Little Rock School District vs. Pulaski County Special School District
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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS WESTERN DIVISION LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT vs . LRC 82--866 PULASKI COUNTY SPECIAL SCHOOL DISTRICT NO . 1 , ET AL MRS . LORENE JOSHUA , ET AL KATHERINE KNIGHT, ET AL ORAL DEPOSITION OF OLIVINE ROBERTS JANUARY 9TH, 2007 BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING 620 WEST THIRD SUITE 201 LITTLE ROCK, ARKANSAS 72201 (501) 372-5115 bushmanreporting@aoi . com PLAINTIFFS DEFENDANT INTERVENORS INTERVENORS ft~CEIVED IAN 1 9 2001 OFFICE OF DESEGREGAllOH MONllORlHG APPEARANCE OF COUNSEL ON BEHALF OF PLAINTIFF: MR . CHRISTOPHER HELLER FRIDAY , ELDREDGE & CLARK , LLP 2000 REGIONS CENTER 400 WEST CAPITOL AVENUE LITTLE ROCK , AR . 72201 ON BEHALF OF JOSHUA INTERVENORS: MR . JOHN WALKER , P .A. 1723 BROADWAY LITTLE ROCK , AR . 72206 STATE OF ARKANSAS OFFICE OF ATTY GENERAL: SCOTT P. RICHARDSON ASS I STANT ATTORNEY GENERAL 323 CENTER STREET SUITE 1100 LITTLE ROCK , AR . 72201 2 STYLE AND NUMBER APPEARANCES STIPULATION PAGE I N D E X Examination by Mr. Walker .. ... . ..... . . . . .. . .. . .. . .. . . Examination by Mr . Heller .... ..... . . .. .. . .. . .... .... . Further examination by Mr . Walker . .. . .. . . . .. . . . .. . .. . Deposition concluded . .... . ... . ... . . .. . . . ... . . . . . . . . . COURT REPORTER ' S CERTIFICATE BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 1 3 5 85 86 90 91 3 4 OLIVINE ROBERTS PRODUCED , SWORN , AND EXAMINED at the law office of John Walker , 1723 Broadway , in Little Rock , Arkansas , beginning at 2 p .m. on January 9th , 2007 , the above - entitled cause now pending in the United States District Court , Eastern District of Arkansas , Western Division , said deposition being taken pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure , by agreement of counsel , at the instance of counsel for Joshua Intervenors . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 -I I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR . WALKER : Q State your name , please . A Q Olivine Roberts . Dr . Roberts , where did you get your doctorate degree? A University of Central Florida . Q Do you recall your dissertation? A Yes . Relationship Between Student Learning and , I think , Leadership at the High School Level , something to that effect . It was instructional leadership . The correlation between instructional leadership and the principalship at the secondary level . Q Where did you attend college? A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q University of Central Florida . Where did you attend graduate school? University of Central Florida . All if it was at the same institution? Yes . Were you a cum laude graduate or above at college? For my masters and doctorate , yes
undergrad , no. I see. When did you first meet Dr . Brooks? 2000 , if I 'm not mistaken . And where were you working at that time? For the Orange County Public School System. What was your job? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537 - 5110 5 I I I I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 6 A At that time , I was the math coordinator supervisor for the district , math/science . Q Were you an area coordinator or were you city- wide coordinator? A This was for the ent i re district at the time . Q A Q A Q Was that elementary or secondary? K- 12 . Now , a coordinator is not like a director normally? No , not here -- it would not be aligned to that , no . I see . So that was a mid- level management position , would you say? A I would not say it was management . It was more a support position . Q Support . Okay . Did you report to a person with a higher sounding title? A Q A Q I reported to -- yes , the director of curriculum . Did the director of curriculum report to somebody? The associate superintendent for curriculum . Okay . Did you ever hold a position higher than coordinator when you were in Florida? A Yes . I was the senior administrator for curriculum and instruction for the south learning community. Q A Q That ' s an area? Yes . All right . So you moved from coordinator to another BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537 - 5110 1 2 I 3 I 4 5 I 6 7 ~ 8 9 10 ~ 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 position above that? A Yes . Q Still below director of curriculum? A Yes . I reported directly to the director . Q So you were not a senior administrator when you came here? A I was a senior administrator for Orange County , yes . In terms of a senior administrator at the cabinet level? Is that what you ' re asking me? Q Yes , that ' s what I mean . A No . Q I see . So you ' ve never been in a cabinet position before you came here? A No . Q I see . How long had you been an administrator when you came here? A Four years , going on five . Q So you ' re more or less a novice? A I would not say that , no. Q All right . In the field of education , to me -- 7 A In the field of education, one to three years is considered novice. Q I see . Have you written any books or anything? A No , I ' ve not written any books, no . Q Have you published any articles in any learning journals? A No , I ' ve not published any , no . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 I I I Q 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Have you been a co- author of anything anywhere subsequent to your dissertation ? A That was published, no . Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A I see . Have you conducted any studies on any subject? Yes . Are those studies reported anywhere ? University of Central Florida has copies of them . All right . So that ' s part of your dissertation? And my thesis . And your masters thesis? Yes . I see . What was your thesis? The Integration of Math and Science Curriculum . That ' s pretty general . For what purpose? To increase student learning . But that wasn ' t part of the title? No . It was to integrate the mathematics and science curriculum . At the time , integration was the focus . Q What integration are we talking about? School desegregation -- A Q A Q A No , the integration of the math and science curriculum. Meaning , both of them together and -- Yes . How do you teach them together . --causing them to be taught together? Yes . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q All right . BY MR . FINLEY : Teach them to get along . BY MR . WALTER : Teach those two subjects to get along . pretty good , Mr . Fi nley . BY MR . WALKER : Q Al l right. Have you ever taught school? Yes . Where at? Conway Middle School . I s that in Orange County Yes , it is . Seminole Community College . What did you teach at the community college? Intermediate algebra . So you ' re really a math teacher? That is my area of discipline , yes . That ' s A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q I see . Have you ever -- is the Seminole Community College a majority white community college? A I would say yes . I don ' t know the demographics of the college . Q A But the staff was mostly white
wasn ' t it? I was an adjunct . I worked at night so I have no idea . Q And the school where you taught , was it majority white or black? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q Majority white . I see . So you ' ve never taught in a majority black school system before , have you? A Orange County is not a majority black system so , no . Q I see . What is your experience for dealing with 10 remediating educational disparities between African-American and white children? A Since the achievement gap is a national phenomena , we have the same phenomena in Orange County. Q No . What is your experience is my question . What is your experience in dealing with remediation of achievement disparities between African-American and white students? A In my role as the senior administrator for curriculum and instruction and also my role in supporting the mathematics curriculum, it was my charge to increase the student learning , at that time, within the district for African-American as well as Caucasian students . Q I see . It was sort of like Mr. Heller suggests, you want to improve the education of all students? A Isn ' t that why we ' re in education? Q For all students? A Isn't that why we ' re in education? Q No. No . No. We're not debating . So your emphasis was upon increasing the educational achievement of all students? A Yes . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q I see . It wasn't focused on remediating achievement disparities that were pre-existing between black and white students? Is that fair to say? A It is fair to say that , for those students who had deficiencies , one of my responsibilities was to identify interventions that would bridge those deficiencies . Q I see . Are you aware of any school district that has effectively dealt with narrowing the achievement gap between African-American and white students? A Q Yes . Would you name some of them? 11 A Brazosport , Texas
Aldine , Texas
I want to say Charlotte- Mecklenburg . These are the ones that I ' ve studied. Q A Q A Q A Have you read the Swann Decision? Pardon? Have you read the Swann Decision? No , I've not read the Swann Decision . You ' re not familiar with Swann versus Charlotte Mecklenburg? No . Q And it ' s your position that Charlotte had materially narrowed the achievement gap between black and white students? A There was some evidence indicating that they were on the road to closing that gap, yes , based on the articles that I've read . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q Are you talking about newspaper articles? No , sir . I 'm talking about journal articles . Tell me which journals you are referring to . A I would have to go back and research . I can ' t recall the 12 publication of the articles . These were a few years back when I was doing my dissertation so , if I may come back and respond to that . I do know that Brazosport , Texas has closed the -continues to narrow , I should say , not close , the achievement gap . Q Is it your position that Brazosport is a majority African- American school district? A I think there are some African-American students as well as Hispanic students . Q A Q it? A It ' s majority Hispanic
isn ' t it? But they ' re -- Just my question. Brazosport is majority Hispanic
isn ' t Yes , it is . Q All right . And this other Texas place is also majority Hispanic
isn ' t it? A Q Yes, it is . Do you know any place that you have studied or received information on , other than the three that you have mentioned , where the achievement gap between African- American students and white students has been addressed effectively? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 13 A The 90 - 90 - 90 study that was conducted by Doug Reeves identified schools , not necessarily districts . Q I 'm dealing with districts now . I ' ll just ask you to tell me the districts , any district . A I do not know the district at the moment . Q All right . Now , you can ' t say that there are no districts that have dealt with this
can you? A Repeat your question , please . Q You cannot say that there are no districts that have effectively dealt with addressing the achievement gap between African- American and white students
can you? A I cannot say that there are no districts that have not dealt with it . Q I see . Are you aware that at one time Little Rock made material gains in addressing the achievement gap between white and black students? A Q Please define that. The gap was being narrowed considerably during the time Mr. Paul Mason was here. Were you aware of that? A Was that before NCLB? Q A Q A Q National Conference of Black Administrators? What is NCLB? No Child Left Behind . No Child . Okay. That ' s Mr . Bush ' s initiative? Yes , it is . This was before then, yes . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 14 A Okay . So therefore , the standards movement was not in affect then . Q Well , how can you say that? A Because standards did not become a national initiative unti l then . Each s tate did not have set standards across the - country . Q Did somebody tell you that? A Pardon? Q A Q A Q A Di d someone tell you that? If you do the research - - What is your research source? Pardon? What is your research source for that conclusion? If you look at the standards Q I 'm asking for your research source for the conclusion you just uttered . A In 1983 , after a Nation at Risk was published , that ' s when that became the , I would say , the catalyst for the standards movement . The NCTM , National Standards , were not published until 1989 and states did not start adopting those standards until about , I want to say , '99 , 2000 . Q That ' s your opinion . A No , those are facts . Q You don ' t know really much about the history of the educational achievement or lack of achievement in the Little BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 15 Rock School District
