{"response":{"docs":[{"id":"kylouu_afamoh_oh692","title":"Oral history interview with James Shively","collection_id":"kylouu_afamoh","collection_title":"African American Oral History Collection","dcterms_contributor":null,"dcterms_spatial":["United States, Kentucky, Jefferson County, Louisville, 38.25424, -85.75941"],"dcterms_creator":["Shively, James, 1922-","Cox, Dwayne, 1950-"],"dc_date":["1978-12-18"],"dcterms_description":["Oral history interview conducted with James Shively on December 18, 1978 by Dwayne Cox. Mr. Shively focuses largely on his education in Louisville, at Louisville Central High School and the Louisville Municipal College, in the 1930s and 1940s. He discusses his extracurricular experiences as well as the more academic aspects of both of these institutions. He also describes his experiences during World War II, when he served in a segregated signal corps unit in Italy. Mr. Shively finished college on the G.I. Bill following the war, and he talks about the difficulty of finding a job once he completed his education, due to discrimination on the basis of race.","The Civil Rights Digital Library received support from a National Leadership Grant for Libraries awarded to the University of Georgia by the Institute of Museum and Library Services for the aggregation and enhancement of partner metadata."],"dc_format":null,"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":["Audiocassette tapes number 692 and 693, African American Oral History Collection, Oral History Center, University of Louisville Archives and Records Center."],"dc_relation":["Forms part of online collection: African American Community Interviews, Oral History Center, University of Louisville Archives and Records Center"],"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["African American Community Interviews Collection (William F. Ekstrom Library. University Archives and Records Center)"],"dcterms_subject":["African Americans--Kentucky--Louisville","African Americans--Education (Secondary)--Kentucky--Louisville","African Americans--Education (Higher)--Kentucky--Louisville","African Americans--Social conditions","Louisville Municipal College for Negroes (Louisville, Ky.)","African American universities and colleges--Kentucky--Louisville","African American high schools--Kentucky--Louisville","Central High School (Louisville, Ky.)","Kappa Alpha Psi Fraternity","African American Greek letter societies","African Americans--Employment","Discrimination in employment--Kentucky--Louisville","Race discrimination--Kentucky--Louisville","Race relations","Louisville (Ky.)--Race relations--History--20th century","World War, 1939-1945--African Americans","African American soldiers--Italy","United States. Army. Signal Corps--African American troops"],"dcterms_title":["Oral history interview with James Shively"],"dcterms_type":["Sound","Text"],"dcterms_provenance":["University of Louisville. Libraries. Archives and Special Collections"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["https://ohc.library.louisville.edu/interviews/record.php?q=Shively%2C%20James"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":["To inquire about reproductions, permissions, or for information about prices see: http://library.louisville.edu/uarc/digicollorder.html; please cite the Interview Number when ordering."],"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":null,"dlg_local_right":null,"dcterms_medium":["sound recordings","transcripts","oral histories (literary works)"],"dcterms_extent":["audio/mp3; application/pdf;","01:10:22; 29 pages;"],"dlg_subject_personal":["Shively, James, 1922-"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"noa_sohpcr_g-0075","title":"Oral history interview with Leslie W. Dunbar, December 18, 1978","collection_id":"noa_sohpcr","collection_title":"Oral Histories of the American South: The Civil Rights Movement","dcterms_contributor":["Hall, Jacquelyn Dowd","Bresler, Helen","Hall, Bob, 1944-","Dunbar, Peggy","Southern Oral History Program"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, Southern States, 33.346678, -84.119434"],"dcterms_creator":["Dunbar, Leslie"],"dc_date":["1978-12-18"],"dcterms_description":["Leslie Dunbar served as the executive director of the Southern Regional Council (SRC) from 1961 to 1965. Before that, he was a professor of political science at Emory University. In this interview, he describes an event at Emory in the late 1940s when he invited Bill Boyd, an African American political science professor from Atlanta University, to come speak. Dunbar describes this as an experience that piqued his awareness of racial issues and discrimination in the South. He subsequently became increasingly involved in the civil rights movement and eventually went to work for the SRC. Dunbar discusses leadership in the SRC, focusing particularly on Harold Fleming and Ralph McGill, before his tenure as director. According to Dunbar, the role of the SRC was to serve as an example and leader in changing racial attitudes in the South. As the director, he sought to herald \"a great historic mind-changing.\" Dunbar describes how the SRC interacted with the federal government during these years and especially emphasizes what he saw as a lack of interest in civil rights on the part of the Kennedy administration. After the setbacks the movement faced in Albany, Georgia, in the early 1960s, Dunbar explains how the SRC increasingly sought to work with other African American organizations rather than with the federal government. One accomplishment of the SRC that Dunbar emphasizes is the creation of the Voter Education Program, through which the SRC helped to raise and distribute funds to both national and local civil rights groups for the purpose of voter education and registration. Shortly after Dunbar left the SRC to go work for the Field Foundation in New York City, the SRC began to develop conflict within the organization and filed for bankruptcy. Nevertheless, Dunbar concludes by applauding the SRC's role in helping to push through some of the major changes in racial segregation and discrimination in the South during the 1960s.","The Civil Rights Digital Library received support from a National Leadership Grant for Libraries awarded to the University of Georgia by the Institute of Museum and Library Services for the aggregation and enhancement of partner metadata."],"dc_format":["text/html","text/xml","audio/mpeg"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":["Forms part of Oral histories of the American South collection."],"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":null,"dcterms_subject":["Southern Regional Council","Voter registration--Southern States","Civil rights workers--Southern States","Civil rights movements--Southern States","African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States","Voter Education Project (Southern Regional Council)","African Americans--Suffrage--Southern States","Segregation--Southern States","Southern States--Race relations"],"dcterms_title":["Oral history interview with Leslie W. Dunbar, December 18, 1978"],"dcterms_type":["Text","Sound"],"dcterms_provenance":["University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Documenting the American South (Project)"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://docsouth.unc.edu/sohp/G-0075/menu.html"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":null,"dlg_local_right":null,"dcterms_medium":["transcripts","sound recordings","oral histories (literary works)"],"dcterms_extent":["Title from menu page (viewed on July 11, 2008).","Interview participants: Leslie W. Dunbar, interviewee; Jacquelyn Hall, interviewer; Helen Bresler, interviewer; Bob Hall, interviewer; Peggy Dunbar, interviewee.","Duration: 03:34:07.","This electronic edition is part of the UNC-CH digital library, Documenting the American South. It is a part of the collection Oral histories of the American South.","Text encoded by Mike Millner. Sound recordings digitized by Aaron Smithers."],"dlg_subject_personal":["Dunbar, Leslie","Dunbar, Peggy"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"kylouu_afamoh_oh646","title":"Oral history interview with Eleanor Young Love","collection_id":"kylouu_afamoh","collection_title":"African American Oral History Collection","dcterms_contributor":null,"dcterms_spatial":["United States, Kentucky, Franklin County, 38.23915, -84.87707","United States, Kentucky, Franklin County, Frankfort, 38.20091, -84.87328","United States, Kentucky, Jefferson County, Louisville, 38.25424, -85.75941","United States, Kentucky, Shelby County, 38.21544, -85.19477","United States, Kentucky, Shelby County, Simpsonville, 38.22257, -85.35523"],"dcterms_creator":["Love, Eleanor Young, 1922-2006","Chumbley, Kenneth Lawrence"],"dc_date":["1978-10-02"],"dcterms_description":["Oral history interview with Eleanor Young Love, conducted on October 2, 1978 by Kenneth Chumbley. Dr. Love was a U of L professor and administrator, and sister of civil rights leader Whitney Young, Jr. Dr. Love discusses her parents, Laura and Whitney Young, Sr., their lives and involvement with Lincoln Institute in Simpsonville, Kentucky. Dr. Love and her brother were born in Lincoln Ridge, while her father was a teacher at Lincoln Institute, and she discusses the education they received there, and the atmosphere of safety and support that was fostered at Lincoln Institute. She describes her father's tenure as principal. She describes her experiences at Kentucky State, and also discusses her brother's emergence as a leader there. She recounts his subsequent service in the Army during World War II, where he discovered his ability to negotiate; specifically, he realized his ability to negotiate better conditions for his fellow black soldiers. She relates his educational experiences following his return to the States, and his involvement in a Harvard-based think tank. She discusses his involvement with the Urban League, and his relationships with those who chose different approaches to furthering the equal rights of African Americans. She describes the role of the Black Panthers and the riots, particularly in Detroit, in drawing some supporters to the Urban League. She also gives her perspective on the University of Louisville, which she came to in 1966 as a GE scholar. Dr. Love was quickly identified as a skilled negotiator, and she became involved in working students, including the students who eventually took over the office of the Dean of the College of Arts and Sciences in 1969. She offers criticism of the University of Louisville at that time (and in the 1970s) for failing to recruit and support black students and faculty. She does commend President Miller for his support of programs for students needing skill-building work. She gives her assessment of area public schools, and the possible reasons for their shortcomings. Dr. Love also headed the Lincoln Institute at the end of its days, from 1964 to 1966, and she discusses that experience. She recounts its closing, its brief life as a school for gifted and talent students, and its rebirth as the Whitney M. Young Job Corps Center. She discusses briefly the origins and role of the Lincoln Foundation.","The Civil Rights Digital Library received support from a National Leadership Grant for Libraries awarded to the University of Georgia by the Institute of Museum and Library Services for the aggregation and enhancement of partner metadata."],"dc_format":null,"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":["Audiocassette tapes number 646 \u0026 647, African American Oral History Collection, Oral History Center, University of Louisville Archives and Records Center."],"dc_relation":["Forms part of online collection: African American Community Interviews, Oral History Center, University of Louisville Archives and Records Center"],"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["African American Community Interviews Collection (William F. Ekstrom Library. University Archives and Records Center)"],"dcterms_subject":["African American universities and colleges--Kentucky","African Americans--Kentucky--Louisville","African Americans--Education--Kentucky","African Americans--Social conditions","African American social workers--Kentucky--Louisville","Segregation in education--Kentucky","Lincoln Institute (Simpsonville, Ky.)","Lincoln Institute (Simpsonville, Ky.)--Faculty","School closings--Kentucky--Simpsonville","School integration--Kentucky","African American schools--Kentucky--Simpsonville","African American educators--Kentucky","African American college teachers--Kentucky--Louisville","Civil rights workers--Kentucky--Louisville","Civil rights workers--United States","African American civil rights workers--Kentucky--Louisville","African American civil rights workers","Kentucky State College (Frankfort, Ky.)","African American universities and colleges--Kentucky--Frankfort","Civil rights--Kentucky--Louisville","African Americans--Civil rights--Kentucky--Louisville","African American soldiers--Civil rights","World War, 1939-1945--African Americans","University of Louisville","Student movments--Kentucky--Louisville","Protest movements--Kentucky--Louisville","Demonstrations--Kentucky--Louisville","Discrimination in higher education--Kentucky","African American college students--Kentucky--Louisville","Faculty integration--Kentucky--Louisville","Civil rights movements--United States","Black militant organizations--United States","Black Panther Party","National Urban League","Lincoln Foundation (Louisville, Ky.)","Public schools--Kentucky--Jefferson County"],"dcterms_title":["Oral history interview with Eleanor Young Love"],"dcterms_type":["Sound","Text"],"dcterms_provenance":["University of Louisville. Libraries. Archives and Special Collections"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["https://ohc.library.louisville.edu/interviews/record.php?q=Love%2C%20Eleanor%20Young"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":["To inquire about reproductions, permissions, or for information about prices see: http://library.louisville.edu/uarc/digicollorder.html; please cite the Interview Number when ordering."],"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":null,"dlg_local_right":null,"dcterms_medium":["transcripts","sound recordings","oral histories (literary works)"],"dcterms_extent":["application/pdf; audio/mp3;","01:30:28; 45 pages"],"dlg_subject_personal":["Young, Whitney M.","Young, Whitney M., 1897-1975","Young, Laura R., 1896-1962","Miller, James Grier","Hudson, J. Blaine","Love, Eleanor Young, 1922-2006"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"kylouu_afamoh_oh635","title":"Oral history interview with Goldie Beckett","collection_id":"kylouu_afamoh","collection_title":"African American Oral History Collection","dcterms_contributor":null,"dcterms_spatial":["United States, Kentucky, Jefferson County, Louisville, 38.25424, -85.75941"],"dcterms_creator":["Beckett, Goldie, 1914-1999","Chumbley, Kenneth Lawrence"],"dc_date":["1978-09-12"],"dcterms_description":["Oral history interview with Goldie Winstead Beckett, conducted on September 12, 1978 by Ken Chumbley. In this interview, Mrs. Beckett discusses her life as well as her husband's experiences as alderman in the city of Louisville in the late 1940s and early 1950s. Mrs. Beckett briefly describes her early life and education, including her graduation from Kentucky State College. Mrs. Beckett had a career in education, but also worked with her husband, and for her brother, in the undertaking business in Louisville. She speaks of the Walnut Street area before Urban Renewal. Mrs. Beckett's husband, William Washington Beckett, was elected alderman in 1951 and served until 1961. In this time, he played a role in the integration of the fire and police departments, the parks, and public accommodations, and in developing a Human Relations Commission. Mrs. Beckett discusses her husband's contributions and the civil rights movement in general (both in Louisville and more generally) and gives her opinion on the roles of Martin Luther King, Jr. and the African American church.","The Civil Rights Digital Library received support from a National Leadership Grant for Libraries awarded to the University of Georgia by the Institute of Museum and Library Services for the aggregation and enhancement of partner metadata."],"dc_format":null,"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":["Audiocassette tapes number 635 and 636, African American Oral History Collection, Oral History Center, University of Louisville Archives and Records Center."],"dc_relation":["Forms part of online collection: African American Community Interviews, Oral History Center, University of Louisville Archives and Records Center"],"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["African American Community Interviews Collection (William F. Ekstrom Library. University Archives and Records Center)"],"dcterms_subject":["Undertakers and undertaking--Kentucky--Louisville","Businesspeople--Kentucky--Louisville","African American businesspeople--Kentucky--Louisville","Politicians--Kentucky--Louisville","African American politicians--Kentucky--Louisville","City council members--Kentucky--Louisville","Discrimination in public accommodations--Kentucky--Louisville","Segregation--Law and legislation","Discrimination in employment--Kentucky--Louisville","African Americans--Employment","Civil rights--Kentucky--Louisville","Segregation--Kentucky--Louisville","Louisville (Ky.)--Race relations--History--20th century","Race discrimination--Kentucky--Louisville","Race relations","Kentucky State Industrial College for Colored Persons","Louisville (Ky.)--Politics and government","African Americans--Kentucky--Louisville","Civil rights movements--United States","African Americans--Religion"],"dcterms_title":["Oral history interview with Goldie Beckett"],"dcterms_type":["Sound","Text"],"dcterms_provenance":["University of Louisville. Libraries. Archives and Special Collections"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["https://ohc.library.louisville.edu/interviews/record.php?q=Beckett%2C%20Goldie"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":["To inquire about reproductions, permissions, or for information about prices see: http://library.louisville.edu/uarc/digicollorder.html; please cite the Interview Number when ordering."],"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":null,"dlg_local_right":null,"dcterms_medium":["sound recordings","transcripts","oral histories (literary works)"],"dcterms_extent":["application/pdf; audio/mp3","32 pages; 74:40:00"],"dlg_subject_personal":["Beckett, William W.","Cowger, William O. (William Owen), 1922-1971","King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968","Beckett, Goldie, 1914-1999"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"kylouu_afamoh_oh633","title":"Oral history interview with Amelia Ray","collection_id":"kylouu_afamoh","collection_title":"African American Oral History Collection","dcterms_contributor":null,"dcterms_spatial":["United States, Kentucky, Jefferson County, Louisville, 38.25424, -85.75941","United States, Tennessee, Montgomery County, 36.49686, -87.38289","United States, Tennessee, Montgomery County, Clarksville, 36.52977, -87.35945"],"dcterms_creator":["Ray, Amelia, 1899-2000","Chumbley, Kenneth Lawrence"],"dc_date":["1978-08-25"],"dcterms_description":["Oral history interview with Mrs. Amelia Ray, conducted on August 25, 1978 by Kenneth Chumbley. Mrs. Ray discusses her early life and upbringing in Tennessee as well as her life in Louisville. Mrs. Ray moved to Louisville in 1934 and attended Louisville Municipal College (LMC). She discusses her education both at LMC and at the University of Louisville. She describes many \"inconsistencies\" as she calls them--situations where African Americans were not treated the same as whites. She also discusses the civil rights movement, which she says she was not a direct part of.","The Civil Rights Digital Library received support from a National Leadership Grant for Libraries awarded to the University of Georgia by the Institute of Museum and Library Services for the aggregation and enhancement of partner metadata."],"dc_format":["application/pdf","audio/mpeg"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":["Audiocassette tape number 633, African American Oral History Collection, Oral History Center, University of Louisville Archives and Records Center."],"dc_relation":["Forms part of online collection: African American Community Interviews, Oral History Center, University of Louisville Archives and Records Center"],"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["African American Community Interviews Collection (William F. Ekstrom Library. University Archives and Records Center)"],"dcterms_subject":["African American women--Kentucky--Louisville","African American girls--Tennessee","African Americans--Social conditions","African Americans--Education (Higher)--Kentucky--Louisville","Segregation in education--Tennessee","Segregation in higher education--Kentucky--Louisville","Race relations","Louisville Municipal College for Negroes (Louisville, Ky.)","University of Louisville","Civil rights--Kentucky--Louisville","Tennessee--Race relations--History--20th century","Louisville (Ky.)