{"response":{"docs":[{"id":"gych_rogp_088","title":"Wilie Bolden, 07 October 2009.","collection_id":"gych_rogp","collection_title":"Reflections on Georgia Politics oral history collection, 2006-2010","dcterms_contributor":["Short, Bob, 1932-"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, 39.76, -98.5","United States, Florida, 28.75054, -82.5001","United States, Georgia, 32.75042, -83.50018"],"dcterms_creator":["Short, Bob, 1932","Bolden, Willie, 1938"],"dc_date":["2009-10-07"],"dcterms_description":["Bolden discusses his early years and his work as a civil rights activist. He provides an overview of his activity with the Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC), the Poor People's Campaign, and the Summer Community Organization for Political Education (SCOPE). Specifically, he addresses his work with voter registration drives in Albany, Georgia, the efforts to integrate hotels and restaurants in St. Augustine, Florida, and his role as 'wagon master' for the Poor People's Campaign. Other topics include the events of Bloody Sunday and his relationship with civil rights leaders Martin Luther King, Jr., and Hosea Williams.","Willie Bolden was born in Sumter, South Carolina on December 7, 1938. He was raised in Savannah, Georgia. Bolden served in the U.S. Marines. Inspired by Hosea Williams and Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., he joined the Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC). He was the \"Wagon Master\" for the Mule Train on the Poor People's Campaign, preparing cities for Dr. King's arrival. Bolden was also active in Williams' Summer Community Organization for Political Education (SCOPE), a program designed to recruit white students to help with the movement. In 1972, he earned a master's degree in education from Harvard University. He served with the labor movement from 1973 to 1979. He then worked as the director of personnel for the Atlanta Public Library until 1983. Afterwards, Bolden began serving as pastor of the Pilgrim Missionary Baptist Church in Atlanta.","Finding aid available in repository.","Interviewed by Bob Short."],"dc_format":["video/mp4"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection","http://sclfind.libs.uga.edu/sclfind/view?docId=ead/RBRL220ROGP.xml"],"dcterms_subject":["Southern Christian Leadership Conference","Poor People's Campaign","Civil rights movements--United States","Civil rights movements--Georgia","Race relations","Voter registration--Georgia--Albany","Civil rights movements","Voter registration","Georgia","Georgia--Albany","United States"],"dcterms_title":["Wilie Bolden, 07 October 2009."],"dcterms_type":["MovingImage"],"dcterms_provenance":["Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-088/ohms"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection, ROGP 088, Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Libraries, Athens, Georgia, 30602-1641."],"dlg_local_right":["Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule."],"dcterms_medium":["oral histories (literary works)","interviews"],"dcterms_extent":["1 interview (81 min.) : sound, color."],"dlg_subject_personal":["Bolden, Willie, 1938-","King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968","Williams, Hosea, 1926-2000"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":"Willie Bolden  interviewed by Bob Short \r\n2009 November 7 \r\nAtlanta, Georgia \r\nReflections on Georgia Politics \r\nROGP-020 \r\nOriginal: video, 81 minutes \r\n \r\nsponsored by: \r\nRichard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies \r\nUniversity of Georgia Libraries \r\nand \r\nYoung Harris College \r\n \r\nDate of Transcription:  November 17, 2009 \r\n \r\nBOB SHORT:  Im Bob Short.  This is Reflections on Georgia Politics sponsored by Young Harris College and the University of Georgia Library.  Our guest is Reverend Willie Bolden, who lived through many battles during the Civil Rights Movements alongside Dr. King, an educator, active member of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, and a well known citizen of Atlanta.  Welcome, Reverend Bolden. \r\n \r\nWILLIE BOLDEN:  Thank you. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You were born in South Carolina but made your way to Atlanta through Savannah. \r\n \r\nBOLDEN:  Right.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Tell us about your early life. \r\n \r\nBOLDEN:  Okay.  And just before starting, I would also like to just for emphasis say that Im the pastor of the Pilgrim Missionary Baptist Church here in Atlanta, 498 English Avenue. \r\nI was born, like you said, in Sumter, South Carolina.  My parents decided that they did not want me to grow up on a farm and decided to move to Savannah.  When they moved there I was three years old.  I understand from my mom that my dad came first and got a job and then three months later after he found some place to stay, he sent for her and for me and thats how we ended up in Savannah, Georgia.   \r\nI was educated in Savannah.  I developed my Christian beliefs in Savannah.  I grew up in St. Phillip A.M.E. Church. Its now Martin Luther King Boulevard, but when I was a young boy it was West Broad Street.  And its still there.  One of the largest, if not the largest A.M.E. church in Savannah.     \r\nMy involvement in the movement in Savannah came into play -- believe it or not, I was an ex-Marine and I came home and got a job on the waterfront as a longshoreman.  And I said to myself, \"Self, theres got to be a better way to make a living than working on the waterfront.\"  But I didnt know exactly what that would be.  So I ended up being an assistant bell captain at one of the two plush hotels.  In my young days now, there were only two plush hotels in Savannah.  The DeSoto Hilton, and its still there on Oglethorpe Street, and the Manger Hotel.  Well, as the assistant bell captain I made money every day.  So I had money every day.  And my second job was shooting pool.  I was a nine ball player.  And not just your average nine ball player.  I was a real good nine ball player.  As a matter of fact, when I see these tournaments on television today I say, \"Man, if they had that back when I was a young boy Id probably be a millionaire now.\"  \r\nSo that was my other way of making money.  But to get involved the movement, every day at 12:00 -- you could set your watch by it -- Hosea Williams would march downtown.  There was a park right across the street from the hotel where I work.  And there is an Indian Chief statue by the name of Tomochichi.  And Hosea would march two or three hundred people every day, Monday through Friday, and where he got these folks from, I couldnt even imagine.  But he had them.  And he would climb up on Tomochichi and he would talk about the white power structure downtown.  And I said one or two things, \"Either this man is crazy or hes one hell of a organizer.\"  Come to find out he was both.   \r\n Very good friend of mine, but some of the things that Hosea did, it was unbelievable.  But I found out that they were going to try to integrate the hotel where I worked.  And my job, given to me by the innkeeper, was when the demonstrators come downtown you lock the door.  And thats what I did.  But when I found out they were coming this particular day, I left the door unlocked and went downstairs.  And when I did, the group came in, led by Ben Clark, who was one heck of a organizer, along with some other folk, and they just took over the lobby because they would not let them in the restaurant, nor would they let them check in to the hotel.  When they were all arrested then I was summoned to the innkeepers office and terminated that same day.  Now I said, \"Oh, man, you mean to tell me I lost my job.  Man.\"  \r\nBut I lived to find out that that was the best thing that could ever happen to me.  And I say that because that same innkeeper who fired me, before it was over, because I got involved with Hosea and the Chatham County Crusade for Voters and we integrated the hotels and motels and the restaurants in Savannah, and that same hotel where I was fired from, Hoseas wife, Juanita Williams and Ben Clark and myself integrated that hotel.  And I insisted on the innkeeper who fired me to check me in.  \r\n And of course we didnt sleep all night.  We kept in touch with each other.  I wish we had had cell phones back then but cell phones were not the thing.  We could just call from room to room to make sure that everybody was all right.  I slept with the chair up against the door, not only all the other locks, to make sure that nobody could come in.  Didnt feel comfortable sleeping.  I think we all went home when we checked out the next day and went to bed and got some sleep.  But I enjoyed being able to check into that hotel that terminated me.   \r\nNow, how I met Dr. King.  I met Dr. King in a pool room.  The pool room was called Charlie Browns Pool Room on West Broad Street.  All of that now is torn down.  West Broad Street -- Martin Luther King Jr., the street today is nothing like it was when I was a boy coming up.  You had clubs from Broad Street to 37th street in Savannah.  I mean nice clubs.  Because you see, you had the Air Force base there and the Army base just a few miles away.  Ft. Stewart.  All of the soldiers came to Savannah on liberty.  And at the end of Montgomery Street you had Hunter Air Force Base, so all the airmen would come to town.  So, they had to have some place for them to go and so they had a lot of clubs.   \r\nSo Hosea had invited Dr. King to come to Savannah.  And this particular day I was in the pool room playing nine ball and Hosea and his group, along with Dr. King, came in.  And Dr.  King said, \"Brother, you just give me a few minutes; I promise you I wont be long.  I just want to talk to you for a few minutes.\"  Well, right about the time he was asking for our attention I was getting ready to bank the eight ball across side, play the nine ball in the corner, and get paid.  And I didnt want to hear nothing about what this guy was talking about, you know.  So he walked over to me, he said, \"Whats your name?\"  I said \"Whats your name?\"  He say \"Im Martin Luther King, Jr.\"  I say \"Im Willie Bolden.\"  He said, \"I promise you, Im not going to take long.  Just give me a few minutes of your time.\"   \r\nSo I very arrogantly took my pool stick and they had benches around the wall, because if you werent playing you had to sit on the bench out of the way.  So I went over and sat on the bench with my pool stick in front of me and he was talking.  I act like I wasnt listening but I was listening.  And finally, he got through and he said, \"Thank you, guys, man, I really appreciate your time.\"  Well, he invited everybody to come to a mass rally at St. Philip Church that night because he was going to be speaking.  And so when he and Hosea and the crew left I got back over the table, I banked the eight ball cross side, I played the nine in the corner, I got paid.   \r\nSo, later on that night I was home.  Man, Bob, my pockets was swolled up like they had the mumps.  I mean I had a good day in the pool room, right?  So I went home that night to take my bath.  And we didnt have showers like we have today.  I took my bath in a number 310 tub.  Some of the people wholl be listening to this tape would not even know what a number 310 tub is, but thats what we used to wash clothes and everything back during those days.  So I took my bath in my number 310 tub and got dressed up for the evening.  And while I was in the tub, it was strange, because I could hear Dr. King talking about how we were beating each other out of the little bit of money that we had.  When, in fact, the man who was really robbing us was several blocks down the street at City Hall and at the County Commission and in the County Commission Chambers and sitting up in these suites.  And I said, \"You know, I think Ill go hear that guy tonight and see what else hes got to talk about.\" \r\nBut I didnt want the boys to know that I was going to go to the church.  So when I got ready to go, I lived on the corner of Anderson and Burroughs, I walked down Anderson Street to Montgomery Street, which is the street past West Broad.  Then walked up Montgomery Street and back to West Broad Street so I could get to St. Philip Church which sat on West Broad and Hall Street.  And I went in there, people were all -- I know the pastor of that church wished that people were there every Sunday like that --  people were all over the place.  I mean in the rafters, up in the balcony, all around,  standing all around.  I said \"Jesus Christ, all these folks.\"   \r\nSo I just kind of leaned back on the wall and I was listening.  And I watched this guy Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.  He had everybody in the palm of his hand.  At will, he picked folk up out of the pew and sat them down at will.  I had never heard nobody speak like that before.  And Im learning on the wall and all of the sudden chill bumps start coming on me.  And I said to myself, \"Self, a man is not supposed to make another man feel the way this man is making me feel.  Thats just not supposed to be.\"  And when he finished, folks started lining up around the wall to go shake his hand.  And I went and got in line and when I walked up to him and I stretched my hand out to shake his hand he stretched his hands out and when our hands met it felt like I had cotton in my hand.  I was scared to give him a real firm confident shake.  I just squeezed his hand just a little bit.   \r\nBut the thing that got me, Bob, was this:  he say, \"Willie, Im so glad you came.\"  Now, I dont know how many folk this man had met, but how could he remember my little ol' Willie name?  And I must admit that it made me feel pretty good, right?  A guy like this remembering me.  About three weeks later Hosea told me Dr. King wanted me to come to Atlanta.  I said \"For what?\"  \"Well, he might want you to talk about working with him.\"  I said, \"Now, Hosea, thats the non-violent movement.  I know yours is non-violent, too, but you know, we dont have folks spitting on us and we dont have folk slapping and hitting on us because we dont have that kind of violent movement.  Only thing happening to us in Savannah was we got locked up, okay? \" And I said, \"Now, Hosea, you know Im an ex-Marine and if somebody spit on me, if they have a lip when its all over with, its going to be a miracle.  Beause Im not letting anybody, I dont care who it is, spit on me.  And Lord knows, you know I aint going to let nobody hit me and I not hit them back.  So, you tell Dr. King that, you know, I cant handle that non-violent stuff.\"  He said, \"Well, I tell you what, Bolden\" -- cause he always called me Bolden -- \"you tell Dr. King yourself.\"  He gave me a flight check, what they used back then.  All I had to do was go out there and sign my name to it and give it to em and get on the plane and go to Atlanta and when I got ready to come back take another check, sign on it, and come back to Atlanta.  He gave me one for going, one for coming. \r\nI came to Atlanta, met with Dr. King at 334 Auburn Avenue.  Thats where the National SCLC Headquarters was located, right on the corner of Hilliard and Auburn Avenue.  His office wasnt nowhere as large as this office is.  I mean his office really was like a little closet, had a very small desk and his chair and had books all around naturally, and one small sofa over on the wall.  And I met with him and he told me that hed like for me to come work with him.  And all that stuff I told Hosea, I could not get it out of my mouth to tell him.  I dont know why.  As a matter of fact, Ill be quite honest with you, I was a bit nervous sitting in there with him.  And I remember him asking me, he said, \"Do you have a Bible?\"  And I said, \"Yes, I have a Bible.\"  And he gave me -- and I still have it -- a book on Mahatma Gandhi, the master of non-violence.  And he said to me, \"Willie\" -- he always called me Willie -- he said, \"Willie, were going to turn this country from upside down to right side up with two books:  one, the Holy Bible and two, Mahatma Gandhi.  Read and study both of them.\"   \r\nIt was three years before I went back home.  I had to have my mom pack up my stuff and send it to me on the Greyhound bus.  Thats how I got involved in the Civil Rights Movement from Savannah, Georgia.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  What was your first experience in the movement after you joined SCLC? \r\n \r\nBOLDEN:  Now, my first experience was to go into town.  Andy Young -- well, at that time, before Andy came it was Wyatt Tee Walker.  He was the executive director.  He and Andy, they all worked closely together.  But primarily, my job was wherever Dr. King was going into a movement, my job was to go in and make sure that the people knew he was coming.  I had to get out, make sure that thousands of leaflets would be distributed, that churches would be notified, that the people in the community knew that he was coming.  My job was to get the town ready for Dr. King.  And I did that in several cities.  That was my primary job.  But I felt like I had more to offer than just making sure that some leaflets and stuff got put out.  You know, I felt like I was a leader in my own right.  I mean even back home in Savannah I was a leader, you know.  And I felt that I had much more to offer.   \r\nAnd I remember saying that in a meeting, I said, \"You know, I can do a lot more than just make sure theres some leaflets.  But anybody can go to town and put out some leaflets.\"  And thats when they assigned me to Hosea.  And Hosea started me with voter registration in Albany, Georgia.  And I went to Albany and I stayed in Albany over a year on voter registrations.   \r\nI had several run-ins with one of the meanest police chiefs youd want to meet by the name of Pritchett.  He locked me up two or three times.  And I remember on one occasion I took some people down to the courthouse to get registered and they wanted us to leave and I told the folk we werent going to leave.  And I was standing up on the -- it had a little, I guess youd call it an edge, going up the steps to the courthouse.  And I was standing up on that because the people could see me as I talked to them.  And he slapped me off the edge on top of a car and I guess he thought that I was going to get up and leave, but fortunately, I didnt hurt myself.  Did more damage to that car than I did myself.  And I got up and went back and stood right back up on that same stump and kept on talking and the people never left.  So he had his folk to lock me up.  And I stayed in jail a couple of days and a lawyer by the name of C.B. King, Slater Kings brother, was the one who came and defended me.  And the guy who went on my bond was a black business man there who owned a beauty supply company called Chapman Beauty Supply.  And he was the one that went on my bond and got me out of jail.  And C.B. King was the one who represented me in court.  And if my memory serves me correctly, I was fined something like $100 for failing to obey a police officer.  But we registered hundreds and hundreds of voters in Albany during my stay there at that time.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Dr. King was also arrested in Albany wasnt he? \r\n \r\nBOLDEN:  Oh yeah, he was arrested in Albany.  J.T. Johnson, there were a lot of folk from the movement who were locked up in Albany.  And C.B. King, the one who represented us, even today the federal courthouse in Albany, Georgia is named after attorney C.B. King, in Albany, Georgia.  I went down.  The wife and those and invited me to come down to the ceremony.  And its downtown Albany.  C.B. King Federal Building.  So you see a lot came out of  what we did that the average American dont even know about.  They may have heard the name but I doubt if anybody, well I wouldn't say anybody, but there are very few people outside of Albany would know that the guy who stood our bonds and fought for us in the courtroom had the federal courthouse named after him.  And he also ran for governor.  He was a guy before his time.  He was a brilliant lawyer.  A brilliant, brilliant lawyer. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  So what happened after Albany? \r\n \r\nBOLDEN:  After Albany I think my next move was Social Circle, a little town about 30, 40, maybe a little more than 40 miles east of Atlanta.  There was a white teacher and a black teacher who became friends.  Both were females.  And they were terminated, both of them, because they would not sever their relationship and they supported each other, and they were good teachers.  But you know, when they want to find a way to terminate you they will find a way.  So, they found a way and terminated them.  They brought it to SCLC, so I was assigned to Social Circle to see what could we do to get their jobs back.  \r\nSo I went in and started organizing the community along with some other staff from SCLC.  And we stayed there in Social Circle over a good year, because we pulled kids out of school.  We closed the schools down in Social Circle.  And we were marching every day.  The state patrol, they had as many as 20 to 25 state patrols assigned -- they would follow me -- I thought they were my escorts because everywhere I went there were one or two state patrols behind my car.  They knew my car.  They knew when I left.  They would follow me from  Social Circle back to Atlanta.  And they would stop out there on 20, and when my car headed back to Social Circle they would pick me up and follow me.  Well, I didnt mind that because I said \"As long as the state patrol is following me then I dont have to worry about the Ku Klux Klan following me.\"  So, I say \"They dont know it but they are really doing something to help me.\"  So I almost wanted to call them and say look, \"Im getting ready to leave\", so they could come behind me and follow me.   \r\nBut we stayed there for about a year and that particular city received at the SCLC National Convention, they received the Affiliate of the Year Award because of what was going on.  Because not only did it affect Social Circle but it affected many of the other little cities around, like Lincolnton and Washington, all the way over to Monroe.  The movement just started spreading like throwing a rock in the water and you see the ripples going out.  So, it was a catalyst for a lot of other movements in and around Social Circle.  As a matter of fact, thats where I was when Dr. King was assassinated.  I was meeting with the leader and the treasurer and the leadership of the Social Circle Movement at the presidents house when it came over the TV that Dr. King had just been shot.  And I said \"man.\" I mean everybody just stopped. I mean we couldnt do or say anything.   \r\nAnd then they showed a picture.  I shall never forget it.  They showed a picture of Dr. King speaking somewhere and it was like you saw a halo over his head.  And I said then to the group, I said, \"Hes dead yall.  Hes dead.\"  Not knowing that he really was dead.  Because the news was hes been shot.  And sure enough he died.  And I remember getting in my car going to Atlanta, trying to get a airplane so I could go to Memphis and they had cancelled all flights to Memphis, Tennessee.  And I remember calling the office and speaking to Dora McDonald, who was Dr. Kings secretary, and said, \"Dora, I got to get to Memphis.  I got to get to Memphis.  I got to get\" -- she said, \"Willie, they have locked.  They closed down everything.\"  I said \"Well, Im going to drive.\"  She said, \"No, dont drive.  You just need to come on to the office.\"  And so, instead -- Ill never forget.  It was pouring down rain.  I mean it was raining like cats and dogs.  And I remember driving on back to Atlanta to the SCLC office that night.   \r\nBut Social Circle was quite a movement.  And then after Social Circle I went to Pike County in Georgia because they had terminated Dr. Glover, D.F. Glover, who served for many years in Atlanta on the Board of Education as an elected official.  They terminated him.  And the reason they terminated him was because they were going to integrate the schools and Dr. Glover was the principal of the only black high school there.  Pike County Mechanical something Industrial High School.  So, they terminated him because they were going to merge the black high school in with the Pike County High School, which was the white high school.  Now, heres a guy who had been in education almost 15 years longer than the principal at the white high school.  Not only that, he had a doctorate in education.  He had come up through ranks.  He had taught.  He was department chair.  His experience was 100 times more greater than the guy who was there, but rather than make him the principal of that school, they did not renew his contract.  And when they did not renew his contract he got in touch with SCLC and they sent me there.   \r\nAnd I went and we met with them and Im saying, \"On what basis do you have not to renew Dr. Glover contract?\"  And they just played with words.  I said \"You terminated the man.  You fired him.\"  \"No, we didnt fire him.  We just didnt renew his contract.\"  \"Well, if you didnt renew his contract you got to have a reason.  You just cant arbitrarily and capriciously not renew someones contract and not give them a reason why.\" \"Well, we just didnt renew his contract.\"  Thats all they would say.   \r\nSo, what I did, we started organizing the community, organizing the schools.  I pulled all the kids out of school, and we marched every single day in that town for about a month.  Every day.  And we saw where our marching -- we would go downtown to the courthouse, give big speeches -- we saw where we had to up the ante a little bit as we would call it.  So we started marching out to the superintendents house.  And we marched out to the superintendents house.  He lived out on the outskirts of Zebulon.  So we marched out to his house during the day.  And then a student came up to me one day and said, \"Reverend Bolden, maybe we need to do it at night.\"  And I said, \"you know, I never really thought about that.  Thats a good idea.\"  So, we marched out there a couple nights.  But then that got to be a little dangerous because they started throwing bricks and bottles and several people got hurt.   \r\nAnd thats when I invited A.D. King, the brother of Dr. King.  He came to Pike County and he led a march and spoke.  But they never did renew Dr. Glover's contract, but we felt like we won because what they tried to do was to keep the high school students who were qualified to graduate that year not to graduate.  They didnt want them to graduate.  So I got a guy in Savannah -- you probably heard of him -- the only guy I know picket more than Hosea.  His name was Reverend Joseph Boone, Joseph Boone.  I went to him and talked about it and we organized a graduation class for the students who met all of the criterias to graduate.  But the county didnt want to give them their diploma.  So we held our own graduation, gave them our own diplomas, and Bob, every one of them we helped get in college.  Every one of them went on to college and are doing quite well even today.  Okay?  \r\nSo we felt like that was a victory.  Now, the other thing that happened in Pike County was we closed down a canning company.  This canning company had about a four or five million dollar contract with the federal government to make pimentos and bell peppers and all kinds of stuff for the federal government.  And what we did, we organized the picketers with the students.  We picketed the company and when that seemed like it wasnt going to work we started organizing the workers who were the parents of the students that we were trying to help.  And when we convinced them of what we were doing, they came out of the canning company, and as a result, the canning company lost their contract with the federal government.  And they sued me personally for $1.5 million.  I went to Macon, the federal court, and I said to the guy who sued me, \"You know, you would have scared the hell out of me if you had sued me for a $100, but a million five.  Where am I going to get it?  The best thing you can get is me.  Do you want me?\"   And they finally dropped that case.  But that company lost somewhere between three and five million dollar contract with the federal government.  So we felt like we had a victory in Pike County because we were able to get those students into college.   \r\nThen later I was assigned to Marks, Mississippi.  As I told you earlier, thats the only city I ever saw Dr. King literally cry.  And he cried because he witnessed a third world city right here in America.  We were always talking about going to Africa and going here and going there, the third world.  Well, we had one right here in America, a Third World city called Marks, Mississippi.  At that time, it was the poorest county in the nation.  Listed as the poorest county in the nation.  Kids seven, eight, nine, eleven, twelve years old walking around with pot belly stomachs.  You would think that they were there because they were eating too much.  The truth of the matter is they were dying from starvation.  Their teeth just rotting out.  It was nothing to see a ten-, eleven-, twelve-year-old boy or girl walking around with just raggedy teeth or no teeth.  You could almost just reach there and pull a tooth out with your fingers because of no medical care.   \r\nWell, right about that time the Poor People's Campaign was being organized.  And I was asked if I would lead the mule train.  Hosea gave me this assignment to bring the mule train from Marks, Mississippi to Washington, D.C.  Took us 52 days to do it.  I had 16 wagons and about 175 men, women, and children on there.  We left out of Marks, Mississippi.  The  governor of Mississippi directed the state patrol to close down one side of Highway 20 so we could travel through Mississippi.  Got to Alabama, the governor instructed the highway patrol, \"close down one side of Highway 20, 20 East\" so we could continue our journey to Washington.  Got to Georgia, Tallapoosa, Georgia, Governor Lester Maddox was the governor.  A kindergarten drop out.  I almost said a high school drop out but I couldnt give him that much credit.  A kindergarten drop out, who was our governor, came out and met us as we were ready to enter into Georgia and said to me, \"These wagons and mules will not go down 20.\"   \r\nI said, \"Mr. Governor, the governor of Mississippi allowed us to come down 20, the governor of Alabama allowed us to come down 20.  Now you mean to tell me my governor in my home state will not allow us to continue our journey.\"  He said, \"I dont care what Mississippi did.  I dont care what Alabama did.  Im telling you whats going to happen in Georgia.\"  And I said, \"Mr. Governor, its obvious that you dont know me very well.  Oh, were going down 20 one way or the other.  Were going down 20.  He got in his car and left.\"  I understand later on he ordered for me to be arrested.  They came and locked me up, took me to jail.  Andrew Marsette, one of my helpers on the march who knew how to organize, organized the mules and wagons off of 20 and brought them all in downtown Tallapoosa to the jailhouse and said \"were not leaving until Willie Bolden is out of jail.\"  They kept me in jail about six hours and they turned me loose.   \r\nAnd guess what?  We spent the night there, got up the next morning, and we went down 20 East, came off at Ashby Street, which is Joseph E. Lowery right now, to Hunter Street, which is Martin Luther King.  Took a right on Hunter Street to Chestnut, which is James P. Brawley Drive.  Well, Dr. Ralph David Abernathy's West Hunter Street Baptist Church sits right on the corner, at that time.  And we  parked the mules and the wagons over at Clark College football field.  And thats where we spent the time until we got ready to go to Washington.  Dr. Abernathy and the restaurant across the street fed us.   \r\nIt was strange because one of the guys who owned one of the restaurants across the street was a number man.  Okay?  And he had this nice restaurant.  And he found out what we had gone through.  He fed everybody on that trip a steak, baked potato with all the trimmings, all of us on that trip.  I think we stayed in Atlanta a couple of days and then we loaded up the mules, the wagons, put the people on buses, loaded up the mules and wagons on horse drawn buggies, I guess youd call em, and the wagon and we took them to Washington, outside of Washington, and we reassembled everything, the mules, the wagons, put all the people on it, and then we went across the bridge into Resurrection City.  And I must admit, and I think I told you earlier, a few tears came to my eyes when we saw all the folk.  Because they knew we were coming.  And they were out there to meet us.  And they were just cheering us on, you know.  Cheering us on.  And the other folk on the wagon, they were cheering us on.   \r\nAnd I told you earlier, and I didnt put it in here, but I was given a white horse with a saddle.  Never rode a horse before in my life.  But I rode that horse that was given to me as the wagon master.  They called me the wagon master.  And the guy said \"if youre the wagon master you got to act like a wagon master.  You got to ride like a wagon master.\"  And I remember him saying like that movie that came on back during the day, \"Rawhide,\" \"youre going to have to say, Get em up!  Move em out!\"  And I would get up every morning after wed have breakfast and got ourselves together, I would go up to the first mule drawn wagon and Id look and the guys who were helping me would let me know that everybody was ready, and I say, \"Get em up!  Move em out!\" Oh, it was fun.  And the weather wasnt always conducive.  We ran into a lot of bad weather.  But we made it.  But we made it.   \r\nAnd then later on I was assigned to St. Augustine, Florida.  That was quite a task there.  In St. Augustine we were trying to integrate the hotels, motels, and restaurants.  And these movements that Im talking about may not go in sequence but at least youll know what they are because in St. Augustine it was in 1964.  And everyone knows -- if you dont know Ill tell you -- the Poor Peoples Campaign took place in 1968.  Thats when we had Resurrection City in Washington, D.C.   \r\nBut in St. Augustine, as I stated earlier, we were trying to integrate the hotel, motels, and restaurants.  And we were beaten twice a day, because it was twice a day that we would march downtown, march out on the beach, and they would be there ready to jump on us.  And on the weekend they would import the Klan from Florida, Jacksonville, Georgia, Arkansas, Mississippi, Alabama.  They would have the Klan to come over and they would be waiting for us at the beaches.  So when we got to the beaches and we got out  and they would wait until we got out in the water and then they would come in and jump on us.  And the strange thing about it, the state patrol would be standing up on the banks and they would see them out there and wouldnt do a thing.  Just allowed them to come and beat us.   \r\nBut let me give you just a little bit of information about St. Augustine and then we can move on.  For those of you who may not be aware, Birmingham and Montgomery, Alabama put the 1964 Civil Rights bill on President Lyndon Baines Johnsons desk because of the movements and activities in Birmingham and in Montgomery.  Theres no question about that.  They were the ones who put it on the desk.  He took it and put it in his drawer.  But it was the  movement in St. Augustine, Florida in 1964: those beatings that I just told you about, a man at the Munson Motel throwing acid in the pool and then the next day when we went back and had a six foot alligator in the pool.  We would go in the restaurant and they would bring the coffee and then just pour mounds and mounds of sugar in it.  Or we would order food and they would come back with salt just stacked up and pepper stacked up on the food to the point where you couldnt eat it.   \r\nBut it was during St. Augustine, Floridas movement that Dr. Kings house was shot up.  A family out of New York allowed him to stay in the house in St. Augustine while we were there.  And they literally shot that house up trying to kill him and anybody else who was in there with him.  And because of that movement, Lyndon Baines Johnson took the 1964 Civil Rights bill out, put it on his desk and signed it.  Thats how we got that. \r\nMarion, Alabama.  The night Jimmy Lee Jackson got killed, Dr. King was supposed to go to Marion, Alabama that night because we had just found out that James Orange was arrested and beaten in Marion, Alabama.  He couldnt go.  So he sent me and about five other guys.  I think it was Henry Brown Lee, Big Lester Hankerson, Jimmy Lee Wells, myself, and one other person.  I cant think of who that person is.  But we went there.  We had a big mass rally that night.  And I spoke.  And we were getting ready to march out of the church to  march down to the courthouse and then eventually over to the jail where they had James Orange.  But when we got there the media was all over the place.  And the sheriff and all his folk were there.  But before we could really get the march on the way outside the sheriff summons one of his henchmen to come and grab me.  And he grabbed me up by my jeans and carried me over to the sheriff and the sheriff said, \"Whats your name, nigger?\"  And before I could say anything he took his pistol and stuck it in my mouth and cocked the trigger back and said, \"If you breathe, nigger, Ill blow your so and so brains out.\"   \r\nNow here I am looking at him and Im trying to say to myself, \"Self, dont breathe.\"  And Im just looking at him and hes looking at me and hes calling Dr. King all kind of names.  \"Dr.  Coon\" and \"you one of these outside agitators who came into town and upset my negro  my niggers.\"  What -- he didnt call them niggers.  \"Niggerettes\"   \"and upset my niggerettes.\"  \"I ought to blow your so and so brains out.\"  And he finally snapped it out and when he did the end of the barrel of his pistol hit my teeth and cracked it.  And then he hit me in the head, busted my  head, and then say, \"Lock your so and so ass up.\"  And they jumped on the marchers and thats the night Jimmy Lee Jackson was killed, trying to protect his mother.  And they took me to jail, along with many others, and as we got to the jail they were taking us upstairs we could see blood all over the floor, going up the steps where they had not only beaten James Orange but they had beaten some other folks who went to jail with him.  So, Marion, Alabama was a tough movement.   \r\nAnd of course, the march on Washington I was fresh out of jail in Savannah.  I had been in jail for about five days.  Hosea had been in jail 55 days.  He refused to come out.  But I came out of jail and helped organized the group that went to Washington, D.C. during the march on Washington.  And of course, as I stated earlier, the mule train was a part of the Poor Peoples Campaign in 1968 when Dr. Abernathy organized Resurrection City in Washington, D.C.   \r\nThen we had a program called SCOPE, S-C-O-P-E.   It stands for  Summer Community Organization for Political Education.  That was another one of Hoseas projects.  That was his baby.  He created it.  And that program was designed specifically for us who worked with him to go north, northwest, in the west to recruit specifically white students to come south to work on voter registration.  Because what was happening in the south was those of us who were of the same hue that the folks were out on the plantation, for some reason or another - I wouldnt say they didnt trust us - but they were a little skeptical about going downtown with us because they felt like we werent able to protect them.  But if the white students would come and say, \"Bob, my name is Susan; Im from the University of Pennsylvania and Im down here working on voter registration, and what were doing, were traveling throughout the county trying to register blacks\" -- we werent saying African Americans then, we were saying blacks -- \"who are not registered to vote, because we know that you have taxation without representation.  We know that you are the last hired but the first fired.  We know that you dont have the jobs that others have.  And with voter registration, we can change that.  So, Id like to take you down to register.\"  And believe it or not, they would go.  They would go on down there.   \r\nAnd we knew that and found that out from the few whites who were working with us in SCLC.  Guys like Al Lango and Willy Leventhal.  They were white guys who worked with us.  And they were getting folks and taken them.  So, Hosea said, \"Well, lets see if we can get the white students from the north, the west, the Midwest to come down to help us with this.\"  And we did.  And we got thousands of them to come.  And we went out in Alabama, in Mississippi, in Florida, in Georgia, and began to register black voters.  And thats when the black voting power really started kicking off.  It was those kind of campaigns that help us, along with Selma, to get the Voters Right Act.  Because once we got the voting right act out of Selma, it made it a bit more easier for us to get blacks registered.  And I say all the time, no Selma, Alabama, no President Barack Obama.  No Selma, Alabama, no Maynard Holbrook Jackson, mayor of the city of Atlanta.  No Selma, no Andrew Young, United States Congressman.  No Selma, no Andy Young, United Nations.  No Selma, no Andy Young, mayor.  No Selma, no Shirley Franklin, Mayor of the city of Atlanta.   \r\nAnd then you can just take it outside of Atlanta and just go all over the world.  We had less than 300 black elected officials nationwide, if we had that many, in 1965.  Today we got over 10,000.  And thats all attributed to Selma, Alabama and the Edmund Pettus Bridge, which Im glad to say I was on it, both times.  The first time, March the 7th, and seven days later, March the 14th.  I was there.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:   Well, tell us about it.  What was it like on the bridge on Bloody Sunday?     \r\n \r\nBOLDEN:  Okay.  I had been assigned there along with some other SCLC staff members to organize voter registration in Selma.  I think it was about four or five of us.  And at the same time, SNCC was there also working on voter registration.  After Bloody Sunday, we had people coming in and Bloody Sunday was when we attempted the first time to go across the Edmund Pettus Bridge. The sheriff and his posse and state patrol, they beat us back across the bridge.  Now, Dr. King -- youre right -- was not much in favor of the march at first because he wanted to try some other techniques before we march.  But Hosea Williams convinced Dr. King that the march was the best thing for us to do.  So, Dr. King acquiesced and said, \"okay, well march.\"  But the ones who led the march was, the first time was Hosea, John, they were the leaders of the march across the bridge.  And thats when they jumped on us and beat us up and pushed us back across the bridge.  Then we regrouped and went back and thats when everybody -- I mean people came from all over the world.  Because they saw what happened on that first march and all of our sympathizers came.   \r\nAnd prior to that, we had had not only the killing of Jimmy Lee Jackson in Marion, but we had two whites killed right there in Selma.  One was a priest, whose name escapes me at the moment.  I was trying to think about it as I talked, but the name just wont come to me, and another one.  So it was kind of touch and go.  But on that second march we took out across the Edmund Pettus Bridge and we were  protected all the way to Montgomery.  Along the way we had all kinds of celebrities who came and supported us.  Again, Harry Bellafonte, Joan Baez, Peter, Paul \u0026 Mary, Sidney Poitier.  We had all kind of folk who had helped the movement along to come and be with us.  And of course, you know, we reach Montgomery, Alabama, and Dr. King gave the big speech on the steps and someone might ask, \"then what happened after that?\"  What happened after that was SCLC started Voter Registration Campaigns all across the country.  All across the country.   \r\nAnd even some small towns we started voter registration.  You take in Selma, Alabama, where there was not one black elected official.  There are now.  And so, not only did we target large cities, but we targeted small cities.  If you remember, Carl Stokes in Cleveland, Ohio, the first black mayor of a major city.  And right after him in Gary, Indiana, Hatcher in Gary, Indiana where SCLC played a major role in getting both of those guys because Dr. King sent staff in to help them on their campaign.  So all these cities where you see blacks serving in elected positions, they have to thank the Selma Movement.  And those who suffered being beaten, and even after we got the 1965 Voters Right Act, there were still some cities, and not all of them small cities, where we had a problem getting blacks registered to vote by the administration, by political, by the power structure of those cities, because they knew that once we got blacks registered then we were going to also turn them out to vote and that meant that, hey, they might get caught up in that wheel. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mississippi.  You led some marches in Mississippi.  \r\n \r\nBOLDEN:  Well my biggest march in Mississippi was Marks.  And the next one would be Grenada, Mississippi.  Grenada, Mississippi was a violent movement.  Again, and thats why I try to tell young people today.  We were always able to get a movement going and get it started with the young people back then.  We would go into a town and get the young people ready and then after a while we would get the adults.  But the young people were the ones who really started the movement.  And in Grenada, that movement got to be really violent.  As a matter of fact, on one occasion, when the Klan jumped on us and beat us up, we were getting ready to march downtown.  I saw with my eyes a guy take his foot and put it between the crotch of a young boy and took his foot, I mean took his foot by his hand and twisted and broke his leg in two places.  I mean how could somebody take a child and put your foot between their crotch and take your hand and twist and break it in two places?   \r\nAnd there were several people who got hurt that day.  And we went to the hospital in Grenada, Mississippi, and guess what?  They wouldnt wait on us.  They wouldnt wait on us.  They said \"Get out of here.  We cant do anything.\"  Thats when I found out about an all black town on the outskirts of Grenada called Mound Bayou.  I had never heard of Mound Bayou.  Its an all black city, elected officials, everything, all black.  Had their own hospital.  And thats where we had to take these injured folk in order for them to get the services they needed for the injuries that they had.  Grenada was pretty tough.  But weathered the storm.  We weathered the storm.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  If you were asked what future generation should know about the Civil Rights Movement, particularly during the 60's and 70's, what would you say?  \r\n \r\nBOLDEN:  What they need to know about the Civil Rights Movement?  They need to know that what they are enjoying today came at a heavy price.  A lot of people whom they dont know died.  A lot of people whom they do not know have mental and physical conditions today as a result of the Civil Rights Movement of the 60's in order for them to enjoy what they are enjoying today.  And they ought not take what they are enjoying lightly.  I would say to young people, today the question should be what is it that I can do to make sure that this country does not revert back to the 40's, 50's, and 60's.   \r\nAnd then get involved.  Get involved with something.  Get involved with some organization.  Do some volunteer work.  I worked for the Southern Christian Leadership Conference for nine years and the most I ever made was $25 every two weeks.  I was never hungry.  I was never naked.  I was never outdoors where I didnt choose to be on my own.  Because the people who we were helping made sure that we had what we needed.  So you ought to get involved. \r\nSecondly, get an education.  Go to school.  When I came to Atlanta in 1961 there were 125,000 students in the Atlanta public school system.  They have less than 55,000 now.  And the dropout rate among blacks in high schools are higher today than it was in 1961.  In 1961 when I came to Atlanta they had one black elected official on the Atlanta Board of Education.  Now we have six.  The superintendent in 1961 was white.  The superintendent in 2009 is black.  But yet, we have more students dropping out of school in 2009 than we had in 1961.  Somethings wrong with that picture.  Somethings wrong.   \r\nAnd we need young people to get involved so we can make sure that whatevers wrong gets straightened out.  John Lewis and Julian Bond and Dr. King and Dr. Abernathy and Hosea and Andy and C.T. and Fred Shuttlesworth and Willie Bolden and James Orange and Leon Hall and Lester Hankerson, we were young men.  You know, we werent old.  We're old now.  But we were young men when we started out in the Civil Rights Movement.  And thats what we need now.  We need young men. I mean kids are smarter today than my two and a half year old granddaughter came to me the other day and I stretched out in the chair and I felt a charley horse coming in the back of my neck and she got up and came over to me and she said, Papa,  whats the  matter?  Whats the  matter, Papa?  And she went over to her mama and said, Lotion, lotion, and mama put a little lotion on her hand and she came back over to rub  Papas leg.  Two and a half years old.  Kids are much smarter today.  But are they using it?   \r\nWe texting.  And we cant write a full sentence because we text shorthand.  Instead of saying Y-O-U, you just put U so you can get a lot of words in there.  And as a results, when you sit down to get ready to write youre writing just like that -- U.  So cant nobody understand what youre writing. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  What do you think are the most important issues facing African- Americans today? \r\n \r\nBOLDEN:  Education and health.  Education, health, and parental involvement.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  What can we do -- \r\n \r\nBOLDEN:  When I was a young man I could not come to my mothers table with no t-shirt on.  In my mamas house, when me and my daddy came to the table we had to have a shirt on.  And the shirt had to be tucked in my pants.  I never saw my daddy in my mamas house with his hat on.  Always took it off before he came in the house.  But I see folks today sitting up in restaurants, the daddy got his hat on backwards, the son got his hat on backwards, the daughter got her hat on backwards.  We have to -- and I know they call it old school but some things we shouldnt throw away.  Some things we should maintain.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Is there a single spokesman for African-Americans today -- \r\n \r\nBOLDEN:  No. \r\n \r\nSHORT: -- as Dr. King was in his day? \r\n \r\nBOLDEN:  No, and I dont think there ever will be another single spokesman for the black community.  And I think maybe the closest person to it today would be our president.  But I cant think of any one civil rights leader who can be identified as the spokesman for the black community.  Now many of them are speaking out on issues that we certainly have some concerns.  Brother Al Sharpton and even Jesse Jackson is a spokesman in his own right.  The National Urban League.  We have a lot of spokesman now, but dont think we will ever have a single spokesman like we had during Dr. King.   \r\nI also think that one of the reason we have a problem in getting the masses of people to get involved like we did in the 60's -- remember, in the 60s nobody had nothing.  Nobody had anything.  You didnt have nothing to lose.  You had everything to gain.  But today folk are living in $3-400,000 homes; they dont want to lose that.  Theyre driving Bentley, Rolls Royce, Mercedes; they dont want to lose that.  Theyre wearing Armani instead of J.C. Penney.  They dont want to lose that.  So, they are ready to send you a few dollars so you can do it, but in terms of them doing it, theyre not going to do that.  But in the 60's, didnt nobody have anything.  So, it was much easier to organize the masses of folk because we all were in the same shape.  Even with the churches, you know, you got the mega churches, with exception of maybe one, you dont see them on the picket line.  They will speak out and theyll write you a check.  But what you really need is their bodies, you see. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  The SCLC is in existence today.  What now is its main focus? \r\n \r\nBOLDEN:  Well, I wish I could tell you that.  I cant tell you what their main focus is.  I think right now SCLC, because it is trying to get a president, and its hard for SCLC to get focused right now because they dont have a leader.  But I think once the leader has been selected and that leader gets his or her cabinet in place and then they can do what Dr. King and Reverend Abernathy and Fred Shuttlesworth and others do what they did.  But I just dont think they are really focused right now, and really focused.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well I appreciate you being with us.  Id like to ask you one final question. \r\n \r\nBOLDEN:  Okay. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Have we overlooked anything in your career that youd like to mention? \r\n \r\nBOLDEN:  Well, no, except I always make it clear that I worked with Dr. King and I loved him and I could have taken that bullet for him -- I really mean it -- some folks say it and just because it sounds good.  But if I could have taken that bullet for Dr. King I would have taken it.  I loved him that much.   \r\nBut my real hero, my real hero -- I have two.  And they are my mother and my father.  My mother gave me the fight thats in me because thats the way she was.  My mom was president of PTA in my elementary school and then when I got promoted to middle school, they called it junior high back then, she was elected president of the PTA.  And the elementary school would not let her resign.  So she ended up being president of the elementary school PTA and the junior high PTA because she was a fighter.  She was a organizer.  She liked to get things done.  My dad, on the other hand, I got my work ethics from.  My daddy taught me the importance of having a job, working, taking care of your family.  He taught me about time.  He said if youre on time youre late.  If youre on time youre late.   \r\nSo I always have a problem, even at the church where I left and the church here, our Sunday morning worship service starts at 11:00.  Im not coming in the pulpit at 11 or five after 11.  Im there before 11.  Im there while the deacons are having devotion so when they finish and turn it over to me well have a smooth transition.  We can move on.  Like today, I knew I was supposed to meet you at 11:00.  I left home early enough in case I ran into traffic and had to detour where I could be here.  I think I got here what?  About 10:35, 10:30, 10:35. \r\n \r\nSHORT: Yeah, you were early.   \r\n \r\nBOLDEN: Yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You were early.  \r\n \r\nBOLDEN:  Because I got all that from daddy.  He was my hero.  Thats the only thing that I would like to add in here, that because of my relationship with my mother and father, I am what I am today.  Dr. King and those just -- and Hosea and Andy and those just helped put the icing on it.  But when I was in the raw it was my mother and father who chiseled me and got me ready.  And when Dr. King and them got me all they had to do was say lets go; I was ready.  Yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Okay.  Willie Bolden, thank you very, very much.   \r\n \r\nBOLDEN:  Thank you.  And I certainly hope that this interview will be enlightening and help those who will watch it.  Because what you have seen and heard today is authentic.  I didnt get it off the Internet and I didnt read a book.  Everything that I talked about today I witnessed it with my own eyes, and I was there.  And again, thank you, Bob. \r\n[END OF RECORDING] \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n       "},{"id":"gych_rogp_086","title":"Lonnie King, 28 September 2009.","collection_id":"gych_rogp","collection_title":"Reflections on Georgia Politics oral history collection, 2006-2010","dcterms_contributor":["Short, Bob, 1932-"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, Georgia, 32.75042, -83.50018"],"dcterms_creator":["King, Lonnie","Short, Bob, 1932"],"dc_date":["2009-09-28"],"dcterms_description":["Lonnie King discusses growing up in Arlington, Georgia. He recalls experiencing racism from a young age and his parents' secret participation in NAACP activities. King reflects on his time in the Navy and the racism he experienced there. King recalls his friendship with Julian Bond and participating in the Greensboro sit-ins. He explains how the idea to write \"An Appeal for Human Rights\" came up and the circumstances surrounding its publication. King discusses the difficulty of recruiting and training nonviolent students. King explains how the Appeal took a different approach to civil rights than the NAACP and describes how the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee was founded and organized. King explains his friendship with Martin Luther King, Jr., and SNCC's relationship with the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. King reflects on a situation where he and Martin Luther King, Jr. were arrested for protesting at Rich's Department Store. He describes how the Kennedys' involvement in the arrest influenced African American voting nationwide. King also describes several class action lawsuits that were significant to the Civil Rights Movement. King discusses the crippled education system in some areas heavily populated by African Americans and explains the importance of programs such as Teach for America. He also recalls the circumstances surrounding Freedom Rides. King recalls several problems experienced within SNCC and the triumphs of the Civil Rights Movement.","Lonnie King was born in Arlington, Georgia. He was raised in Atlanta and served in the U.S. Navy. He left the Navy in 1957, returned to Atlanta, and earned his degree from Morehouse College. In 1960 he was present at the founding of the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee (SNCC) at Shaw University. On March 9, 1960, King and SNCC published An Appeal for Human Rights as an advertisement in various Atlanta newspapers. A critical document of the Civil Rights Movement, the Appeal called for complete racial desegregation by peaceful and nonviolent means. King has taught at Georgia State University.","Finding aid available in repository.","Interviewed by Bob Short."],"dc_format":["video/mp4"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection","http://sclfind.libs.uga.edu/sclfind/view?docId=ead/RBRL220ROGP.xml"],"dcterms_subject":["National Association for the Advancement of Colored People","Southern Christian Leadership Conference","Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (U.S.)","Civil rights movements--Georgia","Civil rights demonstrations--Georgia","Freedom Rides, 1961","Education--Georgia","Civil rights demonstrations","Civil rights movements","Education","Georgia"],"dcterms_title":["Lonnie King, 28 September 2009."],"dcterms_type":["MovingImage"],"dcterms_provenance":["Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-086/ohms"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection, ROGP 086, Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Libraries, Athens, Georgia, 30602-1641."],"dlg_local_right":["Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule."],"dcterms_medium":["oral histories (literary works)","interviews"],"dcterms_extent":["1 interview (93 min.) : sd., col."],"dlg_subject_personal":["King, Lonnie C., 1936-","Bond, Julian, 1940-2015","King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"gych_rogp_087","title":"Tom Houck, 28 September 2009.","collection_id":"gych_rogp","collection_title":"Reflections on Georgia Politics oral history collection, 2006-2010","dcterms_contributor":["Short, Bob, 1932-"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, Georgia, 32.75042, -83.50018"],"dcterms_creator":["Houck, Thomas, 1947","Short, Bob, 1932"],"dc_date":["2009-09-28"],"dcterms_description":["Tom Houck discusses growing up in Boston before moving to Atlanta to work in the Civil Rights Movement and in television. He recalls meeting Martin Luther King, Jr., at the Selma to Montgomery March. Houck recalls his work with the Southern Christian Leadership Conference and explains the organization's purpose and people. He discusses answering Martin Luther King's mail for the SCLC, having dinner at the King house, and becoming the Kings' driver. Houck recalls several personal stories relating to the King family. Houck recalls Dr. Martin Luther King loving to read, swim, and play the lottery. He discusses Coretta King's involvement with the civil rights movement and mentions her fundraising work for the SCLC. Houck discusses demonstrations such as open housing demonstrations, the Poor People's campaign, and store picketing. He recalls that Dr. Martin Luther King, Sr., did not participate in politics but was friendly with Georgia governors. Houck explains how Maddox's election made many activists uncomfortable. He recalls being arrested 18 to 20 times in the course of his activism. Houck discusses Zell Miller's involvement with civil rights and his recollections of Maynard Jackson and Andrew Young. Thid interview takes place at Manuel's Tavern and Houck explains who Manuel Malouf was and the history of the tavern. Houck recalls Zell Miller's campaign for lieutenant governor and comments on his friendship with both candidates. He weighs in on whether the civil rights movement is dead. Houck describes how he got into talk radio and television as a political commentator and comments on the state of party politics in Georgia.","Thomas Houck was born in Cambridge, Massachusetts, on August 21, 1947. He dropped out of high school at age 15 and joined the Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC) to work under Hosea Williams. In 1965, he met Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., at a meeting of the SCLC, and in 1966 he came to Atlanta and became the King family's personal driver. Later, he became an organizer for the SCLC, and was active in numerous demonstrations and marches. He filed a court case, Houck and Williams vs. Birmingham-Jefferson County, which led to the desegregation of Southern jails. Houck went on to help campaign for various Atlanta mayors and governors, including Maynard Jackson and Zell Miller, and started doing commentary for WGST Radio. He then went on to host various politically-oriented radio and television shows, retiring from full time broadcasting in 2001.","Finding aid available in repository.","Interviewed by Bob Short."],"dc_format":["video/mp4"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection","http://sclfind.libs.uga.edu/sclfind/view?docId=ead/RBRL220ROGP.xml"],"dcterms_subject":["Southern Christian Leadership Conference","Civil rights demonstrations--Georgia","Civil rights movements--Georgia","Civil rights--Georgia","Political campaigns--Georgia","Civil rights","Civil rights demonstrations","Civil rights movements","Political campaigns","Georgia"],"dcterms_title":["Tom Houck, 28 September 2009."],"dcterms_type":["MovingImage"],"dcterms_provenance":["Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-087/ohms"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection, ROGP 087, Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Libraries, Athens, Georgia, 30602-1641."],"dlg_local_right":["Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule."],"dcterms_medium":["oral histories (literary works)","interviews"],"dcterms_extent":["1 interview (87 min.) : sd., col."],"dlg_subject_personal":["Houck, Thomas, 1947-","Jackson, Maynard, 1938-2003","Shipp, Bill, 1933-","King, Coretta Scott, 1927-2006","Miller, Zell, 1932-2018","King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"gych_rogp_085","title":"Tyrone Brooks, 02 September 2009.","collection_id":"gych_rogp","collection_title":"Reflections on Georgia Politics oral history collection, 2006-2010","dcterms_contributor":["Short, Bob, 1932-"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, 39.76, -98.5","United States, Georgia, 32.75042, -83.50018"],"dcterms_creator":["Brooks, Tyrone, 1945","Short, Bob, 1932"],"dc_date":["2009-09-02"],"dcterms_description":["Tyrone Brooks discusses his family and childhood in Warrenton, Georgia, and his early start in civil rights activism. He recalls meeting Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and picketing segregated businesses. Brooks recalls his work with the Southern Christian Leadership Conference and friendship with Hosea Williams and Ralph David Abernathy. He comments on the Montgomery bus boycott, the inception of the SCLC, and Dr. King's teachings based on Ghandi's non-violent civil disobedience. Brooks discusses the SCLS's relationship with other civil rights organization such as the NAACP and the planned sit-ins in Greensboro, North Carolina. Brooks discusses his friendship with Lonnie King, a student civil rights activist. He recalls being arrested over sixty times in the course of civil rights protests and his participation in the Poor People's Campaign. Brooks recalls fasting in a Washington, D.C., prison. Brooks recalls his experience with Bloody Sunday in Selma and its influence on politics in the South. He also discusses how the Voting Rights Act and Civil Rights Act changed Southern politics. Brooks discusses the importance of SCLS's need to adapt to present-day issues such as education and economic development. Brooks explains how he became interested in the politics, his campaign for State House, and his time in legislature. He discusses his involvement with the changing of the state flag, judiciary reform, and the Moore's Ford Bridge lynching case.","Tyrone L. Brooks was born in Washington, Georgia, on October 10, 1945. He grew up in Warrenton, and at age fifteen volunteered with the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. Brooks attended Howard University, Atlanta University, and the Harvard University John F. Kennedy School of Government. In 1967, he became a full-time staffer at SCLC. In 1980, he was elected to the Georgia House of Representatives as a Democrat. He has sat on numerous committees, including Economic Development and Tourism, Governmental Affairs and Retirement, and Appropriations. Brooks has served as president of the Georgia Association of Black Elected Officials and is a member of the Georgia Legislative Black Caucus.","Finding aid available in repository.","Interviewed by Bob Short."],"dc_format":["video/mp4"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection","http://sclfind.libs.uga.edu/sclfind/view?docId=ead/RBRL220ROGP.xml"],"dcterms_subject":["Southern Christian Leadership Conference","National Association for the Advancement of Colored People","Poor People's Campaign","Civil rights--United States","Civil rights movements--Southern States","African Americans--Civil rights--Georgia","African Americans--Civil rights--United States","Political campaigns--Georgia","African Americans--Civil rights","Civil rights","Civil rights movements","Political campaigns","Georgia","Southern States","United States"],"dcterms_title":["Tyrone Brooks, 02 September 2009."],"dcterms_type":["MovingImage"],"dcterms_provenance":["Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-085/ohms"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection, ROGP 085, Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Libraries, Athens, Georgia, 30602-1641."],"dlg_local_right":["Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule."],"dcterms_medium":["oral histories (literary works)","interviews"],"dcterms_extent":["1 interview (102 min.) : sd., col."],"dlg_subject_personal":["King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968","Williams, Hosea, 1926-2000","Brooks, Tyrone","Abernathy, Ralph, 1926-1990"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"gych_rogp_082","title":"Bill Lee, 05 June 2009.","collection_id":"gych_rogp","collection_title":"Reflections on Georgia Politics oral history collection, 2006-2010","dcterms_contributor":["Short, Bob, 1932-"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, Georgia, 32.75042, -83.50018"],"dcterms_creator":["Lee, William J., 1925","Short, Bob, 1932"],"dc_date":["2009-06-05"],"dcterms_description":["Bill Lee discusses growing up in Clayton County and being drafted into the Navy after graduation. He describes how he became interested in politics while serving as a page for the General Assembly. Lee discusses his decision to run for legislature as a 19-year old and his election in 1956. He recalls the experience of being a freshman in state legislature and disagreements betwen Governor Griffin and Lieutenant Governor Vandiver. Lee discusses the legislative appointment of Governor Maddox, the move for legislative independence from the governor, and his friendship with Tom Murphy. Lee elaborates on Tom Murphy's time in legislature. He mentions Murphy's disagreements with Zell Miller. Lee recalls working on the Industrial Relations Committee, the Parks and Recreation Committee, and the House Rules Committee. He describes the purpose of the Rules Committee. Lee comments on desegregation, the Sibley Commission, and the county unit system. He also discusses the prevalence of caucuses in legislature. Lee reflects on his 42 year record in the legislature and on how the path to Governorship passes through the legislature. He also comments on party politics in Georgia, reapportionment, and drafting the state budget. Lee recalls the green door budgetary drafting committee, Zell Miller's flag controversey, and the Julian Bond controversy. Lee discusses his constitutents' reactions to integration and his work with bringing Clayton State University to his county.","Finding aid available in repository.","William J. \"Bill\" Lee was born in Forest Park, Georgia, on December 15, 1925. He served in the U.S. Navy from 1944 to 1946. In 1960, he earned his law degree from Atlanta Law School. In 1956, he was elected as a Democrat to the Georgia House of Representatives. He continued to serve for forty-two years, making his the longest uninterrupted run in the house by any representative. As a state representative, he served as chairman of the Rules Committee and of the House Democratic Caucus. In 1965, the Board of Regents authorized the establishment of three junior colleges, and Lee secured one for Clayton County in 1969. This eventually became the four-year Clayton State University. In 1998, he declined to run again, and worked as an aide to Georgia Speaker of the House Tom Murphy. In 2002, Murphy was defeated, and Lee retired from politics.","Interviewed by Bob Short."],"dc_format":["video/mp4"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection","http://sclfind.libs.uga.edu/sclfind/view?docId=ead/RBRL220ROGP.xml"],"dcterms_subject":["Georgia. General Assembly. House of Representatives","Democratic Party (Ga.)","Apportionment (Election law)--Georgia","Segregation--Georgia","Elections--Georgia","Governors--Georgia","Legislators--Georgia","Political campaigns--Georgia","Apportionment (Election law)","Elections","Governors","Legislators","Political campaigns","Segregation","Georgia"],"dcterms_title":["Bill Lee, 05 June 2009."],"dcterms_type":["MovingImage"],"dcterms_provenance":["Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-082/ohms"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection, ROGP 082, Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Libraries, Athens, Georgia, 30602-1641."],"dlg_local_right":["Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule."],"dcterms_medium":["oral histories (literary works)","interviews"],"dcterms_extent":["1 interview (57 min.) : sd., col."],"dlg_subject_personal":["Bond, Julian, 1940-2015","Lee, William J., 1925-","Vandiver, S. Ernest (Samuel Ernest), 1918-2005","Miller, Zell, 1932-2018","Griffin, Marvin, 1907-1982","Murphy, Thomas Bailey, 1924-2007"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"gych_rogp_078","title":"Charles Campbell, 14 May 2009.","collection_id":"gych_rogp","collection_title":"Reflections on Georgia Politics oral history collection, 2006-2010","dcterms_contributor":["Short, Bob, 1932-"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, 39.76, -98.5","United States, Georgia, 32.75042, -83.50018"],"dcterms_creator":["Short, Bob, 1932","Campbell, Charles E., 1942"],"dc_date":["2009-05-14"],"dcterms_description":["Campbell discusses growing up in Georgia and attending Emory. Campbell recalls his friendship with Senator Richard B. Russell, how he came to know Russell, and serving as Senator Russell's Chief of Staff. Campbell explains how Russell went out of his way to meet and interact with newly elected senators and how Russell asked the 4H club to choose his interns. Campbell discusses the Russell family and their political inclinations. He discusses Senator Russell's early start in politics, from his first election as a Representative from Barrow County to his governorship as a 31-year old. Campbell comments on Russell's leadership in the senate, explaining how Senator Russell to the Appropriations Committee and the Agriculture Appropriations Subcommittee. Campbell also comments on Senator Russell's friendship with Senator Talmadge. Campbell explains Senator Russell's friendship with Lyndon B. Johnson and describes his influence on making Johnson Majority Leader of the Senate. He discusses how Russell opposed the Vietnam War and his interest in national defense and agriculture. Campbell recalls Senator Russell's dislike of foreign aid and running a deficit and comments on what Russell would say of current legislative practices and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Campbell discusses Senator Russell's friendship with John F. Kennedy and his subsequent appointment to the Warren Commission. Campbell goes on to explain the deterioration of Senator Russell's relationship with Lyndon B. Johnson. Campbell discusses Senator Russell's position on Civil Rights and segregation. He also recalls the rumors that Carl Sanders was going to run against Russell in 1966. Campbell also recalls working with David Gambrell after Russell's death and his subsequent involvement in politics, including his experience working with Senator Talmadge. Campbell comments on party politics in Georgia.","Finding aid available in repository.","Charles Campbell was born in 1942 in Atlanta, Georgia, and grew up in Jackson, Georgia. He attended Emory University, and graduated from the University of Georgia. He met Senator Richard B. Russell when he introduced him for a Blue Key speech at UGA. He went to work as Russell's legislative assistant in Washington, D.C., and eventually became his executive secretary. Upon Senator Russell's death in 1971, Campbell returned to Georgia and practiced law in Atlanta while remaining involved in politics and managing campaigns for Herman Talmadge. Campbell retired from the law firm of McKenna, Long and Aldridge in 2009, ranked among America's top 100 lawyers.","Interviewed by Bob Short."],"dc_format":["video/mp4"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection","http://sclfind.libs.uga.edu/sclfind/view?docId=ead/RBRL220ROGP.xml"],"dcterms_subject":["Georgia. General Assembly. Senate","United States--Warren Commission","Elections--Georgia","Governors--Georgia","Legislators--Georgia","Politicians--Georgia--Interviews","Political campaigns--Georgia","Vietnam War, 1961-1975","Elections","Governors","Legislators","Political campaigns","Politicians","Georgia"],"dcterms_title":["Charles Campbell, 14 May 2009."],"dcterms_type":["MovingImage"],"dcterms_provenance":["Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-078/ohms"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection, ROGP 078, Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Libraries, Athens, Georgia, 30602-1641."],"dlg_local_right":["Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule."],"dcterms_medium":["oral histories (literary works)","interviews"],"dcterms_extent":["1 interview (96 min.) : sd., col."],"dlg_subject_personal":["Johnson, Lyndon B. (Lyndon Baines), 1908-1973","Talmadge, Herman E. (Herman Eugene), 1913-2002","Gambrell, David Henry, 1929-","Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963","Campbell, Charles E., 1942-","Russell, Richard B. (Richard Brevard), 1897-1971"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"gych_rogp_076","title":"Aubrey Morris, 08 April 2009.","collection_id":"gych_rogp","collection_title":"Reflections on Georgia Politics oral history collection, 2006-2010","dcterms_contributor":["Short, Bob, 1932-"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, 39.76, -98.5","United States, Georgia, 32.75042, -83.50018"],"dcterms_creator":["Morris, Aubrey R., 1922-2010","Short, Bob, 1932"],"dc_date":["2009-04-08"],"dcterms_description":["Aubrey R. Morris was born in 1922 in Roswell, Georgia, and grew up writing for the local newspaper. He attended the University of Georgia and studied journalism. He worked as an intern for the Atlanta Journal, and edited the UGA yearbook. On the day of his college graduation, he started as a reporter for the Atlanta Journal, and covered Atlanta and city hall. He also started the first public information office at the state transportation department. After thirteen years at the Journal, he joined WSB-TV, and helped to develop the first radio news department in Georgia. He covered the major events of the day--at local, national, and international levels--including desegregation, the Vietnam War, and Martin Luther King, Jr. He served thirty years as news and editorial director at WSB, retiring in 1987. Aubrey Morris died April 14, 2010.","Morris discusses his long journalism career, including his days as a journalism student at the University of Georgia, his work at the Atlanta Journal, and his reporting at WSB Radio. He describes his experience working closely with Atlanta's mayors and reporting on major events like the 1962 Orly plane crash and the Winecoff Hotel fire. Morris also talks about reporting on events of the civil rights movement, such as an early speech by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., near the state capitol and the integration of the University of Georgia.","Finding aid available in repository.","Interviewed by Bob Short."],"dc_format":["video/mp4"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection","http://sclfind.libs.uga.edu/sclfind/view?docId=ead/RBRL220ROGP.xml"],"dcterms_subject":["WSB (Radio station : Atlanta, Ga.)","University of Georgia","Henry W. Grady School of Journalism and Mass Communication","Atlanta journal-constitution","Journalists--Georgia--Interviews","Journalism--Georgia","Civil rights movements--United States","Civil rights movements--Georgia","School integration--Georgia--Athens","College integration--Georgia--Athens","Aircraft accidents--France--Orly","Aircraft accidents","Civil rights movements","College integration","Journalism","Journalists","School integration","Universities and colleges--Alumni and alumnae","France--Orly","Georgia","Georgia--Athens","United States"],"dcterms_title":["Aubrey Morris, 08 April 2009."],"dcterms_type":["MovingImage"],"dcterms_provenance":["Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-076/ohms"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection, ROGP 076, Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Libraries, Athens, Georgia, 30602-1641."],"dlg_local_right":["Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule."],"dcterms_medium":["oral histories (literary works)","interviews"],"dcterms_extent":["1 interview (105 min.) : sd., col."],"dlg_subject_personal":["Morris, Aubrey R., 1922-2010"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":"Aubrey Morris interviewed by Bob Short \r\n2009 April 8 \r\nAlpharetta, GA \r\nReflections on Georgia Politics \r\nROGP-076 \r\nOriginal: video, 105 minutes \r\n \r\nsponsored by: \r\nRichard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies \r\nUniversity of Georgia Libraries \r\nand \r\nYoung Harris College \r\n \r\nDate of Transcription:  September 29, 2009 \r\n \r\nBOB SHORT:  Im Bob Short and this is Reflections on Georgia Politics sponsored by Young Harris College, The Richard Russell Library and the University of Georgia.  We are delighted today to have as our guest Aubrey Morris, former Atlanta Journal Reporter and Dean of the Atlanta Radio Newsmen.  Aubrey, were delighted to have you.  Glad youre here.  Were honored. \r\n \r\nAUBREY MORRIS:  Thanks.  Delighted to be here.  Who were those sponsors again? \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Young Harris College. \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  I think of Zell Miller when I think of Young Harris. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yes, a very famous alumnus.  \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  Right \r\n \r\nSHORT:  The University of Georgia, of course. \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  The University of Georgia  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And the Richard B. Russell Library. \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  One of the very fine institutions at the university.  Very proud of it and what its doing. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Good.  All right, you area native of Roswell, Georgia. \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  Roswell, part of metro Atlanta, native all the way, several generations. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You went to school there in public schools and then you went to the University of Georgia. \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  Correct. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Tell us about your experience at the university. \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  Well, first of all you've got to get to the university.  How in the world would a guy, country farm boy from Roswell, Georgia get to the University of Georgia to the Henry W. Grady School of Journalism which I had heard about from two very good teachers I had in Milton High School in Alpharetta which is the high school I attended just up the road from Roswell in the Fulton County School System.   Well, they encouraged me to study journalism and said, The only thing you can do is go to the University of Georgia, and I thought it was predestined that I go to the university.  So I ended up at the University of Georgia with a couple of paper bags, I think, and maybe an old worn out suitcase as we called them back then and a few rag tag pieces of clothing.  One neck tie, I remember, and I remember on the day I arrived at the university at the bus station, west of the arch and the next block headed toward Atlanta well, there was the bus station.  I guess its still there today in Athens.   \r\nGot off the bus and by the way, I had been writing for the local weekly newspaper in Roswell in Alpharetta throughout high school and when I got off the bus another aspiring young university student had arrived from somewhere down in South Georgia by another bus and he started across the street and immediately was hit by a taxi cab.  So what did Aubrey Morris do?  He reverted to his original calling.  He became a reporter, got out my notepad, pencil, went over and asked the policeman the name of the student-to-be.  Oh, hes not hurt badly.  Were going to send him over to St. Marys Hospital and have him checked over.   \r\nI wrote his name down, quoted the officer and said what happened; he just stepped in front of a taxi.  I guess he was enamored at arriving in Athens, wasnt watching where he was going.  Maybe he was looking at the co-eds already.  But this student, I remember I got his name and before I went to register at the university I went to the Athens Banner-Herald within the very hour, saw Byron Lumpkin, who was then managing editor of the Banner-Herald and introduced myself.  Told them I just arrived to studied journalism and the university, told him what I just witnessed and I told him I had the name of the guy.  He wasnt hurt badly, he would be okay but he was taken to the hospital for treatment.  Hed just arrived and quoted the policeman saying he would be okay, no charges were made against the taxi driver.  That basically was the story, a couple of paragraphs.  And Mr. Lumpkin was so taken by this way of getting a news story about a new arriving student being injured by a taxi that he had decided to run a little box alongside the story about the reporter who reported it, Mr. Aubrey Morris from Roswell reported this story and he had arrived to study journalism at the university. \r\nYou can imagine how a new student at the university would have been taken aback by that sudden opening of the door to fame and fortune. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  So you studied journalism at the university and upon graduation you got a job with the Atlanta Journal? \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  Well, I studied journalism at the university and during the summer between my junior and senior years I got a job as an intern at the Atlanta Journal, covered city hall and there I got to know the great Atlanta mayor William B. Hartsfield.  And he really inspired me even more to continue with my career.  So I went back to the university, edited The Pandora during my senior year and on the day I graduated from the university I lived in the old college right across from the law school and I took my few belongings outside and I left immediately for Atlanta.  Rode the bus, by the way, back to Atlanta, went to register at the YMCA and went to the Atlanta Journal that afternoon thinking, well, Id be able to go to work that Monday morning.  It was Saturday in the early afternoon and Fred Moon said, Well, hello, welcome back, Aubrey, said, Youre our new police reporter.  Youre covering the police beat tonight.  So I went to work the night the day I graduated from the university having pledged that I would come back to work.  They wanted me just to stay but I told them I was going back.  Theyd asked me to be editor of The Pandora, the annual at the university which I was proud to do.  Id already picked my staff.  We had it all lined up.  So I went back and thats the day I began at the Journal.  Dont ask me the year.  I think it was 46, 45, 46. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You mentioned Mayor Hartsfield.  Tell us a little bit about Mayor Hartsfield. \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  Well, as soon as he found out I was at the University of Georgia he, shall we say, took a liking to me.  He was his own best press agent.  He knew how to get in the newspapers, always with something positive about Atlanta.  But he also was a man of great erudition, is that the word?  Hes very suave, very smart, very good politician and he knew that it was good to be a member and to be caught hanging out to use a modern phrase with certain people if it were suitable.  So he found out that I was at the university, what clubs or organizations I was a member of.  Id been elected to the Grid Iron Club, the secret society, Grid Iron Secret Society at the university.  He then said, Well, can you help me get in?  Can you recommend me as a member?  And I remember this about Hartsfield in particular, I passed along his desire to become a member of this select group which it still is and he even asked me to go with him and his chauffer to their initiation meeting at the Grid Iron Club when he was initiated into Grid Iron.  And I found out a little bit about Hartsfield believing in each man looking after his own job and letting the other man handle his assigned task. \r\nOn the way back to Atlanta late that night somewhere outside Monroe, Georgia the police vehicle -- the mayor and I were sitting on the back seat, the lieutenant driving for him was sitting on the front seat and we were headed back to Atlanta and the right rear tire blew out about 2:00 in the morning.  And Hartsfield just sat back there in the back seat.  I sat there and I started to get out.  The lieutenant started getting out to change the tire.  I started to get out and help him.  Hartsfield, Get back in here.  Thats his job.  Said, You sit in this.\"  And this was in winter, a cold winter night.  Hartsfield insisted on the lieutenant changing the tire which he did.  I said, Well, this guys an interesting character.  I think Ill get to know him a little bit better, which I did.   \r\nAnd Hartsfield was a very obstreperous individual.  He let me know all about him.  Hed even invite me to his law office.  He had a lot of hobbies on the side.  One of them was mining.  He liked to prospect for minerals in the state of Georgia.  He had a wide variety of interests.  Well, he had an interest in everything, would invite me up there and then I got to know him.  And then one time Fred Moon my city editor at that time gave me a pointed question to ask Hartsfield when I arrived at city hall.  And I asked him and Hartsfield picked up a paperweight on his desk, threw it at me.  I dodged and it hit the door in the mayors office.  I said, Well, Im getting to know this guy.  Hes really getting to be my buddy I think.  So he threw the paperweight at me and then he let out a real wild laugh and his secretary came running in to see what had happened. \r\nHe said, Oh, nothings happened.  He reached over behind his desk there in city hall where he had a Coca-Cola cooler where the cokes were cooled by a block of ice and who saw to the steady supply of Coca-Cola there other than Bob Woodruff, who owned Coca-Cola himself and who was Hartsfields leading confidant among business people.  And Hartsfield reached back and got one of Mr. -- Coca-Cola came in everyday and stocked the thing with fresh Coke.  Got a coke and he and I drank a cold Coke and then we talked to some more and then he gave me the interview and I did the story, but I learned incidentally a little more about Mr. Woodruff.  Mayor Hartsfield, he consulted people all over the country -- high and low, people in high office, people in low, from the president on down whoever it was and he was just able to make decisions.  Like with Mr. Woodruff, he would ride around in a police car late at night, Woodruff would be on the front seat with the police lieutenant driving, Woodruff always smoking a cigar or chewing on one and Chief Jenkins, Mayor Hartsfield, and occasionally they would invite me.  As I say, Hartsfield took a liking to me and so therefore I cultivated that because I learned a lot that was going on.   \r\nSo we were riding around early one Saturday morning.  Hartsfield, Woodruff, Chief Jenkins -- Herbert Jenkins, and myself.  Woodruff looks out and sees people loitering on the street corner.  He takes a drag on his cigar and says, Herb, clean up that mess.  We just keep driving right along.  So thats the way politics was in Atlanta when people of power and immense knowledge of the city and its people who knew people all over the city where they could afford to make decisions in the best interest of law and order if you want to call it that, safety on the streets.  At that time they simply didnt allow people--there was an ordinance against idling and loitering.  Youd be thrown in jail if you even suggested somebody be arrested for that today, wouldnt you?  Would you?  I dont know.  Maybe you have a right to idle and loiter but not to threaten other people on the street. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mayor Hartsfield was very interested in aviation. \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  Hartsfield and Atlanta are the same on aviation.  Now, I know we have Hartsfield-Jackson International Airport but lets go back to the beginning.  Hartsfield is a member of the Board of Alderman I think it was called back then.  He was head of the aviation committee and saw the chance for the city to purchase the old Candler Field which was a privately owned airport beyond on Hatfield owned by a member of the Candlers.  I think it was Asa Candler of Coca-Cola.  Im not sure.  But it was own by the Candlers and was called Candler Field.  Thats where owners of private aircraft could take these new toys and go out and have weekends for recreation, fly wherever else they wanted to.  But Hartsfield saw what was coming because also at that same time came on the scene a guy named Mr. C. E. Woolman who had been a crop dusting pilot, owned a crop dusting company.  A crop duster, by the way for you people who are not familiar was a guy pilot who flew a plane that spread poison over cotton fields and crops to kill insects.   \r\nWell, Mr. Woolmans background was in Louisiana in the cotton, the delta cotton land in Mississippi and Louisiana but he wanted to get into the airline business and he came to Atlanta to begin Delta Airlines.  And if you mention Hartsfield you have to mention Mr. Woolman who had his shop setup right there right at the edge of Hapeville at the old, old terminal.  That was Atlantas first terminal.  Now, I dont know -- there were Eastern Airlines.  There were other pioneers like Eddie Rickenbacker, the famous World War I pilot.  Rickenbacker started Eastern, Woolman started Delta and together with Hartsfield, they built the airport, taking it away from the upstarts -- Birmingham, Alabama really was ahead of Atlanta in the early days.  Hartsfield saw what they were doing and he said, I want that for Atlanta.  Birmingham almost got ahead of Atlanta a couple of times until Hartsfield boldly started expanding, you know, and convince the business community, the travel industry that Atlanta could become a travel center, which he set out to do.   \r\nWhen I talk about Hartsfield, though, having built the Atlanta Airport, well, thats because for a long time thats what it was called -- Hartsfield.  People called it Hartsfield instead of being named after William B. Hartsfield.  Hartsfield I would say was the idea man and I think in retrospect Hartsfield would give due credit to those who followed him, who picked up the cue that he gave the city not only during the time that he was mayor but the years to come even up to today because theyve all been imbued with Hartsfields spirit to push Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport. \r\nI remember, for example, when Mr. Woolman was still on hand when he began service to Paris.  I dont know whether it was Delta, Pan Am, International Flight or what it was but Mayor Andrew Young was mayor of Atlanta at that time.  I remember a great speech that Mayor Young--later Ambassador Young--made in Paris about Atlanta and about the South, about the leadership that Atlanta was poised to give the world when it showed what interracial progress was meaning to a big city and would continue to mean.  Then, of course, Mayor Maynard Jackson, superb leadership.  I covered many, many speeches when Mayor Jackson bragged about the Atlanta Airport, when he, himself, went all over the country to get funding to expand to build new runways, to get new technology.  Mayor Ivan Allen, Mayor Sam Massell, all of those who have followed right up to Shirley Franklin have done--and I am indeed proud of what they have done to enhance what Hartsfield thought about way, way, way back in Atlanta history. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Speaking of flights to Paris, you were on hand to cover the story of the Orly crash that took so many Atlanta lives. \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  Yes, one of the--I guess in reporter and newspaper or journalist parlance you refer to a big story.  Well, I dont refer to it as a big story just for that reason.  It was a big story because it affected Atlanta in a big way because it, in effect, wiped out much of the civic and cultural leadership of this city.  I said it didnt wipe it out but it wiped out a lot of it.  Just like the Winecoff Hotel fire of years earlier, the Orly Airport crash in 1962 decimated the city of well over 100 of its leaders in the field of the arts in particular connected to the Cultural Arts Center it was called.  This is where some 120 of Atlantas leaders, member of the Atlanta Art Alliance had flown to Paris and to other major cities in Europe, Rome, London, Berlin to study what they were doing in the area of enhancing all elements of the arts for their cities.   \r\nThis group had been in these cities in Europe for about two weeks.  I covered their departure earlier from Atlanta and former Mayor Hartsfield because Mayor Ivan Allen was mayor at this time.  He had asked former Mayor Hartsfield to see the group off when they left Hartsfield Atlanta Airport at that time.  That was in 62.  Well, I imagine my horror on a Sunday morning when the day that I knew they were to return to Atlanta I got a telephone call at church.  An usher came up to my pew and said, Mr. Morris, youre wanted at WSB.  King Elliot, the newsman in the WSB Newsroom, the news announcer said the plane crash at Paris has killed the Atlanta people.  I knew immediately what he was talking about and I said, Well, Ill be at the station right away.  My wife had remained home that day with our children and I left church alone, calling my wife and telling her I was going to the station. \r\nAnd immediately on arrival, I went to the Air France Office across from the Atlanta Journal Constitution Building on Marietta Street and the Air France staff was beginning to get over the old teletype a confirmed list of those who had died in the crash.  But by then it was almost 11:00, it was about 10:30 Sunday morning and Mr. Elmo Ellis, my boss, was at the station.  He and Rev. Harry Fifield the pastor of First Presbyterian Church, we were to go on the air, broadcasting as we had done for years the First Presbyterian Service at 11:00 and it was decided between Rev. Fifield and Mr. Ellis that instead of Rev. Fifield delivering his sermon at 11:00 on the 11:00 broadcast would be taken up with my use of the telephone in calling in the names of each victim of the Orly crash as it arrived on teletype. \r\nAnd at that time, one of the prominent business men was an Atlanta banker, Mr. W. O. Duvall, ran Atlanta Federal Savings and Loan Association and he was at the Air France office and it just occurred to me to get him to tell me a little bit about each one of these people.  So we preempted Rev. Fifield's sermon with a broadcast and confirmation of each person and Mr. Duvall was able almost without exception to tell me something personal about each of those people.  They were all so important and he knew everybody in Atlanta anyway.  As for the crash itself, how does a reporter--remember back then to be on television would have been filming something and supplying the film to New York and putting it on the network.  Well, that was that and I was frustrated because Mayor Allen -- I went to city hall by the way after leaving the Air France office, I went to city hall.  Mayor Allen had arrived wearing his farming clothes.  He liked to go to his farm down in Heard County, Georgia and piddle around on a Sunday afternoon but just as he got down there, he had gotten out in the fields, called back into his telephone, got the word, came immediately to city hall.  I met him there.  We interviewed him there and I said, What are you going to do?  And he decided he and Edwin Stern, the Atlanta City attorney would go to Paris on the next flight they could get out of New York and it would be leaving at 5:00.  And I called my wife and I said, Im going to get on the plane, bring my passport to WSB, Elmo Ellis going to bring me to WSB to take me to the airport.  The mayor said I could go along.  I told him I was going along. \r\nSo he took me along and we arrived in New York.  Mayor Hartsfield, by the way, saw us off at the airport.  Stern, the mayor, and myself arrived in New York.  I told the mayor, he said, What do I do? Because every reporter in New York was at Idlewild Airport.  Well, is that Kennedy today?  I think, yeah.  Every reporter was there.  All of the TV film cameraman, radio people.  They were there and I said, Well, you speak from your heart.  Just dont be uptight about it.  Just go out and meet them and whatever they say, do it.  Answer them.  Boy, he did a superb job.  But man, I tell you, he showed his manhood in my heart by the way he handled that.   \r\nFlying out over the Atlantic about midnight that night, headed into Paris, we could look and see the northern lights of the Aurora Borealis, over the North Pole and the mayor was looking out there and just very quiet and I just put my hand on his and I said, Youre doing okay, man.  Said, Youre going to get a different audience when you get to Paris.  Sure enough he did.  A phalanx of photographers, reporters, stumbling all over each other wanting to get to the mayor and everything.  He hadnt even been to the site yet.  So I told one of the aides to the Paris mayor, I said, Well, tell the guys the mayor will meet with them but he wants to visit the site first.  How would emotionally be able to respond?  Furthermore, I knew that they would get a better story.  He hadnt even been to the site yet.   \r\nThe mayor got in a limousine, we drove to the site.  The mayor looked at all of the luggage of the victims strewn about this apple orchard and a little village at the end of Orly Airport called Villeneuve and the plane had aborted the take off and it crashed and burned in this apple orchard.  And the mayor was coming up and then is when I, sort of, kicked in as a report to the mayor, I said, Mayor, I think the French authorities a little bit overreacted.  I said, You tell them you will see the press now.  So they were all crowded at the fence some distance away and they gave the signal and they came like a horde up just as the mayor started looking at everything and they were able to record his reaction as he saw it for the first time, see.  In fact, I remember Mayor Ivan Allen looking down.  I wont call the name of the victim who died in the crash but the mayor looked down and saw a necktie that he had given one of these victims as a Christmas present.  \r\nI remember that necktie, and then he called out who he gave it to.  That was on Monday morning.  They followed all Monday, rest of Monday, Tuesday and by Wednesday Attorney Stern and I suggested to Mayor Allen that he hold an ecumenical service.  Both of us knew the dean of the American Cathedral in Paris and its on Avenue George Fifth, a very huge cathedral right in the heart of the city and since these were Americans we figured that would be the proper place and the dean at the cathedral had been dean of Holy Innocence Episcopal Church in Atlanta.  We both knew him.  So he arranged the ecumenical service which was held on Wednesday morning at the American Cathedral with the dean from Atlanta saying a goodbye to the Atlantians who had died in the crash and the most memorable music the ecumenical choir sang during that service was an old prayer from the Sarum Primer form the Sarum Rite of the Anglican Church.  It appears in hymnals under various forms.  Its called God Be In My Head, or from the Sarum Primer, God Be In My Head, the first few lines: \r\nGod be in my head and in my understanding.  God be in my heart and in my keeping.  God be at mine end and at my departing. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  One of the stories you covered while you were with the Atlanta Journal was the tragic Winecoff fire. \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  That was when I was a single man living still -- as really a cub reporter, a young reporter on the Journal and I got a call from an Atlanta Fireman who was a watchman in downtown Atlanta.  His name was Swamp Walker.  They called him Swamp because he hung out in what was then known as the underground which is now underground Atlanta, the entertainment site and these were really dark, dank, under the railroad overpasses, dark corners and everything, where winos and people like that would hide out and the police would drive the paddy wagon in there and load up two or three times a night.  Well, Swamp Walker was doing his checking down in there one night to see if there was any fire danger and he looked up and saw flames coming out of the Winecoff Hotel up Peachtree Street. \r\nHe called me.  Id made great effort to promote sources at the fire department, too.  And he called and said, Scoop, the Winecoffs on fire.  He called me Scoop.  That was his nickname.  Some of my police friends were calling me that by then and you think I need some water?  My wife is handing me a glass of water.  Thank you, darling.  And Swamp Walker said, The Winecoffs on fire.  I picked up the phone in my rooming house at Juniper and Fifth Street and the dispatcher Yellow Cab Company, Bella Isle ran Yellow Cab Company, one cab company in Atlanta.  I said, Is the Winecoff on fire?  Said, Yes, it is.  He said, Theyre jumping out everywhere.  Yellow Cabs headquarters was across the street from the hotel.  He said the same thing.  People were jumping out of the hotel.  Tragedy.  So my cab arrived in no time.   \r\nI was down there, first reporter on the scene of the Winecoff which at that time was the worst hotel fire in history.  I think there may have been another one equally as bad since then.  Im not positive but up to that time it was advertised as fire-proof and it was a very popular hotel.  Now, I remember Governor Marvin Griffin was governor at that time and the Georgia YMCA, High Y, the YMCA, YWCA young men and women in those youth groups from throughout the state of Georgia were in the Winecoff that weekend for the upcoming legislative session in January.  And most of them housed there.  Most of the over 100 people who died were these young people.  There were other guests from all over the country, too, of course. \r\nAnd when I arrived the tragedy was still going on and I called the city editor and we had a whole staff of reporters and photographers in addition to me.  I remember Bill Key, our Chief rewrite man -- Bill Key, if there was a big story, I dont care if it was a star reporter anywhere out in the country he called in the store to Bill Key.  He grasped the drama of the event and the guy on an old manual typewriter hunt and peck, he wrote the story.  He wrote it just like that and handed the copy over to the city editor immediately so Bill Key did the first story and it was a big story, tragedy, tragedy, tragedy.  There were many heroes in that fire.  Some of them are firemen who rescued people.  On the 40th anniversary of the fire there was an observance at the old firehouse on North Avenue where a very touching moment occurred.   \r\nOn the event of that fire this police captain whose name Im sorry, I cant remember, stationed at North Avenue, he rescued a woman and her small baby from one floor, brought her down to another and then brought her down--the ladder truck would reach only so high and then he got her from one floor down to the other by bringing her out the window tied to sheets, she and the baby and then transferred them to that fire ladder and brought her down and saved her.  And on the 40th anniversary of the fire heres this woman about 45 years old, came up and gave this fire captain a big hug, said, Youre responsible for me being here.  Her mother had already passed away but she was there to thank him for saving her back then. \r\nI like to catch the drama of people.  People are always big hearted.  People are kind.  You have to show them the call of duty and they respond. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, after 13 years with the Journal, Elmo Ellis lured you away into radio and you and Elmo Ellis came up with probably the first full-fledged radio news department in the city of Atlanta. \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  That is true but, Bob, theres a little bit of forerunner to that.  As police reporter I knew that I wanted to expand my horizon.  I really wanted it to be a broader reporter rather than just covering the tragedy, the pitfalls of human behavior as exemplified in each days television news cast.  I wanted to get out and cover a broader aspect of life.  So actually what I did, a friend of mine at the University of Georgia who was working in the Marvin Griffin administration prevailed on me to leave the Journal and to go and start the first public information office at the state transportation department. \r\nState transportation department was in the news back then, too.  Always is.  And I went over and worked for about nine months under Roger Lawson who was then director of the highway department and frankly that was when Governor Griffin was beginning a new program of road building called the Rural Roads Authority.  We really took Georgia out of the mud.  He instituted of building, of paving roads in rural communities all over Georgia, a great monument to a great governor.  Well, that lost its allure and I liked being a reporter.  I couldnt stand being away from the newsroom.  So even when I was at the University of Georgia I had wanted to be in radio.  So Elmo Ellis was general manager of WSB, our program manager I believe at that time and wanted to begin in earnest the coverage of news by radio.   \r\nThis sounds interesting today with the advent of television and all of the other technology and communications that has come about but here was this new device called radio and WSB Radio had been the first radio station in the South, begun in March 1922, the year of my birth, by the way and Elmo wanted me to come out and begin a radio and news department.  He had news announcers but they would have to come in and deliver the news on the air and there wouldnt be anybody to plan radio news coverage, so that was my job.  I was a one-man news department until I built up a staff and I hired some guys who later became great radio reporters and television reporters and we built it on the sound of the news.  After all, thats what radio is, is sound.  You know, thats the reason radio is still a creative medium.  Radio still has its place. \r\nAnd I discovered that by the use of the telephone that I could cover the news anywhere simply by direct call to the station from the scene.  If it were a live interview using the mouthpiece of the telephone simply as the microphone for radio.  And other stations started doing the same thing in Atlanta and pretty soon the networks were doing that in New York.  I wouldnt say that I pioneered that.  Im sure it was being done everywhere all over the country.  Im sure that I was not the pioneer but I certainly knew about it and I started doing it in a big way and thats the way we were able to get a lot of scoops on the news. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  I can remember you also had a program called Open Mic.  \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  Yes. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  That was a great program.  I remember it very well. \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  Is this daily or weekly? \r\n \r\nSHORT:  I think it was daily. \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  Daily, well, it was sort of a man on the street interview type thing where you take a topic of the day, you would have your microphone.  In fact, people would see me or another WSB reporter on the street holding a WSB mic.  Hed just be standing on the street holding the mic.  I guarantee you within five minutes somebody would come up and say, Mister, would you like to interview me?  And I would. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  How was covering the news for radio different from covering the news for a newspaper? \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  It was immediate and it had to be very succinct, very brief, very precise because the details were left for news casts or for print or for a more extended interview for television which soon was very much on the scene and then along came combined radio and television interview which is what we call talking heads.  You didnt see a lot of action on the scene photography.  I remember Joe Fain, one of the early photographers.  You remember Joe Fain, dont you? \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Very well. \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  Joe Fain was a very good photographer.  He and I would go to cover a story, I would hold his mic for television.  I would hold my mic for radio recorder and we would do a dual interview and that portion of the television news would be my talking head interviewing whoever I was talking to.  Or I could have been doing a stand up alone myself, just a commentary describing something or I could have been interviewing a politician, which I often did. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, lets talk about some of those politicians you interviewed.  I guess Herman Talmadge must have been governor when you -- \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  Yeah, I get a little bit personal about almost all of them.  I remember Senator Herman Talmadge.  I remember succinct quotes that they had.  Talmadge had one when we got involved in the Vietnam War.  Of course, Dean Rusk, the Georgian was secretary of state.  The cold war came along.  We got involved in Vietnam after the battle of Dien Bien Phu in which the French War of Indochina, you remember, had been fighting that battle back and forth, back and forth and we were really drawn into it but it really tied in very, very closely to the spread of communism throughout China and Russia.  So therefore it became a matter of great urgency and so all of the politicians supported it until it became an unpopular war very much as the war in Iraq.  We went in for what the politicians and what I personally think was a just and noble and real national purpose in going into Vietnam to protect freedom and to protect our country because we had become a world power and if we didnt exercise it, it would be a vacuum and somebody else would.   \r\nSo we went in to Vietnam and then we went into Iraq when President Bush, the War on Terror, these things--and this has to do with the sophistication of the media.  Everybody, every consumer of the news nowadays in effect becomes his or her own reporter or analyst or critic and while I dont like to be critical I think the news media is simply evolving.  We have to except the fact of the change of technology.  We find new ways to do it.  If were going to have a war we sure had better find a better way to inform the public as to why were there and what were doing there because when--you see for the first time as you do today the caskets draped with American flags bringing men and women killed in a foreign country back to their loved ones back here.  You've got to approach war in a different way.  This doesnt mean the wars not going to continue to happen but we have to get the United Nations more involved again.   \r\nWe have to get NATO, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization more involved again.  These organizations that men like Senator Richard B. Russell, Senator Herman Talmadge, Congressman Carl Vinson, some of the others who are such--we called them hawks back then.  They were very much for defense.  Were it not for the fact that Richard B. Russell was head of Senate Arm Services Committee and Carl Vinson head of the House Armed Services Committee -- had headed those departments during World War II, we would not have been able, I guarantee you, to mobilize, to prepare to defeat Hitler in World War II.  We almost waited too late as it was.  So I look at some of those people, they were often the controversy of the days news.  That was the segregation/integration battle where they all got caught--history caught them at a time when the world was beginning to change, communications were changing, people were changing, their views were changing.   \r\nThe dramatic change of history in this country began, in my view, at the end of World War II.  Or maybe during the war we were beginning to see the change because even during the war when African/American citizens of this country werent even allowed to be in the same units with other fighting men and women in the military, all of that finally changed.  Well, we saw that these changes were coming and as I look back on a long career of almost a half century, reporting these changes as an observer, not a prejudiced observer but hopefully always an open-minded reporter, I was enabled to witness the appearance of Reverend Martin Luther King, Sr. in police court representing black men and women who had been imprisoned or Judge Prudence Herndon -- then a black woman attorney, representing them in court. \r\nAnd then when police chief Herbert Jenkins decided to hire the first black policeman and fireman in the fire department, Hartsfield, again, when they came on the scene I was there to report it, you see.  I saw these men of good will; Hartsfield was the exponent of the idea \"the city too busy to hate.\"  Ivan Allen carried it on to its fullest during a critical period.  Progressive mayors like Mayor Andrew Young, people like that, Mayor Maynard Jackson, Sam Massell, all of these people came along and Atlanta was very fortunate along with another thing had.  Atlanta had a group of five predominantly black as they were called universities, the Atlanta University Center.  All of the leaders without exception, the leaders of these colleges, Dr. Benjamin Mays, the mentor of Martin Luther King, Jr.   \r\nI remember him.  They taught others who then taught future generations.  Andrew Young on the scene, you know, people like John Lewis, the people that got their teaching from people who knew the change was going to occur and to me, having witnessed that change was one of the high points of my career.  And I would think mentioning Martin Luther King, I remember when Martin Luther King, Jr. -- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. went to deliver his first public speech from the back of a flatbed truck on the Metro Street Bridge right in front of the state capital.  Is that it on the west side of the capital?  And he made his speech.  I recorded it on a windup tape recorder, an old tape recorder that you had wind by hand and then I took this audio tape back to WSB, put it on an editing machine, cut out sound bytes or excerpts from Martin Luther King, Jrs speech.  This is about 4:00 or 4:30 in the afternoon and I said, Im going to make the 6:00 news for this. \r\nI made the decision, the announcer, we all communicated.  We knew it was coming up.  It would be the lead story that night and it was the lead story at 6:00 on WSB, the lead story at 11:00, every half hour throughout the evening it was, in fact, this thing that had happened in front of the capital.  But by mid morning the next morning Mr. Elmo Ellis had gotten a telephone call from a very irate woman--a white woman--in northwest Atlanta.  This woman wanted to know from Mr. Ellis, \"Why is WSB putting this negro\"--I use that word because that was her word--\"why is he putting him on WSB?  We dont need hear that.  And Mr. Ellis simply said, Well, let me let you talk to our news director, Aubrey Morris.  Which he did.  He transferred her in.  She repeated the same thing only she was a little bit more caustic.  She was down the line in authority.  Mr. Morris, why did you put this negro on the air?  And I said, Because its news.  Because he made a speech in front of the state capital and somebody making a revolutionary speech in front of the state capital, if that isnt news, what is?  You tell me. \r\nShe said, Well, we dont need to hear that.  I said, What do you mean, you dont need to hear it?  She said, We never heard this before.  And I said, Well, youre going to be hearing a lot of it.  If you want my opinion because youre going to be hearing a lot of it right here on WSB because our job is to report the news.  And her finally remark, Well, Mr. Morris, I just wish I had died before it all came along. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You were active then in the integration of the University of Georgia and the schools of the state. \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  In the covering.  Yes, very definitely because the University of Georgia being my alma mater, I remember Charlene Hunter and Dr. Hamilton Holmes.  I sent Scott Harrington, one of my new reporters I think who had worked in Connecticut, sent him over to do the reporting from the campus at the university.  Of course my job as news director was to be in the station to see what we needed to do and oversee our coverage.  But that morning I went out to the--before he left for Athens I went out and he was escorted, as I recall, by agents of the state government -- Dr. Hamilton Holmes, a young man in northwest Atlanta who wanted to study pre-med at the university.  And I went out and interviewed his parents as he was leaving to head to Athens.  That was a way I felt we could cover it and I interviewed his mother and father and it was a great day for them and then I think any open minded Georgian says its a great day for Georgia.  It was a major day in history, wasnt it?  Great day for the university. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  It kept it open. \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  That kept it open and, of course, all of that was done simply because the leadership of the University of Georgia, the Board of Regents, the leadership, the president of the university, the state leaders, the governor, the lieutenant governor, the adjutant general, state board of education certainly because they knew the public school integration was coming, too, see?  They all knew that the time had come and that Georgia would lead the South.  If not lead it, be certainly among the leaders in peaceful desegregation. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  I believe you covered the Sibley Commission Studies. \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  Oh, yes.  You know, there are several desegregation basically of public education, public accommodation throughout the state of Georgia.  Didnt involved just leaders.  It involved progressive business leaders, education leaders, community leaders, newspaper, journalists throughout the state of Georgia.  You know, coalescing to help to make Georgia a state that we could all be proud of rather than the laughing stock of a nation or being stuck with something we didnt really believe in because we knew it was coming, we knew in our hearts that God makes decisions and that we cant be God and play one man against another.  That was the way we approached it and when the University of Georgia -- I knew there would be no trouble.  I knew it had to be covered, though.  I knew that it was an item of public interest and I look back and I have nothing but praise for everyone who participated over at the university, everyone who had a part in it.  Because it wasnt just what happened that day.  That was just the beginning of something that happened.  Its now a university of equal opportunity. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Aubrey, if you will Id like to go back to 1956 when the Georgia legislature passed a series of laws prohibiting funding for local schools that were closed.  That led to the Sibley commission. \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  Effectively leaving out those that integrated. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Right, that lead to the Sibley Commission and as I recall you covered most of the meetings of that commission around the state. \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  That is correct.  I as news director of WSB radio made it my personal responsibility to cover not a few of them, not part of them but all of them because I wanted to know what all the people of the state of Georgia geographically thought.  So that meant Mr. John Sibley, the prominent Atlanta attorney who had held many positions of importance and the state board of regents and public positions of importance locally and very prominent attorney and banker, trust company of Georgia, highly respected, well, he was named chairman of the Sibley Commission.  And the then governor, that would be Governor Earnest Vandiver, named him chairman and asked him to write a report but there was no prohibition against news people covering the meetings.  Of course that was one of the purposes -- to air and see what the people thought.  So that provided me as a radio man a good chance to broadcast the voices of people who knew the importance of their public schools and who were not afraid to speak out.   \r\nThere were those on both sides of the question who appeared at every meeting, though.  Mr. Sibley gave each one of them their due time in a courteous manner to express their opinions but in retrospect it appears to me that the hearings of the Sibley Commission gave the political leaders every ounce of political leverage they needed to stand by a continuous operation of public education in the state of Georgia in every aspect from public schools to the university.  I went to these hearings.  I reported and as I recall they were held weekly, so they gave plenty of time to do a thorough job of reporting and this included the most vehement opposition to integration of schools.  I included the opposite end.  I included the middle of the road.  I included every aspect.  Frankly, we aired what people had to say.  And when you talk about the education of your children you speak from the heart, you speak your innermost feelings.  And it was an emotional albeit historic and certainly culturally enlightening experience for the people of Georgia. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Aubrey, its been said of you that you would go anywhere to get an interview.  Is it true that you once interviewed President Jimmy Carter in the men's room at the WSB radio station? \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  You mean Ive got to reveal all of this?  Okay, you want the wherewithal. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Exactly. \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  This was during the--what happened in Teheran where some of our people were kidnapped, Jimmy Carter tried to rescue them.  What was that crisis? \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Hostages were taken over in -- \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  In Teheran remember?   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yes. \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  This was during Jimmy Carters presidency and it lingered on for several days, the hostage taking and this country was really getting ready for some action.  Secretly, of course, the military prepared several different plans for their rescue and I dont remember what had taken place the night before but I think it was an aborted rescue and Jimmy Carter was at his farm in Plains that Sunday night and this was Monday morning.  I went into WSB Monday morning and it was about, 5:00, 5:30 and the guard at the back door said, The presidents inside.  And I said, What?  I knew darn well it was something.  He was fixing to make some kind of a statement.  He may have been about to announce that they had launched this rescue.  Im sorry.  I dont remember the specifics but I remember it was an important day in that major news event and I went rushing inside and the man in the news room said, Yeah, the presidents downstairs.  Hes getting ready to do a national feed to the TV network.  Its going to be a joint feed to the nation.  And I said, When is he going to do it?  They said, At 7:00  I said, How am I going to do this?  I think it was at 8:00.  Little mixed up in my times.  At any rate, I knew that I had time to get an interview with Carter before he spilled the news to the rest of the country.  So I had pretty good relationships with the president since hed been in the legislature from Plains and during his time as governor.  \r\nI went rushing downstairs to the TV studio and they said hes in the makeup room where they dust him up to get ready.  Went in there, No, hes just gone to the mens room.  So it was rushing on the time for my 7:00 news.  And I think about six or seven minutes before then and he was in the mens room and I said, We got a major news cast at 7:00.  Hes going to talk to the nation.  Why should I wait an hour?  So the secrete service agents outside the mens room said, Hes in the booth.  I said, Well, how long is he going to be?  And I heard this voice say, Is that you, Aubrey?  I said, Yeah, its me.  He said, Well, come on in.  So I went in the mens room and he was there at the booth--the toilet booth.  Shall we say, you know, making the fine adjustments to his coat and everything and about to walk out of the booth and I said.  Im going on the air in six minutes.  I want you to tell me basically what youre going to say about the crisis in Iran.  And he gave me about three or four minutes.  As he came out to be rushed upstairs to get ready for the TV thing, I was getting ready to go on the air without doing any editing on the tape.  So we just got the engineer to slap it up on there. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, you interviewed during your career every president from I guess Truman to at least Regan.  Do you remember anything special about some of those interviews? \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  Yes.  Harry Truman.  You know, Truman never visited Atlanta as president but he came pretty soon after he left the office of the presidency and I got a tip from one of the airline employees.  He was traveling by commercial plane and I and a group of other reporters went out and met him at the plane and walked down the steps, went in the old terminal and he sat down and all the other reporters--I usually would be ready to throw in a question and everything and I said, Lets get a sound byte.  Im going to ask you Mr. Truman, how does it feel to be an ex-president?  He shook his finger up and said, Son, Im not an ex-president, Im a former president. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Thats a good story. \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  Very short and to the point.  Im going to tell you another one on that.  I dont know whether you want to record this or not.  I think maybe you might not.  Truman was a very temperamental individual and you remember it was Truman at Yalta with Churchill and others and you remember the existence of the state of Israel came into being.  What was the name of the ship that kept taking refugees from Germany, getting them into Israel?  What was the name of that?  Odyssey?  At any rate I'm going to tell you this and Ill tell you what I did with it.  When Truman got off the plane the Jewish War Veterans Auxiliary was celebrating Jewish War Veterans Day which was separate from the regular poppy day, November 11th when Veterans Day is celebrated.  They have a different day of observing it and they pass out poppies raising funds for Jewish war veterans.  And this lady came up to pin a poppy on Truman.  He said, Get away, lady, get away.  What are you trying to do, lady? He didnt want her touching him.  Well, Mr. President this is a Jewish War Veterans Day and we want to pin a poppy on your coat lapel.  He gave her a dressing down just like he did me, he said, Why dont you Jews celebrate war veterans day when everybody else does.  He said, I created Israel.  And then the woman and everybody was taken aghast and I got back to WSB and I was listening to the tape.  I came to that, I just flipped it out and laid it aside.  I said, Im not going to use that.  I didnt use it.  Now, thats what you would call an old time editor versus today.  That might have been used today.  Am I wrong or not?  He was beside himself but he was mad because they were not celebrating war veterans day when everybody -- you know, he was a big World War I veteran himself. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Captain in the military, yes.  Any other presidents you remember? \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  Yes, Eisenhower.  Ill give you a little rundown on President Eisenhower.  Eisenhower came to play golf at the August National Golf Course, stayed in Mamies Cabin, which they built over there.  And on this particular visit to Augusta, Mr. George Humphrey who had a plantation at Thomasville, Georgia secretary of commerce I think he was a big Rotarian and he spoke to a group of Rotarians centered around their Monday regular meeting at the Atlanta Rotary Club at the old [indiscernible] Plaza Hotel.  And I arrived there, took the elevator up to the Rainbow Roof where he was to speak.  And when I got up there these secret service agents said, You cant come in here.  I said, I cover this meeting every Monday.  Yeah, Ill be covering the meeting.  Dont you worry about that.  So they asked somebody from the rotary, Yeah, Mr. Morris, hes well-known here, yeah, he covers it.  I did, I covered it, so pretty soon Harry, this military aide that Eisenhower had, Harry Vaughan, remember him? \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  Captain or Sergeant Harry Vaughn arrived and I marched over to him directly.  I said, Im Aubrey Morris WSB.  I cover this meeting every Monday and, of course, if I can Id like to get a few words from the president before his speech.  He said, Well, what can I do?  He had already said, Theyre aint going to be any press.  This is going to be off the record.  So Harry Vaughn decided to open it up after I started talking to the president anyway without asking Harry.  Thats the way you had to get a lot of stuff. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, you got a lot, didnt you? \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  I dont tell it facetiously.  I dont do this at all.  That was just my technique.  Because I love people.  I love the challenge. \r\nSHORT:  How about Haile Selassie? \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  Haile Selassie, not many reporters get an opportunity to talk to an emperor but his Highness Haile Selassie, emperor of Ethiopia came to Atlanta not long after the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.  Went out to South View cemetery to visit his grave.  There were a large number of reporters there.  This was to be a very brief visit where the emperor would simply arrive, visit the cemetery, pay his respects, put a wreath at Dr. Kings grave and then leave and go back to his private jet at the airport.  And he placed the wreath, went back to his limousine.  Instead of going to where he placed the wreath, I went to the limousine and talked to his military aide of the Ethiopian army.  I said, Is it okay if I get just a few words with the royal highness before you leave?   \r\nAnd his royal highness came in and got in the back seat of the limousine.  A little lap dog, a little wire haired terrier dog that was shedding his hair pretty badly at that time.  He jumped in the emperor's lap and he started petting the little dog.  And I was invited to get in the limousine, sit right by the dog which was between me and the emperor and I turned on the machine.  The emperor's English was a lot better than mine, very well educated and he had some very profound words to say although very brief and he told me, \"Well, just dont take over a minute,\" which I didn't.  I was so awe struck by this experience that when the limousine pulled off all of the other reporters came down and said, Whatd he say? Whatd he say?  I said, Listen to it on WSB.  So I went rushing over to a service station to a telephone to do a live report, cued up the tape machine to where I could play what he said, got ready for it, learned that I had forgotten to turn on the machine.  Fortunately, my lame brain did remember the exact words that he had said. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  So you were able to report anyway. \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  I reported it anyway. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Lets talk a little minute about WSB.  WSB has been the premiere radio station in Atlanta for a long time but nowadays theyve turned into a talk station.  What do you think was the reason for that? \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  Simply innovation.  You know, I might answer that by saying, when you get in your automobile now do you prefer to listen to music, to talk, or to information, or do you have a special digital radio where you listen to transmissions of all sorts, all of the technology thats available in the world?  Well, the first person that ever asked me what I thought about talk radio, I said, Well, nobody ever asked me when I was putting all these people on the air who are making the news, in a way it was talk radio.  I think that the advent of talk radio -- beginning in New York, Chicago and other places, Los Angeles -- was simply an innovative way for radio to provide more variety for its listeners whether it was shock radio, shock/talk or whatever you want to call it, opinionated, political, right wing, left wing, conservative or what.  My assessment is that this type of entertainment and after all isnt communications of all type, showbiz.  Its showbiz how youre getting someones attention.  You can bore them.  You can put them to sleep.  You can get the quick turn off like I used to call people who complained at WSB.  I said, Well, just turn it off.  I would invite them to turn it off.  I said, I hope youll keep listening but if you just cant stand it, but this is the way it is.\" \r\nBut on, like--who are these people?  We had one the other day.  It was on one part of Obamas trip to Europe where some guy on CNN during a talk, he had another guy who had his same point of view.  Their idea was to blast this thing without any reply, no counter view, no opposing opinion.  In other words to me it would have been better had they had, as we did on many occasions on WSB, we held discussion programs but if it were an interview with some person about a particular book, for example.  For example, if someone wrote a book on Watergate, I interviewed principle writer on Watergate, what was his name? \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Who?  The Washington -- Bob Woodward. \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  Yeah, Bob Woodward.  I interviewed Bob Woodward at WSB and I played the devils advocate in the book a lot, too.  I said, Well, to what extent is the news media, the press, under the guarantees of the United States constitution, what liberty does it not give --\"  As my dean at good ole UGA, Dean John Drewry of the School of Journalism told his students, This does not give you liberty to call fire in a crowded theater.  It gives you the responsibility, and I think thats what our founding fathers meant, the responsibility to open up a breath of fresh air into clouded issues, to shine some light upon a subject and to give the viewer or the listener or the reader an opportunity to assess the situation themselves where they do the thinking.  They think what they want to instead of having someone come out and never once did I attack anybody I was interviewing.  I was there to get their opinion.  You wouldnt do that.  You dont do that. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Let me ask you this question.  How in your opinion do modern broadcast journalists compare with those of your day? \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  There are probably many more consumers of modern broadcast journalism or modern journalism today than ever before.  More consumers of information getting it online with new technology; however, at my age Ill have to admit upstairs in my home I have two computers.  We have email access and I use a computer for writing today.  I was much more comfortable when I had an old linotype machine and then a manual typewriter and then an electric typewriter.  But I think you've got to be a sophisticated viewer or reader.  You got not to be a dummy and not ask questions just because somebody says something.  You dont take it as the gospel truth.  You ask your own questions.  Use your own intellect to apprise a situation like a presidential campaign, how do you come to a consensus.  For example, if youre a modern consumer, my grandchildren are far, far ahead of me.  They understand every aspect of computers.  In fact, one of my grandchildren now a junior in high school is teaching computing and working in the computer department of a local college. \r\nSo it doesnt mean you dont have these things but you got to have the overall general education.  A liberal arts education needs to be there to go with every other aspect that you focus on.  