do you? A Before Q Before you came here . A I have looked at the data . I have studied the data and , yes , there were some spikes but , again , when you look at the NCLB , and that is critical -- when the Arkansas Department of Education changed the testing tool that was being used , we then saw a decline . When they went from the SAT 9 to the ITBS to the Benchmark , there was a very drastic decline . Q A Q A Q Decline in what? In student achievement . Whose achievement? Black or white? Both African- American students and Caucasian students . Well , there couldn ' t be a real decline . It ' s a decline in the way it ' s measured on a particular test
isn ' t it? The achievement is the achievement . It ' s just a question of who measures it and how
isn ' t it? A The achievement should also parallel and we saw , again , between ITBS , SAT 9 and the Benchmark assessment that there was a drastic dip when the Benchmark was first administered, in relation to the SAT 9 . Q I see . Let me go back . You don ' t hold yourself out as an expert on remediating the achievement gap between black and white students
do you? A I see myself as an expert in student learning . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q That ' s yes or no . I see myself as an expert -- Please answer my question . Do you hold yourself out - BY MR . FINLEY : She ' s not required to answer your questions yes or no . BY MR . WALKER : Q Yes or no . Do you hold yourself out as an expert on 16 remediating achievement disparities between Afri can- American and white students? I 'm not aski ng how you see yourself . Do you hold yourself out as having an expertise -- A I hold myself as an expert in address i ng the deficiencies of students having difficulty learning . Q I see . Now , have you read all the court decisions in the Little Rock case? A I have read some of them . Q Can you tell me the ones you ' ve read? A I ' ve read the remedy that was issued in 2002 -- was it 2002? The one that -- 2004 . I read the last court -- the one where Bonnie Leslie and -- I forgot the lady ' s name that was over PRE at the time . I read some of those transcripts . Q You read the transcripts or the decisions? A Q A I read some of the transcripts and the decisions . How do you define transcript? What the person testified to that was recorded . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 II 8 9 q 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 17 Q So you read Dr . Leslie ' s testimony? A Yes . Q I see . Were you -- did you form an opinion as to whether or not much of the information presented by Dr . Leslie was based upon fabricated information? A No , I did not form an opinion . Q Let me ask you : What was your last salary in Orange County? A Approximately , $68 , 000 . Q And what was your first salary here? A I want to say 1-05 . Q That ' s a big jump . $40 , 000 . Did you know Dr . Brooks in Florida? A Yes , I did . Q What was your relationship with Dr . Brooks while you were in Florida? A He was my supervisor . Q I see . So you reported to him? A He was the area superintendent . Q That ' s yes or no . A I did not report directly to him , no . Q How many levels removed from him were you in the administration? A Three . Q So that meant that you were five from the senior administrative level of the school district? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A No , I was four . It was the associate superintendent , the executive director and then myself . Three . I 'm sorry . Q Did they have area superintendent A Q A Q A Q from The executive director . Was he an area superintendent? Yes , he was . I see . Were there assistant superintendents? No . All right . That ' s fine . So you were four levels removed A No , I was three . Again , it was the area superintendent , 18 the executive director who reported to the area superintendent , and I reported to the executive director . I was the third person . Q A Q And Mr . Brooks reported to whom? The superintendent . So that meant you were at the fourth level of administration? A Q Okay . If you want to view it that way . Now , did you apply for the job here or were you pre-selected? A I had to apply . I went through an interviewing process . Q I understand you did but he told you he wanted you and asked you to apply
didn ' t he? A He asked me if I would think about applying for the BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 19 position , yes . Q I see . Now , can you tell me the worst thing that you can say about Dr . DeJarnette as a professional? A I do not speak negatively about my colleagues or people who report to me . Q Well , you have to evaluate them so , in terms of the evaluation process , what is the worst thing you can say about her in terms of her qualifications? What ' s the worst thing you can say? A The evaluations that have been done in the past have been moderately good . Q A No , I 'm not Again , I will not say anything negative about anyone . Q Doctor , you have to answer my questions . In terms of her qualifications , what qualifications does she lack in order to perform or fulfill the responsibilities that she was assigned to fulfill? A Based on her evaluation Q Qualifications . A Apparently , she was qualified because she was granted ti1~ position . Q Well , that ' s apparently . I 'm asking you . A I sat on the interviewing team . I was a member of the team so , therefore , she met the qualifications outlined in the job description and -- BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Does she still meet the qualifications? Yes , she does . 20 Q A Q Now , have her qualifications been enhanced in the last two years or diminished? A Q They ' ve remained the same . Isn ' t it true that by being on the job for two years that they had to have increased? A Not necessarily . Q I see . In your opinion , have they been enhanced in the last two years , her qualifications? A I would say that the experiences that she has had may have expanded her qualifications . That ' s yet to see . Q Have yours been expanded in the last two years? A I can speak for me . Yes . Q A I see . So you ' re just guessing for her? Well , I ' d need to talk with her and find out . Q Now , what is the worst thing that you can say about her administration of PRE? The most negative thing . I ' ll put it that way . What is the most negative thing you can say about her? A Again , based on her evaluations , I do not -- it ' s not a habit I have of criticizing the people who report to me . Q Well , this is a court proceeding and I will ask you this question there so what is the most negative thing that you can say about her qualifications at this time? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 q 8 9 II 10 11 ll 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 21 BY MR . FINLEY : She ' s answered your question . She said she ' s not going to say anything negative about her . BY MR . WALKER : I heard what she said and that ' s a coaching objection . I 'm asking -- BY MR . FINLEY : If you want to ask her another question , ask her another question . BY MR . WALKER : Are you telling her not to answer? BY MR . FINLEY : She ' s already answered . BY MR . WALKER : Are you telling her not to answer? BY MR . FINLEY : She ' s already answered . BY MR . WALKER : Just a moment , Mr . Finley. Are you directing you either direct her not to answer or -- BY MR . FINLEY : You can keep asking the same question . I 'm telling her she can keep giving you the same answer . BY MR . WALKER : Well , you ' re coaching her . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 II 8 9 10 11 I 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 22 BY MR . FINLEY : No , I 'm not . BY MR . WALKER : Q Was she a satisfactory administrator before she was terminated , recommended for termination? A Based on her evaluation , yes . Q Based upon your appraisal of her work . In the intervening time between her evaluat i on and the time she was walked out of PRE , was she a satisfactory employee? A No . Q All right . Now , what was it that made her unsatisfactory? A She did not comply with the chain of command . Q What else? A She was insubordinate . Q What else. A And she superceded authority . Q What else? A She lied . Q What else? What else? A I think that will suffice for now . Q I don ' t want you to suffice for now because there is a later . If you say for now , that means you can come back later . I want it all now . What else can you say? A That is it. Q That is it . All right . Now , first of all, what did she BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 lie about and when did she lie? I 'm sure there are several things so tell me what those lies were . A One , when she said that Yvette Dillingham was asked to accept an 11 month -- it was her -- let me get my thoughts together . Q This ought to be pretty clear . Didn ' t you just give testimony last night regarding this same subject? A That was a closed hearing. 23 Q Well , we ' re entitled to your testimony from there as well . So didn ' t you just give testimony there? A I did not testify to this last night . Q But you were prepared for that testimony , at least by Mr . Heller or by Mr . Finley
weren ' t you? A They had nothing to do with last night ' s hearing. Q All right . At least you ' ve talked with them regarding this matter
haven ' t you? A Q Yes. All right . A No . So that means you ' ve gone over it . Q So tell me what lie she told with respect to Ms . Dillingham . A Number one , regarding the position, the length of the contract from 11 months to 12 months . She implied that Yvette Dillingham accepted the 11 month p osition and that she left the district just to accept the job in Pulaski County . The position BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (5 0 1 ) 53 7 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 u u n 24 was changed to 12 months . She also lied because she is the one who actually recommended that the position be downgraded to 11 months , from 12 months to 11 months . That was her idea . Q Go ahead . What else? A That is it regarding Ms . Dillingham . Q That ' s one lie . What ' s the next lie? You said she lied . Did she tell lies about anybody else other than Dillingham? A When she said that the superintendent threatened her , that was also a lie . Q All right . What else? A That is it . Q I see . Were you present in all the meetings that she had with the superintendent? A No . Q How can you say that - - A She said one was done in my presence and it was not done so I can speak to that one . Q So that ' s the only one that -- A That I can speak of . Q What was the date of that? A I don ' t recall . According to her, it was done sometime in the summer. Q Did you ever hear the superintendent compliment her work performance? A I can't recall a specific incident , no. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Did you ever complement her work performance between June and November or December , 2006? A I can ' t recall a specific incident , no . Q I see . Now , with respect to Ms . Dillingham, did Ms . Beverly Williams participate in those decisions involving Ms . Dillingham? A At the time she was the director of HR so she had some involvement . Were you present during that i nvolvement? No , not with Beverly , no . 25 Q A Q Isn ' t it true that Ms . Beverly Williams was the one who was the architect for the reorganization? A There was a transition team . Q I understand that . But the person who had the day- to-day responsibility for that and who did the work was primarily ~~ Beverly Williams
wasn ' t it? A She did the work of the transition team, yes . Q I see . Now , a recommendation is not a decision
is it? A No . Q So Dr . DeJarnette had no decision- making power about down grading a position