--Race relations--History--20th century","African American universities and colleges--Kentucky--Louisville","Civil rights movements--Kentucky--Louisville","Oral history--Kentucky","College integration--Kentucky--Louisville"],"dcterms_title":["Oral history interview with Amelia Ray"],"dcterms_type":["Sound","Text"],"dcterms_provenance":["University of Louisville. Libraries. Archives and Special Collections"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["https://ohc.library.louisville.edu/interviews/record.php?q=Ray%2C%20Amelia"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":["To inquire about reproductions, permissions, or for information about prices see: http://library.louisville.edu/uarc/digicollorder.html; please cite the Interview Number when ordering."],"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":null,"dlg_local_right":null,"dcterms_medium":["transcripts","sound recordings","oral histories (literary works)"],"dcterms_extent":["01:04:01; 29 pages"],"dlg_subject_personal":["Ray, Amelia, 1899-2000"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"kylouu_afamoh_oh602","title":"Oral history interview with Frank Moorman, Sr.","collection_id":"kylouu_afamoh","collection_title":"African American Oral History Collection","dcterms_contributor":null,"dcterms_spatial":["United States, Kentucky, Daviess County, 37.73177, -87.08723","United States, Kentucky, Daviess County, Owensboro, 37.77422, -87.11333","United States, Kentucky, Jefferson County, Louisville, 38.25424, -85.75941"],"dcterms_creator":["Moorman, Frank L.","Chumbley, Kenneth Lawrence"],"dc_date":["1978-08-17"],"dcterms_description":["Oral history interview with Frank Moorman, Sr., conducted on August 17, 1978 by Kenneth Chumbley. Mr. Moorman was a businessman in Louisville's Walnut Street area. Mr. Moorman discusses his parents and grandparents, and his early life in Owensboro, Kentucky. He describes his early career there, working for Mr. White, a black pharmacist, both in Owensboro, and then - starting in 1926 - in Louisville. Moorman talks about his move to Louisville, and his move into his own business, first in partnership with J.C. McDonald, and later on his own. Mr. Moorman owned two service stations, one at the corner of 6th and Walnut, and the second at 8th and Walnut. The station at 8th and Walnut was a Standard Oil franchise, and Mr. Moorman discusses his relationship with that company. He also talks about his experiences with Urban Renewal and the civil rights movement, which he supported in principle but which he was not actively involved with. He describes his own personal philosophy of race relations, and his pride at his achievements in business.","The Civil Rights Digital Library received support from a National Leadership Grant for Libraries awarded to the University of Georgia by the Institute of Museum and Library Services for the aggregation and enhancement of partner metadata."],"dc_format":null,"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":["Audiocassette tapes number 602 \u0026 603, African American Oral History Collection, Oral History Center, University of Louisville Archives and Records Center."],"dc_relation":["Forms part of online collection: African American Community Interviews, Oral History Center, University of Louisville Archives and Records Center"],"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["African American Community Interviews Collection (William F. Ekstrom Library. University Archives and Records Center)"],"dcterms_subject":["African Americans--Kentucky--Louisville","African American business enterprises--Kentucky--Louisville","African American businesspeople--Kentucky--Louisville","Drugstores--Kentucky--Louisville","Pharmacists--Kentucky--Louisville","African American pharmacists--Kentucky--Louisville","Urban renewal--Kentucky--Louisville","Service stations--Kentucky--Louisville","Standard Oil Company","Civil rights--Kentucky--Louisville","African Americans--Civil rights--Kentucky--Louisville","Civil rights movements--Kentucky--Louisville","Race relations","Louisville (Ky.)--Race relations--History--20th century"],"dcterms_title":["Oral history interview with Frank Moorman, Sr."],"dcterms_type":["Sound","Text"],"dcterms_provenance":["University of Louisville. Libraries. Archives and Special Collections"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["https://ohc.library.louisville.edu/interviews/record.php?q=Moorman%2C%20Frank"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":["To inquire about reproductions, permissions, or for information about prices see: http://library.louisville.edu/uarc/digicollorder.html; please cite the Interview Number when ordering."],"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":null,"dlg_local_right":null,"dcterms_medium":["transcripts","sound recordings","oral histories (literary works)"],"dcterms_extent":["application/pdf; audio/mp3;","26 pages; 01:15:32;"],"dlg_subject_personal":["White, R. F. (Randolph F.)","Moorman, Frank L."],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"noa_sohpcr_b-0059","title":"Oral history interview with Kojo Nantambu, May 15, 1978","collection_id":"noa_sohpcr","collection_title":"Oral Histories of the American South: The Civil Rights Movement","dcterms_contributor":["Thomas, Larry Reni","Southern Oral History Program"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, North Carolina, New Hanover County, 34.18141, -77.86561","United States, North Carolina, New Hanover County, Wilmington, 34.22573, -77.94471"],"dcterms_creator":["Nantambu, Kojo"],"dc_date":["1978-05-15"],"dcterms_description":["In May 1978, Kojo Nantambu, who was originally named Roderick Kirby but who adopted his new name in 1972, sat down with Larry Thomas, a historian, jazz disc jockey and Wilmington native. During the interview, Nantambu describes what he remembers of the Wilmington racial violence of 1971, the inequities present in the trial of the Wilmington Ten, and the aftermath of the conflict. Because the tapes start midway through the interview and Nantambu frequently jumps between topics, additional information about the racial situation in Wilmington is provided here. Throughout the mid-twentieth century, racial tensions in Wilmington, North Carolina, ran high, and the greatest disagreements were over high school desegregation. Beginning in 1967, buses took volunteer African American students to the two white suburban high schools, but when the students arrived, they found themselves surrounded by hostility and resentment. Many of these youths, including Kojo Nantambu, became the leaders of the 1971 turmoil. After the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. on April 4, 1968, young African American mourners marched through town, and when white authorities attempted to stop them, the youths rioted, causing over two hundred thousand dollars in damage. Though the violence ended on April 10, conflict continued.","In the fall of 1968, white authorities announced that they would close the black Williston Senior High School and send all African American adolescents to the suburban institutions. Students of both races complained and fights between white and black pupils became commonplace. In May 1970, black high school students marched to protest student government election results; white teenagers responded and eventually the sheriff intervened. By the following fall, African American youths had organized the Black Youth Builders of the Black Community (BYBBC). On January 15, 1971, fifteen black high school students staged a sit-in because the school board prohibited a memorial service on King's birthday. On January 22, a large-scale fight erupted between white and black students, and one black female was injured. The next week, racial conflict continued. Police officers patrolled the schools, and school authorities suspended a large number of black students. The suspended pupils and the BYBBC established an alternative school at Gregory Congregational Church. When he learned of the school, Reverend Leon White, the director of the North Carolina-Virginia Commission for Racial Justice of the United Church of Christ, sent Benjamin Chavis Jr. to help. Shortly after Chavis's arrival, membership in the school reached five hundred, and arson attacks against white businesses began. Meanwhile, a local white supremacist group called the Rights of White People (ROWP) harassed African Americans, particularly targeting Wilmington's black neighborhood around the Gregory Congregational Church. These are the events described in the Nantambu interview.","Nantambu begins his narrative by describing the class conflicts within the white community and explaining to Thomas how that contributed to the 1971 violence. Working class whites, Nantambu says, reacted violently to integration because race gave them access to power they otherwise would not have had. Nantambu remembers Friday, February 5, 1971, as an important turning point. That night, several young black men were shot, and fear had so gripped the black community that the African American students at the Gregory Congregation Church established a makeshift medical clinic to deal with the injured rather than send them to the hospital. Guards were sent to the border of the black community, and barricades were erected to keep whites out. The next morning, a white sniper targeted the black neighborhood. Nantambu remembers carloads of whites roaming the city, attacking any blacks they encountered. That night, arsonists torched Mike's Grocery, a white-owned store in the black neighborhood. Chavis, Reginald Epps, Jerry Jacobs, James McKoy, Wayne Moore, Anne Shepard, Marvin \"Chili\" Patrick, Connie Tindall, Willie Earl Vereen, and William \"Joe\" Wright Jr., nine black male youths and one white female social worker, were arrested, charged and convicted of the arson. These became known as the Wilmington Ten. Nantambu maintains that Chavis, McKoy, Patrick, Tindall, and Wright were among the contingent guarding the border of the black community, giving them an alibi for the arson attack. Nantambu hypothesizes on the motives for the arson and then reflects on the murder of Stevenson Gibb Mitchell, which happened concurrently. Nantambu remembers that Mitchell's death made the black teenagers realize that whites would not negotiate for peace. The next morning, cars full of whites broke through the barricades and wreaked further havoc in the neighborhood. On Monday, the National Guard took control of the area and searched the church for weapons. Nantambu claims that the dynamite and other weapons found there were planted to discredit the students. When asked to define the conflict, Nantambu says that the black neighborhood staged an insurrection rather than a rebellion because all they demanded were their rights. When the trial started, Nantambu and others picketed it, but neither this nor any of the injunctions filed by the Ten's lawyers halted the proceedings. Witnesses Allen Hall and Jerome Mitchell later recanted their testimonies against the Ten, and Nantambu closes the interview by reflecting on why they might have first spoken against the Ten.","The Civil Rights Digital Library received support from a National Leadership Grant for Libraries awarded to the University of Georgia by the Institute of Museum and Library Services for the aggregation and enhancement of partner metadata."],"dc_format":["text/html","text/xml","audio/mpeg"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":["Forms part of Oral histories of the American South collection."],"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":null,"dcterms_subject":["North Carolina--Race relations","African American radicals--North Carolina--Wilmington","African American civil rights workers--North Carolina--Wilmington","Race riots--North Carolina--Wilmington","African American high school students--North Carolina--Wilmington","Black militant organizations--North Carolina--Wilmington","African Americans--Civil rights--North Carolina--Wilmington","Trials (Conspiracy)--North Carolina--Wilmington","Wilmington (N.C.)--Race relations"],"dcterms_title":["Oral history interview with Kojo Nantambu, May 15, 1978"],"dcterms_type":["Text","Sound"],"dcterms_provenance":["University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Documenting the American South (Project)"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://docsouth.unc.edu/sohp/B-0059/menu.html"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":null,"dlg_local_right":null,"dcterms_medium":["transcripts","sound recordings","oral histories (literary works)"],"dcterms_extent":["Title from menu page (viewed on Oct. 30, 2008).","Interview participants: Kojo Nantambu, interviewee; Larry Thomas, interviewer.","Duration: 01:02:59.","This electronic edition is part of the UNC-Chapel Hill digital library, Documenting the American South. It is a part of the collection Oral histories of the American South.","Text encoded by Jennifer Joyner. Sound recordings digitized by Aaron Smithers."],"dlg_subject_personal":["Nantambu, Kojo"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"noa_sohpcr_b-0034","title":"Oral history interview with Marion Wright, March 8, 1978","collection_id":"noa_sohpcr","collection_title":"Oral Histories of the American South: The Civil Rights Movement","dcterms_contributor":["Hall, Jacquelyn Dowd","Southern Oral History Program"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, North Carolina, 35.50069, -80.00032","United States, South Carolina, Richland County, Columbia, 34.00071, -81.03481"],"dcterms_creator":["Wright, Marion A. (Marion Allan), 1894-1983"],"dc_date":["1978-03-08"],"dcterms_description":["Marion Wright describes his beliefs about racial justice and his membership in the Southern Regional Council (SRC). Wright was one of a group of white southerners who sought to tackle the entrenched racism of the twentieth-century South. As a member of the SRC, Wright sought to end legal segregation, although he and other members were sensitive to pushing for too much change too quickly. The group also stayed off the streets as protest mounted, seeking to maintain its authority as well as its tax-exempt status. As the civil rights movement reached new beginnings in the 1950s and 1960s, the SRC faded. This interview is a portrait of a civil rights leader in the era before the movement was defined by direct action.","The Civil Rights Digital Library received support from a National Leadership Grant for Libraries awarded to the University of Georgia by the Institute of Museum and Library Services for the aggregation and enhancement of partner metadata."],"dc_format":["text/html","text/xml","audio/mpeg"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":["Forms part of Oral histories of the American South collection."],"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":null,"dcterms_subject":["Civil rights movements--North Carolina","Civil rights workers--Southern States","Southern Regional Council","Civil rights movements--Southern States","African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States","Segregation--Southern States","Southern States--Race relations","University of South Carolina--Students"],"dcterms_title":["Oral history interview with Marion Wright, March 8, 1978"],"dcterms_type":["Text","Sound"],"dcterms_provenance":["University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Documenting the American South (Project)"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://docsouth.unc.edu/sohp/B-0034/menu.html"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":null,"dlg_local_right":null,"dcterms_medium":["transcripts","sound recordings","oral histories (literary works)"],"dcterms_extent":["Title from menu page (viewed on June 25, 2008).","Interview participants: Marion Wright, interviewee; Jacquelyn Hall, interviewer.","Duration: 01:43:13.","This electronic edition is part of the UNC-CH digital library, Documenting the American South. It is a part of the collection Oral histories of the American South.","Text encoded by Mike Millner. Sound recordings digitized by Aaron Smithers."],"dlg_subject_personal":["Wright, Marion A. (Marion Allan), 1894-1983"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"ffc_crlsa_p15415coll1-1043","title":"Hamilton Upchurch, Frank Upchurch : Transcribed Interview","collection_id":"ffc_crlsa","collection_title":"Civil Rights Library of St. Augustine","dcterms_contributor":["Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, University of Florida"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, Florida, 28.75054, -82.5001"],"dcterms_creator":["Upchurch, Hamilton","Upchurch, Frank","Colburn, David"],"dc_date":["1978-01-25"],"dcterms_description":["Interview with Hamilton Upchurch and Frank Upchurch, local St. Augustine citizens. The Upchurches discuss life in St. Augustine before and after the '64 movement. They discuss St. Augustine's tourism industry, white responses to the Cvil Rights Movement, personalities related to the movement and general facts about life in St. Augustine.","CRST.A 3A Subject: Mr. Hamilton Upchurch, Frank Upchurch Interviewer: DA v1]) Co/£'-tn.N 1/25/78 sj I : U: ~ \\ vJ '\"'~J'- l ){-~1'l,\\ I guess, basically, VJ ~was with you, and your family. How long you and your family have been in St. Augustine. We've got,H (A\"\"\"- ~-v \u003c:J.L AtA]\"'-~l-1r1-t.. 1..J 171 .. ,S itt'J 4 -tkt(t.__ ti\u003cll'I\\~ ~e~t.. I I .t1:: catr-Lt ..lH:rrt. to practice I ~w bc_Pon...c... I wAS J:::JOJ'?..I\\,) I: What did your, what sort of occupation, why did your father phone [;J~!lrl-u L/l1tci;f/M·c,~[guess I could ask him that, since ~l!. ~--~-----~~ ~ U: He, uh, had been practicing law in FernAndina and Jacksonville. He was asked to join a... (o.w ~in..V\" ~---~-------------~~---~- I: Now yourself, o/here were you educated, where did you go to school? U: All right, I was educated, with preparatory education for scho_ol in Bellbuckle, Tennessee. And then I went into the service, immediatley after that. Upon return from the service, I went to ,,.; ~ the University of Florida for uh, to obtain a B.S. degreeU/194,8', --(] {?f.I f f\\J/'l\"-Went a-l:-efi.g to law school at the University of SS? 1967. Graduated Law School in 19 ·. I: What, how would you describe the community of St. Augustine that you grew up, in it? U: I think the community was somewhat It was not typically small~~t was a little bit more sophisticated than the average small ,C~n tr al · Florida townlt\\ -'-/r J _4 \"_....