In other words, youve got to be able to -- \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Speaking of education, if you were asked by a young person today who is interested in a career in broadcasting -- news broadcasting, what advice would you give them? \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  Get a liberal arts education focusing on economics, politics, geography and especially languages and sociology. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, Aubrey Morris, its been a great pleasure to be with you today.  Weve enjoyed this conversation and I want to thank you on behalf of Young Harris College, the Richard Russell Library, the University of Georgia and myself for being our guest. \r\n \r\nMORRIS:  Thank you, Joe, by the way, Joe is an old fellow Atlanta Journal reporter.  From how many years ago, Joe?   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  I was there in the 1950s. \r\n \r\n[END OF RECORDING] \r\n \r\n       "},{"id":"gych_rogp_071","title":"George Berry, 02 February 2009.","collection_id":"gych_rogp","collection_title":"Reflections on Georgia Politics oral history collection, 2006-2010","dcterms_contributor":["Short, Bob, 1932-"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, 39.76, -98.5","United States, Georgia, 32.75042, -83.50018"],"dcterms_creator":["Berry, George J., 1927","Short, Bob, 1932"],"dc_date":["2009-02-02"],"dcterms_description":["George Berry discusses his childhood in Blairsville, Georgia. He discusses attending public schools in Blairsville, going on to Young Harris College, and enlisting in the U.S. Army. Berry recalls identifying with the New South movement and his attempt to seek employment in Atlanta Mayor Ivan Allen's administration. He discusses his jobs in the tax office, finance department, and administrating governmental grants. Berry recalls the larger grants being associated with the expansion of Hartsfield Airport. He comments on being appointed Deputy Chief Administrative Officer in the Mayor's Office. Berry comments on Mayor Allen's leadership during the Civil Rights Movement. He also comments on Ivan Allen's successor Sam Massell. Berry discusses the transition from the Board of Aldermen to the City Council under Mayor Maynard Jackson. He recalls Mayor Jackson appointing him as commissioner of aviation and the issues faced by the airport expansion. Berry discusses his relationship with the business leaders and misunderstandings between business and politics. Berry recalls the increase of foreign company involvement in Georgia he witnessed as the Commissioner of Industry and Trade. He attributes this to the success of the airport and recalls being appointed commissioner by Governor Joe Frank Harris. Berry discusses his unsuccessful campaign for Lieutenant Governor and his work after public service. He describes the East Lake project led by Tom Cousins. Berry discusses his work on the Metropolitan Atlanta Olympic Games Authority. He also discusses problems faced by the state and the prospective for the New South vision to be recognized.","Finding aid available in repository.","George J. Berry was born in Blairsville, Georgia, on July 5, 1937. He attended Young Harris College. Upon discharge from the U.S. Army in 1962, he went to work in the finance department of the City of Atlanta. Berry was chosen to be the deputy chief administrative officer in Mayor Ivan Allen's administration. Mayor Sam Massell promoted him to chief administrative officer during Atlanta's critical transition from primarily white to mixed race leadership. Under Mayor Maynard Jackson, Berry was appointed Commissioner of Aviation in 1978. There, he oversaw the development of terminals and runways in the Atlanta airport. In 1983, Berry became the commissioner of Industry, Trade and Tourism for the state of Georgia. He remained in that position until 1990, when he ran an unsuccessful campaign for lieutenant governor. He left politics, and became senior vice president of Cousins Properties, Inc., a successful property development firm in Atlanta.","Related materials held in the following collections of this repository: Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection, ROGP 148 George Berry on James Carmichael; Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection, ROGP 000-02 George Berry on James Carmichael; George J. Berry Collection of Photographs.","Interviewed by Bob Short."],"dc_format":["video/mp4"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection","http://sclfind.libs.uga.edu/sclfind/view?docId=ead/RBRL220ROGP.xml"],"dcterms_subject":["Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport","Olympic Games--1996 :--Atlanta, Ga.)","Olympic Games","Politicians--Georgia--Atlanta--Interviews","Civil rights movements--Georgia","Civil rights movements--United States","Civil rights movements","Politicians","Politics and government","Atlanta (Ga.)--Politics and government","Georgia","Georgia--Atlanta","United States"],"dcterms_title":["George Berry, 02 February 2009."],"dcterms_type":["MovingImage"],"dcterms_provenance":["Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-071/ohms"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection, ROGP 071, Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Libraries, Athens, Georgia, 30602-1641."],"dlg_local_right":["Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule."],"dcterms_medium":["oral histories (literary works)","interviews"],"dcterms_extent":["1 interview (61 min.) : sd., col."],"dlg_subject_personal":["Jackson, Maynard, 1938-2003","Allen, Ivan, 1877-1968","Massell, Sam","Harris, Joe Frank","Berry, George J. 1927-"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":null},{"id":"gych_rogp_068","title":"Glenn Anthony, 29 January 2009.","collection_id":"gych_rogp","collection_title":"Reflections on Georgia Politics oral history collection, 2006-2010","dcterms_contributor":["Short, Bob, 1932-"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, 39.76, -98.5","United States, Georgia, 32.75042, -83.50018"],"dcterms_creator":["Short, Bob, 1932","Anthony, Glenn, 1924"],"dc_date":["2009-01-29"],"dcterms_description":["Glenn Anthony was born in Lenoir City, Tennessee, in 1924. He attended the University of Tennessee and studied journalism. He transferred to Florida State University and graduated in 1952. He first worked for a company newspaper at the Oakridge National Laboratory in Oakridge, Tennessee. After his marriage, he started work at the Palm Beach Post Times in Florida. When he reported for the United Press International, he covered various civil rights groups in Alabama and Tennessee. He entered politics when he went to work for the Georgia Chamber of Commerce, lobbying for business interests. He was involved in establishing numerous programs, including Stay and See Georgia, a travel program. He lobbied for over twenty years with the Georgia Chamber of Commerce and the Georgia Forestry Association.","Finding aid available in repository.","Related materials available in the following collections of this repository: Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection, ROGP 146 Bill Hardman; Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection, ROGP 056 Mary Anne Summers.","Glenn Anthony recalls his childhood in Lenoir City, Tennessee, and subsequent Navy service in the South Pacific. Anthony discusses his work at the Oakridge National Laboratory, the Palm Beach Post Times, and United Press International. He recalls working in Montgomery during important civil rights events such as the bus boycott. Anthony discusses his friendship with Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Anthony recalls being reassigned to Atlanta to work as a capitol reporter. He discusses his experience as a journalist covering Governor Marvin Griffin, including Griffin's indirect answers and his investigations into corruption in the Griffin administration. Anthony discusses Governor Sanders' approach to integration, his ties to Washington, D.C. and his role in bringing professional sports teams to Atlanta. He also comments on what makes a good lobbyist, a bad lobbyist, and public perception of what lobbyists do. Anthony recalls being hired by the Georgia Chamber of Commerce to lobby for business interests. He discusses coordinating governmental affairs tours with political participants such as Governors Sanders, Vandiver, Talmadge, and Maddox and Congressman Landrum. He also mentions his work with Congressional dinners and the Star Student program. Anthony explains the nicknames he has been assigned over the years such a \"joree\" \"tiger\" and \"Colonel.\"","Interviewed by Bob Short."],"dc_format":["video/mp4"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection","http://sclfind.libs.uga.edu/sclfind/view?docId=ead/RBRL220ROGP.xml"],"dcterms_subject":["Journalists--Georgia--Atlanta--Interviews","Lobbyists--Georgia--Interviews","Civil rights demonstrations--United States","School integration--Georgia","Political corruption--Georgia--History","Professional sports--Georgia--Atlanta--History","Tourism--Georgia","Civil rights demonstrations","Journalists","Lobbyists","Political corruption","Politics and government","Professional sports","School integration","Tourism","Georgia--Politics and government","Georgia","Georgia--Atlanta","United States"],"dcterms_title":["Glenn Anthony, 29 January 2009."],"dcterms_type":["MovingImage"],"dcterms_provenance":["Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-068/ohms"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection, ROGP 068, Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Libraries, Athens, Georgia, 30602-1641."],"dlg_local_right":["Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule."],"dcterms_medium":["oral histories (literary works)","interviews"],"dcterms_extent":["1 interview (44 min.) : sd., col."],"dlg_subject_personal":["Talmadge, Herman E. (Herman Eugene), 1913-2002","Anthony, Glenn, 1924-","Vandiver, S. Ernest (Samuel Ernest), 1918-2005","Maddox, Lester, 1915-2003","Sanders, Carl, 1925-2014","Griffin, Marvin, 1907-1982","King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968","Landrum, Phil M. (Phil Mitchell), 1907-1990"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":"Glenn Anthony interviewed by Bob Short \r\n2009 January 29 \r\nAtlanta, GA \r\nReflections on Georgia Politics \r\nROGP-068 \r\nOriginal: video, 45 minutes \r\n \r\nsponsored by: \r\nRichard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies \r\nUniversity of Georgia Libraries \r\nand \r\nYoung Harris College \r\n \r\nDate of Transcription:  September 23, 2009 \r\n \r\nBOB SHORT:  Im Bob Short and this is Reflections on Georgia Politics,  sponsored by Young Harris College, The Richard Russell Library and the University of Georgia.  Our guest is Glenn Anthony, a noted Georgia political reporter and well-known lobbyist for the Georgia Chamber of Commerce.  Welcome, Glenn. \r\n \r\nGLENN ANTHONY:  Thank you very much. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You know, I told the people over at the university that I was looking forward to this conversation, because you and I are contemporaries in Georgia politics.   \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Right.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  We came along at the same time, we were both journalists and we have had many of the same friends for many years.  But before we get to that, lets talk about Glenn Anthony and Lenoir City, Tennessee. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Well, Bob I was born in Lenoir City in 1924 in the depth of the Great Depression and Im still haunted by some of those terrible years that I spent there.  But I graduated from high school in 1943 and went into the Navy and spent most of my career down in the South Pacific on this charter transport.  I came back to the states after the war and I went on the GI Bill to Rice University of Tennessee.  Majored in journalism and I had a friend -- a fraternity brother there -- who had an opportunity to go down to Florida State University to get some course work that you couldnt get at the University of Tennessee.  So, he came back to Knoxville with this glowing story about that campus down there.  He said, You cant believe this.  He said, They've got 1,500 men and about 5,000 ladies.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Right.  \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Well, it was -- prior to the Florida State University it was called Florida State College for Women and then they made it co-educational in 1946 to take the overflow from the University of Florida from the veterinary -- I mean, the vets that were coming in there.  So, I said, Well, Ive got to go down and check on that.  So, I spoke to my dad and mother about it and dad said, Well, how are you going to get down there?  I said, Well, I guess Ill ride a bus or hitchhike.  So he said, Well, okay.  Ill give you the bus fare.   \r\nSo he gave me the bus fare.  I went down.  I liked the campus down there and everything.  So, I came back to Knoxville, and at that time, I decided that I was going to definitely go.  And I asked the university to transfer my transcript down there, which they did.  And in so doing I lost a lot of credits, so I finally graduated now in 1952.  But prior to that, I met a lady named Janet Anderson.  She was a wonderful, talented lady.  She was a violinist.  She was born and raised in New York City and her family moved down to Titusville, Florida, where her grandfather had been a successful land developer down there.   \r\nSo, she came to Florida State and thats where I met her.  And we got married while we were still in college.  And the financial situation was so bleak that she went back to Titusville and worked in a dental office there to help me get through college.  So I did.  I graduated in journalism and my first job was at the Oakridge National Laboratory in Oakridge, Tennessee.  Thats where the hydrogen bomb was developed.  So, I stayed there, -- worked on a company newspaper there for about a couple years, I guess.  And Janet wanted to go back to Florida where her family was living in Palm Beach County.  So I went back to Palm Beach and got a job on the Palm Beach Post Times.  Stayed there a couple of years and then from there we went -- came back to Knoxville.   \r\nAnd at that time -- then I was hired by the United Press International.  They sent me to Nashville a year or so and then they sent me down to Montgomery, Alabama and I was there when Martin Luther King began the bus boycott.  I was there when Rosa Parks, who is one of the main movers and shakers in Montgomery, refused to give up her seat and move to the back of the bus.  So I stayed there for a couple of years, and then I was transferred to Atlanta, where I worked at United Press International as a capitol reporter.  Stayed there for two years.   \r\nI was hired by the Georgia Chamber of Commerce to lobby for the business interests.  They had about 5,000 members in Georgia.  I was recommended to the job there by a fellow named Mike Cheatham.  And Mike was a very fine young man and he had spent some time there and the Coca-Cola Company hired him.  Theres an old war horse named Bobby Davis that hired Mike to go to Coca-Cola and work in government affairs there.  So Mike introduced me to the Georgia Chamber -- Walter Tates, an old warhorse.   And they hired me and I spent 18 and a half years there with them.  And I put together some governmental affairs -- tours there.   \r\nWhen I joined the chamber in 1959 they had a pre-legislative form that theyd go around the state for about ten days.  They were taking -- they would take a lawyer, who was skilled in the labor relations, and hed take a business man along to talk about issues.  So, that was 1959.  I went on a first tour and after I got back -- I finished and got back -- and I talked to Tates, I said, Why dont we get legislators and government officials to go on this tour?  So the Executive Committee okayed it.   \r\nSo the first tour that I took was 1960 with Carl Sanders.  He was there for Governor Ernest Vandiver.  Also, there was a fellow named Frank Twitty up in Brady County, so that was a very successful trip  So, the next year we put that together and several of the lobbyists had heard about the success of it, so they started signing up.  And we would work with the Georgia -- the local Chambers of Commerce and theyd put the program together.  Then wed bring the governmental affairs people in there and they ranged from Senator Herman Talmadge to Governor Lester Maddox, and we had -- during that period wed also have a member of Congress.  I think the first one to go on the tour with us was Phil Landrum up in North Georgia.  He was one of the authors of the Landrum-Griffin bill.   \r\nSo, after that program, we had one there called a -- let's see here.  What was that?  Yeah, a Congressional dinner.  We put that on each year.  And now the chamber had been putting this together and they would invite the Congressmen, Senators and members of the House for a dinner meeting.  So I suggested the next year, I said, Why dont we invite the staff people, too?  Theyre the people that I have to deal with.  So then we enlarged it and it became a very, very big dinner.  Sometimes wed have 500 people there.  The people who were -- the business people in Georgia, they would come up and they helped us with the expenses of increasing the size of this dinner.  It became a very successful program.   \r\nI think that -- but we had another program there at the Georgia Chamber that I got involved in.  It was called Stay and See Georgia.  We set up a travel department.  And the lady in charge of that, Mozelle Christian, she invited top travel writers from around the state -- I mean, around the country -- to come in and see Georgia on about a week tour of the state.  And it became very successful.  It was copied in other states.   \r\nWe also had a very popular Stay and See Georgia -- I mean, the Star Student Program, where we would select the star student and then the star student in turn would select his favorite teacher.  So, one of the offshoots of that was I had a friend at Pan American Airways.  He was Vice President for the South and I said, Is there anything you can do for us?  He said, Yes, I can.  I can give you and this student a trip anywhere Pan American services.  So we took that and that was my -- then for the next ten years we had that and it was my duty -- and I emphasize duty -- to accompany this young student all over Europe, South America, Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Peru -- went to all those countries --   France, London, Paris, Rome.  So I had that duty for ten years.  And so, that was a good addition to my program. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Glenn, before we get too far away from it, lets go back to Montgomery. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Yeah, okay. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You covered the Civil Rights movement in Montgomery, so you knew Dr. King. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Knew him very well.  After he made -- when that boycott -- that boycott first began, I got know him pretty well.  And after he started making some big news headlines, the Atlanta office of the United Press International called me and said, See if you can get an in-depth interview with this young preacher over there.  And so I called him up and he said, Yes, come on out to the House and well talk about what I have in mind.  So, I went out there.  I spent an hour or more with him, and this fellow was quoting poetry.  He was quoting the philosophers and he was a very bright man and I went back and told them in Atlanta.  I said, Youre going to hear from this fellow.  Hes got some talent.   \r\nSo he went on to win the Nobel.  You know what he did for the Civil Rights movement.  But that was a great part of my life during the period of two years I spent there, during that bus boycott.  I saw him even when he won the Nobel Prize.  I saw him a couple of times.  Hed always remember me and he was always very friendly.  So, I knew that he was going to make some news, which he did worldwide. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  So, you came then to Atlanta to cover the capital when Marvin Griffin was Governor. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Thats right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Marvin, of course, was a staunch segregationist and a very colorful man.  You remember much about him? \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Well, he had a great sense of humor.  And as I was a reporter, we'd come in this office, maybe half a dozen of us from the Atlanta Journal and the Constitution.     And it was hard to get anything out of him because he would turn our questions into humorous answers.  So the press, of course, really hit him.  He had some things going on in his administration that the public needed to know about.  So we reporters, we got down and tried to cover it all.  But even through all of those bleak days when he was going through this -- what somebody called the assassination of his character, and then somebody said, Well, what character does he have?  \r\nBut anyway, he had his brother Cheney.  He was in the office and he was his hatchet man.  I mean, he did all the gory stuff that had to be done in the administration.  We had an older gentleman there named Hamilton that was the Secretary of the Treasury.  And we had a fellow in the purchasing department; I cant remember his name right now.  But anyway, it was a very colorful administration.  Thats the part that I remember most about it. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  He called you Gentleman Jorees. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Joree, well, yes, he did.  He called all the reporters Jorees and the Joree is small bird, which traipses around in the meadows and picks up the droppings from the cattle and so forth.  So Marvin Griffin put us in with them.  After I joined the Georgia Chamber I decided to organize a golf tournament for all the news people in Atlanta and anywhere else in the state.  We called it the Joree Open and that program we carried for about ten or 12 years.  And we had all the top journalists in Atlanta -- the TV, print journalism -- we had them all.  They all came to the program and that was very good. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Were you covering the capitol when Governor Griffin and Lieutenant Governor Vandiver got into a big fight over money that Griffin wanted for rural roads? \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Yes, I was there, yeah.  Yeah.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  What do you remember about that? \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  A little bit vague on that, trying to remember the name of the highway department --  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Roger Lawson. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Roger Lawson from Hawkinsville, Georgia, I believe. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Right. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  And I think that bill was killed as I remember. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Right. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:   So, I was there for that. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, despite all of his trouble with corruption, Griffin turned out to be a fairly progressive Governor. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Yes, he did.  He had some good points and some good traits.  But now, Earnest Vandiver came in.  He was a quality individual -- a fine man, a fine person, a man of great character.  Wed just gone through those years with the Marvin Griffin administration and it was really a bright day in Georgia when Earnest Vandiver came in.   And he came in at the time during the integration movement and he said he would abide by the will of the people in Georgia in the South, that no school in Georgia would be integrated.  But then he backed off on that, as you know, and the schools weren't segregated. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And the University of Georgia. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Thats right.  The University of Georgia and -- lets see, Im trying to remember the names.  Cant remember right now. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Of the students? \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Hamilton Holmes -- \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Hamilton Holmes, yes. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  -- Was one, and the other was the young lady Charlene Hunter. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Charlene Hunter, right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Right, and they were the first students to integrate the University of Georgia.  Griffin ran again following Vandiver's term against a young state Senator from Augusta, Carl Sanders, who defeated him.  Most people think that Griffin lost the race because of charges of corruption, but there are others who think that Sanders just out-campaigned him and won.  What do you recall about that race? \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Hmm.  A little bit vague on that, but -- \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Some people think that the election of Carl Sanders in 1962 was one of the real turning points in Georgia history. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Absolutely.  Now, as I mentioned earlier, Sanders was the floor leader in the Senate and Twitty in the House, and there was one quality that Sanders had.  Now, when we would take this large group around the state to speak -- the Congressmen and a member of the Georgia legislature or the Georgia government -- and we had a lot of lobbyists in our group.  And after each evening session wed all gather in a room somewhere -- drink a lot of whisky, tell a lot of lies. \r\nBut the one person who did not attend those evening sessions was Carl Sanders.  He would always go to his room after the meeting and hed prepare for the next meeting.  We had a lot of times -- breakfast, noon and dinner -- breakfast, lunch and dinner, and he was very well-prepared in his statements that he made, and it was very obvious then that he was a serious guy.  And so, Frank Twitty -- he was a much better speaker than Twitty, and Twitty came at him with a -- he called the Senator my short shirted friend.  And that didnt go over too well with Sanders!  But anyway thats what it was.  Short-shirted friend! \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Actually, Governor Sanders was the first Governor that we had, as I recall, who had ties to Washington.  Most of our Governors had always cursed them and not gotten along with the federal government, but Sanders became a very good friend of Lyndon Johnson.  And as a result, it was a great help to Georgia -- from the federal government. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  And another thing Carl Sanders was instrumental in was getting the sports in this city -- I mean, professional teams.  Sanders was one of the leaders in that.  And few people know about that, but he was really, really big in that program. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  He had what, I guess, was called a moderate approach to the race issue during that period. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Yes, he did.  Yes. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And a lot of people think that when he ran for reelection in 1970 that that hurt him when he was defeated by Jimmy Carter.  Do you think thats true? \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Well, Im not sure about that.  I really am not, Bob.  I just dont know. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Let's talk for a minute about lobbying.  What makes a good lobbyist? \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Well, number one is honesty.  Youve got to deal with these legislators and be completely up front in dealing with them.  You cant come on and tell them two or three different tales and have to come back and say, Well, Im sorry.  So, I would say honesty is the number one.  I lobbied there for more than 20 years with the Georgia Chamber and the Georgia Forest Association, and I can say that at no period during that time did I ever have any problems -- individual problems with the legislators.    \r\nAnd I felt that -- I think they recognized me, because the House Representative commended me for my honesty and integrity.  Passed a resolution.  The Senate did likewise.  And Senator Bill English from Swainsboro, Georgia, introduced the resolution in the state Senate, commending me for my honesty and integrity.  So, those were quite a highlight of my career there.  And I was told by some of the old timers there that theyd never heard of a lobbyist in the history of this state ever being commended for the service.   So that was a very proud moment for me and my family. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, you deserved it.  But on the other hand, you took a lot of flack, also. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Yes, I did.  We had one instance that went all the way to the top with Governor Jimmy Carter.  He had Elliott Levitas, a Representative of DeKalb county, to introduce a bill, which was called Consumer Protection Legislation.  And so, after we analyzed it -- we had a table of accountants and tax lawyers and so forth -- they said, This is a killer bill for business.  And so, I rallied the troops then and we killed the bill.  And so after that, Jimmy Carter, in a press conference a few days later, he called me the most damaging lobbyist in the state, because I killed a bill that would have benefited the people of Georgia.  So, after that commendation from the Governor, my Board of Directors said, Charge on, Anthony. Youre doing your job, youre just doing it for free. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  They called you tiger. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  They called me tiger, hmm-mm.  It was a nickname. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, there must be a story behind that. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Well, when I got onto a project -- got onto a bill, you know, I charged -- I saw it to conclusion.  I would see that wed get the bills passed or killed and I was unrelenting in my time that I was involved in those legislations and I wouldnt give up.  So that was a -- that was an honor bestowed upon me by my fellow lobbyists.  They called me the Tiger.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Now they call you Colonel. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Colonel, thats right, yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  How did you get that rank? \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Well, did you know that the Governors there, they have honorary Colonels that they hand out.  But the one who really -- Lester Maddox started calling me the Colonel and every time Id go in his office, he'd say, Colonel, what can I do for you today?  And so he was quite a showman as everybody knows. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Lets explore for a minute, Glenn, if you will, the mechanics of lobbying.  For example, what is the first thing a lobbyist does when he finds out that a bill that affects him is about to be introduced? \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Well, what I did -- and I assume what most of the lobbyists did -- they go back to their employer and sit down.  I would go back.  If we had a bill that I could get my hands on Id take it back to my office.  Wed rally the lawyers and the accountants and so forth, and they would study the bill and they would up with some good, concrete evidence of what it would do to business.  Now we were not unreasonable over there in representing the business, but most of the time most of my energies were expended on killing bills, not passing bills.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Hmm-mm. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  And we would take down the bills that would affect the business community. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  But sometimes you might settle for amendments. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Amendments? \r\n \r\nSHORT:  To the bill. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Yes, yes, we did.  Occasionally wed settle for one. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And youd go to the sponsor and suggest those amendments. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And what if a sponsor rejected them? \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Well, if he did wed just go ahead and kill the bill. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You know it seems, I guess, to most people, that lobbying work is done there in the capitol.  But thats not it, is it? \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Oh, no, no. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Tell us about what you do during the interim. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  All right.  I had a plan every summer.  I would get out.  I would go to every legislator in the Georgia General Assembly and Id go see him in his home town.  I visited with him.  I might take him to lunch or I might take him to dinner.  And I got every legislator I saw between sessions on trips around and that was impressive to these people, going up to Young Harris or going to Walker County.  So, that was well received by these people -- that this fellow from Atlanta thinks enough about me to drive 200 miles or 300, 500 miles.  And so, that was a good program that I put together. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Representing the Chamber of Commerce, you obviously at the same time represented a lot of the businesses who had their own lobbyists.  How did you interact with those? \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Well, that was  generally, if a lobbyist who came to me was a member of the Georgia Chamber we would join in with him if he asked for our support and we didnt take it on unless he asked us to.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Hmm-mm.  I bet you remember when there were only four or five lobbyists around the capital. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Yes.  Yeah, four or five.  I guess now you got -- \r\n \r\nSHORT:  2,000. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  2,000 or more!  But I remember that the Southern Bell had a good lobbyist.  Had one of the old timers -- Bill Bryant. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Bill Bryant.  I remember Bill. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Bob Simonette. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Bob Simonette, yes, he was with the Georgia Fire Company.  He was a very fine young man and well-respected by the members of the General Assembly.   And beyond that I cant recall the names, but we had a small group. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Glenn Phillips. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Glenn 'Cookie' Phillips -- that was the nickname they gave him.  Cookie Phillips was -- at the Grady Hotel they had speaker that stayed there, Speaker George T. Smith.  And most evenings you could go there and theyd have a liquor room setup and everybody would get in there and compare notes and drink some Jack Daniels.  But that was a good program.  So we always kept the liquor bottles filled up. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  I think I might have asked you this question, but Id like to rephrase it and ask you this.  What does it take to be a good lobbyist?  Personality? \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Well, yes, thats part of it and a sense of honesty.  Theres no question about that.  And we've got some lobbyists over there that I dont want to spend much time with.  But anyway, the members of the General Assembly, they know whats going on with these people, so they just -- \r\n \r\nSHORT:  What makes a good public servant? \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Well, Bob, thats a pretty tough question.  Again, honesty, thats number one and -- I would say thats the number one issue. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Hmm-mm.  What do you say to those who criticize lobbyists and accuse them of being something other than Sunday school teachers? \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Lets see, how about rephrasing that? \r\n \r\nSHORT:  How do you respond to criticism of the profession of lobbying? \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Well, thats a pretty hard question.  Most of the lobbyists I would say now working these days -- most of them are honest people and they want to do whats right.  But theyve got to represent their clients.  They've got to represent their companies, but the bad ones -- the bad lobbyists, they cant make it.  Theyre ineffective and they get the reputation thats damaging to them. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Getting back to the pre-legislative forums which were so important at that time.  Tell us about some of the participants and if you recall some of the issues they discussed on these tours. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Well, theres a wide range of subjects and a lot of times people in North Georgia might have a different set of ideas than the ones in South Georgia.  Taxation was always a big issue.  They had -- oh I dont know, that was a big one. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Let me ask you this question.  Tell us about some of the most effective legislators that you remember. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Well, yes, a former state Senator named Roy Lambert from Madison, Georgia was an outstanding state Senator -- a very honest, very compelling man.  Also had Representative Harold Clark, who later went to the Supreme Court in Georgia.  A very fine statesman.  Hes a man who stood by his principles, and could not be swayed.  But hed always be upfront with you when you were dealing with him.  Those two come to mind as being exemplary good legislators. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You worked over there during the famous feud between Lieutenant Governor Zell Miller and Speaker Murphy.  How did you fair during that period? \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Well, personally, I did all right.  You know, I dealt with both of them and Id be upfront.  I would tell them if I was dealing with Murphy, or vice versa, you know. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Glenn, as you look back over those years you spent over at the capitol, what do you think was your greatest accomplishment? \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  My greatest accomplishment?  Well, representing the businesses of Georgia, seeing their programs enacted in the Georgia Legislature and killing the programs that would be not in the best interests.  So, those were some of the things. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Hmm-mm.  What was your biggest disappointment? \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  You know, I really cannot -- I did not have any disappointment to tell you the truth.  Over the years I pretty much had it my way to put it bluntly, but I didnt have any real disappointments.  I feel like I served the business community of Georgia. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, I think I can say without fear of contradiction that if all lobbyists were like you, than we wouldnt have the headlines we read far too often in the newspapers today.  I want to ask you this final question.  What advice do you have for those who might want to become professional lobbyists? \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  I would say that they would have to have a bent toward the government or legislature.  Personality is very good.  Personality, honesty and -- \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Communicative skills.  Do they figure? \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Very important, yes, very important. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  How is the best way to communicate with a legislator?  Is it privately in his home or in his office or is it the famous three martini lunches? \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  I did a lot of my -- I did a lot of those activities.  I spent a lot of time at the Commerce Club with those so-called three martini lunches and most of us did a lot of business in the halls.  In the evenings youd go out where youd see these good folks.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Was it difficult to change votes when you needed them? \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  No. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Was it? \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  No.  I was very successful in my career over there.  I cannot remember a single instance where I fell flat on my face on an issue.  So, I feel very good about my career there. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, you've had a --  \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  And those two -- Im very, very proud of those two recommendations that the House and the Senate made on my behalf, commending me for my honesty and integrity.  And as I mentioned earlier, one of the pros over there said hed never heard of anything like this -- a lobbyist being honored.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Hmm-mm. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Most of them are looked upon as lurking in the dark with their topcoats and their top hat pulled down.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Wearing those Italian suits. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Thats right, wearing those $1,500 Italian suit and silk underwear. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, Glenn, its been a pleasure having you and I want to thank you on behalf of Young Harris College and the Richard Russell Library, the University of Georgia and myself, for being with us. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Well, thank you very much, Bob, and you know, weve been old friends since 1957. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Thats right. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  So that goes back a long way. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Been through a lot together. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Yeah, we surely have. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Shared a lot of good friends. \r\n \r\nANTHONY:  Absolutely.  Thank you very much. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Thank you. \r\n \r\n[END OF RECORDING] "},{"id":"gych_rogp_063","title":"Millard Grimes, 07 January 2009.","collection_id":"gych_rogp","collection_title":"Reflections on Georgia Politics oral history collection, 2006-2010","dcterms_contributor":["Short, Bob, 1932-"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, 39.76, -98.5","United States, Georgia, 32.75042, -83.50018"],"dcterms_creator":["Short, Bob, 1932","Grimes, Millard B., 1930"],"dc_date":["2009-01-07"],"dcterms_description":["Millard Grimes discusses his childhood in Newnan and LaGrange and working for the Columbus Ledger as a teenager. Grimes recall his work with The Red and Black and Pandora at the University of Georgia. He elaborates on his coworkers at The Red and Black and how his work there prepared him for work in the newspaper industry. Grimes discusses winning the Pulitzer Prize for an investigation into corruption in Phenix City with the Columbus Ledger. He elaborates on the circumstances of the investigation and his decision to begin a daily newspaper in Phenix City. Grimes discusses his later acquisition of the Opelika Daily News and how he expanded its circulation. Grimes recalls his return to the Columbus Ledger-Enquirer and the series of events that led him to become the editor. He discusses his book The Last Linotype: The Story of Georgia and its Newspapers since World War II. Grimes recalls outstanding journalists he worked with, including Wade Saye, Lewis Grizzard, Ray Jenkins, Grover Hall, Jim Bane, Jim Bellows, Rheta Grimsley Johnson, and Bob Fowler. He also elaborates on what makes a good newspaper and whether newspaper editorials shape public opinion. He specifically mentions influential editorials from Ralph McGill and Carl Sanders. Grimes discusses the administrations of Governors Sanders and Vandiver, the 1966 gubernatorial election, and the demise of the county unit system. He also discusses the importance of investigative reporting and the tension between segregationist publishers and African-American readers. Grimes discusses his interest in the history of Warm Springs and President Roosevelt and party politics in Georgia. He also recalls the magazines he was involved with, Georgia Trend and the Georgia Journal.","Millard Grimes was born in Newnan, Georgia, on March 8, 1930. He grew up in LaGrange and Columbus. In high school, he worked at the Columbus Ledger first as a copy boy, then as a proofreader and sports writer. At the University of Georgia, he worked as an editor for The Red and Black, and graduated from UGA with a degree in journalism in 1951. He returned to the Columbus Ledger as associate news editor, and in 1955 the newspaper won a Pulitzer Prize for documenting corruption in Phenix City, Alabama. He then served as publishing chief executive officer at numerous newspapers, including the Opelika-Auburn News and the Rockdale Citizen. In 1991, he entered magazine publishing when he purchased the Georgia Journal and Georgia Trend. In 1999, he sold Georgia Trend, and funded the Millard B. Grimes Laboratory for Excellence in Print Journalism at the University of Georgia. Additionally, he has served on Franklin D. Roosevelt Warm Springs Memorial advisory board.","Finding aid available in repository.","Interviewed by Bob Short."],"dc_format":["video/mp4"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection","http://sclfind.libs.uga.edu/sclfind/view?docId=ead/RBRL220ROGP.xml"],"dcterms_subject":["University of Georgia--School of Journalism","Red and Black (Athens, Ga.)","Columbus ledger (Columbus, Ga.)","Columbus ledger-enquirer","Journalists--Georgia--Interviews","Newspaper editors--Georgia--Columbus--Interviews","Newspapers","Governors--Election","Investigative reporting--United States","Segregation and the press","Political parties--Georgia","Investigative reporting","Journalists","Newspaper editors","Political parties","Universities and colleges--Alumni and alumnae","Newnan (Ga.)--History","LaGrange (Ga.)--History","Warm Springs (Ga.)