did she? A No . Q I see . So that meant that she made the recommendation . Who made the decision to down grade the position? Who made the decision? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 A I would say the transition team made the recommendation to the board . The board made the final decision because the board approved the organization restructuring . Q Now , we know that basically administrations make decisions and then boards approve , except for last night . Who made the decision to chance Ms . Dillingham ' s position? Who made that decision? You said the transition team? A Made the recommendation to the board . Q Well , who decided to make the recommendation to the board? Was it you and Ms . Beverly Williams? A The person who recommends to the board is the superintendent . Q Well , who made the recommendation to the superintendent? A Q A Q The transition team . Was that you and - The transition team . Who else was on it besides you? A Beverly Williams , Karen DeJarnette , Mark Millholland , Sadie Mitchell . Q Did not you inform all of the people -- and Beverly inform all the people that there had to be departmental cuts in every department? A No . Every department did not receive a cut . Q Oh , we know they didn ' t but was not that the rhetoric and the explanation that was presented publically that every BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (50 1) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 27 department was being cut? A That may have been the rhetoric but what we meant and we did the work , every department was not cut . Q That ' s right . Incidentally , is there any particular reason why it was virtually only black people who were cut? You heard Dr . Mitchell ' s -- A Q Which Mitchell? Board member Mitchell? Board member Mitchell . You heard her statement to the board that , of the positions that were cut , they were 90 percent or more African-American . Did you hear that? A I 'm certain if I were present I heard it . Q I see . Is there any particular reason why the impact of the reorganization fell most heavily upon African-American people at all levels? A I don ' t know of one. Q I see . Now , going back to Dillingham . She left the district just to accept a position in Pulaski County . Is it your position that Dillingham wanted to leave Little Rock? Did you ever talk to Ms . Dillingham? A Yes . Q A Was that when she met with Mr . Hattabaugh? That was on another occasion , yes . Q Did that follow the letter that I had written to Mr . Hattabaugh on her behalf? A I don ' t recall . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Were you aware that I had written a letter to Mr . Hattabaugh regarding this matter? A Yes . Q I see . And isn ' t it true that after that letter her position was restored? A That may have been the course of action . I see . Now , what authority did she supercede? Yvette Dillingham? 28 Q A Q No . No . Dr . DeJarnette . Reason number three was that Dr . DeJarnette superceded authority . I like to hear you talk because you were so forceful in saying that so I ' d like for you to forcefully tell me what authority she superceded . A One , there is a grievance policy that if there is a grievance there is a protocol that should be followed . She did not adhere to that protocol
Two , when she reported to the board regarding the quarterly report , the September '06 quarterly report , instead of taking it to myself , Mr . Hattabaugh , Dr . Brooks , the cabinet and then to the board , that was not followed. Q A What else? Does that have to do with the grievance? I think it led to her - - she would need to answer that . don ' t know . I Q I see . In terms of protocol , is there any writing defining this protocol? A Past practice establishes tha~ protocol . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 29 Q How do you know about past practice since you haven ' t been here? A Well , since I ' ve been here for two years , that has been the practice . Q Do you know of any administrator in the two years that you ' ve been here , other than Dr . DeJarnette , to file a grievance? A Not under my command , no. Q So how could you know what the past practice is for administrators since you ' ve never seen one? A We have a grievance policy and she did not adhere to the policy . Q Well , just tell me , what is the protocol that is set forth in the policy that she failed to adhere to? A That she is to inform -- she is to take it to the supervisor . She did not do that . Q So she didn ' t come and tell you that she was grieving? A She did not come to me and say there was a problem . Q Well , isn ' t it true that before she filed this grievance that you and she had almost had a fight? A She filed the grievance -- Q A Just listen to my question . Okay . Q Isn ' t it true that you moved the gifted and talented people into part of her office space? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A That was done in May , yes . Q I see . And isn ' t it true that that provoked a response that required the intervention of Mr . Hattabaugh? A A conversation was had with Mr . Hattabaugh regarding the move , yes . Q And then after that conversation with Mr . Hattabaugh , you changed your plan to give her further accommodations by way of company in her off i ce? A Again , when gifted and talented was -- Q My question was -- A No . I need to give you some background . Q I don ' t need it . I just want to know . I 'm trying to 30 establish that you had a conflict with her and that it was longstandi ng and pre - existing and that Mr . Hattabaugh intervened and after that there was some temporary resolution . That is fair
isn ' t it? BY MR . FINLEY : Object to the form . BY THE WITNESS : There was a conversation between Dr . DeJarnette and I . Mr . Hattabaugh was engaged in that conversation regarding the move of gifted and talented into her office and then we moved them out of her office into another room . BY MR . WALKER : BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 31 Q I see . Before you sought to put gifted and talented into her office did you discuss that with her? A Yes , and she agreed . Q And then when you sought to implement it , she disagreed? A Yes . Q I see . Isn ' t it true that you and she screamed and yelled at each other in the building? A I had a heated conversation in my office with her, yes . One conversation . Q All right . Okay . Now , is it your position that , had she wanted to grieve that situation , she had to first tell you she was grieving? A She could have taken it to Mr . Hattabaugh and to HR and followed the process . Q All right . Did she not take it to HR? A Not this particular situation, no , she did not . Q A She took the other one to HR
didn ' t she? She did not take it to Mr . Hattabaugh , nor to the superintendent. Q Well , she did take it to HR
didn ' t she? A Q Yes, she did . And when a person has a grievance , aren't they expected to take that to HR? A Q Yes . Now , what's wrong with her going to HR with her grievance? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q It was not a problem with her taking the grievance to HR . Well , what ' s the lack of protocol? 32 A When she superceded the process and took the information to the board , she did not follow the policy . Q Well , the policy says that a grievance , once filed , has to be acted upon within five days
doesn ' t it? A That ' s what the policy says . Q A Q Was her grievance acted upon with five days? That ' s an HR quest i on . Do you not know? I don ' t know . A Again , that is an HR question . Q Well , and it may be . But in order to determine that she didn ' t follow protocol , you have to be aware whether or not the five day rule was complied with
don ' t you? Don ' t you? A Again , the superceded the chain of command . Q In order to make that judgement , you have to be aware of whether the five day rule with respect to grievances was complied with
don ' t you? A Q If that is your inference . All right . Now , was she ever given a hearing on her grievance? A No , because she took it the board . Q I see . How much time passed between the time she filed her grievance and the time she took it to the board? A I do not know . That ' s an HR question. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 33 Q I see . Let ' s go on . Is that the only authority of yours that she superceded? A That I can think of at the moment , yes . Q I see . Now , you say she was insubordinate . To whom was she insubordinate? A To myself , Mr . Hattabaugh and Dr . Brooks when she , again , superceded and went to the board -- Q So , by going to the school board A --immediately without going through the protocol , yes . Q I see . So those are one in the same . Superceded authority and being insubordinate , those are one in the same
aren ' t they? A I guess you could say they ' re parallel . Q A Q Well , if they ' re parallel that means two paths . That lead to the same course . Well , what is the other conduct that constitutes So what - - insubordination? What ' s on that other road? Or isn ' t it the same road? A When she communicated with you when she was asked to communicate with counsel before communicating with the Joshu2 Intervenors . Q A Q All right . Have you read this compliance remedy? Yes , I have . Is there anything in here that prevents her from communicating with Joshua? A And there ' s nothing in there that says she must communicate BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 34 with Joshua either . We must keep you informed . Q So where is it that she violated a rule when she communicated with Joshua? A When she was asked by counsel and the superintendent to -- we all were asked . Q When were you asked not to communicate with Joshua? A Q A Q A That was not what was given to us . You were asked not to communicate with Joshua? No . No . What was the directive? The directive was that if we are asked anything of Joshua , we must first send it to counsel . Q I see. So let me ask you this : School district ' s business is public
isn ' t it? A Q Yes. And the only information regarding school affairs that ' s not public is personnel information
isn ' t that correct? A Q Correct . So what information could she have that she could share with Joshua that was not A It ' s not that we could not share with Joshua but we needed to intervene with counsel before sharing it with Joshua . Q A For what reason? To make certain that we were not , in any way, putting the district at -- maybe you were asking for something that was not BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 -10 11 I 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 a part of FOIA . We don ' t know . That ' s why we have a counsel that gives us guidance . Q Let me ask you this : Do you know Walter Hussman? A I know of him . Q Have you ever met with him? A Yes . Q I see . How many times? A One . Twice , at the most . Q Where at? A In his office . 35 Q Why would you go to Mr . Hussman ' s office? He doesn ' t have anything to do with the school so why would you go to his office? A To have a conversation with him . Q For what? For what? A To meet him . Q You had two meetings so what was the second meeting there for? A A follow - up meeting . Q Oh , you wanted to meet him again? A Yes . Q For what purpose? I 'm sorry . This isn ' t amusing . I apologize . I ' ll take a minute if you want to . I ' d just like to know how Mr . Hussman can have greater access to information in this district when he has no obligation under the court order BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 than Joshua counsel . A I did not provide Mr . Hussman with any information regarding the school district . Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A At least you went to meet with him
right? Yes . You never came to meet with Joshua counsel
did you? Did you invite me to come and meet with you? You ' re always welcome . But you never extended an invitation
he did. Well , that ' s fair . He extended an invitation? Yes . He also offered you some money
didn ' t he? He offered the district money . He did not offer me any money . 36 Q But that was the reason for going to meet with him
wasn ' t it? He was offering money for a program that you wanted to implement? A That the district wanted to implement . Q Well , the district board had not said they were going to implement that program at that time