___J _w_ ~_ _l_6 --_J-. _________ a great deal of tourists for the pu1... c.,,,r:''-\"'- r 11 , n r--.- :;-·1 ~ t-on.. 111\\.t'J S(rJ..'{ o~ '- ;-u·~·w, ._. deal of tourists at that time,+ \"' rw.k ould income was high~ southern tradition, but a little hit ---~-------- CR ST.A 3A sj page 2 more desirable place to live~ -Ji~_A_w~~~~-the average town. It has so many of the advantages of a large town, with its proximity to Jacksonville, and to Daytona, and to the resort to the ocean. I: You know, you said it had a lot of the southern traditions. I'm INeAC.. just curious as to, in your mind, what, what~ some examples of those southern traditions that existed. U: Well, because I grew up here, there were segregation, was clearly defined, and not contested. Although St. Augustine was, did not have a black town, a white town, as such, there were blocks, just one or two blocks of blacks, immediately in, adjacent to white areas, of the better class ~l,J__.~~lk~_ON--~w.\u003e~~-·They were sprinkled about town, and I think its because of its age. That was were servants lived, behind the better houses. And I can name three or four places in the community, and as people's ability to have servants stopped, they continued to live in harmony, almost as unsegregated 1 s ~ f'/, ql\"\"~ type of community. Which I think~~~~~~~~-' at that time, for that size community. -}J,.tlf F: I think it was too. I've never seen another community_;:...-.t-t- had such a pattern of residential desegregation I: But besides race, is there anything else that exibited southern tradition, so to speak, gave examples of southern traditions. Was, was the pace - · ~ C\u003e,__,....:=:, -\"\"\"'== ? You always hear about the I~~'- = pace of the ..wfri:1:.e being leisurely. r I .ri n~ rAc\u003c' \u003c\u003et\" I :12 ., .. H\\$. JL U: :ud\\.-e-wfta-:t-?- In other words, 1()1'2.Q..., - air con di tioning.1 \"'The people who were fairly well off all worked in the Many of the shops in St. Augustine closed in the summertime. The major hotels closed. They would close, and went to Michigan, and CR ST. A 3A sj page 3 other places in the East. They had summer shops there, that was their skill at work. 5lovis ~ ~. And consequently things pretty well slowed down. For example, our Sunday school let out in the summer, just like regular grade . r ' I {- \u0026 Ji-J -It\u003e 1-vu11.lS.{- -f:~f)j)QJ school let out in the summer. U?\"'\"'{lt\u003el'r01 • \\\"(. · F: Things really slowed up in the summer. In winter, we would be packed. It was a complete reverse. I: Was there any social hierarchy? Some, when you read about the old southern communities, there was sort of the, the vermin, uh, professional business community who formed the entire social hierarchy in the community, was there that? U: No, I don't think so. I: Yet, yet, interesting enough, your father came here, and he, he, obviously, there must have been some real opportunity because he became very active and influential in his, in his own career. U: He was successful as an attorney. I think the, there was much more social class then, than in other periods. Your professional types and some business types, and then those that were, uh, married or inherited money, and didn't work, formed a social 5-tnA ~c._ ~, and then there were ~~;;00 ,........,,.., 0 C\u003e..J\"=/' ... ,,(btV° And it was much more stilted when he used to work. For example, my mother never referred to her next door neighbor as anything other f\\,_ (',\\2 L \\5 1t-) than Mrs., and Mr. Today, you know this backyard part~, and you're running over there borrowing a cup of sugar, and whatever. But, when I grew up, although we were not picky people, but they refer to each other as Mr. and Mrs. He worked the rail; ~\" .c~.Jv;~ fl. w I'\\.. A; 1•., , \\\"' '1 c ri ..no-t: wlnle he :was ..a:way •. Nobody felt,,.· and we went to the same church. But, were great people. Their children o..\"'J- 1'-\"'t hri0 ·fl,,1'1_ A\"'° J.:. CR ST.A 3A sj °\"n_ t sfi II page 4 school friends today. But, it was that formality, and that is a southern tradition.. Along that same line, these are things I remember as a child. There were certain people that uh, many of the wives did not work, that were among my mothers friends. And the style was to have tea, to dress to the ±tc+l in the afternoon, and you could call on friends, make a formal call, where you wore hats, and gloves, and you were seated by a maid, and left your calling card if the lady of the house was not there. And, we did that, or you sat around in the afternoon, fully dressed, awaiting calls 'by others on you. Again, a custom. I: Uh, as you were brought up, were you aware of any racial problems at all in this community? U: No, nothing prior to World War. II. HA,Lft.l{:r I: How about after the war? Uh, say before this .fellow Ha-1-6)' came here, were there, were there any difficulties, not so much was there any violence, but, I guess that what I'm trying to ask, is was it apparent that things were building towards, say '63~h64? ~ NV-.' '.:\u003e Y'/\\ '\"' l) In~ U: Ye ah. · [ wo._l l e;..__? In retrospect. For example, we had a colored college here, called Florida A Baptist, a black Baptist school, that, uh, It 1r.HIV'+- ON __ • a few years on back. That school was having, before the war, and after the war, was totally segregated, totally from the black students. But they were, as I look back on it now, and then the references to them, the administration and faculty at that time /:,/o.-c,,k L._ was, they were pushing tteabl:\"e .•.. An that, they were endeavoring to get black-white, uh, contact through programs t{_Ju,_~., A,.,\"\\) \u003c;\"o -hii.:?.:ll. ,--- CR ST.A 3A sj page 5 I : They'd put on a musical program, or something, and always invite white business leaders, and you would go. ----------~\u0026e~Then, after the program wasn't totally /2~~ ~ fhov..t.l+I a lot of the segregated~mr~~~~~~~~~~~nobody b~ anything aJoDvd-~1t e-f value': But, other than, the reference, occasionally to a black as being a P'· ~s.\" +1 pr. aware of pa ob krcs 1 n..ert/(t 1 ·) I think I was not lu,1h { Ji...':\u003e./- b(!i}.otJ_L. _. _.. \\_-{_A_~- -====--__o_ c._tt~_n._~·_·t_. _ How about there was a fellow who's now over in Gainesville, a Called ['116'~~ c ~ Negro fellow, I ~ .. ,....,..::\u003e (;J111c~'~ r· ~ __. He was minister here. I have talked to him, he claimed a lot for himself, and I'm not quite honestly sure what to believe, in terms 0£.i sort of {Vt.G R..o mobilizing the .J..egal community. But, I was wondering if you were aware of his presence at all. You might not have been involved in any of that, but if you were . U: I knew a lot of the names .:of, but I was not aware of it. There was no overt actions to try to break down any of the segregated +n,rr\"rfrmv; pi'l1~c. Iv l9\u0026~.) \"16;\" . ..μ.osl:-t~, I can see. I was just I : very , and if there was any, it was one -------------~ or two individuals .that were particularly But, not in any particular portion In other words, Kl~\"' o-.M(\"-. IA':\u003e the p-hrn was not ~ The re was not , 1+- 0 ..,,._/\\_.,. 0 _._.6'--'-....._.. ,/\"_\\, .,.,---\"'=\"\"'------·~---_ .. pre-World War II, I was not aware of any plan of action, I'm sure they had an organization, but it wasn't called on to do the ~rLeA+·J. Well, that fits with the picture that I know. C1et's put this a -- ... -------·----\"1. little close~}:: \"\" 1c,•v)pL.o..,t] U: ~ut it right here if you want to. Put it on the desk if you'd like.:J I: You were active, as I recall, in the Chamber of Commerce, was that CR ST.A 3A sj page 6 correct? U: I : Were you, uh, president in '64, or '65? U: Probably, I don't have these facts. I: Yeah, I think it may have been '64. I was just, uh, as president, what specifically was your role in the 'commerce? What function? ? u: Did you have ... Well, President of Chamber of Commerce was just a one year term, and you had an executive director, presided at meetings, and most of your policy is pretty well set. The Chamber of Commerce, that~ really a misnomer. ) Its more tourist than merchant. The Chamber of Commerce, although it works toward the industry, and other things of that nature, but it~ more tourist oriented than anything else, it~ more supported by tourism, or tourist attractions, so, I can't, other than try to get additional members. I was not aware of any particular programs underway at that time. I: Were you actively soliciting new'busin~ss for St. Augustine~ trying to attract a small business or co~p~nA1toiJ U: Subcommittees of the Chamber were working in that area, especially tourists. I understand its all volunteer, with busy people. A real small staff, that pretty well operated the Information Center, and Executive Director, and the secretary, c,._p,JQ f\u003e1VS1Ncn. 1 /IJ0v--1r\u003c.1~.., ~J_ o..'H-i:.vr-p1* ~.,_, run~ down things. I: Did the, uh, was the Chamber aware of the racial problems in '63, was it involved in '63? '63 they, Hailing~ started the sit-ins, and then the white fellow, William Canard was, was killed in the fall. And Hailing, for some reason, got himself out of~his ~Ian meeeting) Was the Chamber aware that CR ST.A 3A sj this thing might somehow get out of hand, or did it just see that as a local problem? It might just \u003c;1\"\"mel-'2 , quiet down. U: I think at that time, they attributed the problems to a , an individual, on the local level. And, I thought~·~ ------ c./ c:\u003e '-\" \" along this line. I'm not conscious of having any thoughts But I think the general concensus was, there was I: Yeah. Well, I suppose maybe I oughta ask, did you know Hailing, other, did you ever meet with him? U: No. I: Uh-huh. But did you, but you got the sense, definately, that he was responsible for much of the problems of '63 and '64. U: That's right, I got the impression that he was a leader at the time. And he saw a great deal of, detected some unrest, but no way to mobilize it. And, there was a movement, I'm sure tiTat, ------ a counter-movement within the black community, we've always let on great here, let's don't make waves. And then there was a militant type that wanted to make waves, based on some I: You know, it seems to me, and I, I don't know if you can accurately reflect on this or not, but it seemed to me that Hailing had support from the College. Support among some young Negro kids, who were at the high school, and a few, what seemed like a very few older Negro citizens who lived here. Am I at all accurate in this~ /at least this, I've seen it through the records of U: It's probably accurate. I: Um-hmm. U; Of course, the black community in St. Augustine had been I - I CR ST. A 3A sj page 8 I think our ratio-was low, for Butler County ~~~~~~~~~~~ I think its something like twenty percent. That may not be an accurate figure. I had it So\"\" tv-1~ ;...., ~) V\"'' WP +t~+ tlnA-'~ ~be.\"\"\".+ P.16.lt\"I 4,..,,1::1 tlHn \"': r..: '.(.,-. ... -0 ihe state average is maybe ~or~ercent. ,...A((,L But, I got the impression,.~ have seen figure~ that the ratio of black to white had been 1e.f.f.1N6 9ne~hfL cJ+bu\\A~~ bf~c .. A1.\"\u003e h~,l btc..i j111N(,. down, in numbers. Some because there was no industry type, no machinization of the agriculture, and no industry types of jobs. r: Yeah, we' re smaller, but within a whole lot 3 VV\\~lkh.... its eighteen, St. Augustine, at that time, when state-wide it was l.i..1. 't{ ltt.. tv. ... ~~ tNq f't1:_ ,~ ........{ -- 21. 8, almost 22 percent. But I think you're right, I think it ~ d.e c/1~1,...r;. - was de-fined because of the nature of St. Augustine being a tourist ,-uJ. Ce.11.rh.fL, industrial relat.e-d jobs. One of the things that kind of baffled me, is that I see St. Augustine as a real progressive community. You could, just because it had a history of racial segregation, to me, does not mean its not a progressive community. It was caught up in its history, it had its pattern of residential segregation that seemed to pull to t-h€- . c._ rn..u~ /e.,..,..._ with race relations. It had, the community had begun to voluntarily desegregate its schools, and I wondered, how did it, how did this thing, how do you, why do you see it engulfing St. Augustine the way it did? It was almost chaos in '64. U: Well, I think you had a small, very militant counter C...oc.-v::..c:.... vJ\\,.,.\\\\-C. within the b.l.aek community, all rednecks, a popular term, that would meet every advance in the black community by~a. counter action. We, what I thought was the real thinking of leadership of this CR ST.A 3A sj page 9 I : U: community, almost became And caught in the middle, and had a lot of its so called friend$, or drinking buddies, who were redneck. I hate to use that term, but it saves a lot of words. Um-hmm. It had a lot of /u the black community, and just hated to see it. It took more overt steps to revert it. And just stood by almost with your head in the sand. This was the great majority of people that I think were Just really became Two really poor With that, Law enforcement I: How'd the Chamber, what was, did the Chamber try to initiate any any action to, Uh, ... ? U: No, the Chamber. I : You. U: And I guess I get blamed myself as much as -·' '7 {)Vo- /-rAJr;vJ. _. I went all week and became Mayor in '67. But, I wasn't thinking about it at the time. And I was serving on the Chamber as a The Chamber dropped efforts to improve. vJ *\"' ~ c._.o~ YI-\\ eY2C{. • 5 -\\--\"\\ 't (' \u0026. the.~~...s..t.at..e- completely out of COrJC.C•~N~o. Tlv( WCV2..e,. gr@ ates t , they hated to see it i;oL1.yt. f?nl)Gt'2,tf;'f15 • ____ ....:...._ ____ . ' coucer~s, strictly they knew it was going to hurt business. But as far as anything the Chamber thought, there was nothing I: Thats one of the tfuings that kind of baffles me, really, because, CR ST.A 3A sj page 10 eighty-five, the figure I've seen is eighty-five percent of the community was dependent in some way on the tourist industry. And, which took a real beating according to the statistics from the lCA~h\\lu Jt S\";iN 'l'f\\i'\\r.ttl'l M\"l110 .. \u003c\\L VYION()•rttclllT] fort. Um, in, you know, as the months progressed from the spring to the summer, it was obvious that it was getting worse, and I wondered why either of the commission, or -€avDr. Shelley, or the Chamber, or some other part of the leadership of the community wasn't saying, \"Listen, we simply can't afford it. Whether the community wanted it or not, we just can't, economically, afford to continue.\" U: Well, one thing we haven't talked about. This commimi ty has got {).... ... ..:t-ft.e., is very conservative. It was then the John Birch Society, you don't hear much about it any more, but it was an extreme right-wing. A really good, Christian people. And, anything you pll.() Y1c'~C'°') t.Vti.J (,.J blA\\l S\u003c'...SS IUN'S I S.U.WocS.e.d., ~ ~t • Socially anywhere, mean real '1..,, ,/\\ -/.'.'\\ ~ ,/~--- /-\\' ,::\\----,.(\"\\. \\.VU~ e-'-/~v '----'. ·· ··~ v ·· anyway conciliatory, you were ostracized by this, I good friends 5i'o+-_c- .:._I;_{-c_Yt--_£~0'--v--.-·--'\"·-·-------- you were ostracized by this extreme right-wing. And they said, this time is bigger than your pocketbook, and so those that wanted to make a concession, so to speak, for economic reasons, to save the tourist industry, were really set upon by the extreme right­handed friends. Or, this redneck government, with which they were left not R.dc:....~J. , but had the same goals. ---~---~ I: Um-hmm. Do you have any idea why the Birch Society was influenced by,\u003c:I know Dr. Norris, I believe at the time was the head of it. Uh, do you know why they were so influential? CR ST.A 3A sj U: Well, they were ... page 11 I: Were they, was it, sort of the Kennedy thing that got them, I don't know, seems, seems like the Birch Society begins to flourish with the Kennedy administration reaction to it, and then grows even more in the Johnson administration. rr,,C1-1,..1~y eit.\"\" U: I think it came from Ga!penter, that there was a Communist behind every bush. And in th.W movement, of social change, was Communist\u003ctii J\"''?p/12.e .. J. And, I think a lot of people just kept ~ ~ 1 c..-\\-- with fear of being lab led a liberal, -11~.:....;;;...-- I: Go ahead. U: And, very few people really spoke out on it, and I know one or two that did, and they lost ~ome friends over it, two really close friends. A man I have referenced to, I'm sure you wouldn't mind him speaking, is Dr. Jackson, a well I: Um-hmm. U: Originally from Michigan, well-respected veterinarian. Although He was ------------' and,~ he endeavored to have some informal type of bi-racial committee, with his lectures. And he went through a hammer's hell, with his friends. just really didn't speak to him, thats all, because, not that he wanted to completely change the ... F: ,.w~-- I: Um hmm. U: the community, but, I felt sorry for him, for a while. I didn't come to his defense. I: Um hmm. .J.-o U: I continued to speak w.i-\"eh him, but an awful lot of people just CR ST.A 3A sj page 12 didn't do a damn thing, either way. And I think that the pressures were definately Why it I: Do you have any thoughts as to why Martin Luther King, and . [Sov.-\\J,...t.,,.,_, C.i-n.1s./-1A,.., l-is nr,• ~~flll\" CurvGnc.,ce J 5 C LC.. came to St. Augustine? U: Sure. I thought, I think it was a secluded building for our %t'.A\"\"J12~\"--centennial, in '65. There was goiing to be some media attention focused on St. Augustine, we didn't go overboard as to ' as celebrations went. And, consequently, he would ride that, as well as the media coverage that he had anyway. Jhe first white settlement in the United States would be a great place to kick off this really radical departure. I: Um hmm. U: Over ~ivil ~ights act. I: Um hmm. U: Wherever they'd _jμo'--4r~w,__~~~ the settlement, all the doors in restuarants and motels would be open. I: Um hmm. U: I don't think he became the cause of any so-called hardship cases, or mistreatment, on behalf of the black community. Just those \u003e.'·.~l . certain things. 5\\: \u003cJ I: Ther·e was some accent, I know, made by James .Draco Lamonson, who got an inordinate amount of criticism for what happened at his motel, a lot of which, as I see, wasn't really his fault. And it seemed to me, on occasion, he tried to get things, tried to restoreA°\" sort of normal relationship. U: He did. That, now thats the example of what I'm talking about. arock was in the middle. He was damned if he did, and damned if CR ST.A 3A sj page 13 he didn't. There was going to be black pickets in front of his D~J place, orAhe took the blacks in, there were going to be white pickets in front. And so the people that were really I: Um hmm. U: I mean, if you're traveling through town with your family, you I : don't want to ruin your vacation, have your car messed up, or your sleep disturbed. And so this, this poor guy was getting it from both ends, and he was in the middle, he had a big mortgage payment, and he was just totally frustrated, he didn't know which way to turn. The thing is, one of the things that struck me, he, he did make an effort to get the motel and restuarant owners together, and they had some meetings, and Noel Pope\\~~\\ was asked to be sort of their spokesman, and he did, and yet the thing never seemed to get off the ground, and I was, you know, again this goes back to the business sort of thing. The thing that struck me was, here was an opportunity for the business community sort of come together as a group. People who weren't directly involved in this sort of activities, and those that were and get these /took elements out of St. Augustine, the Klan, from, seemed like f J k . 11 IA.