--History","Georgia","Georgia--Columbus","Georgia--LaGrange","Georgia--Newnan","Georgia--Warm Springs","United States"],"dcterms_title":["Millard Grimes, 07 January 2009."],"dcterms_type":["MovingImage"],"dcterms_provenance":["Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-063/ohms"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection, ROGP 063, Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Libraries, Athens, Georgia, 30602-1641."],"dlg_local_right":["Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule."],"dcterms_medium":["oral histories (literary works)","interviews"],"dcterms_extent":["1 interview (89 min.) : sd., col."],"dlg_subject_personal":["Bellows, James G.","Sanders, Carl, 1925-2014","Grizzard, Lewis, 1946-1994","Jenkins, Ray, 1930-","Vandiver, S. Ernest (Samuel Ernest), 1918-2005","Grimes, Millard B., 1930-","McGill, Ralph, 1898-1969","Hall, Grover C., Jr. (Grover Cleveland), 1915-1971","Roosevelt, Franklin D. (Franklin Delano), 1882-1945"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":"Millard Grimes interviewed by Bob Short \r\n2009 January 7 \r\nAthens, GA \r\nReflections on Georgia Politics \r\nROGP-063 \r\nOriginal: video, 90 minutes \r\n \r\nsponsored by: \r\nRichard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies \r\nUniversity of Georgia Libraries \r\nand \r\nYoung Harris College \r\n \r\nDate of Transcription:  September 29, 2009 \r\n \r\nBOB SHORT:  Im Bob Short, and this is Reflections on Georgia Politics, sponsored by the Richard Russell Library at the University of Georgia.  Our guest is Millard Grimes, who is a well-known newspaper man and author.  Millard, welcome to our program.  \r\n \r\nMILLARD GRIMES:  Thank you.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You are a newspaper man.  You literally grew up in the newspaper business, working as a copy boy, a proofreader and a sports reporter for the Columbus Ledger while you were still in high school.  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Thats right.  Ive never made a dollar since then in any business except publishing, newspapers or magazines.  So, I guess, yeah, Im a newspaper man.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You were born in Newnan.  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Yes, I was born in Newnan in 1930, just a few months after the Wall Street crash that ushered in the Great Depression.  My father lost his job during that time, and so I only lived in Newnan a few weeks as a baby.  Although that was the county, Coweta County, was where the families of both my parents had lived for generations.  And a lot of them are still buried there around the Welcome Church, if you know where that is.  Well, Elim Church in the Welcome community.  But we moved to LaGrange when I was still a baby, as I said.   \r\nAnd so I grew up in LaGrange, which actually was a great place to grow up in the 1930s.  It was a small, small town, about 18,000, 20,000.  But it was a cotton mill town, I guess.  But we lived only about a block from what you might call downtown.  So you could walk everywhere.  You could walk to the theater or the stores on Main Street to the church.  So, actually, I had access to a lot of that stuff.  And back in those days, of course, a kid could walk all over town by himself if he wanted to.  And I mean, we were poor, I guess youd have to say.  I dont think my father ever made much more than 20 dollars a week, 25, maybe some  he was a traveling salesman for the Culpepper Company there.  Ive often said we were so poor, we could hardly afford a maid, because maids then were two dollars a week.  So we did afford a maid, which was fortunate, because my mother was sickly and stayed in the bed most of the time.  And then, my father, he traveled a lot.  He didnt get home a lot, sometimes on purpose and sometimes because he had to work.  And I think he sort of took to drinking during this period and some nights didnt come home at all.  \r\nBut my grandmother came to live with us, so I guess my grandmother sort of raised me.  But we lived right there on Broom Street.  I dont know whether you know where that is or not in LaGrange, but its just, like I say, right off the square.  But I loved growing up in LaGrange, because it was such a big difference in those days, in the 1930s.  If you lived in a relatively urban area, I guess you would call it, and about two to three miles away, outside the city limits, people didnt have running water, they didnt have electricity, they didnt have a lot of comforts we now have.  And the difference is just maybe a couple of miles.  And it wasnt how rich or poor you were.  It was actually if you lived in a town or if you lived out in the country, no matter how rich you were, you usually had to have a well, and it was a long time before you got electricity.   \r\nSo growing up in a small town, also, you had access to stores much easier, and theaters.  I keep saying the movie theater, because in the 30s, going to the movie for a dime was the big entertainment for children.  And I started buying Big Little books.  You remember those?  Comic books and things like that.  And I was always a reader and always wanted to be a writer.  And I really started out wanting to be a fiction writer.  And wrote a lot of stories.  Wrote stories for comic books and science fiction, the pulp magazines, as I got into my teenage years.  But I soon realized it was going to be hard to make a living at a penny at a word.  I just couldnt write that many words.   \r\nSo in the summer of my junior year at Columbus High, I went down and applied for a job at the Ledger-Enquirer, the daily newspaper there.  And they had a job for a proofreader during the vacations of the other proofreader.  I was only 16 years old, which I thought was a little young for that job.  And then I was a copy boy on Saturdays.  They dont have copy boys anymore, and sometimes Im not sure they have proofreaders anymore.  Everybody has to kind of proofread their own stuff.  But the copy boy was very important in those days.  He not only had to go get coffee for all the people in the newsroom, which was very important, but he had to strip the wires and, later, wind up the paper tape that was sent by the wire services that you put through the linotype machines.  Well, if the copy boy didnt come in in the morning around 5:00 or 6:00, the editors didnt have any wire copy, which back in those days was extremely important, because we didnt have as much local as they do today.  But in any case, that was my introduction.  And I worked at the Columbus paper during my years here at the university in the summers.  \r\nMy father died when I was a senior in high school, and my mother used the money to sort of send me through school.  It was insurance money, and thats how I happened to get through Georgia.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  So you came to the University of Georgia to study journalism.  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And Im sure you must have worked on the Red and Black.  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Absolutely.  I went down to Red and Black the first week or so I was here and worked on it til my senior year when I worked on the Pandora, the yearbook.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  What was the university like in those days?  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Well, it was, I think, great.  But Id never been anywhere much.  Id been to Athens once.  I came up here to cover a track meet.  When I was a senior in high school I started writing sports for the local Columbus paper.  And Id been to Florida a couple of times.  But like I say, we didnt travel much during the war, didnt go anywhere.  So Athens, of course, today people say its a lot different, and, I guess, sure it is.  But when I was walking over here today, I realized I could still find my way, because it was similar to the way it was when I was a student and used to walk on north campus a lot.   \r\nAnd it was right after World World II, so a lot of the men students  Id say probably more than half of the men students were veterans coming on the GI bill.  And of course, men outnumbered women about five to one on the campus in those days.  And I was a fuzzy-faced 17-year-old who came up in 1947 as a freshman at 17.  Id been about 15 when the war ended, so  I missed the war, or at least as a serviceperson.  So it was certainly really hard to get a date for a guy who didnt have much money and who was younger than most of the other men.  And we lived out in the prefabs on Ag Hill.  The prefabs there, they stayed there, I think, til the 60s.  And then I moved over on Milledge Avenue for my last three years.  \r\nBut I worked at the Red and Black and would have to say it was the best training ground for newspaper people that you could have had.  And the people who were on the Red and Black during the period I was there just went on to have very successful careers in journalism.  When I was editor, John Pennington was the managing editor who Jimmy Carter gives a lot of credit for saving his political career when he investigated a voting fraud that kept Carter from winning his first race.  Jim Mintor was the sports editor.  He went on to become the editor of the Atlanta papers.  Dewey Benefield, who didnt stay in newspapers, but who became a very prominent developer down in Sea Island, was there.  Mike Edwards, who went on to become a writer on National Geographic and is still writing for National Graphic. Glenn Vaughn, who went on to be the publisher of the Columbus newspapers.  It was an unusual group of people there.  And some of them were veterans, and some of them werent, like Jim and I werent, and Dewey.  \r\nSo the Red and Black, as Ive often told folks, was the most exacting newspaper at that time that I have ever worked on.  Every line had to fit.  Every headline had to fit just right, and we rewrote them time and time again.  And of course, we printed here in Athens in an old print shop.  But it was an experience that, if you went through all the rungs on the ladder, when you got out, you could put out a newspaper, a real newspaper, I think.  And I think a lot of those people did.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You were there during the Sinkwich-Trippi years.  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Well, no, I missed those.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You missed it?  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  I was there right after that.  However, I saw Trippi play several times, because they played the Georgia-Auburn game in Columbus every year at that time.  And so we got to usher the Georgia-Auburn games when I was in high school.  In fact, one of my great scoops when I was sports editor for the high school paper is I got an interview with Charley Trippi in the lobby of the Ralston Hotel.  I called up his room.  Im not usually that brash, and Charley Trippi answered, and I asked him to meet me down in the lobby.  And so I interviewed him a little bit about his  it was one of the Georgia-Auburn games.  But, no, they had left.  Roush and that group were here.  Zippy Morocco, whos still here in Athens, I was talking to Zippy the other day.   \r\nBut I think it was a great time to be at the university.  We had big bands come in for all the big dances, like homecoming and the commencement.  And the city wasnt as big.  Certainly it didnt have any bars.  In fact, I dont think you could serve drinks in Athens at that time, although a lot of people managed to get some.  But it was a great time be here.  \r\n \r\nBOB SHORT:  So after graduation, you wound up back in Columbus.  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Yes.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Lets talk about in 1955 when your newspaper won the Pulitzer Prize for documenting evidence that there was corruption in Phenix City, which is across the river.  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Thats right.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Tell us about that.  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Well, it was an interesting year, needless to say.  And I would like to say that, as it was on the Red and Black when I was here at Georgia, we had an unusual group of people on the Columbus Ledger during that time who went on to  Bob Brown was the editor, and I think he was the person most responsible for us getting the Pulitzer.  Bob had worked with Harding Carter in Mississippi on that Delta paper, and then he went through NBC and came to the Ledger-Enquirer.  He was fairly young, I guess his middle 30s.  And he died fairly young.  But he did help us get that Pulitzer.  He was a very good political journalist, in the sense that he knew all the people in the business.  Well, we won  I mean, we overplayed the story, quite frankly.  I mean, the key to cleaning up Phenix City was that Albert Patterson, an attorney in Phenix City who pledged to clean it up, was elected Attorney-General of Alabama.  And one night, in a dark alley downtown, he was shot to death, on June 18, 1954.  Ill always remember that night.  But when he was shot and killed, that naturally created a lot of attention on Phenix City, which had been corrupt for years and years.  I mean, going back to the riverfront days when riverboats came in, it was a gambling center.  Of course, Fort Benning being across the bridge there helped create the need  not the need  but a lot of nightclubs and so forth.  And we used to go over there a lot, my wife and I, my fiance at that time, and the people from the Ledger-Enquirer.  And frankly, I never saw all that much corruption.  I mean, they could serve drinks, and they had dancing.  And I guess they had gambling and things like that in the back rooms, but I never saw any, and other things.  But, in any case, when Patterson was killed, the Governor or Alabama declared martial law in Phenix City and sent the National Guard in.  And the National Guard took over the entire government of Russell County and Phenix City.  You had a National Guardsman who was the sheriff and another one who was the police chief, and all the people who were there were ousted.  Then they brought in a special grand jury from all over the state, and a judge.  And in the next nine months, they charged and convicted a lot of the gamblers, which they felt would never have happened with the old regime in place.  So then they arrested the Solicitor General of Russell County, the Deputy Sheriff and the Attorney General of Alabama, whichever was attorney general at the time, and charged them with Pattersons murder. It was a very interesting trial.  \r\nThe district attorney was probably the most powerful politician in the county, a fellow named Arch Ferrell.  And at the trial, the witnesses testified, several of them, that they saw Ferrell and the deputy sheriff, Fuller, shoot Patterson in this alley right there.  Ill tell you a little interesting story about that alley there.  It was right on the main street of Phenix City at 9:00 on a Friday night.  So a lot of people walking up and down the street.  But it was a little off the sidewalk.  But despite eyewitnesses  and the main eyewitness, by the way, was killed in a knife fight before the trial.  Just a coincidence, according to the books and all.  And I recently read about a book about this.  Its why I remember it well, because I just read a very good new book about the assassination.  In any case, Fuller was convicted, the deputy sheriff.  Ferrell was acquitted.  The Attorney General went to a sanitarium, as they called it back then, in Texas, and was declared mentally-unfit to stand trial.  And, of course, he wasnt in Phenix City that night.  In fact, Ferrells defense was he was talking to him on the phone.  Now, I wont get into all those details.  But in any case, he was supposed to have helped plot it, though.  \r\nJohn Patterson, Albert Pattersons son, of course, was elected in his place to be attorney general and later was elected governor, defeating in 1958 George C. Wallace.  The only time Wallace ever lost an election in his career is when Patterson beat him.  But despite Patterson being the attorney general, they did acquit the guy he really felt was the person who was responsible for the assassination.  And Ferrell died in prison  not Ferrell, but Fuller died in prison about seven years later.   \r\nBut in any case, getting back to this, we played up all this stuff, of course, and ran many stories on it.  Im trying to remember exactly what we did that revealed things.  I think we kept the story alive because we bannered it every day and we had lots of news sources.  But the key was the Governor declaring martial law and sending in the troops to find out why Patterson had been murdered.  And they cleaned out all the gambling establishments.  They threw out slot machines.  They destroyed the places and, of course, arrested the gamblers.  So, yeah, we won the Pulitzer Prize and were real proud.  But as Ray Jenkins, whos still a real good friend of mine and was the main reporter at that time in Phenix City, said, we kind of overplayed the story.   \r\nBut the sequel to that is, on the day we won the Pulitzer Prize, it was announced, I had already resigned and had decided to go over to Phenix City and start a weekly newspaper.   They had a small weekly, but it was not very good.  So I got this guy who ran a radio station over there, put up two-thousand dollars.  Id always wanted to be an entrepreneur.  So I got an office in the same building that Patterson had had his office and had walked down the steps from the night he was murdered.  And so we had an office there for about two years, and I tried my hand at weekly newspapers then.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, actually you must have liked it, because even today you own several weekly newspapers.  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Well, I dont know that I liked it that much.  And, of course, I didnt have any money much, and we didnt have a print shop.  And the pace was so different from a daily.  Still is.  I mean, you have to really make yourself on a weekly go on and do things.  Whereas a daily, sort of, the deadline forces you to.  Actually, that experience convinced me at that time that I wanted to just be involved with dailies, if I could.  And so the Columbus paper took me back, which was fortunate.  Ive been very lucky through the years to have a job somewhere.  And I went back to the Columbus paper.  And I left one other time for a few months to work on a paper in the Valley, which had just gone cold-type.  And it was owned by a guy named Carmage Walls, whom you may be familiar with.  Carmage had been publisher of the Macon Telegraph.  And he also had a hand in more weekly news dailies and weeklies, I think, than anybody in the country, because he helped young people starting.  And his stepson was the publisher, I think, in the Valley at that time.  But I went up there briefly.  But I had a family situation.  Both of our mothers lived with us, my wifes mother and grandmother and my mother.  And we almost had to stay in Columbus.  But we tried it for a while.   \r\nWhat I was going to say about the people on the Ledger-Enquirer, when I worked there as a young copy boy, Jim Bane was a news editor who later went on to Atlanta and became the managing editor there, and then went on to be a big official in Cox newspapers.  Jim Bellows was the city editor, and Jim became editor of the New York Herald-Tribune.  And Tom Sellers and Ray Jenkins and various other people who went on to pretty good careers.  Joe Hall, I think he also went to Atlanta.  So we had an unusual staff.  Carlton Johnson.  Later, when I was editor, I brought in Charlie Black, and we sent him to Vietnam seven times.  And Charlie, I think, became sort of a legend covering Vietnam during the 1960s.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  That was a good decision you made.  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Yeah.  Did you know Charlie?  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yes.  And you got firsthand coverage from Vietnam that other newspapers in the state really didnt get.  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Well, Charlie wanted to go.  He had been in World War II and in the Korean War.  And he interviewed the soldiers and the people more than the officials.  So he didnt depend on news from official sources.  And we got letters from all over the country from people wanting Charlies items because they included names of their sons, fathers and husbands who were in Vietnam.  And Charlie died fairly young, too.  And it was at the memorial service, the guy who won the Pulitzer Prize for Vietnam service was there and called Charlie the greatest reporter of the Vietnam era, because he did report on the people.  The people, that is the soldiers who were actually fighting.  And I think it did give us a boost.  Because during that period, the Enquirer became the largest circulated paper in Columbus.  The Ledger had always been the top paper, and, of course, they used some of his articles, too.  But back in those days, the newspapers had separate staffs.  The Ledger was the afternoon paper.  The Enquirer the morning paper.  Of course, as we know, morning papers were then gaining traction to become more circulated than the afternoon papers.   \r\nAnd there was a period, of course, I was editor, too.  I became editor when I was just 32, in 1962, and had come back to the Ledger-Enquirer from my little excursion to the Valley.  And I was working on the desk again, the same job I had when I got out of college, making about 100 dollars a week.  And we had two children, and that was probably the low point of our career and in our lives, in a way.  But then, by a series of coincidences, I became editor in a couple of years.  The editor of the Enquirer died one night of a heart attack.  And I was already writing a column and a lot of the editorials.  I just used to do it on the side when I was really the [indiscernible].  And so I got to be the associate editor because I was writing the editorials.  Well, back in those days, the editor overlooked the whole operation, not just the editorial page.  But somebody had to write that.  So then they reorganized, and somehow I ended up as editor of the morning paper.  Well, Id never worked on it.  I always worked on the afternoon paper.  And that was a period when Carl Sanders was running for governor and was elected.  So my years as editor of the Enquirer coincided with his first term.  And that was a great period in Georgia history, I feel.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Did you ever know Bill Burson, who was a correspondent in Korea?  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Yeah.  Mm-hm.  I knew him.  He was in college when I was.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  He was here when you were here?  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Yeah.  Mm-hm.  Yeah.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Bill and I worked together as press agents for governors, as you well know.  In your book, The Last Linotype: The Story of Georgia and its Newspapers since World War II, you described the years between 1950 and the 80s as the Golden Age of  Newspapers.  What was so special about that era?  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Well, first, I think newspapers values went up.  The value of the papers, that is.  It was years when newspapers began to go on the stock market, so you could judge their value, the big papers.  Small papers, if you were fairly successful, these big groups were always calling you wanting to buy you, if you were in an area they liked.  So it was certainly golden from that standpoint.  Also, we had changed from hot-type by then, most newspapers, to cold-type and offset, which allowed us to run many more pictures and local pictures.  Before offset, you had to have a plate made of every picture you ran, and it was costly, among other things.  Well, after offset, you could just run picture pages pretty easily, and eventually you could run color much more easily.  So it gave newspapers a chance to run more pictures.  Frankly, most of the  I dont know whether this is good or bad, but for whatever it was worth, most of the editors and reporters by then were college graduates because theyd gone to college on the GI bill.  Whereas, before World War II, it was people who werent.  I dont know whether that improved it.  Some of them were good and some of them werent.  Plus, there was very little competition for the advertising as there is now and later.   \r\nNewspapers were the medium in town, Id guess youd have to say.  The publishers and editors were fairly prominent people.  After the chains bought up most of the small dailies and many weeklies, of course the publisher just became another person that the chain happened to send in for a few years, rather than somebody that lived in the community for many years.  And they certainly improved a lot of papers, but they also de-proved some.  \r\nBut my experience during that period, of course  in 1969, I left the Ledger Enquirer and got some lawyers in Opelika, Alabama, to help to put some money up to buy the paper in Opelika, the Opelika Daily News. And so we did.  I became publisher and editor in March, 1969.  And that was a great experience.  Id never had a business course in my life.  And I mainly continued to do what Id always done: I put the paper out every day, and got somebody else to sell the ads and do the business.  And we had about 6,000 circulation.  It didnt circulate much in Auburn, which is a sister city of Opelika and was the key.  For six months after we bought that little daily, which was really considered, I think, the worst paper in Alabama at that time, I mean, they ran nothing on the front page except wire news.  Back in those days, you could take the wire news off the machine and fill up your paper, which some papers kept doing and still do today.  Well, we ran a lot of local.  We started covering Auburn.  And six months later, we changed the name to the Opelika-Auburn News so that we could have that extension into Auburn, and also added a Sunday edition, which theyd never had.  And those were the two keys, I think, to expanding and succeeding in Opelika.  Auburn, I should say.  The plant was in Opelika.   \r\nAnd we did a lot of photos.  We covered sports very heavily, Auburn sports.  And nine years later, we had gone from 6,000 circulation to 9,000.  So one reason I call that the Golden Age of Newspapers is, back in those days, you could gain circulation, which is very hard to do now.  But, of course, we didnt charge much.  I mean, it was like a dime during the week and a quarter on Sunday.  And Ive forgotten what the monthly price was.  And the Opelika-Auburn area was extremely competitive in those days from outside newspapers.  And there was a strong weekly in Auburn that was actually stronger when we bought the Daily News than it was.  But you had Columbus, Montgomery, Birmingham and Atlanta all sent, both afternoon and morning papers, into Lee County, Alabama. And two of them had bureaus there, Columbus and Birmingham.  Birmingham had a real strong circulation there when we first went there.  \r\nBut in any case, as I saying, we went from 6,000 to 20,000 in nine years and quadruple the income, which was lucky, in a way.  But we had this plan, as I said.  And the reason it was the golden age, we bought it for about a million dollars and sold it for about seven million eight years later to Thompson newspapers.  Thompson didnt do as good a job as I was hoping they would.  But at that time, they were the largest owner of small papers in the country.  And they owned newspapers all over the world, including the London Times.  I told the guy when we were selling, I said, Boy, Im real proud to be associated with the group that owns the London Times.  And he said, Well, thats one of the newspapers weve got that doesnt make money.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Let talk for a minute about some of the real newspaper men during that era.  Who do you recall that were outstanding journalists during that period?  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Well, as I mentioned, people that worked on the Red and Black when I was there went on to be pretty outstanding.  One who probably doesnt get enough recognition is Ray Jenkins, who was at Georgia at that time and worked on the Phenix City story during the Pulitzer year, and then went on to be editor of the Montgomery papers.  And I think one of the really great writers of that period was Grover Hall, Jr., who was the editor of the Montgomery Advertiser.  Grover got mixed up one time when they sold it to somebody and he left Montgomery, which was really  he never became as good a writer after that, because Montgomery was his heart.  Its where his father had lived and been editor of the Montgomery paper.  But Grover was a unique writer.  He made editorials interesting, which is hard to do.  I mean, most newspapers sort of throw the editorial page in, without the kind of thought and writing that Hall put in it.  So, of course, he was in Alabama, but he was one person I feel was very important in influencing me.  And he and Bob Brown were good friends, who was editor of the Ledger.   \r\nWhen you were in Columbus  back in those days, I worked on the Columbus paper for 20 years and then on the Opelika-Auburn News for another ten.  And even though I was very involved in Georgia, it was just across the line, for those 30 years, I was much more involved with the people right there.  And although I knew some of the others  I mentioned Jim Bane and Jim Bellows came from Columbus.  I was actually on the board of the Georgia Press Association, as well as the Alabama Press Association.  So I knew a lot of those people, but I dont know if their names would be that familiar to anybody.  Bob Fowler was one who started the Gwinnett Daily News, and he sold it to the New York Times for umpteen-million dollars.  And then they closed it down.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Before I forget, Id like to ask you your opinion of what makes a good daily newspaper.  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Well, thats a good question.  I have thought about it a lot through the years.  When we bought the Opelika paper, as I said, it was not real good, Id have to say.  I would say, both then and now, even more so, you had to cover the local news.  Television had already been a factor for nearly 20 years when we took over the Opelika paper, but, obviously, it was not the factor it is today.  You didnt have cable, and you didnt have quite as close a coverage.  And I think covering the local news is number one.  And everybody says that, but there a lot of ways you do that.  And then youve got a lot of audiences out there.  Youve got an audience that wants a lot of sports news, and probably some papers overemphasize sports.  And Im a big sports fan.  And just to compare what we did in Opelika and Auburn, we started really covering Auburns sports.  And we covered high school sports.  I dont know how many high schools we must have covered.  They had so many then, because all these counties were getting private schools in addition to the public schools.  And Alabama has a lot of public schools.  In Lee County there was Beulah and Beauregard and Notasulga and Loachapoka, as well as Opelika and Auburn.  They all had Indian names.  And so we covered high schools real closely.  We ran a lot of pictures.  We were probably  and I think thats a key for papers today.  We do that in our weeklies, is run a lot of pictures of people.  Thats one thing that is still difficult for any of the other media to do.   \r\nPlus, we ran obituaries, deaths and funerals, which very few of the media doesnt do well, except newspapers.  So I think, today  I notice the Journal Constitution has emphasized deaths and funerals a little bit more, spotlighting somebody.  And I think their Vent column has become very popular, and many newspapers are doing that now to try to give the audience a chance to participate.  But I would say that our success in Opelika and Auburn, which I think is reflected in a lot of dailies, was increasing the amount of local news and running more pictures.  We also, of course, ran a lot of columns.  \r\nId like to mention another trend that we got into.  After we sold the Opelika-Auburn News, we really didnt have that much money.  I didnt have but about 15 percent of that paper.  And I didnt have any money, of course, when it started.  Id been in the newspaper business all my life.  And I had to borrow what I had in it.  But then we got into suburban papers.  Because suburban papers in the late 70s and early 80s were about the only thing a small group with not much resources could buy.  But you could get real good bargains in suburban papers, because the dailies, the large groups, had not discovered the suburban papers.  Of course, in the next 20 years, those suburban papers became real hot commodities.  Our first one was  well, Phenix City was sort of a suburban paper.  Our first one, though, was the Rockdale Citizen in Conyers, which I got right after we sold the Opelika-Auburn News.  And we had it for 17 years.  And it was a weekly when we bought it, and we converted it into a five-day daily, and ran an all-local front page.  But we did have wire news inside, and we had comics, and we had other things.  But somehow we managed to get all local on the front page.  It was pretty tough some days.  In Rockdale County, you wouldnt think that much happened.  And Im not sure it did, but it must have.  Something happens all the time.  You just have to be creative, I think.  \r\nBut at one time we had the paper in Rockdale, Clayton County  which was a real good county back in those days for news, where Newt Gingrich was headquartered, so to speak.  Henry County, which I never guessed was going to grow like it has. And Fayette county, which obviously was a hot county.  But at the time we had the paper there, it didnt even have a motel.  You had to go to either Newnan or Clayton County to spend the night.  And all those counties, of course, became very strong.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You mentioned editorials.  Do you think that newspaper editorials help to form public opinion?  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Well, I dont know for sure.  Thats what I have mainly done through the years is write editorials and columns.  I never was a reporter too long.  I started being an editor, that is.  So back when I was editor of the Enquirer, we had to write about two or three editorials a day and a column, and oversee the paper.  I mean, back in those days, the editors really worked.  I think today they just write maybe an editorial once in a while.  I never got a lot of feedback from editorials.  I think letters to the editor get more feedback almost.  And I say that as somebody who wrote editorials and thought they were pretty good, and still do write.  I still write a column pretty much every week.  But I think the news has more impact on people, not just for selling the paper to them, but even influencing them.  I think they look on editorials as somebody elses opinion.  So Im not sure.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Now, with your permission, Id like to get your thoughts on some of Georgias most well-known political writers and editorialists.  And, of course, the first one that comes to mind is Ralph McGill.  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Yeah.  Well, I thought he was real good.  I mean, I used to read his column regularly.  Im sure he must have had some influence on the situation that evolved in Georgia.  But I think the person who had the most influence was Carl Sanders, who was the governor during the 60s, at a time when, if you remember the 60s, cities all over the South were exploding.  States  of course, living on the Alabama border, I was quite familiar with what was going on in Birmingham, Montgomery, various places.  Somehow, if you look at the difference in Georgia and Alabama during the 1960s, when Wallace was governor in Alabama and Sanders was governor in Georgia, you can see that Georgia fared much better and became the commercial capital of the South, particularly Atlanta.  Now, I dont know if you can give Sanders or McGill, either one, credit for all that.  But they were  Sanders, particularly, was in a position to sort of keep things calm.  And, as Ive said, Sanders, while he was governor, all three major league sports brought teams to Atlanta.  Baseball was the Braves, and Atlanta built that great stadium, which I still think was great, because you saw it when you came into the city real vividly and dramatically.  Brought the Falcons, the NFL football team, and then the Hawks, the basketball team.  And I think that put Atlanta on every sports page in the county, a little line every morning in the major league sports.  And then you had that stadium, which many people came to.  \r\nAnd I think also it probably gave Atlanta that boost that Birmingham  and even some of the others, Charlotte for a long time and Jacksonville  didnt have, because they had the major league teams.  And you have to give Sanders a lot of credit for that, because he personally brought a couple of those teams in.  And he and Ivan Allen working together got that stadium built in something like a year, didnt they?  You were there, Im sure.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yeah.  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  And that was really one of the miracles of Georgia.  It also was the period when the major hotels all came to Atlanta: the Hyatt-Regency, the Marriott, later the Peachtree Plaza, or whatever it was, Westin.  And I think Sanders cleared the way for a lot of that by convincing people outside of Georgia that we were calm.  I dont know that we were all that calm or not.  But in any case, that all came about.  McGill died in, what, 1969 or 70.  But I think his influence and Pattersons influence helped keep Atlanta  gave it an image, in any case.  And thats very important, of course.  And I think we had an image, Atlanta and Georgia did, that was much better than the other states, and has still created the atmosphere that enabled us to finally get the Olympics and so forth.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Lets talk about that period for a moment.  Preceding Sanders as governor was Ernest Vandiver, who most people believe was one of the most courageous governors we ever had because of the circumstances he faced during his administration.  What did you think about that period?  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Well, I think he felt like he had to do what he did, which was allow integration here at the university and integration in general.  When we did this article on Sanders for Georgia Trend years later, Vandiver wrote me a letter and was upset, that he felt like he should have gotten more credit, because he allowed the integration and so forth.  But I think it was reluctant.  And in his campaign for governor, he vowed never to allow any kind of integration, which I think he carried every county but three.  So apparently the right way.  But I felt like Sanders did more than Vandiver overall, because he came in and sort of  I cant remember all the things he did.  Of course, he was a great education governor.  I havent brushed up on some of that, but I know he did a lot of things.  And Vandiver did, he had a tough time and allowed the integration of the university, two or three people.  He was a good governor.   \r\nMost of our really great governors never were elected to anything else.  I thought Ellis Arnall was a very progressive governor.  Never was elected again.  Sanders never was elected to anything again.  And Vandiver was never elected to anything again.  So we dont reward our real progressive officials too well.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Do you remember that race in 1966 when Governor Arnall ran against a group of people which included Lester Maddox?  And even Bo Callaway from down in your way was the Republican.   \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Yeah.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  What do you remember about that race?  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Well, quite a bit.  I wrote a little book about it.  I was editor of the Inquirer then and was a pretty good acquaintance of Bo Callaway.  He had become the first Republican congressman two years earlier.  And that was the district that Columbus was in.  And, of course, Pine Mountain was very near Columbus, and we would go over there a lot.  And Callaway today will admit that he ran a very bad campaign that he should have won.  What happened was, though, there were four major candidates running for the Democratic nomination.  Maybe five, I guess you could say.  And Maddox only got something like 19 percent of the vote, but that was enough to get him into a runoff with Arnall, who got about 28 percent.  And Garland Byrd was in that race, and Jimmy Carter, who came in third, and James Gray, who was sort of the establishment candidate.  So there were five major candidates, yeah.  And then Arnall beat Maddox in the runoff.  Of course, there were a lot of rumors that the Republicans voted for Maddox because they thought hed be easier to beat.  But I dont think that was true.  If you analyze the vote in the primary and the general election, the candidates that went heavily for Arnall in the runoff were the same ones that went heavily for Callaway in the general election.  So I dont think there was quite as much so-called crossover voting as people thought.   \r\nAs you recall, Callaway finished slightly ahead of Maddox in the general election, about 3,000 votes, but he didnt get a majority.  And at that time, the General Assembly selected the governor from the top two. And, of course, the General Assembly was heavily Democratic still and selected Maddox over Callaway.  And I think that delayed the Republican domination of Georgia politics for several years, because Callaway was the last Republican to get more votes in the general election than the Democrat until Perdue in 2002.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hm.  The demise of the county unit system in Georgia, which a lot of people nowadays dont understand, dont you think opened the door to better government in the state?  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Oh, absolutely.  I was a strong opponent of the county unit system when I was at Georgia.  Some of my editorials as editor of the Red and Black were against the county unit system, because it just seemed to me it wasnt fair.  And, of course, we had a lot of cases where  well, it wasnt so much that we had a lot of cases where the person who got the fewest votes won, although that did happen in 1946 when Gene Talmadge got fewer votes than the guy he was running against.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Jimmy Carmichael.  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Jimmy Carmichael.  But most of the time it was because the county unit system gave people who only got 35, 40 percent of the vote, they were the winners.  I think that was the case with Marvin Griffin when he ran.  Because that only applied to Democratic primaries, the county unit system did.  Talmadge twice tried to get that put into the constitution to apply to the general election, and it was defeated, actually, in Georgia.  And, of course, while it cleared the way for Sanders to win, actually, he would have won anyway.  He carried the county unit system.  Maddox would have won heavily had it been on the county unit basis in 1966.  But anyway, he went on to become a fairly acceptable governor, I guess.  And Bo Callaway finally moved to Colorado, and then came back.  And I see him quite often now at Callaway Gardens.  He lives there now.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  In Chipley.  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Well, Pine Mountain they call it now.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Chipley.  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Yeah.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Still Chipley to me.  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Yeah.  I wish they hadnt changed the name, because its confusing with Pine Mountain Valley, not to mention the mountain.  And some places around there are still called Chipley.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Id like to ask you this question.   \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  All right.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Do you think theres more or less interest in todays newspapers in investigative reporting?  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Well, I havent noticed that there is.  Atlanta still does a lot.  Columbus does some.  The paper up here in Jefferson does quite a bit.  I think its difficult for small papers to devote the resources and so forth, depending on what the investigation is.  I think if we can report the news, which is what we try to do, and report whats going on, sometimes that almost feels like investigative reporting.  We had a situation in Greenville, Georgia, recently in which the guy elected mayor was not living there.  And we brought that out and took a picture of this mobile home that he had as his address, which was obviously abandoned.  And I dont know  they finally put a judge in charge of the county  of the town.  And hes mayor now, and he claims he lives there.  But he really, I think, doesnt.  That was not really investigative reporting.  What we do is try to bring out whats happening.  And we have a little paper in Talbot County, which is certainly one of the smallest counties in Georgia.  You remember Talbot County, the Henry Jurden  Jordan and persons.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yeah.  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  They were from Talbot County.  And there was another prominent family.  And the Strausses were from there, who founded Macys department store.  And they have just, in this election, elected the first black sheriff and the first black probate judge in Talbot County, even though its about 80 percent black. And so coming into this year, well have a black judge and a black sheriff for the first time in Talbot County.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Speaking of that, how did you treat the civil rights movement from a news standpoint in your newspapers?  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Well, in Columbus, we had a real strong family ownership, the Chapmans and the Ashworths, during all the years I worked at the Columbus paper.  It was later sold to Knight Ridder.  I think they had real good newspapers because they wanted real good newspapers.  But I would have to say we mainly covered it by ignoring it.  During the 1960s, we did not play up civil rights commotions around.  And we were kind of like the eye of the storm.  Not only Georgia, but Columbus, in particularly, to my knowledge never had a riot, never had any problems.  