had it? A No . That ' s why we do research and we gather facts in order to present to the board . Q What was that program? Merit pay? A Q It dealt with the Teacher Challenge Project, yes . I see. So because he was giving you some money , you went BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 .11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 37 to try to find a way to get that money? A No , that ' s not why I went to try and find a way to get the money . He was already giving us the money . We did not need to motivate him to give us the money . Q All right . So what did you do at that meeting? A We talked about the project . Q A Q A Did you talk to him about program evaluation? No . Did you talk with him about unitary status? No . Q Did you talk to him about problems of remediating the student achievement disparities between black and white students? A No . Q A Q All right . Now , did you also meet with Mr . Greenburg? I don ' t know that person . He ' s the editor of the paper , the newspaper editorial section . A No , I ' ve not met him . Q I see . Now , let ' s talk about the other things . She did not comply with what? You said she didn ' t comply with -- what was it she didn ' t comply with? Ms . Springer here reminded me that she wasn ' t supposed to speak with Joshua . Doesn ' t this compliance remedy indicate that the court expected cooperation between the Little Rock School District and Joshua? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q A Q And we have cooperated . Did you ever at any time initiate a meeting with Joshua? No . All right . Did you ever share any writing regarding any subject with Joshua? A What you have requested , we have granted to you . Q I see . Were you aware that we had a duty to be involved , just as ODM did , in what the district was doing? 38 A And we have shared t he information with you . You were part of the evaluation team meetings . Q What did you expect -- how did you interpret the court ' s statement , " I expect Joshua to continue to fulfi ll its traditional role of monitoring LRSD ' s compliance remedy obligations? " What did you understand that to be? A To be a part of the process of the evaluations that were being conducted . That ' s why you ' ve been extended the invitation to be a part of every team meeting that we have had . Q Do you understand monitoring to be at your invitation? Do you understand monitoring to be at your invitation? Is that the way you interpret that? We don ' t monitor unless you invite us? Is that your position? Is that your position? Will you answer that? A Q You can monitor with or without an invitation . I understand but that ' s the abstract theoretical . Did you understand that we had the obligation to monitor whether you BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 invited us or not? A Q A Q You can monitor with or without - - Did you understand that Joshua was obliged to monitor? It ' s in the Remedy . All right . Now , did you ever discuss with anyone the traditional role of Joshua in monitoring LRSD ' s compliance obligations? A Q Define anyone . Anybody , including Mr . Heller . Did you ever discuss that with anybody in the district? We have talked about Joshua , yes . 39 A Q No . Did you ever ascertain what Joshua ' s traditional role was in monitoring? A The conversation has been had , yes . Q When was it had and -- A I don ' t recall . Q --with whom was it had? A Dennis Glascoe , when I first arrived and information regarding the compliance remedy . Only Dennis Glascoe? And other members of the team . Who else? Susie Davis , at that time -- I wanted more Q A Q A Q You know Susie Davis wasn ' t an administrator until you all came? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q A Q She was a supervisor . That ' s right . And so A supervisor is an administrator . Okay . That 's f i ne . On Susie Davis , you all created a special program for her to promote her
didn ' t you? 40 A No , we did not create a special program to promote her , no . Q That ' s another issue . I won ' t get into that one now . She ' s a friend of yours
i sn ' t she? A Q She ' s a colleague . I see . She ' s K- 12 coordinator
is that right? A She ' s a K- 12 director . Q Director . Okay . Now , let ' s go back . You indicate that Dr . DeJarnette was deficient in that she did not comply with something . What was it that she didn ' t comply with , other than what I ' ve already covered? The first thing you said was she didn ' t comply . A It basically deals with -- Q With the chain of command? A Q A Q Yes . All right . You ' ve already addressed that
haven ' t you? Yes . All right . Now , what is the best thing you can say about Dr . DeJarnette? Silence is an answer as well so I ' ll take that . Is that the answer? All right . BY MR . WALKER : BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Let the record reflect -BY MR . FINLEY: Let the record reflect that you gave her about three seconds to think about that -- BY MR . WALKER : If you call that three seconds , I ' l l go -BY MR . FINLEY : --before you interrupted her the first time . BY MR . WALKER: Q Well , what ' s the best thing you can say about Dr . DeJarnette? BY MR . FINLEY : If you want to put it on the clock , we can do that . BY MR . WALKER : The judge is going to put us on the clock so we may as well do that . BY MR . WALKER : 41 Q I 'm still waiting on you to answer . This is the third time I ' ve asked the same question . A Q She takes the initiative . To do what? She takes the initiative to do what? If I walk out this door then I ' ve taken the initiative to leave . I mean , to do what , Doctor? That ' s important . Q Well , because of the prolonged silence this time , may I BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 I 1 - 2 3 4 h ~ 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I 42 just simply say that you don ' t want to comment on that? Is that fair to say? A If you so wish to infer that . Q Well , can you give me some other answer other than that you don ' t wish to comment on that? A You may wish to infer that . Q Thank you . Did you formulate any opinion regarding the work performance of Mr. James Wooleb? A No . Q Did you formulate any opinion regarding the work performance of Mr . Ed Williams? A I worked with Dr . Williams on a couple of projects , yes , he is a very good worker , diligent . Q I see . Is there any particular reason you chose Dr . DeJarnette or the committee chose Dr . DeJarnette over Mr. Ed Williams for the position? He was a competitor for the position
wasn ' t he? A Yes , he also applied for the position . Q I see . And you all selected Dr . DeJarnette over him
right? A The committee did , yes . Q What was it that caused her qualifications -- I guess it ' s a qualification driven decision -- what was it that caused her qualifications to be considered superior to his? A I would have to go back and review exactly what BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 43 Q You don ' t have a recollection of what took place? A I don ' t recall e xactly what gave Dr . DeJarnette , I guess , the place over Dr . Wil l iams . I do not recall . I just know that it was the consensus of the committee that she be recommended for the position . Q Di d you make the decision to summarily remove her from her position? A Did I make the decision? Q A Q A Q A Q made? A Q A Q Yes . No . Did you recommend that that decision be made? I was in collaboration with the decision being made . Did you make the initial recommendation? No . Who made the initial recommendation that that decision be My supervisor . Who is that? Hugh Hattabaugh . What did Mr . Hattabaugh say to you as his rationale for making the decision? A Basically, the points that were brought out in the grievance - - excuse me , not the grievance -- the hearing or the grounds for termination . Q Before you all terminated her and walked her out , did you BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 consult with counsel? A Yes . Q A Q out? Was that Counsel Heller? Yes . Why was it necessary to have security come and walk her A I was not engaged in that activity . Q Did you inform Dr . DeJarnette after the board meeting 44 yesterday or last night that she was not to return to work until next Tuesday? A Q A That is correct . On whose authority did you take this action? My own . Q Is there any regulation that says that you may overrule the board ' s decision? A The board said she was reinstated . The board did not say when she would return to work . Q I see . Do you know what the past practice of the district has been when reinstatement decisions have been made? A No . Q A Q Did it matter to you? Yes, it does matter to me . Why didn ' t you ask somebody before you made the decision to tell her not to come back to work? A If I need to - - if it ' s one that was made out of error then BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 45 it can easily be corrected but I will not be in the office the majority of this week and I need time to make certain that she ' s welcome back and that there ' s a transition between what has occurred during her absence and when she returns . I will not be in the office until Tuesday , hence the decision was made for her to return on Tuesday . Q Why is it necessary for her to be there when she returns , especially in view of the fact that you don ' t hold her in high regard anyway? A Q A Q That ' s your opinion . Didn ' t you just say that? No , I did not say that . Did you not say that she was a liar , she superceded authority and was insubordinate? A Yes , I did say that . Q I see . So doesn ' t that mean that you do not hold her in high regards? A No . You cannot draw that conclusion from those statements . Q Do you know anybody that ' s a liar that you hold in high regard? Excuse me . I apologize . (Off the record) (After the break , the following testimony was given , as follows , to- wit) : BY MR . WALKER: I want to go on record as, again , apologizing to BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 46 Dr . Roberts and to Mr . Heller and to other counsel for my response to her question when I asked the question about a liar . I 'm still of the view that I can ' t understand it but I should not have exhal ed or exploded as I did so I do apo l ogize , for the record . BY MR . WALKER : Q Now , going on . Do you hold Dr . DeJarnette in high regard as a professional? A Regarding implementing the duties and responsibilities outlined in the job description? Q A Q Yes . She ' s able to do the job , yes . All right . Now , do you know the difference between a policy and a regulation in the school district? A Q A it . Q A Yes . Is there a policy IL- R in the district? We have several of them . You need to give me the title of IL- R. Is this the one dealing with the embedding of the comprehensive assessment process? Q A Q A Right . That ' s what I mean by the title . Well , it ' s called IL- R, Comprehensive Assessment -- That ' s what I 'm talking about . This part. That ' s the BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 47 title . Q Is that a board policy or a regulation? A Risa regulation . Q I see . Where is the policy on this subject? A I ' d have to go back and look at the board manual that we have . Q You are aware that there is a policy IL
aren ' t you? A Yes . Q And does the policy mirror IL-R? A It addresses the assessment process . Q Who developed IL-R? A Dr . DeJarnette Q I see . A --was the main author . Q Who developed IL? A That was done before I arrived . I don ' t know . Q Are you familiar with another - - I ' ll show you another one called IL- R. A This was the one prior to my arrival . No , this is the same one , if I 'm not mistaken . It's the same one . Just different font and print . It must be the same one . May I see that form again , please? It should be the same . Just different font. Q Doctor , are you familiar with both of those things? A This is the one that is in our policy book that was reported to the court . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q Which one are we going to be discussing in court? The one that was reported to the court . Which is which? Both of them have the same IL - R 48 designation so which one will be going to court on? A If I 'm not mistaken , there should be a date at the bottom when it was adopted . This is December 16 , 2004 . This one is October 10th, 2002 . So this is the one we ' re using . Q 2004 . Okay . Now , these two things are different
aren ' t they? A Yes . The '04 has been updated . Q The '04 has been updated? A Yes , to address the compliance remedy . Q One of them is called Program Evaluation Agenda and the other is called Comprehensive Program Assessment Process . They have different titles so that suggests that they have two different purposes
doesn ' t it? A A lot of the information that is here is embedded in this so this encompasses this . Q Doctor , with the two different titles , they are different