· d . Ki~C. rom ac sonvi e, to me) ~n ~' an d , yo. u . k.n. ow. , estab l.i s h relationships that the community could live with. And yet, it didn't come together~~didn't seem to get off the ground, nor dfd it, nor did the whole white business community seem to come together. And, it also seemed to me they got little cooperation from Dr. Shelley, who was mayor of the commission that day. I wonder if you had any thoughts as to, if I'm right, first of all, CR ST.A sj and why this might ~ave been. page 14 U: I've got some ideas about it. Thats the weakness of law enforcement. ·The Sheriff, Chief of Police, Chief of Police Burgess )-/e_t.rJAf\u003cS , was extreme right wing, and he doesn't say too much about it now, but at that time, he saw Communists behind every bush. He didn't think there was one there, he saw them. And, stop him in the street, and he'd refer to \"they're\" doing this, and \"they're\" doing that, but he couldn't put a name on who \"they\" was. But, he, and the Sheriff, was the two only law enforcement agencies we had. Uh, were not instrumental in fairly enforcing the law. It was not to hear this. They, they couldn't have designed a system any more favwrable to King's movement than the way they did. I: Um hmm. U: I had occasion to meet W~th the sheriff, I believe of Selma, - - '-,- -------- Al ab ama, or one of the places who had just had problems with King. I: Um hmm. U: And I forget his name, now, but it, he was a big one. And, I asked him a question, law enforcement. He said, \"I sent word to the white community, and I sent word to the black community, that I was going to put my foot in their Gu'l. \u003e\\J! ... ~ t\" collar, and there were anybody who was ,.._, ~c.C:-nR-n1.es.5 , I ~~~~~~~~~ didn't care wh_at Co\\o'Q, II ~\\\u003cctJ And~ had St. Augustine ~aking a~-fair attitude toward all lawbreakers, a firm law enforcement ...• We were running into a lot of problems. With that, the redneck element and the right wing element, and law enforcement, were working to put this fire out. And not to a fair concept, but CR ST.A 3A sj not to a fair administration of justice in I: Um hmm. page 15 Cgun Ly • ....._ ----- U: And, that was clear, because you'd have a demonstration get out of hand, black guy would be arrested, and his bond would be a hundred dollars, white guy, ten dollars. You think we joke. I: Uh uh. U: I can't accept that \"S'\\-1--v-.~\\-'°,.J end side one CR ST.A 3A side 2a page 16 sj o....c. e.e 1\"' t-' U: I can'1ei ther ten dollars or a hundred dollars, if you and I were whipping up on each other, I: Um hmm. U: The bond ought to be the same. Unless there's good reason, thats just bullshit. I: In, uh, you know, in, yet in 1965, when a few of you were celebrating the 400th anniversary, or on the eve, really, I guess it was going to happen in within a week. And, King was saying, from afar, out in Atlanta someplace, wherever he happaned to be, \"If things don't coG\u003el off completely there, I'm, I'm going to come back.\" And there were just some periodic, it was maybe a beating here or theTe, by a few of the rednecks, really, and not downtown, they happened to be around the peripheries of the community. But he said if things didn't calm down all together, that he would come back. And, what was significant to me, was that, Dr. Shelley, on the front page of the paper, The St. Augustine Record, warned both sides that violence of any sort would not be permitted, people would be prosecuted, they could count on a heavy fine, and a stiff jail sentence. U: person. I: And, uh, then the, I think it was either the next day or the day after, the sheriff, Sheriff Davis, also appeared on the front page of the paper, saying literally the same thing. My thought was, my question, I guess it is, could that sort of thing been done to Davis in 1964, to force him, the community forced him, either through Shelley, or through some other able white leader-ship, or was ag~in, the division, I guess, as you mentioned, CR ST.A 3A sj page 17 \"') - between this right-wing~ and the rest of the community so difficult? U: Well, the statements that you're talking about, in the newspaper, wAv\u003cL that was the second or third w4ftg of this thing. The tail end of it. F: Yeah, right. U: Had the first, uh, wave, or trouble been met with that sort of -/1,c;'r a firm statement, -44; was not tongue in cheek, and I'm not convinced it wasn't tongue in cheek F: Right. U: Because the \\_Y.!.1m1,.,,f}t.. Jod,e.+~ would reflect this I : kind of strong law enforcement. But you've got to remember that Davis was immensely popular at that time, and I'd been the prosecuting attorney, and had an awful lot of trouble with \"DAvts. qtvc_, J,.. e.,, /,.I ~ N'TC D --these cases in warn.i+l.g convicted, we got convictions, but I got good reports, and cases he didn't want convicted, the records got lost, the evidence _got lost. It was just a real horrible thing' and I had occasion to go to Tallahassee to XI! \"j~ c,J/11 ~$,) to Tv..lJ.5c.. 13n.y,,.\"'1- Jo te.Jl cA_~o~+ -ff,r:\u003et f1t1wr,r; . lJe had no staff here. A lot of people in the State's /l+fo._. ... q's office was not near 1 y as we 11 eq ui ppe d ___________[_ o.._s i_t:-=\u003eIJ'-- is now. And we were constantly after the sheriff to do his, \u003c.job. But, he had this great popularity. _._U~~;:__kJ_~~s------~ an extremely personable guy, with this element that I'm talking about, and he even had a in his life, ·he just had a magnitude. He sure was lax when it came to him personally. I\\- w '?\\ '\u003e 'j 1:h .. , .,.. _l)'-' I t' s 0 they t ottl\"d me _·0 _v.._\u003cl_\"\"_· ------- 9weiJ that ~ the popularity,it CR ST.A 3A sj page 18 was very difficult, if not impossible to control. U: Yeah, He, when he'd go in there and draw eighty percent of the vote, a group of businessmen can't go through and say, \"Look, now you'd better shape up.\" And in a very nice way, he, he wouldn't / t skr-J J-v '-1) and he wouldn't But he was eventually removed. Its a long time to I: I, I've heard that, that Mr. Wolf, when your father work~d sort of behind the scenes to try to ease things, uh, I'll ask your father this as well, but, I was wondering if you were familiar with~,~~/, any steps they took behind the scenes to. I know Mr. Wolf was particularly committed to the celebration of the quadracentennial, that he was very active in it. U: He was also in the position, along with about six or eight other \\,-If-) N\"\\-t ~t. {-...:\u003e men, that I had known, that had they *n-e-wrr, and I considered them leaders of the community. Guys that had been the mayors, guys that have been in the Senate, that had amassed personal fortunes, and were now letting sons and relatives, friends go under the table, on a day to day. These guys were your senior citizens with plenty of influence statewide and concerns ( = _ A nationwide. There's many things that -flt'! c..u1. •. U ht\u003c111c.Jor1\u003c \u003e ~\"'* c;; ':::::::\u003e didn't do, simply because they thought it was a bad dream, that it woald all go away. They didn't want to be labeled as a μ10ue17. 7 'l • ,, as a nigger-lover. Or to have a cross burned in their yard. And, as you look back on it, it seems simple or trite that that could influence the people. But it was really influential, it I l 1 ' was a big thing to them. Ta avoid theJ b ~G labe~f a nigger- ~ lover. ) CR ST.A 3A sj page 19 I: You~ ... U: I don~t know if your other interviewees have expressed that opinion or not, but I really think that, that, uh, these elements VvL 7rcA-~\"\"' \"e­effective leadership. Your have a tendency to quiet your I: Is, was it meant, was it kind of a small town nature of the U: I : \" -, ,_ community that sort of made it difficult to un-, say\\ take this -.. ·, · ... '·.\\ .. '-,·\", independent stand? I know in Little Rock, for example, there, the business community there, you don't hear much of, you never hear much about this. I guess its up to us historians to publicize more. The business community in Little Rock, which clt-J, is a much bigger community, ~take this sort of independent stand, I was wondering if it was sort of the small community of St. Augustine that made it difficult. ., (_,\\,_\\S: o\\- r~\\l\u003c.-L • I think so. Every, you know, its not ybur g~aper p!ac;_~_, its not the sheriff. Every job had a name and a face, and we knew this. Everybody is so well known, it makes it a lot more difficult. Just a reflection. I've seen the figures, but I was wondering do _;ik; you recall, kind of in a qualitative way, how bad business was hurt, in '64. U: I'm sure that '64 and '65 the :touri~t industry was hurt. The rest of the business, I was not aware \u003cif ttre _~___,'li--\"\"\"(_'~_er_c._T_ic._c._c._1-._A_\"'_i_f} I: Uh huh. :rr: The '65 are up:·here too, I mean the quadricentennial, it appears to me, never, as a consequence of '64, became what everybody hoped it would become. Is that an inaccurate reflection on my part? An inaacurate picture? It seemed like it was. U: I think that, uh, yeah. I think its trouble to a new program, CR ST.A 3A sj page 20 its true. I'll give you one example, and this, again, was \\!) o.. S l'l.-\"\"'P. \" { C1,·h zcr\"' s surf ace dancing. I was attorney for, im , Georgi a,-a ci ti~ei'l that was trying to get a federally G'\\: \"\"c ..... _ chartere:J savings and loan association. There was only one in the town. Only one savings and loan outlet. We had, it was a tremendous lot of red tape, but you had, eventually you had to go to Washington, h r\"'\"\"*\" ON c. h~Ar\u003c..JN6. ]-took about a week, you had to try a need and necessity. We did that, in '64, early spring of '64. Then, the hearing officer made his report, to the homeowned bank board, and they granted the charter, or denied it. We'd been denied once before, in '6Z. All right. We had a much better application, much better, the evidence looked much better, the need looked great. By sheer coincidence, the hearing officer's reccomendation, all of our briefs, old transcripts, hit the desk of the federal Yomeowned Pank fioard on July the second, and that was the same day, within a day or two, of the passage of the f.ivil Rights A.ct. And, he would deny it. Okay. And I, just, some years later, made the same application, and it was granted, and c,...1c. t.JC,~~ t-o\"\"'rl1tr-r,,,dtJ doing a great job. But tha~s not the point. The hearing officer later became a private attorney, and got out of the federal work, and became an attorney, doing nothing but savings and loan applications. And I ran into him in Atlanta, and he said, \"I've always wanted to talk to you,\" he says, \"You know, I favorably recommended your application in '64.\" And I said, \"Well, I'm relieved to know that, I thought it was a good application.\" And he says, \"But let me tell you, St. Augustine could ~ave not gotten the Red • l,.J 1~·.(... Cross in July of '64) lf you could wc:rs-h it off the map with a CR ST.A 3A sj page 21 hurricane,\" he said, \"The federal government wouldn't have given a damn thing, because of this \" And I believe that. Thats just a one person example. And I think it carried over into '64. For example, another example, have you seen the cover of the, I just happen to have one, did you ever see this ,• \u003es \"\"-~ of the (Jeographic? ----'~'------ I: No, I didn't. U: All right, this came out in February of '66. Its a beautiful section on St. Augustine. This is just a reprint. But, this fellow, Connolly, that wrote it, this assistant editor \that came down here, was here, and this was keyed to be published prior 0r coincide with the celebration, which would have been in September, '65. And because of the racial problems, and this being a non-controversial magazine, they held it out, and did not publish it in this-C'~ome of the greatest advertising I know of. But it did not hit the newsstand until some five or six Io.At.A.. . months~. But it was keyed to come out in either September or August of that summer, when your real influx of tourists would have been expected. I: There was incredible pressure being brought to fo eo....VL , here in one the . . . . L ll vie.Ii\"''{ \\ -.l ·1 d.tJNl.\\- -H-1~\"f\u003c '1 lt\t\u003e'-l\"\" r,- Ao,_,..:\\· I\\ . A~ A U: ~--,,,..,.,.~question. Thi~fbeautiful piece of advertising which was - I: Um hmm. U: Thats a 1m\"''\"'\"\"\"TL'I respected periodical. I: Rigfit. This is true. U: But somebody got to them, and they held that thing up, and I was CR ST.A 3A sj page 22 I was totaled. /.J- \"\"\",.,~ \"(,.l}c.1\"1-t sfo~.y. I: Well, after, after '65, has it, has there been any problems at all since I saw, I think, one, one egg throwing at a Easter parade, but those were, those people from Jacksonville who threw the eggs. I haven't seen any reference to any problems after, really, '65. U: Not really. You see, the college out here closed. I : U: Um hmm. - \u0026 They were from Miami. Um, Hail~went to Melbourne, or something. And there may be black leadership. There was some [,__ b 11wk:.sfj] brothers) [ v--bnNK. lrJ They, they They've moved away. And I think St. Augustine, uh, segregations have been abolished, but as far as your relationship with the black community 1+1~ v.\\__,,,,__\\- /i-ke d (;JYJS. There are no blacks with responsible jobs. Particularly 1,v -/~ L school, and _:::_5~~~\"'-~t~c::.......:========----~ I: Did it take long for the old relationships to come back, the harmony that existed before, even though it was a different racial pattern, did it take long after the chaos of '64 for those relationships to be restored again, in the community, the white community uptight and the black community as well? U: I think some, within the community. Still bear a label of having , or or tried to create harmony, or racial hi n l'it.!fl'- 1 ------- committee. Although I'm sure the~, there are some scars. I: Um hmm. U: I have coffee every morning when I'm here, in the restaraunt. CR ST. A3A page 23 Any of our friends who want to drop in, but its pretty well in the h~n\u003c?... same group. And this guy who comes in t~e, that, I didn't know this, but its reported that he was very instrumental in helping the media people set up and be in the right place at the right time. He was kind of a early v.i..:c~.y:.. Ran a ptr-.l.J /1~ house next door. Young fellow, attracted me. He's since become ,te_o... \"ift~ ~ •.• a w=t4:t~ and~ well established in the community. And he still bears that label of having cooperated, with not the blacks, but the media. I: Um hmm. U: And getting ready for them, set up. ~e SL.ow u_s ,w a.._ bad I: U: light. ~Z.01 •. + ~If /N -f-l..t- We 11, this, I appreciate your tolerance, a..J...tho.!!gh I have;...an4 \"vt\\'! .,f wanted questions, I can't think of anything else that might be relevant. You have anything else ... ? No, I'd just like to ask you some questions. c ()Yl-{'\\\"i~! Sure.~1 was talking to your son about some of the things that happened. Let me just say, I, I've been over at Florida for six years now, at the University of Florida, and I'm, I've been teaching history for seven years. I went to the University of North Carolina, thats where I did my work, and graduated from Chapel Hill, I: Did you? U: I d J ,...), .. ! ;[' ltl , f t~ ~! I: Well, I'd one of the war before that. Went to Vietnam before I .. U: Well, I went to war, first World War. I: Well, you went to a little better war, in terms of sense of play. CR ST. A 3A page 24 But, uh, I've done, I had, I had written one book on the, on Florida gubernatorial politics in the twentieth century, the study of the governor's office, the campaigns, and that sort of got me interested in race relations in Florida, because I, I always saw Florida while I was doing that work as a rather progressive IN state, and I wanted to find out why. And, and looking at it, I got interested in St. Augustine, and what happened here, and why it happened here, so, basically, I think tha~s what I want to talk to you about. As a man who has been in a leadership position in St. Augustine for some time, and knows it very well. I'd like to talk to you about that. I was wondering, why, when you came to St. Augustine, were you, was your family here already, or did you move? U: I moved down here. Moved to /e11..,AivTJ11vt1 ~~~~~~~---~~~~~~~-1-~~~ 1925. I: Did you come to set up a law practice here, or did you come as a r 4· k'f /II(_ t'l- ? U: I came as a --f-~_n_,_N~'ti...~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I: Where did you do your, your work, and where did you recieve your education, your legal education? U: Florida. I: At the University of Florida? Is that where you graduated from after you left Chapel Hill, and went to the war? U: No, I went to Florida first. I : · Oh, I see. U: I graduated ~~~~~~~~~~ live in '-f-A.rc.. Florida, then I went up to Chapel Hill. high school, and I thought it was wrong to CR ST.A 3A page 25 I: If what, could you tell me what St. Augustine was like as, as you were a young man here, as you lived here, you. U: It was very similar to what it is now; hasn 1 t been much change. /Jeoelt Of\\-'-- f f,op/-e_ . ... l.apf t since the, since the restoration I: When did the, when did the restorations start? Was it underway when you were here? w~k ttJ~l\"\"C:) U: No, it was not. It started w en )/e S-fft11-k ti , i-- \u0026~ t - /N T11)1c.,~r'1SSte \u003elnnl-t.f A- Co\"'m rr.sMJ ~ Wtt-F-, 1965, or maybe it was '64. I: It was sort of basically a small community. Were, were there .•.. U: Like it is now, except there's just C-._ tt v..J more people now. - I: Uh huh. Socially, how would you characterize it~ 'Was it, was there U: kind of a, was there a social elite in the city, or was it pretty open sort of city. 1;.,1 -ll\" Is a~;'\"' r er Well, there was a, there was a, it was different, -\u0026t le-a-st to h /Mt-5f- pnop,R+ION rt ft. I'. ~ We had a large po1,,.,__\\\"' or-'··· l~emen-tr-t1;~t--/1\u003efl(.),,...1 we.-YL\u003c- ' minorities. I: Uh huh. U: They feel fY\t.Jt')t ~11'1 fn-; ~ themselves, and when I: Uh, was the business community so, pretty much the leader, leadership of the community? U: No, everybody was about the same ~11 -ft .. t between, ~white people. \u003c:.. - leadership I: Uh hmm. Were the Minoc~ins any, did they~~~~- the city's leaders? CR ST.A3A page 26 U: I : U: - _,_.,,..-- some. fV'I IN' t't~ C, )l'I S Uh huh. What did most, most, where'd most of the ~-gs- C1*- t-reen on the economic ladder, have they held blue collar jobs, some blue collar I: Oh, uh, is, now this, is this the headquarters for the Florida ( n .R.?) East Coast, here is St. Augustine? U: Was, it was. I: When did, when did it move to Jacksonville? U: -Jacksonville. They still call this headquarters. I: Uh huh. They still call this the headquarters, though. I see. Uh, ~as, as you've been here, in the years you've been here, were there any racial problems at all, uh, prior to '64? U: Never. I: How 'bout, how long has that college, that Negro college been out there? That, uh, Florida Memorial College, I believe it was. U: It was here when I came. I: It was here when you came. U: It was for a while, I don't know _e_y_c-..__c_.~__,/7~~~~ I: Um hmm. Do you have any idea when one of the things, that seems to me rather remarkable about St. Augustine is that you have the Negroes and the whites living very close together, in some, some cases, they live on the same streets. There's very little, sort of) segregation in housing. Theres not kind of like a \"Negro . ( -~. town\" and a ,;1White town\", seems to me that both groups live very close together, if not next door to one another. I was CR ST.A 3A page 2 7 looking at the districts, and ... U: _?Ji_l_h1_....._f_l _~ --~-v_1 _~_(_~n_~_v_· ____ population has been here a long time. Um, across from the 01A.1t.. since it was \u003cA, school on out, and vrtty f-1,..,e.. 1-u {/...c1\"'- up there was wh.e-:re,-w·:h-e-cr-e-furtds--went...._ \"/)J-L~ QI,.., (,Nkl'\\ct ~~'\u003e {.,.i\u003c, NAVf'~ ? ..B.ut, uh, Pu. ii. ve ,.,,P-I: Was that~' or something? f,.._n_-1t~IQ.. U: No, p-er yea.Twas about uh, !'fi'('fif!S later. I: Uk huh. U: I: Was that, that, was that a Baptist school? f1,11..V'\\...'