And I dont think that it was strictly because of the newspapers, but we didnt have many problems.  They integrated the schools.  In fact, my children were in the first wave of integrated schools in Columbus.  And I think Columbus probably has more problems now than it did then.  But we did not play it up big.  And Ill never forget the first time a black couple brought in an engagement and wanted to run it, a wedding.  The publisher was really against it.  So we finally ran it, but we didnt run it in the society section.  We ran it back in the grocery section, I think, and they got real upset.  I dont know.  He was an old-time Southern publisher.  And we forget how  well, not very easily.  But most of the people were, of course, strongly segregationist.  We didnt run high school sports on blacks.  And weve all changed.  Now we cant hardly get any whites in.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  What happened, do you think, that changed that attitude?  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  I dont know.  I dont know that the attitude changed so much as the circumstances had to, both from a business standpoint and a rights standpoint, I guess, and a readership standpoint. We forget.  We say newspapers are in dire circumstances today, and to some extent they are. But we never had blanket readership, because the blacks didnt read the newspapers down in the 50s and the 60s.  And that was true for Atlanta and Columbus.  Even though they were a huge  Id say a third of the population, we didnt run any news that appealed to them.  We didnt, like I say, run the sports.  The only thing we ran about blacks, frankly, was crime.  Maybe church news, obituaries, which were carefully segregated.  But it was 40 years ago. We forget how much that has changed.  But today, I think our weekly newspapers run more about blacks in those counties than we do about whites, including social events and so forth and pictures.  And they got mad with us, one guy, the county commissioner, because we didnt run a banner story about Obama winning the presidency.  But we dont run  we didnt run one when Bush won.  In fact, I dont think we even ran one when Roosevelt one, although he lived there in Meriwether County, so to speak.  Thats just not what weekly newspapers do.  I mean, we ran how it ran in Meriwether County, Obama and McCain.  Interestingly, Obama carried Meriwether County, slightly.  And going back, I think, perhaps the Roosevelt influence is still strong in Meriwether County.  Democrats have remained pretty dominant there.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Did you visit any with President Roosevelt when he came to Warm Springs?  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  No.  No, I was just a child then.  But I was always sort of a Roosevelt historian, I guess youd say.  And Ive always been proud of the fact that we have a paper there and promote Warm Springs and promote the historic role that Warm Springs played.  Just a few weeks ago, I carried a friend of mine out on Dowdells Knob there in Meriwether County, which is where Roosevelt looked out over Pine Mountain Valley and where he went the day before he died to look out over the valley.  And the grill that he used is still there.  And theres a statue there of him now that was dedicated just last year, if you havent seen it, that overlooks the valley.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hm.  Lets talk a minute about party politics in Georgia.  How long do you think the Republican Party will be able to continue its dominance in the state of Georgia?  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Well, I dont know.  I think it still depends a lot on individuals.  Right now, if you want to win an office in Georgia, in a lot of places you figure youve got to run as a Republican.  For many years we know that it was true that if people wanted to win an office, they ran as a Democrat, no matter how they felt at the national level or at the state level.  And at the state level, issues didnt break down along party lines.  I dont know if they do now.  Well, they make them.  As I said, I was a strong supporter of the two-party system.  But Im not sure now that one-party politics doesnt work better, because you dont have these conflicts develop as easily over issues that really arent issues, but become party issues.  And I think the Republicans have gotten to squabbling among themselves about whos going to run next year.  So I dont know.  We may develop a real two-party system.  Weve sort of gotten away from  we almost went back to the one-party system with Republicans being the party. Last time what did Perdue get?  About 60 percent, 65 percent of the vote.  And mainly because blacks still vote heavily Democratic, and I think they will continue to.  I assume Hispanics will continue to vote Democratic.   \r\nCounties change so drastically.  Rockdale County, which, like I said, we owned the newspaper there, for 17 years operated it.  It has changed from being solidly Democratic, when we bought the newspaper, to solidly Republican, and its almost back again to being Democratic, because blacks, now, make up something like almost 50 percent of the population.  And when I had the newspaper there, it was about 90 percent white.  And that does affect politics.  We cant get away from the fact that theyre a very strong influence on politics.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Many disenchanted Democrats feel the Georgia is too urban and too dependent on minorities and labor.  Do you think thats true?  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Well, yeah.  I think that thats why the Democrats need to nominate somebody from below Macon for governor who can help them pull rural votes.  Because theyre going to get the urban vote, now, around Atlanta, and thats a heavy vote.  But if you looked at the last election last month, or November, its rural counties below Macon and up in the mountains that vote so heavily Republican.  And so I think theyve got to get somebody who can pull votes down in the southern part of the state, because were still a very  were not only party line voters; were regional  its always been a very regional basis for the vote.  And I think a guy like Dubose Porter might be able to win a statewide race if he ever runs.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Getting back to newspapering, what effect has television had on the newspapers?  And the Internet, has that affected circulation?  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Well, yeah, obviously.  I mean, Atlantas pulled back.  Columbus was pulled back.  You cant even get an Atlanta paper now in Harris County, down there where I spend a lot of time.  And I actually hate starting the day without an Atlanta paper, although sometimes I get upset at various things.  About the way they cover news, not their positions, and about the way they  I feel that, obviously, newspapers face a challenge to their very existence right now.  Actually, when I got out of college, people were saying that, because television had just begun carrying news.  And they said, Well, this is going to mean the end of newspapers.  But it wasnt.  It was the beginning, as I said, of the golden age.  And right now, young people dont read newspapers.  My children dont read newspapers, and they were raised in the business.  So I dont know where were heading in the newspaper business.  Ive been in large dailies, fairly large, small dailies and in weeklies.  I think weeklies still have a pretty good niche.  And I think thats the key for newspapers, is to maintain a niche in the market for media, just as radio has managed to do, and as a lot of magazines have managed to do.  I think newspapers used to feel like they had to be the dominant media, that everybody had to take it.  And thats not going to happen anymore.  But what theyve got to do is aim at the market they can serve and the role they can fill and can sell advertisers on.  I mean, advertizing still pays the way for all these media.  \r\nBut the Columbus papers and the Atlanta papers did something last week that I thought was really dumb, and that was increase their price.  We dont get much money out of circulation in the newspaper business.  What we really want is circulation.  Well, when you go up a quarter from 50 cents, as Columbus did, thats a 50 percent increase.  It may not seem like much, but, I mean, it makes a difference.  I know when sometimes Im trying to buy a paper on a rack, I might not have but two quarters or three quarters when its a dollar.  Back in the old days, of course, when I was first coming along, like I said, newspapers were a nickel or a dime, because we were a mass media.  Weve got to realize theres other media out there.  Television, Internet, they are considered free by most people.  So I think weve got to hold down our costs.  The newspapers got accustomed to such high profit margins.  These groups, they had these plans, and they did make way too high of profit margins.   \r\nIf you pick up your Sunday Journal Constitution, though, if you can pick it up, its still hard to pick up, because it carries so many inserts.  The same way is true of Athens and lots of other papers.  Even a little paper like our Manchester Star-Mercury averages about six inserts a week, and thats in a county that hardly has any stores in it.  It really doesnt.  So newspapers still have a function, but its to carry inserts and hopefully get a few other ads, and tell people we still are the only medium that tells people who got born, who died, who won the homecoming queen crown, who won the local football game and who scored the winning touchdown.  So from birth to death, its the little incidents that weekly newspapers can still carry, and a lot of dailies.  But weve got to get away from charging too much, I think, to remain a mass media.  And theres just a lot of competition out there, and weve got to try to make sure were one of the competitors, the newspaper business.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Can you see any way to encourage young people to read newspapers more?  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Well, I guess  as I said, I get discouraged watching my own children and grandchildren.  And I think they do look at sports still.  Sports is one thing they seem to still go to the newspaper for.  But you dont get that much sports off television.  Even when it carries a game, you dont know exactly what happens.  You dont know who the leading ground-gainer was.  I was watching the Tech-Georgia game last night in basketball, but I still didnt know who the leading scorer was or anything about  if you want to know the details, youve got to look in the newspaper the next day.  \r\nAnd I know my daughters, they look for stuff about their children.  If theres something about their children, its still real important.  My grandson is a pitcher for the Norcross High team.  And I used to drive over to Winder in the mornings to pick up a Gwinnett paper to see what they had about the games he pitched.  And Im sure that people still do look for items in the newspaper about events they were involved with.  Its hard to get that kind of stuff off the Internet or off television.  So this probably isnt what they teach in journalism college, but that is what weve got to become.  And we can also  we still cover all the county commission meetings, the school board meetings that nobody else is at.  And weve just got to make that kind of news more relevant to the reader on what the county commission is doing, because you can sit through a long session and not get much.  \r\nSo Im optimistic a little bit that we can continue being a niche provider of information.  But can we keep selling ads to the people?  Thats a big issue.  Because our main advertisers through the years as newspapers were grocery stores, which we no longer have; retail stores, which are fading out; and automobile dealers, which had a terrible year, and real estate.  All four of those areas are hurting right now.  Walmart kind of killed the retail business, because they dont advertise much.  And they showed retailers they didnt have to advertise to be successful.  And so about all retailers run now are inserts.  Wed come to rely a lot on auto dealers.  They were kind of the new supermarkets.  And then last year they had a terrible year.  And I just dont know.  If they come back, maybe itll help us.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You mentioned magazines, which brings up the Georgia Trend.  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Yeah.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Tell us about the Georgia Trend.  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Well, after I got out of Opelika-Auburn News, as I said, we mainly ran these suburban dailies during the 1980s.  And then in 1991  Id always really loved magazines.  As I said, when I was a kid, buying comic books and science fiction magazines is what really got me interested in writing.  And so Id always thought, If I could ever get a magazine, thatd be great.  And Georgia Trend, when it first started, was started by Gene Patterson when he worked on the St. Petersburg Times.  And they had a Florida Trend, and it was a business and political magazine.  Well, the recession of the early 90s was very hard on print media.  I was reading an article yesterday which finally compared the recessions of the post-war era.  And the one in the early 90s was pretty bad.  I dont think a lot of folks realized how bad it was.  We did in the newspaper business.  Because, I know in Rockdale County, we had never had a year in which we did not do more business than wed done the year before until 1990.  And the magazine trade got hit very by it, the Atlanta magazine, Georgia Trend.  \r\nAnyway, St. Pete decided to sell its magazines.  So we got Georgia Trend in a pretty good deal.  But, I mean, it was like losing about a million dollars a year, so you had to kind of act fast.  But it was in this tower in downtown Atlanta.  It was great, the Atlanta Gaslight Tower at Peachtree Center.  We had an office up there on the top floor, and you could almost reach out and touch the blue dome there on the Hyatt Regency.  And I really enjoyed  it was the highlight of my career, almost, was running Georgia Trend.  And we later moved it  well, we moved out to Norcross to an office, but we also had an office here, which is where we actually put it out.  It was in Athens, because I lived here and I didnt want to move.  So we had an Atlanta office, but we actually put Georgia Trend out here in Athens.  And I thought it was a great opportunity to tell stories about Georgia that I had not been  I did have another magazine, Georgia Journal, it was called.  You may remember.  And it focused on tourism and gardens and towns.  And it was very popular with some people, but not enough.  And you couldnt get ads for it.  But you could sell ads in Georgia Trend, because it went to  we mailed it to everybody in tourism and government and CEOs and so forth.  If they just asked for it, they got it.  So that was the way you had circulation.  And you had about 50,000 of the key people.  And it had a lot of features folks still like, like Top 100 and the Georgian of the Year.   \r\nSo it was a lot of fun.  And I got Bill Shipp to come over from Atlanta magazine and write a column.  Bill was never involved in production, but he did write a column every week.  And we had some terrific photographers, which I think were very important.  But I sort of burned out, because I wanted the magazine to be a certain way.  And so I think I kind of burned out trying to do much on it, writing every headline, every cutline.  But my children worked with me on it, two of them did, and what a great experience.  And I thought they wrote some great stories, like I said, the one on Carl Sanders.  And I remember one article Jim Minter wrote for us called Is Henry County the Next Gwinnett?  And actually, that was in 1992, and it did become the next Gwinnett, almost.  Not quite.  I think its on its way to becoming what Gwinnett is becoming now.  And we did an article on Vandiver later on and his role, which was very important.  He was still bitter with Carter for not appointing him to the Senate when Russell died.  And I did a series on Bo Callaway and how he ran for governor, his life, both in tourism and in politics, which Ive got a little booklet of Id like to give you.   \r\nBut, in any case, we managed to write it up.  I mean, it became a strong advertising medium during the 90s as the economy improved.  And then, after we sold Georgia Trend back to the people wed sold our south metro Atlanta papers to, Neil Young and Tom Cousins, 10 years ago, 1999.  Ive got these little weeklies down around there where Charlotte, my wife, and I had grown up.  And thats what weve done for 10 years, and its been sort of a tough road.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  I imagine you stay pretty busy with that number of weekly newspapers.   \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Well, not real busy.  Because Im here.  Im in Athens.  I live in Athens, and theyre all 140 miles away.  So you dont have to be quite as involved, but Im pretty involved with them.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, youve certainly had a brilliant career.  Youve also introduced some people into journalism, Lewis Grizzard.  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Yeah.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Tell us about Lewis.  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Well, Lewis was a sports writer on the Athens Banner-Herald when a couple of guys and I got this idea to start a paper here in Athens back in 1965.  Glenn Vaughn and Claude Williams were the main  well, they turned out to be the main people.  But I went to Claude, who had a little weekly here, and asked him about what he thought about turning it into a daily and challenging the Banner-Herald, which at that time was a fairly weak newspaper.  And we knew it was going to be sold, because the person who owned it had died and it was in his estate and had to be sold by the end of the year, in 1965.  And about the only thing I did for that paper, except kind of give them the idea  I was still in Columbus at that time.  I was editor of the paper in Columbus  was hire the sports editor of the Banner-Herald, which was a guy named Wade Saye.  So we felt like, Hey, if we have a really good sports editor and section.  That will give us a start.  I think Wade was making like 60 dollars a week, and so we offered him 70.  He said hed come if he could bring this intern he had, and that was Lewis Grizzard.  So thats how Lewis came to the Athens Daily News.  And in his book, If I Ever Get Back to Georgia, he recounts his experiences on the Daily News, which he remembered very fondly, in particular Glenn Vaughn, who came up and was the publisher.  Glenn was in Columbus with me at that time.  If I decided I couldnt come, he came.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Rheta Grimsley Johnson.  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Yeah.  I remember Rheta when she was still here writing for the Journal-Constitution.  She worked for the Opelika-Auburn News while she was a student at Auburn.  Met her husband there.  He was working as an assistant sports editor, Johnson.  And Rheta was a great columnist, even when she was very young, and went on to become a  shes still a columnist for Scripps Howard, I believe.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hm.  Yes, she is.  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  But I have not seen Rheta in several years.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  If someone asked you for suggestions for a young journalist who is just beginning a career, what would you tell them?  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Well, I dont know.  I might tell them to try to get into the electronic media some way.  Because its a hard  well, I wont say its a hard job.  Its difficult in a way, although I feel very fortunate to have been in a position in the media for so many years.  Theres no heavy lifting, as we say.  And you usually get to stay out of the hot and cold, unless you get sent to one of these foreign assignments.  But it can be long hours.  It kind of depends on the individual.  Ive had people who worked 12 hours a day and others that worked four or five and do the same amount of work.  Some people just get married to the job and like going there.  I think newspapers, as I said, have a niche role to play.  Theres also magazines, which most newspapers are now putting out magazines.  Its amazing to me how many magazines theyre selling, have sprung up in the last few years.  That was a lot when I was in the magazine business back in the 90s.  But Mark Smith, who used to be here in Athens as a publisher and worked for Morris for many years, his father, his family owned the paper in Eatonton.  And Mark took it over when he retired from Morris and has done a great job of expanding it into the Lake Oconee community.  And he puts out two or three magazines and puts them in there.  He has a real estate health magazine and then a regular magazine.  And the Newnan paper puts out two magazines, I think, and Columbus puts one out.  Its real funny.  Everybody puts one out now except Atlanta, which started the newspaper magazine business many years ago.  \r\nI was looking at these questions you sent me about great experiences, achievements, disappointments  I guess Im mainly a news journalist, I guess youd say, and so I enjoy that part of it.  But my greatest achievement undoubtedly was in Opelika, where we increased everything so much.  I think there was a lot of luck involved.  By going into Auburn, we became a border-based paper.  And then somebody opened a big shopping mall between Opelika and Auburn, and that always helps when youre a publisher.  And, of course, I had two great circulation people.  One of them was a real good friend of Rheta Grimsley Johnson, in fact.  They managed to get our circulation just expanded all of a sudden  and back in those days you could do that  into the Valley and into the surrounding area. \r\nAnd I think my greatest disappointment is that I havent been able to develop a successor.  I have three children, two of whom have worked in the business.  But I dont know whether theyre going to be able to be a successor, and I havent been able to find any people that work for me.  I think you need a good business type.  And most of the successful papers of other companies have had that.  Ive never had a really great business type.  And Im sure thats hurt our company.  We're probably poorer today because of it.  But newspapers took a real hit during the past year, as did a lot of companies.  And weve just got to hope for the whole nation and worlds sake that 2009 is going to be a better year some ways.  And Im 78 years old.  As I said, I was born just a few months after the Great Depression started.  Looks like Ill be going out that way.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, lets hope not.  Millard Grimes, a great journalist, a great Georgian, Id like to thank you on behalf of the Richard Russell Library, the University of Georgia and myself for being with us today.  \r\n \r\nGRIMES:  Well, thank you, Bob.  And I really enjoyed it.  And I appreciate you asking me.   \r\n \r\n[END OF RECORDING] \r\n \r\n \r\n "},{"id":"gych_rogp_060","title":"Harold Murphy, 15 December 2008.","collection_id":"gych_rogp","collection_title":"Reflections on Georgia Politics oral history collection, 2006-2010","dcterms_contributor":["Short, Bob, 1932-"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, Georgia, 32.75042, -83.50018"],"dcterms_creator":["Murphy, Harold Lloyd, 1927","Short, Bob, 1932"],"dc_date":["2008-12-15"],"dcterms_description":["Related materials available in the following collections of this repository: Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection 092 McCracken Poston.","Harold Lloyd Murphy was born in Felton, Georgia, in 1927. He served in the U.S. Navy and attended the University of West Georgia, earning his law degree from the University of Georgia. He first practiced law in Buchanon, Georgia, and then in Tallapoosa, Georgia. In 1950, he was elected to the Georgia House of Representatives, and served until 1961. He also served as an assistant state solicitor general of the Tallapoosa Judicial Circuit in 1956. From 1971 to 1977, he served as a superior court judge for the Tallapoosa Judicial Circuit. In 1977, President Jimmy Carter nominated him as a federal judge on the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Georgia. He has presided over numerous high-profile cases and rulings, including Knight v. Alabama (regarding segregation in Alabama's historically black colleges and universities), Georgia Voter ID cases, and the Tri-State Crematory case.","Finding aid available in repository.","Harold Murphy discusses growing up in Haralson County, Georgia, and his education at West Georgia and University of Georgia Law School. Murphy recalls being elected to the Georgia House of Representatives from Haralson County in 1950. He discusses his service in the legislature from 1950 to 1960. Murphy recalls serving under Governors Talmadge, Griffin, and Vandiver. Murphy discusses his cousin Tom Murphy, the Speaker of the Georgia House of Representatives from 1973 to 2002. Harold Murphy explains that he never intended to be a judge and discusses his appointment by Jimmy Carter. Murphy discusses several famous cases he was involved with, including Knight v. Alabama (regarding discrimination in all the public universities in Alabama), the Georgia Voter ID case, U.S. v. Thevis (regarding racketeering), and the Tri-State Crematory case. Murphy discusses the United States federal sentencing guidelines, Georgia's indigent defense system, striking jurors, and challenges of being a judge.","Interviewed by Bob Short."],"dc_format":["video/mp4"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection","http://sclfind.libs.uga.edu/sclfind/view?docId=ead/RBRL220ROGP.xml"],"dcterms_subject":["Georgia. General Assembly. House of Representatives","University of West Georgia","University of Georgia--School of Law","Judges--Georgia--Interviews","Judges--Selection and appointment--United States","Segregation in higher education--Law and legislation--Alabama","Crematoriums--Georgia","Sentences (Criminal procedure)--United States","Crematoriums","Judges","Judges--Selection and appointment","Politics and government","Segregation in higher education--Law and legislation","Sentences (Criminal procedure)","Universities and colleges--Alumni and alumnae","Georgia--Politics and government","Alabama","Georgia","United States"],"dcterms_title":["Harold Murphy, 15 December 2008."],"dcterms_type":["MovingImage"],"dcterms_provenance":["Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-060/ohms"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection, ROGP 060, Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Libraries, Athens, Georgia, 30602-1641."],"dlg_local_right":["Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule."],"dcterms_medium":["oral histories (literary works)","interviews"],"dcterms_extent":["1 interview (64 min.) : sd., col."],"dlg_subject_personal":["Murphy, Harold Lloyd, 1927-","Talmadge, Herman E. (Herman Eugene), 1913-2002","Vandiver, S. Ernest (Samuel Ernest), 1918-2005","Carter, Jimmy, 1924-","Griffin, Marvin, 1907-1982","Murphy, Thomas Bailey, 1924-2007"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":"Harold Murphy interviewed by Bob Short \r\n2008 December 15 \r\nRome, GA \r\nReflections on Georgia Politics \r\nROGP-060 \r\nOriginal: video, 65 minutes \r\n \r\nsponsored by: \r\nRichard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies \r\nUniversity of Georgia Libraries \r\nand \r\nYoung Harris College \r\n \r\n \r\nDate of Transcription:  September 27, 2009 \r\n \r\nBOB SHORT:  Im Bob Short, and this is Reflections on Georgia Politics, sponsored by the Richard Russell Library at the University of Georgia.  Our guest today is Judge Harold Murphy, who has been a Georgia legislator, a super court judge, and was appointed federal judge by Jimmy Carter in 1977.  Welcome, Judge Murphy. \r\n \r\nHAROLD MURPHY:  Well, thank you very much.  Im honored to be participating in this program. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You come from a well-known family in Haralson County of distinguished lawyers and political leaders.  Please tell us about your early life growing up in Haralson County, Georgia.  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Well, I was born in a small community of about 200 people in Haralson County called Felton.  It was an unincorporated community.  My father was a rural mail carrier and a farmer and a businessman.  My mother was a schoolteacher and a school principal.  And I went to a little country school.  And there was a time when I was in the primary school that the schools were so poorly financed we had five months of school.  And my parents then sent me to school over in Polk County, which had nine months of school, and went there for a couple of years.  And the little community we were in still only had school seven months at the most, so they sent my brother and me to Buchanan School, where they had nine months of school.  So I finished grammar school at Buchanan and then went through high school at Buchanan.  \r\nSo my father put my brother and me to growing cotton when we got about 13 or 14.  He thought boys ought to be busy, and he sure kept us busy.  And then I worked in a grocery store as a bag boy in a small grocery store in Cedartown beginning when I was 14 or 15, and did that all the way through high school on the weekends.  And then I went to West Georgia College when I finished high school at Buchanan, Georgia.  Went to West Georgia for four quarters and took extra courses. \r\nJoined the Navy when I was nearly 18.  The Navy called me in the spring of 45.  I was in boot camp when Japan surrendered.  And I went through boot camp that summer, and then the Navy sent me back to college and sent me to the University of Mississippi for a year in the Naval ROTC program in 1946.  The spring of 46, the Navy discharged me.  And Id been out of high school two years and had three years of college credit.  So I applied for law school at Emory and the University of Georgia and was accepted at both.  And I went to the University of Georgia, finished law school there.  And at the time, you could finish in eight quarters if you went straight through without a break.  I took a break the second summer, which required nine quarters for me to finish law school.  So I finished law school in March of 1949.  My cousin Tom Murphy and I were in every class in law school together all the way through law school.   \r\nAnd I began then practicing law in Buchanan, Georgia, on April 4, 1949.  Id been admitted to the bar.  I was 21.  In March of 1949 I became 22, and I started practicing law on April 4, 1949.  Practiced in Buchanan with a man named Don Howe.  And we then moved our office to Tallapoosa some years later.  I practiced there a while with him, and then with his son also practicing with us.  And then I was appointed to the Superior Court bench by Governor Carter.  And President Carter was in office when I was appointed to the federal bench in 1977.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You were elected to the Georgia House of Representatives from Haralson County in 1950.  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Thats correct.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And served five consecutive terms.  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Thats correct.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And if Im not wrong, there was only two years in a 40-year period that a Murphy was not in the State House of Representatives representing Haralson County.  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Even longer than that.  James Murphy, Toms brother, went into the legislature while Ellis Arnall was governor.  I dont remember what particular year that occurred.  But then James Murphy was there when we had the three governor contest.  I dont remember if he ran for reelection after that contest or if he just did not run.  But a young man named Charles Smith ran, and he served for two years.  I qualified to run for election in 1950.  Charles Smith did not qualify to run, but another man, a lawyer, older than I, named Claude Driver, qualified to run.  And, fortunately, I won.  And I never had opposition again.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hm.  Before we get too far away, lets talk a little bit about your cousin, Tom.  What was he like as a young man?  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Well, as a young man he was gangly fellow.  We were not particularly close while he was growing up.  He lived in Bremen, and I lived on the north side of the county in the little community of Felton.  I did visit with him some and knew him some when we would have maybe a family gathering of some kind, which were really infrequent for the entire family.  And Tom is my fathers first cousin.  I remember smoking rabbit tobacco at my uncles farm with Tom and my brother and my great-uncles sons, and a few other mischievous things.  But then we were in law school together, and Tom got married while we were in law school.  We studied a little bit together while we were in law school.  Participated in the moot court together while we were in law school.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Tell us, if you will, a little bit about your service in the legislature.  What was happening during that period from 1950 to 1960?  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Well, it was an interesting time for Georgia.  When I was in law school at the University of Georgia, and when I was in the legislature, the first few years I was in the legislature, it was kind of like a Petri dish of youngsters who were ambitious and people who ultimately became leaders of the state, politically, in the judiciary, and even the business world.  I was there when we passed the sales tax and Governor Talmadge was the governor.  We passed the sales tax and substantially increased funding for the schools.  Governor Talmadge was a rather progressive governor, without appearing to be as progressive as he was.  But he was very much attuned to the views of the people and what the public wanted.  And he had these strong supporters who would have done anything for him. I heard him comment one time that there was one particular fellow who was such a strong supporter , he said, I believe if I asked him to burn down the State Capitol, hed do so. \r\nBut then, after Senator Talmadge, we had Marvin Griffin as governor.  And there was a sense of things not being absolutely the way they should be during Marvin Griffins term of office.  That appearance did not come from him. He was a very charming rascal.  But some of his cronies, and particularly his brother, Cheney, gave kind of a smelly reputation to his administration.  And then there was a young man married to a Russell, Governor Vandiver, who was very well-loved by the Georgia people.  Hed been a lieutenant governor, and then he became governor. And he was a handsome young man.  And people in Georgia seemed to want to elect and support leaders who were young.  If you think about it, Governor Talmadge was young.  Richard Russell was young when he went to the United States Senate.  Carl Sanders was young when he became governor. George Busbee was young when he became governor.  So Vandiver was a popular man when he went into office.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Had a lot of problems, though, during his term.  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Had bad problems.  He was governor at a time when it was very difficult for state leader in the South with the ending of segregation and the difficulties that were rife with all the civil problems and community problems occurring at that time.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Why did you not seek reelection to the House?  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Well, I got married.  I needed to make a living.  Its very difficult to be a lawyer and be in the legislature unless you have somebody looking after your business while youre gone. And while I was practicing law with another man, nobody looked after what my responsibility was while I was gone.  In addition to that, I had observed enough until I saw either you better make politics a career and be big in it, or you better get out of it.  I met these people for whom I had a lot of respect who would come to Atlanta with one administration and hold a job running a department.  Another governor would get elected and hed fire that person, and hed go back to south Georgia, stay there four years, eight years.  And his friend would get elected, and hed come back to Atlanta for a while.  And they just spent their life like a yoyo, back and forth, from their communities back to Atlanta.  And I did not see that as a career for me.  And, frankly, I dont know how people who did, why they wanted to do it.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  So you never thought about running for a higher office?  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Well, I was asked to run for higher office.  I was courted by people who came to see me and ask me to run for Congress years ago, and they told me, You will not have to get out and raise a penny.  Well raise it for you.  And Ill tell you a story nobody much knows.  When I decided not to run, about two weeks after everybody had qualified, I had a telephone call from Phil Campbell, who was Commissioner of Agriculture at the time.  And he said, Weve seen that you did not qualify to run.  And I said, No, I didnt run for reelection.  I said, I told the Speaker at the end of the last session I was not going to run for reelection.  And he said, Well, he didnt realize that.  The Speaker did not.  He didnt know that.  It must not have gotten through to him, because I called you to tell you we had decided over here that we were going to elect you Speaker Pro Tem of the House.  I says, Well, its too late now.  He said, Well, can you get your cousin Tom to withdraw?  And I said, No, I wouldnt even approach him about it.  So thats made a lot of difference in my career.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Mm-hm.  How early in life did you decide youd like to be a judge?  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  I never intended to be a judge when I was in law school.  When I went to law school, I thought Id be an FBI agent.  Because to be an FBI agent, you had to be either an accountant or a lawyer.  And I had read these books as I grew up about the FBI and whatnot, and I thought thatd be a good career.  But I was too young to get in the FBI when I finished law school, so I started practicing law.  And I never intended to seek a job as a judge.  After my law practice became successful, I was making a lot more money as a lawyer than a judge is paid.  But ultimately, as time passed, I needed to make some changes in my career.  And I had the telephone call that said, Come over here next Friday to the Capitol.  The Governor wants to swear you in as judge.  So I went and took the oath of office.  I never asked for it.  I had sought an appointment to the federal bench prior to that occurrence.  But the Republicans were in power, so I didnt get anywhere with my efforts at that time.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  But youd served as a solicitor.  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  I did work as the assistant to solicitor general in our circuit for about a year.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  So you had some good experience.  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  I tried a lot of cases.  I tried the cases that year.  But my partner and I, we had a broad practice.  I tried dozens and dozens of major homicide cases when I was practicing law as a lawyer.  And tried a lot of civil cases.  And by the time I went on the bench, I guess 40% of the work I did was helping other lawyers with their cases.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  So then you got the call from President Carter . . .  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Yes, sir.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  . . . asking you would you like to be on the bench, the federal bench.  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Well, no, he didnt call me.  When Carter became president, there was a vacancy for a judicial seat in the Northern District of Georgia.  And I spoke to Senator Nunn about it and I spoke to Senator Talmadge about it.  And those are senatorial appointments, really.  They call them presidential appointments, but its a patronage position of the party of the president.  And the President was a Democrat, and we had Democratic senators.  And they recommended me to the President, and the President submitted my name for confirmation by the Senate and I was confirmed.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  How does that process of confirmation work?  Does the president do the heavy loading, or do you have to do it?  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  No.  The people who  you have to do it if its for a district court position, now.  And you have to do through the political process.  That is, if the senators or one senator or both senators of your state belong to the party of the president, then that senator or those senators have the right to nominate  or send the name to the president for selection.  If the president happens to be one party, and theres no senator who belongs to that particular party in office in Washington, then the decisions are made by the political patronage people in the state, who might be a congressman; it might be several congressmen; it might be political chairman of the party of the president.  Thats something that differs from state to state when the president is of one party and the senators are of another party. \r\nNow, when it comes to circuit judges, those are strictly presidential appointments.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, before we get too far away, lets talk a minute about how the federal court system works in Georgia.  Im afraid too many people dont really understand the federal courts as they do their local superior and state courts.  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Youre exactly right.  The federal courts try cases that involve federal law, cases that involve issues on the Constitution of the United States, and cases that involve claims or issues between diverse parties where the amount in controversy is $75,000 or more.  The federal courts are courts of limited jurisdiction.  The states courts are courts of general jurisdiction.  They can try anything, basically.  But the federal courts try cases, and Im repeating myself, such as patents, antitrust, civil rights, copyright cases, securities cases, automobile wrecks where, for instance, a person from Alabama is involved in a wreck here in Georgia with a Georgia citizen and the claim is over $75,000.  They can come into federal court on what you call diversity of citizenship.  And thats true with business transactions and contracts, those type things.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Lets talk about some of your more visible cases.  I remember Knight v. Alabama.  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Well, that case is a big part of my career on the federal bench.  Paul Roney was the chief judge of the 11th Circuit in 1989, I believe.  And he called me and asked me to preside in a case in Alabama in which they disqualified one judge who had heard the case, and then disqualified most of the other judges, if not all the other judges, in Alabama from handling the case.  And it involved the vestiges of discrimination in all the public universities in Alabama.  And he asked me to preside in the case, and I did.  And ultimately we had try it.  It took six months to try it.  The order I wrote was 1,000 pages long.  The 11th Circuit reversed  well, it didnt reverse, but they remanded a portion of it.  So I had to go back six more weeks and tried that portion of the case for six more weeks.  And then I presided over the case for about 15 years, and I terminated that case two years ago this month.  It is interesting to note that the University of Alabama has the reputation of being a most segregated school as a result of Governor Wallace standing in the schoolhouse door, so to speak, at the University of Alabama when they attempted to integrate the school.  The University of Alabama is one of the most integrated universities in the South.  And they have two traditionally black universities, one at Huntsville and one in Montgomery.  I had to do a lot of work to bring those universities up to par, so to speak, in facilities and in payment of professors salaries and in getting white people into those traditionally black schools.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You heard the Georgia Voter ID case.  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Yes, I did.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  How did that get in your court?  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Well, I guess one of the reasons is, a defendant in the case was the lady here in Floyd County who runs the election here.  She was one of the defendants.  And there were other defendants over the state that were named, but that gave them jurisdiction here.  I enjoined the effectiveness of the law, because it required people to pay $20 for a voter ID if they did not have a valid drivers license or some other government identification.  And we ruled that was akin to a poll tax and enjoined the operation of the law.  Then the legislature amended the law, removed that provision and requirement.  And they also ultimately adequately advertised the change in the law.  So then I denied the request for a further injunctive relief.  Thats on appeal now to the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals and was argued in the circuit about two weeks ago.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  U.S. versus Thevis.  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  That was a classic case.  I tried it here in 1979.  It was indicted as an Atlanta case and publicity was very high, and I moved it here.  And surprisingly, here, very few people had ever heard about that case, even though people take Atlanta papers here and listen to the Atlanta news.  I realize how diverse this state is.  So many people from this area and north of here watch the Chattanooga news rather than the Atlanta news.  So we had no problem getting a jury.  It was estimated itd take 16 weeks to try the case.  