aren ' t they? A One could infer that just from the titles but then you need to read the content . Q Now, for a thing to be embedded -- how do you know the second one to which you referred, which is the '04 document, is embedded? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 49 A Well , I 'm looking at it and some of the language is the same . Q I understand some of the language is the same . A I didn ' t say they were identical . I said some of the information has been embedded . Q Well , I want you to look at these since I 'm at a loss . The int erior of the documents seem to be materially different . Look at them and tell me what is the same . I don ' t want you to deal with i t superficially with the front page -- A Q That ' s why I 'm reading them both . I 'm looking at - - Look at the third page and you ' ll see material differences . A Well , this gives you an outline to the various ways that we ' re going to perform evaluations , yes . Q A Q Did you - - It provides a checklist . Did you have anything to do with the preparation of either one of these documents? A This was brought to my attention by Dr . DeJarnette when she was doing it before we took it to the board in December so , yes , I did have knowledge and do have knowledge of that , yes . Q What did she tell you when she prepared this document dated December 16 , 2004 entitled Comprehensive Program Assessment Process? A It was to meet the compliance remedy regarding the comprehensive assessment process . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 . 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 50 Q Now , do you have any identified programs that specifically address achievement of black students? Any programs in the district that are specifically designated for that purpose? A Yes . Q A Where are they found? Well , if we look at Smart , Thrive Q Where are they found? Is there a document of where they can be found? A Q A Q No . I see . So we have to search for them somewhere? No , we don ' t have to search for them. Well , let me ask you this : If I wanted to know what those programs were , as a monitor for Joshua , could I get that informaiton without going through Mr . Heller? A No . You would need to go through him . That ' s the process . Q Okay . But Mr . Hussman could get that information without going through Mr . Heller
couldn ' t he? A No . Q A Why couldn ' t he? He has never asked for it . Q Well , but if he asked for it then you ' d give it to him because it's public information
isn ' ~ it? A And we would give it to you after talking with Mr . Heller , just as we have in the past. Q So , as a monitor , I 'm going to be impeded in a way that Mr . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 ' I ' 1 2 ' 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 51 Hussman of the Democrat wouldn ' t? A Well , if he wants it for a newspaper article , we ' d go through the same because we are in court , we ' re being monitored by the court so , yes , I would also run it by Mr . Heller. Q I see . Now , has the compliance remedy been implemented? A Yes . Q What was the day that you can say it was first implemented? A Well , when I came we started implementing it . I 'm certain it began before my arrival but I can only speak to since I ' ve been here . Q When was it completed? A You can ' t complete it because it ' s a comprehensive process . It ' s ongoing. Q I see . Do you think it was completed at the time that the judge entered this order? A Entered the order that we should do the eight two step evaluations? Is that what you ' re talking about? Q Yes . At the time that the judge entered this compliance remedy in 2004 , had it been implemented? A Yes . We were released from certain portions of it except for this last piece , program evaluation . Q Well, that's all we ' re talking about here
isn ' t it? A Okay . At that time then , no . That ' s why we ' re still in court . Q Was it implemented in December of 2004? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q The process had begun . When did you all make a determination that it had been completed or has that determination been made? 52 A We ' re go i ng to court because we feel we have met the spirit of the law . The piece that is ongoing is the comprehensive assessment process and , yes , we have put that in place . essence of that , yes , it ' s completed . So , in Q So you can say that the comprehensive assessment program process A Q A Q A Q Has begun . --is embedded in the fabric of the district? Has begun . No . Has it been embedded in the fabric of the district? We ' re in the process of embedding . All right . But it ' s not been embedded . Let me ask you : Have you had any if you embed something it ' s not -- I use a tick example . It ' s sort of like a tick
isn ' t it? A tick getting into something and staying with that something until something happens . Has this been tick- liked in the district , the process? A I would say that it is in the process . Q That means then that the principals of the district , including the teachers and the administrators would all know what the process is
wouldn ' t they? A They know pieces of the process , yes . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 53 1 Q How do you know that? 2 A Because I facilitate some of the workshops with the 3 principals . 4 Q So you ' ve given the workshops on that? When did you 5 facilitate those workshops? 6 A That ' s ongoing . 7 Q When is the last time you had a workshop? - 8 A This morning . 9 Q With whom? Which principals? -10 A At the assistant principals for instruction .  11 12 Q How many of them were there? A I want to say 12 . 3 Q And how many assistant principals do you have in the 14 district? 15 A Assistant principals for instruction . 16 Q How many assistant principals for instruction do you have 17 in the district? 18 A I want to say maybe nine . Seven . Seven or nine . Around 19 there . I can ' t recall without going through each school . 20 Q Are you saying that you have people who have the title of 21 assistant principal for instruction? 22 A Yes . 23 Q Are they at the high school level? 24 A And middle . Some middle schools. 25 I Q Not all? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 I 24 25 I A No . Q Which schools do not have assistant principals for instruction? A May I give you the list of schools that do? Q Yes . A Forest Heights Middle
Mabelvale Middle
if I 'm not mistaken , I think , Henderson . And please put a question mark there . Who else at the middle school level? At the moment , 54 those are the ones that I can think of . and look at the list in my office . I would need to go back Q Who at the high school level? A McClellan , J .A. Fair , Parkview , Central and Hall . I think the person at Hall is part-time . It ' s an assistant principal but she ' s part-time API and other duties . Q All AP . Who is that person? A I cannot think of her name at the moment . I 'm sorry . Q Is she white? A I think she ' s black . Q What was the fellow teaching who had the catastrophe of killing his child at Hall? A What is the what? Q What did he teach out at Hall? A He taught civics . Q I see . Was that AP civics? A I think it was Pre - AP , if I 'm not mistaken. BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Now, so you have seven middle schools and three of them have assistant principals A Q That I can recall at the moment . I see . So not all of the middle schools have principals for instruction? A That is correct. Q How do you make a judgement on which school will and will not have an assistant principal for instruction? A This was not a directive . This was a recommendation made 55 to the schools to have someone in addition to the principals excuse me -- in addition to the principal to oversee instruction . We gave the principal the authority to select someone if they met the job description . We did put together a job description and they selected someone to oversee that . Q So that means it ' s a teacher and that person is also given the additional title of assistant principal for instruction? A No . This person is an assistant principal . It cannot be a teacher . Q So this person is beyond the numerical standards set out for principals in a school? A No. Q So I take it that each one of these places has an assistant principal for instruction and also one for discipline? A Q They may have one for discipline, yes . Okay. You said that part of Dr . DeJarnette's failings was BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 = 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 56 talking with Ms . Joy Springer? A Repeat that question , please . Q Do you contend that one of Dr . DeJarnette ' s failings wa s her speaking with Ms . Joy Springer? A If she spoke to Ms . Springer without speaking to counsel , yes . Q I see . Do you have evidence that she did that? A No . Q I see . A I do not have any . Q Did you ever ask Dr . DeJarnette if she had done so? A No . Q Did you tell the board last night that she had done so? A That ' s a closed hearing . Q I 'm just asking what you told them . A I will not give an account of the hearing , which was closed , last night . Q What ' s your authority for not answering my question? A If it were open , I would gladly respond to and give you my response to questions that were asked of me last night but this BY MR . WALKER : Mr . Finley , since you ' re handling this , are you instructing her not to answer that? BY THE WITNESS : BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (5 01 ) 537 - 5110 l 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 57 It was closed session so you can direct me either way . BY MR . FINLEY : Why don ' t you just ask her questions other than what you said at the hearing? Why don ' t you just ask her -- so she doesn ' t have to breach that confidence . BY MR . WALKER : I don ' t know that there ' s a confidence . BY MR . FINLEY : Well , if the law allows it to be a closed hearing BY MR . WALKER : Well , a subpoena -- I mean , throughout these proceedings , we ' ve been able to ask what went on in the school hearings plus the hearing transcript is something that is going to be prepared and it becomes a matter of record . BY MR . WALKER : Q Let me ask you : Have you ever told anyone that one of the reasons for recommending her termination was that she spoke with Ms . Joy Springer? A No . Q Have you ever given anyone reasons as to why she was terminated , other than the ones that you ' ve set forth here? A Just the ones that were listed in the termination letter . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 58 Q Now , is it fair to say that you were never in an evaluation team meeting conducted by Dr . DeJarnette regarding program assessment and evaluation where I was present until about five months ago? A No , I think we were in others before then . Q Do you recall approximately when? A We were a part of the ones that we did before . The Compass Learni ng , the Year- Round , all of those evaluat i ons . I 'm certain I attended some of those meetings . I can ' t recall the exact dates . I ' d have to go back and look at my calendar . Q Was Ms . Springer present in any of those meetings before September? A Yes , that I was in attendance , yes . Q Where Dr . DeJarnette was the person conducting the meeting? I 'm not talking about the big meetings were you had programs . I 'm talking about those little work sessions , 12 , 15 , 20 people A Q A The evaluation team meetings? Yes . I ' ve been in meetings with Dr . DeJarnette and Ms . Springer in those meetings before September , yes . Q Did you keep minutes of those meetings? A The team kept minutes and reported -- someone from PRE was given the responsibility of keeping minutes , which were then sent to all members who were present . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 I 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 59 Q Tell me what the problem is with the data warehouse . Is there now a data warehouse in the school district? A Yes . Q When was it completed? A It is still be constructed . You never complete a data warehouse because you keep adding elements . Q When was it substantially completed for present use? A I would say starting around July or August , around there . Q Who is in charge of the data warehouse? A It is housed within computer information systems , which is supervised by Nancy Morgan . Q Does Nancy Morgan report to John Ruffins? A She reports to John Ruffins , yes . Q Has Mr . Ruffins , before November or December , been involved in any of the evaluation meetings that you have held? A I have not seen him at any , no . Q I see . What is Mrs . Morgan ' s responsibility with respect to program assessment and evaluation? A She ' s in charge of housing the data and collecting data when necessary , when needed , in order to fulfill the requirements of a program evaluation . Q What is her title? A I believe she is the program information specialist , I believe . I may have to confirm that . Q Does she report directly to Mr . Ruffins? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q A Q A Q She reports to Mr . Ruffins . And does Mr . Ruffins report directly to you? No , he does not report to me . To whom does he report? Mark Millholland . I see . What is Mr . Millholland ' s role with respect to program evaluation? A He is the chief financial officer in CIS . Computer 60 information systems is an area of responsibility for him so , in essence , that is the connection that he has . Q Has he been to any of the team meetings? A Not where I was present , no . Q I see . Now , is there anything about Ms . Springer ' s affidavit that I showed you that you would disagree with? Take a moment . If so , just draw our attention to it and explain it and then just keep going . A We ' ll speak about Number 5 . Q State your objection or disagreement with that . A She states -- again , this is just being viewed from a document that the district publications , which report activities with respect to professional development revealed no professional development regarding the area of program assessments and evaluations . The document that was asked of us was regarding professional development for the schools , for the teachers, and in that document we list content area of BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5:10 I I I 1 2 I 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 61 professional development . That is not all the professional development that we do in the district . For example , the professional development that was rendered today is not a part of the calendar , if you will , to look at our catalog for this year . The professional development that we did when we went to every school and met with the faculty and provide training regarding how to access CIS , that ' s not a part of the catalog but that is professional development , which is centered around program assessments and evaluations . Q Did anyone from PRE go with you this morning? A No . Q Did anyone from PRE got with you any of these other times? A No. Q Do you explain what PRE is doing when you go to meet with these people? A No. The schools know the role of PRE . Q Well , do they know what the court has ordered? A Yes . And PRE has done some of these workshops . Some of them have been conducted by Dr . Williams , Maurecia and even Karen , herself , in the past . Q Well, let me ask this : Have you shared the court ' s compliance remedy with all participants in the training? A I did not specifically allude to the compliance remedy , no . Q I see. Now , go on down . That's Number 5 . What else do you disagree with? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 I 1 A Number 7 , regarding the data available to PRE . The PRE has 2 been able to access the data needed at any time . I 3 Q Who told you that? 4 A Dr . Williams , himself , as recently as yesterday . 5 Q I see . Before you leave that , with respect to Dr . 6 Williams , what caused you to meet with Dr . Williams yesterday? 7 A We were just having a conversat i on . We had cab i net 8 yesterday . 9 Q He ' s in cabinet now? 10 A Because he ' s the interim director , he was there 11 representing PRE . 12 Q Is that the first cabinet meeting you all have had in like 3 a month? I 'm not talking about executive cabinet . 14 A It has - - I think this was his first meeting to cabinet . 15 Q So you all haven ' t had a cabinet meeting since Dr . 16 DeJarnette was summarily removed? 17 A I cannot recall us having one where he was present . 18 Q Did you have one at all? Whether he was present or not? 19 A I believe we have had -- yes . 20 Q Did he give a report on the status of PRE at the cabinet 21 meeting yesterday? 22 A No , he did not . 23 Q Have you been the one in the past to evaluate his work 24 performance? 25 A No , he does not directly report to me . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 63 Q I see . Have you been the one to approve the evaluation of his work performance or disapprove? A Q A Q I 'm not his supervisor so , no . I see . Now , go on to the next one . Number 8 , I do not understand . All right . Go on to the next one . A I would need to go back and check my calendar but , if I 'm not mistaken , I 'm almost certain that April 18th was not my first time being present at an evaluation team meeting. I would need to go back and verify this information . Again , it has been qualified where Joshua was present so maybe Joshua was not present at the meetings where I was in attendance . I would need to go back and validate that . Q All right . That ' s in 2006? A Q A Q According to this . Did you attend any evaluation team meetings in 2005? Again , I would need to go back to my calendar and check. All right . Did you ever meet with -- did you go to California to meet with Dr . Catterall? A No , I did not . Q A Q A Q Did you ever meet with Dr . Burnhart? Yes . Did you find her to be a qualified person? Yes . Did you find her to be stature in the profession with BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 64 respect to professional evaluations? A School improvement and the use of data , yes . Q I see . Did you ever tell anyone that she was not objective when it came to the use of the data warehouse being discussed at that time? Was it Tetra - Data? A Did I ever tell anyone that? Q A Q A Q A Q A Yes . No . I see . Have you ever heard any comment to that effect? Made where there may be a conflict o f interest? Yes . Yes . Who made that comment? It was made by Mr . Hattabaugh because she ' s on the board . It was stated by Dr . DeJarnette that she ' s on the board of Tetra , hence a conflict . Q Why is it a conflict? Mr . Heller represents the Public Education Foundation and the Little Rock School District . Where ' s the conflict? A He ' s not selling a product . Q Oh , he ' s selling a big product . A Q A Q What is it? Time . The board has already hired him . But they didn ' t hire him for the Public Education BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Foundation
did they? And agree to pay him? BY MR. FINLEY : Do you want her to read it or -BY MR . WALKER : 65 Yeah . I 'm just talking about -- she ' s corning up with these things about Dr . Burnhart . BY MR . WALKER : Q Go ahead . A Again , Number 10 , I would need to go back and look at the minutes. It ' s stated here that the district did not have participates at the '05- '06 meetings . I would need to go back and verify that . Q That ' s fine . Keep going . A Number 11 , the district attempted to diminish the importance of the PRE staff regarding the testing coordinator position . Q Let me ask you : Is it true that that coordinator position is very important? A It is important regarding the test administration . It is not important in terms of the compliance remedy . The compliance remedy deals with program evaluations . The testing coordinator is a part of PRE . It ' s a -- go ahead . Q No , go ahead . A Q I' rn done . I 'm listening . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q A I 'm done . I ' d like for you to finish that . I 'm finished . 66 Q You ' re saying that the testing coordinator position is not integra l to the PRE Department for it to work in embedding the process? A The testing coordi nator oversees , administers the testing program in the district . The ACTAP , the DIBBLES (phonetic sp . ) , those standardized testing measures , tools . If we were to remove testing coordinator from PRE , we would still need to comply with the court remedy by evaluating programs and embedding a comprehensive assessment process . Q Okay . Keep going with the affidavit . BY MR . WALKER : Madam Court Reporter , if you ' ll just put in the record that we ' re still under the headline of Ms . Joy Springer ' s Affidavit so that , if we have to use it at trial , we will be able to do that . BY THE WITNESS : Again , Number 12 , where PRE does not have access to the data warehouse and that PRE members were not sure that they would have liberal access . PRE has the most access to the data warehouse of any department in the district . BY MR . WALKER : BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A not . Q A Q How can you say that? Because they have full access where other departments do Have you discussed that with Dr . DeJarnette? She knows that . How do you know she knows that? 67 A PRE has received the most training of any department in the district regarding the data warehouse . Q A Q A Q A I see . Are you still using Business Objects? Yes . Is that something that you all used in Florida? No . What was the program you used in Florida? We did use Crystal Reports , yes , in Florida as the data display but it was not our data warehouse . Q Did you bring Crystal Reports here with you? A Q No , it was here when we came . I see. Keep going . A Okay . The last one , Number 15 , it appears that Dr . DeJarnette is no longer involved in PRE decisions and regarding the assessments generated by Compass . Q Was she involved in the assessments generated by Compass after July 1, 2006? A The assessments that were done by Compass Learning were done by her department . We did not hire someone else to do it . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 68 Q Did they have the responsibility as a department to provide ongoing formative assessments for students , teachers and administrators? A Repeat the question , please . Q Did PRE have the responsibility for providing formative , ongoing assessments? A Q A Q A Q A No . To provide formative ongoing assessments? Yes . No . Did anyone have that obligation? To provide Yes . That would be my responsibility to ensure that schools have formative ongoing assessments and to help them create them . Q Isn ' t that part of the comprehensive assessment process? A Yes . Q Isn ' t it expected that what you do is integrated into what PRE does? A Q Yes . Has it been done? A Yes . PRE has had involvement with the analysis of the data and how to use the data to inform instruction . Yes , that has been done . Q A Explain to me what is meant by formative assessments . Those are ongoing assessments . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A What is the purpose of a formative assessment? Are you talking about formative assessments used by teachers or formative assessments in terms of an evaluation? Q Let ' s do both of those . A Okay . Formative assessments being used by teachers are 69 assessments that teachers use to assess the progress of students on an ongoing basis . Q What is their source of data? A You use those same assessments to determine what the next assessments would be . Q A Q Well , what is being used in order to make the assessment? What is currently being used? No . No . For these teacher -- what are the data that the teacher uses? A They use classroom data that they collect from their students . They can use the quarterly assessments that we have . They can use the ACTAP . They use multiple assessments to determine . Q I see . Now , are all those things contained in the database? A Some are