(t~'t P-e-r--y-e.a-i:. was f i 11 e d U: 1+-μf'\\S c I Yes, afi.4 a 13opl-t':;,f school~ /lr\"-' K.cno.JA'\u003eA \"'\"'(\\) o-..(!kh l\u003eI i .. n...t\"lr.r-CC~ c, m\u003e\"lN ,vl'H\"\"t 6niA'( C-4 t\"r1L=\". I g-rfrde chan-g.e. f,..JA:\u003e 11.J cJ\"\"\"-\"'i· ~ -,+- fl\\.t,.,.. 6nwr fc.f/ w.-.J wo.(- 'T Lfeotdb/1 F~M I : That was for an ------- U: And, uh, he was arrested for stealing I -1-/-..,..,-k ..up .tliere ,. JN-; Hr.lf.JLL•( C,or 1i,J o (' \"i»-- . Then they had another fellow nameJ. ~e. ON· And Pv...t\u003c..'Jf.r4t1- Lf 17 . Then there was~ L 117 t....i\"l'\u003e ,..,,{- \"\"- hr\u003c1.t Son__'\u003e-(.\"\u003cn~~ Ae \"\",,, /) +n.it:.J.. -J.v o...40/1H ~eG.P..e64/ltHV came, and /\"IA 1~ '( C'Yl~ was, he was um.,- -------- I: Was he in, he was ------ with that fellow /_/qi /Nv\u0026 U: Um hmm. I: Robert Hailing. U: Who was he? I: He was that dentist, theAfegro dentist. U: I, I don't.know him. Wait a minute. I: Yeah, these, the first one was CR ST.A 3A page 2 8 U: Oh, the first one was I: Yeah. U: I don't know much, much about that ~(_ll(\\w I: Okay. When did, uh, when did you become first aware that there was some racial problems here, that, that uh. u:w~~ ... /ri\"'l ia.lrn61'1i f!\\c.,..... 1\"\" I: Tlra t was ~i-d. l'Jo+ u r.-+1 t. In NG a.wv n.1+\u003c:1-'ll- P1ti\u003el:.l-t...,.,. \".('n.c • 1'J.!,,_c.. wasn't ~ I: Well, I was thinking of '63, uh, just to refresh your memory, when 'u~,' 'uh\\,. you had that white fellow, William Canard, who was killed while he was riding around in the Negro area with a shotgun, and, uh, you had the, the uh, Hailing, this fellow, this dentist Hailing, was,·went out to the Klan meeting and got hims~lf all beat up. That happened in '63. Did-they stop? U: Uh huh. I: Uh huh. Uh huh. U: I: So when King came, that was virtually good U: They had, they have a little ifcJi'J..,'t- lfl\"\\O~tN'I\" .t.~ _rHJ'l7H!N(, • a-1-o ng-t-1-me--runn1-n g ·. could walk down before, but When they, when they fixed it so pJ21mr1•~1e7 , we had a, a -±-trdy named I And, uh, he came up last I said, \"hey, And, uh, he uh, he said that he wanted _-h.._~V..J_o_~-~--======----~ 5 /en.Jf p,__,vf s;o ; IV I : \\Ai\"\" l.\" W\\\"\" U: And the perfectly good ------, he went out, and he started CR ST.A 3A page 29 the registration, and started with a. __ 7hri.-ct~c,Ji1 you cfeml).v t;,7n ~in.:\u003e.....- know. Didn ~ t do that much a..dmHH:-s-t ta ti on, I know. Now, if somebody had a, had a, started a demonstration here, I don't -~ know who~was. Bubba told me that the, uh, the NAACP, he said brhu. .# jhr_ he had ~ to it, and joined it. 'cause he thought it was a good thing for the people, and then they kept after his money, and he, he didn't give them any money, just paid his dues, and they broke his windows out. He had a real estate office then. He won't, I told him He went out and put this Some, some militant t-ft-i-rrg/VC..Gno d.dlit- I: Um hmm. U: Least tha~s what he thought, and I think so too. And then they had a demonstration down at the courthouse one day, /p.rt- bt.to'(Q..\u003c?... I : U: the judge. :r don't know why they were demonstrating. r~~hink thats what happened. Robbers in the courthouse singing He~\u003e t I some songs. The sheriff, I was made a deputy :t~ ()...,..r.i.. .. h...\u003c- ~-put him in charge of it, and he got all wild, and It wouldn't have been bad, lot of them were drinking to it, and I COUTS e this thing ~·)1- \\mJ; •. \\T \u003c; !) (,I'\\ J. wasn't no, no violence. ·um hmm. -\\\"~ t~ t..\u003e\u003c'..'~-(... but, there They're mostly child.rert n9w,}\\~children-from1the schoil\u003el, you know. . . I Perhaps I: Why do you think King came here? Why do you think Martin Luther King came here? I U:fi Well, at that time, we were, we were, it was war, we were about CR ST.A 3A page 30 to celebrate our fotir hundreth anniversary here, and they heard there's a whole lot of publicity in the paper for it. 1L- ~e.-..dr..,f ~11'7:\u003e appointed a commision of, that we we~e gonna ' C..\" ...._IV\\\u0026~~ JO ..J going to c~on, . AL \u0026rc1 if {!of.'L it, ~i-n-t.G There were three or four of us planning on pub lici ty. Um, I don't _f(_rJ_o1;-._1_ _= t-'-1l_ ~_{_,t~_•.;;..;'-\"';_;_·,'\"-+f-...{. \"'-\"\" \"'c'\"-'1;1\"\"\"c' .\"•\"\" ..:...~t_· -+-f_,--f-.~.\"'\"c'..:...~---- • r_, -~ I: So he was gonna take advantage of the four hundreth anniversary to get a lot of publicity. U: Get a lot of the publicity. Tha.t., s, that's , that was what I thought. I: Uh huh. U: Least there was any, they had a couple of parades, I went on the government parade, cc3c r ;J ~. CL~-1-o\"Mul;I., ()\\..,.-..__.Q wC\\.lr.l·v_.l tf · l..J~ik. _.;,;;:;:;;,..:::.._;\"-'--_=.;:;:;..;_,.__ ___________ __;_~:;;_;:.;::_:._.:.__ -io t of· people partying, and. . I: Was most of the trouble caused by outsiders, like King, and some~ Klan people from Jacksonville? U: I think practically all the Nc.c.ru.1e-s were outsiders. Now, I've been here a long time, and I know some .Negroes. Um, and I went out and sat out in the fi\"'-rvtv-.oetl-t and watche.d the parade, and I didn't see a s ingleANegro·- that -I-lQl:ew, not one. Now, there had to be, most of them had to be outsiders. And the same thing was true with the white, with the white ones. We were just a stagelwv~ - I .LI I C.ll.IA~fNC. c..,fl -/{,.1-{- W1ts1-i 4- /f;Jyf\"11,.J c / ;.1 Sf /J,,7 .... ·; 1'1N\u003cL 1 \".rt-'1 va-use:d::::fio-o-tfte::~ disturbance. I: Did the uh, did the white people in St. Augustine, I'm sure they must have been angry, at what was happening, did they try, did somebody like yourself, or Mr. Wolf try and get these people out CR ST.A 3A page 31 of here? U: Uh, well the, the uh, newspaper people went in there, and that boy, um, he, he's a young fellow, that doesn't really have much. ffe gave -J-/LL- ,.,~{v-\u003e~i'\u003e\"'f\u003e(\"t / favor~te reporters a ring. And, of course, all the demonstration went there,King went over there, you know, where, where you, publicity. I: Um hmm. U: And, uh, the whole thing was staged in the function. So you see, right over there. He tried to get in a car to follow me, you know, I: Yeah. U: But he refused to let 'em go. He was wrong. reporters \"r .',_,.,... I- 'C'\"'J .,..;. -··,/........., t •, v ...__ end of tape","Bi-Racial Committee -- Flagler Memorial Hospital -- John Birch Society -- Ku Klux Klan -- Murray High School -- National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) -- Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC) -- St. Augustine Record -- St. Augustine Chamber of Commerce -- St. Johns County Sheriff's Office -- Monson Motor Lodge -- University of Florida -- University of North Caronlina Chapel Hill -- St. Augustine Quadricentennial Celebration"],"dc_format":["application/pdf"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":null,"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/CNE/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":null,"dcterms_subject":["Civil rights--United States--Florida"],"dcterms_title":["Hamilton Upchurch, Frank Upchurch : Transcribed Interview"],"dcterms_type":["Text"],"dcterms_provenance":["Proctor Library"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://civilrights.flagler.edu/cdm/ref/collection/p15415coll1/id/1043"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":null,"dlg_local_right":["Flagler College is not the copyright owner for this item, nor can the College provide a copy of this item. Please contact the contributing organization to obtain a copy and permission to reproduce this item."],"dcterms_medium":["transcripts"],"dcterms_extent":["31 pages"],"dlg_subject_personal":["Upchurch, Hamilton","Upchurch, Frank","Colburn, David R.","Brock, James, 1922-2007","Bryant, Farris, 1914-2002","Collins, LeRoy","Davis, L. O.","Hayling, Robert Bagner","Kennedy, John F.","Kinard, William D., -1963","King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968","Lamonson, Droco James","Puryear, Royal W.","Pope, Noel","Stewart, Burgess","Wolfe, H.E.","Wright, Thomas A."],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"noa_sohpcr_b-0043","title":"Oral history interview with William Patrick Murphy, January 17, 1978","collection_id":"noa_sohpcr","collection_title":"Oral Histories of the American South: The Civil Rights Movement","dcterms_contributor":["Devereux, Sean","Southern Oral History Program"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, Mississippi, Lafayette County, 34.35675, -89.48492","United States, Mississippi, Lafayette County, Oxford, 34.3665, -89.51925"],"dcterms_creator":["Murphy, William P. (William Patrick), 1919-2007"],"dc_date":["1978-01-17"],"dcterms_description":["In the 1950s, lawyer William Patrick Murphy fought what he describes as a relatively understated battle against segregation. In letters, law journal articles, and in his constitutional law class at the University of Mississippi, Murphy argued for the wisdom of the Brown decision and against the states' rights rationale that many white Mississippians were using to delay integration. His support for integration put him under tremendous pressure from segregationist Mississippians, and after a four-year struggle to keep his job, he left the University. He describes that struggle in this interview, all the while downplaying his contributions to racial justice in Mississippi. This reflective interview will be useful for, among others, researchers interested in white southerners who sought to undo segregation.","The Civil Rights Digital Library received support from a National Leadership Grant for Libraries awarded to the University of Georgia by the Institute of Museum and Library Services for the aggregation and enhancement of partner metadata."],"dc_format":["text/html","text/xml","audio/mpeg"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":["Forms part of Oral histories of the American South collection."],"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":null,"dcterms_subject":["Mississippi--Race relations","School integration--Mississippi","Lawyers--Mississippi","College teachers--Mississippi--Oxford","African Americans--Civil rights--Mississippi","Academic freedom--Mississippi","University of Mississippi"],"dcterms_title":["Oral history interview with William Patrick Murphy, January 17, 1978"],"dcterms_type":["Text","Sound"],"dcterms_provenance":["University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Documenting the American South (Project)"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://docsouth.unc.edu/sohp/B-0043/menu.html"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":null,"dlg_local_right":null,"dcterms_medium":["transcripts","sound recordings","oral histories (literary works)"],"dcterms_extent":["Title from menu page (viewed on Oct. 24, 2008).","Interview participants: William Patrick Murphy, interviewee; Sean Devereux, interviewer.","Duration: 01:01:48.","This electronic edition is part of the UNC-Chapel Hill digital library, Documenting the American South. It is a part of the collection Oral histories of the American South.","Text encoded by Jennifer Joyner. Sound recordings digitized by Aaron Smithers."],"dlg_subject_personal":["Murphy, William P. (William Patrick), 1919-2007"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"ffc_crlsa_p15415coll1-1054","title":"Stanley Bullock : Transcribed Interview","collection_id":"ffc_crlsa","collection_title":"Civil Rights Library of St. Augustine","dcterms_contributor":["Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, University of Florida"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, Florida, 28.75054, -82.5001"],"dcterms_creator":["Bullock, Stanley"],"dc_date":["1978-01-17"],"dcterms_description":["Interview with Stanley Bullock, who became the Rector of Trinity Episcopal Church in 1964. He begins with his appointment to the congregation of Trinity how he began when St. Augustine was in the midst of the civil rights movement. He details the demographics of the church, how it was mainly upper-class citizens who were generally conservative. He states why the churches were reluctant to get involved in the movement, therefore when Mrs. Peabody attempted to attend services, she was locked out for fear of drawing the demonstrations inside. At the end he gives his opinion on King's involvement in St. Augustine and the impact it had on the city.","CRSTA 4AB Subject: Rev. Stanley Bullock 1-17-78 0 S: (tape in progress)·:.~. I had done it, say Mission, ,4ay St. Francis of 1\u003e· ('.•\\'·\\, .. ,. ,··~~ . Assisi and-.those-previ:ous, for three years. =r-\"''~ (. ~~\\!\"\".( } \"l And r.bec~me rector of Trinity Church in St. Augustine when Charles Seymour called me to be his assistant. Uniquely enough, the date of our arrival to take that job to start work, was the first of April, 1964, which was the same day that Mrs. Peabody arrived at the front door of Trinity Chur.ch 1 which was obviously a big moment. I: How did you, how did he happen to call you? Did he know you? He must have known you. S: Yes. I had grown up in the diocese. I was a product of the diocese. I grew up here in Jacksonville. This is my home. I went to public school here. I worked here for awhile before going into the service 'A and went on to the University of Florida where the ~anee and the Diocese are. My first choice was Pensacola ••. I: How did you ••• S: He had known me since I was a child. I: Really. Well, so there was, my next question was there any turmoil when you arrived but I (laughter)) obviously there was a great deal. S: Well, there was turmoil before I arrived. I, you know, as an aside to the whole thing, on the day, on the first of April, my wife, Kay, -:::, and I were driving from Pensacola to St. Augustine 1making the move, and we were about half way across the state somew~ere ,ar.ound, oh 1 I Dn -h:..c (' ! ·-'-\"\"' guess half way up around Madison, when we heardftwhat was happening in St. Augustine. And so I spoke to Kay and said'you know sounds like J CRSTA 4AB Page 2 CTM v,:c it's getting hot down there. You really don't have to go. We can 11 I go back to where we came from. She said1no, that's the commitment we made and we will go on.I I So, we weren 1 t about to turn around anyway, but the comment was made that maybe we ought not to go there. I: Did Father Seymour, had he said anything about any problems when you were considering the job? J: v·lv-:\u003e r· .. )c-rc. S: That there were tensions there1 but not, I don't think anybody knew f) to what degree they were going -------- I: Do you think that, did he mention any concerns within the church itself? S: Yes, I was aware that they were internal problems. I: Would you care to elaborate on them? S: Not greatly. Every clergymen has those persons in his congregation were some in that congregation that felt that way. I: Would you care to talk about the make-up of the church. I jotted down some points.,....economically, racially, philosophically? S: It's very hard for me to remember it, numbers specifically. But basically l '.}C\"- ~) the congregation rs made up of upper-middle-class to upper class in terms of the city of St. Augustine, socio-economic groups. It was an all-white congregation as it probably still is today. I don't know the breakdown but I suspect that it is. In terms of age, it was pretty ~!_lJ:;p-,1r1)~,;\\,\\ 1:;.f well distributed, representative of the community. yoti ttBGW St. Augustine is more given toward the older or retired age group than it is to the very young. And so representative of the community, I think it was. _J CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 3 Basically conservative. One or two more liberally-oriented lines but primarily conservative in all outlooks. I would not say ultra-conservative because I reserve that particular category for those that are much further to the right. They are basically conservative, politically, economically, religiously. Not terribly interested in change. Not terribly interested in being disturbed. Really, that's one of the facts about St. Augustine, I think in lots of other cities like that, that people gradually move to those area/where there is going to be less disturbance of any aspect of life. And they settle C\"' ~\u003e (~-c ;\\.\\ t :. \"- \\_ :· :· there because that is the case in dfe area. People who are looking for change, I'm speaking of any kind of change, go to the metropolitan '{'{' b \u003cl--' c_,,_ ~ CL \\ , :r\\ i L areas, where there is a great deal activit~ A:=greae dea-~more tension • .;;:,,r.\\- So, it's not unusual that St. Augustine should be that .k4il.d of community. I: Were they old St. Augustinians? Had there been there for several generations? 1r-1\\,-,\u003c;\u003e S: There were those. There were those t;ha.t: had been in St. Augustine probably since the period of the, traced from the age from the period of the British occupation there. Perhaps some who could trace it back as early as the Spanish, came out of a particular congregation. ~· But there were also people who were brand newf, Been there only a few months or a couple or three years}, ~?' If you have only been in a city like St. Augustine for three, four or five years, you are brand new. I: Was there, was the vestry pretty representative of the congregation in terms of economics, philosophy? Here's a list of the names that CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 4 I guess signed that resolution. S: Right. Yes. I would say so. As I look down it, I see one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, I see seven businesi\"'men. And of those seven -.../ businessmen, one, two, three, four, four of them own their own businesses, business owners. One of those persons is a civil service person working for the county. Another one is an insurance salesman) ~relatively successful one. A third one is a representative of a large clothing line, a very elite clothing line. middle-class economy/ certainly. So, they were representative of the .., ....... I see on here also a newspaper man u of some significance in this community. There is an officer in the National Guard. I'm not sure if he was field-graded at that point f\\-. ;::N ,,..,,~ -.N ( • .- but he was ~g toward that direction. ¥:o.u have also, one or two retired persons, represented here. And we have the man who was inde-pendent in terms of his financial structure. I'd say pretty much so • ..:E-~~ bn terms of age also, it was relatively well distributed. I: Was there any sense why you did arrive at the time things were really beginning to, were beginning to get tense? Did you sense that there was any of these problems would, I guess not you 1 but did you hear of anything from the congregation as a whole that they sensed that St. Augustine was going to be a focus of these demonstrations? S: Yes, this was, this was pretty much understood, all the way along because St. Augustine was in the process of developing a new board to celebrate itls four hundredth anniversary. And they knew at that '-' time that this was a natural focal point. '\\'\"' -\\T\u003e \\_-,c_ (£,.~·Le•.' ... '.., So there was that ~ of the city. There were some other things too that made St. Augustine .._,,~-,,,~\\'(}·! 1 . I in my estimation,-::;tl're foe~~ ~1 this whole thing. It responded as-±n. \\ \\ l (\u003erC..\u003c-ol'.\u003c(•., I the media.1 ;mfey_.,,.. 