We tried it in nine weeks.  Mr. Thevis was a pornographer, and he was indicted with other people for racketeering.  And the racketeering acts involved five murders, bribery, arson.  And there were fine lawyers in the case.  And so we tried it in this courtroom, and it was a most interesting case.  Mr. Thevis had been in the penitentiary.  He escaped the penitentiary and was a fugitive for some period of time.  While he was a fugitive, there were two witnesses whose testimony the government wanted to preserve.  And I was in Atlanta taking the testimony of those witnesses and doing it in the Fulton County Courthouse, where they had the TV facilities and recording facilities, the day they found Mr. Thevis up in the northeast United States.  And by the time that word got to all the lawyers, my lawyers were deserting me that afternoon to go make sure whether or not they were hired by Mr. Thevis.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  He got a rather long sentence for that.  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Yeah, he had got life plus 20 years.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And I imagine hes still in the . . . \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Hes still in the penitentiary.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  . . . federal penitentiary.  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Yes, he is.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  I know that you had mentioned that you had a very interesting murder case as a private lawyer.  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Yes, I did.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And that was the Ledford case.  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Yes, it was.  I wont go into great detail about it, but Mr. Ledford had been in the penitentiary at Reidsville and was released.  And when he was released, he took up with a woman of the evening.  And from there, they robbed a man who was one of her customers and beat him over the head and whatnot, and put him in the trunk of the car that they had and started out West with him.  And they got over into the Dallas, Georgia, area and were pulled over by a local police officer who told the lady, Your taillights out.  And she said, Well, well go down the way here and Ill get it repaired.  So they did go down the way, but they went out in the country to a secluded area, and went back, opened the trunk.  And, of course, this gentleman had pulled the wires loose on the taillight.  But they opened the trunk, and Mr. Ledford, Hoyt Ledford, took his pistol and he was going to shoot him, and his pistol wouldnt work.  Hed bent it beating around on the poor fellows head.  And so the woman said, Well, here, use my pistol.  So she gave him her pistol, and he shot him in the ear and killed him.  And they closed the trunk door and took him out and dumped him off the mountainside near Fort Smith, Arkansas.  Some squirrel hunters found the body shortly afterwards, notified the law about that.  But in the meantime, the undertaker who owned the vehicle that they were in from Lawrenceville had notified the law his car was gone.  So a couple of Indians named Longacre, who were bounty hunters in Norman, Oklahoma, on Route 66, stopped the car and arrested them.  So our client, Hoyt, he gave about four confessions.  Anybody who would talk to him, hed confess about what hed done.  And we were defending him in Polk County down at Cedartown: Jimmy Parker, the lawyer from Cedartown, Don Howe, my partner, and I.  And our defense was insanity, which is a tough defense, incidentally.  And the only people we could find to testify about him were people who were in the penitentiary with him and his relatives.  So he had a brother who was a barber up in Chatsworth, and we called him as a witness.  And I had his brother on the stand, and I said, Mr. Ledford, in your opinion, is your brother Hoyt sane or insane.  And he says, I've thought he was crazy ever since he killed that other man. \r\n \r\n[laughter] \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  I think thats the worst  I know thats the worst answer I ever had in court.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Its hard to overcome that.  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Oh, it was bad.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  The crematory case.  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  That was a novel case, a most interesting case, that involved a crematory up here in Walker County, where the crematory did not cremate bodies, but stored them around over the properties.  And there were hundreds of them, and we had a class action.  Ultimately got it all resolved, but it was a very sad situation, a very strange situation.  The fellow running the crematory has been prosecuted in state court and is serving some time in the penitentiary, but we had the civil case here.  And I thought we were going to have to try it, but ultimately we got it all settled and worked out without having to try it.  But it was a very sad thing for people, very tragic thing for members of the family.  It brought back a lot of grief.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Has your caseload increased very much over the years?  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Its decreased, really.  When I first came here, my caseload  Im the first and only district judge ever signed to Rome in the federal court system.  Judges would just come and visit here for a week or two in the spring and a week or two in the fall and handle the business.  When I came, about 40% of the caseload was here, and about 60% of my caseload was in Atlanta.  And the civil caseload was running around 500 cases a year, plus the criminal caseload.  We ultimately got additional judges for the Northern District of Georgia, so my case load went down.  And for the last year or so the civil caseload has been less.  People are arbitrating their cases more, mediating their cases much more than they were.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Ive been curious about the impact of the demise of the federal sentencing guidelines.  Has that had an effect on . . . \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Theyve really not been terminated.  For about 20 years, 18 to 20 years, they were mandatory.  The Supreme Court that they were not absolutely mandatory.  They are advisory, but theyre highly advisory.  And anybody whose sentenced, I have to appropriately consider the United States sentencing guidelines and determine correctly what is the sentence that the guidelines would mandate.  That is, the sentencing range that would be required.  And then Im required to give consideration to another provision of the law that speaks protection of the public, respect for the law, matters of that kind, and then impose what the court believes to be a reasonable sentence and a proper sentence.  Generally those sentences comport with the advisory of the United States sentencing guidelines.  But there are also many statues that have been passed by the Congress which require minimum mandatory sentences at least.  Some drug cases you have to sentence people to at least 10 years.  Some at least five years.  If they are subsequent or second offenders, and proper notices are given, you may have to sentence them to 20 years as a minimum.  So the discretion of a federal judge is not what people might think it is.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Who determines which judge hears what case?  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Thats an automatic thing, and its not a discretionary matter.  The clerk of the court maintains a docket system in places such as Atlanta where there are multiple judges.  And its supposed to be a blind system, and that system determines which judge gets which case.  For instance, if its a patent case, they have a system whereby each judge gets his or her share of the patent cases.  They rotate down the list.  If its an antitrust case, they have a system whereby a list is maintained.  Judge so-and-so gets the first case, Judge so-and-so gets the second case, and Judge so-and-so gets the third case, all different judges until it goes through the system.  And then it comes back and rotates over again.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  How often do federal judges communicate with each other? \r\n  \r\nMURPHY:  Well, frequently if they have lunch together.  I dont get to visit with my colleagues nearly as much as I would if I were in Atlanta.  But when I would be in Atlanta, I would have lunch with some of them every day.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  I mentioned to you earlier the new sentencing of life without parole and its effect on the death penalty.  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Yeah, we mentioned that briefly.  Particularly its a matter for talk now and thoughts now in view of the Nichols case, which has just been completed in Atlanta on the trial level.  Sentencing of life without parole, I think, is tending to do away with death penalty cases.  And I think itll do more of that in the future.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  There seems to be a feeling among some Georgians that the wheels of justice in Georgia turn rather slowly.  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  People may have that opinion, but if they turn slowly or they turn fast, they grind exceedingly fine.  In the federal system, things move fast.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  What is your opinion of Georgias indigent defense system?  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  I think its very nice and very fine that we have such a system.  Its been needed a long time.  When I began the practice of law, lawyers were appointed to represent indigent people and were not compensated.  That didnt ever both me, because I enjoyed representing the people I was appointed to represent.  And I found, for some strange reason, that in these criminal cases where you were appointed to represent indigent defendants, it seemed easier to me to win their cases than the cases of people who hired lawyers.  It may have been, for some reason, the prosecution just didnt prepare as much in those type cases.  But then they began to pay some fees on occasion.  The State legislature passed a law years ago that the counties could be required to pay up to $500 in a capital case.  I never got paid in a capital case in which I was appointed but once by a county.  And another lawyer and I were appointed to represent a man for murder.  And we tried the case, and the county paid us $200, $100 apiece.  And then I was never, ever paid any other fee by a county or the state of Georgia for representing an indigent defendant.  I was paid on a few occasions before I went on the bench for representing people by appointment in federal court.  And its a very basic thing now for people to be paid by the federal government for representing indigent defendants in this court.  Georgias long needed it.  Its not adequately funded, but it is an improvement over what did exist.  Unfortunately, cases such as the Nichols case are so expensive that it weakens the financial ability of the state with reference to other defendants across the state which have lesser cases, smaller cases, but important to them.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Have you enjoyed being a federal judge?  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Yes, I have.  Ive enjoyed being a federal judge.  I enjoyed being a state judge.  I tremendously enjoyed practicing law.  I missed the practice of law.  A lawyer can do a lot of good for people.  You can certainly help many, many people who need help badly if youre a conscientious lawyer and youre representing people rather than corporations or what you might all legal entities. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  What is the most enjoyable part of being a judge?  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  The mental requirements, the mental exercise you get.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, whats the worst part?  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  The worst part is piles of paper that you have to go through sometimes.  But there are things worse than that.  The difficulty of sentencing people.  Being as fair as you can and as responsible as you can.  It also results in a lonely life if youre a judge, particularly if youre a federal judge.  There is a loneliness to the job that is different from that of a lawyer.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  What makes a good judge?  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  A reasonable knowledge of the law, an excellent knowledge of the rules of evidence.  But more important than those two things is that you need to respect every individual with whom you deal, whether that person is a lawyer, or a party to the litigation in a civil case, or a defendant whos before you for sentencing.  And be patient and be courteous.  Those are just basic important requirements.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You deal with a lot of trial lawyers.  What makes a good trial lawyer?  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Preparation, preparation, preparation, and then ability.  A sharp mind and experience, experience and experience.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, I appreciate that.  Because if I ever need a trial lawyer, Ill know now what to look for.  \r\n \r\n[laughter] \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Times change and people change.  Has the nature of the cases you hear changed much over the years?  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Yes.  Yes.  When you say the nature of the cases, maybe not so much the kinds of cases, but cases themselves.  When I began the practice of law, I have seen judges in the federal court try two cases a day, criminal cases.  For instance, interstate transportation of an automobile across the state line and maybe a liquor case, try one before lunch and one after lunch.  Now, that may sound extreme, but it is not.  Ive tried cases myself that way in federal court and in state court.  I have tried as a lawyer conspiracy cases in federal court thatd take three days.  Now a conspiracy case, if you try it in a week, youre doing quite well. Most of the time itll take two weeks, 10 days.  The rules now require absolute discovery, in so far as criminal cases are concerned, so the defense lawyers know what the evidence is going to be against their client.  Also, even the defense has to disclose certain information so the government knows that information.  And so it just takes much longer to try a criminal case than it did.  Civil cases have become more complex because lawyers take more depositions and more discovery before trial and then spend more time trying the cases before a jury or before the court.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  How is the jury selection process?  Does it differ in federal court from a superior court?  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  It differs, yes, some.  Both are supposed to be a cross-section of the community.  The jury box for the federal system is gathered by going to the voters list for the Northern District of Georgia, the Rome Division, all the counties in the Rome Division.  And they also look at drivers license and other sources to get names of people who may not be voting.  And then theyre all by lot put into the system by computer, and then theyre drawn by computer.  In the state system, they originally came from the tax rolls.  But they come from the tax rolls and the voters rolls and otherwise.  And theyre put into what was a jury box when I was practicing the law and a superior court judge.  And then the judge would go to the county courthouse and, by lot, pull out names.  And I dont know how they do it now, but its supposed to be a cross-section also.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  What about striking jurors?  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Well, all lawyers will tell you thats an art.  And the striking of jurors differs somewhat from state to state.  Here in the federal court system, each side is required to take so many strikes.  In a civil case, each side has three strikes.  And what that means is you remove three names.  People call it picking the jury.  You dont pick the jury.  What you do is eliminate people from the jury.  So we can try civil cases in this court with six people or more.  And usually I try them with eight people.  So I put 14 people in the jury box vior dire, and then have the lawyers each remove three names.  And they alternate in removing the names. And that leaves eight people left to try the case.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Thirty-one years on the bench.  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Thirty-one years on the federal bench, six-and-a-half years on the state bench.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Whats ahead for Judge Harold L. Murphy, retirement or more years on the bench or run for Congress?  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Well, Im delighted not to be running for any office.  And one of the benefits of the office I have is that, after youre ultimately appointed and confirmed, you dont have to run for office.  Im aware that one of these days Ill have to retire, take senior status.  Ive not done so because I didnt take my job looking forward to retirement.  If I werent here, Id still be practicing law, if anybody wanted to hire me.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, its preparation, preparation, preparation.  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Thats true.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  If youre willing to do that, youll get hired.  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Yeah.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, finally, looking back over your life and your career, is there anything you would have done differently?  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Well, of course, there is.  I would have tried to be a better lawyer.  I would have tried to be a better person.  I enjoyed practicing law.  I enjoyed being in the public office because public service is a  part of my family history.  My parents were very public-spirited, and my familys been very public-spirited.  And so I dont know that theres really anything I would have done differently.  Probably I would have married earlier, not waited as long to marry my beautiful wife.  And I might have wound up practicing law in a larger community.  Theres more opportunity in larger communities, professionally.  \r\nAnd that Thevis case I talked about, theres a lawyer from Nashville, Tennessee, named James Neal.  I severed out one county in the Thevis case involving a lawyer from Atlanta in which they were claiming bribery.  And I tried it separately.  Took a week to try it.  Hes one of the best lawyers I've ever seen in my life.  I had a hearing here in the courtroom, took an hour or so, before the trial.  I walked back in my office and I said, I can tell you whos going to win this case, this particular facet of the case.  Mr. Neal.  And so we got through with the hearing and I said, When will you be available to try this case?  And he said, Im available anytime you want to set it down, Judge.  He said, I only take one case at a time.  Of course, he charged this fellow $100,000 for representing him.   \r\n \r\n[laughter] \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  And we tried it, and he got him acquitted.  Hes the same lawyer that represented Ford Motor Company when they indicted them for  I believe it was indicted Ford for murder in connection with a Pinto that caught fire and burned up in Kentucky.  And he defended them in that case.  Charged a million dollars for that.  But hes also the lawyer who prosecuted this big labor boss that was head of the Teamsters that somebody did away with and they never found his body.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Jimmy Hoffa.  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Yeah, Jimmy Hoffa.  He prosecuted him for jury tampering up in Tennessee.  So its a pleasure to see some of those great lawyers occasionally.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yeah, Ill bet.  Why cant we use that?  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Well, you can.  Yeah.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  We got it on tape, dont you? \r\n \r\nMALE SPEAKER:  If it's okay to use it I'll leave it in the show. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yeah.   \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Sure.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Nothing wrong with that.  I mean, thats not Georgia lawyers.  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Its an example of a fine lawyer.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  I meant to ask you about staff.  Im sure that you need a professional, adequate staff.  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  I do have.  I have two law clerks.  I keep a law clerk for two years usually.  And that one leaves and another one comes for two years.  And theyve rotated through the years.  I now have a career law clerk, a young woman, whos been with me 10 or 12 years now.  A brilliant young woman.  And I have a young man whos been here now since September.  His predecessor was a young woman who was here for three years.  So basically I have two law clerks.  I have a secretary.  And I have a courtroom deputy assigned to me that handles the scheduling.  And of course, theres a court reporter who is assigned to me who takes down and the reporting of all the trials and all the conferences in my office.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Normally, how many trials would you have, say, in a week?  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Oh, in a week?  Seldom will I have more than one jury trial in a week.  But I will have a lot of guilty pleas, hearings, sentencings, conferences, in a week.  For a number of years, I was in the courtroom between 750 and 850 hours a year.  Thereve been years when I was in the courtroom a thousand hours a year.  That is a long time and a lot of time in the courtroom.  And in doing that, Im not counting any time in recess, any time for lunch.  Im talking about actual trial time.  In recent years, 200 or 300 hours a year is as much as I will spend in the courtroom, because, as Ive indicated, litigations seems to have lessened.  There are more mediations and more arbitrations.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  How do you deal with those cases?  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Well, they are handled just as a regular case.  And then when the parties reach the point where they know what each sides evidence is and what each sides position is, they will agree to mediate.  And theyll meet with a lawyer whos gifted and trained as a mediator.  And the parties will be there as well as the lawyers, and they will speak separately with the mediator and some time together with the mediator and see if they cannot resolve the case by settlement.  Frequently, quite frequently, theyre successful in resolving them.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And those decisions stand?  Does that come back to you?  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  It doesnt have to come back to me.  They just make the agreement and they settle the case.  And they agree on it, and they file a dismissal.  Now, if there are minors, of course, they have to come back to me and I have to approve the settlement.  If theyre minors, that is, incompetent people involved.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Sounds like a pretty good way to deal with a lot of cases.  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  It is.  And lawyers have found that to be very effective. Trials are very expensive.  Preparation for trial is expensive and very time-consuming.  And then the trials are very stressful for the parties and the lawyers.  \r\n \r\nMALE SPEAKER:  Do you ever hear from the people youve sentenced?  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Yes.  I have letters of admiration from some people Ive sentenced.  I have people who write me and thank me for saving their life.  I have some of those Im going to give to the library, some of those letters.  Some I get a Christmas card from every year that Ive sentenced.  And some, of course  Im smart enough to know that some of them who are in the penitentiary are writing me trying to soften me up for some reason.  But some are really serious about it.  You do not have to be a snarling individual when you send somebody to penitentiary.  Its not pleasant for them.  At least you can treat them like a decent human being when you sentence them, and you dont need to call them bad names and say bad things about them.  My gosh, sentencing to serve times enough without you telling them how sorry they are and all their relatives and what a heel he is or she is.  And Ive known of judges who do that.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  The old expression is throw the book at them. \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Yeah.  Yes.  There are people who want everybody to be in the penitentiary except themselves and their families.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yeah.  Not a nice place, is it?  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  No.  Frankly, the people with whom you associate may be one of the worst things about being in prison.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yeah, Im sure thats true.  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Yeah.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Come out worse than you went in.  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Yeah.  Oh, yes.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Im concerned about all these drug cases among young people.  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Well, my son is a juvenile court judge, my older son, and he agrees with what Ive said.  The problem in this country is the parents.  Its not the children.  Thats where our problems are coming from, poor parenting and no parenting and sorry parenting.  And thats the sad thing about it.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Do you get many drug cases?  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  A lot of drug cases, yes.  The ones we get are big drug cases.  The United States Attorneys Office wont take minor drug cases.  But there are occasions when state people will go right to the federal authorities to get them to prosecute a case so that the person will get a lot of time in a federal prison.  And theres no parole in the federal system.  People serve about 85% of their time.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Is the federal attorney for this Rome Division in Atlanta?  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Yes.  Yes, sir.  The Northern District of Georgia sits in four places for holding court: Gainesville, Rome, Newnan and Atlanta.  The grand juries meet in Atlanta.  The United States Attorneys Office is in Atlanta, and his assistants are all in Atlanta.  And they come out and prosecute cases out in the district in the divisions.  And each court is called a division: the Atlanta Division, Newnan Division, Rome Division and Gainesville Division.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Does the system have,, for lack of a better word or from ignorance, an administrator?  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Yes, we do.  Theres a clerk of court in Atlanta, and he has deputies in Rome and Newnan and Gainesville and deputies working for him in Atlanta.  In addition to that, we have in the Northern District of Georgia what you call a court executive, district executive, and that person looks after a lot of the management matters for the court, such as renovations to courtrooms, courthouses, acquiring of certain facilities for the courts. \r\n  \r\nSHORT:  Well, youve certainly been a good person, a good lawyer, a good judge.  And I want to thank you on behalf of the Richard B. Russell Library, the University of Georgia and myself for being with us.  \r\n \r\nMURPHY:  Well, thank you.  Im honored to participate in this program.  \r\n \r\n[END OF RECORDING] \r\n \r\n \r\n "},{"id":"gych_rogp_055","title":"Louise McBee, 03 November 2008.","collection_id":"gych_rogp","collection_title":"Reflections on Georgia Politics oral history collection, 2006-2010","dcterms_contributor":["Short, Bob, 1932-"],"dcterms_spatial":["United States, Georgia, 32.75042, -83.50018"],"dcterms_creator":["McBee, Mary Louise","Short, Bob, 1932"],"dc_date":["2008-11-03"],"dcterms_description":["Related materials available in the following collections of this repository: M. Louise McBee Papers; M. Louise McBee Papers, Series VIII. Audiovisual Materials.","Mary Louise McBee was born on June 15, 1924, in Strawberry Plains, Tennessee. She holds degrees from East Tennessee State University, Columbia University, and Ohio State University. Prior to joining the University of Georgia, Dr. McBee taught English in the Netherlands as a part of the Fulbright Scholarship Program. McBee also taught physical education in Virginia for three years, and served as the Dean of Women at East Tennessee State University for two years before joining UGA in 1963. At UGA, Dr. McBee served as the Dean of Women, the Dean of Students, the Assistant Vice President for Instruction, and the Vice President for Academic Affairs. In 1968, she served as the Dean of Women for Chapman University's World Floating Campus program. In 1988, Dr. McBee retired from the University of Georgia and participated on an expedition to Mt. Everest. In 1991, McBee ran for a seat in the Georgia House of Representatives representing Athens-Clarke County. Representative McBee served on and chaired several committees, including the Appropriations Committee, the Retirement Committee, the World Congress Center Overview Committee, and the Women's Legislative Caucus. She was elected Head of the Education Committee and contributed to the beginnings of the HOPE Scholarship in addition to working on several House Bills related to higher education. McBee was also instrumental in supporting pension plans including the Teachers' Retirement System as well as advocating against the development of a landfill in Arcade, Georgia. After serving five unopposed terms, Representative McBee retired from the General Assembly in 2004. She has continued to serve the Athens-Clarke County community through her membership on several local organizations including the Athens League of Women Voters, the Athens-Clarke County Chamber of Commerce, the Athens-Clarke County Hospital Authority, the Salvation Army Board, the Youth Empowerment System of Athens, the Arch Foundation, and the Red Cross. She has been recognized and awarded for her services and accomplishments, such as the Outstanding Alumnae Award from Eastern Tennessee State University, the University of Georgia Blue Key Award, Athens Woman of the Year, and the Second Annual Eldridge McMillan Lifetime Achievement Award.","McBee describes her life before she moved to Athens, Georgia, when she lived in Strawberry Plains, Tennessee. McBee discusses being an educator at the University of Georgia during desegregation. She also recalls climbing Mount Everest. McBee discusses the development of her interest in politics, her election to the Georgia General Assembly, and the various committees on which she served. She specifically mentions topics such as the HOPE scholarship, vouchers, the Equal Rights Amendment, and No Child Left Behind. McBee discusses the education legislation she introduced in the General Assembly as well as her work on retirement legislation. She also discusses the importance of education in the home. She also talks about party politics, campaign finance, term limits, and female politicians in Georgia. McBee recalls interactions with Phyllis Barrow, Barbara Dooley, Tom Murphy, Zell Miller, Roy Barnes, and Cathy Cox.","Finding aid available in repository.","Interviewed by Bob Short."],"dc_format":["video/mp4"],"dcterms_identifier":null,"dcterms_language":["eng"],"dcterms_publisher":null,"dc_relation":null,"dc_right":["http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"],"dcterms_is_part_of":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection","http://sclfind.libs.uga.edu/sclfind/view?docId=ead/RBRL220ROGP.xml"],"dcterms_subject":["Georgia. General Assembly. House of Representatives","United States","Georgia's HOPE Scholarship Program","No Child Left Behind Act of 2001 (United States)","Women legislators--Georgia--Interviews","Women college administrators--Georgia--Athens--Interviews","Women educators--Georgia--Athens--Interviews","College integration--Georgia--Athens--History","Educational vouchers--Georgia","Equal rights amendments--United States","Educational law and legislation--Georgia","Political parties--Georgia","Campaign funds--Georgia","Women politicians--Georgia","Campaign funds","College integration","Educational law and legislation","Educational vouchers","Equal rights amendments","Political parties","Women college administrators","Women educators","Women legislators","Women politicians","Georgia","Georgia--Athens"],"dcterms_title":["Louise McBee, 03 November 2008."],"dcterms_type":["MovingImage"],"dcterms_provenance":["Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies"],"edm_is_shown_by":null,"edm_is_shown_at":["http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-055/ohms"],"dcterms_temporal":null,"dcterms_rights_holder":null,"dcterms_bibliographic_citation":["Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection, ROGP 055, Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Libraries, Athens, Georgia, 30602-1641."],"dlg_local_right":["Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule."],"dcterms_medium":["oral histories (literary works)","interviews"],"dcterms_extent":["1 interview (69 min.) : sd., col."],"dlg_subject_personal":["Barnes, Roy E. (Roy Eugene), 1948-","McBee, Mary Louise","Miller, Zell, 1932-2018","Dooley, Barbara","Murphy, Thomas Bailey, 1924-2007"],"dcterms_subject_fast":null,"fulltext":"Louise McBee interviewed by Bob Short \r\n2008 November 3 \r\nAthens, GA \r\nReflections on Georgia Politics \r\nROGP-055 \r\nOriginal: video, 69 minutes \r\n \r\nsponsored by: \r\nRichard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies \r\nUniversity of Georgia Libraries \r\nand \r\nYoung Harris College \r\n \r\n \r\nDate of Transcription:  June 26, 2009 \r\n \r\nBOB SHORT:  Im Bob Short and this is Reflections on Georgia Politics sponsored by the Richard Russell Library at the University of Georgia.  Were honored today to have as our guess, Louise McBee, who is a former educator and six term member of the Georgia General Assembly.  Welcome. \r\n \r\nLOUISE MCBEE:  Thank you.  Good to be here. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Its a long way from Strawberry Plains, Tennessee to Athens, Georgia. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Thats right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Please tell us how you got here. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Well, I had graduated from East Tennessee State University having been born in a little community called Strawberry Plains.  Graduated there, worked a couple years after I graduated and then went to  eventually to Columbia University and got a masters degree and then to Ohio State University and got a doctorate.  Came back to East Tennessee State and served for two years as the Dean of Women and then the Dean of Students from this institution, the Vice President for Student Affairs they were they called, came to Johnson City and wanted me to come to Georgia.  I finally agreed to do that and have been here ever since.  That would have been in 1963 and it was the best move I ever made and its been a happy life here. \r\nI was born in a little community, as I said, Strawberry Plains unincorporated.  My grandparents owned a farm there.  My father worked for American Zinc Company and I had two brothers.  As little children starting seven, eight, and nine years, we were close together.  We carried the paper for nine years in Strawberry Plains.   My dad insisted that we go up on the porch, put the paper behind the door.  We had our routes divided.  But we learned a lot of lessons.  We learned about people who pay you or people who would try to not pay you, learned to save our money.  We made 20 cents a week by carrying the paper every day to people, and in Strawberry Plains the houses were not in blocks.  You walked distances sometimes between a house for 20 cents a week.  It was in some ways, we did it for nine years, the best experience as a child you could have.  You learned to take care of your money, to save enough money to pay for the paper for the next week, thats what we had to do.  And then we would divide the  keep us a little kitty, we called it, to take care of things, but divided the money so that we could use the 10 or 15 cents a piece that we would make during the week a piece for ourselves.  We learned the people that would pay, the people who would try to avoid paying you, so on.  So it was a good experience.  We learned to take care of money and we did that, as I said, for nine years.   \r\nWe all went to school there. It was a country school.  There were 15 or 16 in my graduating class.  Only two of us went on to college out of that class.  It was not a thing that you just did then.  You elected and made preparation to do it.  I worked during the summer in Gatlinburg as a waitress in a hotel and then the next three summers I worked at Oak Ridge.  That was during the war.  You had to have college experience to work in the job.  I was with Carbine Carbon, worked all summer, lived out in Oak Ridge, and was there the nigh the atom bomb was dropped.  Having no knowledge of what an atom bomb was really, but they were selling papers as we came out of the midnight shift, saying that the atom bomb had been dropped. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Did you know when you left for college that you wanted to be an educator? \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Yes.  I got two degrees  I mean two certifications by my work.  I was certified to teach in elementary school.  They used to separate it.  They may do that now; I dont know, but I was certified to teach by law in the elementary school and in high school and ended up one year  I worked one year in a high school in Virginia and then came back to East Tennessee State.  They brought me back to the institution there to teach, and I stayed there three years and then went on to my masters and my doctorate.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  What did you teach? \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Physical education. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Physical education.  Youre a prime example of what a good physical education  \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Thats right.  Thats right.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  -- major should look like. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Thats right.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:   You came to the University of Georgia after the crisis they had whether or not...  \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  To admit Charlene and  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yes. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Yes, that was all over and they had graduated, but the problems were not over by any stretch.  There was still some anger.  There were not many blacks on the campus, practically none.  The day I went to work I was in -- my office was in academic building that looked down on the Varsity, which at that time was a restaurant. The day I went to work the blacks, the African-Americans were marching around the Varsity because they were not allowed to go into eat, and I know being bothered by that.  And we continued to have demonstrations, small demonstrations on the campus and students on the campus  black students. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Youve seen a lot of change here. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Lot of change.  Lot of change.  It was under my administration as vice-president I had put one of my assistant vice-presidents -- associate vice-presidents to work.  That was his job to try to bring more African-American students to the campus and he did. Not only the students but principally faculty, to find African-American faculty that could do the job on a college campus and try to  and I know we hired several under my administration.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You climbed the academic ladder here all the way to Vice-President of Academic Affairs.  \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  I did. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  That was before your campaign for the Georgia election. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Yeah.  Well I started  I came here as Dean of Women and then I was made Dean of Students, which is the top position in Student Affairs and has the other offices under it. I stayed in that a while and then the Vice-President for Academic Affairs asked me if I would like to come and work in his office.  We had just gotten through some of the demonstrations, the Vietnam War, Kent State killings, and I was ready to try something else having gone through that. So, having the opportunity open to me to move into Academic Affairs, I did it and stayed as an assistant and then an Associate Vice-President for Academic Affairs and then eventually Vice-President for Academic Affairs.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well the academic ladder is not the only thing youve climbed.  Tell us about Mount Everest. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  The year I retired, 1988, I had a student come to  that previous summer come to work with me in my yard to help me sod my yard and he said \"Will you help me get permission from the Chinese government to go to Mount Everest.\"  I knew he was a climber, a young guy who did a lot of climbing.  I said, Well, sure I will.  And he said, \"Well take you with us.\" I considered it just a light moment. But I did get permission for them to go to China.  It got in the paper that Dr. Sanford, who was the president, and I were going to go with them. So, without much thought  more thought about what it would be than that, we did indeed go. At that point, after we finished the climb, according to the records, I was the oldest woman who had ever gone to the base camp at Mount Everest, which was 18,000  about 18,000 feet.  It was a dangerous journey, one I never would have dreamed would be as difficult as it was, but I did okay and Dr. Sanford who was 20 years older than I was  or Im not sure of that  but much older than I was, he made it as well.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  How did you get interested in politics? \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  My parents always voted; one was a Democrat and one was Republican and we used to  they talked about canceling out each others vote and we always knew voting  or was told it was important and that it was your public responsibility to do it and as soon as I was old enough I registered to vote   but you take on a new interest in it when you get into academic settings where the quality of legislators you get has a lot to do with the support for education. So, I had never had any intention of running but Lawton Stephens, who was in  well, was a legislator and lived here in Athens, was called to  what do you call it?  A judge. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Superior court  \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  A judge.  And his sister called me that afternoon and told me  just she was calling about something else, that Judge Lawton had just been made a judge.  He was in the legislature and it had just happened. So I turned around, went to  as soon as I finished that conversation went to the telephone and called the paper and the radio station and said I was going to run for his office.  Some people had encouraged me to run for mayor of Athens.  They called it something else then.  City Manager or something.  But I was not interested in that. I had been out of my job at the university for a year or so. So, I just, on a whim, almost without really giving it much thought went and called and said I was going to run.   \r\nAnd then I called Phyllis Barra, who was a Democratic delegate to several of the conventions and so on, and was a friend of mine, and I called her and I said, \"Ive done this, what in the world do I do next?\"  She told me what to do.  She said \"Sit down now and call everybody you call this weekend and ask them to support you.\" It was going to be a nonpartisan election, which was good.   So, I did that.  I did exactly what she said and asked them to support me. So, I had a whole list and I set me up a committee.  Well, during the next week  to make things interesting, during the next week Barbara Dooley called me and said, \"Would you come over here and talk with me.\"  I knew just as well as anything that she was getting ready to run against me, but I went over there and she said that she had thought about it and she wanted to do that.  And she said, What do you think?  And I said, \"Well, of course Id rather you didnt but its your right and well have a good race.\" So, she got in it and so did Chester Sosbee, who was a well known, popular pharmacist at Hodgson's Pharmacy.  And so there were three of us in the race and I didnt think I had a clue -- the possibility of winning it, certainly not outright, maybe on a runoff with three people.  But I won the race with  won it without a runoff.  I got 60% of the votes, 61% of the votes. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Thats the only time you had opposition. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  I didnt have any opposition any time else.  And I served for 13 years. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Thats a compliment to your service.  \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Well, I hope so.  I really did  I gave it my all.  I enjoyed it thoroughly.  Speaker Murphy, I had heard about him and knew about him.  He was a wonderful man.  Unfortunately, not until he died did the papers and all the people who knew and admired him secretly and privately come forth.  He got criticized probably more than any politician I ever saw in the paper.  But he was a good, kind, honest man, and he was particularly sensitive to women being in the legislature and tried to help them. So, I went to see him when I first got over there.  