some are not . The classroom assessments would not be . Q A Q Why not? Because those are ongoing day- to - day assessments . How can make a comprehensive assessment of a child and a BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 70 child ' s needs without having all the data? A The teacher has that . The teacher uses those pieces of data . They will look today and say that , in terms of Olivine , this is what is I need to do differently tomorrow . The teacher is using that in-time set of data to make decisions regarding the next lesson . Q A Q A How do you monitor that? The principal monitors that . How can the principal monitor that? By classroom walk- through ' s . That ' s why we have coaches in the buildings to help go into classrooms to observe -- so we have some measures in place within the school to determine the use of data . Q Do you have any programs that are being assessed by persons outside the school district? A The evaluations that we are in the process of completing , the four evaluations . Q Anything else? A There is an evaluation that is being done on the Teacher Achievement Challenge Project . Q Who is doing that? A That is being done between a collaboration of PRE and the University of Arkansas at Fayetteville . Q A Is there a written contract to sustain that? I would need to check with Mr. Millholland to see if there BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 is a contract . Q Who entered into that agreement and when? A Again , I would need to check with Mark with that . not involved with the contractual piece of it . Q Was Dr . DeJarnette involved? I do not recall . Was Mr . Ed Williams involved? I do not recall . I was A Q A Q Are the r e any other assessments being undertaken by any other group such as the University of Arkansas? A No . Just internally . I believe the -- and this has been 71 ongoing -- the TAP program has an evaluation that is being conducted by TAP , which is the Milken Family Foundation and they do an evaluation of all schools that are involved in TAP . Q Is that keyed into the comprehensive evaluation and assessment program that Dr . DeJarnette oversees? A That piece is -- I do not believe it is . Yes , it is . We have incorporated that with the Teacher Achievement Project , the project that is being done at Wakefield , Meadowcliff and the other schools along with Stevens and Rockefeller and those are the two that are involved in TAP . Q The Wakefield Project is one financed by Mr . Democrat
isn ' t it? A The Wakefield Project is being funded by the district . The board approved that . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q That ' s the one that was started by Mr . Hussman? That was funded by his -- Did you all make the commitment to Mr . Hussman that if he funded these programs then you all would pick them up? A The district did not make that commitment . Q But you did pick them up
didn ' t you? A The district did. The board approved that . Q Now , the district also has a number of grant programs
doesn ' t it? We have several grants , yes . 72 A Q And the understanding is that those grant programs will be picked up by the district , just like the Hussman program would , upon the grant running out
isn ' t it? A Not necessarily, no . I ' d have to go back and read each grant and each RFP. Q Tell me why it is that you have these grant programs in the southwest schools that when the grants end then the programs end . A For example? Q The National Science Foundation A The National Science Foundation Q 21st Century is one . A 21st Century, we still have in place . Q Who is funding it? A 21st Century is st.ill being funded by the federal BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 1 2 3 4 5 I 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 73 government . Q Doesn ' t that run out this year? A I would need to go back and check . Some schools still have it for another two or three years so I would need to go back and check . Q Well , for the ones where it has run out , has it been p i cked up by the district? A I believe all the schools that were involved in 21st Century , since my arri val , are still involved . Q Have you integrated the program -- first of all , is there any agreement between you and the Public Education Foundation to provide formative assessments? A Between me and -- Q The school district and the Public Education Foundation . A We ' re involved in a partnership with the Public Education Foundation , yes. Q Did you agree that they would be qualified to do formative assessments for the school district? A They are not doing the formative assessments . They are helping with the funding of the formative assessments . The formative assessments are being developed by another entity . Q Who is that entity? A Hot Springs Learning Institute . Q So you have an assessment relationship with the Hot Springs Learning Institute? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 ' ' I 1 2 - 3 4 ' 5 I 6 7 = 8 9 10 ~ 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23  24 25 74 A Yes . Q Is that integrated into what PRE is doing? A They ' re involved in the use of the data , yes . Q Who is in charge of the Hot Springs Learning Institute? A It was recently , I think , extracted from the Hot Springs School District . I believe it was a part incorporated within the Hot Springs School District . Q Who is the person responsible for that? A The superintendent . Q Which superintendent? A I cannot think of his name at the moment . I 'm sorry . He recently retired and resigned to chair that particular institute and I cannot think of his name at the moment . Q So it ' s your understanding that there is no agreement between Little Rock and the Public Education Foundation -- A Excuse me . Repeat that please . Q It ' s your understanding that there is no agreement between Little Rock and the Public Education Foundation to provide formative assessments of programs in the Little Rock School District? A There is a partnership between the Little Rock School District and the Public Education Foundation to have formative assessments be done . The Public Education Foundation does not develop the assessments . We consider it a conduit . Q Do you have anything to do with respect -- is there a BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 ' ' ' 1 2 ' 3 4 ' 5 6 - 7 I 8 9 I 10 11 I 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 75 process for embedding the assessment process into ACSIP? How do you deal with ACSIP in so far as embedding the assessment process into the fabric of the district? A Well , the ACSIP is the vehicle through which we address the improvement of schools so it is a natural connection to the comprehensive assessment process because , in order for us to develop a quality improvement plan , you do need to make certain you ' re looking at every aspect of the school . You need every measure of data in order to make an informed decision as to what to do next and what remedy the deficiencies that are in the school . Q Do either you or Dr . DeJarnette or Dr . Williams or anyone else propose to use ACSIP for embedding the assessment process? A Use ACSIP as the tool for embedding? No . ACSIP can be used as a part of but ACSIP cannot be the only vehicle through which . Q I understand but is ACSIP one of te vehicles that - - A That can be used . Q Have you all agreed that it will be used? A In time, it can be used . It will be . Can be and will be . Q Have you had this discussion with Dr . DeJarnette or Dr . Williams? A Yes . That is why ACSIP was ruled under the supervision of PRE with that intent . Q Which one of them did you discuss this with? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 ' ' ' 1 2 ' 3 4 ' 5 - 6 7 I 8 9 I 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 76 A Dr . DeJarnette . She ' s the director of PRE . Q Well , she was until A Well , this occurred way before she was suspended . Q What dea l ings have you had with the state department regarding the embedding of the evaluation process using ACSIP? A I have not had a conversation with the ADE regarding using ACSIP as the tool for embedding . Again , it is one piece of the comprehensive assessment process . It is not the piece . Q Do you see any role that the state has in embedding the evaluation process into the fabric of the d i strict? A In terms of making certain that we ' re still in compliance with the rules and regs as mandated by the state but it ' s our responsibility to ensure that we have a comprehensive assessment process within our district . Q Of course , they can monitor it
can ' t they? A That is their right . That ' s their responsibility . Q Do they have to go through Mr . Heller? A They oversee the school districts . Q Now , do you disagree with the compliance history that was prepared and presented to the board? I ' ll show you . I think that is Exhibit l . Have you seen that before? A Yes . Q Did you ever prepare a document that supports that? A I did not prepare a document . Q Have you seen a document prepared that contradicts that? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 ' ' 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 77 A Have I seen a document that contradi cts this? Q Yes . A I do not recall at this time . I ' d have to go back and review the documents that I have . Q Do you contradict it? A Yes . Q Tell me how you contradict it . A Well , l et ' s start with Po i nt Number 1 . Again , this goes back to what was stated earlier . The removal of the secretary , the test coordinator assistant , along with the downgrade of the testing coordinator position -- these were all recommendations brought forth by Dr . DeJarnette during the reorganization of the district . No one directed Dr . DeJarnette to do this . She brought these recommendations to the table when a potential program analysis was conducted regarding the ramifications of this and Dr . DeJarnette was asked what would be the implications , what would be the consequences of these positions being removed or downgraded . She gave none . So , yes , I object to Number l . Okay . Number 2 , I believe it was in the Quattlebaum report where Dr . Ross , again , spoke that the data that he received was , I guess , quality in order to do -- that provided him the necessary information to complete the evaluations and he spoke to that in the Quattlebaum Report . Q Did he speak of that to you? A It ' s in the report . No , I did not speak to Dr . Ross , BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 ' ' I 1 2 ' 3 4 ' 5 6 I 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 78 himself . But he has not complained to us or to me regarding the quality of the data that he has received . Q Do you understand the Quattlebaum Report is hearsay? What is your opinion regarding that report? A Since we have completed evaluations from the evaluators , I will conclude that they had quality data to complete the evaluations . Q That ' s on the assumption that they wouldn ' t do an evaluation unless they thought it was quality and correct? A In the evaluation team meetings , we were able to remedy concerns or objections or questions or concerns that they had regarding the data . Q Have you seen reports to the effect that there were as many as 15 , 000 errors in some of the data that was transmitted to Dr . Ross? A No , I did not see those reports . Number 3 , regarding the Crystal Reports . Q Do you dispute that? A (no audible response) Q That ' s fine . You can just tell me the ones you object to . You don ' t have to give an explanation . about it because of time . A Okay . 3F . Q All right . A Of course, 3G. I 'm not going to ask you BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 I 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Okay . A Number 4 . Q You ' ve never seen that document before? A Yes , I ' ve seen it before but every time I read it , I just get , you know . Q You get what? A Just -- Q Goose pimples? A Pardon? Q Goose pimples? A I wouldn ' t say that . - It alarms me . Q Does it make you angry? A Not angry , no . Q Upset? A No . Q Do you agree with Dr . Brooks -- BY MR . FINLEY : Are you going to let her finish it? BY MR . WALKER : Q I ' ll just assume that you disagree with most of it . A With most of it , I do , yes . Q That ' s fine . Do you agree with Dr . Brooks that the reinstatement of Dr . DeJarnette was a very sad day for the Little Rock School District? A Yes . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537-5110 79 ' I 1 2 ' 3 4 5 6 ' 7 I 8 9 I 10 11 ' 12 3 ' 14 I 15 16 I 17 18 19 20 21  22 23  24 25 80 Q Do you agree with Dr . Brooks that if the level of engagement from this community does not increase then you don ' t know what the future will hold for the Little Rock School District? Do you agree with that? A I ' d have to th i nk about that . Q Do you agree with Dr . Brooks that Mr . Daugherty should have someone to run against him for the school board in the next election? A I think during any election tnat -- that is not my opinion . Q Have you heard Dr . Brooks encourage h i s principals to solicit someone to run against Mr . Daughtery? A No , I have not been in the environment where Dr . Brooks has done that . I ' ve not been there when that was done , if it ' s been done , no , not in my presence . Q I see . Now , in all these meetings where you were incidentally , would you find that appropriate for a superintendent to do? Solicit A No , I would not find that to be appropriate , no . Q Would you feel that that would be an appropriate basis for termination of a superintendent? A That ' s for the board to decide . Q Just in your judgement . A That ' s for the board to decide . Q Now , these meetings where you were present , the evaluation team meetings , did you sign in at each of those meetings? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 I I I 1 2 I 3 4 I 5 6 I 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A I would have to go back and look at my data . I 'm pretty good about making certain record it on my calendar . if I 'm attending a meeting , I 81 Q I see . Can you tell me any progress that has been made in remediating or narrowing the achievement gap between black and white students in the Little Rock School District since you ' ve been here with respect to any program or test? A We ' ve not done an evaluat i on regarding the achievement gap with respect to a program so I would need to go back because the evaluations that have been done have not been in regard to closing the achievement gap . It ' s just been on the effect . Q Do you all plan to do that? Any evaluation with respect to the achievement gap being closed? A That is something that we will need to examine in the future but we have not done that . Q But for two years since you have been here , you haven ' t even addressed the subject