1\u003c \\·.l c\") • •;ri_ I expect the media here is the kind CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 5 that responds everytime. St. Augustine would do exactly the same thing each time. You could depend on it, the response. So, if you were going to stage a demonstration with the least potential damage to personal property, generally speaking, St. Augustine would be a pretty good place to do it. It was an enclosed city in terms of natural geographic factors. There was the bay on the east which closed off into the ocean itself which closed the natural boundary on the south. And there was a creek that ran up the west side which was a long marshy creek, a natural boundary on the western side of the city. And the access in from the north of the city was bounded by highway which actually split but there was only one basic highway. So, you had a peninsulaCsort of situation with natural geographic boundaries on three sides and a limited access at the top. So, you could keep your area well defined. It didn't spread out into a very large area. So, geographically, it was desirable. As I said/the response of the people and the law en­forcement agencies and everything else was significant, so you might note it. So, from that standpoint, it was the place that would be, certainly if you were selecting various places where they would get the best environment and response, St. Augustine was of that nature. And we anticipated that there would be some ~ifficulties. I: I want¥~ to talk to you about that response in just a minute but wouldn't, before that I'd like to talk to you about Father Sumo, what sort of man did you find him to be? How would you characterize him? -::r:. '\" J::ic .'.· ·:,-·· S: Oh, my. I must tell you first that·f,:fuunti the man1 \\r\u003c-\u003c'-\\k1 ''\"~ • I've known this man for years and years and I respect him f ~e was then and c;.:, .. Q is now, I suspect, a churchman of the older school that in this day j,rr time cannot be totally tn1derstood yet he was completely comnitted. And CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 6 as I suspect, he still is, to that fonn of the church and that ex-pression of worship of the Episcopal church that he had been trained \\,.... s ,.\\ • 0-.,_)C\\'-' '.';•} '~ ,(' \\ in and was his -hi \\...\u003e,,~ \\r~. . He was llllder great tension\\.. both from the congregation, members of the congregation, I should say, who were fC' ('~:T putting pressure on him because of the stand he was taking as a .pe-rsen-of the church. And this was difficult for him to live with because \\\"IC wr-:._5. these were the people~charged to care for. On the other hand, there were those outside of the St. Augustine situation who were viewing it through the eyes of the press and the media generally 1and they too were highly critical of what he was doing in some instances 1and they didn't help tremendously in supporting him. So here is a man who is caught between both of these pressure points , who in each instance was doing the very best he could as he sensed the situation upon the grotmd upon which he stood. So he was a man that was trying very - Q.y-\\J. _, hard\\~ with real sincerity and I think __ ' ___ _ and I did not ,·~·-... , \\ .. -:·/ v-J c... \\I ever feel that he was being,~you know, insincere in the things that ~e stood for and stood for the-wlricte --; ------ And yet, how ..0 much can --------- he was surely going to get Mlack _\\\\.,,..,,., ,,,.,._, - ,0~-J .:'.\\r• And this is a very debilitating kind of position ~\\ ,_-;t \\,\" r-,•';' ~ -~ ' to be in. He was a good and strong man, I think, through1~all of the situations that we encountered. And yet when the time came for him to receive a call from another parish, which he did, he felt that he couldn't take that call and relieve himself of ~;)'ov b-.c,,.J ,Y..-\u003c.._\\...JfQ,_.,,,__'.'.) here. He was not running from it but certainly when you have been through as difficult a situation as he had existed through, there comes a time when you can say1\\I have done my job to the best of my • 1 iJ L~ ( 1-- o~-\\-{,,,:.--r\\' -1 \\\"\"\"-(\"--'\\ ;ii) \"'I, ~ r ability and I believe this ------------· a s0\\, 6 man :::::- I // a good man --------------------~ CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 7 I: Did he have a good rapor with the congregation before this occurred? S: With individuals in the congregation, there had been some difficulty in the past. The details of that, I do not know but I know that there had been some difficulty within the group there. hC- 1: How long had~u been there before? S: I'm not sure exactly when he came. I can find out from •••• I: I can find out from him1 \\~-:ct''·-'C \\ ~-::,:• · S: Right. \\)~{) '.-.1 \\ ,\u003c._.:, { I..__.. OY\"\\ I: When-yott talk about the, one more thing about the church1per se, then we'll stick to the general community for awhile, you said something about the vestry and I wanted to bring it up. I jotted it down at the end here. But there was a characterization made of the vestries in general of the community and the characterization was made by one person that they were extremely conservative, very much active in such groups as Kiwanis, Rotary1 and also either active or behind-the­scene supporters of the citizerls council sort of thing which the f citizerls council really doesn't emerge as a formal group until late/ but philosophically· speaking, they were of this ••• S: I would say that that would be the case. When we are speaking of I: S: vestries in general, you are talking about the board of trustees of any of the churches in the community. Right. Yeah, I would think generally speaking that was the case. And again/ looking over these people in this specific group here, out of the one, two, three, four, five, six, seven,eight, nine, ten, eleven, S/.-.'( \\ fv D~I- .': :..I\\ _,.t.,,-.---... \\-\\:-.,u\\••\\ -·,- :- , \\ i• .\\- ~ ~, f A ( · IJ. _c.J\u003e --C\\{') c \\} twelve, out of those twelve menf I would say half of them fall in the I category of being specifically being sympathetic to th$s~ white citizeris council philosophy. The other six would have remained CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 8 . neutral by virtue of being \\IC\\Sl11\\c),,'-'• anyway/ or we have specifically ~Q ;~,,.( said no to that philosophy of the church. 7hat particular group, I su· 1·:-'i would ~f~ that way. I: This gives some understanding at least to why their response may be predictable, or the community's response might be predictable. But :S:-\u003c· , __ , \\ ,(-, there are some~~-t-herqualifications that emerge in my mind looking at the St. Augustine list. residential integration. There was a rather surprising amount of -lu._, There was y:move by the community itself, while not substantial in size, a move to voluntarily integrate ic-'s schools. And there was also the heavy dependence on tourism, something like 85 percent of the wealth in the community was dependent one way or another, on the tourist industry. What makes/in your mind, this ·response predictable, given all of these sort of qualifications? S: It's very hard to say because Atlanta, at about the same time, was undergoing a similar pressure. But the business community in Atlanta.6 recognized the fact that their business was going to be jeopardized/ and so very quickly during that period, Atlanta accommodated one way or another, so that this was quickly leveled off. In St. Augustine, (\\ I ' ·,I/ \u003c L r~u-\"- 1 1 \"'-1 ~'·' '\"'· ...... again we\\de-il~e lion a very small town and we are dealing with persons who are perhaps more independently-minded than those persons in a more metropolital area, who feel like a responsibility to and for the peopl? who are up and down the street. Or they feel like we are part c,:;, c~\"\\Cc0 ~ , of a whole group and we have got to hang together,} Many of the people in St. Augustine who are businessmen, were ~ independently~minded and they were sufficiently committed to what they believed 1 whether it be right or wrong, to jeopardize their businesses 1if necessary1 i\"n -fc.\\~ V··l c. cc, c,.. c ,;«J .. c~'-· order to win what they t-RGu.ght woaldbe ef some significance to them. CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 9 And therefore, rather than giving in to the pressures, they would \\/'} C \\{_ :~. .,,-..~\"\")( ( t\"\" ·\"'\\ °\"~ -J .. c.. . C~O t'i (I • I I oppose on each occasion that they· , c.t. 1'\\- \\'1 t,.._ \"', That s why I say that it's predictable. That is one of the reasons that \\~I'.-!.~ I say it. And the predictability who couhi be right because as the sunnner wore on, and we moved on down into June and July, August months, of course July was a watershed-time because by that time ~f.'1v:: .... I the Supreme court had made a kind of. decision concerning the issues that were at stake in St. Augustine. But there was still an after-wash of the response and the resentment to response.· We had had the first wave of the activities in the spring. By the time we got down into the summer months, it was a slightly different kind of pressure J.-Lt.. by that time. And the pressure was not so much~more·localized people involved as it was the continued resurgence of people flowing through the city. This sounds like an oversimplification 1 and perhaps there was some degree a feeling that this is the year b~il. it may be )-tnat -r\\~ (. ( th1\"l\"t all of us should be involved in some way in this) f-'lld to take our stand and show our position. And the way we could do it, is to come to St. Augustine and do our thing. I: Whatever side you were on. S: Yes, certainly. Exactly right. And that is important to recognize. j ' 'i.) \u003c)r . It was not ,Y'Jf!Sr Dn'~ ';\u003e\\'2,v,i'.f,,\\f';.'~,,,.~(.':) '-~\" And from one side however, t \\ .. -, -\\-.I '\"·'\\ a~d I have no documentation to support this, I have rumor and comment :i~-,·'\u003c from people~who I think knew what they were talking about by virtue of the fact that they were involved to some degree. This was the same c,__S time we were preparing persons to work in the Delta ministry. ,.D6 you I recall 1that activity in the lower Mississippi area. It was a time for r c \\f:\\~~,, ~oter registration and things of that sort, which were highly resisted 1- -- ---- --------------------------- CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 10 -~·~,{'\\ r;·· (_ - ~-,, 1 I,, \\ ' ., ,~ \u003c•-\" ( ..,. ~ ., in the Mississippi area. And then -fr.omf-\"'\u003cl~::\u003e,-c_, :-:/ · and other places in the south east of that nature. I: What, for a second, what was the Delta ministry/ .O'Y'c::- ,.r 1·-1 ~ S: It was primarily a ministry of administering to the black community in the agricultural and, it's very vague1 I must be honest with you. I don't remember the details. I remember the title. It was a thing that was a concern at that time to both LJ,'r('·v~. But young people particularly who were going to be participating in this activity in the Mississippi delta ministry, delta ministry project, somef as I understand it, and this may be rumor, so if you use this, you had better trace it through that I'm giving you fact, not fiction. They 1~\"\\'} \\ \\ \" ;1': (; lt..,.'.( ).'\"\\~\":'' -th I !li!gfi the St. Augustine situation where they could predict what was going to happen in terms of demonstrations. In other words, if we go in .to try to be seated in a white restaurant, a quote\\'white restaurant~ we are going to find this kind of response from the owner1 \\.,...... who would in turn do this andAturn, the police department would respond in this way and we will go through this experience as we go through the booking and through being charged, etc. etc., then we would be c C1~···r~i ... ~ released on bail. And bond is put up by someone else) .that we 1•\"- \u003e-. ~c \\ \\\u003c\" 'C\u003e\" VH-\\,-., to this other situation having already experienced the kind of activity here, that we may well experience out here. So that we will know how to deal with it here. Here, it is,no control. Here and in I . some other \"'\"~i c_;\\,,, ,_,c,, because of various things that I talked about .--\\?earlier •. So, in a sense, it was the ----------------- ---------- somebody has a sub-machine gun and starts shooting at you. ____________________ That was exactly the s~-. kind of thing that some participating in se~er -------- f''.\"\\\\'\\'~ \\• c. So, this was also going on while ------------ CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 11 That may not be so. But the people who came ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ in the black interest. I\"- (Tape is malfunctioning) (Tape side 2) S: ••• regular students there for which might hft\"ll\"e possibly have been other persons coming in)al]tt residing at the college and giving the impression of coming from the college in demonstration routes is totally impossible for me to determine. So, I really can't say. \\-.\\-\u003c-IC.. In terms of the older black community, I think there .w;as a portion of the older black community that were supportive to this;though they may not themselves have been specifically present. Indeed there were some individuals that were there. And they were highly visible and everybody could see them, everybody knew who they were. But .. \\/·v. ·t- I generally speaking, those were the same persons whi~h you saw on each occasion. In terms of the whole community, I could not say how many really were there. Demonstration-wise, when there would be a gathering of the ~ community at one of the black churches, the black conununity, I suspect a great part of the black community was present at a gathering such as this. If for no other reason then, that there was as much pressure put upon an individual in the black community to participate on the side of the black community as there would have been and was on behalf of those in the white community to press for support to those who were opposing the action. So, I imagine that there was some participation by everybody but in terms of being in the front lines, not as much as some think. That's an assumption. I do know that in terms of efforts being made to reduce c,,o r 1 _,,.{_, , ;;·\u003c--- ~ . '--• ';\"-\u003c thefblack clergyAAparticularly noticeable in their effort to bring about some sort of reconriliation within the community/and the ones with whom I had any contact with, were CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 12 very concerned·W1-:fh the community as a community there, not so much in terms of it as a focal point of activity for a national group. But we live here. We have people here. What can we do to, all of us together, I: Was there any effort by King to contact the white churches to try to get them to support the demonstration, protests, or try and bring about a reconciliation? S: Directly by King, I could not tell you. I had no contact with King per se. Some of the other people who worked with the SCLC-? I did ..J.,f/ talk with, and I ha~ difficulty remembering exactly who they were, at this point. Of course, at the moment, I thought I would never forget them. But at this point, they are gone from my mind. I'm sure I would remember them if their names were brought up. I: There was Shuttersworth and Jose Williams and C. T. Vivian and Andy Young. Those were ••••• S: Well, Andy Young, I had known from earlier contact because Andy had also been involved to some degree with some christian education literature which the Episcopal church had used. And I knew people who knew Andy and I knew Andy through that kind of contact. There were some others also. None of whom you have thus far mentioned, that were really significant as they related to the Episcopalchurch. I: I see. S: I cannot remember their names. There was a clergyman. I believe he f- ,'::I l )r;'\\::: was from ~iags:;;::(t:)-tnd his name goes out of my mind /but his color and facial contours were such that he could pass either way. And he did so on several occasions. He was present on the occasion when Mr. Seymour CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 13 saw to it that som~~ demonstrators were seated in the Episcopal church. This particular man was with them. I But, no) Jo my knowledge, to my knowledge, remember that I came late on the scene and there may have been something occuring that I knew nothing, you know, about, I: Why were the, one of the things that strikes me about St. Augustine, and I don't think this is atypical but I would like to hear your ..\\--le ..... \\ , .. I response, ~ churches seemed reluctant to take a stance'? Now whether it was reluctance or it was just no real thought about taking a.~ position!I'm not sure of. But was it reluctance or was it •••• S: Yeah, I think I understand what you are asking. You have to understand the political structure of various denominations of values in order to really grasp this. The Roman Catholic church is made up of members of its congregation who are under the leadership of a priest, who is under the direct guidance of the bishop. And the authority structure .f.{, of the Roman Catholic church is very intense in top. The bishop says,~ Rome says, the bishop says, the priest says and the people will respond, or else. That's one polarity. The Roman Catholic church is changing that kind of structure in present day) fut at that particular. time, that's the way it was. At the other end, you have the free churches most epitomized/I thinklby the Baptist church1generally1in which the authority structure is the congregation. And the congregation has the power to manipulate their clergymen. It's a very strong power to do so. If they don't like what he does, he is out. And they will get another one, or they will raise one from their ranks. So, the Baptist church is one polarity and the Roman Catholic church is the other CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 14 polarity in terms of power structures. Then you have the Methodist church, the Presbyterian churches and other churches of that sort which really are very like the Baptist church in the sense that congregational authority seems to be more intense. So you take the major protestant churches in the community and you see that their group -;esponse is going to be what the group feels. l~he group feeling was resentment or being threatened) ?hen that congregation is going to make their clergymen respond that way. If he responds otherwise, they are going to get rid of them. So, he's tied in a sense. I think .. ~\"-~ that you can easily seet,as a community, the white community was being greatly threatened by the~f blacks in the church. It has nothing to do with theology or ethics in that sense. But it.has everything to do with power of authority of the body. In the Episcopal church, we have the congregation and we have the y'estry which is made up of ''(')It !JIP\";_t persons who .are ' t ,...:),,J but there is also sort of an ~ - . , I • I \\~ v·\\ r~·.t:.t'\"--. overlay of the Roman Catholic structure wher.e we have the bishop and the priest and the authority from on high as well as authority coming 'I\u003c.\\\u003c; from below. So, the clergymen)generally, .i;;s. caught in the middle in that sort of situation. But most clergy in the Episcopal church operate with the general authority coming from the top not from the bottom. So as I was saying/ the Episcopal clergy ~~\u003c.