I knew my main interest was going to be education.  He put me on the Higher Education Committee. So, I had 13 years of good service under Tom Murphy.  Well, not the last year I didnt, because he got beat.  He was defeated in his last run, the same time at my last run. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  I imagine with your background and education and your work here at the University of Georgia made you very important to the Speaker and to the leaders and the governor. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Well, I was only one of two at that  when I got there.  I think there may have been others later who were tied to higher education and just three or four who were actually teachers that came out of that background.  So, I was made eventually chair of higher education and certainly worked at a crucial period in higher education because it was when the HOPE Scholarship came along and we had to work with the provisions along with president  I mean Governor  who had been responsible for bringing it to bear.  You know, I cant think of the governor  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Governor Miller? \r\n \r\nMCBEE:   Miller.  Governor Miller.  And so, it was a wonderful opportunity to work with him and later with Roy Barnes in developing and expanding and testing after each year the amount of money we spent and what we could continue to do to give students more assistance and so on.  The Hope Scholarship, in my opinion, was the best thing that happened to this state in that century.  Why?  It kept the better students in the state.  Because when they had good grades parents said \"No need for you to go to wherever, go here and go to the university, go to some college in the state.\" Secondly, it gave hope and promise to students who would have never seen it as an opportunity until -- they could make good grades but school was too expensive for them and they never saw it as an opportunity.  Once that opened up they and their parents saw it.  And so, higher education became a part of their aspiration.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well since weve passed the lottery and since the people have approved it, weve spent a lot more funds on public schools  \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Thats right.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  -- than ever. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Thats right.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Are we getting our monies worth?   \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Well, we still have a long way to go.  Theres some data that is really interesting to me.  It was Roy Barnes data but I expect its still accurate.  He says for every ten boys and girls that go to college  I mean that go to school, public schools, six of them finish the eighth  lets see, no  nine of them, ten of them finish the eighth grade, three of them go on to college  no, three of them go on to high school  I mean to college, and two of them finally get a degree.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Uh-huh. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  So we still dont have a high percentage of  I mean they need to correct that data on it.  Ill look to be sure that Im right on that, but its one out  it amounts to about one out of ten.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  We hear suggestions from time to time that the state should provide vouchers for students in order to attend the school of their choice.  Is that a good idea? \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Well, in effect, they have a voucher, if they come out with a B average in high school they can go to any college in the state.  It costs more in some of them and some of the schools done admit them, but they can go somewhere in the state because private schools get it as well.  So theres no reason why if they have done the work in high school they cant go wherever they want to go and where the college will admit them. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Ive been asked to ask you your position on ERA, Equal Rights Amendment.   \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Well, I dont have any problem with it.  Georgia hadnt passed it yet.  Why not?  Why shouldnt there be?  Why?  Why not?   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Lets go back for a minute to the composition of the Georgia Legislature when you were there.  According to my calculations, only 10% for the House of Representatives was female.   \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Uh-huh.  Its a little higher now.  I think its maybe up 15, maybe  seemed like there were about 45 of us.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Uh-huh. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Forty or forty-five when I was there.   There are a few more now.  But not nearly enough.  But country wide I think its what?  About 23%.  So, aside from Arizona, we do about as well as anybody.  But its not high enough anywhere.  That was one of the things that I admired about Speaker Murphy.  He gave women leadership positions. He saw that they were listened to on bills, he put them on committees that they requested and had some expertise in, like children's and education and so on and tried to support them in their  and help them with bills.  He was a great help to women.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Tell us, if you will, your role in educational legislation while you were down in Atlanta. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Well I had four bills that are my picks for what I have  what I did while I was there.  Im going to get them so I can give you  even give you the numbers of them.  There are four that I take great pride in.  One was House Bill 202, which gave teachers credit toward retirement for unused sick leave.  No teacher in the state, man or woman, whatever, had got credit for unused sick leave when every other state employee did.  It took us two years to fund it, but Roy Barnes, Governor Barnes helped me get it funded by splitting it into two years.  But now teachers get retirement just like other state employees.  And that was something that I was really pleased to be able to do.   \r\nAnother bill was House Bill 424 which established a college saving plan.  Parents or grandparents can deposit monies, tax free, in a saving plan thats managed by the State Treasurers Office and when the student starts to college the money can come out interest free.  Theyve made interest on it but its theirs to use for that childs education. We encouraged parents and grandparents at the birth of a child, as we  as I worked for the bill, to do that, to put a little bit of money in each  into the childs plan that would be tax free so that they would be ready to go to college.   \r\nThe third bill was the one that  the work that I did with the Hope Scholarship after it had been in practice, we had used it for a while in the years that I was there, we thought it needed a study and I led the study commission bill on that.  And then a fourth bill that I worked on that not many people even knew about but probably did more for Athens than anything in terms of the environment of Athens, and it was one that  there was a person who tried to set up a landfill in Arcade.  The way it would have been there would have been a truck every three minutes coming from all over the country, brining in garbage to put in Arcade, 15 miles from Athens. I was able to work on it in the House, and with help in the Senate to stop that bill.  The bill that I wanted that  for which there was  I had the greatest disappointment was a bill that I had put in that would have put up dollar tax on every pack of cigarettes.  Why?  Because theres all kinds of data that show that the cost of the cigarette is a deterrent especially to young people.  The bill that beat it was one that the current governor had in that put a 25 or 50 cent  25 cents, I think, tax on it.  My bill would have produced over $600 million each year and could have been used for so many things, and in addition, kept young people  would have reduced teenage smoking.  So those were the things that I was  that I did in the legislature that I was most pleased with.  And I was on the Retirement Committee and on the Budget Committee and on Higher Education, and those were three that gave me an opportunity to work for the things that I knew the best and to try to bring funds into the thing that I knew the best.  \r\nThe Speaker was good in that he would try, if possible, to put you into committees where you could be the best advocate and the best sponsor and know the most about it.  And so, that was what he did for me and I feel like I did a lot for education when I was over there, and particularly for the teachers in terms of getting the same retirement that other state employees had always had, and that none of us who had worked for it got.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  We hear a lot about our students average on the SAT scores and what is considered to be an awful dropout rate.  \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  What can we do to improve those two and maybe bring them up to the national average? \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Well, of course we all know that the best education the child gets is what he gets home starting at three years old when parents read to them, encourage them to read and start with books and keep them away from TVs and so on. So, a part of the job is to educate parents. We have particular difficulty I think with that where the parents both work and thats the situation generally in the poorest families.  Both parents work, mother has to come in, get supper, get the clothes ready for the next day and all the chores of a housewife, and not much time left to work with the children. Unless children are encouraged to read from the time  or are read to by the time theyre three years old, they say they never catch up.  Ive seen data on that.  I dont know it to be a fact but I assume since they put out as a fact that it is, that unless a child is read to starting at least by the third grade that theres a lapse there that never allows them to catch.  And when both parents work and particularly in the homes where theres not help and homes where the financial situation is not as good, thats the place where they dont get read to and they put them down in front of the TV set and they eat too much and get too much weight on them and dont learn the things that they need to learn to get through. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  How effective has Governor Millers pre-kindergarten program been? \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Well I think great.  We know from all kinds of data that the better the student the earlier the start.  And unfortunately, at this point anyway, there are not enough of them.  Theres students in this state who are eligible for it who cant get to it, they dont have enough programs.  But the lottery money is there for it.  I dont know what the hold up on that is, but they say that there are still places that they dont have adequate pre-kindergarten. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Going all the way back to Governor Herman Talmadge in 1948, every governor has called themselves the education governor.  Which one has come closest to being a true educational governor?   \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Well, in my opinion, I was not here until in the 60s and I didnt know as much about it, but in my opinion, Zell Miller, because of the HOPE Scholarship.  I dont think there was anything in that century that did for this state what that did.  As I said a little earlier, it did two things.  One, it kept good students in the state.  They were going to Chapel Hill and Vanderbilt and places, but the HOPE Scholarship, when they were eligible for it, parents would say, well, you just stay here; you got that, you need to just stay here and then you can put the  money on your masters degree  and so on.   So it kept the better students in the state  good students in the state.  And secondly, it provided an emphasis and a feeling among the children who had not seen a higher education as a possibility.  It gave them hope that that was a possibility and opened the doors to more people. Theres no question about it.  Weve had  what is it now?  Over 900,000  maybe its over a million now whove gone to college on the Hope Scholarship.  And then it also encouraged students to make better grades.  The students who saw that as a way to get into college, to have help to get into college, to do well while they were in high school. \r\n \r\nSHORT:   Besides education, what were some of the other issues you were interested in when you were in the legislature? \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Well I asked to be on the Retirement Committee because, as I said, teachers  I was the first one to get  I left the university without a retirement committee.  I was able to put that in and work for other benefits for people  teachers who were retiring.  Theres a thing going on right now that the governors behind that  its a terrible thing.  Hes trying to take that one and a half percentage that teachers get each six months, make it optional for them to get it.  Maybe you get it if theres money available.  Well, there is money in that fund.  Theres $50 billion in that fund right now.  Plenty in it but hes wanting to look at it for other things.  When its teachers money who have gone into that with that idea.  We have teachers now all over this state whove made $25,000 and $30,000; that was their salary.  Without that one and a half percent that comes in addition to their salary that comes now every six months they cant make it.  And I have  I just came here out of a meeting where we are encouraging them to write the committee thats making a decision on that, to keep them in that where they dont have  where that cant be taken away from them by the governor.   We have not had an education governor this time, unfortunately.  He has not  hes a Georgia graduate, and Im sorry I cant  I have to say that, but I must say it, that his greatest interest has not been in education. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Getting back to your service in the House, who are some of the most effective members with whom you worked? \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Dubose Porter, whos chair of  or he was chair of the  some of the large committees.  Bill Cummings, who himself was a teacher, the current Secretary of State -- right now his name slips me  who was in the house then and was Governor Millers floor leader.  Kathy Ash, who is still there.  Shes into her probably 18th to 20th year, Nan Orrock, those are some of the ones.  Now most of those are Democrats because I was there when the House was predominantly  House and Senate predominantly Democratic and certainly the leadership was Democratic.  Its not the case now and I dont  so I've had no opportunity to observe them in the same way that I did when I was there.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Did you have a mentor in the House? \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  I guess Bill Cummings.  He had been there 20 years.  He was a teacher.  He was chair of the Education Committee and I served as vice-chair of it with him.  He  and he particularly knew public education more than higher education. There were only  there were just two of us that were from higher education in the whole Senate, the whole House  the whole Senate and House.  There were just two people from higher education.  I was one and an African- American from Atlanta, who was at one of the black colleges. We were the only two that represented higher education.   \r\n \r\nSHORT: You were also on the Appropriations Committee. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Yep.  And I fought in that for education.  That was first and foremost my whole time over there was to do what I could for education.  And unfortunately, thats  that has slowed down some in recent years, and not to our credit.  Not to the credit of the  of the leadership.  Education is job one for  if were going to have a good state.  Its job one.  Were just not putting the money and the interest and the time on it that it deserves. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  The local school boards seem to be concerned about the governors order to spend 65%, at least, of the state appropriations in the classroom.  Is that a good idea? \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Well, I would want to see the  I have not seen the details of it.  Im pleased that hes interested in putting more money and emphasis on education.  I have not been pleased thus far with what has been done under the current Secretary of Education, Cathy Cox.  I think  I dont know much  I dont know how much of it is interference from other areas but it doesnt seem to me that she has had the freedom and the energy, the direction or whatever is needed to move us forward in education.  We dont  were not graduating enough of the people who start in the first grade. Until we keep them through and graduated from high school, students  students who dont graduate from high school cant get jobs. We can never raise the level of this state without working with those people and more deliberately and putting enough emphasis on it that during their  around the 7th and 8th grade and freshmen is when we lose them. Theyll stay that long and then they pull out. We just cant  the state cant move up with its about  what?  Arent we about 45% black? A lot of that happens in the black community.  They drop out and go to work.  Ive just been in a meeting where weve been talking about that and where if we could keep them in the technical colleges where they could learn a trade or some way to make a good living.  Plumbers, electricians, those people make as much  make more than teachers. If we could keep those students in until they were eligible to get into the technical schools, they could go even though there are college  there are college level courses they can take now in the technical college, which I thought was a mistake.  But its done so its there.  But there are also the technical roots they can then take where they can learn to be plumbers and electricians in areas that dont demand high academic skills but where theres a good wage that goes with it when they get trained in those areas. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Has the Federal No Child Left Behind pact been effective? \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  All Ive heard about it, it sounds good, but I dont know anything its done.  I have not seen any data that show its been effective.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Talking about the Appropriations Committee, are you familiar with The Green Door? \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Well, I always heard about it but it was not one I was every behind or even knew where it was.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Really. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  I heard Paul Broun was supposed to be on it and he was from Athens.  I dont know that I ever asked him about it.  I guess if I had he would have certainly told me.  I thought it was more kind of a charm and mystique or something than it was  I knew that there was a meeting after we did appropriations and so on and there was always one up in one of the large meeting rooms and anybody could go and sit around the edge and try to hear what they were talking about and what they were saying, and I use to do that, just to show them that I was there and that I was interested in what they were putting on higher education.   But if there is indeed any kind of a room  a green room where the final decisions are made I never saw it.   But it could be  I think its maybe another room  maybe has a different color now but they  still call it green because in the time I was over there I dont remember seeing any green door.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  It seems that the General Assembly spends a lot of time on appropriations considerations. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  They do. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And you were on that committee.  Tell us how the State Legislature appropriates our money. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Well there are subcommittees that look at  you know, at different parts of it, that look at county governments and city governments and universities and public schools and different committees handle those and then it all comes back -- funnels back in later to a full committee. A lot of attention is paid to that because no one can  no one can know the full budget.  You have to put people  the chairs of those committees who know about it and can make wise decisions. Then they appear before the full committee and make their case and I dont have any particular problem with how those things are done.  I think sometimes its changed after its been put together.  I mean when you think its been put together it gets changed that I object to  or objected to the green door, glass door, green door, whatever kind of door it was that have final say.  And I remember the one who had a lot on that is now in prison. The guy from Augusta. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Charles Walker. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Charles Walker.  He was the chair in the Senate and very powerful. What he said went and I remember that last year he was there and I was on the committee and how he would roar into the room and make pronouncements.  As it turned out, you know, he was not completely ethical in his own private life and he appealed to be let out early not too long ago but it was denied.  I think we have three in prison right now from the legislature.  Hes one of them.  The other guy was  I had his name in some of my notes  was from the same town. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Robin Williams. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Robin Williams, thats one.  And then there was one that was put in this past year just as an  African-American from there in Atlanta. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Ron Sailor. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Right. I knew all three of those. When things like that happen its  it puts a distrust in the larger population for the legislature whole when it mostly theyre good, honest people who want to do whats right. So, Im for locking them up and keeping them there.  Im angry enough at what they do to disillusion the public about it.  Because a lot of people who are on those committees work long and hard and are honest and want to do whats right.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  How did you look at lobbyists? \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Well, I knew a lot of good people were over there and gave  were able to give you good information and I went to some of them when I didnt understand things. They stayed  most of them anyway -- well informed about different bills and so on.  I didnt ever have one influence me.  Ive had some talk to me but not in an effort to persuade me to vote a certain way.  Theyve asked me why I took certain stands on it and would I consider doing something else and  but they were always  most of them were past students at the university. Thats what I found when I was in the legislature that most of them, they knew me and I knew them.  A lot of them called me Dean McBee because they had been students here when I was a dean.  It made it easier to work with them having known them as a student and there having known me and we respected each other and it was a large percentage of Georgia graduates in the legislature.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  The university has been very fortunate over the years to have some strong representation -- \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Thats true. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  -- over there, including you.   \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Starting way  starting way back with  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Chapel  \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Chapel Matthews, and then of course with Paul Brown, who was there thirty  what?  33 years? Part of that was while I was there.  The one who now has certainly, in terms of years, a status is Keith Heard.  He doesnt live in Athens which limits his influence.  I thought you were supposed to live in the town where you serve but maybe thats not the rule.  I dont know.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  In the district. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Or in the district.  Well  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  That brings up an interesting thing that to me at least is reapportionment. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Weve had several reapportionments and each time theres always some sort of confusion and opposition. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Its the most political, in my book, degrading, dishonest thing that goes on.  What does it do?  For example, the smallest town in Georgia is Athens and it split it.  Ralph Hudgens did it.  Why did he do it?  I dont know.  Hes never given me a good explanation.  He said he thought it strengthened the city.  Well how do you strengthen it? He took the reapportionment away from Madison County, said it was not best for them, but then he divided Athens.  I thought it was so he could get tickets to the football game.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Is it fair to say that our legislative districts have been drawn to protect parties... \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Thats right.  No question. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  ...and for racial reasons rather than binding communities together -- \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  No question.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  -- that seem to be falling apart.  \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Why would you split Athens for any reason other than to afford you a seat in it so it would give you leverage?  No reason at all.  A lot of the -- some states do it different.  Iowa is one state I believe that does it different.  I dont know whether I put in a bill  I think I maybe did put in a bill.  I wanted it so much to be some kind of a citizens committee that would work with the legislature.  I dont know -- I dont think the committee  Im pretty sure I had the bill drawn. Whether it ever got  it didnt get out of committee if I did.  But to stop that kind of unfair, unjust, wrong kind of things like splitting Athens, the smallest town in the state for no reason, for no reason other than political reasons. So, and Im sure there would be some that go on even if you had Citizens Committee, but I believe it would be limited.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Uh-huh.  Getting back to Louis McBee, you decided in 1994 not to run again. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Right.  Two reasons.  I had family problems in Tennessee where I needed to be free to go back there and see about them.  Then I saw that it was going Republican; I knew I would lose my chair, my position on higher education, and so, those were the two things that entered into it.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Now, speaking of going Republican, Id like to ask you a question or two about party politics.   \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Okay. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  As we all know, the Republican party has now taken control of the legislature.   \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  And the governors office.   \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  What happened?   \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Well, I really dont know.  But thats when I left dodge, as they say, because I knew that things were going to  going to turn and that I would lose my chair and not be able to do as much.  And as I said, and because of personal problems.  But I think were going to see a shift back to a more balanced party this next year.  I dont think the Democrats will take over but I think there will be more of them there.  I may be wrong.  Well know day after tomorrow.  But what interested me this year, and Ive asked several people and they have no explanation, why so few had opposition.  Not a one of ours had opposition.  Well I guess  I know Keith didnt and the other one didnt.  Well I dont think any of them did.  Yeah, Kauser, a womans running against him.  Thats right.  Kauser, you know, the senator had opposition, not formidable opposition I dont think, but opposition.  But why dont they run?   One, its costly.  When I ran the first time in 19-- was it 91 or whatever? I put up $15,000  well when Barbara Dooley got in it I knew she would raise a lot more money and I finally raised 35,000 but I didnt spend it all.  Now they tell you up front you got to raise a $100,000, got to have that to start with and it will take more than that.  Well a lot of people  and that means you got to ask people for money or put your own money up.  I know one senator over there, a woman, who put $500 -- $5,000 of her own money up.  Well, you got to want it a lot to do that kind of thing. So, that was one of the reasons I backed off.  Then I saw it was going Republican and I'd lose my chair and then I had some problems in Tennessee, so all of that together, I decided to back out.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Some people, Democrats, believe that Tom Murphy in the House of Representatives was the key to Democratic politics in Georgia.  Do you agree with that? \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Thats probably  thats probably true, yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  With Murphy as Speaker?  \r\n \r\nMCBEE: Yeah.  But also, a difference in population trends.  Atlanta grew rapidly. Whered they come from? They didnt come from south Georgia; they came from all over the country.  I think that new mass that moved into Athens  I mean into Atlanta and Georgia, and particularly Atlanta, came with Republican leanings, and its going to be interesting.  Some people are predicting Obama will take Georgia this time.  I dont much believe he will but I think it will be closer than it would have been a few years ago.    \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Now speaking of that, politics in Georgia certainly have changed, but perhaps not as much as politics in other areas.  What do you think the Democrats need to do to regain their majority in Georgia state government? \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Well, I dont know.  They say  Ive talked to several of them.  They think theyll take back a few seats this time.  But if youve got a Republican contingency, I mean population around you, and youve got a governor who pours money into it and other people who support people in their races.  I noticed in yesterdays paper the man who owns the Falcons had given $65,000 and it listed a whole bunch of other people.  He just happened to be the name I recognized.  Did you see that?  Where theyd given $65,000 to candidates?  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yes. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  When it gets that expensive it causes people to back off on running.  And Im sorry to see that happen because it restricts people who would be good legislators.  And it tends to turn it to the wealthy or the people who have influence and tend to leave out the  more moderate and the poorer people.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Some disenchanted Democrats believe the state Democratic party is too urban and too dependent on minority and labor support.  Do you agree with that? \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Well, its probably pretty accurate. A lot of people are concerned about what Obama will do if hes elected in terms of the people who will have elected him and what the expectations there are from those people.  Some people, particularly Republicans, are very concerned about what will happen to the country with  Im  hoping he will have a proper perspective on it and wont be  try to make too many changes too rapidly.  But there are some people that thing that hell be -- that hes a risk because of that, because of his promises to make life better for people who are poorer and many of those, or in this state anyway, are the black, but well just have to wait and see on that.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Now many states require party registration to prevent cross over voting.  \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Uh-huh. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Should we do that in Georgia? \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  I dont have any problem with that.  I believe you ought to vote on  for what you consider to be the best person and make party less of an issue than it is.  I know that that doesnt sound like somebody whos run as a party person, because you have to, but I wouldnt have any problem with  and I vote  I cross party lines to vote.  I vote for Republicans as often as I do Democrats.  I voted for Republican presidents.  I try to vote for the person that I think is the best for the country and I know that thats not strong political ties but thats the way  thats the way I do it anyway. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Do you believe in term limits? \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Im torn on that.  Generally I do.  I think they should be lengthened maybe to  not just ten years.  You know, we got people  that guy thats been stealing us blind in  Washington that they just sent home, you know, has been up there 27 years or something.  Thats too long I think.  If you had a procedure where you didnt rotate them all out at the same time, I mean, youd have to get some kind of  pattern to keep the people with experience  some experience in, but I think that some limit on it might be good. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  But you agree theres power in incumbency? \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Yeah.  Yeah, theirs is.  Theres no question.  No question.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Some people think that one reason the Republican party in Georgia has been successful is the quality of candidates.   \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Well, maybe I look too hard but I dont have to look very far to find a few Republicans that I dont think were good choices.  I think our  of course, and hes the first Republican weve had in  the current governor is the first  Republican weve had.  I believe people will  there will be a Democrat the next time.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Uh-huh.  Well, back to Louise McBee.  Very wonderful, academic and political life.   \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Well thank you. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Did you ever think of seeking higher office? \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  No.  No.  No, I didnt.  No.  One, the cost of it, the  I look at Jim Martin whos a good friend of mine.  I sat in front of him for 13 years and on vote and policies that I was not sure on I discussed them with him.  Hes a good man.  He is really a good man.  I see the punishment hes had to take to be  have his life criticized when hes been so good.  Of course hes criticizing his opponent at the same time.  I never did have to do any of that when I was running and I dont think I would do it if I were running, but I dont like that part of it where they tell things about the other person that if theyre not untrue theyre certainly bordering on untruth, and where theyre so unkind to the other person.  Women do that less than the men I think.  I think women are going to be increasing their running for public office.  They make good candidates because theyre conscientious, theyre generally more honest.  If theres been any dishonest woman put out I dont know about it.  Has there been?  For taking money?   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Not to my knowledge. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Not to my knowledge.  They certainly are more dedicated and theyre interested in things that we need to look at, like family, and home, and children, and strengthening the American fabric, and I think were going to increasingly see  its about 23% now across the country, about the same here in Georgia, of women in public office, but I think were going to see more than that going into public office and I think it will put a better quality on the total body for having them there.  Dont you? \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yes, I do.  Yes.  If a young lady came to you today and asked your advice on getting into politics what would you tell her? \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Well I would tell her that its a very challenging thing to do, its a costly thing to do.  It takes a lot of your time.  It sets you up for criticism that sometimes hurts.  But its a wonderful way to serve and that I hope they will consider it and do it, knowing that those things are part of the  a part of it.  Because I think where women have been elected they serve well and they perform well.  I dont think -- theres one exception to it right now that Im concerned about.  The Secretary of State, I think she has not  been as accommodating as she could have been in trying to help people get the vote.  I think its important for people that they want to vote and need to be able to vote.  And to wait 12 hours seems unnecessary to me.  She has, either because of the regulations in her office, but apparently just because of her own unwillingness to make any changes, has kept people who want to vote at very difficult circumstances, where they have to stand hours and hours and hours in trying to get other hours  the hours extended or an additional voting places.  It looks like to me that we could do that when people are wanting to vote.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Uh-huh.  Well, as you look back on you career, what has been your greatest accomplishment?   \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Well I think probably in terms of public service, and all of it has been public service, whether its higher education or the legislature, in terms of the legislature, I think it was the three bills  four bills that, really three that I mentioned to you in the beginning, that I was most proud of.  Then in terms of higher education, I think it has been to have been in a position in a  primarily in a wonderful university where I had the opportunity to make it better, which I think I did in my 25 years and that I have been able to work with some of the leaders of this state and some of the best, finest young people in this state who now themselves have taken leadership positions in the state and its a source of great pride to me when I see students like Cathy Cox whos now the president of Young Harris and who was a very fine Secretary of State and then others who are over there now who  that I had an opportunity in their young life to have some influence.   \r\n \r\nSHORT: Your biggest disappointment? \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Well, I dont know.  I think probably it was a piece of legislation that I failed to get through that I thought would have brought money into this state that could have been used in so many ways and would have stopped people from smoking.  That bill that I had put a dollar on a pack of cigarettes for tax.  I forget how much, just the 25 cent tax, how much money it made, but I think it was 600,000 a year maybe in tax money. Would one, stop students from smoking, young particularly who another dollar would just be too much for them, and so protect health but also provide money that could be used for education purposes, not be able to get that bill through. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  How would you like to be remembered? \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  As somebody who was honest, open, cared about people, and tried as best I could to do what was right. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, thank you very much, Louise McBee, for being our guest today. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Well, thank you.  Ive enjoyed talking with you. \r\n \r\nSHORT: Good, thanks.  Anything we missed? \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  No, I dont think  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Oh, theres one thing that I didnt ask you to do which I would like to ask you now if you will is tell us about some of your extracurricular activities that has resulted in your winning all kinds of awards.  Some are education, some are community. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Well I won the first Regents Award for Excellence where they take you to Atlanta and its called the Eldridge McMillan trophy, but I got the first one.  That was for my work in higher education.   \r\n \r\nSHORT: You were also a Fulbright Scholar. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  I was a Fulbright Scholar in Holland for a year.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  What happened over there? \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Well I taught in a [Indiscernible] a high school  a higher school. Its a higher level student  women students who were going on to university.  I taught for a year there and then went to the Holy Land during the end of the year and then traveled in a car that I bought while I was there.  A friend came over and we traveled all over Europe that next summer.  So that has to be one of the highlights to have lived a year in Europe and taught in a wonderful school.  I lived in the home of the master  of the  he was the harbor master of Rotterdam, which is the largest  was then, I guess it still is the largest port in the world.  Then climbing to 18,000 on Everest is something that at least the data that I have seen, theres no woman beyond that high on Everest yet.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You still do a lot of physical activity. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Yeah, I do.  I do.  I was  I played tennis  I was still playing tennis on a team until when that car hit me and knocked me down in the shopping center.  It messed up my rotator cuff and I cant  I cant do it any more.  The doctor said it was too bad shape.  I cant raise my arm enough to hit a ball down.  But  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  But you do like  you do  \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  But I walk two miles every day and work in my yard. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You like water canoeing. \r\n \r\nMCBEE: Yeah, well I  yeah, Ive gone several times down the Chattooga.  You ever done that? \r\n \r\nSHORT:  You know thats my home area. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Well, Ill tell you its exciting. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yes, it is. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Yeah, Ive gone down that half a dozen times.  Then I went down the Colorado River on a raft.  Ive traveled all over the world.  Really the only place I have not been is in the Middle East where they fight so much over there you cant find the time to go.  You know.  But other that that, Ive traveled all over the world.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Do you still maintain an interest in politics and -- \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Oh yeah. Oh boy, you better believe. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  -- campaigning? \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  You ought to see how many times I contribute to their campaigns.  Thats one of the problems.  I try to help local people but the people that are running for office in Atlanta and for the legislature, they know that I was there and theyre still there so they want you to give money.  Well you can just give so much.  But yeah, oh, I stay interested in politics for sure.  I was going to look on this page that I was trying to think of things.  I think I mostly told you.  Ive had a good life. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well, youve certainly been successful.   \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Had a good life.  Had a good life.  \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Youve done great things for the state of Georgia. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Had good parents and two good brothers and I got a lot more Im going to do.   \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Bless you. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Im not through.  You may want me back in five years. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yeah, of course.  Well youre very well respected and have done great things for the state of Georgia. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Well I appreciate it.  But the states been good to me.  When they wanted me to come to the University of Georgia I said no, and the guy that -- Dr. Sorrells came up there and he said well at least let us bring you down there one day.  You know why I got this on dont you? \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yeah, you told us. \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  Yeah. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Yeah.   \r\n \r\nMCBEE:  I said, \"Well I will come down there.\"  So I came and met all the staff and so on and  but when I went back I said I dont know, but I agreed to take it.  Well, after I got back I thought Im just not going to do it, I dont want to leave here. So, I had been meaning to call the paper and I mean say Im going to write up a reason why Im not, and it came out that I had been appointed and so I got to  and I cried all the way down here but the minute I got unpacked, from then on it was pure sunshine. \r\n \r\nSHORT:  Well that's wonderful.   \r\n \r\n[END] \r\n \r\n "}],"pages":{"current_page":2,"next_page":3,"prev_page":1,"total_pages":4,"limit_value":12,"offset_value":12,"total_count":37,"first_page?":false,"last_page?":false},"facets":[{"name":"type_facet","items":[{"value":"MovingImage","hits":37}],"options":{"sort":"count","limit":16,"offset":0,"prefix":null}},{"name":"creator_facet","items":[{"value":"Short, Bob, 1932","hits":37},{"value":"Wade, T. 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