is that correct? A We ' ve addressed closing the achievement gap , yes . Every day I get up and -- Q No . In terms of evaluating programs for that purpose . A For the purpose of -- Q Of closing the achievement gap . A We ' ve been addressing programs in terms of increasing the achievement of African- American students , yes . Q Do you know any one particular program that you have BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 I ' I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 82 initiated which has that purpose as its objective? A In increasing the achievement of African-American students? Q Specifically , not generally . A I would say that the Algebra I program that we have put in place , Transition to Advance Mathematics , has been designed to address the needs of urban school children , which are predominantly , in this school district , African- American students . Q When was that put in place? A January of '06 . Q Has that program been assessed or evaluated? A It is not currently being assessed , no , but it will be at the end of this school year because we have not had one full year of implementation . At the conclusion of this school year when we receive the ACTAP data , we will then do an evaluation , a snapshot evaluation of the project . Q Did you work with Mr . Hattabaugh before you came here? A I supported him in terms of his school was one of the schools assigned to the learning community in which I worked . Q Was he also a middle level manager? A He was the principal . Q So that would be a middle level manager? A If you so define it . Q Well , he reported to three or four levels -- A Okay . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 I I ' 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 83 Q Was he principal of a majority black school? A No . Q What is his experience in addressing programs to deal with the achievement gap that exists , you say universally , between African-American and white students? A I will say this : His school was a school that showed increased student achievement for African- American students as well as Caucasians so , I 'm certain that as a leader he was doino some things to improve the learning of students . Q Is there a report which demonstrates or establishes that fact? A If you were to go to the Florida DOE website and track the progress of the high school , that ' s where he was , you will see that , yes . Q I 'm asking if there is a report , an assessment or evaluation report which allows that conclusion? A No . But based on the performance of students as measured by the FCAT , the Florida Comprehensive Assessment Test, the students at Boone High School showed progress . Q That ' s your judgement
right? A No , that ' s based on the report that they gave . Q That who gave? A The Florida DOE . Q Department of Education? A Yes . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q So it ' s a written report? Yes , that you can access their website and check . And how many African-American students did he have in his school? A I would have to go back and look at the numbers . Q Was it an elementary school? A No , it was a high school . Q All right . So you and Mr. Hattabaugh and Dr . Brooks were friends in Florida? A Q A Q We were not friends , no . You were professional acquaintances? We were professional colleagues . And you supported him and he supported Dr . Brooks? A He was one of the principals who reported to Dr . Brooks. Q Do you recall making a statement when you came here that the people in Arkansas were unknowledgeable about education or something to that effect? A No , I 'm sorry , I never made that statement . Q Did you ever hear (inaudible) 84 A No , because when I came here I was very impressed with what was going on in the department so I would not have made that statement . I can only speak for me . BY MR . WALKER : I don ' t have anymore questions . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 I I I 1 2  3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 85 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR . HELLER : Q Concerning Ms . Springer ' s Affidavit , she talks in Paragraph 6 about the use of questionnaires which the court expected . Did we use , LRSD or its outside experts , use questionnaires or surveys in the course of preparing evaluations? A Outside -- repeat that , please . I 'm sorry . Q Did the school district or its outside evaluators use questionnaires or surveys in the course of preparing evaluations? A I believe that the outside evaluators did conduct surveys , yes . Q And then with respect to ACSIP plans , and I think that ' s what Ms . Springer is referring to in Paragraph 8 when she says PRE was assigned responsibility for preparation of school improvement plans . Would those be ACSIP plans? A It would be ACSIP plans . Q Okay . Was the ACSIP plan a legitimate part of PRE ' s responsibilities? A Yes , it is . Q Has it worked to use data to improve the achievement of students in the district? A Yes , it is . Q With respect to programs that Mr . Walker was asking you about at the end of your deposition , are there programs which BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 86 have been evaluated by the district which have been shown by those evaluations to improve the achievement of African- Ameri can students? A Q A Yes . What are some of those programs? The Pre - K literacy , Reading Recovery , Smart , Year- Round . believe all the others were inconclusive . BY MR HELLER : That ' s all I have . FURTHER DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR . WALKER : Q How many children were involved in Year- Round , whatever that means? I ' ll just use your term . What is the population that was involved? A I would need to go back . I do not recall the exact number of students were involved in the intercessions or involved in Year- Round is a school (inaudible) program so I ' d need to go back to the evaluation report . Q There are only several schools that participated in that
isn ' t that fair to say? A There were three schools that participated . Q A Q What were they? Woodruff , Steven , and Mabelvale Elementary Schools . All those together don ' L have more than 1 , 500 students
is that fair to say? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 I I ' 87 ' 1 2 A Yes . Q Were all of them involved in Year- Round? ' 3 A All three schools were involved in Year- Round , yes . 4 Q Were all the students within the school involved in Year- I 5 Round? 6 A I do not believe all the students went to intercession . 7 Q I see . How many were? 8 A Again , I would need to look at the report . 9 Q I see . And how many schools were involved with Reading 10 Recovery? 11 A If I am not mistaken , I think at the time , 10 or 12 12 schools . I don ' t remember . 3 Q Were they all elementary? 14 A Yes , it ' s a program designed for early literacy . 15 Q How many students participated in those programs? 16 A Again , I would need to go back to the report . 17 Q How much disparity was overcome by use of those programs 18 that evaluations reveal? 19 A I recall it was statistically significant . I cannot recall 20 the P value if that ' s what you are asking for or the level of 21 confidence . I would need to go back and look at the report . I 22 do recall that it was statistically significant . 23 Q Was that judgment made before the end of the last school 24 year? 25 A Because the report was conducted , yes , during that time . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 ' ' ' 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 88 Q Did you expand reading and recovery to other schools ba sed on those facts? A Yes , we did add some schools . Q How many schools have been added? A I believe we added two or three schools this year . Q Why didn ' t you add the rest of them? A Cost . Q I see . Do you have any idea how much this DeJarnette proceeding has cost the district? A No , I do not . Q You understand that every time you have both these lawyers involved that it cost about 5 to $8 , 000 a day? A No , I do not know their fees . Q Do you not understand that the Quattlebaum report cost at least $20 , 000? A No . Q What kind of costs would have been involved in expanding the reading recovery program to more schools? Per school , how much more cost would be involved? A Each time you add a reading recovery program, you ' re adding a teacher and that Q I see . That would be $35 , 000 to $50 , 000? A Approximately . Q I see . Do you call pre- K literacy a program or is that a strategy? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 I II I 1 2 3 4 5 ~ 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 89 A The Pre-K literacy program is a program . Q It is a program? A Uh huh . Q How many schools is it in? A All of our pre-K . I Id say a majority of our elementary schools have a pre- K program . Q Are you saying that in the pre- k literacy program that the African- American students did materially better than they did in the ones that did not have a pre-k literacy? A There was not a control study that was done but the ones that were in that we have shown that students who participated in pre-k have been successful after leaving pre- k as well . The studies show that . Q Well , that may be so but in order to determine whether they ' re effective , you have to at least do a control study
don't you? A But you can also look at the effect after they leave the program to see if it has been sustained . Q Well , that ' s an opinion . Can you tell me any research source that agrees with your conclusion? A Well, apparently, the evaluators did . They reported it . Q I understand they reported it . Can you tell me any source that said that? A Not at this time . Q I see. Do you like Arkansas? BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537 - 5110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q A I 'm enjoying my stay here . Thank you . You ' re welcome . WHEREUPON , the deposition concluded at 4 : 45 p .m., January 9th , 2007 . BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501) 537 - 5110 90 91 C E R T I F I C A T E STATE OF ARKANSAS )ss COUNTY OF LONOKE I , KELLY S . ADCOCK , Certified Court Reporter and Notary Public , do hereby certify that the facts stated by me in the caption on the foregoing proceedings are true
and that the foregoing proceedings were recorded verbatim through the use of the Stenomask and thereafter transcribed by me or under my direct supervision to the best of my ability , taken at the time and place set out on the caption hereto . I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither counsel for , related to , nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which these proceedings were taken
and further , that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties hereto , nor financially interested, or otherwise , in the outcome of this action . WITNESS MY HAND AND SEAL this 14th day of January , 2007 . KELL y' S :(
:: ADCOCK ~ Certified Court Reporter My Commission Expires : #643 04 / 15/14 BUSHMAN COURT REPORTING (501 ) 537-5110 ,._ :\, .... -. ,..:. . .. :,., '  .!
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This project was supported in part by a Digitizing Hidden Special Collections and Archives project grant from The Andrew W. Mellon Foundation and Council on Library and Information Resources.
   

   

  


   

  

 


   

   

 


   

  

 

<dcterms_creator>Bushman Court Reporting</dcterms_creator>