~.I ~of~: responsive to the authority of the diocese, the bishop, than he-was generally to the congregation or to the }lestry • I: Can I get you to describe what happened, the turn of events within the Episcopal church, within the Episcopals? S: Within Trinity, at what point? How do you want me to pick it up? CRSTA 4AB CTM J\u003eage.15 I: Picking it up from when Mrs. Peabody entered and I think it was on the 31st, or the first of April and then on the 13th, the 12thAof April, e~, five blacks attended Trinity Episcopa1 5 Father Seymour says that the only thing that bothered people were all the cameramen out front, ;he blacks came and just like everybody else, took their seats, nobody paid any attention. Bishop Rusk ordered -- all churches in the north Florida dioceses to admit anyone who wishes to attend services. S: This is so difficult for me to reconstruct and I've just been very sure that I do what I do generally and~hat is embellished fact is fiction. So if you find that/please recogni~e i~ t~~~ ~~~-- 1 ~d incidentally, I want to take an opportunitY~,~~r·sa; somethingfwhich f\",\u003c:\u003ef-C '/Dv 1 '\\ I w-Wh you wot:t!i:d pick up before you leave, and that is I have been quoted in several articles, it was originally in Redhook article, which \\~h\\'l-h was later picked up in cl(e writings)you have here, in which I made a statement concerning the '' ~\\\\'i\\!C,Q black f'r'-t\\ h 11 in St. Augustine and the image of that. And that I was giving that particular ~v-(~-Nf..) interview to this young lady~from Redbook1and I don't remember her name, I don't even remember the article1but in the conversation, she asked me about it and I said the image of the ~~eloved :Black man'1 (~[) etc., when it was printed, the quotation marks were not there. I: I see. S: And it makes all the difference in the world\";' how one understands it. If you read it straight or if you see it with the quotation marks because I was speaking on an imagery and no1using this as a specific title for a group of people or an individual. And each time that -- ________________________________________________________ _J CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 16 1.S: has been picked up, it~~ been picked up since~ out of context. D~'-~/, I: JJJ{?, was that in '64 that article was published? S: It was '64, J65, it'~ carried in several of these and I will indicate I: S: it to you later on. ic.\"-1 O~, I'll go through it with you. \".1dt10.\") But,· hm.::y:iug back to what you are saying, let's go back first to the p,,\"'-·\\\",\"~{)' I':;. day of Mrs. ~eeples arrival. I will tell the story to you as I under-stand it, not necessarily as a fact that occured. I was not there on the scene 1 so I do not know. But as I understand it, on that particular day 1 which was the first of April, 1964, Mrs. Peabody had been in town for a day or two or three with other persons. And her presence was quite notable. The national press was aware of it. She was a signi­cant person and therefore kept alot of A\\Jsi. ,·,., _J~~ o.'.J: And on that day/ which was a Wednesday, t-~~:e :~; .~~~mally scheduled .J.~ n.fYf!fft service at, I believe it was, about~ or ~1 o'clock, I'll say lO o'clock in the morning. That was a normal service. It was in the chapel. Generally, there might have been four, five, six people attending1not a big thing1 (Vv\",Q I · but a regular week:=day service. }l'arly on that day 1 when CharleJSeymour came to his office, he received a telephone call, I'm now out of sequence, but you will get the elements. He received a telephone call from if v p ~t-...was'\"\". New York, I think it was New York, wanting to know what he was going to do when Mrs. Peabody integrated the church that morning. He had no knowledge that anything was going to occur. He really didn't know what he was going to do)if you will, at that particular instance. This came totally out of the blue. At the same time 1 roughlY; that he was receiving that kind of phone call, the national news broadcasti!ra on t.'b:e\"'radio, was announcing the fact that that day at a proposed hour CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 17 ~· -\u003cJo·C·,~ of ~-0 or 1i o'clock, Mrs. Peabody was going to integrate Trinity Parish Church of St. Augustine. Lots can be said about that whole ,;.., k\u003c\"'' ,,-f ---­activity and the statement and everything else}because prior to that time there had been good communication or communication, good or bad, there had been some movement back and forth between the black commun­rJ \\ ity and Trinity Parish ----------------~--~ So the people of the community had had comfortable interaction) but now she was going to do this and it was going be blown into a biracial thing. This was heard in the city by certain members of the parish and the community who all rose up in resentment to Mrs. Peabody's coming down and she is going to do this. So tension began to mount and telephone calls began to be received by Charles Seymour. And ''what are you going to db 1 sort of thing. I don't know what his responses were to these phone calls -t0) and that's really not material. But it is my understanding\"at some t '! \\a ~. ~.~.'.('( ·-~-\\--'(__., point, -becarrs~trf regular hour of service, there was a group of black young people moving east on King Street/coming from the direction of the college; whether their intention was to go to the church or to go shopping in the drug store, whatever the case, totally immaterial, it's my understanding that there was a group moving east on King Street. There was a group of white young people, youths, whatever you want to call them, who had gathered in the park across the street from Trinity Paris~ and there were some individuals who had heard the radio broadcast and were concerned was sort of around the front of the church to sort of protect the church from anything that might occur. It is my under­~,... 1-d cJ so fr' .. 1. ;, '·~ standing~before the hour of service, either the sheriff or the chief of police land now I have forgotten which individual was involved, but some­one representing the civil authority of the city, came around and said CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 18 :-,,\\ to Mr. Seymour that we have this group coming down King Street, we have this group in the park and this situation seems to be drawing toward a confrontation. Do you absolutely have to have the service -(II today at that particular hour, given these elements. It was my under-standing that Charlie said'-\no, under these circumstances, we don't have to have one~ If there was going to be some sort of confrontation, it would be wiser not to.11 That was the decision he made. The member of the;{estry at that time locked the doors of the church to keep people out so that they would not come in. I: Were you able to do anything else? S: No, no. Not at this particular moment. Honestly, I don't know that. 1 It was not done by the direction of the ------- It was done sort of spontaneously by this person thinking that this was the better way to handle that situation. When Mrs. Peabody arrived to attend the weekly service, the church was locked. The ~~immediately pick. ed \\ \\ \\ ~! ,-..~\"t: (.\\ 1.' \\, this up and it was broadcast around that Mrs. Peabody had been FOf'61~Y locked out of church. So, this is the way things built around that ~l:\\_..1c.).,,,_( paF~tHri±a\"t event, which became quite a significant event as I look at it from the inside as being part of the staff that was there and later ~'\\L'\\) there, I can more easily understand~ given all the elements1that the man who made the decision had made what he felt was the best decision in that particular situation. From the outside, it would seem as a capitulation and going along with and not standing up, etc., etc •• And it was as a result of that that '1, ----------------~ ------- just floods of them. And women went back there and speaking of him as less than a priest of the church, and just really biting Only one or two or three in support of him to the degree ' 5xJ•0'-- ,/; '\"\" \u0026.:!,--::,~-\\ I of saying'Charlie, we don't know really what is going on'but we are I J L CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 19 concerned for you and are praying for you and we hope that you will be able to handle what ever is going on. Those were helpful letters. Most of them were just very bad. Now after that time, for a period l.u .r of time) and again my memory does not serve me well, for a period of time, perhaps days or weeks, Sunday's particularly, we would have groups come, I say groups, I mean more than two or three, usually less than, the groups of specifically black persons coming seeking br' entrance to Trinity Church. They would 3-e-i~ each instance be turned o-S away by the persons who at the door 'We\u003c!.'e ushers. Those persons were almost invaribly members of the~stry. Because they had determined that they were not going to receive into the church persons that were specifically there for the purpose of demonstration. Then at some point, again I,,~ I: Was the clergy aware of that, that was going on? That the vestry was S: trying .•• ('t) .N'.6..~. ;. . not always,- because, :::.... to ~J.~/ to other people this is something that is very hard for us L-. '( ~ ~- .. ,,'·-:·-·,I that we were not always, we wer:a-not-always at the door, we were in other o-c\u003c•:;.-cO I seeking admission:'! we weren' t places. And when the persons)to,coming) there. And so recognizing this, we decided ) . ' wer\u003c '10 \"''\\ ··:·-a and determined that at a given time we .w£li:ti:d be there. So that when people did come in, we would know. At about the same time that this ~~ decision was made, this priest ~ whom I spoke ~e earliel~~ who was a black priest, I: I think I know who you mean. I have forgotten his name as well. I've seen that priest. 0~) S: Well, he came to the parish a day or so early, in fact on Friday CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 20 perhaps, and he said:I am being requested to lead a group here:' And so, we tried to negotiate 1 and the negotiation was orally to bring a group and you will be leading it and you are a priest of the Episcopal church. The second thing is to make sure that the persons whom you bring,,Jiftwit~ you are Episcopalians. Don't bring people of other persuasions but make sure they are Episcopalians. Thirdly, don't bring so large a group that the church feels integrated) but a group( yes 1 but not so big a group that we can't feel that we can control the situation. And bring them to the early celebration of \\-k_ 'C..vJ,,c-r~~~ \"'~ not to the later service. We ~ three services. And I think the hours were 7, 9: 15 and 11•, it may have been 8, 9: 15 and 11. They were roughly spaced like that. In the earlier service, there would be fewer people present. But the request was that they bring them \\\\ 0-JI ( ,~μ-' to that service. So 1 at that time, he said1~, I'll work it that way. 11 So, he said,110K, you'll be at the door to see that you get in~ And ~~-(.___'l(_t-.}~cd that Sunday morning we were at the door and everybody kne~ A:hat +Q..e__ ~e:\u003ec, something was going to happen and they help us at all. Later in the morning, \\ 1 \\I ......... didn't show up. This didn't O\\.)(\u003c,-d\\K \";-, we got}a call from the same man, who said:::he •·ms really sorry that I did you that .) V---l- s~1 way but;\\ \"the ) people down herex won't go along :Wit~ your control of the situation. ·we' 1 c.- \\....\\€.-' ('.\u003c \u003c\\\u003c'\u003e• •\"1 _ .. '\"\" ¥ea ar-e. in control and 4t we elerr'\"--t do it the way we want to do it and you don't tell us how to do it. We are going to be there at 11 o' pitA.S.orcJ ''/ clock JI Well, I wasn't terribly pleased(\\ because I thought that we had stuck our necks on th..,.e line and we didn't feel that we had gotten a decent responsex By the eleven o'clock service time, I think it was the eleven o'clock service, it may have been 9:15, it was very obvious that something was about to happen because not only were we ~cJ':,,!;. at the front door but so were the television coverage ~ which were L CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 21 parked right across the street from the front door,' of the church and that's not much distance. ~\"'-~ And the cameras were out and the news people were all ab:m:rt\" and there was much todo. l.ja,.) k\\. 1c.J t 'C'\\ I;.., \u003c;;;-l~Jl.,.. The Xestry were.-the:r~in front of the church to protect it. And at about service time, just +lt,, ~#- ~ -~·~A.· as we lfere s~s•t te service, this man and his persons, followers, did arrive. They were stopped at the sidewalk door under the steps, I should say, the sidewalk door, by members of the J\"estry. Mr. Seymour •I 1_ ~\\.-,1\u003c.I.'\"' \\L.-rv and I were standing in the lobb)j ;ft the right of the entrance way of the church and back, set back somewhat, so we could see what was going on. But as soon as we saw them arrive, we went out to see what could be done. Father Seymour went over to the gate to speak to the)festry and asked me to go to speak to the television people. So I did that; \\\\ I went over and spoke to one or two of the cameramen and said1 gentle-men, we have a very difficult situation here and you are exposing this \\C.'S and making a big thing out of it and it really compounds the difficult1 ~.\"'~(.c ..l;ha:t:-we have and we would appreciate it if you would move off of the situation so we can handle it and do what we can with it.Y But I rem-ember specifically that one of the cameramen turned l to me and help up '..-'t·'l\"....r his camera and said/ 1:hftt \\\\ we -~ you to know that S\\\"\"'\\::lot· I 'h~ the most important, valuable footage I have ever taken in St. Augustine in this thing right now and I'm not about to put this camera away~1 which didn't help a thing. That was ,;V'f'..t...\\\u003c.{1 ~- \\ ~~-'--~~~~~~- So at this point, I walked back over and joined Mr. Seymour who was at the gate and he was still trying to persuade and he finally decided ~~~~~~~~~~~~- simply push through and move the blacks into the church, which was what was done. When we did this, some of thefastrymen who were there as j,ic;t ushers, threw their bulletins on the ground and walked off. And the CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 22 blacks were taken into the church and seated themselves at a back pew, the first one they came to when they got inside of the church 1 and they continued to be present there through the service with no difficulty. I say no difficult)/ and I'm not sure if they had difficulty at that ~c.... t...\"'\"\"- _, r.···.c~._ .. ~_?··\"',.._c\"? .. ,.,..\"\".u·;\"._(\"'t .. 1· ,.t;· ... _, o ... ' J \\..(;.._,.., f ·•· ... -~ ~ ~ \\ • ' i r \\.'.) l ......... ,. \\ I ~ time) \u0026fi:=ti\u003cQS-..' 'fire, mayi hue because at some •••• (end of tape side 2) (Tape B side 1) I recall that at some point, some black persons who came to Trinity Church to worship during that period were egged as they left the church and walked the rest of the way down 10th Street. Whether they were egged as a result of having been at Trinity Church or whether they were egged simply because they were black walking down the street, is something that I'm not knowledgable of but I know that that incident occured(so that I'm reluctant to tie it in but in some way my memory says that there was something to that. I: Did the festry start meeting then privately or did they •••• S: No, the ;/estry did not meet per se privately. Right after that, Mr. Seymour came to Jacksonville and stayed for a few days with the bishop. '.l,- I stayed in St. Augustine. The.,,v'estry met but I was present at the time \"1_ ---- I: Did the bishop, was he totally supportive of Father Seymour? S: Yes he was, totally. And there is a letter which I think you have access to which was from the bishop to the /es try. The,»'estry finally \"'00). called upon the bishop'sAoffice which is a term from canlfon law which / '-.J says that if there is a difference of opinion between a;/estry and a congregation anror the ;festry, it seems to be unable to be solved, then the ,festry or thej{ector may call upon the bishop's good offices i 1-C' to work it out. So, they choose to~:~~i1 upon the bishop's good office\"1 CRSTA 4AB Page 23 unquote. And Bishop West crune to St • .Augustine and brought with him that letter, which he had intended to mail. But he brought it with him to the~stry meeting and personally read it to the;vestry as they were gathered there at the ;festry meeting. It was a stunning letter because it contained certain phraseology that had not been heard in quite some ,u.s-CA time, certainly none of these men had ~xpected to hear it and that was the statement that in the event things did not change there was a very good chance of,·exc{\u003ennmmication;' · That was something that they had not figured. So, there was IIU1Ch discussion at that point conceTiling what had occured, why they were distressed, all of the things that surrounded it. And Bishop West still held his ground. And finally, at a later point of the;V'estry meeting, some people suggested that perhaps it would be best if they simply resigned from the Xestry. And Bishop indicated y..LS1 oJ. ic.. that ~cu I~ \\.;..\u003c.. accept~ ~' that he would accept anyone's resignation who wished to make it. 1here upon, three men immediately resigned. And since it seemed to be snowballing •..•. I: Do you remember who resigned? S: No, I don't remember exactly. (tape cut out for some time) 0 ....... I: Basically what I want to ask is you took over and you had participated tt S: the side of Father Seymour and you had pushed or physically pushed past the Yestry to open the gates so that Styles, I believe it was, and the people with him could enter the church and partake in the service. What happened? What was the situation like to you? ,\u003e.,J....t{.\"\" ·~\" ,_.;;.,, Well, again that's hard for me to remember. I remember considerable hostility and yet between myself and Charles Seymour1 because I was new and he had been there for a long while/ ~e had accumulated a certain runount of hostility on the part of some people. I guess I was the least a.S ' 4' \\ .. .,.\\0 CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 24 ;/ bad things. And so I was able to continue and administer the affairs of the parish when he was not present, at least when he continued to be rector and obviously I continued to minister my -\"' -------- to support him. I: When was that approximately? When did he leave? S: It seems to me that he left to go tb New Orleans either in October or November. We had a terrific hurricane come through New Orleans and did great damage to the city, a-.\".'. . \\ Nu\\\\ I think it was in November --------- But he had just gone to New Orleans when that occuted. So I remember that distinctly. So it was rather early in the fall. But he definitely called in the late sunnner _c:Nv-_.._ . Q--4-._. __. .... .\"\".,._) 'o I knew b 'I .£,rY D 0 c .) L-\u003c~ :iJ£' the ttte sUHIIIler that he was going to go. The question then was how ('. ........ was Trinity Parish to be administered. The best thing always was for ,.tll'~ --: assistant to also leave when the rector \\_cpvc;, in order ----------~ n that the ---- may be changed for the next time ,..., , ----------~ This particular case, though, I was there and they were '(Y\"V' tl;i.cl.. accepting me. ~ they were accepting me for the reason that was sent to me by a clergyman in the diocese who is still here. And I trust he said it in jest but yet at the same time I knew enough about the situation to believe that maybe he was right. They were considering calling me later on to be rector. And this clergyman said, \"Stanley, those people really don't want a priest and you are the closest thing to nothing they could find\". And he may have been right. (laughter) But what ever the case, \\...,/ during the period from Charles Seymoursgoing to New Orleans until the following March or April, during that interim period, the director of the church was the foshop of the .Diocese. I was simply there as the priest-in - charge. And Bishop West asked me to stay there in that capacity. His specific words( as I recall the best I can rere, \"Stanley, they have CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 25 allowed you to live with them this long. See if they will let you live with them a little longer.\" And so I continued to take services and shared the ,..iestry but only as priest-in -charge and not as rector. And t'bkgan picking up pieces. In the spring, they called me to be rector. To be very honest with you 1 and I am being honest, I did not want the job. I had come from G0\\f ~.t,7;\u003c- to be an assistant because I really didn't want to be the '1- I wanted somebody else to make the decisions and to take care of angers that would come out of it. I really didn't want it. And wi\\l when they offered me the job, I still didn't. I was insecure and I continue~ to be insecure even until this day. I really just didn't want that kind of responsibility. And so Bishop West came down to-St. Augustine and said, \"Stanley, they let you live for a year here and you are of the people1 they kno~1\"\"you lived here in south Jacksonville and you are just as cracker as they are;\"'''\"6-.)