ,J1u 11. ,1. c; • v p @'' fnrl J;/,Nfat or another black lawyer, at that time ;~; r /.C Per. : II l/r~i { o/~•,r;;•f from the police court from the municipal court throug1},the /.-\"':,_/ to the circuit court. And ---====:::..-~~'--JIU~~/.6.~~€~.___:===:=::=::::::::::::::=::=:=:==:=:::__~ 7 / I think they fined, fined the man or fined the two of them fifty apiece for fining someBody a hundred dollars. And they had paid it and then tried to take it to court. ( And t/tEJ ON I-hr /l/fl,'i!J I suggested 2A Page 29 sjm C: S: to the - tJ! -1-Af\u003cfjlv, fnrge tNs c?N oor.\u003e/v,J/ o/y ,,zmv#7 had A I , / //lfilkd 0/11£ of #r k.:.-vct1s,J:hought about this, but it seems to me that, I've r T\\ got a grave question about whether I can hear, hear this, because it seems to me that they're attempting to ~?+$¥1~,~~·'H.__L~~~~ -I.fir: y wF/lE 5ftJ~FiJfcfur or five hundred dollars, they /'mJt? £1EC\u003c',/,Ar. \u003cCr-·ifEA!CE5(!) ' ; there, what is there to appeal?\" paid the fine, what is . /t'lir !Mi And I sai• d, 11 I . /· zi n,,•,. .~ ;;,nI ,. ., :J,1•... J,, , p~in.i on @ t?b(lul ,J/f1~ t1r..1ll{?TYou'll come back a month later or two, sometime after z; 1 unc h and gi· ve meo,, t~:ltJP ffU.s0 1.1 ':f\"r/.; r ,..i4i ,1. \" S o t h ey· came b· ac k and t h ey ~ --~--~~~~~~~--~--~~~~~~---~ something's already done, you know, like a man that's electrocuted and wanted to appeal, what, what, what's he got. Right. to.(~~('£ 'vr Iii · @ So, I, Icu11901/1d/t that s bt:/fllg rf::'/,'r:vFD that I, not having to, not having to stick my neck out- C: Right. S: I'm only a circuit judge and, and I was appointed a circuit bench in 1946 and had to run again in '48, I don't know whether it was before or after elections, I had to run. He, he just, it was right about along that time /' II L {./J•f @ (.JcL.,£E.·-1-;-=====:__I.f7:'£.F\"J.l~f'.:...,lfZU.r££ftl,7Wl~!QO£.!fl\u0026'.J:......:.P..:.::..C1~\"- you know. · effect on me, and that's the, that's the attitude of elected officials. I've had, I've had school officials, elected school board members come and tell me,\"You've got to, f d ;+· . We've got to have somebody to blame.\" C: Right, right. S: /Je r;d ·fo eyo telling people next election that damn son of a bitch (I (! down there in the Federal Court made, made us do it. We didn't want, we 2A Page 30 sjm to mix your children with those blacks, but here we are\", see. And that, ©· t h· at ' s sort o f , an d 1' t ' s sort o f a ;I, 1,gt.z.- {qir[ atti't u d e, i' t' s t h e way, customs @rd · ®.:alk to older people and say, \"W~ll, these people outside they don't understand what we know about them down here in the South,\" and all that kind of thing. C: Uh huh. S: And, and we gradually wake up tf 5 VtJtf ao 7 0 fl/rt o.afi .lf,11-I i'/1;1Jd z; @ Now I think, .. A-f/;······d,·J/·/ _/ 7 v;:;i.. cro111 fJL?\"/ air ,.:1.1/ .,.~ c;/ y~\"'\" w,./t1.,5lo..,!0'-there 's not much,), not much doubt about what the Supreme Court means when of ow cc/.lsM .. -1.'lt~ t11..J .fir /Jw.t or r?li'F 41,.,y,e( ;t.;4_r, they write a case like Brown, and some of the other rcici(j/ cases. That you're going to, if you don't There used to be, there was a ~hC Atlanta Constitution- C: S: Uh huh. In the late nineties or eatly 1900's. Well, his son, John Graves, second -',';) /'.t ~-:\"~:\"{ ((j·· ____ .._;:;_;;;_,.-_---_=-.-.-,-- ---second ---·-----·~·-- • 'But he was editor of Jacksonville r,' .T ') ~} for quite a few years_ _~ ~-=-~-'-'ffi~~~E,~bJ~·~/,~,~J1tL'---------·He had moved to a 0£ 'ioVf\" 0 paper by the time this happened. I knew him (,c\u003e'?\u003c well ---\"--------------------~h~'~r'.~hw'fp·---1(;.;~J.acksonville,. John would say to me, §' ______ __,--....,--··--- he said, he said he didn't mind people -----'-----------------------------~ /,.,]1 so /1.·u;v fqe-IJm~1 ..f..'t)n V/ running to meet him. C: Well, thank you. I appreciate it","Ku Klux Klan -- Ancient City Hunting Club -- Ancient City Gun Club -- Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC) -- St. Augustine City Jail -- Monson Motor Lodge -- Andrew Young vs. L.O. Davis, et al. -- Arrest of Mary Peabody -- Integration of Monson Pool -- Civil Rights Act of 1964 -- Klan Rally -- Florida Spring Project of the SCM and SCLC"],"dc_format":["application/pdf"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":null,"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/CNE/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":null,"dcterms_subject":["Civil rights--United States--Florida"],"dcterms_title":["Bryan Simpson : Transcribed Interview"],"dcterms_type":["Text"],"dcterms_provenance":["Proctor Library"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://civilrights.flagler.edu/cdm/ref/collection/p15415coll1/id/1039"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":null,"dlg_local_right":["Flagler College is not the copyright owner for this item, nor can the College provide a copy of this item. 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