\u003eJ~~-;.!: !'-c:. rv~r-.tck.o.s-t~v_ 1, c;,,-c. and you are for the same kind of prejudices that they haveJwhich I will speak to you in a few minutes, I think may be helpful.* But they lmew this. I 'S\u003etr-,dltD \\l So, if they ~ (-.::. wanted me to be rector, Bishop West thought it Wffi:lld~·be- a good idea. And so I accepted -------- My full tenure there was seven years. During the early days, when I was still, before I was, no 1 it was after I was rector, no,r beg your pardon, during the early days, when I was still priest-in-charge ~l-\"l;\\.\u003c.- and ~Seymour was still there and we were having all the difficulties~ we were having, the tensions were very high. And on more than one occasion, both Oiarles Seymour and I received verbal threats by telephone to our households or to ourselves personally. And as I look back on it now, \\ I' ) we~ r~ Sr;,.~~c- .J\\:) ~-~v~\\...,. I really didn't think of it as anything because of in the instances that I recall, I knew the people who were calling . .And on one occasion, I received a call that said, this was right after the .-------------------------------------------------- CRSTA 4AB CIM Page 26 \\....r~t-~-· blacks had been let into the church that on the occasion that you all let ~Q ~.;-v r•.Y 0 '.co the blacks into the church, it was so and so and so and so and his b-o,1 ~;;. I Next Sunday, it's going to be so and so and so and so and his boys and it's not going to be the same. And that telephone call came to me in the evening. I was rash in thinking ~ what I was doing; s\\-.ov \\c~ ~.,., . ic kc. f1 ~. 1-r • \\ ke .• \\\\\\:.c l\\,.\\D0\\.\\'N \".? ,l:':'\\v-it'-S't~vr\u003c1(\\, And so I told the caller that he had better bring his boys with him because up until that time, he had been dealing with clergy who were connnitted to non-violence) but I was not connnitted to non-violence. He had better have someone with him if he came on this particular occasion. And I thought that was f?~U\" Srt--r\u003e·::,~k ~~~~+\\ ........... ~.:,._;_~~~~~~~ But as a matter of fact, on that particular Sunday, they did arrive. They were standing in front of the church and the Ji'shop was aware of this, aware that this was the kind of tension that we were faced with and so he had instructed us not to go in the front door of the church. We had our nonnal procession in the front door. But to enter the sanctuary from the side door to avoid a confrontation at the front door of the church, in case there was physical violence. \"? I: Were these black demonstrators or white'~? S: These were white. They were reacting to what happened the Sunday before. 0.\\-{.... But as the hour for service grew near, Father Seymour and ~knew that we weren't about to go in the side door. This was just not going to be our way of doing things. So, we went in the front door. We walked through -.t-tv-~ the group and ~ was people The only grateful thing, the only gracious thing, good thing was that on that particular Sunday, no black demonstrators were at the front door. Had they done so, CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 27 we would have had a problem because we weren't going to be intimidated by that kind of (\"', t ! ,1' -\\1-r ·i , .. ·r \"·'\"''\\ 1; \\1\" ··'. ~\"··But there were instances like that ----------------- they passed_. _____ _ Th at went on generally through the sunnner'()'-:\\-_U v...-?-\u003c- 0\".:. .I,(-t\u003c - s;..,, \"'.,...c( .\\,,'_,;;_\"-----· What I wanted to say to you about things learned 1and being of the people, perhaps their friends, is that I think I discovered some­thing that apparently lots of other people already know and that is that when you have someone who is confronted with an issue such as demanding your relationship with the person with whom you o-~ .bs-1- \"\"'\" \"'\\ ______ ___;; ____ ~ it's very hard for you to make that kind of transition immediately. So, what I did was to not force anybody and if I knew anybody who had strong ,, lol)\\C.1ypv !,:,.,..~\",:.,) feelings, anti-black, I didn't go out and say, you are not a giristian ,, '( and danmed to hell, that sort of stuff. and I love you and I do. I have a great wann feeling for a great many of those people who even today are obstinate, they are absolutely holding their position that is1 not to l;rc,....Q But by approaching them with that position, they didn't have to defend themselves. I was not someone who was constantly W VIC .( /j., thought of as a danming figure but rather someone accepting them even as they were. 'I ' ...R,w,,\u003e._:r (_ {\\ \\ .. ! ~ ... ' ..--.. \\ They knew my position and they knew that I didn't agree with -them but I didn't destroy them if I had a disagreement with their position. This allowed some of the people, the opportunity in later years to move from one position to another without having me say ha ha, I told you you would eventually or feeling anything at all except that they were able to make that on their own. When they made it, it didn't change their relationship with me noti~bly. They were still the same friend that I had before. And I was there. But they could now take a new posture without any kind of external agitation, would you say. And that happened on a great CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 28 many occasions and it was tremendously gratifying to me to see this occur. I remember one specific day when)I don't think I will ever forget, one of the men whose name is not mentioned in any of these papers but he was • p :.- extremely racist, just absolutely, my God, no blacks \\-.. ~;!\\\\..' o-r-t...c~. ' But he was also equally, irrationally Episcopal~an. .And if you are an I Episcopal~an, it didn't make any difference if you came from Mars , you are Episcopal~an. .And one Easter, some of the members of the black '1-, --- Mission, came to Easter services at Trinity, two, three, four years after all this in '64. And suddenly here was this man kn.e~ing at the alter of the Trinity Church along side one of the most notable leaders of the black '-J conmrunity who would have been most l.llldesirable as far as he was concerned. And the ~read was given to everybody and the chalise came by and I watched this guy receive the connnon chalise and pass it on to this black person next to him and he never moved and didn't get up and I'm sure he must have been feeling all kinds of thing7 but he made it. He survived it. He made it. And to me, that was a tremendous experience. I could see this happen'· to people. But this is not the kind of thiag that you can very well .And it's not the kind of thing that happens l.lllder the pressure, it may happen as a reaction to the pressure. But only after you have let down your wall, stppped fighting, stopped all of your defense mechanisms and let yourself be open to a new position which is part of ./\\ ¢-S I: Was there any time when you could reach out to the black commllllity; you said there was some sort of overtures being made prior to the racial crisis. Was there any, could you ptck up those threads later on and reestablish ••• I L CRSTA 4.AB CTM Page 29 S: Yeah, during the entire summer of '64, there were meetings periodically/ sometimes weekly, sometimes more often, between some white clergy and some black clergy. And gradually we included some lay persons in these UJ\u003e.1(\u003c,..L( y-vc,..) ~ conversations. The goal,of~ beinv~o···~ 111.,..we in the commllllity,- h~ _\\.PV'\\,5, ~ in this situation. The white ~ +-k ~V- ,'/. clergy that participated, ~ Episcopal cler~ 'If? Pres!J}!!tarian clergymen who was open and easy to deal with this and one OT two of the ( Methodist cler,gy~ the Baptist were practically non-existent; I: (the interviewer asked something) 1-\\ei.-..J d .. ~'.)-..)4 (::,~ •. ,,,.., -+C (c .. IQ~\\·r·.'.;;? S: Not at ti$ time. I think it needs to be noted powever 1that John Burns; who /1~~~) in ASia was the monsenior of the cathedral at that particular time. And Archbishop Hurley was the archbishop of the diocese of St. Augustine. Archbishop Hurley specifically directed John Burns to make connnunication with the clergy of Trinity Parish and offer them support. I: Michael Gannon \\-...)C-S. t~kro ~~--'-~~~~~~~~~~~~~- S: I knew Mike extremely well. I: Did ym?. S: I am very fond of Mike. I: You were friends? S: I am extremely fond of him. Do you see him regularly? I: Yes. S : Tell him hello for me. I: I will. S: I am extremely fond of him. Mike's a great person. I'm sorry that the . church isn't using him right now, the way I think they ought to be able .(.?.. .,, '', I', . J to but he has an awful lot ~0 \tr,.·-·~ • ~. there were these persons who were in commllllication at that point. Out of that kind of commllllication also grew a learning that I think is significant. And that was that we -- -- - --------------- CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 30 were all very sensitive to each other and we had new concerns that we had not necessarily had before. .And it was hard to connnunicate because \u003c.. of these Hightened sensitivities. You didn't dare do anything or say anything for fear of offending somebody else. So finally, one of the black clergy, I'll never foTget this, finally just put his hands on top .1 ..$ ;._;;. I\\ !?\"°:~I,•; ~\"\"' ~: ... [ '\"' ) C)t.,_.I ~. . I I ' ,~-v· ., ... ::\\ $...-. of the table and said1 we ain't going 1;» done,~ you can call me a nigger if you want to because that's what you usually call me 1 and I can call you a powder face because that's what I usually call youf'and he said1 ''neither one of us is going to get upset by this. .And once we get around this, we can start talking to each other and getting down to the things that we need to get to!1 And that was to me very refreshing because 1,.;:, '-' r we were being so careful with each other, not to offend1-ttmt we weren't '-' \\\u00261' .,,Ir~ l \\{O really dealing. So once we all said OK, don't worry about what I say, try to hear what I intend you to hear, we began to make some movement forward. I was ref~\\red by that. Later, and I don't know how long this continued, but later, .we were able to involve some of the major leadership persons of the connnunity in by and large with black and white persons '12 LC r .. .,.-~,--,J 1 \u003e- .' · ~ i r ...,,-:\\ , and other51 basically they were involved for ~ And they were manipulated to bring about those things that they thought were going \") ·, to be in their favor ~~---~----~ But at least, it was communication. I: Who were some of those representatives from other churches? Do you remember the names of the people from the black churches or the white churches? S: I do not remember their names, I'm sorry. There was a Dr. Lee who was _f?_ic.:_c_J_ ,_ ~l~_c_c_:r_·· -c\"_c;_._r·_(_J __ the Methodist church representative was quickly transferred out because they didn't reflect the wishes of the people CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 31 in the congregation. They were very committed men when I got there in 1964. The two Methodist clergymen in the city of St. Augustine in the spring of 1964 were very connnitted to helping deal with the racial issue f ,_,,,(. • \\ cμ,.-Q L v \\ ~ic , 1 '\\;v , c U .. 1 df' 11\u003c.~~ \\) ',.\\ • I: Were you able to bring in blacks to the Episcopal church in St. Augustine during your tenure? S: No, there were no black communities brought into Trinity Church. We have now1still, and had then, a black mission not too far away from Trinity Church that had been there for many,·many, many years. I: Where was this? S: On Citrus. And at this particular time, the Episcopal church also had a mission, a black mission, in Fernadino which was on the opposite end of the block at St. Peters A~. And the NAACP and ~----------- others put pressure on the diocese of Florida to close that church and to bring the black congregation into.thewhite congregation in our neighborhood which was white. Successfully or not so successfully, I'm not so sure. If you went down 4 · ~-~----------------~ And the same suggestion was made to st0f;f~p?). ~ --------------~~ people at St. ~~said that they did~ want it. And this is not ~---~-,,,... The t._.,,_,., , ..... , a racist vie' I don r t think_·_~_c_~--~\\ -· ' I I •.I ' 1\" ,.1 ]!{ i_c_0 _1~ _·~_'_,_._,_,_.1 _·_·~ rut they knew that the people of Trinity didn't want i~ ---- The second thing they knew was that if they went to Trinity ,Yarish, not only would they feel not welcome but they would loose any political powers they had within their own structure in the community. The church would have killed the congre-gational structure. And they really didn't want that. So they·_/'/.:...· __ _ the Bishop not to close them. And he did not close them. And they CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 32 continued on and still continue until this day. I: Who serves in the missionary? Is there a priest? S: There is a priest that goes there. Now when they had a black priest, they operated autonom(ously. Whff'¢ I was in St. Augustine and they did not I: have a black priest and I showed up in St. Augustine, I took the services there regularly, Eucharist and regular prayers, every other Sunday, I think 1I had used this building, confirmation classes, church school teaching and different things. So, I carried them both in interim periods when we didn't have black ministry. We now have a black priest who works there. After '64, I can't remember whether it was '65, '66, but at the same time, somewhere down the line, the people of St/·s·i.~;~:~ began again to come to services at Trinity when they felt like it. When we had speakers of significance who they wished to be present for, they .J.c felt comfortable in coming. On some occasions, some would come to weekly service:in chapel for Eucharist. And we had two or three or four who were ~ quite accustomed to receiving Eucharist weekly and they had not been there weekly for awhile simply because ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ because again you reach the point where people from the town knew I each other. (End of tape 2 side A) •••• I can't remember. I guess I have used up alot of your time but let me just ask one last I question. From your perspective, what impact did the racial crisis have on the community? What sort of shape did it leave the community in after King left? After Reverend Codding Lynch and Stoner left? CAI 1 0~\\-.t, S: That's the same question that my friend got me with. The community was ~-1 a unity of persons who found it difficult to trust one another whether I it be in the white community or the black or between whites and whites 1 L __ CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 33 whites and blacks, there had been so many things opened that you weren't ~tp:!t' rcrJJ , \\ sure you couldAtrust the guy down the street because he may have been involved in the white citizens council sort of thing or he may not have been. He didn't know whether you were or whether you were more liberally-oriented and therefore, so there was, in terms of interpersonal relations/ ct-- such as racial concerns, a destruction of~ trust. You really couldn't s. 4-n~ d , tell where anybody~. In terms of what was going on between the white ....,. connnunity and the black connnunity per se, the white connnunity ------ to the pressures. Restaurants were opened; public facilities were opened, access~y}opened, hiring and firing was done more ~1: \\.,..) ('·,: ·~\\l\"'-,.:;­in a manner, people were taking on token blacks because ~-e-wer~ chTn:gs-that they had to do. But nobody was doing what was really good, open, ().Na., /f rejoicing, feeling good. Generally for the entire_· _________ _ it was that kind of thing. You did what you gotta do but it was not what you wanted. I suspect maybe some changes had taken place but I doubt that they had really changed. The reason I say that is because of the congregation I have here /1 Their attitudes have not changed that much, at this point. The reason I don't begin the intense pressure of St. Augustine. I: Did you feel the intense pressure left than ----- I guess it did leave more in St. Augustine? Do you think, I keep asking questions after I said that would be the last one, do you think St. Augustine could have moved as far as it did without the crisis of '63 and '64? Would it have moved further? ( .., ,.) S: Very hard. It's very hard to say. That is such an \u003c;:_.\\X~C'-.(!'Q. question. 11-'S Honestly, I could not tell you. I would like to say, I 1thought it would because they did an exceptional job at the very outset of dealing CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 34 with the school situation. They really did. They ran into problems some years after I left with their seventh grade centers and that sort of thing that really became problematical because they had to/ had to put a certain number of whites in the black community school. But when they first started out dealing with the quote''integration ~. . \\ \\ r ,.. .{ \\ t. l, ) problem;' what they did was to open the schools and say that 1'~nybody, can go to any school that they want to. And a goodly number of black children innnediately came into the white structures. And that worked relatively well. Many of the black children stayed in the black schools. There was one school over on the island that was predominately white, ~.J-some black children/but predominately white. But 1 then the schools that were in the area between the two, where there could be freedom of movement to and from, worked relatively well. And everybody seemed to be pulling it up. It was only when further restrictions or guide-lines by the Federal government said that you have to do this, that they really began to get into problems. They might have done af-ight left on their own, given things that had been going on in the whole national structure. It might have been a]fight because it was still a small town fs it is no~ and everybody knew everybody. And maybe certain whites would want to suppress certain blacks '1. . ·ft4c-V'I t-.P'1' -2- l.t. JL (;::-;;;..( ! v.\\'r:-:::-. • \\ L.(,. 1:\u003e ( not much different really than whites~ suppress whites,~ the black people who suppress blacks. I think we have that same 'S'.- l\"~\"'c.. whether it becomes more heightened an image or becomes more undesirable for those who are making any kind of evaluation on white behavior or black. But I think that probably, as any other city of that size in the south east, given the mentality, the psychology, the attitudes CRSTA 4AB CTM Page 35 • • \"\"? of the people that didn't have that kind of situation~'~~~~~~~~~ I: OK, thank you very much. 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Please contact the contributing organization to obtain a copy and permission to reproduce this item."],"dcterms_medium":["transcripts"],"dcterms_extent":["35 pages"],"dlg_subject_personal":["Bullock, Stanley","Seymour, Charles","Peabody, Mary E. (Mary Elizabeth), 1891-1981","King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968","Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011","Williams, Hosea, 1926-2000","Vivian, C. T.","Young, Andrew, 1932-","Gannon, Michael, 1945-"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"fhm_floh_fort2","title":"Clarence Fort / interviewed by Steven Lawson","collection_id":"fhm_floh","collection_title":"Florida Civil Rights Oral Histories","dcterms_contributor":["Lawson, Steven F., 1945-","University of South Florida Libraries. Florida Studies Center. 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